Re: libreplanet-discuss Digest, Vol 132, Issue 4
On Sunday, April 4, 2021, Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> wrote: Luke, you say “the” purpose of a code of conduct is to destroy communities. i apologise: to clarify: the intent may be to create a safe and welcoming environment. (i did not say having NO code is recommended, again, sorry if i gave that impression) the *effect* on the other hand of toxic CoCs is to blast and smash people psychologically, at the very first moment that they enter the environment, with such a god-awful list that the only thing it achieves is to create an undercurrent of fear and unease. everyone treads on eggshells, interacting with others in constant fear that their actions and words are going to be misunderstood. you may have heard the story that when the EU mandated that anyone on scaffolding had to be harnessed in to rails: the result was that there were *more accidents and deaths*. it is simply a fact of psychology that if you focus on fear and discrimination, you get fear and discrimination. *whatever* you focus your attention on, that is what you get. I say, there are many purposes- and one of them is to prevent harassment and harm. great. then that's *all* that needs to be said! in fact, even the word "harassment" may be left out because it is redundant. if someone is "harassed", in 100% of cases it may categorically be deduced that they have been "harmed", yes? therefore why state it twice?? there is however one thing missing from that innocuously simple declaration: a corresponding *positive* statement. a positive statement encourages positive behaviour. paradoxically: a negative statement *actually encourages negative behaviour* because that's what's on everyone's minds. don't think of a pink elephant. i would like to see a code that very simply invites people to: a) do good, and b) never do harm. this basically assumes AND TRUSTS, fundamentally, that people know the difference between what is right and what is wrong. the interesting thing is that by them engaging with a community that has such a simple compact it gives you, the other participants, the right - the RIGHT - as well as the RESPONSIBILITY - to explain it to people for whom, it turns out, do not actually know. (that right and resonsibility extends to ALL participants. categorically including those subjected *to* "harm". and all those *witnessing* such "harm" occurring) all of that WITHOUT poisoning the entire community with some proscriptive behaviours that literally terrorise and poison all participants including those who dreamed up the toxic list. l. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: [2]https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 References 1. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 2. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: easy CoC solution: permanently end in-person conference
You have a good point here, we need to find a way to reduce our carbon footprint, attend these conferences but with the benefits that come with that. I think this is perfectly do-able, and something that the fsf should look in to, after all it would show we are forward thinking. At a local level we can branch off to work on local issues, after watching and learning form each other, share local experiences etc. I joined the DebianAcademy team back in November and am also working on trying to set up a study support group for those who are distance learning https://personaljournal.ca/studysupportgroup/ So like you suggest here, we need to perhaps decentralised and still get the benefits of working and being able to talk and learn from each other. LibrePlanet also proves we can do this with free and open source software, DebConf is also virtual this year, so again they are doing the same. Paul On 04/04/2021 16:27, Aaron Wolf wrote: FWIW, among other family issues, I have myself felt uncomfortable with the prospect of flying to conferences for exactly this reason. The stats on the environmental significance of flying are overwhelming. I saw something like a flight within the U.S. 48-states being comparable to 8 months of average driving. I also heard a good argument that the *enemies* of a healthy, free, sustainable society (such as the developers of the worst and most abusive proprietary software and also the people behind the most polluting industries) are continuing to fly all over and do everything they can to retain *their* solidarity and businesses. I do not believe in fighting fire with fire. I do not believe two wrongs make a right. But I do believe that we should take a consequentialist or utilitarian approach that is thinking in the long-term. If (and maybe only if) activists flying to get together is part of what makes enough difference to a movement that it really has more impact, it will be worth it. If 500 plane trips happen and the connections they support lead to stripping away the power of the oligarchs who block society from becoming truly sustainable, then it could be worth it. But maybe a small number of people can do global-reach in-person conferences that bring together effectively representatives of more localized conferences that don't involve flying. Here's a suggestion: how about an organized global LibrePlanet where a smaller gathering is held in every large city in the world. People from the region of each city will gather, have valuable in-person connections, and efforts will be made to all engage together. Every local gathering will watch a keynote presentation and so on. We should be conscious of the impacts and costs of our choices, but we should also not sacrifice our effectiveness as a movement. In harmony, Aaron Wolf On 2021-04-04 12:33 a.m., Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss wrote: On 04/04/2021 03:54, Thomas Lord wrote: Good programmers inevitably learn, somewhere along the way, the following lesson: When you encounter a very hard problem to solve, don't spend all your time just on the problem. Also question whether it really needs to be solved - or if a better approach avoids the problem in the first place. Libre Planet is built on the following intolerable premise: People should fly from around the world to Boston, once a year, to connect free software activists and enthusiasts in a social setting conducive to sharing presentations, meeting, and having informal