Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Le 29/05/2013 23:35, Cor Nouws a écrit : Rafael Dominguez wrote (20-05-13 04:05) I did the rest of them already, ill push it tomorrow and ill send you a msg after, so you can test it. Hi Rafael, Just to make sure that I didn't miss anything: did you already have a change to push the work? As a reminder, the implementation started by Raphael seems : - complicated to code (OS specific) - difficult to maintain (because of OS specific) - not the best UX If it's still not implemented, why not switch to another solution: -- after the OpenFile picker, just add a dialog to ask user what he wants to do (open template or create a new doc from template). This solution is : - much easier to implement (I suppose it should be few lines of code) - easy to maintain (std VCL code) - a good UX (confirmed by Cedric and Mirek) Cheers, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Le 20/05/2013 02:28, Cor Nouws a écrit : Cor Nouws wrote (20-05-13 01:39) only managed to add the checkbox option to the gtk+, kde4 and native dialogs, still pending the windows one and mac, but i dont have access to a mac, so its hard to work on that one. Joren - also in cc here - does have and does some useful patches now and then. No idea if he would be able and willing... just posting the hint ;) Another idea - by far the simplest, but less elegant - When a user opens a template, give a popup ( :D ) You choose a template Do you want a new file from that template or edit the template ? [[ New document ]] [ Edit template ] New document = default Ideas? Well, that was already proposed 2 times in this thread ! ;-) First by Raphael on 09/04/2013, then myself on 11/05/2013. Mirek and Cedric acknowledged that it should be the right way to do. The remaining point seems to be how to ask user : - a modal dialog ? - an infobar ? is 'infobar' something like that : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Infobar ? so, IMHO, I think that an infobar is too late in the opening process : - the infobar is shown above the newly created window (the opened template or the newly created file) - if a click in a button of infobar closes the current window and open another, it may disturb the user - is it technically ok to close the current window and open another from an infobar ? It seems to me that a simple dialog before opening template/creating new file is technically much simpler and more obvious for users. Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Le 10/05/2013 17:06, Cor Nouws a écrit : Hi all, Worked myself through the list with template related issues and - apart from all great progress - found a few that are still open. And with 4.1 approaching rapidly... 60589 - [Template manager]: Can not copy styles between different files and templates I would say that the only one being able to work on that is Mirek : as he strongly designed the new Template Manager, he must know how to do that. *why is Mirek silent for such a long time on this subject ?* As I really don't understand how the new Template Manager was designed, I absolutely have no idea how to correct that bug in the new Template Manager. My only proposal is based on something existing : (I just saw it has already been proposed by Raphael on 09/04/2013) in the Styles Formatting window, there are buttons on top. In Writer, there is even a popup with an action Load Styles... : It opens a dialog that has nearly what you need : - the list of categories of templates, then the list of templates - it can copy some styles from the selected template to the current document. My idea is to simply extend it by integrating code from old template manager (v3.6). As those dialogs seems similar, I suppose it should not require a complete rewrite. Then, maybe add this action (Load Styles...) in Styles Formatting for Calc, Impress and Draw. If you think it might be a solution, then I can make a more precise proposal. 61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that is not in the repository, is lacking I saw a comment with the proposal : when a user does Open from the File menu and selects a template, then LO should open the template ; instead of creating a new file from the template. It seems to be a coherent behavior : the user selects the command open so LO must open. When the user selects new from template, then LO must create a new file from a template. If you really want to prevent modification of bad file, maybe add an dialog asking confirmation : Do you really want to open the template 'test.ott' ? or create a new file from this template ? and related 59427 - [Template Manager] low discoverability of new template manager - we could use File → Organize templates menu I agree Cheers, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Impress : general feed back
