Re: Problem with \partial
Anthony Youngman wrote: Well, there's English, and there's English. I've come across the term anacrusis and would never have thought of calling it a pickup. lead in or upbeat are the terms I mostly hear people use, I think. Obviously there are regional differences. Pickup which can be plural for multiple notes is the most frequent term I have heard in my 54 years of rehearsing, performing and copying music. Maybe if anacrusis is more universal it might be better *if* \partial must be changed. Not to dispute other people's use of upbeat but you can see that it does make sense when used as the opposite of downbeat to describe a syncopated note beginning especially in jazz or swing figures. I will also admit that this term is relatively new in my experience. But then again, I'm strange :-) I talk about crotchets, minims etc. This mailing list is about the only place I ever meet terms like quarter note. And even though I am aware of those words I have to look them up when I see them referred to. Have fun, Paul ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
RE: Problem with \partial
Well, there's English, and there's English. I've come across the term anacrusis and would never have thought of calling it a pickup. lead in or upbeat are the terms I mostly hear people use, I think. But then again, I'm strange :-) I talk about crotchets, minims etc. This mailing list is about the only place I ever meet terms like quarter note. Cheers, Wol -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] u.org] On Behalf Of Erik Sandberg Sent: 13 July 2006 09:30 To: lilypond-devel@gnu.org Cc: Paul Scott Subject: Re: Problem with \partial On Wednesday 12 July 2006 23:01, Paul Scott wrote: Graham Percival wrote: I like \partial as it is. In my experience upbeat is the second half of a beat where downbeat is the first half of a beat. If it needs to be changed pickup(s) at least means what you seem to be referring to. Anacrusis seems to be another related word: http://www.music.vt.edu/MUSICDICTIONARY/texta/Anacrusis.html A quick googling suggests that anacrusis and pickup seem to be the most correct terms, and then pickup is better because I have never heard the word anacrusis. (unfortunately I'm not good at English musical terms; I only know that the correct term in Swedish is 'upptakt'.) I think Kieren is right too: it seems that both words can be used for both meanings. However, it seems that pickup is more commonly used in the meaning we want. -- Erik ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel * * This transmission is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must not act on anything disclosed in it, nor must you copy it, modify it, disseminate it in any way, or show it to anyone. Please e-mail the sender to inform us of the transmission error or telephone ECA International immediately and delete the e-mail from your information system. Telephone numbers for ECA International offices are: Sydney +61 (0)2 8272 5300, Hong Kong + 852 2121 2388, London +44 (0)20 7351 5000 and New York +1 212 582 2333. * * ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
On Wednesday 12 July 2006 23:01, Paul Scott wrote: Graham Percival wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: On 7/9/06, Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: In an ideal world we wouldn't need workarounds like this, but it's useful to have a fudge factor \partial. Perhaps we could rename it, and hide it somewhere in the manual under advanced tweaks? :) There is already a property that can be set (Timing.measurePosition IIRC) which is what \partial modifies. Whoops, I should have realized this. OK, I'm happy -- ugly hacks are still possible, but \upbeat is a better term for real uses of \partial. :) I like \partial as it is. In my experience upbeat is the second half of a beat where downbeat is the first half of a beat. If it needs to be changed pickup(s) at least means what you seem to be referring to. Anacrusis seems to be another related word: http://www.music.vt.edu/MUSICDICTIONARY/texta/Anacrusis.html A quick googling suggests that anacrusis and pickup seem to be the most correct terms, and then pickup is better because I have never heard the word anacrusis. (unfortunately I'm not good at English musical terms; I only know that the correct term in Swedish is 'upptakt'.) I think Kieren is right too: it seems that both words can be used for both meanings. However, it seems that pickup is more commonly used in the meaning we want. -- Erik ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
Erik Sandberg wrote: Anacrusis seems to be another related word: http://www.music.vt.edu/MUSICDICTIONARY/texta/Anacrusis.html A quick googling suggests that anacrusis and pickup seem to be the most correct terms, and then pickup is better because I have never heard the word anacrusis. (unfortunately I'm not good at English musical terms; I only know that the correct term in Swedish is 'upptakt'.) The first time I encountered the word anacrusis was in a university music theory class, after 20 years of string playing. pickup is the common term here (Canada, and I'm pretty certain in the US as well). Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
On 7/12/06, Mathieu Giraud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 7/6/06, Juergen Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
please note that \partial or \upbeat, whatever you call it, has
musicologically a special meaning: the first, incomplete bar, and the last
bar of a piece or of a major section of a piece (typically the bar before
the next || bar glyph) should sum up to a complete bar.
