Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Should formatting apply to word at cursor position or only characters typed after formatting was invoked
Great to see that this will change in the future! Many biologists and chemists will be happy about this :-) I also wouldn't mind having it as an option, although that might clutter up the options dialog. But there is still the possibility to have an "Advanced options" tab for experienced users ... On 8.12.2012 21:06, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: Le 08/12/2012 20:28, Mirek M. a écrit : We've discused this on today's design IRC meeting, and we agreed that, when within a word, subscript and superscript should not apply to the whole word, but other formatting commands should, as it's usual for a user to want to italicize or underline a whole word, but uncommon for a whole word to be a subscript or a superscript. Would this subscript/superscript behaviour be optional? I've seen technical docs using superscript for whole words. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Should formatting apply to word at cursor position or only characters typed after formatting was invoked
Hei everyone! A while ago I filed a bug report and I had to realize that I am looking at a design choice here. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46517 Basically, when the cursor resides in a word (after first or in front of the last character of the word), all formats apply to the whole word. I never realized this, until I started using subscript and superscript a lot in my writing (for chemical names like CO2). Is it feasible to change this behavior to formats only being applied to newly typed characters? It seems strange to me, that the whole word is affected, since it is something from the past, in contrast to typing new characters in the future after invoking formatting (like super-/subscript). If a whole word has to be formatted, it can easily be marked by double clicking it. This also makes more sense to me, since I thereby actively tell LibreOffice, that I want the whole word to be affected. For clarification, I am arguing for the logic behind the formatting behavior, not for a reduction in mouse clicks to perform a certain task. This also seems to be the default behavior in MS Office 2010. Only newly typed characters are affected by formatting in Word and Excel. (And yes, I deserve a beating for using MS Office in my favor, even though I shout out my animosity against it whenever I can ;-) Greetings, Daniel M ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] simplifying the border width settings
Michael are you seriously trying to say that you think that the current border UI ... is "clean" or intuitive for the user and we shouldn't think about improving that ? No sorry, that should be changed. And I agree that it is a good idea to make things look similar to MSO, _if_ it has to be re-worked anyways _and_ the MSO version looks alright. Personally, I never figured out these double line styles anyways. I always assumed that double line styles should be proportional. E.g. "60 % black, 20 % white, 20 % black", instead of "2 pt black, X pt white, 1 pt black", with X being "width - 3 pt". But I don't like to be restricted as in MSO and not being able to set the line width myself. If the double line styles were proportional and the line width could be given in the unit, that was set in options (e.g. cm or mm instead of pt), I would be happier than with what MSO has to offer. I'd even like to have customizable line styles, where I can set the percentages (double lines, dotted lines) myself, but that's daydreaming ... Cedric Mostly because users wants their documents to render the same way in all office suites. It's hard and when we already have things to get some bits working, it wouldn't make sense to destroy it completely. Well, right now, more complicated documents don't render at all. Couldn't we have the simple line styles from MSO and make them selectable as easily as in MSO, but still let people the freedom to customize them? Daniel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] simplifying the border width settings
Hei hei! Why do we "need to keep being compatible" with Microsoft Office at all? 1) Users who switch from Microsoft Office do that for a reason and they should expect some differences! 2) Document compatibility is a great idea, but until Microsoft Office import works well enough, there is no point in cluttering up LibreOffice with "legacy options". Anything more complicated than "Hello world" gets messed up after importing it from MSO into LibreOffice. As far as I know, there is a project working on Microsoft Office import for OpenOffice, but I am pretty sure that will take a while. Until then, most people are probably happy to get to see the textual content of an MSO document. For everything else there is PDF (or even a parallel MSO installation, if you are working in a bigger company). How about cleaning up the LibreOffice interface, before introducing additional elements? There are still smaller inconsistencies like the table border button, which is only a pull down menu without a separate pull down menu arrow and an "apply current setting" button next to each other. Or the two different types of rectangle and circle shapes in Calc and Writer ... Even though many of the other irregularities have been cleaned up already. Sorry for these blunt words, but I don't think that tiptoeing around MS is such a good idea. Neither to attract new users or please companies that are under Microsoft's spell, nor to satisfy old LibreOffice/OpenOffice users. Greetings, Daniel M On 19.11.2012 