Hi, While working on entrance animations, I also ran an simple test of Impress and found bizarre behaviors : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements What do you think of my Proposal for urgent bugs ? Can it be implemented easily ? (others proposal short-term and mid-term are still in brainstorm state) Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi, Le 01/05/2013 18:33, Mirek M. a écrit : On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Michel Renon michel.re...@free.fr mailto:michel.re...@free.fr wrote: [...] Is it ok to create a new panel (in the tasks panel) ? Aren't entrance animations just a subset of custom animations? What about other kinds of animations, like exit animations? Don't they deserve equal treatment? I don't think so. Entrance animation are at the core of slideshows : - if you show all lines at once, your audience will spend a lot of time reading instead of listening to you - if you show line by line, you keep control on the slideshow, you can let them imagine the next line will be a surprise... - it's quite boring when a slide content doesn't change for a long time So, yes, entrance animation are very important, while other are nearly optional. And I'm not the only one : look at Powerpoint 2003 : it behaves just like that : - with one or two click (in the ribbon, top-left : very important button), you can define the default entrance animation - for all other animations, you use the standard Animation panel It's the shower faucet principle : http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/robinet_douche.jpg Except for fewer clicks, what would the new panel bring? it brings : - a clear, obvious and consistent UX - very easy to discover : the title of the panel is explicit - very easy to use : only 3 popups with immediate change - a shortcut to the most used functionality Aren't all of the options it contains already available via Effect Options? Yes, but hidden in an terrible UI and behind a lot of clicks, icons and dialogs. My proposal tries to optimize the definition of entrance animation of the main textfield. If the user wants to make something special, he just has to use the Custom Animation as today. I would rather opt for redesigning the current custom animation panel than adding a new panel, especially as the task pane is overpopulated as is. the Custom Animation panel really needs enhancements. But this is different from my proposal : whatever redesign you do for the Custom Animation, it will never be as useful as my proposal. And, as said before, entrance animation are at the core : optimizing them will change life of 100% of Impress users. While other animation are not at the core : today, it's not worth working on other animations, let's focus on more important UI/UX tasks (ex : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements). On a more general point of view, I'm a simple user of Impress. Handling entrance animation is so complex, buggy that I avoided using it for years. And some friends refuse to use it because they find it unusable : simple tasks are complex to perform (ex entrance animations), and buggy, buggy. Given that bad UI feedback, I find it much more important to work/focus on basic/most used functionalities than working on adding unnecessary functionalities (ex : adding 3D Ultra advanced OpenGL transitions or simplifying entrance animation ?) My idea is First let's make LibreOffice be really easy to use for basic work. Then, we'll take care of more advanced functionalities. Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi Janit, Le 01/05/2013 18:16, Janit Anjaria a écrit : Hey Michel! It is great that you have added something to the wiki page.I will have a look at it,and it would be great if you can provide me with guidance on the UI part so i can give the best possible result to the community under Thorsten's help and your help as well on the UI Part. As the UX is not defined/validated, it may be difficult for me to give precise clues. But here are some general suggestions : - you can look at how LibreOffice handles the Tasks Panel : - how to add a panel - how to hide/disable a panel - how to handle widgets in a panel (create, handle events...) - for the Custom Animation panel - how does it behaves internally ? ie write documentation about it. I wrote nothing about it in my basic feedback [1], but it seems to me that there are some bugs (ex : some bizarre feedback when you change order of elements). You may learn *a lot* and it'll be essential for every future change. Years ago, I had to start a project with a framework (MacApp2). I spent severals days reading code from the framework to understand the general architecture. It was an incredible way of learning : when I started coding, most of basic ideas where already integrated. Cheers, Michel [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Le 03/05/2013 12:51, Michel Renon a écrit : Hi Janit, [...] But here are some general suggestions : I forgot : - you can look at how LibreOffice handles smartTags : - how to create them - how to handle events - can we add some widgets ? (ie a popup in a smarttag ?) Cheers, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Articles about LibreOffice design process