For example, if a song with 4/4 meter starts with \partial 4 f4, the
last bar should, by convention, have a total length of 3 quarter notes.
Having said that, you never should use \partial or \upbeat somewhere
within a piece. If lily nevertheless accepts it within a piece without
issuing an error or warning, I consider this a bug.
I often use partials to allow line breaks in the middle of some bars :
breakThreeFour = { \partial 2. s2. \bar \break \partial 4 s4 }
It makes more readable music, especially when there are multiple verses.
Mathieu
Questions:
- Why do you add the \partials and skips? Why is not just \bar
\break sufficient?
- Isn't the bar numbering messed up by your hack?
Erik
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Re: Problem with \partial
Erik Sandberg wrote: On 7/9/06, Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: In an ideal world we wouldn't need workarounds like this, but it's useful to have a fudge factor \partial. Perhaps we could rename it, and hide it somewhere in the manual under advanced tweaks? :) There is already a property that can be set (Timing.measurePosition IIRC) which is what \partial modifies. Whoops, I should have realized this. OK, I'm happy -- ugly hacks are still possible, but \upbeat is a better term for real uses of \partial. :) I think something like that is the proper solution if you want to add a few extra mm of spacing. In my case it was forcing lily to realize that my \partial should appear after the time signature of the other staff, not a spacing issue. But manually tweaking measurePosition should be fine for that. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
Graham Percival wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: On 7/9/06, Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: In an ideal world we wouldn't need workarounds like this, but it's useful to have a fudge factor \partial. Perhaps we could rename it, and hide it somewhere in the manual under advanced tweaks? :) There is already a property that can be set (Timing.measurePosition IIRC) which is what \partial modifies. Whoops, I should have realized this. OK, I'm happy -- ugly hacks are still possible, but \upbeat is a better term for real uses of \partial. :) I like \partial as it is. In my experience upbeat is the second half of a beat where downbeat is the first half of a beat. If it needs to be changed pickup(s) at least means what you seem to be referring to. Paul Scott ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
On 7/9/06, Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Erik Sandberg wrote:
On Friday 07 July 2006 16:34, Graham Percival wrote:
I'm convinced as far as proper notation goes. But I'd still like to
have a add time command to avoid some bugs. I agree that it's a bad
reason, but unless there's a better way to do it, some notation won't work.
In an ideal world we wouldn't need workarounds like this, but it's
useful to have a fudge factor \partial. Perhaps we could rename it,
and hide it somewhere in the manual under advanced tweaks? :)
There is already a property that can be set (Timing.measurePosition
IIRC) which is what \partial modifies. \partial 8 sets the
measurePosition to -1/8, which is why it only works where a new bar is
expected to start.
It would be possible to write a new command that just adds a moment to
measurePosition, but that would be problematic too:
{ c1 | \insertTime 8 s8 d1 | }
{ e1 | \insertTime 8 s8 f1 | }
If both the insertTime commands subtract 1/8 from measurePosition,
then 1/4 would be subtracted in total, which we don't want.
This can maybe be fixed by letting Timing_engraver do the job, but
that might be a too big change, given that it's a workaround. This is
why I like the
\makeBar { s8 f1 }
variant: It's very easy to implement, and I don't think it will cause
any problems.
Here's the example (and the only time I use \partial inside a piece)
If \partial was renamed to \upBeat, then at least users of \partial
mid-piece would be more aware that they used an improper solution to a
problem. I'm not sure, but I think there are invisible objects for
horizontal spacing, whose widths you can tweak. I think something like
that is the proper solution if you want to add a few extra mm of
spacing.