9:23, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote:> On Sun, 2012-11-18 at 17:44 +0100, Michael Stahl wrote: >>> I propose to simplify this and limit the values to HAIRLINE, THIN, >>> MEDIUM and THICK with sensible values and map the old values to them. >>> This should not be such a big problem because until 3.6 at least the >>> UI behaved in a similar way due to a bug. >> >> i don't think that is enough - users may want to import existing >> documents from OOo or MS Office and create new borders in them that >> match the existing ones in the document; so it would probably be a good >> idea to offer those widths which these applications can easily set in >> the UI, which is a bit more than 3 of each style. > > Restricting sounds good, but pay attention with Word and Excel: they > have different sets of possible borders & width (Word had quite a lot > more) and as Michael wrote it, we need to keep being compatible with > both of them (and legacy borders) which is quite a mess. > > -- > Cedric > > ___ > Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list > Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise > ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Advice required on auto text resize (Impress)
Hei hei! I agree with Mirek and think "Autofit" should be removed or optional (with the default being "off"). And I don't think we have to take exporting presentations to PPTX into consideration. The export to Microsoft Office is so bad (yes I know, it's Microsoft's fault!) that text size is the least problem here. "Autofit" is nice for beginners, but I wouldn't want to end up with a presentation with different text size on each slide! That just looks horribly unprofessional. And fiddling around with content to fit on a slide is _not_ "a massive pain in the backside", it's a part of the job of making a presentation. The presenter has to think about what to present actively! It's the user who has to do the work, not some "LibreOffice magic" ... From own experience, LibreOffice documents have to be opened in LibreOffice. The export to Microsoft Office does not work for any kind of document and whenever I had to deliver something in Microsoft format, I had to re-format everything or even re-create the document (Calc -> Excel anyone? ;-). When I had to give smaller presentations, I exported my work to PDF. For bigger presentations I had to work with Powerpoint from the very beginning. This is the real world and there is nothing LibreOffice can change about it. And again, why does LibreOffice have to behave like Microsoft Office? If people don't have the money for Microsoft Office, they should be happy to get a well functioning free Office package! If they have Microsoft Office, but are not satisfied, they obviously want to have something different! Sorry for being so emotional, I don't want to offend anyone! It's just that I am having a really bad time at work, with my bosses getting angry at me every time they see me using LibreOffice. And whenever one comes to a conference, there is only Microsoft Office ... and if you try to install a portable version of LibreOffice, you are the devil himself! Again, LibreOffice should go its own way and be proud of it! There are so many things that were copied from Microsoft, and they are actually what makes Microsoft Office so annoying! Get rid of "automatic" annoyances and give a damn about interoperability, at least as long as the export to Microsoft formats does not work 110 % well! Greetings, Daniel M On 8.10.2012 11:10, Michael Meeks wrote: On Sun, 2012-10-07 at 11:07 +0200, Mirek M. wrote: I think this autofit feature is very disturbing if you are not aware of it. From my point of view it should be removed because if what you are writing does not fit in the available room, you should write less words or add room (split the text on another So - this is a nice idea. However - manually doing that is a massive pain in the backside for the (non expert) slide creator. Of course, ideally people should not be trying to cram their text onto slides - but reality suggests they do. People tend to manually fiddle / re-word their slides to cram text in - leaving not a pixel left for another character ;-) Then - they save that as .pptx import it on a different machine, with different fonts and if the lines are re-wrapped - that inevitably pushes their later bullets off the bottom of the slide, and then they get angry [ seeing it often only as they present ]. That IMHO is a -massive- UX drop-off; far worse than some transient confusion about what font size to show in the toolbar while editing. Having said that, I'd personally prefer to have some relative font sizing shown there generally based on the style - but ... I'm mad like that ;-) Also, if we have to keep autofit, it should be disabled for an object if the user overwrites the autofit size using the font size picker. Autofit is an interop feature; IMHO we have to keep it - if only to interoperate with those who turned it on in MS Office. IMHO it should also be the default ~everywhere so we improve interoperability generally - but ... ;-> if it behaves strangely, we should fix that. ATB, Michael. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] page borders (bug 52327)