Hi, I inform you that I wrote a list of 9 articles about LibreOffice, specially about the design process. The first starts here : http://mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-1-the-context/ If you have very few time, you can just go directly to last, the conclusion. There is a very-condensed version of my feedback and proposals : http://mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-libre-office-design-process-part-9-conclusion/ As there is also some informations for TDF, and as they participate to design mailing-list, I send a copy to Charles and Italo. I hope they'll find my feedback interesting. Thanks for reading, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi Thorsten, Janit, Le 22/03/2013 09:13, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : [...] - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on objects in slides ? ex : add some small widget beside (or inside?) an object to indicate a status or to show a popup to activate some changes. Or have a special border. These widgets/borders would be shown via a menu command, or via a mouse hover, only while designing the slide. Yes, that is possible - there's a concept called SmartTag in Impress, that is e.g. used to implement this four-way icon at the presentation placeholder objects ('insert table/chart/picture/movie'), or for editing motion path animations. So the base technology for that is there. very good news ! - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on every single line/ some lines of a textfield ? It's a detailed version of the previous point : can a line in a textfield have some widget ? or be drawn with some special border ? In general yes, though slightly more involved. great ! - today, the 'animation objects' are linked to object in slides, but is the reverse also true ? ie if user modify a slide object, can the animation object be updated automatically ? Not sure I get the idea - are you referring to changes e.g. to master pages, that then translate to all slides using it (that is one aspect of the original question / task Janit was looking into)? No, I was referring to the edition of a slide, when an animation is already defined on the lines of text : if you change the content of the text, the animation is not updated. From a user pov, it's really annoying. From a technical pov, is it possible to implement it ? (I suppose it has nothing to do with UX, only code, and just define rules to handle different use cases) [...] With all your first answers, I started to brainstorm some ideas. I'll begin to mockup them in few days. I'll create a new page on the wiki. Thanks Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi Thorsten, Janit, In order to work on that problem, I would like to have some technical advise about what can be implemented or not. (just to avoid wasting time by designing things that can't be implemented) Well this mail is mostly for Thorsten as you're the official mentor of Impress/Draw. - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on objects in slides ? ex : add some small widget beside (or inside?) an object to indicate a status or to show a popup to activate some changes. Or have a special border. These widgets/borders would be shown via a menu command, or via a mouse hover, only while designing the slide. Here is an example of such widgets in a RAD tool to build forms. On the left, the standard view, on the right, the widgets indicate the tab order of 3 textfields in form : http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/text_order_form.png - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on every single line/ some lines of a textfield ? It's a detailed version of the previous point : can a line in a textfield have some widget ? or be drawn with some special border ? - today, the 'animation objects' are linked to object in slides, but is the reverse also true ? ie if user modify a slide object, can the animation object be updated automatically ? The answers may have 4 values : -1- it can be implemented immediately, no changes required in VCL -2- it can be implemented after some work in VCL (and other) ; the average delay is few weeks ( 2 months) of devs -3- it can be implemented after a long work in VCL (and other) ; the average delay is 2 months -4- it can't be implemented, can't be done in VCL well, if you find a fifth answer, tell me ! And two open questions : - In this whole subject, what objects are linked to ODF format ? (ie : what can be changed without changing the file format) - what are the technical limitations related to animations in Impress ? Thanks, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Deleting multiple styles at once
Hi, I hope it's not too late to answer ! Le 08/02/2013 18:06, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit : Hi, [...] So, as you might have guessed ;) my proposal is to get rid of any message box for that matter. While I agree in the general principle (if it's undoable, don't ask confirmation), there is something different here : when you undo the deletion of a style, the style is not associated anymore to the text. So it's a partial undo (just tested in LO 3.5 3.6) [1]. In this case, the user must be informed that the text will definitely loose his style (and can't be undone). Or if devs can re-associate style to the text, then no need for confirmation. But it should be much much more complicated ! Michel [1] - create text - add some attributes (font, color) - create new style test1 from selected text - save document - delete style test1 -- the text become standard - undo -- the style test1 is back in the style list -- the text is still standard ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries
