regression examples
Hi Joe,
good to have a x-staff tuplet example. Can you also add a docstring to
the example, ie
\header { texidoc = ... }
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Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
Hi,
Hopefully this won't be rocking the boat too much, but I'd like to
open a small discussion about reorganizing the contents of the \paper
block.
Section 11.1.2 Page formatting lists 27 \paper settings:
first-page-number
print-first-page-number
print-page-number
paper-width
paper-height
top-margin
bottom-margin
left-margin
line-width
head-separation
foot-separation
page-top-space
ragged-bottom
ragged-last-bottom
system-count
between-system-space
between-system-padding
horizontal-shift
after-title-space
before-title-space
between-title-space
printallheaders
systemSeparatorMarkup
blank-page-force
blank-last-page-force
page-spacing-weight
auto-first-page-number
Seems to me that in most programs, stuff like paper dimensions and
margins are included in a page setup dialog somewhere, but that stuff
having to do with headers and footers and titles and other types of
text usually lives somewhere else. So, when I look at these 27 \paper
settings, I see them organizing into something like the following
categories:
Two settings for the physical paper itself:
paper-width
paper-height
Four settings for margins (closely related to the physical paper):
top-margin
bottom-margin
left-margin
line-width (instead of right-margin)
Seven settings for headers and footers:
first-page-number
print-first-page-number
print-page-number
auto-first-page-number
head-separation
foot-separation
printallheaders
Three for titles (which are text and probably a type of one-time header):
after-title-space
before-title-space
between-title-space
Six for the (mostly vertical, but one horizontal) layout of systems:
ragged-bottom
ragged-last-bottom
system-count
between-system-space
between-system-padding
horizontal-shift
And three page-layout settings that probably influence decisions about
pageBreaks:
blank-page-force
blank-last-page-force
page-spacing-weight
These settings are all important and are certainly possible to lay out
score with sucessfully.
Maybe the settings would be easier to find and make more conceptual
sense like this?
Strip \paper down to settings pertaining to paper:
\paper {
paper-width
paper-height
top-margin
bottom-margin
left-margin
right-margin (new; line-width moves elsewhere?)
}
Move over the settings having to do with page layout into the \layout block:
\layout {
ragged-bottom
ragged-last-bottom
system-count
between-system-space
between-system-padding
horizontal-shift
blank-page-force
blank-last-page-force
page-spacing-weight
}
And create a new block for headers and footers:
\headers-and-footers {
first-page-number
print-first-page-number
print-page-number
auto-first-page-number
head-separation
foot-separation
print-all-headers (iso printallheaders)
after-title-space
before-title-space
between-title-space
}
Does this add value? Or just create a huge mess?
I wouldn't ask except for the fact that I've now been laying out score
very successfully with lily for going on two years and I still have to
stop and ask myself Hmm ... I'm wanting to pad systems on the page so
that they lay out more loosely. So that concerns layout and I'll look
for settings over here in the \layout block. Oh wait. Settings for
system layout live in the \paper block ...
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Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
Trevor Bača escreveu: I wouldn't ask except for the fact that I've now been laying out score very successfully with lily for going on two years and I still have to stop and ask myself Hmm ... I'm wanting to pad systems on the page so that they lay out more loosely. So that concerns layout and I'll look for settings over here in the \layout block. Oh wait. Settings for system layout live in the \paper block ... the \layout block only affects what's in a score. Page layout (margins, titles, etc) fall outside that and therefore are in the \paper block. Perhaps better names can be found for paper/layout; suggestions appreciated. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen LilyPond Software Design -- Code for Music Notation http://www.lilypond-design.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
On 2/7/07, Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Trevor Bača escreveu: I wouldn't ask except for the fact that I've now been laying out score very successfully with lily for going on two years and I still have to stop and ask myself Hmm ... I'm wanting to pad systems on the page so that they lay out more loosely. So that concerns layout and I'll look for settings over here in the \layout block. Oh wait. Settings for system layout live in the \paper block ... the \layout block only affects what's in a score. Page layout (margins, titles, etc) fall outside that and therefore are in the \paper block. Perhaps better names can be found for paper/layout; suggestions appreciated. Hmmm. Just thinking out loud here ... so there's an inside-of-score / outside-of-score dichotomy going on here. I don't think I had ever realized that ... So that means that ragged-right (which currently lives in \layout) is perceived as inside-of-score, whereas ragged-bottom (which currently lives in \paper) is outside-of-score? -- Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
Trevor Bača escreveu:
On 2/7/07, Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Trevor Bača escreveu:
I wouldn't ask except for the fact that I've now been laying out score
very successfully with lily for going on two years and I still have to
stop and ask myself Hmm ... I'm wanting to pad systems on the page so
that they lay out more loosely. So that concerns layout and I'll look
for settings over here in the \layout block. Oh wait. Settings for
system layout live in the \paper block ...
the \layout block only affects what's in a score. Page layout (margins,
titles, etc) fall outside that and therefore are in the \paper block.
