Re: move from freenode
Jean Louis writes: > Kicking out of channel is not suppression of free speech. It is also > not censorship. It is authority of channel operator to kick user out > of the channel. It is private channel. Finished there. That it is private does not mean there is no suppression of speech. Unvoicing, kicking and banning are supressing speech. That we accept it or not is another issue. "Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information. This may be done on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient." Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship > I know it feels hard for you, but you have to take it from ground > up. What is it where you participate? Aha, it is private company > holding private servers. > > Who is paying for it? Do you know the payer? If you don't know the > payer, please find out. > > Are you paying for it? > > Then you should know that people who pay for something are usually > owners of whatever they pay. They are in charge. Facility is theirs. If an injustice is commited because of who handles the money has the power or allows it, that is no justification for an injustice. If you do not consider it an injustice is your prerogative, of course. But changing the name of something is usually the best way to make it look acceptable and just. Moderation is considered acceptable, but censorship is not. It is the same act with a different name used to hide its real motivations. The fact is that moderation is considered to be good temper despite being censorship. > Government is paying for roads but not for your garden and your > swimming pool. You know what is for government and what is > private. IRC is private. Swimming pool is private. You don't want bad > behaving people on swimming pool. And you may get capricious and kick > somebody out. Everything affects everything else. In the end appropriation of anything does not have to do with ability to serve, but with ability to trick. If someone else thinks they should give up freedom or money or rights, others will get the power, even if they do not deserve it. So, property does not reflect merit; it is theft. This is the case especially in land rights, other areas follow suit. > Kicking people on IRC channel can be a joke, can be an event of > capricious person. > > An event caused by single channel operator should not be considered a > policy of the IRC server. Most probably it is not related to each > other. You can't complain to management. > > Then a channel operator could even be hired by IRC server and still > doing some mistakes against their own policies. Complain to management > in this case. Thugs work in complicity, as good people do. Complaining does not mean justice will be in order. It is a game of chance. It depends on who is in power. >> I was writting about a bomb test dropped by the military in the ocean >> that killed thousands of fish. He said it was their freedom to do it in >> line with my defense of freedom of speech. > > It can be. It is not censorship. Censorship is usually by > government. It should be obvious that person is not government > official. > > Channel operator is not necessarily moderator. > > Take all factors in consideration. > > Do you know the channel? Just because of the name it does not mean it > is right community for you personally. Just because of network like > Freenode it also does not mean it is right community. > > What I would consider to be a "good channel": > > - Channel has a website > > - Website explains who are operators and what is the background of the > channel; > > - What kind of people are invited; what kind of topics are discussed; > > - What kind of policies are there in place or none; Transparency is best, achieved by this method you propose. But, in the end, rules are used selectively based on the people who decide. Consensus on decisions is the only true justice. Disagreements and impositions do not bring justice. Power struggle is the alternative to true justice. >> Of course, this is not a policy of Freenode. But it is a policy of >> Freenode to tolerate this type of censorship by channel operators >> against users. Wether censors call themselves moderators, censors or >> otherwise does not hide the suppression of speech. > > IRC is like that. Why should a server owner police what channel owner > is doing? Imagine a hosting provider to read all the websites and take > care of other people's relations? Come on. While it is possible, it is > not feasible. It is possible to make it automatic: no bots, limit the number of words, older users can speak more, etc. Then, it will not become an imposition of one person over another. But it will be a standard which everyone understands and does not require leaving personal political standing. > What you speak censorship
Re: move from freenode
Thanks for such a complete report, Jean Louis. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: move from freenode
Jean Louis writes: > * quil...@riseup.net [2021-06-28 22:06]: >> alimiracle writes: >> >> >>Have fun with the censorship. >> > censorship In a place that calls for freedom >> > What is this hypocrisy And duality. >> >> Exactly! Freenode (under the new administration) says it is to avoid >> the previous censorship policies. I hope Libera changes their views >> about censorship and follow suit. Users should have rights, not the >> channel administrators. > > What exactly is presented as censorship? > > It is not censorship if one forbids vulgar speech. That is > policing. It is not censorship to kick spammers out or similar. > > What is it at hand? Censorship is suppression of free speech. Spam is saying the same thing in the same way, such as: Come to libera Come to libera Come to libera It is not spam to argument something repetitively, but with different reasons or methods. Some reasons convince some people, others convince other people. Suppression of speech is the first way a minority can control some people or even control a majority. It should never be tolerated. It is better to accept some vulgar or rude speech than suppress it. There is always the /ignore command for those who cannot tolerate it. The police are agents hired to execute the ruling minority's agenda with the herd backing them. I do not like to be policed. Policing is not good. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: move from freenode
Zoe Kooyman writes: > Hi Everyone, Hi Zoe. It is nice to see you. :-) I will express some opinions. Kindly forgive my informal direct speech. But please consider that I say it with deep love and dearness to you and everyone else in this list. > We understand the topic of Freenode came up in this list, but Freenode > as a topic is already no longer about free software, discussing > censorship is pushing it even further. Please make sure to stay on > topic and be mindful of peopleŝ expectations for this list. Freedom is interconnected. All rights substantiate the other rights and support them. Without free speech, free software is worthless, in some cases. Free software is also a form of free speech. > Please make sure you are writing information that is useful to others on > this list, on topic, and respectful. This issue is definitely on-topic because it has affected a lot of free software projects. There is no agreement about which is the solution. But its influence is enourmous. Ignoring it is like covering the sun with a finger. > If you're unsure, please refer to: > https://libreplanet.org/wiki/LibrePlanet:About/Code_of_Conduct This thread has kept throughout it these suggestions: * 1.1 Be respectful. * 1.2 Be mindful. * 1.3 Work together. * 1.4 Advocate Freedom. I do not like to call them rules or codes. It sounds like impositions. Suggesting people to use those ways sounds more respectful. Controlling what people discuss will not get them to lower their emotional load. It would do the contrary. It will bottle-up and come up worse later. Expressing feelings and emotions as well as reasoning will help understand what is going on others people's lives. That gives tools for those that want to make better relations, as long as there is emotional support available. Most of the time, people who do not express their true emotions are trying to manipulate us. The best, of course, is to be nice and sincere. But that is not always possible to achieve. So, it is better someone who is rude, rather than someone who nicely takes advantage of others. Good maners do not replace good hearts. Please take into consideration these opinions of mine for the benefit of all the people involved. Nevertheless, I will calmly understand if you disagree and decide otherwise. Thank you very much for your work. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: move from freenode
alimiracle writes: >> I don't base my opinions on rumours. I am wrong person to convince > to. > > It's not rumors. it happened to us. What happened to you? Ops kick, ban and unvoice users all the time. When this was done onto ops, they did not like it. It is a double standard. I see it is the same today on Freenode channels. Ops are allowed to kick users just because they do not like their opinions. This is the same as the libera policy. That is not only infringing the right to free speech. It is infringing the right of the users to listen to the censored user. It is the burning of books! I do agree you have a right to invite others to libera, even if you have not analyzed the situation profoundly. But nobody has censored you here. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: MS Teams and Windows 11
Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss writes: > On 26/06/2021 08:04, Jean Louis wrote: >> * Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss >> [2021-06-26 10:02]: >>> In the mean time, >>> >>> https://test.bigbluebutton.org/ >>> >>> is a useful link to allow people to try out Big Blue Button, lets promote >>> the alternatives, of course there is also jit.si but BBB is designed for >>> education, esp as if a BBB instance can be hosted in different >>> jurisdictions (such as in the EU/UK) then the GDPR apples. >>> >>> Just thought I would highlight this. If a barrier to people using free and >>> open source software is a perceived lack of tools, is it due to the lack of >>> tools or lack of awareness of alternatives. Most people have never heard >>> of Big Blue Button or Jit.si for example. >> >> There is also OpenMeetings >> >> Apache OpenMeetings Project – Installation >> https://openmeetings.apache.org/installation.html >> >> Jean >> >> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: >> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns >> >> In support of Richard M. Stallman >> https://stallmansupport.org/ >> >> ___ >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list >> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org >> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss >> > > > Thanks for this, having a range of options is a good thing, I will > make a blog post that links to all 3. To at least promote the > alternatives. Granted this is a personal blog butt if it helps to > spread the word then that is a good thing surely. > > Paul Even though I think that those solution are not the best, I do think they are better than the nonfree software. Thank you for your work proposing and promoting them. Kindly allow me to suggest. Calling them "alternatives" validates the nonfree versions. A better word to show people the problem is to call them "replacements". It is not mandatory; but it helps advancement of the freedom agenda. Words are powerful! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: move from freenode
Have fun with the censorship. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: move from freenode
alimiracle writes: >>Have fun with the censorship. > censorship In a place that calls for freedom > What is this hypocrisy And duality. Exactly! Freenode (under the new administration) says it is to avoid the previous censorship policies. I hope Libera changes their views about censorship and follow suit. Users should have rights, not the channel administrators. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
rocording a CD with Emacs or command line
Hello. Which i the easiest way to record files on a CD with Emacs or the command line? I would like to use the smallest footprint possible. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: MS Teams and Windows 11
Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss writes: > Hi All > > I found something interesting in a BBC news article with regard to MS > teams and Windows 11. > > It seems that Teams will be even more integrated in to the next > release of windows. I am not a legal expert. However this could > once again prove to be a monopoly grab for MS and just highlights they > don't get it when it comes to un competitive practice. MS have been > in court for Anti trust violations. > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57597352 > > I am not sure if the FSF legal department can take a look at this, as > it may be something that the FSF, FSFE, EFF and others need to > scrutinize to see if there is a violation in competition law. > > I can't see the people behind zoom being very happy about this either, > so we should perhaps be more vocal about it, but more to the promotion > of alternative. Thank you very much for the information. > In the mean time, > > https://test.bigbluebutton.org/ > > is a useful link to allow people to try out Big Blue Button, lets > promote the alternatives, of course there is also jit.si but BBB is > designed for education, esp as if a BBB instance can be hosted in > different jurisdictions (such as in the EU/UK) then the GDPR apples. > > Just thought I would highlight this. If a barrier to people using > free and open source software is a perceived lack of tools, is it due > to the lack of tools or lack of awareness of alternatives. Most > people have never heard of Big Blue Button or Jit.si for example. > > Hope this helps It does. I am worried that Jut.si does not work on either of my machines because they are old. On the other hand, I do not like using software which is not installed by me, because I want an audit for freedom, security and privacy, beforehand. Browser embedded software is too much of a task to audit because it changes so much. I have never used Big Blue Button. Will it also run on a browser? If it does, is there some other solution to making videoconferencing? Maybe XMPP or Tox or Matrix could be a solution. But I am not sure about their characteristics. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Latex freedom issues
Jean Louis writes: > * Caleb Herbert [2021-06-25 23:28]: >> On Thu, 2021-06-24 at 20:10 -0500, quil...@riseup.net wrote: >> > I was notified by the Hyperbola GNU developers that Latex will be >> > removed. There is a freedom bug report on: >> > https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/972 >> >> Somewhere, RMS said "And TeX was free - just barely." IIRC, the issue >> is that you have to change the name of the software to redistribute it, >> or something. >> >> Honestly, I will not trust any alleged freedom concerns coming from >> Parabola and Hyperbola folks. Their policies are extremely strict, >> more strict than most FSDG distros. Just look at the your-privacy >> package! They're getting into users' business way too much. >> >> > Would this issue affect other FSF approved distros? >> >> Probably. I left the FSF-approved ghettos once Python packages were >> not repackaged under a free repository, but simply REMOVED. Honestly, >> I'm getting tired of all this. > > I understand, it is your choice. Fully free FSF endorsed distributions > are taking care not to drive users to non-free software. Python > repository has unclear licensing issues and thus is not > recommended. Nothing forbid you to install software yourself. > > Jean I like your standing. If I would take a stance based on functionality, I would happily mix: Microsoft, Oracle, Apple and GNU products, regardless of their licenses. I would not like to take a stance based on functionality, but on freedom. For me, functionality is needed, but not at the cost of freedom. Maybe others want to place a mortage on their future; not me. Of course there is no total freedom. I do not place the limit for my personal objectives based on investing my assets on functionality, but on long-term freedom. I do not care about a particular document or presentation. What I really want to do is make sure that I use only free software. Will avoiding Latex completely be my only option? If that is the situation, how can I make different types of documents like letters and papers with tables based on text in Emacs' org-mode? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Latex freedom issues
I was notified by the Hyperbola GNU developers that Latex will be removed. There is a freedom bug report on: https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/972 Would this issue affect other FSF approved distros? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Web Application, how?