Hi all, Le 13/01/2013 22:58, Cor Nouws a écrit : Hi all, My sincere apologies if I missed a discussion about this (but in any case my mail box does not show it). We had the menu: File Templates Organise Address Book Source Save Edit Now we have: File Save As Template File New Template What is wrong with the old menu? It is easier to find. It is consistent with what people know. And File New Template for editing / organising is not so logic with the rest of the menu File New That was also my first impression while testing LO 4 beta2 Maybe the new menu could be: File Templates Organise / Edit Save Address Book Source Ideas? Seems ok for me : similar and simpler than current version ; no changes for users, easy for dev. Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template Manager: UI to reset the default template
Le 09/01/2013 16:49, Cedric Bosdonnat a écrit : On Wed, 2013-01-09 at 14:10 +0100, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote: On Wed, 2013-01-09 at 11:51 +0100, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote: Hi guys, There is one thing really missing in the new template manager: we have no way to reset the default template after having set it. Any idea where / how to integrate that? I just saw the Blank template item idea for each category in the bugs page... that will do the trick I think. Hum, yet another reply to myself... the Gear popup menu has the action to reset the default template. what is the current implementation (lo 4.0) : - is there a default .ott, .otc, otd, otp ? - or is it harcoded ? I realize there is no feed-back to inform user which template is default. Can we add some visual feed-back ? for ex a special background or border, an icon, or bold text ? And if the default template is hardcoded, can we add some information text to say The default Writer/Calc/Impress/Draw template is defined by LO If you can create a blank template (eg corresponding to LO default), the action in gear menu seems useless. Just a reflexion : wouldn't it be interesting to show all default template to user ? A list with 4 templates : 1 for Writer, 1 for Calc, 1 for Impress, 1 for Draw Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] LATE FEATURE: Personas in LibreOffice
Hi all, Le 08/01/2013 11:07, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi Cor, Cor Nouws píše v Po 07. 01. 2013 v 22:56 +0100: Idea looks great to me and is an invitement for futher enhancements in the future :-) I gues the code in a daily from 2012-12-28 (1) is not yet complet? I see the option page, but choosing an own background image does not work (file picker handling is broken) and a choosen persona is not shown... That's too old, you need a build post 2012-01-04. The 'own background' is not working even there, and will be removed from 4.0 if the Persona part is approved (otherwise both will go). I tested on build 2013-01-08 on Ubuntu 12.04 and nothing works :-( Btw, it's a nice feature ! As it's a user's choice, we have not to worry about readability of toobars. May i make some suggestions on the pref panel ? - why not keep the own image to select an image in local hd ? - if i understand ok (images and personas are exclusive), we can have the choices : *Toolbar background* O Default O Image Select Image... O Firefox PersonaSelect Persona... (I renamed own image to Image) - would it be possible to add a preview of image/persona ? and a status text if there is an error (error loading image, error loading persona, timeout...). From a user pov, it's an expected feed-back before validating. - to be complete, LO should keep the path of image/url of persona, and show it below the preview ; and the url should be entered automatically in the persona dialog. So my complete suggestion in ascii : *Toolbar background* O Default O Image Select Image... O Firefox PersonaSelect Persona... [Status text, only if error] +---+ | | | preview | | | | | +---+ path/url : xx Thanks, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Advice required on auto text resize (Impress)
Hi, Le 13/10/2012 23:58, Jean-Baptiste Faure a écrit : Hi, Le 08/10/2012 15:23, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : Hi there, [...] Thank you very much for these explanations about autofit feature. Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: I think this autofit feature is very disturbing if you are not aware of it. Granted - so how to best display that? PowerPoint has a little icon next to the textboxes that have this enabled. I think it is a good idea. Perhaps this icon should have two states, one which indicates that this property is enabled and another when autofit is in action (text size is actually reduced) with a tooltip saying that autofit is enabled and what is the actual font size. As the problem seems to be feedback for user, why not indicate the real size in the font size list ? For example, if the official size is 48 and the real size is 32, the font size list would show : 48 (32) From a technical point of view, it might be simpler to implement than adding an icon near the textbox. Here is the proposal : http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_:_autofit_text Thanks, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Killed the ButtonBar in slide sorter
