Re: Quickstart guide
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 05:28:04PM +0200, Joseph Wakeling wrote: > On 06/23/2010 05:16 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > > Given that AFAIK, none of the active developers know where to find > > the source repository for the windows lilypond editor, let alone > > being at all familiar with that code, this is an extremely > > ambitious project. > > Hang on. Where did I say people should be working on a Windows > development editor? umm, right here: > I'm talking about creating a 1-page quickstart readme guide, > probably customized per platform, that would be _part of the > install_ on platforms where people are used to GUIs. What did you mean by "customized per platform, that would be part of the install" ? I think I understand what you mean now, however... > > So something like we already have on the download page? > > Yes, exactly. So it's not so difficult to package it up so that the > same guidance is available courtesy of an item on the Windows menu, no? > 'Lilypond > Lilypond Quickstart Guide' ... "Packaging it up" is extremely difficult. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Quickstart guide
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 05:56:02PM +0200, Joseph Wakeling wrote: > On 06/23/2010 05:37 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > > I think I understand what you mean now, however... > > Well, to be clear: I mean that when you install Lilypond on Windows, it > should create a menu item (and optionally, a desktop icon) that would > load the aforesaid (HTML) quickstart guide when you click on it. Ok. > Similar for Mac OS. OSX doesn't do desktop icons, and had no real system of menu items. I suppose we could pollute the Dock with such an icon, but the Dock just isn't used that way for most osx apps. > It was a response to David K.'s remark about the experience of having > people install Lilypond and then come back with remarks like, 'Where is > it, then??': > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2010-06/msg00377.html Those complaints are being ignored until we've had the new website up for a while. If, after 6 months of the new website, we still have people confused about it, I'll consider the matter again. > > ... "Packaging it up" is extremely difficult. > > I'm not familiar with Windows or Mac development or installers -- is it > genuinely difficult to have the installation program create a menu item > or desktop icon which simply points to a locally-stored HTML file? :-( It is genuinely difficult to alter our installation program, and thus also genuinely difficult to make it add more desktop icons. If you don't believe me, try getting GUB up and running. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Quickstart guide
On 06/23/2010 05:37 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > What did you mean by "customized per platform, that would be part > of the install" ? > > I think I understand what you mean now, however... Well, to be clear: I mean that when you install Lilypond on Windows, it should create a menu item (and optionally, a desktop icon) that would load the aforesaid (HTML) quickstart guide when you click on it. Similar for Mac OS. It was a response to David K.'s remark about the experience of having people install Lilypond and then come back with remarks like, 'Where is it, then??': http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2010-06/msg00377.html > ... "Packaging it up" is extremely difficult. I'm not familiar with Windows or Mac development or installers -- is it genuinely difficult to have the installation program create a menu item or desktop icon which simply points to a locally-stored HTML file? :-( Best wishes, -- Joe ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Quickstart guide
Joseph, You said > > I'm talking about creating a 1-page quickstart readme guide, probably > customized per platform, that would be _part of the install_ on > platforms where people are used to GUIs. But at the same time you prefaced this with > Please let me emphasize that I'm not talking about cutting material from > the existing docs or website, nor am I saying that the information in > question is not provided by the existing website. So is this a request for 'paraphrasing' what is already in the docs? I am a little confused too, and when you said.. > ... that would be _part of the install_ on >> platforms where people are used to GUIs. Is where I think the confusion with 'editors' came from. As far as I can make out, all you are asking for is to take what is already here (for example): http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/web/macos-x and making it part of the download? Otherwise I am not sure what it is the quickstart would offer over this. Which is I think what Graham was getting at. Isn't this a 'quickstart'? James ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Quickstart guide
On 06/23/2010 05:16 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > Given that AFAIK, none of the active developers know where to find > the source repository for the windows lilypond editor, let alone > being at all familiar with that code, this is an extremely > ambitious project. Hang on. Where did I say people should be working on a Windows development editor? > So something like we already have on the download page? Yes, exactly. So it's not so difficult to package it up so that the same guidance is available courtesy of an item on the Windows menu, no? 'Lilypond > Lilypond Quickstart Guide' > Look, for better or worse, we have absolutely no resources to > spend on editor stuff (have you looked at the bug tracker > lately?!). Feel free to suggest something to the lilypondtool or > frescobaldi people. I never said anything about editor stuff. :-\ Best wishes, -- Joe ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Quickstart guide