Hei hei! For the first time since I work with LibreOffice, I tried to make Calc print what I want, instead of what Calc wants ... and the result is not very encouraging. I have a document with 4 columns and 20 rows, that are smaller than my paper format A4. I'd like Calc to scale those cells to paper width, without me having to care about their actual size. Playing with "Print Ranges" and "Scaling mode" could not get me there. The only thing that seemed to work was "Reduce/enlarge printout" and figuring out the right "Scaling factor" manually. But there are two problems with this: 1) Scaling affects _everything_ and can lead to cell boarders disappearing (not on the screen but on the printout) 2) Manual adjustments are time consuming, especially for multiple documents with multiple sheets So far, I only see "page borders" as the solution. The user has to format the content accordingly. And that is only possible when the page borders are _always_ visible. Btw., in the page preview, the page format can be reached by clicking on a "Format Page" button, or right click "Page Layout ...". Is there a reason why the same thing has two different names? Greetings nag-niel M ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Any thoughts on fdo#44941?
Hei Cedric! Good to hear about the pop-up having disappeared (I am using 3.5.6 due to a memory bug). A temporary header/footer after a double click should not change the layout at all. If the user really decides to enter text, the temporary header/footer could remain a foreground layer, overlapping and covering the rest of the document. Changing of the layout would be triggered only after the user clicks somewhere outside the header/footer, signalling that a header/footer should be inserted. Without text having been entered, the header/footer layer would just disappear, as if nothing had happened. In my opinion, we could just leave header/footer creation the good old LibreOffice way. I am not overly fond of the idea of "copying MS Office to attract new users" and I don't think that actually works out anyways. But that's another story ... Greetings, Daniel M On 3.9.2012 17:43, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote: Hi Daniel, On Mon, 2012-09-03 at 10:55 +0200, Daniel Mania wrote: A double click sounds like an OK idea to me, if the header/footer is only created after text has been written to the header/footer (similar to newly created textboxes that disappear when no text was entered and cursor focus is put somewhere outside the textbox). At least it is better than the "mouse over popup thing" that got introduced. BTW the "mouse over popup thing" is dead in master and probably about to be dead in 3.6 too (see my previous mail on that topic here and on the qa list). Creating a temporary header/footer isn't a good thing to do as it implies relayouting the whole document, and checking all possible shortcuts to eventually drop it (e.g. we should probably drop it if the mouse clicks somewhere else or if the cursor is moved to outside the header/footer) -- Cedric ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] page borders (bug 52327)
Hei hei! I agree that page borders not being shown is a bug. It is weird that one has to click on page preview and go back to editing mode, in order to see them. In my opinion, it would be very practical to always have them displayed! Printing sheets and getting Calc to print "the desired amount of content" is extremely difficult. Page borders help a lot in that respect. Just recently, I found that Calc offers a scaling mode that fits the print range to a certain number of pages. But this option is also difficult to control and it makes printing different sheets with different layout an extremely tedious job. To make things worse, this dialog is hidden in the page formatting dialog instead of being placed in the print dialog. All in all, I think that constantly visible page borders would improve Calc a lot. > But WONTFIX sound always harsh for the reporter of the bug and > might discourage him to help in LibreOffice, so I would not use it. Yes, I agree on that too. Why are bug submitters not being involved in discussions? It is very frustrating to submit a bug report and (in some cases) spend a lot of time to reproduce the bug or make documentation like a picture, only for someone else to tell you to "shut up". Even if something is not a bug, but an enhancement, a report should not be closed that quickly. Sorry, that had to be said ... Greetings, Daniel M On 3.9.2012 23:06, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi Christina, Christina Roßmanith schrieb: Hi Regina, to make sure we are talking about the same "page borders": there are slightly thicker lines in normal view indicating what is printed on a page. Ah, that are no "page borders", but that are the lines for "Automatik page break". Therefore I was so confused. The color of this lines can be set in Tools > Options > LibreOffice > Appearance, section Spreadsheet. But they appear only after "print preview" for a sheet was executed. Yes, I can confirm, that they are not shown initially. After switching to "Page Break Preview" (in menu View) and back to "Normal" they are shown. Calling "Page preview" and closing will do the same, and calling page layout dialog and finish with OK or calling printing dialog as well. If the bug reporter confirmes that "print preview" works for him I'll close the bug with "NOTABUG" - any objections? It is a bug (or a missing feature), that they are not shown immediately. But that behavior is not new. It is there at least since OOo1.1.5. So "NOTABUG" is not really true. Another question is, whether you want to work on it. Because a lot of actions trigger this lines, the "bug" is not severe. In OOo-times there had been the large dump "OOo later" for such reports. You can confirm the issue and set it to a low importance, or immediately close it with WONTFIX. But WONTFIX sound always harsh for the reporter of the bug and might discourage him to help in LibreOffice, so I would not use it. Kind regards Regina ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Any thoughts on fdo#44941?
