Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 1:06 PM, James wrote:
> On 15/09/2010 12:40, Graham Percival wrote:
>>
>> Good point. Next time I'll do a grumpy&fluffy reply -- first I'll
>> give a Graham-style response to shock&awe, then (in the same
>> email) I'll give a kind and generous response.
>
> and that would be a shame.
...
> I guess we all donate our time for different reasons, but praise and polite
> conversation is not one I do it for.
Hey, moron! All you have to do is stop reading when I tell you to.
There's a reason that the "grumpy" part comes first. Mao, do you
think I'm new to this kind of stuff?
James, Valentin: stop reading. Fluffy bunnies ahead.
I agree that it would be a shame for the community to lose my distinct
style -- I do it deliberately, after all! When properly understood,
they add humour and a "personal touch" to what could otherwise be a
rather boring job (or volunteer effort). The French contributors who
met my stuttering self in Bordeaux can attest that I'm not *at all*
scary in person. :)
OTOH, when read out of context ("context" here meaning the full
multi-year history between me and the people I'm aiming that email
at), some of my emails really do paint a bad picture of our
development community in general, and me in particular.
I think that the "two-pronged" (or "Jekyll and Hyde") approach is the
best way to meet both goals. People who appreciate the nasty can get
their jollies that way, but the very same email will present a fair
and balanced view of the situation.
Wishing you kittens and love,
- Graham
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Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
James writes: > On 15/09/2010 12:40, Graham Percival wrote: >> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 08:39:26AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: >>> Valentin Villenave writes: >>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Trevor Daniels > wrote: >> You know, after rebuffs like this it's hardly >> surprising you don't get many people offering to >> help you. > > Valentin is a personal friend, Whilst I do understand that such tactless rebuttals might look impressive and unappealing to newcomers, >>> >>> Doesn't help. Social standards are not something a witness can switch >>> off at will rationally. > > Hmm... 'Pot' and 'Kettle' are two words that spring to mind here David > ;) My personal style does not significantly deteriorate further with familiarity. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
On 15/09/2010 12:40, Graham Percival wrote: On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 08:39:26AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Valentin Villenave writes: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Graham Percival wrote: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Trevor Daniels wrote: You know, after rebuffs like this it's hardly surprising you don't get many people offering to help you. Valentin is a personal friend, Whilst I do understand that such tactless rebuttals might look impressive and unappealing to newcomers, Doesn't help. Social standards are not something a witness can switch off at will rationally. Hmm... 'Pot' and 'Kettle' are two words that spring to mind here David ;) Good point. Next time I'll do a grumpy&fluffy reply -- first I'll give a Graham-style response to shock&awe, then (in the same email) I'll give a kind and generous response. and that would be a shame. I am sure I am not the only person who sees a huge unread thread with certain developers too-ing and fro-ing on it and think "oo goody!", then go make a cup of tea, get some biscuits and settle down for some entertaining 'banter' (even if most of it I can barely follow - the detail is beside the point in most cases). This self-deprecating, second para of this thread kept me amused for days: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.devel/29578 On a slightly less frivolous note, Graham's 'grumpiness' does certainly make me think 'twice' (and sweat slightly) before submitting any patch for LilyPond doc and I am sure it is this grumpiness that has kept the beast that is Doc, in check. Manners doth maketh the man, but it sure has hell wouldn't make good Documentation. I guess we all donate our time for different reasons, but praise and polite conversation is not one I do it for. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 08:39:26AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: > Valentin Villenave writes: > > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Graham Percival > > wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Trevor Daniels > >> wrote: > >>> You know, after rebuffs like this it's hardly > >>> surprising you don't get many people offering to > >>> help you. > >> > >> Valentin is a personal friend, > > > > Whilst I do understand that such tactless rebuttals might look > > impressive and unappealing to newcomers, > > Doesn't help. Social standards are not something a witness can switch > off at will rationally. Good point. Next time I'll do a grumpy&fluffy reply -- first I'll give a Graham-style response to shock&awe, then (in the same email) I'll give a kind and generous response. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