Erik
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RE: Problem with partial
The repeat sign probably should include a double bar line ... In my type of music (concert, brass band) it is quite normal to put a double bar line in the middle of a bar when there is a major section change, eg at the Trio. I've never come across a repeat in the middle of a bar, though... Cheers, Wol -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] u.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Reuter Sent: 07 July 2006 17:31 To: Mats Bengtsson Cc: lilypond-devel@gnu.org; Juergen Reuter Subject: Re: Problem with partial Ah, ok; I understand. Still, I think that using \partial in this situation is kind of abuse that accidentally works. I guess the real problem here is that lily models repeat signs as bar lines; but I am also wondering how a repeat sign should actually look like, if it does not coincide with the bound of a bar (it probably should not consist of a vertical line)... Greetings, Juergen On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Mats Bengtsson wrote: One common example where people today use it in the middle of a score is repeats, where the repeat sign is in the middle of a bar (especially in combination with prima/secunda volta). Currently, LilyPond doesn't automatically take this into account. Of course, the best solution in this situation would be if LilyPond treated the measure position correctly for repeats. /Mats Quoting Juergen Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, please note that \partial or \upbeat, whatever you call it, has musicologically a special meaning: the first, incomplete bar, and the last bar of a piece or of a major section of a piece (typically the bar before the next || bar glyph) should sum up to a complete bar. For example, if a song with 4/4 meter starts with \partial 4 f4, the last bar should, by convention, have a total length of 3 quarter notes. Having said that, you never should use \partial or \upbeat somewhere within a piece. If lily nevertheless accepts it within a piece without issuing an error or warning, I consider this a bug. Having a bar within a piece that differs in length from the foreassigned meter is a different concept. Greetings, Juergen On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Graham Percival wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: On Wednesday 05 July 2006 17:54, Graham Percival wrote: IMO, \partial is just fine. If there's some confusion, by all means we can clarify the docs. As always, I gratefully accept any specific recommendations for doc changes. IMHO using \partial in the middle of a bar is confusing; I think there should be some other command that sets the length of an individual bar. Do you think it would make sense to invent such a command? I'd rather keep the behavior of \partial -- ie add an extra X duration to this bar, rather than this bar should have X duration. That said, I suppose we could rename \partial to \addTime or something like that. I don't think that \upbeat is appropriate, but we could find some other name. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel * * This transmission is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must not act on anything disclosed in it, nor must you copy it, modify it, disseminate it in any way, or show it to anyone. Please e-mail the sender to inform us of the transmission error or telephone ECA International immediately and delete the e-mail from your information system. Telephone numbers for ECA International offices are: Sydney +61 (0)2 8272 5300, Hong Kong + 852 2121 2388, London +44 (0)20 7351 5000 and New York +1 212 582 2333. * * ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
RE: Problem with \partial
Will \makebar handle
\makebar { d4 d \bar || d d }
which is a SINGLE bar?
Cheers,
Wol
-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
u.org] On Behalf Of Erik Sandberg
Sent: 07 July 2006 16:49
To: lilypond-devel@gnu.org
Cc: Juergen Reuter
Subject: Re: Problem with \partial
IMHO, I think the best practise for creating a single bar with length,
is to
use
\set Timing.barLength = #(make-moment ...)
at the beginning of the bar, plus a corresponding \unset after the bar.
The
set/unset is of course cumbersome, which is why some people currently
prefer
the \partial hack to seemingly achieve the same thing. This is in turn
is why
I suggest that we add a new command. (when thinking about it, I like
best the
\makeBar {d4 d d d d} syntax)
--
Erik
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Re: Problem with \partial
On 7/10/06, Anthony Youngman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Will \makebar handle
\makebar { d4 d \bar || d d }
which is a SINGLE bar?
Yes, barlines and measures are separate concepts in lily (Timing
contexts insert bar lines between measures).