Hei hei! A double click sounds like an OK idea to me, if the header/footer is only created after text has been written to the header/footer (similar to newly created textboxes that disappear when no text was entered and cursor focus is put somewhere outside the textbox). At least it is better than the "mouse over popup thing" that got introduced. By the way, are there any opinions on my last UI request (panel toggle enhancement)? I don't want to open a bug report for that ... or should I? Greetings, Daniel M PS: Why do so many people (users _and_ developers) bring up Microsoft as their reasoning for how things should be handled/done? Good things should be considered independently from their source, but LibreOffice is _not_ a copy of Microsoft Office! A lot of people around me are working with MS Office daily and they still ask me how to do stuff. For those people, LibreOffice is no different than MS office! And power users should be able to figure out LibreOffice themselves ... On 3.9.2012 10:09, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote: Hi people, That bug (fdo#44941) is purely is new UI idea. What do you think about this idea to add a new header/footer by double-clicking on it? I could implement that pretty quickly, but I'ld prefer to have your thoughts on it as we already have UI for this. -- Cedric ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Change LibreOffice's behavior of how formatting is applied
Your reasoning makes sense and I realize that I might have to live with that :-) In normal writing, you will not encounter any problems with the current formatting behavior. But in scientific writing (biology, chemistry, ...) there are a lot of sub- and superscripts and that can be troublesome. I find myself undoing a formatting, marking a single character and re-applying the formatting on only that character quite often. Also, marking a whole word can be quickly done by double clicking it. So the current behavior is not really a time saver. As I said, your reasoning is sound. And if I am the only one who does not like the current formatting behavior ... Greetings, Daniel M On 7.8.2012 9:58, Mirek M. wrote: > The reasoning behind this behavior is that the user isn't likely to > start typing in the middle of a word, and therefore it makes more sense > to format the word the cursor is in instead of formatting only the > letters typed inside the word. Honestly, I can't think of a use case > where the user would want to type inside a word he typed before, but > using different formatting from the rest of the word. > The current behavior makes it easier to format words -- instead of > painstakingly selecting a word, the user can simply click anywhere > inside that word to apply some formatting. > This may not sound like a huge time-saver, but if one does all his > formatting in one go, perhaps to highlight some keywords, it makes > things much more efficient. On 7.8.2012 9:58, Mirek M. wrote: On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Daniel Mania mailto:daniel.ma...@umb.no>> wrote: Hei hei! Some time ago I filed a bug report (ID 46517) about LibreOffice's subscript/superscript behavior. This report got closed and I would like to discuss it here instead and also expand it to formatting in general. Currently, if the user activates any formatting (e.g. "Text bold"), the outcome depends on the cursor position: a) If the cursor is "inside" a word (behind first character and in front of last character), the whole word will be formatted (even though it is unmarked). b) If the cursor is anywhere else, only newly typed characters will be formatted. This is another example of how LibreOffice forces the user to think about the outcome of an action depending on the current situation. And you might know by now that I "kind of dislike" this. ;-) Now I would like to know if I am "a special case", or if we should change the formatting behavior to: "After a formatting was invoked, only affect newly typed characters at the cursor position." Of course this only applies if no characters were marked before. "bfoman" stated that the current behavior is the default in MS Word 2010, but in MS Word 2007, formatting works like I would expect (and proposed) it. An old version of LibreOffice (3.3.4) already shows that behavior and I do not know since when it exists. This might be a "big" change if it is an ancient way to handle formatting. On the other side it might be something that would not matter to 99.9 % of the users, but changing it would please the remaining 0.1 %. The reasoning behind this behavior is that the user isn't likely to start typing in the middle of a word, and therefore it makes more sense to format the word the cursor is in instead of formatting only the letters typed inside the word. Honestly, I can't think of a use case where the user would want to type inside a word he typed before, but using different formatting from the rest of the word. The current behavior makes it easier to format words -- instead of painstakingly selecting a word, the user can simply click anywhere inside that word to apply some formatting. This may not sound like a huge time-saver, but if one does all his formatting in one go, perhaps to highlight some keywords, it makes things much more efficient. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Change LibreOffice's behavior of how formatting is applied