discussions. Only one part of that premise is no longer tolerable, at all, in 2021: the travel it requires. Air travel is, with perhaps very rare exceptions, wildly, intolerably socially irresponsible. The rate at which fossil fuel emissions must now fall is so rapid, it not compatible with widespread air travel, and it is not compatible with current levels of energy demand. This same problem, in addition to the pandemic's discouragement of large "meatspace" conferences, effects not only Libre Planet, but everyone on the planet. Few are no fly-in conferences are anything but extremely irresponsible in 2021. It's just a fact. Image It will be hard to replace the Libre Planet conference but perhaps not *too* hard 64Good programmers inevitably learn, somewhere along the way, the following lesson: When you encounter a very hard problem to solve, don't spend all your time just on the problem. Also question whether it really needs to be solved - or if a better approach avoids the problem in the first place. Libre Planet is built on the following intolerable premise: People should fly from around the world to Boston, once a year, to connect free software activists and enthusiasts in a social setting conducive to sharing
Re: easy CoC solution: permanently end in-person conference
FWIW, among other family issues, I have myself felt uncomfortable with the prospect of flying to conferences for exactly this reason. The stats on the environmental significance of flying are overwhelming. I saw something like a flight within the U.S. 48-states being comparable to 8 months of average driving. I also heard a good argument that the *enemies* of a healthy, free, sustainable society (such as the developers of the worst and most abusive proprietary software and also the people behind the most polluting industries) are continuing to fly all over and do everything they can to retain *their* solidarity and businesses. I do not believe in fighting fire with fire. I do not believe two wrongs make a right. But I do believe that we should take a consequentialist or utilitarian approach that is thinking in the long-term. If (and maybe only if) activists flying to get together is part of what makes enough difference to a movement that it really has more impact, it will be worth it. If 500 plane trips happen and the connections they support lead to stripping away the power of the oligarchs who block society from becoming truly sustainable, then it could be worth it. But maybe a small number of people can do global-reach in-person conferences that bring together effectively representatives of more localized conferences that don't involve flying. Here's a suggestion: how about an organized global LibrePlanet where a smaller gathering is held in every large city in the world. People from the region of each city will gather, have valuable in-person connections, and efforts will be made to all engage together. Every local gathering will watch a keynote presentation and so on. We should be conscious of the impacts and costs of our choices, but we should also not sacrifice our effectiveness as a movement. In harmony, Aaron Wolf On 2021-04-04 12:33 a.m., Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss wrote: > > > On 04/04/2021 03:54, Thomas Lord wrote: >> Good programmers inevitably learn, somewhere along the way, the >> following lesson: >> When you encounter a very hard problem to solve, don't spend all >> your time just on the problem. Also question whether it really >> needs to be solved - or if a better approach avoids the problem in >> the first place. >> Libre Planet is built on the following intolerable premise: People >> should fly from around the world to Boston, once a year, to connect >> free software activists and enthusiasts in a social setting >> conducive to sharing presentations, meeting, and having informal >> discussions. >> Only one part of that premise is no longer tolerable, at all, in >> 2021: the travel it requires. Air travel is, with perhaps very >> rare >> exceptions, wildly, intolerably socially irresponsible. The rate > at >> which fossil fuel emissions must now fall is so rapid, it not >> compatible with widespread air travel, and it is not compatible >> with >> current levels of energy demand. >> This same problem, in addition to the pandemic's discouragement of >> large "meatspace" conferences, effects not only Libre Planet, but >> everyone on the planet. Few are no fly-in conferences are anything >> but extremely irresponsible in 2021. It's just a fact. >> >> Image >> >> It will be hard to replace the Libre Planet conference but perhaps >> not *too* hard 64Good programmers inevitably learn, somewhere along >> the way, the following lesson: >> When you encounter a very hard problem to solve, don't spend all >> your time just on the problem. Also question whether it really >> needs to be solved - or if a better approach avoids the problem in >> the first place. >> Libre Planet is built on the following intolerable premise: People >> should fly from around the world to Boston, once a year, to connect >> free software activists and enthusiasts in a social setting >> conducive to sharing presentations, meeting, and having informal >> discussions. >> Only one part of that premise is no longer tolerable, at all, in >> 2021: the travel it requires. Air travel is, with perhaps very >> rare >> exceptions, wildly, intolerably socially irresponsible. The rate > at >> which fossil fuel emissions must now fall is so rapid, it not >> compatible with widespread air travel, and it is not compatible >> with >> current levels of energy demand. >> This same problem, in addition to the pandemic's discouragement of >> large "meatspace" conferences, effects not only Libre Planet, but >> everyone on the planet. Few are no fly-in conferences are anything >> but extremely irresponsible in 2021. It's just a fact. >> It will be hard to replace the Libre Planet conference but perhaps >> not *too* hard. We have software like
Re: libreplanet-discuss Digest, Vol 132, Issue 4