Erik
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RE: Problem with partial
Oh, true. Yes, I remember having seen these double bar-like lines in the middle of a bar, now that you are mentioning it. So, summarizing, we actually have two totally different types of bar lines: * Pseudo bar lines, which are actually sectioning marks (||, repeat signs). Virtually, they may appear anywhere in a bar; and they should not affect the bar number. * True bar lines, which indicate where the heavy beat is. The bar number should increase only after a true bar line (unless manually tweaked). I am not sure, if line breaks by default should be allowed only on true bar lines or also on pseudo bar lines. Greetings, Juergen On Mon, 10 Jul 2006, Anthony Youngman wrote: The repeat sign probably should include a double bar line ... In my type of music (concert, brass band) it is quite normal to put a double bar line in the middle of a bar when there is a major section change, eg at the Trio. I've never come across a repeat in the middle of a bar, though... Cheers, Wol -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] u.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Reuter Sent: 07 July 2006 17:31 To: Mats Bengtsson Cc: lilypond-devel@gnu.org; Juergen Reuter Subject: Re: Problem with partial Ah, ok; I understand. Still, I think that using \partial in this situation is kind of abuse that accidentally works. I guess the real problem here is that lily models repeat signs as bar lines; but I am also wondering how a repeat sign should actually look like, if it does not coincide with the bound of a bar (it probably should not consist of a vertical line)... Greetings, Juergen On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Mats Bengtsson wrote: One common example where people today use it in the middle of a score is repeats, where the repeat sign is in the middle of a bar (especially in combination with prima/secunda volta). Currently, LilyPond doesn't automatically take this into account. Of course, the best solution in this situation would be if LilyPond treated the measure position correctly for repeats. /Mats Quoting Juergen Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, please note that \partial or \upbeat, whatever you call it, has musicologically a special meaning: the first, incomplete bar, and the last bar of a piece or of a major section of a piece (typically the bar before the next || bar glyph) should sum up to a complete bar. For example, if a song with 4/4 meter starts with \partial 4 f4, the last bar should, by convention, have a total length of 3 quarter notes. Having said that, you never should use \partial or \upbeat somewhere within a piece. If lily nevertheless accepts it within a piece without issuing an error or warning, I consider this a bug. Having a bar within a piece that differs in length from the foreassigned meter is a different concept. Greetings, Juergen On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Graham Percival wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: On Wednesday 05 July 2006 17:54, Graham Percival wrote: IMO, \partial is just fine. If there's some confusion, by all means we can clarify the docs. As always, I gratefully accept any specific recommendations for doc changes. IMHO using \partial in the middle of a bar is confusing; I think there should be some other command that sets the length of an individual bar. Do you think it would make sense to invent such a command? I'd rather keep the behavior of \partial -- ie add an extra X duration to this bar, rather than this bar should have X duration. That said, I suppose we could rename \partial to \addTime or something like that. I don't think that \upbeat is appropriate, but we could find some other name. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel * * This transmission is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must not act on anything disclosed in it, nor must you copy it, modify it, disseminate it in any way, or show it to anyone. Please e-mail the sender to inform us of the transmission error or telephone ECA International immediately and delete the e-mail from your information system. Telephone numbers for ECA International offices are: Sydney +61 (0)2 8272 5300, Hong Kong + 852 2121 2388, London +44 (0)20 7351 5000 and New York +1 212 582 2333. * * ___ lilypond-devel mailing list
Re: Problem with partial
Juergen == Juergen Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Juergen I am not sure, if line breaks by default should be Juergen allowed only on true bar lines or also on pseudo bar Juergen lines. In general, a repeat sign is one of the better places for a page break. -- Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (501) 641-5011 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
Erik Sandberg wrote:
On Friday 07 July 2006 16:34, Graham Percival wrote:
\noTimeSignature
c4 c c c | d d d d \partial 4 d | c c c c
That's still a different concept than using \partial in the beginning of a
piece. IMHO, using \partial mid-piece is bad practise, because it's difficult
to read,
Hmm, ok.
IMHO, I think the best practise for creating a single bar with length, is to
use
\set Timing.barLength = #(make-moment ...)
at the beginning of the bar, plus a corresponding \unset after the bar. The
set/unset is of course cumbersome, which is why some people currently prefer
the \partial hack to seemingly achieve the same thing. This is in turn is why
I suggest that we add a new command. (when thinking about it, I like best the
\makeBar {d4 d d d d} syntax)
I'm convinced as far as proper notation goes. But I'd still like to
have a add time command to avoid some bugs. I agree that it's a bad
reason, but unless there's a better way to do it, some notation won't work.