Hei hei! Some time ago I filed a bug report (ID 46517) about LibreOffice's subscript/superscript behavior. This report got closed and I would like to discuss it here instead and also expand it to formatting in general. Currently, if the user activates any formatting (e.g. "Text bold"), the outcome depends on the cursor position: a) If the cursor is "inside" a word (behind first character and in front of last character), the whole word will be formatted (even though it is unmarked). b) If the cursor is anywhere else, only newly typed characters will be formatted. This is another example of how LibreOffice forces the user to think about the outcome of an action depending on the current situation. And you might know by now that I "kind of dislike" this. ;-) Now I would like to know if I am "a special case", or if we should change the formatting behavior to: "After a formatting was invoked, only affect newly typed characters at the cursor position." Of course this only applies if no characters were marked before. "bfoman" stated that the current behavior is the default in MS Word 2010, but in MS Word 2007, formatting works like I would expect (and proposed) it. An old version of LibreOffice (3.3.4) already shows that behavior and I do not know since when it exists. This might be a "big" change if it is an ancient way to handle formatting. On the other side it might be something that would not matter to 99.9 % of the users, but changing it would please the remaining 0.1 %. Greetings, Daniel M ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] fix bug 51231, but...
> But (don't cast stones at me) could we revert this feature? These new features are annoying me too. In Writer we now have Footer and Header pop-ups and maybe other pop-ups as well. The ones in Writer are not nearly as problematic as the ones in Impress, but they don't work that well either (the "control button" that appears on "mouse over top of document" is located outside the header area, and moving the mouse to the button leads to leaving that area quite often, which results in that damn button to disappear). These pop-ups/overlays can be helpful, when they are working as expected and when much thought has been put into what they do and how they react. But in most cases, they distract me and they break my work-flow. A rather good example for such a pop-up can be found in Microsoft Office (2010?), where a "context menu box" is shown after text got pasted into a document. This implementation is robust and works well 99 % of the time. But I feel that with the 1 % of the time when it doesn't work, I loose more in total than I gain from those "flawless 99 %". I can only speak for myself here, and I know that I am offending some programmers, who invested a lot of work in those features, but "intelligent software" is _always_ plain wrong, wrong and wrong and "keep it simple" is the best approach to usability. The user should not have to anticipate what the software might or might not do depending on different situations! Greetings, Daniel M From: libreoffice-ux-advise-bounces+daniel.mania=umb...@lists.freedesktop.org [libreoffice-ux-advise-bounces+daniel.mania=umb...@lists.freedesktop.org] on behalf of Ivan Timofeev [timofeev@gmail.com] Sent: 29 July 2012 13:20 To: libo-dev Cc: libo-ux-advise; Jan Holesovsky Subject: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] fix bug 51231, but... Hi, this patch fixes https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51231 "UI: Slide thumbnail overlay "start presentation, disable slide, copy slide" position depends on slides pane scroll slider position and mouse way" where "depends on slides pane scroll slider position" is a bug, but "and mouse way" is a feature: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=4866b20ec6205b04cd21077fd00d68c4d4bb2c1b But (don't cast stones at me) could we revert this feature? IMHO it only creates the nervous tension: "oh, where this black thing would appear now?". My usual mouse movements are sweeping, and if I entered a (quite small) slide preview at the bottom, it does not mean that I will stop and click immediately at the bottom. If you disagree with me and want this feature staying in - just push my patch to master and 3-6, it fixes a MAB. :) Cheers, Ivan ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] paste special in LibO calc