Jean Louis writes: > * Yasuaki Kudo [2021-05-22 06:03]: >> And I think it's also about taking back control. Today, for the >> majority, accessing the web means using Google Chrome and myriad of >> unknown Javascript that makes even software license practically >> irrelevant, accountability is none and blank check is given to the >> web sites/applications. >> >> For many applications, It might be the time consider adopting CUI > > You can use Emacs. I use Emacs to manage what you are talking. It > works CUI, GUI, it can invoke external GUI, it can even serve HTTP, > and connect to databases. It would be interesting for me to know what a workflow would be for sight-impaired users using Emacs for exchange of information, remote backup, publishing of audio and text, deferred communications and real-time communications. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
list moderation [was: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue]
Greg Farough writes: > On Sat, May 08 2021, Miroslav Rovis wrote: > >> Hi! See below when I sent the message! At the time of >> sending it does not appear on: >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-05/index.html >> I.e. I sent it more than 15 hours ago. > > We actually manually approve every message that comes through > libreplanet-discuss. They won't appear in the archives or on the list > until we approve them, hence the delay. Wow! This seems a rather laborious and unnecessary task. Automatic functions need to be censored to do what users desire. Why would users need to be censored? Organizational objectives and peer union are enough to control trolls. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
Jean Louis writes: > From GNU GPL 3: > > , > | All other non-permissive additional terms are considered "further > | restrictions" within the meaning of section 10. If the Program as you > | received it, or any part of it, contains a notice stating that it is > | governed by this License along with a term that is a further > | restriction, you may remove that term. If a license document contains > | a further restriction but permits relicensing or conveying under this > | License, you may add to a covered work material governed by the terms > | of that license document, provided that the further restriction does > | not survive such relicensing or conveying. > ` > > So we can safely ignore such restrictions. > > Additionally author license it under 2 licenses: > https://avideo.tube/AVideo_OpenSource#OSAV > > Where one is not compatible to GNU GPL, as CDDL license says "that > Source Code form must be distributed only under the terms of this > License". > > Users should not care as GNU GPL does allow to remove such further > restrictions right away. That is great! No wonder Linus Torvalds fears version 3 of GPL so much. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
I doubt that a sight impairment issue can be solved by a window manager or by graphics. What I think that a computer which is friendly to blind users should do is get information (local or external) and interpret it in braile or in sound. The input side is quite solved, as of nowadays. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
dealing with the trolls [was: media.libreplanet.org non-requested ...]
Jean Louis writes: > * Miroslav Rovis [2021-05-06 19:38]: >> > Also good article: >> > https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/aug/02/how-to-deal-with-trump-trolls-online >> I disagree on Trump with that article, and so I didn't read >> much. But this is not the place to go on about politics. > > Not the Trump related, but "content" related reference is inside. Thanks for the article, Jean Louis. In summary: "Like trolling, attention is its lifeblood: without a consenting audience, each withers. And the less time we waste on headlines and hand waving, the more we can focus on what’s actually going on. In the end, bullshit itself is bullshit – someone else’s wishes for your thoughts. Don’t take the bait. Step back. Pick your words and your battles carefully – and never trust a headline that could have been written by satirical algorithm." ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Suppression of speech in this list > Was: Carefully written essay asking for proportionality for rms
Greg Farough writes: > On Fri, Apr 30 2021, quil...@riseup.net wrote: > >> Miroslav Rovis writes: >> >>> (Regarding the close to last lines of mine in bottom: I did not receive >>> this email of yours via libreplanet ML.) >> >> There are 7: >> * Message not available >> at: >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-04/threads.html >> >> I wonder when did I ask the moderators of this list to prevent me from >> reading the expressions of others. I ask the moderators: please give me >> a link to where I can read those emails. If others do not want to see >> those messages, let them opt-out of those messages (not out of the whole >> list). But please do not control my right to read! > > I am not sure what happened in this case, but we have not moderated > any message in this thread. ¡Oh! It was not moderation? > The only circumstance in which we would reject a message without > notifying the sender is if it's a clear-cut case of automated > spam. Please do not jump to conclusions when a technical error is more > likely. I thought that message on the web page meant that those messages were manually removed. Notice that I did not mean that there was no notification to the sender. I meant notification to the readers and a way to read the original message. I know this might not be included in the mailing list software. But it would be good to consider the needs of the readers who do want to read all messages, in case moderators want to suppress speech because of list policy and not because of automated spamming. I am very sorry for assuming that it was not a technical error. Please consider my apologies. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Suppression of speech in this list > Was: Carefully written essay asking for proportionality for rms
Miroslav Rovis writes: > (Regarding the close to last lines of mine in bottom: I did not receive this > email of yours via libreplanet ML.) There are 7: * Message not available at: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-04/threads.html I wonder when did I ask the moderators of this list to prevent me from reading the expressions of others. I ask the moderators: please give me a link to where I can read those emails. If others do not want to see those messages, let them opt-out of those messages (not out of the whole list). But please do not control my right to read! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: The anti-GNU defamatory group of Ludovic Courtès - Re: assessment of the GNU Assembly project
Jean Louis writes: > By the way, could you please update the license on this page: > https://gnu.tools/en/documents/free-software/ > > The page is mentioning "open source" that was never in the original > article for free software here: > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html and original article is > licensed under Copyright © 1996, 2002, 2004-2007, 2009-2019, 2021 Free > Software Foundation, Inc. This page is licensed under a Creative > Commons Attribution-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. -- which > means, that you are required legally: > > - You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and > indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable > manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you > or your use. > > There is no URL to the original article, in fact there is no URL or > hyperlink to any GNU.org page, no proper attribution, no license, > and no indication of modification. You are required to respect > copyrights. This makes me doubt if Guix really respects FSF FSDG. If they cannot respect free software licenses, maybe they include non-free software. That is why I proposed in 2019 that approved distros do not audit themselves for freedom. A third party should. But Donald Robertson has delayed with different excuses over time. John Sullivan also decided to overlook this. They just bounced it back on me, instead of taking action as FSF should do. I wonder why they have so much decision power in FSF and not the board. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Incluive language [was= Re: Who can continue RMS work?]
Caleb Herbert writes: > נכתב על ידי J Leslie Turriff, ב־14.4.2021 בשעה 16:25: >> Esperanto? :-) > > JES Esperanto is the best solution to be inclusive because it is the easiest to learn. Esperanto estas la plej bona solvo por inklusive ĉar ĝi estas la plej facila por lerni. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Danny Spitzberg writes: > A great deal of assertions are flying around this list. > > People are selectively ignoring dozens of personal stories and > experiences, apparently assuming it is all a massive conspiracy that > has been boiling for decades. That seems to prevent productive > communication, and it adds to an atmosphere that prevents happy > hacking. No. People just feel that some persons should not control others' decisions by way of harrassment. I did not receive the below email. It is not in my spam directory either. I will respond to it inline. > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:13 PM wrote: > > Deb Nicholson writes: > > > Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't > > care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, > > participates in free software. > > I feel you are bullying us, Deb. > > In what way do you feel bullied? You keep insisting in imposing your views. They are clear. Some people agree and others don't. Insisting gets you nowhere. It is firing up the environment. It is making people get divided. If that is what you wanted, congratulations because you have achieved it. It shows who is who in the end. You also keep accusing RMS without hard proof. Those are the ways I have felt bullied by you because I am part of the community and because I have studied the facts of the case. I suggest you take the legal route, if you really have a case against FSF or against RMS. Stop the harrassment to the community and stop dividing the movement. If you really want to help the free software movement, look for common objectives, not cancelling people. Work with what you can of RMS, instead of focusing on what he is not able to provide for your objectives. If you have no common objectives, work with others instead of continuing this divisive attitude. > Should I abandon my values and stop promoting freedom? > > My understanding is that Deb expilained an important pattern of > responses by many people who have the right to their psychological and > personal safety in community spaces. So this does strike me as > somewhat ironic. It is ok to express those feelings. It is not ok to harrass by insistence on something that she knows will not be accepted for whatever reason and making us look gloomy. It is not ok pressing others to persecute people for their thoughts and expressions. We are not OK with a witch hunt. This was in the way it used to be in Massachusets. But witch hunts are a thing of the past ... ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Deb Nicholson writes: > Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't > care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, > participates in free software. I feel you are bullying us, Deb. Should I abandon my values and stop promoting freedom? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Aaron Wolf writes: > On 2021-04-15 5:54 p.m., quil...@riseup.net wrote: >> Aaron Wolf writes: >> >>> Ali, >>> >>> I agree with your concerns here, and I have seen many unfair accusations. >> >> No you don't. You are not even addressing his concerns. >> > > I don't need to address his concerns because I don't disagree with > them. So you agree that RMS was targeted just because he is famous? That is, in synthesis what ARH proposes. > There's nothing to discuss about it. My whole reply was about > recognizing the nuance of things that are *different* than the concerns > he has. When it comes to concerns about false and exaggerated > accusations, I wasn't disagreeing with anything. It does not look like that at all. It rather looks as if you want to seem as accepting contrary assertions as equally true. Not as equally valid opinions for each party, but as non-contrary. That is plainly false and insulting the intelligence of everyone in this list. >>> However, we must be sure not to dismiss other concerns. In Deb's recent >>> reply, she didn't repeat any of the unfair exaggerated accusations. We >>> can grapple with the more subtle nuanced issues without assuming all >>> critics are the most extreme ones. Even people who signed the Open >>> Letter (which I saw as grossly unreasonable in some regards) are not all >>> people who would have written the language exactly that way (which is >>> one of the problems with open letters, people feel pressured to sign to >>> signal general agreement and there's not much room to express nuance or >>> a mix of agreement and disagreement). >> >> She is repeating the same blablabla in other words. Diplomacy does not >> cover for the harassment. It is better that she'd rude but sincere than >> diplomatic and false. > > This form of pretending to know other people's minds is toxic and > harmful. Even if she were much *worse* than you believe, it would be a > problem. I do not accept this adhominem attack. It is not necessary. I am not pretending I know what she thinks. I can just see her actions. > If you make mistakes in understanding your worst enemies, it > leaves you in a weaker position. You don't know Deb, and you are reading > plain text communication on the internet. For you to accuse Deb of being > insincere, of being diplomatic and false — you are falling to the level > of the people you criticize. You are levying accusations without > adequate knowledge or evidence. Saying something in a way to convince to do their way by manipulating feelings is not truthful. Usually people which lie look very nice. It could be false. But the results and history of this case demonstrates there are only witch hunts. >> If she feels bad here, it is wise to become part of another group, not >> to try to take over this group or to sabotage the cause of freedom by >> dividing people here. We know how she feels. She knows how we feel. >> No consensus, no work together. That's it! >> > > Deb is not trying to take over this group or sabotage anything. And one > of the core problems with "cancel culture" and so on is the dynamic of > drawing simplistic with-us-or-against-us lines. You are demonstrating > exactly how to divide and sabotage in every aspect of your "That's it!" > attitude which implies you know all you need to know, there's nothing to > be curious about, nothing to learn, and people are either good or > evil. Evil is the act, not the person. It is dividing people in this community in two camps. There is no searching for understanding and consensus. It is just manipulating the group to control what a single person does. I would not allow even my mother to tell me what to do and she intends to tell RMS and all of us what to do with our own advocacy. > Now, that's the *impression* I get from your email. If I were to just > *conclude* that you were forever hopeless and dogmatic and write you > off, I'd be doing the same mistake myself. I don't actually know you, > and I'm only guessing about what's behind your text. And the story in my > mind is that you are upset about the unfair attacks on RMS and are in a > reactive and defensive state which is why you are so dismissive of Deb's > concerns. To be fair, she and others have been reactive as well and > sometimes added to the drama. I am upset by the manipulation. I would rather have her ask something that we would accept, even if it would involve some sacrifice. That would be more honest. > Keep in mind the Fundamental Attribution Error. Generally, people fall > into this mindset where when *we* are reactive and angry, we see it as > just how we are in that circumstance, not how we always are. But when we > see OTHERS being reactive and angry, we presume that this is a > fundamental part of who they are, that they just ARE reactive people who > want to be controlling etc. Just stop trying to control and harrass people. That is all we are asking.