In an ideal world we wouldn't need workarounds like this, but it's
useful to have a fudge factor \partial. Perhaps we could rename it,
and hide it somewhere in the manual under advanced tweaks? :)
Here's the example (and the only time I use \partial inside a piece)
\layout{ ragged-right = ##t }
\relative c'' { \new Staff {
%\cadenzaOn
g1
\key g \major \time 2/2
%\partial 64 s64
\acciaccatura{ c16[ b a] }
%\cadenzaOff
g1
} \new Staff {
c,1
\key g \major \time 2/2
%s64
c1
}
}
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Re: Problem with \partial
Juergen Reuter wrote: For example, if a song with 4/4 meter starts with \partial 4 f4, the last bar should, by convention, have a total length of 3 quarter notes. Having said that, you never should use \partial or \upbeat somewhere within a piece. If lily nevertheless accepts it within a piece without issuing an error or warning, I consider this a bug. Having a bar within a piece that differs in length from the foreassigned meter is a different concept. In my example, I _did_ state \noTimeSignature c4 c c c | d d d d \partial 4 d | c c c c ... and some contemporary music may want to change the number of beats in a bar without changing the notated time signature. Whatever we think of that practice (and I dislike it too :) , I don't think we should explicitly disallow it inside lilypond. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
On Friday 07 July 2006 16:34, Graham Percival wrote:
Juergen Reuter wrote:
For example, if a song with 4/4 meter starts with \partial 4 f4, the
last bar should, by convention, have a total length of 3 quarter notes.
Having said that, you never should use \partial or \upbeat somewhere
within a piece. If lily nevertheless accepts it within a piece without
issuing an error or warning, I consider this a bug.
Having a bar within a piece that differs in length from the foreassigned
meter is a different concept.
In my example, I _did_ state
\noTimeSignature
c4 c c c | d d d d \partial 4 d | c c c c
That's still a different concept than using \partial in the beginning of a
piece. IMHO, using \partial mid-piece is bad practise, because it's difficult
to read, especially in situations such as
c4 c c c | d4 d d d8 d4 d8 | c c c c
where you'll have to do something like
c4 c c c | {d4 d d d8 d4 d8} {\skip 1 \partial 4 } | c c c c
Also, \partial can, AFAIK, not be used to shorten bars.
IMHO, I think the best practise for creating a single bar with length, is to
use
\set Timing.barLength = #(make-moment ...)
at the beginning of the bar, plus a corresponding \unset after the bar. The
set/unset is of course cumbersome, which is why some people currently prefer
the \partial hack to seemingly achieve the same thing. This is in turn is why
I suggest that we add a new command. (when thinking about it, I like best the
\makeBar {d4 d d d d} syntax)
--
Erik
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Re: Problem with \partial
On Fri, 7 Jul 2006, Graham Percival wrote:
In my example, I _did_ state
\noTimeSignature
c4 c c c | d d d d \partial 4 d | c c c c
... and some contemporary music may want to change the number of beats in a
bar without changing the notated time signature. Whatever we think of that
practice (and I dislike it too :) , I don't think we should explicitly
disallow it inside lilypond.
Cheers,
- Graham
... want to change the number of beats just in a single bar or in many
bars? When bars are frequently changing in length, you probably want to
completely forget about the meter and do something like this:
\version 2.9.0
sep = \bar |
\score {
\transpose c c' {
c4 d \sep
e f g \sep
f e d c \bar |.
}
\layout {
\context {
\Staff
\remove Time_signature_engraver
}
\context {
\Score
timing = ##f
}
}
}
If you just want to change the meter for a single or very few bars, you
really should do it with the \time command (because that is what \time is
for). If you do not like the time signature change to be printed, you
still can remove the time signature engraver or set it to transparent.