Hei! Kees 538 wrote (01-03-12 11:14) > When you use paste special in calc all options (accept value) are enabled. > You have to disable all options you don't need and enable the value option > (if you need this one) > ... In version 3.6 we got a very nice "Paste Only". It can paste "Text", Number" and "Formula", but it is missing "Value" (= "Text" + "Number"). The addition of this would render "Paste Special" obsolete for many use-cases. Greetings, Daniel M From: libreoffice-ux-advise-bounces+daniel.mania=umb...@lists.freedesktop.org [libreoffice-ux-advise-bounces+daniel.mania=umb...@lists.freedesktop.org] on behalf of Cor Nouws [oo...@nouenoff.nl] Sent: 26 July 2012 17:33 To: Kees 538; libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org Subject: Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] paste special in LibO calc Hi Kees, Kees 538 wrote (01-03-12 11:14) > I have remark about paste special in calc. > When you use paste special in calc all options (accept value) are enabled. > You have to disable all options you don't need and enable the value > option (if you need this one) > Won't it be easier if all options where disabled so you just enable the > options you need? Could you pls be a bit more specific in the behaviour you would like to see? Currently, when I hit Ctrl-Shft-V, the checkbox All has the focus, so hitting the space bar is enough to deselect that. Still for me some 6 others remain checked, where probably Text and Numbers are chosen most. So it could be an idea to have those checke by default? Ideas? Cheers, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Another cry for unified behaviour in all documents
Hello everybody! As far as I understood, I am not the only one here who would like all document types to behave the same. It is just too much work for anyone to do anything about it. Well, I have to prepare a talk right now and working with Impress is ... not easy. And again the main problem (in my opinion) is that Impress documents behave completely different from Writer documents, even though both work with the concept of styles. In general I would describe Impress' behaviour as "restricting as a straightjacket". In Writer one has to edit a style to apply changes to all text that is formatted in that style. In Impress one can change formatting of some text and this will change the connected style automatically. It took some time to figure that out and understand why the formatting dialog in Impress is missing an "Apply" button. This is only one example of many but I would like to bring up the restriction to predefined styles in Impress as well. Why is the user restricted to 14 styles in 4 categories and not given the opportunity to create new styles as in Writer or Calc documents? I think it is these kind of inconsistencies that scare away new users and I still remember that, when I started using OpenOffice (RIP), I was very frustrated and felt incredibly stupid because I was not able to accomplish even the simplest of tasks. In the case of Impress I went so far as to create talks in Writer and export them to PDF for presentation! Is it not worth it starting to do something about this? I feel bad suggesting this since I do not know how to program and cannot help much, but I feel that LibreOffice would gain a lot from a "unified document bahaviour", maybe even more than from new and fancy features! Greetings, DM PS: Is there a way to customize LibreOffice by editing configuration files (ini or xml)? I could help doing at least that and maybe some other simple tasks. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] New "Clone cells" option (for "Paste Only") in Calc
Hello everyone! There is one option missing in Calc, and that is "Clone". By that I mean pasting a 1:1 copy without changing formulas or anything, so that the newly pasted cells will have the exact same formulas and output as the source cells, independent of the new location. A "clone" function would be valuable to use different formulas on the same source cells. E.g. one could calculate the average of some data, copy those "average cells" to the next row and replace "AVERAGE" with "STDEV" to have standard deviation without much additional work. These "easy" tasks can become very difficult when the source data is spread throughout a sheet or even worse different sheets. With joy I saw the new "Paste Only" in Calc, which is a very useful shortcut to "Paste Special". "Clone cells" would also be a nice addition here. Greetings, DM ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] A sheet by default