Re: An intermission - I was just watching this and thought it might be a welcome refreshment here
Yasuaki Kudo writes: > Who Cancel Culture Really Serves: > https://youtu.be/3zdyWmiagm4 This Chris Hedges (Pulitzer prize winner) has described very well this situation. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
I have been yelled at by Richard. I just yelled back. We stopped yelling immediately and continued our conversation. I did not attack him publicly as a retaliation. What I would call for, is that the people who want to keep attacking Dr. Stallman to step down from that self-assigned position. This issue has already been presented from all possible sides. We need to work for freedom. Everyone has established their position and there is nothing else anyone can do. Neither side will back up. So it is a waste of time to continue the harrassment to the members of this mailing list. PLEASE STOP! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Aaron Wolf writes: > Ali, > > I agree with your concerns here, and I have seen many unfair accusations. No you don't. You are not even addressing his concerns. > However, we must be sure not to dismiss other concerns. In Deb's recent > reply, she didn't repeat any of the unfair exaggerated accusations. We > can grapple with the more subtle nuanced issues without assuming all > critics are the most extreme ones. Even people who signed the Open > Letter (which I saw as grossly unreasonable in some regards) are not all > people who would have written the language exactly that way (which is > one of the problems with open letters, people feel pressured to sign to > signal general agreement and there's not much room to express nuance or > a mix of agreement and disagreement). She is repeating the same blablabla in other words. Diplomacy does not cover for the harassment. It is better that she'd rude but sincere than diplomatic and false. If she feels bad here, it is wise to become part of another group, not to try to take over this group or to sabotage the cause of freedom by dividing people here. We know how she feels. She knows how we feel. No consensus, no work together. That's it! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Danny Spitzberg writes: > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:34 PM wrote: > > Danny Spitzberg writes: > > > A great deal of assertions are flying around this list. > > > > People are selectively ignoring dozens of personal stories and > > experiences, apparently assuming it is all a massive conspiracy that > > has been boiling for decades. That seems to prevent productive > > communication, and it adds to an atmosphere that prevents happy > > hacking. > > No. People just feel that some persons should not control others' > decisions by way of harrassment. > > I did not receive the below email. It is not in my spam directory > either. I will respond to it inline. > > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:13 PM wrote: > > > > Deb Nicholson writes: > > > > > Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't > > > care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, > > > participates in free software. > > > > I feel you are bullying us, Deb. > > > > In what way do you feel bullied? > > You keep insisting in imposing your views. They are clear. Some people > agree and others don't. Insisting gets you nowhere. It is firing up > the environment. It is making people get divided. If that is what you > wanted, congratulations because you have achieved it. It shows who is > who in the end. > > You also keep accusing RMS without hard proof. > > What counts as "hard proof," a written testimony signed by a lawyer or notary > public? Hard proof for asking him to step down would be that those people he has scared from activism would promote freedom and not open source. Another hard proof would be that they use free software in their machines and not just pieces of free software. Another hard proof would be that they resist corporations more than RMS. Another hard proof would be that they would have rejected as much money as him from corporations, instead of working for them. Another hard proof would be that they work for consensus in the community, not division (like corporations want). I can go on with the list indefinitely. But I am getting tired of distracting my work on HyperbolaBSD. Many hackers are being recruited and guided for learning to write the new kernel. > More importantly: why do you doubt what Deb says, and what so many other > women and femme individuals say? Do you think Deb stands to benefit > financially? (See below for a point > about the original "Witch Trials") > > Those are the ways I have felt bullied by you because I am part of the > community and because I have studied the facts of the case. I suggest > you take the legal route, if you really have a case against FSF or > against RMS. Stop the harrassment to the community and stop dividing > the movement. > > It saddens me that you continue to attempt to suppress these > conversations, instead of offering anything constructive -- as so many > others have done, with grace. Like Aaron and Thomas and so on. (Thank > you all for that!) I am not responsible for your happiness. I have offered solutions. But you will not take them. Harrassment continues. > If you really want to help the free software movement, look for common > objectives, not cancelling people. Work with what you can of RMS, > instead of focusing on what he is not able to provide for your > objectives. If you have no common objectives, work with others instead > of continuing this divisive attitude. > > > Should I abandon my values and stop promoting freedom? > > > > My understanding is that Deb expilained an important pattern of > > responses by many people who have the right to their psychological and > > personal safety in community spaces. So this does strike me as > > somewhat ironic. > > It is ok to express those feelings. It is not ok to harrass by > insistence on something that she knows will not be accepted for whatever > reason and making us look gloomy. It is not ok pressing others to > persecute people for their thoughts and expressions. > > These comments are clearly being shared in the interest of improving > the community. It's a shame you can't see that. But I can say > personally that I've benefited immensely from seeing these narratives > emerge, and the vision has been inspiring. We can treat people better > -- up to a point. Attacks are never in the benefit of the community. They divide it and benefit corporations. > We are not OK with a witch hunt. This was in the way it used to be in > Massachusets. But witch hunts are a thing of the past ... > > Do you know the actual history of witch hunts? They started because > men who owned land and were in power got "called out" by women for > adultery, philandering, and illicit business dealings. They talked > amongst themselves, as women tend to in communities, and word got > out. And as a way of seeking retribution, these same men began rumors > that the women were evil and needed to be killed, by fire. And the > rest you
Re: Helping new contributors
>>Discourse = freedom respecting software under a free software license. >>It runs on someone else's server. (as it is for communities) It uses >>javascript in your browser. >>why people use it = People like Discourse communities because the >>software has made it easy to find new posts, get rid of spam before it >>starts, and keep the spirit of the community going. > > You have not analysed it well. Discourse is full free software that > everybody may run on their own: https://github.com/discourse/discourse In fact, it being free software, presents another problem, the javascript trap https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.en.html . Although ECMAscript is not the only language that runs on a browser, it is the most used to run the server owner's software on the client's machine. I think it is abusive for someone else to run software on my machine without me expressly installing it. Running software on a machine makes that software command that machine. Nobody should be allowed to to command some elses's machine. It is like trusting someone else to drive your car. It is seldom done and under very specific circumstances. Of course we cannot audit each software, that is why we have free distros to check the software for us. LibreJS https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/ cannot keep up with the same pace as a distro for the volume of in-browser software to audit. (At least not as reliably.) That is the reason that I avoid browsers that run external software inside them; I defend my right to control my machine. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Dennis Payne writes: > On Tue, 2021-04-13 at 06:37 +0100, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss > wrote: >> Our >> collective actions can counter defamation easily by posting and >> spreading the truth. >> >> Paul > > No it can't. Lots of sources spread correct information about the > election yet a large enough group felt it was wrong and still do. > You are only talking to the people who believe in your cause. The rest > are tuning you out. If there are lots of RMS messages I simply delete > them unread. Sometimes I'll read them if they are short but there are > no persuasive arguments happening here. Either you believe RMS should > be in charge or you don't. I think you are right. People who do not want to know the truth do not analyze the topic deeply. The best is to show our position by actions. In the mean time, we have gotten a lot of free press thanks to the attacks. We need a thick skin, though. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: GFDL license help
Jean Louis writes: > * quil...@riseup.net [2021-04-12 17:21]: >> Ali Reza Hayati writes: >> >> > I don't want to use those licenses again. I'm trying to avoid any >> > organization that signed RMS' resignation letter. I still contribute >> > to communities' works but I won't be using or contributing to any >> > organization that signed the RMS/FSF open lying letter. >> >> Me too. I will avoid promoting any project which does not openly support >> Richard Stallman. > > Maybe you meant, when it openly defame RMS. I might not be able to accomplish my intent. I am thinking that maybe it could not be convenient either. But what I meant is that I would promote only projects that support RMS. Some projects might have their own policy and would not want to take sides. So, I would have to think this policy better. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: GFDL license help
Jean Louis writes: > That shows how corrupt are organizations. For people it is hard to > tell, as I do not know none of them. I know few good programmers and > good persons who speak against RMS in unfounded manner and I am kind > of negatively surprised how their minds work. In general, I expected > of programmers to think logically due to programming, but that is not > so, they may not at all be socially skilled and they may be geniouses > but social sociopaths. People are not motivated by reason. All people act based on feelings and emotions, even the most logical ones. What a smart person could do is control the stimulus for their emotions. In the end, emotions are the ones in control. In practice, the logic is there only to justify the path already taken. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: [Packages - Privacy Issue #3010] (not-a-bug) telegram-desktop: phone number is released to other telegram users having the phone number in their addressbook
Jean Louis writes: > More viewpoints to consider for removal of this package from Parabola: > == > > High priority projects for FSF: Decentralization, federation, and > self-hosting > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority-projects/decentralization-federation > > Ways to help > > Self-hosting of services or service nodes allows the individual > more control over the security and nature of their information > storage and is a social contribution to building networks that > serve rather than undermine communities > > We are not helping this purpose if we promote centralized network > named Telegram. > > Let us change telegram-desktop to use our own self-hosted > telegram-server, which is to be renamed, then we shall allow such > package, otherwise it should not be there. It should be in the > blacklist. I like this idea. But since I am not a programmer, it is not within my reach. Nevertheless I can be sure that, rather than having endless discussions about if it would be convenient or not to ban a certain software based on what could happen in the future, it is best to make a test today. If Telegram makes an attack, it will prove it is bad. If Telegram accepts the new federated server, it will become part of its terms of service. In both situations, the community wins because we either get transparency or freedom. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: GFDL license help
Ali Reza Hayati writes: > I don't want to use those licenses again. I'm trying to avoid any > organization that signed RMS' resignation letter. I still contribute > to communities' works but I won't be using or contributing to any > organization that signed the RMS/FSF open lying letter. Me too. I will avoid promoting any project which does not openly support Richard Stallman. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Fwd: Improving the FSF in support to the GPL, RMS and staff
People are not programs. Commands will not make people get along better. Codes, rules and laws usually serve to make the rulers abuse the rest by way of conflating several minorities against one minority led by an elite. At one time or another, we will be part of one minority which will be abused. Better understanding would come to be by finding common ground to cooperate upon, instead of limiting the personal expressions and actions of others. I liked your first two paragraphs. Can we work with that? I am not a member of FSF, nor am I in Boston. But I think this strategy will have common acceptance. I wish you freedom and happyness. Quiliro Ordóñez ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Danny Spitzberg writes: > Telling people to stop like you’ve been doing repeats is an attempt at > censorship. "Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information." "Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies. (From Wikipedia in English) I do not think this list is under a controlling body in power of Jean Louis. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Danny Spitzberg writes: > Jean, by evidence of the discussion about effective organizational > governance and the contributions to the free software movement, these > messages are all important to happy hacking for liberation. I count 16 > messages from you with attempts to police people for their views and > proposals to that end. Please stop your recreated attempts at censorship. Censorship is the suppression of speech. Asking someone to shut up is not the same as imposing silence, even if done nicely and with justification. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Jean Louis writes: >> What they care is about saving face, not real accountability. > > Who is they? The attackers. Those who prefer good manners with nonfree software than bad manners with free software. The accomplices for developing nonfree software, knowingly or not. For them, saving face is more important than working for freedom. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Jean Louis writes: > * quiliro [2021-03-29 18:48]: >> > * A policy where you are innocent of a crime till proven guilty, this >> > protects both victims and the accused. Investigations should aim to >> > reach the facts of what happened, I did not write this. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Danny Spitzberg writes: > What do you mean by “remove”? Stop RMS' advocacy for freedom on the best possible scenario and platform, which is FSF. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton writes: > https://www.crnhq.org/cr-kit/ Great document. Thank you, Luke. I specially liked the section 2 on discovery and creativity. It gives a whole new perspective about the potential for good in conflict. With this strategy, I think we could summarize that the problem is that it hurts some people is Richard's lack of tact on occassions. But, haven't we all had lack of tact at times? So, the best solution is not to cancel him. The best would be to channel that lack of tact. I suggest we find a way that his anger can be useful for him and everyone else, without making rules to control him or to portray him as the cause of all evil. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Thomas Lord writes: >> "What we need to do, is have very robust standards of how people >> behave, drawn up by and for the community," > > The only "problem" you seem to have a solution for is the one of a few > people making fairly ridiculous accusations and complaints. Your > solution is apparently to put them in charge of a much more > authoritarian organization. I also had that impression of this statement by Paul. But I decided to give it the benefit of the doubt. I think he means just having more control of processes, not of people. Processes encourage good relationships. To motivate would not mean to force. I think that would be good, generally speaking. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Danny Spitzberg writes: > Ali, I’m disappointed but not surprised you came to that conclusion yet > again. The history seems to be the opposite: FSF staff organized a union > because RMS was causing harm and dysfunction, and at best, RMS went along > and accepted it as a net positive state of affairs. Does all FSF support your view or is it just a hunch of yours? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Thomas Lord writes: >> "Things have been different with RMS. He has consistently stood out for > years with bad behavior." > > Simply repeating that lie will not make it true. > > Stop wasting everyone's time. They conisider bad behaviour to yell and react badly sometimes and to be too proud, other times. But it is not considered bad behaviour to develop, promote and accept non-free software. What they care is about saving face, not real accountability. It is more important to say kind words than having kind policies. Google, Microsoft, Facebook are better partners to them, than a grouchy activist. I personally think that it is better to generate a thicker skin than be abused in ways a thick skin will not protect me. The agression suffered by non-free software and its accomplices will not be protected by a thick skin. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss writes: > Sometimes what may seem an innocent comment can be quite offensive, if > handled properly the two parties can be brought together, to explain > how each feels, and that generally should result in forgiveness and a > better understanding of each other. Esp when it was down to a simple > mis understanding. I don't think those people are seeking that with RMS. I think that they are trying to force him to say things that he does not believe in and act in ways contrary to his values just to get them to stop the harrassment. But he is very firm and will not be scared off easily. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss writes: > On 26/03/2021 15:54, Aaron Wolf wrote: >> I really appreciate seeing the perspective from Georgia. Thanks also >> deeply to Deb Nicholson for engaging here in this space. Obviously, >> these negative reports about RMS being presented *here* amounts to the >> opposite of an echo-chamber. These voices are bring extremely valuable >> perspective — the sort we *lose* if we aren't careful to assure that our >> spaces are not only open to anyone but actually in *practice* have them >> feel welcome and stay. >> >> The Free Software movement is weaker for every loss of perspective. We >> have a duty to be not only gracious but appreciative of people like Deb >> for engaging and staying with us despite the tensions. >> >> Georgia's line is exceptionally important: "…the fact that he faced >> consequences for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the >> decades of shitty behavior…" >> >> These are not people who are dogpiling on hearsay or gotcha online >> statements or whatever else. Those anti-patterns do indeed happen, and >> they polluted and harmed the credibility of the recent open letter >> against RMS. But here we have people who fully understand the unfairness >> and yet can express from extensive personal experience the *actual* >> reasons why RMS's leadership is problematic. >> >> As someone who deeply and profoundly respects RMS for various reasons, I >> still don't just simply support his leadership role. I do not want him >> banished, I want him to learn and do better on his pain points. I don't >> want to be naive though, efforts in this direction have obviously been >> done for years and not been enough. >> >> I would like to continue to get RMS' insightful and pointed perspectives >> without having him lead the organization. I would like him to live in >> the zone where his genius most thrives and he contributes the most, and >> I suggest that the other roles he has had would be better filled by others. >> >> If we want a resilient movement, we need to be really open to engaging >> with complaints. An organization that defends the status quo against >> such critics is like the NSA attacking Ed Snowden and people insinuating >> that Snowden is working for Russia (similar to people talking about how >> Deb now works for the OSI and the OSI is connected to corporations). >> >> I'm not suggesting deference to the outside unfair critics, the people >> who do indeed levy unfair attacks, mine quotes, spread FUD, etc. That >> stuff can be real, and we need to defend against it. >> >> But people like Deb are our whistleblowers, they are insiders who are >> bringing attention to serious issues. If we ignore or attack >> whistleblowers, we will fail to learn important lessons. This attitude >> can be fatal to a movement. >> >> In solidarity, >> Aaron Wolf >> (FSF member since 2014, co-founder of Snowdrift.coop) >> >> >> >> ___ >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list >> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org >> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss >> > > > I agree, here, there are clearly things that have happened that are > of concern, but that seems to happen elsewhere in the free software, > the tech community and out side too. > > What we need to do, is have very robust standards of how people > behave, drawn up by and for the community, standards based on good > practice from other communities, and look beyond free software. Ideas > / policies need to be evidence, data based so that they are credible. > > Once done, and it will never get fully completed, as it is needs to be > constantly refined, it is not a write once then forget thing. > > * Examine Annually, to make sure the policy / policies are still > working, relevant, inclusive and represent everyone concerned. > > * Clear policy on training, of staff and new staff / volunteers so > people are educated in equality and diversity. If that means an > agreed policy on pronouns it is then consistent fsf wide. > > * A clear policy on what happens, if a complaint is made, how it is > handled, time scale and what, if any the consequences are, how are > allegations handled for example? > > * Fully transparent, > > * Something that can be learnt from > > * Everyone agrees and no one is above this > > * A policy where you are innocent of a crime till proven guilty, this > protects both victims and the accused. Investigations should aim to > reach the facts of what happened, > > * If these things are handled properly, there is no need to > whistleblow or just leave which to me that is a last resort. > > * Make it clear what the talk is about, and the talk is relevant to > free software, drm, etc, Right to repair or which ever it is, > > We have a safe space policy for libre that states certain things are > not tolerated. This last statement sounds dictatorial. I do generally agree make a good environment as you have proposed, but
Re: Support RMS
Aaron Wolf writes: > The reason I bothered speaking up here is because there is a trend > toward dismissiveness. Seek ways to lump the critics in with the bad > actors. Reject an analogy because it's not equivalent. > > Those are the methods by which we *avoid* learning all we can learn. > > If our goal is indeed to gain all the perspectives we can to be as wise > as possible, we must start with the presumption that there *is* > something to learn. Presume that the critics have some insight *even* if > they are guilty of some other unfair statements. Presume that an analogy > has some insight even if it's not actually equivalent. > > To learn, we can say, "*how* is this critique true?" and "what about > this analogy is *true*?" > > To avoid learning, we can say "what aspects of the critic can we use to > dismiss them?" and "in what ways is the analogy wrong?" > > A good mental model: fill in the blank: "I would accept your feedback if > _" (maybe, if you were an expert, or if it were presented without > some unfair attack, or if you have personal experience, or if you've > been part of the community long enough" etc etc) > > Next, recognize that every one of those filters is an *obstacle* to an > open mind. I'm not saying we should be so open-minded that our brains > fall out. But we can be conscious of our filters. Every feedback-filter > is a closed door. It's possible to get to say, "I will truly listen to > and consider any feedback in any form from anyone and any time", but I'm > not saying that's right for us or for anyone in particular. I'm just > saying to *notice* our filters. Good reasoning. Taking the matter off-topic is not the way to argue usefully about the issue. But this bit is educational. > Don't just look for the flaws. Ask: how is the Snowden analogy *useful*? I'll take the bait. How is it? How is attacking an old activist from the safety of distance comparable to risking our lives? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
I see there is a great effort to make a small group of people remove the work of just one person. What that one person does must be very important for someone to try to stop it. I wonder if most of RMS opposers are against the greater part of his work and in favour of the smaller portion of his work. Is there a daily comment on RMS' web page which is offensive enough to have such a tough stand? Or is it that this campaign by the real opposers of his work (corporations) have great power to convince? Or could it be that some of the opposers are not so sincere on their intentions? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: RMS is back on board
Jean Louis writes: > Express your resentments by writing to i...@eff.org Did it now. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: “Free Software”: An idea whose time has passed?
As a free-softwarite, I have been entertained by your analysis and proposals. They look sound, perhaps with one caveat: government is corrupt by design. It is constructed by corporations to advance their agenda in order to control the rest of the population. In the meantime, Richard Stallman (as a promoter of freedom for users) is the best option for our agenda. If a person has rights, it is not always that they choose to have them because of ignorance, laziness or brainwashing. We can only inform them. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: A few thoughts.
Thank you for sharing your comment. Please let me add mine too. El 2021-03-26 09:33, murph escribió: > I walked away that day, not energized about supporting Free Software, > but instead thinking about the man that was in the front of the room > talking about it. Was this the right person to further that cause? I > was a new member then, so I didn't really feel it was my place to > bring this to the FSF. I just let it go. Perhaps I should not have. > Maybe I should have sent an email then, and try to raise these > concerns. Much better service would have been contacting him. He is not perfect and it would have benefited him and everyone else who believes in by freedom. The best would have been if the issue were presented then and not as a reason to make a smaller error minimize the great help to promote freedom that Richard Stallman has been and is. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: RMS is back on board
El 2021-03-23 00:50, Danny Spitzberg escribió: > RMS announced he is back on the FSF board >[1]https://twitter.com/nixcraft/status/1373905399707955202 but his name >is not (yet?) on the FSF website >[2]https://www.fsf.org/about/staff-and-board/ ? > > References > >1. https://twitter.com/nixcraft/status/1373905399707955202 >2. https://www.fsf.org/about/staff-and-board/ https://nitter.cc/nixcraft/status/1373905399707955202 "Some of you might be happy at this and some of you might be disappointed. Who knows! In any case, that's how it is." He is great. Most comments are in favour. It is good publicity for FSF. We must thank those people for giving us a place for Richard to be in the front page of media. It will give us a chance to present our opinion and promote freedom. Those who oppose freedom will probably blame FSF for the war in Iraq because the same dollars are printed financing both. Happy hacking! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Adobe Reader 10
Jean Louis writes: > I would send to government a letter that software is proprietary and > not a standard, and that government is thus favoring proprietary > company "Adobe" that is not even Canadian company -- I would ask for > reasons why they are favoring foreign company whereby they cannot > guarantee safety of users' data, as software is not free. I would ask > if they have hidden agenda with Adobe and how much Adobe is paying to > government -- or is it just a capricious decision of governments' > official who simply did not know nothing better. There are forms that > work with free software, and if I remember well I was using Evince to > complete such without problems. I would tell them that using > proprietary software impacts my freedom, as it controls my data > without my consent and without possibility to inspect how it works, as > it is not free software. Then I would tell them to provide PDF by > standard that may be edited by software on various operating systems, > and by free software and not just by the one specific Adobe version. > > Write a letter now, maybe you save thousands other people of the same > problem. > > Jean These are great suggestions. Jean is a very experienced and witty person. I would do as he said with just one modification. I would make the letter very friendly and respectful. I have found bureaucrats are very powerful and that their decision can influence government-wide policies. Big corporations know this and invite public officials to play golf with world champions abroad, like happened here in Ecuador. We cannot afford that, but we can certainly afford to be nice. Maybe true appreciation of people's internal value will sometimes win over money and comfort. Happy hacking! Quiliro ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Adobe Reader 10
Greg Knittl writes: > Hi All, > > Some Ontario Government forms require Adobe Reader 10 which I can't > find for Linux. I'm trying to obtain paper versions, although they > don't make that obvious either. > > Evince won't handle it. Any suggestions for how to process on Linux? Please test other PDF reading and edition software. Below, I show where to search. I suppose you are using some distribution of the GNU operating system, unless you are using Android. Depending on the distribution of GNU, you can search the software available on its package manager. If you tell me your distribution, I can tell you which is its package manager and how to search in it. You can also search the FSF free software directory at: https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Category/Works-with-format/pdf I am not sure if that is the best category. But I guess you can explore and ask here, if you have any further trouble. I hope I was of some help to you. :-) B'free! Quiliro P.S. Please note that refering to our system as Linux promotes the values of the Linux Foundation. They opose the values held by the Free Software Foundation. If you want to promote freedom for software users, please use the name GNU. http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-users-never-heard-of-gnu.html I do not write GNU/Linux as suggested by the cited article. I just use GNU or GNU+linux-Libre, if I have to. That way I avoid it from being mispronounced as GNU Linux. That pronouncition gives me the notion that GNU is a distribution of Linux, which it is not. I feel that would hurt our freedom quest because it would convey people to think that Linux made a system where GNU has added some functionality to. Things are the other way around. Linux was a small element added to GNU. If many people and projects use the terms which promote our values, it would make a great diffence. You can help us a lot this way. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: LilyPond Workshop shortly after LibrePlanet workshop planned.