Perhaps better names can be found for paper/layout; suggestions
appreciated.
Hmmm.
Just thinking out loud here ... so there's an inside-of-score /
outside-of-score dichotomy going on here. I don't think I had ever
realized that ...
So that means that ragged-right (which currently lives in \layout) is
perceived as inside-of-score, whereas ragged-bottom (which currently
lives in \paper) is outside-of-score?
yes. However, \layout settings default to what is in the \paper block,
so ragged-right may also be defined in the \paper{} block.
--
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Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
On 2/7/07, Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Trevor Bača escreveu:
On 2/7/07, Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Trevor Bača escreveu:
I wouldn't ask except for the fact that I've now been laying out score
very successfully with lily for going on two years and I still have to
stop and ask myself Hmm ... I'm wanting to pad systems on the page so
that they lay out more loosely. So that concerns layout and I'll look
for settings over here in the \layout block. Oh wait. Settings for
system layout live in the \paper block ...
the \layout block only affects what's in a score. Page layout (margins,
titles, etc) fall outside that and therefore are in the \paper block.
Perhaps better names can be found for paper/layout; suggestions
appreciated.
Hmmm.
Just thinking out loud here ... so there's an inside-of-score /
outside-of-score dichotomy going on here. I don't think I had ever
realized that ...
So that means that ragged-right (which currently lives in \layout) is
perceived as inside-of-score, whereas ragged-bottom (which currently
lives in \paper) is outside-of-score?
yes. However, \layout settings default to what is in the \paper block,
so ragged-right may also be defined in the \paper{} block.
OK.
Hm. So ragged-right can live in the *\layout* block (and have
score-level scope). Or ragged-right can live in the *\paper* block
(and have file-level scope).
Would it make more sense to have the idea that ragged-right only ever
live in a \layout block, together with the companion idea that there
can be both score-level \layout blocks and also one file-level \layout
block?
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Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
On 2/7/07, Kress, Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think Han-Wen said it himself (though he didn't realize it).
I like the idea if \paper being as you described (with just the six
properties).
Me too. I think that greatly clears up what belongs in the \paper
block -- just stuff that has to do with the physical dimensions and
printable area of actual paper.
Put all the other stuff (the outside-the-score layout stuff) in a new block
called \page-layout
Maybe, if folks get too confused between \page-layout and \layout, the
\layout block can be moved inside the \score block since that's what it
applies to the most. It might also be that a \layout block that is outside
a \score block (for the purposes of a global style) could be renamed to
\score-layout.
So what do think about dividing the outside-of-score stuff into two
categories? Because it seems like maybe these two lists of settings do
different things:
list 1:
ragged-bottom
ragged-last-bottom
system-count
between-system-space
between-system-padding
horizontal-shift
blank-page-force
blank-last-page-force
page-spacing-weight
list 2:
first-page-number
print-first-page-number
print-page-number
auto-first-page-number
head-separation
foot-separation
print-all-headers (iso printallheaders)
after-title-space
before-title-space
between-title-space
Right now both list 1 and list 2 will just be put together into the
outside-of-score (\paper) bucket.
But it seems that may list 1 is really concerned with the *the layout
of music on the page* whereas list 2 is concerned with *adding headers
and footers outside the music*.
So does it make sense to divide list 1 and list 2? And if so, with what names?
Just some qd thoughts...
Stephen
-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
on behalf of Trevor Baca
Sent: Wed 2/7/2007 12:47 PM
To: Han-Wen Nienhuys
Cc: lilypond-devel; lilypond-user
Subject: Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
On 2/7/07, Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Trevor Baca escreveu:
On 2/7/07, Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Trevor Baca escreveu:
I wouldn't ask except for the fact that I've now been laying out
score
very successfully with lily for going on two years and I still have
to
stop and ask myself Hmm ... I'm wanting to pad systems on the page
so
that they lay out more loosely. So that concerns layout and I'll
look
for settings over here in the \layout block. Oh wait. Settings for
system layout live in the \paper block ...
the \layout block only affects what's in a score. Page layout
(margins,
titles, etc) fall outside that and therefore are in the \paper block.