On Sunday, April 4, 2021, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <[1]l...@lkcl.net> wrote: On Sunday, April 4, 2021, <[2]libreplanet-discuss-request@ libreplanet.org> wrote: > > Also as a member consider that the Code of Conduct have to > > include > > gender and anti harassment policies NO THEY DO NOT. please get it through your heads that if you wish to utterly destroy a community by creating a deeply disturbing environment of fear, distrust and division, you will go ahead with a toxic proscriptive list of behaviours. the person who thought this was a stunningly good idea requested that procedures be put in place to deal with harrassment by males. if that is the case then in order for the PROCEDURES THEMSELVES not to be discriminatory you MUST also include procedures for: * harassment by females * harassment by aliens * harassment by transexuals * harassment by psychotic self aware robots and every other stupid permutation listed on the toxic code which should never have been created in the first place. please get it through your heads. the purpose of Conduct Codes is to DIVIDE and DESTROY communities. l. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: [3]https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 References 1. mailto:l...@lkcl.net 2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss-requ...@libreplanet.org 3. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: libreplanet-discuss Digest, Vol 132, Issue 4
On Sunday, April 4, 2021, <[1]libreplanet-discuss-requ...@libreplanet.org> wrote: > > Also as a member consider that the Code of Conduct have to > > include > > gender and anti harassment policies NO THEY DO NOT. please get it through your heads that if you wish to utterly destroy a community by creating a deeply disturbing environment of fear, distrust and division, you will go ahead with a toxic proscriptive list of behaviours. l. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: [2]https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss-requ...@libreplanet.org 2. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: easy CoC solution: permanently end in-person conference
On 04/04/2021 03:54, Thomas Lord wrote: Good programmers inevitably learn, somewhere along the way, the following lesson: When you encounter a very hard problem to solve, don't spend all your time just on the problem. Also question whether it really needs to be solved - or if a better approach avoids the problem in the first place. Libre Planet is built on the following intolerable premise: People should fly from around the world to Boston, once a year, to connect free software activists and enthusiasts in a social setting conducive to sharing presentations, meeting, and having informal discussions. Only one part of that premise is no longer tolerable, at all, in 2021: the travel it requires. Air travel is, with perhaps very rare exceptions, wildly, intolerably socially irresponsible. The rate at which fossil fuel emissions must now fall is so rapid, it not compatible with widespread air travel, and it is not compatible with current levels of energy demand. This same problem, in addition to the pandemic's discouragement of large "meatspace" conferences, effects not only Libre Planet, but everyone on the planet. Few are no fly-in conferences are anything but extremely irresponsible in 2021. It's just a fact. Image It will be hard to replace the Libre Planet conference but perhaps not *too* hard 64Good programmers inevitably learn, somewhere along the way, the following lesson: When you encounter a very hard problem to solve, don't spend all your time just on the problem. Also question whether it really needs to be solved - or if a better approach avoids the problem in the first place. Libre Planet is built on the following intolerable premise: People should fly from around the world to Boston, once a year, to connect free software activists and enthusiasts in a social setting conducive to sharing presentations, meeting, and having informal discussions. Only one part of that premise is no longer tolerable, at all, in 2021: the travel it requires. Air travel is, with perhaps very rare exceptions, wildly, intolerably socially irresponsible. The rate at which fossil fuel emissions must now fall is so rapid, it not compatible with widespread air travel, and it is not compatible with current levels of energy demand. This same problem, in addition to the pandemic's discouragement of large "meatspace" conferences, effects not only Libre Planet, but everyone on the planet. Few are no fly-in conferences are anything but extremely irresponsible in 2021. It's just a fact. It will be hard to replace the Libre Planet conference but perhaps not *too* hard. We have software like jitsi. We have telephony systems. So forth. Perhaps Libre Planet should evolve into an annual "big event" online but also an ongoing series of smaller online events. I don't know. People with a clearer picture of the needs should discuss that. For now, it is enough to say that a conference premised on air-travel is in and of itself an astonishing anti-social proposition in 2021, and from now on. Of course online conferences also need behavioral guidelines, but there is no point squabbling over those until we begin to have some permanent online conference infrastructure in place. And until that infrastructure is in place, Libre Planet should do the right thing and take no further steps that would encourage air travel. -t This appears to be more of a 'environmental' argument rather than a code of conduct argument. But some good points are raised. That aside, I think there is an element of meeting old / new friends at conferences, the positive relationships that form and opportunities that arise out of this can in some cases outweigh even the best conference speech. The pandemic has caused a lot of problems, in terms of isolation and mental health which has resulted by isolation. People want to get back out and the human instinct is to be in groups. I think there is scope for hybrid conferences, but it would be nice to fly over. If that isn't possible then what we have virtually works really well, so lets find ways to stream live conference talks at events. Don't forget also that conferences are really valuable to local economies, people using hotels, visiting local shops, cafes bars, restaurants give local economies a real boost and esp when many have had to close for a year.Without this these places would close, jobs would be lost. If I fly over to Libreplanet in Boston from the UK, I would probably want to stay for a week, see the sighgts around boston. I would guess others would look to do the same. We get together in