Tobias Platen writes: > How to compose songs with GNU Lilypond > the Singing Computer by Free(B)Soft, Sinsy (Singing Voice Synthesis > System) and QTAU(an Editor). Very nice! Congratulations for this achievement. I would like to compose music. I wonder if I can be able to do it from such a newbie state in which I am currently at. I cannot even play an instrument. I can sing though. But I have no idea about how to be creative in the music area. Will you speak about that in your workshop? Is the workshop gratis? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: suggestions for leading a free software organization
Thank you very much for all your suggestions. I will certainly uphold the values of freedom before functionality. I will have also added your ideas of how to use my time and resourses to my own ideas. I do not want to join another social network. But I can ask the secretary of the organization to create an account on one of the Mastodon servers. I would like to make the organization self-sustainable and to help activist have advantages over non-activists. (We have always given help to all. But that has not been sustainable. So a lot of people and organization who do not favour freedom have more been benefited. They have not contributed back.) It has been great to receive your input. It has made me have more ideas and feel supported. I do not feel this position is of comfort, but of responsability. Thanks :-) ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
suggestions for leading a free software organization
Dear Libre Planet: I have just been elected president of the Free Software Asociation of Ecuador. I would like to receive suggestions for making a successful advocacy for freedom during the following 2 years which I will be in office and for making a sustainable path for the following boards. My work is not payed. But the organization can receive money through donation or sales. Money is not the only resource it could have. I just mention it, in case it is required for the suggestions. Any tip is valuable to me. Thank you very much for your time and wisdom. Quiliro Ordónez President - ASLE https://asle.ec Board member - FSF LA https://fsfla.org ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Jitsi mailing list help
Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss writes: > Hi > > Does anyone know if the jitsi mailing list page works properly ? > > A duckduckgo.com sends me here > > https://desktop.jitsi.org/Development/MailingLists > > However trying to click the link, to the users' mailing list seems to > not do anything for a while. then comes up with > > Error 522 Ray ID: 618a73064af60081 • 2021-01-28 11:42:49 UTC > Connection timed out > > Error seems to be at the host end. After some waiting, I get a different error than you from my Emacs eww non-javascript browser. Maybe if you test if activating JS will make it work, we would know that it is a policy problem on their part. Otherwise it would probable be a server problem. > I would like to just get in touch with them to suggest > > 1. Support for peertube videos (and support for other services) > 1a. If people are blocking non-free java script it causes issues with > video playback. And probably use of the microphone. > 2. Some sort of Mic / Speaker test facility like there is with Big > Blue Button (zoom etc) I have issues with sound sometimes, but I have > no way of testing before entering the room. I tested when I used JS-enabled browsers by using the sound recorder: I also checked if the browser had not muted the microphone. (On the tab there is a microphone icon which is crossed when muted.) ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: New animated video: Fight to Repair
"Paul D. Fernhout" writes: > Hi Greg, > > Thanks for making this video. It makes an important point about risk and > proprietary software in a persuasive way. > > As mentioned previously (2020-08-08) I did not like the last 30 seconds > of "The University of Costumed Heroes" where the FSF-oriented "hero" > kills people. By contrast, "Fight to Repair" does not have that specific > issue, as instead the villain is turned over to the police instead of > being murdered by a vigilante FSF advocate. > > There is still physical violence by the hero near the end of "Fight to > Repair" which could *potentially* have ended in the death of the villain > (from being kicked off a motorcycle at high speed). Potentially -- out > of context -- such an action by the hero could be categorized as felony > assault? Although presumably in context that assault would not be > prosecuted as such as it was in defense of two other people's lives? And > in the end the villain just ended up sliding into a pile of garbage > without apparent injury from the physical assault -- which maybe is the > best one could hope for in this genre? > > Of course, the police and courts can engage in state-sanctioned > violence. So, turning over a presumed criminal to police isn't entirely > a non-violent conflict-resolving act in that sense (even without things > like George Floyd tragedy). Nonetheless, involving the police or courts > is generally considered an appropriate response to lawbreaking conflict > in our society (especially compared to vigilante violence). > > I continue to encourage you -- especially in light of recent events in > the USA -- to think more deeply about crafting FSF messages that avoid > explicitly or implicitly endorsing the idea that "vigilante violence is > the answer". In that sense, this video is much better than the last. But > there may still be room for improvement -- or maybe not given the genre? > > In case it helps, here is a book review I did in 2009 on "The War Play > Dilemma: What Every Parent And Teacher Needs to Know" by Diane E. Levin > and Nancy Carlsson-Paige which might provide some more context on where > I am coming from: > https://pdfernhout.net/the-war-play-dilemma.html > "The "dilemma" is about a fundamental conflict parents face when dealing > with war play. On the one hand, most parents want children to grow and > develop by working through developmental issues (like learning to deal > with conflict, learning self-control, and learning respect for > themselves and others through play, including play involving conflicts > as hands-on-learning). On the other hand, most parents want to convey > social values related to their beliefs about violence and war as ways to > solve social conflicts. The authors clearly do not say all war play is > bad, and they also point out that even a cracker can be turned into a > gun with one bite. The authors say there are no easy general answers to > this dilemma in all situations, but provide a range of options." > > Most of us grew up on a steady diet of violent media -- so watching > physical assault in videos has been normalized in that sense. And it's > true that conflict is a core part of almost any story. Thinking about > ways to transcend conflicts -- especially non-violently -- can be a huge > challenge. One possible starting point: > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=non-violent+conflict+resolution > > Thanks for continuing to refine the FSF message in more positive ways. That is a very enlightening analysis. Thank you very much for your input Paul . I would like to see some good reference to non-violent examples, beyond the classical King and Gandhi, in order to visualize what a non-violent free software promotional video could be. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: New animated video: Fight to Repair
On https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/fight-to-repair , the link to iFixit: https://www.repair.org/stand-up does not work. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: New animated video: Fight to Repair
It is a great video. Congratulations! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: What email can folks try that's in harmony with principles of Libre software and like gmail isn't stored locally?
Yoni Rabkin writes: > Don Saklad writes: > >> What email can folks try that's in harmony with principles of >> Libre software and like gmail isn't stored locally? > > https://www.fsf.org/resources/webmail-systems Nice recomendations. Thanks. There, it mentions Email-in-a-Box: https://mailinabox.email/ The only way to have control of your email is to have your own server, which will be under your control. With Email-in-a-Box you can set up your own email server without much IT knowledge. I have never tested it. https://mailinabox.email/guide.html It looks nice, besides the fact that you need to have unblocked SMTP ports, which most home connections do not have open. So you must use a virtual server, which would not be under your control. The only real solution is to pay the price to have a public fixed IP address with unblocked SMTP ports (ports 25, 465 and a couple of others). A way to do this cheaply is to agree with others to share the cost. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Possible promotional article
Thank you for the bulletin, Paul. I think it is important to start with something which impacts on the first paragraph and sentence. Maybe something such as: "Empowering computer users in these times when freedom is at risk requires tools such as those which will be presented at LibrePlanet 2020." ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Privacy Respecting Replacement for facebook groups
Jean Louis writes: > * Jean Louis [2020-10-05 18:37]: >> Those are nice references Jim, thank you. >> >> Let us also mention that basic collaboration on any file need not be >> in real time, it is very simple to send the file to collaborator, for >> review and revisions, and to send it back to other collaborator for >> review and revisions. >> >> That need no server, or revision system, it just needs way of >> transmitting files over network, such as email, chat, or some FTP or >> cloud storage, it would work even by sending USB stick by postal mail. >> >> Right now I cannot imagine the use case where two people would be >> writing on the same file in the real-time. > > And while we are speaking, on emacs-devel mailing list we found > Qiantan Hong, who made Emacs Lisp to make real time simultaneous > editing, and we are testing it now. Nice to know. Please provide some information about your experience, when you think it is ready. > But I still cannot find good reason to make it "simultaneous" > editing. Maybe for correcting students or correcting language, > interpunction, inspection, really hard to think. It is not logical and > not practical to have two separate minds far apart from each other > working on the text in same time. I wish to find more practical use cases. I do find it useful to collaboratively edit a document. Nvertheless, I have not done it in real life. I suppose that when we have an onsite meeting, drafting on a table collaboratively would be the equivalent of drafting collaboratively on-line. Otherwise, the experience could loose even more of what on-site collaboration has. But again, this is not my use-case. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Privacy Respecting Replacement for facebook groups
Dankon! Thank you very much for this information. It is very useful for me. The Internet is flooded with information to be used by a web browser, which is now a universal application installer. I am totally freaked by that. I like the take you propose: Simple way to exchange files with versioning on a safe protocol such as ssh or vpn. On Sun, October 4, 2020 7:02 am, Jean Louis wrote: > > Person asked for simple thing, like chat, no big setup, I have > recommended XMPP, yet friendica on many servers also offer group > creation. As long as it is hosted by somebody else it is never enough > private, as server administrators can enter into the data. It looks good. But there is always the problem of privacy and anonymity. I guess there are ways to encrypt XMPP and there is Tor for anonymity. But I am not sure if Tor is very secure. I have heard i2p is more secure. Also, I have heard of tox.chat . I think the terminal client can be used even from inside Emacs. I have heard of wahay.org regarding easy p2p encrypted private (with regards to spying) communications. It looks nice for end users. > I have no idea of that software as since 2 decades I am using free > software, and I do collaborate with many staff members and they > collaborate between themselves, major communication type we use is > email and XMPP chat, then comes Mumble voice speech server, that is > about all. Email we use mostly with encryption. > > Tasks and expenses are handeld in Org Mode tables and in accounting, > such are sent by email semi-automatically to staff members who then > review the tables and send them back. If I would have real-time > editing, I would not know who edited what, at what time, which is > important in editing expenses tables. [...] > It is easy to work collaboratively on documents, as that is how > programmin is done by using various revision systems, which are best > for collaboration. [...] > I would myself, simply setup: > > - git or any other revision server > > - have staff members learn the workflow of editing and pushing files > into server > > - using Emacs to do the editing > > That can then work for anything, for web pages, new articles, just > anything. As we are speaking, one person is receiving thousands of > images over ethernet by simple scp transer, and rotating them, imagine > if I would be using NextCloud for such task, I would get crazy and > everybody in team. But using simpler tools which are already there, > one can collaborate very well. > > scp or secure copy from OpenSSH suite is one good system for > collaboration. > > UNIX or POSIX or POSIX-like file systems are good systems for > collaboration. > > File managers today can bind to remote servers over scp/ssh lines, > that is good system for collaboration. > > Installing ssh on server is so much easier than installing complicated > web based whatever. [...] > File system is basic collaboration > > NFS and Samba is network file system, it is also basic collaboration, > mostly inside of local area network, which is used internally. > > SSH file system is for collaboration and document management over > networks. > > VPN is used to secure private networks. > > Files are edited by text editors and various text processing > software. > > Mounted file systems can be easily accessed by users, edited, > collaborated. > > Revision systems are mostly used for collaboration and editing of > various files, but are not well known to general public. Yet that is > most simplest and most safe, stable way for editing files in > collaboration. Once workflow have been learned, person can perform. > > I have staff members who had no previous knowledge of computers. I am > focusing on their workflow, they learn the workflow well, the can > perform. It would be nice to have a manual to mount everything needed in a server with what you describe and the required setup on the workstations. The best would be serverless, p2p infrastructure on the style wahay.org has. No one would need to depend on the internet lords (domain name and public IP address) or learn how to set up a server. Failing that, the infrastructure you describe would be nice to set up with a complete guide (not pieces with links) in order to have an integral and simple configuration. (Please do not feel obliged to construct it. It is just an extremely useful thing to have in order to build a simple, yet efficient and modern technological infrastructure, without the bloat.) ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: The sad decline of copyleft software licenses? :(