Perhaps better names can be found for paper/layout; suggestions
appreciated.
Hmmm.
Just thinking out loud here ... so there's an inside-of-score /
outside-of-score dichotomy going on here. I don't think I had ever
realized that ...
So that means that ragged-right (which currently lives in \layout) is
perceived as inside-of-score, whereas ragged-bottom (which currently
lives in \paper) is outside-of-score?
yes. However, \layout settings default to what is in the \paper block,
so ragged-right may also be defined in the \paper{} block.
OK.
Hm. So ragged-right can live in the *\layout* block (and have
score-level scope). Or ragged-right can live in the *\paper* block
(and have file-level scope).
Would it make more sense to have the idea that ragged-right only ever
live in a \layout block, together with the companion idea that there
can be both score-level \layout blocks and also one file-level \layout
block?
--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
2007-02-07, 13:02:32
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Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
On 2/7/07, Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2/7/07, Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Trevor Bača escreveu:
On 2/7/07, Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Trevor Bača escreveu:
I wouldn't ask except for the fact that I've now been laying out score
very successfully with lily for going on two years and I still have to
stop and ask myself Hmm ... I'm wanting to pad systems on the page so
that they lay out more loosely. So that concerns layout and I'll look
for settings over here in the \layout block. Oh wait. Settings for
system layout live in the \paper block ...
the \layout block only affects what's in a score. Page layout (margins,
titles, etc) fall outside that and therefore are in the \paper block.
Perhaps better names can be found for paper/layout; suggestions
appreciated.
Hmmm.
Just thinking out loud here ... so there's an inside-of-score /
outside-of-score dichotomy going on here. I don't think I had ever
realized that ...
So that means that ragged-right (which currently lives in \layout) is
perceived as inside-of-score, whereas ragged-bottom (which currently
lives in \paper) is outside-of-score?
yes. However, \layout settings default to what is in the \paper block,
so ragged-right may also be defined in the \paper{} block.
OK.
Hm. So ragged-right can live in the *\layout* block (and have
score-level scope). Or ragged-right can live in the *\paper* block
(and have file-level scope).
Would it make more sense to have the idea that ragged-right only ever
live in a \layout block, together with the companion idea that there
can be both score-level \layout blocks and also one file-level \layout
block?
Question for anyone who can answer: are there *any* settings that
*can* go in a score-level \layout block but *can not* go in the
top-level \paper block?
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Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
On 2/7/07, Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Question for anyone who can answer: are there *any* settings that
*can* go in a score-level \layout block but *can not* go in the
top-level \paper block?
Second question: why do the top-level
\layout { ragged-right = ##t }
and
\paper { ragged-right = ##t }
have exactly the same effect on the output in the following file?
%%% BEGIN %%%
\version 2.11.16
% these have exactly the same effect, no matter which one is commented out
%\layout { ragged-right = ##t }
\paper { ragged-right = ##t }
\score {
\new Staff {
c'1 \break c'1
}
}
\score {
\new Staff {
d'1 \break d'1
}
\layout { ragged-right = ##f }
}
%%% END %%%
I'm used to thinking of ragged-right as a layout setting. But,
apparently, ragged-right can go in either the (top-level) \paper or
(top-level) \layout block equally. Why is this allowed? Is there some
benefit?
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Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
Trevor Bača escreveu: Right now both list 1 and list 2 will just be put together into the outside-of-score (\paper) bucket. But it seems that may list 1 is really concerned with the *the layout of music on the page* whereas list 2 is concerned with *adding headers and footers outside the music*. So does it make sense to divide list 1 and list 2? And if so, with what names? I think this doesn't make sense. There are two output-def objects with nested scope. Variables that by their nature have \book-wide effect, go into the outer scope, variables that are score-wide may be put in the inner scope. If that confuses you, it might be a better idea to rename \layout and \paper to better reflect this. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen LilyPond Software Design -- Code for Music Notation http://www.lilypond-design.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
Trevor Bača escreveu: Question for anyone who can answer: are there *any* settings that *can* go in a score-level \layout block but *can not* go in the top-level \paper block? No, not that I know. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen LilyPond Software Design -- Code for Music Notation http://www.lilypond-design.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
Trevor Bača escreveu:
I'm used to thinking of ragged-right as a layout setting. But,
apparently, ragged-right can go in either the (top-level) \paper or
(top-level) \layout block equally. Why is this allowed? Is there some
benefit?