Hi Jon, Le 26/09/2012 16:34, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi Michel, Michel Renon píše v St 26. 09. 2012 v 13:45 +0200: UI decisions should be taken based on facts, analysis, polls, statistics. So this is the statistics I have at hand: Several people angry about a feature, and nobody praising it. Now, you are the first one, so please tell me how much do you actually use Impress. If you do, it is really hard to believe that you haven't got bitten by this yet. Also, I would be most interested to hear how many times have you actually used the buttons. I use Impress very few, but this buttonBar has never disturbed me. I essentially use the 'duplicate' button of this toolbar. I can list other parts of Impress that are design nightmare ! (I have a list of bugs of LO and I will create bug reports asap). I asked other people (from my LUG) and they had no problem with the buttonbar, or even with the concept of popup objects. They even find the context menu (with right-click) so '90s (while still very useful) and tend to prefer the popup objects, because they become used to that with current web UI. We cannot measure everything, otherwise we wouldn't get much far because all that time spent talking, and considering, and writing specifications. Much better approach is to try what seems good, and if it does not work, ie. we get complaints constantly, not only a few during a transition period, change it. This way of doing is possible with a small user base (I did it twelve years ago while writing big and important software for Airbus : we used a kind of agile process (idea, code, feed-back and loop). Early users (1-4 people) were also testers and we created a wonderful software, still used and appreciated! (10-50 current users) However, with LO's user base, it's impossible : most users want something that just work out-of-the-box, they are not testers and don't want to be considered like that : they have to produce documents, mostly in professional context, that's all. LO must be stable, efficient and not change UI (that disturb users) every release. You can imagine an equivalence with car industry : drivers won't accept a new car that has defaults or that is not complete or that has something for testing. And look at the huge problem that Apple has to face with his incomplete Maps app. Tim Cook had to apologize and explicitly said to use others software (from concurrents!). It's not a design problem, but it shows that a large user base can't be considered as testers ; they accept only a finished product (already tested). Please note that Renaissance is 3-4 years old project. A good idea will never be obsolete ;-) Renaissance was a project, not an idea ;-) Who cares where ideas come from ? Henri Poincaré (a french mathematician) solve a problem while jumping in a bus, Archimedes is famous for taking a bath, Isaac Newton and an apple. (ok, Newton's apple is a legend...) [...] As a general point of view on this subject, I would say that it shows several problems in the design team (that's why I'm CCing to design list) : - there is a lack of long-term vision for LO's UI/UX : a vision, a roadmap, with tenets. Some big users (administrations, companies...) need that kind of information so that they can plan training, migration [1]. For example : - should we use or avoid appearing / disappearing UI elements ? - should we use floating and/or docked panels ? When a decision is made, it should not change for several years (3-5) Alex / Astron / Mirek / others [in alphabetical order :-)] all have common vision, and it shows with 3.6 - it is the most beautiful open source office suite around. How comes you have not noticed that? ;-) I was talking about something precise : roadmap with practical guidelines : - a roadmap defines where are we going to ? - a roadmap defines what is the schedule ? - practical guideline defines what should you do/don't do ? how to react in every kind of situation ? In the context of design, it would mean : - how will the LO's UI be in the future ? - what is the schedule of the incremental/big changes ? (in X months, the panel Y will be changed, etc) - guideline are for devs / ui people (like Human Interface Guideline, for iOS or Android or MS or Gnome or KDE) Today, the design principles are too abstract to be considered as guidelines. And I repeat that such a schedule is important for companies and administration, so that they can plan one or two years ahead (training /migration) - a developer may decide to make big UI changes, just because he talked with few users : it's a complete by-pass of the existing UI process (whiteboards, proposals, discussions, vote) ; it may also bring some big inconsistencies [2] Imagine a new volunteer who contributed code to improve something, do you want to say him/her that OK, but you haven't followed the PROCESS, return to the drawing board.? yes ! because : - we all make