What a great analysis and discussion. Thank you very much, Pen-Yuan Hsing and all participants! For me, freedom seen as the center of the discussion is a great success for us. Most people think economy is the main topic. But freedom is the mother of economy (without freedom, there could not be economic autonomy). Other people think that functionality is prime. So they incur in the same error: searching a destination by looking for the streets, not at the objective. I think that by looking at the practical results of one or other policy, we can see if they are good or bad for our goals. We can see that copyleft has done great benefit, even against the efforts of people that do not value the user's freedom, even against people that use GPL while ttrying to hinder user's rights. I do also think that sustainability is the best tool for the success of a project. So I would try to help copyleft software adopt a sustainable economic, social and even political model. snowdrift.coop sounds good for that objective. I have not investigated fully. But it certainly has good looks. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Parabola-rM: Desktop GNU/Linux on E-Paper Tablet
Amin Bandali writes: > quiliro writes: > >> Davis Remmel writes: >>> http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/install-guide-latest.pdf >>> http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/ >> >> I cannot open either web page with Emacs eww. Can anybody else open it? >> > > Both pages do load in eww for me, though for some reason they take > substantially more time to load in eww than, say, in GNU IceCat. > Equally slow with wget as well. Not sure why it takes so long to > establish a connection with this particular web server when using > eww or wget. After 10 minutes, they would not open with eww. But outside of Emacs with wget, it would work after a while. It seems it is my networking problem with IPv6. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Parabola-rM: Desktop GNU/Linux on E-Paper Tablet
"Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode)" writes: > Hi, > I can. Here is the pdf file your link points at. Thanks. :-) ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Parabola-rM: Desktop GNU/Linux on E-Paper Tablet
Davis Remmel writes: > http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/install-guide-latest.pdf > http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/ I cannot open either web page with Emacs eww. Can anybody else open it? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Advice Workplace that Forces Non-Free Software
I think that this thread has brought up many issues. These are important points for me to highlight. These situations force upon us compliance because we either have no other income opportunities or because we are not willing to earn less elsewhere: * Serving an employer to help subjugate users by way of non-free software, with or without the user's consent. * Accepting to work under conditions others impose on us. * Advantages (or maybe disadvantages) of being freelance over having a job. All these issues are relative to the amount of subjugation we are willing to accept upon us. The less you can take, the less money you will get. Abiding by everyone else's wishes will get you more opportunities, but less freedom. I have noticed that having less and less money makes it easier to be free and to enjoy the important things in life. Every year I spend about 20% less than I spent the previous year. I could do it because I have a very detailed listing of all my expenditures with ledger-mode from Emacs. Now I consider each expenditure as an investment. If investments do not save money or generate money, they are worthless. The same with other resources. They eventually bring me more comfort or dependence depending on how much they generate. So I am no longer a slave of the economic factor. That way I can gain more freedom every year. Of course, I cannot use hardware which is under my control yet. But using all free software is a great advancement from where I had been before! And physical possessions are not the things that matter most in life. Good luck on your own route to happiness. :-) ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Recommendations of LMS
Jonathan Sandoval writes: > Techela-emacs was a nice discovery and I'll surely give it a try. But, I > think it wouldn't be a good fit for our use case. > > I think my message lacked some context. We're not a formal educational > institution. We're a community initiative. In an old house there was an > outdated healt post. Because of new regulations, it was too expensive > for the community to keep on mantaining that place, and there were other > options for them. It wasn't like that in the 90s when it was created. > > So, the community decided to transform the place in a cultural house. A > couple of years ago we started to teach contemporary dance because a > volunteer teacher appeared. Then, other teacher approached to teach > colombian salsa, and then other teacher offered himself to teach guitar > and so on. > > We now have spaces for dance, teather, guitar, a library, and some > computers were donated recently. I proposed them to use free software, > and talked to them about it and they agreed. I choose Trisquel and was > in the process. I started my own project too; a science club with kids. > > Because of COVID-19, our activites halted. As I mentioned, the people of > the cultural house are a mix of academics from univerties, but common > people without formal education and not much knowledge on computing. We > have a teacher of agroecology who is knowleadgeable about that topic, > but not much in computers. > > I taught them to use Jitsi Meet and BigBlueButton. It was not > easy. Jitsi was a little simpler, but not everyone could use BBB. I > suspect the reason is an old cellphone, but the preventive isolation > does not allow me to really diagnose the problem. It's an example. Other > guys have really slow computers and most of them have Windows. We're > just beginning with free software and I haven't had the opportunity to > make an installation festival. And other problems have arisen. > > So, expecting them to learn emacs, in Windows and Git does not sound > like a very good idea. For them, accesing a site with their browsers is > more natural, because all of them at least have an e-mail account. I > doubt 30 minutes are enough for learning emacs (I recently tried to show > the basics to a friend who's a programmer and is used to VSCode and he > seemed really confused and kind of gave up). > > The other reasons is that our focus are not assignments. We want to > create educational resources for our classes. > > Thanks again for your suggestions and ideas. Thank you for such a beatiful story. Nevertheless, I guess that you do not believe me that Emacs can be made very easy to learn by adding buttons to it. Maybe I will learn to add them and show you a snapshot. I am not sure if I will have time, though. I am sorry if I might not make it. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Recommendations of LMS
Jean Louis writes: > In my opinion, LMS should be just assignment giving and receiving > software, yet what should be learned and how, should not be limited by > the interface that is used for LMS. As teaching is not focused on the > interface, it has no limits. For example limiting students to use > browser only, or attempting to make every action of a student > figurable or understandable through browser only is not point of > teaching, as it is not widening the knowledge. Students should > have liberties to use any tools that are suitable for learning. I agree with this. I think it is even easier for the student to do it with Techela than with Moodle or any web interface because sometime file transfer is not as eficient or privacy respecting with a browser. If Techela works as a git repository, then all files are already downloaded at the user and there is no problem if there is no connection or if the server is down. You can always pull the data later. I do think that Emacs can be configured to be as easy to use for the end user as is any browser based app. It can even be better tweaked. Emacs has the advantage that phone apps have. They are local and they are remote too. I was afraid to use something I have to configure myself. And it cost a lot of work to learn by myself. But end users have us as guides. They can learn fast. We can prepare their configuration and they can have the best of both worlds: hackability and usability with the power of freedom. My fiancee works in Emacs with ledger-mode to register all of our income and expenses. We can have any report we want. Other software is not as flexible and needs to be re-learnt every time there is an update. Using minimalism is an investment. You don't see the results immediately. But they become a net gain! "The only thing that Emacs lacks is a good text editor." :-D ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Recommendations of LMS
Jonathan Sandoval writes: > Thanks everyone for your kind suggestions. > > Techela-emacs seems really interesting as an emacs user myself, but I > cannot expect the other teachers to learn emacs to use it. Emacs can be made easy to use for the end user. Everything in Emacs is configurable to the point that you can use buttons, colors and types. It is even better for maintenance because it will be very easy to migrate text, photos, audios and other files to other platforms when you want. Usability is the best reason for using something entirely configurable. Perhaps time constraints to investigate would be big factor to avoid Emacs. But it would pay itself several-fold, if we consider it as an investment for the gains in future (and present) benefits. I understand that you might be careful not to blow up your prestige by avoiding text-only solutions for canned patches. But if you are considering a long term solution, you could use plain-text applications in parallel with the other temporary canned patches. I know it is more work than just sticking to one decision. There is a great many marvelous ways that text can empower the user. One way is plaintextaccounting.org , another is EMMS and even Emacs Artist. So my sugestion everyone on the IT sector is to orient the users. It is a labour of love. It is not only a labour of production. Production is necesary. But love goes a longer way (if coupled with production)! :-) ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Recommendations of LMS
You can use https://github.com/jkitchin/techela-emacs It will make a fully integrated sylabus, learning material, testing and grading tool. It takes work to learn. But the time invested will produce many times more free time and more personalized results (as everything is in Emacs). Disclosure: I have not tested it myself. But I have read the documentation. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Kindness as a replacement for Truth
This used to be [Practicality of GNU project and libre movement]. But since I was hijacking the thread and I did want to get more information about this, I made another thread. I did not put the usual [was: ...] on the subject to avoid making it too long. Miles Fidelman writes: > On 7/31/20 2:35 PM, quiliro wrote: > >> Miles Fidelman writes: >> >>> Well... I mean that coddling folks who loudly, and authoritatively >>> pronounce bullshit - particularly when stated as fact - I say shoot it >>> down, loudly, and often. (As opposed to canceling people, >>> "moderating" or otherwise censoring, or expelling people from groups. >>> I'm sorry, but I've come to favor bluntness over kindness, when >>> dealing with healthy adults.) >>> >>> Miles Fidelman >> I am strongly in favour of using more sincerity, even if it is rude. i >> also advocate to also stop censorship that is targeted against this >> rudeness. It is better to have these sincerity with freedom of >> expression than to be kind and untruthful. But, can't we have sincerity >> _and_ kindness? > > Good point. But that starts to be a cultural thing. > > I mean, those of us from NY tend to be rude, and just call bullshit, > bullshit. Folks from the South tend to say things like "well isn't > that precious" - but it still means "bullshit." The Japanese are > pretty good at giving folks a way to "save face" - but then you're > expected to go out and kill yourself, before people call you on your > (grave) mistakes. And then there are the French. :-) > > In a design review, one can be polite, or call someone a moron - but > ultimately it comes down to pointing out something that's broken. > Kind, might be providing a suggestion or a solution, and perhaps > phrasing it as "maybe you should consider doing instead of > " - but that's still putting someone on the spot, and presenting > as better or smarter. There's really not that really "kind." > > Now, if someone points at a perfectly good design, calls it crap, and > suggests something that's broken as an alternative - and then insists > on their correctness, leaning on their credentials as justification - > that person, IMO, deserves extremely UNKIND treatment. > > And, at some point it's hard to distinguish kindness from > participation trophies. I don't understand all of your statements because English is not my mother language. But 99% of them are clear to me. What I am not sure of is that "deserves [...] unkind treatment" (the uncapitalization is mine) would produce the desired results. Maybe someone would use being diplomatic in order to hide their attack on something or someone. But I think that assuming innocence is a good way to stop unjust accusations. I think that the attacks on Stallman were deliberate ways to raise the profile of someone that has no relevance on the news (as was the attacker's poor profile). But there is ample evidence of that. In this case, a lone message was enough to be sure? Was being blunt a good way to kill that sort of presumed hypocrisy? Would it bring the other people together for the dificult task of advocacy? I do agree like seeing someone is enraged at me, rather than diplomatically trick me into some scam. And I do support this attitude as a replacement for silence or trickery. But I do not see how people that are seduced by "kind communications" will understand they are better off when someone is sincere. That takes a lot of maturity. On the other hand, people who are affraid of hurting someone's feelings use this sort or strategy to avoid the opposite reaction they expect. Perhaps their intention is good and they are not sure of themselves enough to understand that the rudeness in reactions is not because of what they said, but because of the personal history of the hurt person. There are many possibilities. This is not an accusation against Miles. It is a discussion for my benefit (and others', if interested) about the false need to "be kind" as a replacement for direct sincere positions. Of course Tsun-tsu would disagree with me on this one. But I guess that war is not the place for community; or is it? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