Greetings,
Juergen
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Re: Problem with partial
Ah, ok; I understand. Still, I think that using \partial in this situation is kind of abuse that accidentally works. I guess the real problem here is that lily models repeat signs as bar lines; but I am also wondering how a repeat sign should actually look like, if it does not coincide with the bound of a bar (it probably should not consist of a vertical line)... Greetings, Juergen On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Mats Bengtsson wrote: One common example where people today use it in the middle of a score is repeats, where the repeat sign is in the middle of a bar (especially in combination with prima/secunda volta). Currently, LilyPond doesn't automatically take this into account. Of course, the best solution in this situation would be if LilyPond treated the measure position correctly for repeats. /Mats Quoting Juergen Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, please note that \partial or \upbeat, whatever you call it, has musicologically a special meaning: the first, incomplete bar, and the last bar of a piece or of a major section of a piece (typically the bar before the next || bar glyph) should sum up to a complete bar. For example, if a song with 4/4 meter starts with \partial 4 f4, the last bar should, by convention, have a total length of 3 quarter notes. Having said that, you never should use \partial or \upbeat somewhere within a piece. If lily nevertheless accepts it within a piece without issuing an error or warning, I consider this a bug. Having a bar within a piece that differs in length from the foreassigned meter is a different concept. Greetings, Juergen On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Graham Percival wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: On Wednesday 05 July 2006 17:54, Graham Percival wrote: IMO, \partial is just fine. If there's some confusion, by all means we can clarify the docs. As always, I gratefully accept any specific recommendations for doc changes. IMHO using \partial in the middle of a bar is confusing; I think there should be some other command that sets the length of an individual bar. Do you think it would make sense to invent such a command? I'd rather keep the behavior of \partial -- ie add an extra X duration to this bar, rather than this bar should have X duration. That said, I suppose we could rename \partial to \addTime or something like that. I don't think that \upbeat is appropriate, but we could find some other name. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 17:54, Graham Percival wrote:
Erik Sandberg wrote:
Perhpaps \partial should be renamed to \upbeat or similar, in order to
prevent this kind of confusion? (\partial only indicates that a bar is
shortened, while \upbeat indicates that the command only is relevant for
upbeats)
So what happens here?
\noTimeSignature
c4 c c c | d d d d \upbeat 4 d | c c c c
IMO, \partial is just fine. If there's some confusion, by all means we
can clarify the docs. As always, I gratefully accept any specific
recommendations for doc changes.
IMHO using \partial in the middle of a bar is confusing; I think there should
be some other command that sets the length of an individual bar. Do you think
it would make sense to invent such a command?
I think I can implement one of the following commands:
\tweakBarLength s4*5: Set the remaining length of the current bar to 5/4
\oneBar {d d d d d}: output the notes and makes sure the bar is ended after
the last one.
--
Erik
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Re: Problem with \partial
Erik Sandberg wrote: On Wednesday 05 July 2006 17:54, Graham Percival wrote: IMO, \partial is just fine. If there's some confusion, by all means we can clarify the docs. As always, I gratefully accept any specific recommendations for doc changes. IMHO using \partial in the middle of a bar is confusing; I think there should be some other command that sets the length of an individual bar. Do you think it would make sense to invent such a command? I'd rather keep the behavior of \partial -- ie add an extra X duration to this bar, rather than this bar should have X duration. That said, I suppose we could rename \partial to \addTime or something like that. I don't think that \upbeat is appropriate, but we could find some other name. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
Hi all, please note that \partial or \upbeat, whatever you call it, has musicologically a special meaning: the first, incomplete bar, and the last bar of a piece or of a major section of a piece (typically the bar before the next || bar glyph) should sum up to a complete bar. For example, if a song with 4/4 meter starts with \partial 4 f4, the last bar should, by convention, have a total length of 3 quarter notes. Having said that, you never should use \partial or \upbeat somewhere within a piece. If lily nevertheless accepts it within a piece without issuing an error or warning, I consider this a bug. Having a bar within a piece that differs in length from the foreassigned meter is a different concept. Greetings, Juergen On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Graham Percival wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: On Wednesday 05 July 2006 17:54, Graham Percival wrote: IMO, \partial is just fine. If there's some confusion, by all means we can clarify the docs. As always, I gratefully accept any specific recommendations for doc changes. IMHO using \partial in the middle of a bar is confusing; I think there should be some other command that sets the length of an individual bar. Do you think it would make sense to invent such a command? I'd rather keep the behavior of \partial -- ie add an extra X duration to this bar, rather than this bar should have X duration. That said, I suppose we could rename \partial to \addTime or something like that. I don't think that \upbeat is appropriate, but we could find some other name. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
RE: Problem with \partial
I'd vote for tweakBarLength. That makes a lot of sense, and having a
choice of that or partial means that people can use what works for them.
For example, I'm used to thinking of the first bar as being where the
music starts. If you use \partial, that becomes the nought-th bar.
That said, isn't it easier for the software (and more intuitive to the
music writer) to have tweakBarPosition, not tweakBarLength? So with 4/4
and three crotchet upbeats you'd say \tweakBarPosition 4 to place
yourself one crotchet into the bar...
But that then feels odd at the end of a section - whatever you do you
can't win. As I say, I'm looking forward to experimenting with
\timesig 4/4
\partial 2 f2 | g \bar || a | b ...