As I said, the scoping is nested at runtime: if a lookup in \layout of a
\score fails, it is looked up in the \paper{} of the enclosing \book block.
(in a lot of cases, the \book block is implicit, and supplied by lilypond)
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RE: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
My suggestion:
\paper {}
paper-width
paper-height
top-margin
bottom-margin
left-margin
\page-layout{}
first-page-number
print-first-page-number
print-page-number
auto-first-page-number
head-separation
foot-separation
printallheaders
after-title-space
before-title-space
between-title-space
blank-page-force
blank-last-page-force
\music-layout{} or \system-layout{}
indent
line-width
ragged-bottom
ragged-last-bottom
system-count
between-system-space
between-system-padding
horizontal-shift
page-spacing-weight
ragged-right
ragged-last
systemSeparatorMarkup (should be changed to system-separator-markup?)
Carl Sorensen
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Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
Hi, all! What about unifying \paper and \layout into a single \layout directive, such that in the input language there is no syntactical difference any more between \paper and \layout block? (Of course, in the implementation, the different scopes still could be kept.) Then the place where the \layout occurs in the .ly file determines which properties can be changed (that is exactly what scopes are about). Obviously, if someone operates in the wrong scope, i.e. if someone tries to change things on score level \layout block which only should be changed globally (such as paper margin), lily should emit a warning. Greetings, Juergen ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
David Rogers wrote: The correct answer is (I believe) exactly as you proposed earlier. Talking about Lilypond's internal logic is IMHO counterproductive. In fact, internally, I suspect Lilypond should stay the same - it just needs to allow the user to use it effectively by making (or even just *allowing*) the logical separation between paper, headers, and music, which you already outlined. It would be great if we could also leave the current mechanism in place if we do such a change. The system made sense to me from the beginning and I'd prefer to think in terms of scope (I have a strong programming background). I don't oppose a division on its merits, but it would be nice if the format would stay the same. Cheers, Bryan... ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
On 2/7/07, David Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:45:26 -0600, Trevor Bača wrote:
And now I see why Han-Wen keeps inviting a name change of the \paper
and \layout buckets (while implicitly discouraging the moving around
of settings between those two buckets): the buckets show the *scope*
of the different settings, which isn't really an attribute that can be
easily changed.
OK. I get it. Now I see why the task is a renaming task rather than a
moving-around task.
Hm ... more thinking ...
The way this is typed in an input file has to make sense to the user. The user
should not be required to think like a computer. It has taken you, an obvious
expert, months and months to get his head around this. I never got it at all
until you explained it.
The correct answer is (I believe) exactly as you proposed earlier. Talking
about Lilypond's internal logic is IMHO counterproductive. In fact, internally,
I suspect Lilypond should stay the same - it just needs to allow the user to
use it effectively by making (or even just *allowing*) the logical separation
between paper, headers, and music, which you already outlined.
Hi David, hi list,
I'm *definitely* in favor of clarifying the daylights out of what's
going on here with the different settings. They're *so* powerful but
very much in need of doc clarification.
However, I really do think we can have our cake (clear delineation of
functionality in a user-centric way that fits the problem domain of
engraving score) and eat it too (preserve the CSS-style overrides of
settings that Han-Wen has been explaining).
(BTW, the reason I've been cluttering up everyone's inbox here with so
much of this is that I've given myself the task of rewriting both the
vertical spacing docs in chapter 11 and also the proportional spacing
stuff, too. And, as it turns out, those things both hinge crucially on
two concepts -- the settings that started this thread, and also line-
and page-breaking. So this is all part of peeling back the onion to
hopefully get a good an even more accurate set of docs for vertical
and horizontal spacing.)
So how to have our cake and eat it too?
What if we start (and hear me out here because I know it sounds weird)
with abolishing the distinction between \paper and \layout altogether.