writes: > GNU project needs to have clear concept of how it will generate funds > and incentivize people(reasonably talented) to create free software > and free hardware and it is not possible with "donations" and > "volunteers". It needs to get money with a significant business and > marketing force and needs to provide an alternative computer with > every component libre which can be used for some purpose like > designing (2D graphics with inkscape say). Products can be cheap with > minimal profits but profits must be present. > > Thanking you > Sagar Acharya Making a summary of everything... I think that if you consider this is a good strategy, why don't you build a company that sells GNU services? You could even advertize that you donate 90% of invoices to the GNU project. It is very hard to have other people implement our ideas. It is better to ask others which of those ideas they would support and go ahead and start with building them. I hope this helps. kindly and bluntly, Quiliro ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
jinnjus via libreplanet-discuss writes: > Well, I am new on the list too and got a lot out of this discussion > until it devolved into Miles bashing. I normally would agree with > kind communication, but in the context of the entire discussion one > email with a harsh but real criticism wasn't bothering me. It was a > valid opinion and well defended. The fact that there are several > people on the attack now instead of carrying on means I am hitting the > unsubscribe button. I'll keep running my little Free Software > activist project on my own from my solar powered RV for free and you > can have at it arguing about whether it's nice or not how you go about > talking about funding or not. > > Sorry guys I need to watch my exposure to unproductive negativity. Do > wish you the best and all successes though. I think this is intolerant. I prefer Miles' take. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
Miles Fidelman writes: > History suggests that fear is a far more effective motivator than > happiness. I heard once that fear is free (as in freedom). I am not sure why. It is a saying in Spanish. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
Miles Fidelman writes: > On 7/24/20 1:00 PM, Amin Bandali wrote: > >> Miles Fidelman writes: > Kindness & politeness are more appropriate, when someone is kind and > polite in the first place. > > When someone spouts bullshit with assumed authority - nah, IMO, > neither kindness nor politeness are called for. If anything, > tit-for-tat is the appropriate response. > > Now, if the OP had started with a slightly more humble attitude, and > asked questions - that would have been a different situation. I did not see OP's message as you see it. I think that before judging someone's thoughts, feelings and forms of communication, you should investigate more. You should ask questions before you jump to conclusions about the position they have. Maybe it was just ignorance. But it is not a crime to be ignorant. I suppose you are ignorant in some sense, as we all are. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
Miles Fidelman writes: > Well... I mean that coddling folks who loudly, and authoritatively > pronounce bullshit - particularly when stated as fact - I say shoot it > down, loudly, and often. (As opposed to canceling people, > "moderating" or otherwise censoring, or expelling people from groups. > I'm sorry, but I've come to favor bluntness over kindness, when > dealing with healthy adults.) > > Miles Fidelman I am strongly in favour of using more sincerity, even if it is rude. i also advocate to also stop censorship that is targeted against this rudeness. It is better to have these sincerity with freedom of expression than to be kind and untruthful. But, can't we have sincerity _and_ kindness? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Sacrifices made for Free Software
LM writes: > I really don't understand, why is the FSF petitioning schools ( > https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/sign-this-petition-for-freedom-in-the-classroom > ) to use Free Software if there is no available Free Software > alternative for what they're specifically looking for and the schools > cannot afford and do not have the expertise or resources to create a > Free alternative of their own? I agree that asking someone who does not have the tools to do a certain task has a very low success rate. > If the FSF expects the average school to change, they need to give > more aid than just educating schools about the advantages of Free > Software. Many schools simply don't have the resources to write their > own Free Software. It's fine to tell a programmer, if you want > something done, do it yourself. That doesn't work well for a school. If the school does not have the resources, that is no excuse to make the users pay the price. There is a price the school and the users are paying. They just don't notice that revenue is being generated someway, besides the fact that they are paying with serfdom also. I do agree that the FSF should not ask users to use non-existant free software for a certain task. But they could certainly ask the school to use the existing free software and try to cooperate with others with same needs for developing the non-existant free software. I hope my contribution is useful. Cheers. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Sacrifices made for Free Software
LM writes: > So, here's an opportunity to give a school an alternative to a > non-Free product and promote Free Software. I don't think it is an opportunity for us unless we get retributions. I do think that it is good for someone to have freedom. But that does not mean that the people who promote freedom are benefited for it. When someone uses nonfree software, they benefit the developer and the promoter (usually). But with free software, it is the other way around. It is the developer and the promoter that benefit the user. It is the ethical way to distribute software. But that does not mean per is obliged to produce or distribute per work without charging for it. It is our wish that all people are free. And it would help free software users that there is a critical mass of users for every niche. But the main source of benefit for the pushers of freedom is cooperation from the users, not just use. Use does not contribute to produce more free software. In fact, it is a payload that we must carry. But we do it gladly! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Open voting platform for the 2020 election - volunteers needed
Chris Franklin writes: > Thank you Chris for thinking about democracy as a result of libre > software. > I also like your campaign. If I would live in the USA, I would vote for > you for your healthy social values. > Please consider that voting electronically would reveal the identity of > voters and direction of their votes individually. Perhaps providing a > token to vote and making it impossible to identify specifically with the > voter's choice would work to preserve privacy. But I am not clear how > or if that would work. > Using a token is definitely a possibility, and, used in combination > with other technologies as well as the incorporation of time and > method as variables, we’d already be most of the way to a > reasonably-secure solution. > It's important to remember that identity and intent (the two primary > factors here) are processed billions of times daily in the form of > credit card transactions, so this project is absolutely feasible with > the proper focus and effort. A caveat: I am not a programer. I am just a newbie. Using a token could restrict each voter to emit only one vote. The token must be as generic as a coin is in order to keep the privacy of the vote. The user could use it as they would want. (They could even sell it. Obviously we don't want that. Or do we?) The would be: 1) Every voter receives one generic token for each vote (one for each policy). 2) That token is used to vote. That's the only way I can envision private electronic voting. Otherwise, the voting system can know who voted for what. I am not sure if the votation order could reveal who voted for what. But that is an easier issue. There can be ways to mangle the data. Databases are exact, estimates are not. I think there are already a bunch of voting software. But I have not heard about a privacy-respecting or auditable electronic-voting software. With respect to the auditability of electronic-voting, please consider Richard Stallman's opinion on the subject (as was referenced by Adonay Felipe Nogueira on a hyperlink): "How can you tell if a voting machine will honestly count the votes? You'd have to study the program that's running in it during the election, which of course nobody can do, and most people wouldn't even know how to do. But even the experts who might theoretically be capable of studying the program, they can't do it while people are voting. They'd have to do it in advance, and then how do they know that the program they studied is the one that's running while people vote? Maybe it's been changed." How do you propose we contend this problem? Maybe there is a common sense solution or maybe there is a very complicated IT solution. But I have not seen either yet. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Open voting platform for the 2020 election - volunteers needed
Thank you Chris for thinking about democracy as a result of libre software. I also like your campaign. If I would live in the USA, I would vote for you for your healthy social values. Please consider that voting electronically would reveal the identity of voters and direction of their votes individually. Perhaps providing a token to vote and making it impossible to identify specifically with the voter's choice would work to preserve privacy. But I am not clear how or if that would work. Keep on hacking (using wit for playfully solving problems)! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Sacrifices made for Free Software
Incredible story. I am really proud to hear stories from people that have stood up to the system, even at a high cost. The best software engineer is not the one which knows more about software. Although knowing about software is very important, your boss or your customer would rather hire an honest person rather than a more capable one. So having values is a great asset you can put on your resume. More so, having free software experience gives you better knowledge and capability than with nonfree software. So it gives you adouble certification there. Much better than a college degree that every other Joe can get! I suggest you write a letter to some media which the university student recruiters encounter. Mention thanking the university for putting to test your values and making you a better professional by exerting this type of pressure on you. I suggest you are very diplomatic so your voice is valued by people that might be interested in entering SIUe. Be sure to explain the issue in layman terms. This letter will prove very useful for advocacy of free software. Maybe it would even serve to market your availability for hiring! Congratulations and happy hacking! Quiliro ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: virtual meetings
Thank you for your report, Hector. I have problems with Jitsi because my machine is old, I presume (with Core2 processor and 3GB RAM). I am currently testing Toxic. But, there are other clients for using TOX P2P protocol. https://tox.chat/clients.html ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: VPS providers with libre or no JS
Roberto Beltran via libreplanet-discuss writes: >> Do you really need a VPS, or is self-hosting an option? > > I'm trying to run instances of stuff (like nextcloud, searx, matrix, > whatever) and maybe roll out some original stuff, but I don't think > running something out of where I live right now is an option Why? Running a VPS is a non-sovereign path. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: purism why does fsf and libreplanet embrace a misleading company?
I think that a certification does not need evidence to prove non-compliance. It needs evidence to prove it complies. A certification from an organization must never lose the trust people have about its tight and ongoing certification requirements. Otherwise, the name of the certification is worthless and the organization's name is downplayed; it represents nothing. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
0G: Escaping the Surveillance Black Hole
I cannot see Alexandre Oliva's talk about 0G and espaping the surveillance black hole http://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/pub/0G in the LP 2020 program https://libreplanet.org/2020/program/ It is weird to see that the President in charge of FSF currently is not going to talk at Libre Planet 2020. Is anybody else thinking the same things that I am? Happy hacking! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Novice computer users!