Valentin Villenave wrote Wednesday, September 15, 2010 12:42 AM On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Graham Percival wrote: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Trevor Daniels wrote: You know, after rebuffs like this it's hardly surprising you don't get many people offering to help you. Seeing this, anyone thinking of offering will likely think again. Valentin is a personal friend, and the grumpy/fluffy interplay has been a constant between us. I take much more liberties with him than I would anybody else. Yes, I know that, and I know Valentin's coefficient of restitution is amazingly high! But some of us are more brittle, and don't (immediately) bounce back. You just need to be reminded of that from time to time :) Whilst I do understand that such tactless rebuttals might look impressive and unappealing to newcomers That was my point. Long-standing members of -devel enjoy the lively interchange, but newcomers don't know the background. But after this exchange they do, so please bicker on :) Trevor ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
> My siblings and I used to entertain a communication style full with > insults and deprecatory remarks, sort of like a playful reminiscence > of times when we were still kids. And of course, the more of us > were present at some occasion, the more fun we had. Indeed. My children and I are also training to insult each other. The art is to find something sophisticated which makes the other speechless $(Q#|(B for a short moment. :-) Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
Valentin Villenave writes: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Graham Percival > wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Trevor Daniels >> wrote: >>> You know, after rebuffs like this it's hardly >>> surprising you don't get many people offering to >>> help you. Seeing this, anyone thinking of offering >>> will likely think again. >> >> Valentin is a personal friend, and the grumpy/fluffy interplay >> has been a constant between us. I take much more liberties with >> him than I would anybody else. If I've taken too much liberty here, I >> apologize. (I'll follow up with him off-list) > > Wow, I'm not sure what's the most touching here: Trevor stepping up > very kindly (as always) or Graham referring to me as a "friend"... > Either way, I feel compelled to say something now :) > > Whilst I do understand that such tactless rebuttals might look > impressive and unappealing to newcomers, I hope everyone who > subscribes to lily-devel understands that most people here actually > have known each other for years, and that there may be a subtext > implied in every such conversation. Doesn't help. Social standards are not something a witness can switch off at will rationally. My siblings and I used to entertain a communication style full with insults and deprecatory remarks, sort of like a playful reminiscence of times when we were still kids. And of course, the more of us were present at some occasion, the more fun we had. The first few "semi-official" family meetings involving future in-laws were a bit disastrous since the prospective partners were expecting us to physically go at each others' throats any moment and could not understand what went wrong (hardly surprising since nothing went wrong, and rather we were all having a collective ball). In the end, we had to adapt our form of communication to more standard ones since of course the circles we were meeting in did not share a significant part of our history, and we were putting even those on edge who had by then been educated what to expect. We were poisoning the atmosphere for _them_ because of the playful animosities exchanged between _us_. This mailing list is a more open social circle than a wedding party. Sorry to be a spoilsport. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Trevor Daniels wrote: >> You know, after rebuffs like this it's hardly >> surprising you don't get many people offering to >> help you. Seeing this, anyone thinking of offering >> will likely think again. > > Valentin is a personal friend, and the grumpy/fluffy interplay > has been a constant between us. I take much more liberties with > him than I would anybody else. If I've taken too much liberty here, I > apologize. (I'll follow up with him off-list) Wow, I'm not sure what's the most touching here: Trevor stepping up very kindly (as always) or Graham referring to me as a "friend"... Either way, I feel compelled to say something now :) Whilst I do understand that such tactless rebuttals might look impressive and unappealing to newcomers, I hope everyone who subscribes to lily-devel understands that most people here actually have known each other for years, and that there may be a subtext implied in every such conversation. Having been involved (and in charge of) several communities, I must say that the quality of the LilyPond community is well above average, as has been reported by quite a lot of contributors or visitors over the years. Generally speaking, people here are friendly, intelligent, helpful and inconceivably respectful towards each other. This specific discussion makes my point: every time there might be some words considered to harsh, someone steps up to try and defuse any possible conflict (even in otherwise lost causes, as we've seen). Graham has been my mentor for nearly five years now, and he somehow still is, although I have consistently provided him with every reason to give up on me: even though I disagree with him on this one, I