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:02:35AM +0200, Joseph Wakeling wrote: > On 06/22/2010 09:38 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > > WTM are you talking about? something like this: > > I'm talking about creating a 1-page quickstart readme guide, probably > customized per platform, that would be _part of the install_ on > platforms where people are used to GUIs. > > Example: Windows. Add a Lilypond menu item. Clicking on it loads the Given that AFAIK, none of the active developers know where to find the source repository for the windows lilypond editor, let alone being at all familiar with that code, this is an extremely ambitious project. There's already one or two tracker items about the windows editor, the source code for it, and ideas about a cross-platform lightweight editor. All those ideas require at least 30 hours of work from a very skilled or motivated developer. None of them are going to happen in 2010. > I'd just create a new page which gives the absolute, absolute minimum of > information (edit file in text editor, open command line window, compile > like this...), and CLICK HERE FOR MORE DETAILED INFORMATION. So something like we already have on the download page? Look, for better or worse, we have absolutely no resources to spend on editor stuff (have you looked at the bug tracker lately?!). Feel free to suggest something to the lilypondtool or frescobaldi people. (for that matter: we don't even recommend that people use the gui we provide; we heavily recommend stuff like frescobaldi and lilypondtool instead, and those editors will have different steps for compiling a file anyway!) Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Quickstart guide
On 06/22/2010 09:38 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 09:16:34PM +0200, Joseph Wakeling wrote: >> I was sure there was some kind of one-page quickstart guide in the >> documentation, but looking on the development version doc pages at >> http://kainhofer.com/~lilypond/ I can't find one -- at least, it's not >> immediately apparent that one exists. > > WTM are you talking about? something like this: > http://lilypond.org/website/macos-x.html > or this: > http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/learning/tutorial > ? Please let me emphasize that I'm not talking about cutting material from the existing docs or website, nor am I saying that the information in question is not provided by the existing website. I'm talking about creating a 1-page quickstart readme guide, probably customized per platform, that would be _part of the install_ on platforms where people are used to GUIs. Example: Windows. Add a Lilypond menu item. Clicking on it loads the HTML quickstart guide and a command-line window. It's not what the user is used to, but it does provide an immediate offset to the 'HTM do I use this program?' reaction that some Windows users have. > What would you omit from the current Learning 1 in the 2.13 docs? I wouldn't omit anything from the current Learning 1. I'd just create a new page which gives the absolute, absolute minimum of information (edit file in text editor, open command line window, compile like this...), and CLICK HERE FOR MORE DETAILED INFORMATION. Something that jumps up in the face of the new user on Windows/Mac OS and gives them a pre-emptive answer to the 'How does this program work?' question that keeps arriving on the mailing list. > I'm really curious about what you think is irrelevant... I don't say it's irrelevant. I _do_ say that there is value in a simple 1-page quickstart guide. Best wishes, -- Joe ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Quickstart guide
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 09:16:34PM +0200, Joseph Wakeling wrote: > I was sure there was some kind of one-page quickstart guide in the > documentation, but looking on the development version doc pages at > http://kainhofer.com/~lilypond/ I can't find one -- at least, it's not > immediately apparent that one exists. WTM are you talking about? something like this: http://lilypond.org/website/macos-x.html or this: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/learning/tutorial ? > Most of the material you'd want for such a guide is covered in Chapter 1 > of the Learning Manual, so it should be reasonably OK to condense into a > 1-page piece of HTML that could (i) be included in a prominent place on > the webpage and (ii) could load as a result of clicking on a 'Lilypond > icon' installed with Windows or Mac OS. What would you omit from the current Learning 1 in the 2.13 docs? I'm really curious about what you think is irrelevant... users don't need to be told that it's case sensitive? We shouldn't give instructions for command-line use, because everybody uses windows or osx? What? Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Quickstart guide
On 06/21/2010 12:18 AM, I wrote: > On 06/20/2010 06:10 PM, David Kastrup wrote: > > You can't stop at selling Lilypond to somebody without having an > > answer to "how do I start this thing"? How many people are complaining > > that they double-click on the Lilypond icon and nothing happens? > > Hmmm ... so why not start by having the icon open a 'Quickstart' help > page that explains how to use Lilypond on the platform in question? > Trivial to implement, no? I was sure there was some kind of one-page quickstart guide in the documentation, but looking on the development version doc pages at http://kainhofer.com/~lilypond/ I can't find one -- at least, it's not immediately apparent that one exists. (I didn't look hard; it's kind of defeating the point of a Quickstart guide if you have to...) Most of the material you'd want for such a guide is covered in Chapter 1 of the Learning Manual, so it should be reasonably OK to condense into a 1-page piece of HTML that could (i) be included in a prominent place on the webpage and (ii) could load as a result of clicking on a 'Lilypond icon' installed with Windows or Mac OS. Shall I give it a go? Any thoughts/comments? Best wishes, -- Joe ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