This is such a great summary! Thank you very much Jean Louis for your contribution. :-) Jean Louis writes: > * Marcus Wilson [2020-01-27 21:07]: >>Is this too advanced for the new user? >> >>[1]https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Debian > > WikiHow has spying scripts with information being shared to Amazon, > DoubleClick, Google, etc. I would not recommend to a new user of free > software a website that spies on them. And I would tell why, and > explain it why, which I do all the time. Often people ask me if I have > Whatsapp - I give them reasons why I don't have, first it is > proprietary software, I don't know and cannot know what it is doing > with my information, second Whatsapp has thousands of staff members, > and I don't know even one of them, why should I entrust them with my > data? I don't trust somebody on street to give them my data, I cannot > trust to Whatsapp. > > The first website to present to users is GNU: https://www.gnu.org/ > > and then what is Free Software: > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > The GNU website does not spy on people, and does not use non-free > Javascript software. > > Installing any operating system is not an easy task. > > Yet the FSF endorsed free operating system distributions do have their > installation instructions. > > PureOS: > https://tracker.pureos.net/w/installation_guide/ > > Trisquel: > https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/setup > > Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre: > https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:guide:installation=1 > > Parabola: > https://wiki.parabola.nu/Main_Page > > I would recommend exlusively FSF endorsed GNU operating system > distributions, such as those above, or listed here: > https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html > > Debian is distributing non-free software from their servers, so when > helping somebody to get free software, it would be good to tell them > about the truly free operating system distributions, and why they are > endorsed, and why some of them are not endorsed. See: > https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html > > Teaching people about free software is part of my personal duty. Thus > without teaching them the differences, I am not installing anything on > their computers. Person shall know why is using free software, and > should not just target that "new software" as "gratis" software for > reasons that it need not pay for it, or for reasons that there is > plethora of software that one cannot otherwise get on Windows. Those > are common problems. > > The first and main reason to install that new software shall be reason > that it is free software, that user can study and upgrade it easily, > get support from other people, that user can become eventually > programmer, and can contribute to development of such free software, > and other reasons explained on > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > And if we speak of free software, then they shall be told what is GNU > and how GNU started. Thus reference to main GNU website is of highest > importance. > >>Sometimes people might find the task of making a bootable USB drive or >>CD or DVD a bit too dificult. In that case you could also point them at >>vendors of installation media. > > In general, operating system installation is not easy task. > > Jean > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Bring Libre Planet to 6350 million people
I would like to advocate for more people to attend the videoconferences of Libre Planet 2020. So I thought it would be motivating to translate past conferences. The first step would be to transcibe them. It would also serve those with hearing disability. If anyone would like to volunteer, please transcribe your favorite talk from media.libreplanet.org. Freedom and accessibility are very important. Everyone should have the chance to have them. 6300 million people do not speak English and 500 million people have hearing disabilities. (Most of the deaf are also non-English speakers.) Thank you very much to those who volunteer for helping to bring freedom and access to all these people. :-) ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Request Advice for Work Meeting on Why use GNU+Linux
Roberto Beltran via libreplanet-discuss writes: >> - Engineer concerns about support, not so much security, as we can lock it >> down > - Ethics of allowing a machine with patient data outside enterprise > standards and support. > > It looks like the main reservation is ITs inability to support > desktop/laptop GNU systems. I don't think they can be blamed for this > because you can't know everything out here, but there should be some > way to address this. Lily: Thank you for your great report. It is really useful. It shows how you are strong and at the same time gentle. Roberto: I agree about the support for desktops concern by the support team. Lily: It can be mitigated if you are willing to assume support for your own machine. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Libre web front-end
El 2019-11-13 09:14, Roberto Beltran escribió: >> Sure. The absolutely necessary operations that the users cannot be do >> themselves must unavoidably be on the server. But the game can in fact >> be operated on the users' machines. > > I don't know this because Mary-Anne hasn't disclosed the details of > her game. If it can be all operated on the users' machines, then it's > still okay for it to be a browser game if it's all front-end code with > a free license. My only and initial point is that there is no freedom > reason to insist that the game not be a browser game at all. I agree. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Libre web front-end
El 2019-11-12 11:08, Roberto Beltran escribió: >> If the code is not released, it is not under the control of the user. >> Service as a Software Substitute (SaaSS) is a risk. > > Even if the code is released it's still not under the control of the > "user" if you mean the gamer. The actual user of the back-end software > is the server operator. The user of the game is the gamer. He must be free. The server operator is not a game user. > There is no ethical basis for the gamer having > control over the server (someone else's computer). Not control over the server, but over the game he is playing. It must be the software that serves the user, not the user that serves the software, even if it were gratis. Interaction with other players is another issue which is desirable to be in control of the users because the server does not need to control such interaction, only to facilitate it. > I agree that SaaSS > is bad, but if the back-end is a service that is not a software > substitute, then there is no issue from a strictly freedom standpoint. Sure. The absolutely necessary operations that the users cannot be do themselves must unavoidably be on the server. But the game can in fact be operated on the users' machines. Lets not be tricked by SaaSS operators who try to draw a line closer and closer to having control over our computing. They hire the most intelligent people to lure us into servitude. It is very tempting because it is usually the most comfortable route. But we must resist fiercely and net give away our freedom for any reason. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Libre web front-end
El 2019-11-12 00:53, Roberto Beltran escribió: >> Even though browsers are a very useful tool for distributing >> applications without the need to install them locally, they are also a >> risk for users to lose their freedom, since they can use nonfree >> software. And even if the software (JavaScript) is released as free >> software, it is not under their control because it is on the server, not >> on the client. > > There are plenty of libre browsers and if the game is either all > front-end or uses backend as a service (playing with other people for > example) then there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, she not under > an ethical obligation to release the back-end code in that case > (though it would be nice/cool). If the code is not released, it is not under the control of the user. Service as a Software Substitute (SaaSS) is a risk. Software and hardware must be under the control of the user. We have achieved this with software. The hardware is the next frontier. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Libre web front-end
El 2019-11-09 14:08, MARY-ANNE WOLF escribió: > If I wanted to write a game that people could play in their browser. >and I wanted people who were concerned about libre software and their >privacy to be able to play, what technology could I use? Very nice contribution. Games are the best way for learning things. :-) Even though browsers are a very useful tool for distributing applications without the need to install them locally, they are also a risk for users to lose their freedom, since they can use nonfree software. And even if the software (JavaScript) is released as free software, it is not under their control because it is on the server, not on the client. So in summary, if your objective is to give users freedom, make free software which is easy to install on people's computers. This will achieve the objective of JavaScript of being easy to install and of freedom by being free software on giving the user freedom by being installed on the user's computer. This would also provido more privacy, if the data is not transmitted to other parties. To answer your question about which technology to use, it is very linked to the knowledge you have of computing. If you would have asked me about this a month ago, I would have answered Guile because it has a good integration with other languages which would bring it to avoid eventual death (like all technologies) or even Rust. But lately I have discovered that Guile is led by people who do not support the vision of freedom which has been able to sustain the possibility of freedom in the 21st century by these devs' intent to debunk Richard Stallman from GNU. I have heard Rust has its own downsides from the point of view of freedom. https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:main:rusts_freedom_flaws So I am not sided with any technology right now. All I know is that freedom needs us now more than ever that fascism has been able to divide the activists between them. We need to use and defend software which respects people's rights, whether this software has better quality and price (than the freedom attacking software) or it is of inferior quality and higher price. Good luck and thank you for helping us have a free future. Quiliro ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: “should have had a warning / apology”
> And I generally do apologies (and promote such habits) when I use or > prompt others to engage with entities I feel are harmful overall. To be > specific to software freedom, instead of an absolute of never suggesting > or using any proprietary software ever, I make compromises to be > practical but I *acknowledge* and *apologize* for them. They aren't my > fault, but I'm promoting *awareness* of the problem and refusing to > spread the idea that using non-free software is just fine and normal. This sounds as a good policy to have. I will adopt it myself. Thank you for the tip. ___ Discussion mailing list discuss...@lists.fsfellowship.eu https://lists.fsfellowship.eu/mailman/listinfo/discussion ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: ‘censorship’
El 2019-10-10 21:05, Adam Van Ymeren escribió: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 4:48 PM Dmitry Alexandrov <[1]321...@gmail.com> >wrote: > > David <[2]postmas...@customer-opinions.net> wrote: > > Calling such actions "censorship" is a very extreme reaction IMHO > as the very same core points could have been made in a less > excitable manner without potential breaching of the above linked > guidelines and thus without triggering any negative actions. > That’s curious. Could you elaborate, please, why censoring due to > form rather than due to substance is not censorship? No dictionary > available to me suggest it. > >There is a difference between censorship and moderation. If you want a >dictionary definition: >Censor (verb) - to examine in order to suppress or delete anything >considered objectionable >[3]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/censor >Moderate (verb) - avoiding extremes of behavior or expression : >observing reasonable limit >[4]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moderate >Nobody can define with absolute clarity where the distinction is. >Sometimes the situation is obvious, other times it is more nuanced. I >don't envy the role of a moderator on an internet mailing list but I am >happy that they exist. If libreplanet-discuss were completely >un-moderated and open to any and all trolls to spew whatever >inflammatory nonsense they wish, then it would very quickly cease to be >a useful place of discussion and I personally would unsubscribe. >It is not censorship for moderators of libreplanet-discuss to decide >not to forward your message to everyone who has joined the list. >Almost every online community needs some level of moderation. You are >always welcome to write and publish your opinions through you own >platform, which thanks to technology and libre software is easier today >than it has ever been in human history. Who is it to be the censor? The majority? The moderator? Why would a majority or a moderator be correct and the censored incorrect? I think that trolls are persons that are called that way by the people that do not want them to speak because they feel the sensation of control loss. If someone leaves a list because someone else thinks differently, that person must reinforce their own self esteem by recognizing that other peolpe's views (even if incorrect) are acceptable as their own, and not by blocking their expression. If you want a kind environment, you make it so, not other people. Controlling other people does not make a better or safe environment. It makes an oppressive environment which is in practice very unsafe. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Orwellian ?
On Wed, October 9, 2019 8:34 pm, Deb Nicholson wrote: >Folks should make sure they aren't posting to the shadow threads that >were sent to addresses someone scraped and posted to independently. You mean that it is the wrong address they wrote to to? Please answer my question. I mean not to hurt. I would just like to know if there is censorship on this list and if so, why would it be. Note English is not my mother language. So I might be using inappropriate words. I am sorry if that is the case. >On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 3:51 PM <[1]quil...@riseup.net> wrote: > > Why is this censorship occurring? > On Wed, October 9, 2019 10:37 am, Daniel Pocock wrote: > > > > > > On 09/10/2019 15:51, Luis Falcon wrote: > >> I sent this message this morning (London time). > >> > >> It does not seem it has arrived yet ;-) > >> > > > > > > Every message I sent to libreplanet-discuss since 23 September has > been > > blocked > > > > Somebody unsubscribed me without consent > > > > When I post there, I get replies like this and the only workaround > is to > > BCC everybody, as described in my blog > > > > > [2]https://danielpocock.com/freedom-and-censorship-on-mailing-lists/ > > > > This tastes more like martial law than free as in freedom > > > > > > > > Forwarded Message > > Subject: Request to mailing list libreplanet-discuss rejected > > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 10:33:13 -0400 > > From: [3]libreplanet-discuss-ow...@libreplanet.org > > To: [4]dan...@pocock.pro > > > > Your request to the libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > > > Posting of your message titled "Re: [libreplanet-discuss] > exposure > > to lynchings in free software communities" > > > > has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the > > following reason for rejecting your request: > > > > "Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list." > > > > Any questions or comments should be directed to the list > administrator > > at: > > > > [5]libreplanet-discuss-ow...@libreplanet.org > > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > [6]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > [7]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus > s > > References > >1. mailto:quil...@riseup.net >2. https://danielpocock.com/freedom-and-censorship-on-mailing-lists/ >3. mailto:libreplanet-discuss-ow...@libreplanet.org >4. mailto:dan...@pocock.pro >5. mailto:libreplanet-discuss-ow...@libreplanet.org >6. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org >7. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Orwellian ?
Why is this censorship occurring? On Wed, October 9, 2019 10:37 am, Daniel Pocock wrote: > > > On 09/10/2019 15:51, Luis Falcon wrote: >> I sent this message this morning (London time). >> >> It does not seem it has arrived yet ;-) >> > > > Every message I sent to libreplanet-discuss since 23 September has been > blocked > > Somebody unsubscribed me without consent > > When I post there, I get replies like this and the only workaround is to > BCC everybody, as described in my blog > > https://danielpocock.com/freedom-and-censorship-on-mailing-lists/ > > This tastes more like martial law than free as in freedom > > > > Forwarded Message > Subject: Request to mailing list libreplanet-discuss rejected > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 10:33:13 -0400 > From: libreplanet-discuss-ow...@libreplanet.org > To: dan...@pocock.pro > > Your request to the libreplanet-discuss mailing list > > Posting of your message titled "Re: [libreplanet-discuss] exposure > to lynchings in free software communities" > > has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the > following reason for rejecting your request: > > "Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list." > > Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator > at: > > libreplanet-discuss-ow...@libreplanet.org > ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