appreciate the fact that it took him less than 15 minutes to acknowledge my patch -- albeit in his own way :) > Look, we've had a few rounds of fruitless discussion about > indentation, pretty much on a yearly basis. Each time, after 20 > or 30 emails and goodness knows how many hours spent > reading+writing (summed over all developers), nothing has changed. > I'm trying to head off such a discussion so that people won't be > (more) sick of the topic later on. Well, maybe for once my approach is less ambitious than yours: from what I gathered of said discussions, our policy was "do not push huge commits affecting lots of files, but feel free to correct indentation if you stumble upon inconsistencies in a source file you happen to be working on". Which is what I did in this specific case. Anyway, I certainly won't fight over this patch. Not being familiar with C++/yacc development, I can't tell exactly how obtrusive it is (and I suspect neither can you). All I know is that it feels good to do something you don't think you totally suck at[1], and correcting indentation did nicely fit in this category for me, at least compared to coding, bug-handling, writing documentation or newsletters :) Cheers, Valentin PS. BTW: many thanks to John for having taught me how to use emacs, which now makes me able to indent files The Only Right Way® :-) ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Trevor Daniels wrote: > > Graham Percival wrote Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:24 PM > >> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 03:11:53PM +0200, Valentin Villenave wrote: >>> >>> It's not much, but since it does change quite a few lines (in a such >>> critical source file, on top of that), there's no way I'm gonna try >>> and push that myself :-) >> >> Rejected. Don't manually screw with indentation, especially in a >> critical source file. > > You know, after rebuffs like this it's hardly > surprising you don't get many people offering to > help you. Seeing this, anyone thinking of offering > will likely think again. Valentin is a personal friend, and the grumpy/fluffy interplay has been a constant between us. I take much more liberties with him than I would anybody else. If I've taken too much liberty here, I apologize. (I'll follow up with him off-list) Look, we've had a few rounds of fruitless discussion about indentation, pretty much on a yearly basis. Each time, after 20 or 30 emails and goodness knows how many hours spent reading+writing (summed over all developers), nothing has changed. I'm trying to head off such a discussion so that people won't be (more) sick of the topic later on. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
Graham Percival wrote Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:24 PM On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 03:11:53PM +0200, Valentin Villenave wrote: It's not much, but since it does change quite a few lines (in a such critical source file, on top of that), there's no way I'm gonna try and push that myself :-) Rejected. Don't manually screw with indentation, especially in a critical source file. If this is part of work on 746, we can talk, although since I offically Started work on it... err... oops, I forgot to claim the issue. /me runs off and does that. Ok, basically, I'm preparing the background for our discussion about indentation, *after* 2.14 is out, and *after* I have enough information to lay out the positive and negative aspects. I don't see much potential for positive outcomes until that's done, so I urge you to withdraw the patch and everybody else to ignore this. You know, after rebuffs like this it's hardly surprising you don't get many people offering to help you. Seeing this, anyone thinking of offering will likely think again. Trevor ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 03:11:53PM +0200, Valentin Villenave wrote: > It's not much, but since it does change quite a few lines (in a such > critical source file, on top of that), there's no way I'm gonna try > and push that myself :-) Rejected. Don't manually screw with indentation, especially in a critical source file. If this is part of work on 746, we can talk, although since I offically Started work on it... err... oops, I forgot to claim the issue. /me runs off and does that. Ok, basically, I'm preparing the background for our discussion about indentation, *after* 2.14 is out, and *after* I have enough information to lay out the positive and negative aspects. I don't see much potential for positive outcomes until that's done, so I urge you to withdraw the patch and everybody else to ignore this. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
[Patch] Indentation in parser.yy
Greetings everybody, I'm currently fiddling with the parser on my local branch (I know adding things to the parser is a big no-no, but nevertheless I hope to come up with some interesting proposals after 2.14 is out). And while doing so, I figured I could make the indentation a little more consistent in parser.yy (right now there are a few inconsistencies, although it doesn't look so bad overall). It's not much, but since it does change quite a few lines (in a such critical source file, on top of that), there's no way I'm gonna try and push that myself :-) Cheers, Valentin 0001-Indentation-in-parser.yy.patch Description: Binary data ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