I don't see a big problem with three initial sheets, but I agree that starting with only one is the better option here. It is especially confusing when users don't rename the default sheets so that there is no indication at all that they contain data. Or could we have an indicator (colored bar or something) in the sheet tab to visualize empty sheets and ones that contain data? Greetings, DM On 21.5.2012 11:55, Mirek M. wrote: 2012/5/21 Jean-Francois Nifenecker mailto:jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net>> Le 21/05/2012 11:33, Mirek M. a écrit : Hi everyone, I'm wondering -- is there a good reason for creating a spreadsheet with three sheets by default instead of with one sheet? I feel that creating three sheets by default unnecessarily increases the document size and confuses readers of the document, as they have to look through all three sheets to see if there is additional content -- and they often don't anymore, as they're used to those two sheets being empty. That means they're potentially missing out on data should the creator have chosen to actually use those two additional sheets. Could we make the default one sheet? As for the file size, here's a test I've just done (Lib0 3.3.4): Open LibO Calc. Enter "A" in Sheet1.A1, then Save as-is (3 default sheets), the file size is 7,413 B Delete the 2 unused sheets, then save. Now the file size is 7,398 B -> is a 15 B difference such a big deal? No, not really. But it is unnecessary. As for the users' confusion: yes, it might be. I personally have experience with this -- someone sent me a spreadsheet which did use the second sheet and I was not aware of it, which of course lead to some confusion and frustration. OTOH, I think it might also help users understand a spreadsheet can hold more than one sheet. I disagree. A user should realize that just by looking at the bar with sheets and seeing the plus button next to "Sheet 1". Browsers open with one tab by default -- users don't have a problem understanding that you can have several tabs. And I definitely think browsers should NOT open with three tabs by default. Or take a look at Impress -- it opens with one slide by default, and people have no problem understanding that they can create another slide, despite the fact that the "+" button is quite far from the slide pane. As a result, I'd stay with the current 3 default sheets scheme. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Full customization of LibreOffice
OK, once again I underestimated the effort needed ... I would be happy to start a whiteboard together with someone who actually has some programming skills, if the list agrees. DM From: libreoffice-ux-advise-bounces+daniel.mania=umb...@lists.freedesktop.org [libreoffice-ux-advise-bounces+daniel.mania=umb...@lists.freedesktop.org] on behalf of Stefan Knorr (Astron) [heinzless...@googlemail.com] Sent: 06 May 2012 18:08 To: Jean-Francois Nifenecker Cc: libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org Subject: Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Full customization of LibreOffice Hello Jean-Francois, Daniel, > IMO, this is all about a styles expansion. Could be very useful, yes, but > would require much coding I guess, contrary to what you're thinking. Yes, it would be a lot of coding, and it would also require a lot of new UI. If you are interested in this, I would recommend to come to our design list [1] and perhaps start a Whiteboard on how to realise your vision. Astron. [1] des...@global.libreoffice.org , see also: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Full customization of LibreOffice
Here is another suggestion ... this time less difficult to implement. One thing that has been bothering me for some time now is that LibreOffice is not giving me enough freedom to customize everything I want to. Users can create their own document templates, but we cannot create templates for charts or other objects. Defaults can be customized in LibreOffice, but the possibilities are very limited. The only thing I could find was options for charts and here only the colour table can be modified. But what about all the other options? Why not set the line width to 0.05 cm by default, instead of 0.08 cm? Why not set XY-plots with points and lines as default? Why not set a certain colour for rectangles or ellipses as default? Another thing is a general lack of options for several features. A current issue of mine in Calc is "paste copied cells by pressing enter" which is probably helpful for some people, but incredibly annoying for people that use enter to edit cells. Shouldn't there be an option to turn this "paste-behaviour" on and off? I only mentioned things that concern me personally, but the list of options could be expanded to make everyone happy. The current list of options should be more extensive but a lot of options could be hidden in an "advanced" dialog to not scare away users who don't need all customizations. Greetings, DM PS: If anyone knows how to change some of the mentioned things without programming knowledge, please tell me! Editing XML or similar files to change LibreOffice's default behaviour is not the best solution but I'd prefer it over nothing ... and I'd even dive into slightly more difficult things if pointed into the right direction ... ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Unified behaviour of all LibreOffice applications