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Killed the ButtonBar in slide sorter
Hi Cor, Jan, Le 25/09/12 16:00, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : [...] Therefore the good OpenOffice.org developers and people conducted a large project some years ago, Renaissance. Of course the toolbar is one of the changes the was a result from that. I guess all the work was done, because many obvious actions are not easy enough accessible for Joe-average. And that these were only the first steps in a route to make Impress (more) more contemporary. The little pop-ups fit more in modern UI (-expectations) I guess then context menu's - let alone short-cuts and pull down menus... I don't think I agree with you here. The touch-based devices need to have everything shown, nothing appearing based on a presence of a mouse pointer; It's a technical fact : touch interfaces have no 'hover' event. But look at what's happening with Nautilus : devs are making big changes to prepare for touch interface. The mistake is that they change *current* desktop version so that *future* versions may work on tablets. Since last year, users just can see Nautilus has less and less behaviors. Devs just say we know what's good for you : we'll bring them back later for touch. The result is that the Nautilus project is forked and will be replaced very soon. We have to realize what for next 2 years (and more...), most LO users will still use a computer (desktop or laptop) to edit. Your modification will be useful for the tablet version of LO, but maybe not for the desktop version. and it seems to me as a good trend in general. This is a personal and subjective opinion. UI decisions should be taken based on facts, analysis, polls, statistics. I also made that mistake : few months ago, I made a proposal for another Insert menu, based on most used items, well most items I used and supposed others also used. In the design list, I had some immediate and strict feed-back : don't suppose, provide real and pertinent usage values otherwise propose something different. They were right. Please note that Renaissance is 3-4 years old project. A good idea will never be obsolete ;-) I have heard complaints about this Button bar from several people, and no 'oh, I love these appearing buttons' - so I believe we are fine. The same with the appearing / disappearing header / footer controls - lots of complaints that it is too much disruptive, so I believe that not using any controls that appear after a timeout only supports that the above mentioned trend is Good :-) I may be the first, but let me tell you that I find the new header/footer control *very useful* ! The complaints I heard about OOo/LO were all about the old look/design. The header/footer control, while not perfect, brings something new that's really welcomed. And I wish we can use that idea for table edition and much more. Why not allow users to enable/disable such appearing-controls by preferences ? Everybody should be happy : - beginners and average users won't see changes between versions - power users may choose what they prefer As a general point of view on this subject, I would say that it shows several problems in the design team (that's why I'm CCing to design list) : - there is a lack of long-term vision for LO's UI/UX : a vision, a roadmap, with tenets. Some big users (administrations, companies...) need that kind of information so that they can plan training, migration [1]. For example : - should we use or avoid appearing / disappearing UI elements ? - should we use floating and/or docked panels ? When a decision is made, it should not change for several years (3-5) - a developer may decide to make big UI changes, just because he talked with few users : it's a complete by-pass of the existing UI process (whiteboards, proposals, discussions, vote) ; it may also bring some big inconsistencies [2] - most important, it may changes/revert recent modifications -- users will be disturbed by those UI flip/flop (for example see previous changes between Rythmbox and Banshee in Ubuntu) (please see absolutely no offense to you Jan, I'm just trying to analyze the situation ; and the context of my feedback is that I have not enough time to work, propose on the UI/UX team, so it's just a little reflexion/suggestion ; but as a simple user, I would be very disturbed by such changes) Thanks, Michel [1] And in France, last week we had an important announce about OSS and the administration : they'll study different projects and choose some of them. Nothing is decided between LO/OOo : Each project's team has to prove his project is stable, well organized, well structured and has a clear roadmap. [2] I just tried Thunderbird 18 (aurora channel) and the main window has no more menu bar ! Menus are now in a popup button on the right. But the problem is that the compose window still has the standard menu bar : inconsistency, users will be disturbed. ___