Just forget they ever existed. And let's instead create a generic
\settings block where we can make any of the 30 or 40 settings that
currently live today in either \paper or \layout. Oh, and we'll allow
ourselves to instantiate a \settings block at any of the three lexical
levels of scope allowed for in an .ly file -- at score-level, at
book-level, and at top-level:
%%% BEGIN GENERIC SETTINGS BLOCK %%%
\settings { } % these are top-level settings
\book {
\settings { } % these are book-level settings
\score {
\new Staff { c'4 }
\settings { } % these are score-level settings
}
}
%%% END %%%
Now with this structure it's at least 100% clear how the three
different possible \settings blocks all interact with each other:
1. lily first checks for a value at score-level; if found, use that
value, otherwise ...
2. check for the value at book-level; if found, use that value, otherwise ...
3. check for the value at top-level; if found, use that value,
otherwise use the system default value.
Pefectly clean, perfectly clear. And the term \settings doesn't
confuse anyone by making us wonder how it is that the different
settings can relate to each other. They're just settings. Big bags of
settings. Some deal with padding between systems, some deal with the
text used to render the composer's name.
But what about the (semantic) grouping that I started this thread
with? Doesn't it still make sense to group, for example, these ...
ragged-bottom
ragged-last-bottom
system-count
between-system-space
between-system-padding
horizontal-shift
... settings together somehow? I mean, these things actually do
pertain to each other at a logical level, right?
Yes, definitely. But maybe this logical, user-centric division can be
handled perfectly cleanly just in the docs? The docs for settings can
then look something like this (and this is obviously just a sketch,
some pseudocode for the actual docs that I'll clean up long before
sending to Graham):
LilyPond supports 47 different different page layout and setup
settings. These settings divide into 5 different functional areas.
These five functional areas are:
* page dimensions
* page margins
* headers and footers
* the layout of systems
* the location of line- and page-breaks
In addition, LilyPond input files support three different places where
these different settings can be made. These three levels where
settings can be made are:
* score level
* book level
* top level
Some settings can be made only at score level and book level. Other
settings can be made at all three levels. In the detailed descriptions
that follow, we note whether a setting can be set at 2 or 3 levels.
Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
On 2/7/07, Bryan Stanbridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Rogers wrote: The correct answer is (I believe) exactly as you proposed earlier. Talking about Lilypond's internal logic is IMHO counterproductive. In fact, internally, I suspect Lilypond should stay the same - it just needs to allow the user to use it effectively by making (or even just *allowing*) the logical separation between paper, headers, and music, which you already outlined. It would be great if we could also leave the current mechanism in place if we do such a change. The system made sense to me from the beginning and I'd prefer to think in terms of scope (I have a strong programming background). I don't oppose a division on its merits, but it would be nice if the format would stay the same. Right. The scoping mechanism is actually fantastic. So what do you think about the collapsing of \paper and \layout into \settings which is then a *pure* representation of the scope at which the variable sets? [Side question: had you realized that there were actually *three* levels of scope (at least in input files) rather than two? I certainly didn't. But I never use \book explicitly ...] -- Trevor Bača [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
[Sidenote: if this proposal to collapse \paper and \alyout does make
sense, then we'll have to decide what to do with the fact that there's
a second, equally important use for \layout blocks, which is the
overriding of context attributes ... which is a wholly separate thing
from making the different settings talked about in this thread, as
described in 9.2.6. This sort of thing:
\layout {
...
\context {
\Staff
\set fontSize = #-2
\override Stem #'thickness = #4.0
\remove Time_signature_engraver
}
}
\layout has another function, although it may be a special case of one
of its other uses. If a \score block contains a \midi block the
\layout block is needed if PDF output is also desired.
--
=
Cameron Horsburgh
=
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Re: Reorganizing the contents of the \paper block
On 2/7/07, Cameron Horsburgh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[Sidenote: if this proposal to collapse \paper and \alyout does make
sense, then we'll have to decide what to do with the fact that there's
a second, equally important use for \layout blocks, which is the
overriding of context attributes ... which is a wholly separate thing
from making the different settings talked about in this thread, as
described in 9.2.6. This sort of thing:
\layout {
...
\context {
\Staff
\set fontSize = #-2
\override Stem #'thickness = #4.0
\remove Time_signature_engraver
}
}
\layout has another function, although it may be a special case of one
of its other uses. If a \score block contains a \midi block the
\layout block is needed if PDF output is also desired.
Ah right. I remember that coming up a while back.
OK, duly noted. If there's support for the layout + paper - settings
proposal, then we'll have to find a way to tell lily to produce a PDF
even when there's no \settings block. Sounds like a good candidate for
a commandline switch.
--
Trevor Bača
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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