> This is really a complex problem needing a lot of code refactoring: it's > not only a design problem. I thought so and unfortunately I cannot help in any way :-( My programming skills end with LibreOffice macros and AutoIt scripts. > Writer tables are different from Calc ones, from a user POV I'm not sure > it would be good to unify this... and once again, this would require > important and complex code refactoring. Well, if real Calc table could be integrated in Writer, one could still use them to just show data. But one could also use all of Calc's possibilities and I think they would be easier to format. I am always struggling with formatting the size of Writer tables. But Calc tables as "objects" in a Writer ducument are even worse. And yes, I knew that LibreOffice does not consist of separate applications. Still, the different "documents" behave like that and that is what counts for the user. Even though a "unification" would involve a huge effort, it would also be a possibility to wipe out a lot of bugs and inconsistencies without additional work. Greetings, DM From: libreoffice-ux-advise-bounces+daniel.mania=umb...@lists.freedesktop.org [libreoffice-ux-advise-bounces+daniel.mania=umb...@lists.freedesktop.org] on behalf of Cedric Bosdonnat [cbosdon...@suse.com] Sent: 02 May 2012 10:19 To: Daniel Mania Cc: LibreOffice-UX Subject: Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Unified behaviour of all LibreOffice applications On Mon, 2012-04-30 at 13:37 +0200, Daniel Mania wrote: > Here are some examples of what I mean with "unified behaviour": > > - Rotation of images is possible in in Draw but not in Writer This is really a complex problem needing a lot of code refactoring: it's not only a design problem. > - Some objects can only be grouped in Draw but not in Writer. > > - Tables in Writer are clumsy and should be replaced with embedded Calc > tables (this can be done manually but then Writer changes the size of > embedded table every now and then and thereby renders them ugly, which > is probably a bug) Writer tables are different from Calc ones, from a user POV I'm not sure it would be good to unify this... and once again, this would require important and complex code refactoring. Of course, feel free to give us a friendly helping hand to change that code ;) -- Cedric ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Unified behaviour of all LibreOffice applications
Hello everyone!
I have been reading some discussions on this mailing list and I would
like to make a proposal that is probably extremely difficult to set into
action:
The behaviour of all LibreOffice applications should be similar.
This actually was a bug report some time ago, but bugs.freedesktop.org
is certainly the wrong place for it ...
Here are some examples of what I mean with "unified behaviour":
- Rotation of images is possible in in Draw but not in Writer
- Editing grouped objects in Draw is done (elegantly!) by double
clicking the group and exiting the group by double clicking anywhere
outside of the group. In writer one has to enter a group via the context
menu and exits the group via a single click which often happens by accident.
- Impress has its own special way to apply styles and breaks with Writer
and Calc in that respect. This is very difficult to comprehend and leads
to frustration for beginners.
- Some objects can only be grouped in Draw but not in Writer.
- Tables in Writer are clumsy and should be replaced with embedded Calc
tables (this can be done manually but then Writer changes the size of
embedded table every now and then and thereby renders them ugly, which
is probably a bug)
In general, all LibreOffice applications should have the same set of
functions (image rotation, grouping, ...) and should be usable in the
same or similar way (application of styles, ...). This could be
accomplished by using a "shared LibreOffice core" for these functions
and interaction of the different applications with each other
("embedded" Calc spread sheet in Writer, ...).
Right now it looks like the different applications are being developed
in different directions and thereby breaking the "Office concept".
DM
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