I've met stuff like that, but I expect lily'll be okay ...
Cheers,
Wol
-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
u.org] On Behalf Of Erik Sandberg
Sent: 06 July 2006 08:10
To: Graham Percival
Cc: lilypond-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Problem with \partial
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 17:54, Graham Percival wrote:
Erik Sandberg wrote:
Perhpaps \partial should be renamed to \upbeat or similar, in order
to
prevent this kind of confusion? (\partial only indicates that a bar
is
shortened, while \upbeat indicates that the command only is relevant
for
upbeats)
So what happens here?
\noTimeSignature
c4 c c c | d d d d \upbeat 4 d | c c c c
IMO, \partial is just fine. If there's some confusion, by all means
we
can clarify the docs. As always, I gratefully accept any specific
recommendations for doc changes.
IMHO using \partial in the middle of a bar is confusing; I think there
should
be some other command that sets the length of an individual bar. Do you
think
it would make sense to invent such a command?
I think I can implement one of the following commands:
\tweakBarLength s4*5: Set the remaining length of the current bar to 5/4
\oneBar {d d d d d}: output the notes and makes sure the bar is ended
after
the last one.
--
Erik
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Re: Problem with partial
One common example where people today use it in the middle of a score is repeats, where the repeat sign is in the middle of a bar (especially in combination with prima/secunda volta). Currently, LilyPond doesn't automatically take this into account. Of course, the best solution in this situation would be if LilyPond treated the measure position correctly for repeats. /Mats Quoting Juergen Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, please note that \partial or \upbeat, whatever you call it, has musicologically a special meaning: the first, incomplete bar, and the last bar of a piece or of a major section of a piece (typically the bar before the next || bar glyph) should sum up to a complete bar. For example, if a song with 4/4 meter starts with \partial 4 f4, the last bar should, by convention, have a total length of 3 quarter notes. Having said that, you never should use \partial or \upbeat somewhere within a piece. If lily nevertheless accepts it within a piece without issuing an error or warning, I consider this a bug. Having a bar within a piece that differs in length from the foreassigned meter is a different concept. Greetings, Juergen On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Graham Percival wrote: Erik Sandberg wrote: On Wednesday 05 July 2006 17:54, Graham Percival wrote: IMO, \partial is just fine. If there's some confusion, by all means we can clarify the docs. As always, I gratefully accept any specific recommendations for doc changes. IMHO using \partial in the middle of a bar is confusing; I think there should be some other command that sets the length of an individual bar. Do you think it would make sense to invent such a command? I'd rather keep the behavior of \partial -- ie add an extra X duration to this bar, rather than this bar should have X duration. That said, I suppose we could rename \partial to \addTime or something like that. I don't think that \upbeat is appropriate, but we could find some other name. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
Hi Owen! Dr A V Le Blanc schrieb: I have a problem with \partial, which doesn't seem to be covered in the docs or examples I've found. I have a piece in 4/4 with the first measure having one beat, while the last has 3. There are 4 voices, and in each of them I begin with something like this \partial 4 f4 | f g f g | and end with something like this: d4 c c bes | \partial 4*3 c c8 ( bes ) a4 \bar |. | Why do you use a partial at the end of a piece? I can simple write d4 c c bes | c c8 ( bes ) a4 \bar |. and that's it. Kind regards Thies Albrecht ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 12:02, Thies Albrecht wrote: Hi Owen! Dr A V Le Blanc schrieb: I have a problem with \partial, which doesn't seem to be covered in the docs or examples I've found. I have a piece in 4/4 with the first measure having one beat, while the last has 3. There are 4 voices, and in each of them I begin with something like this \partial 4 f4 | f g f g | and end with something like this: d4 c c bes | \partial 4*3 c c8 ( bes ) a4 \bar |. | Why do you use a partial at the end of a piece? I can simple write d4 c c bes | c c8 ( bes ) a4 \bar |. and that's it. Perhpaps \partial should be renamed to \upbeat or similar, in order to prevent this kind of confusion? (\partial only indicates that a bar is shortened, while \upbeat indicates that the command only is relevant for upbeats) -- Erik ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Problem with \partial
Erik Sandberg wrote: Perhpaps \partial should be renamed to \upbeat or similar, in order to prevent this kind of confusion? (\partial only indicates that a bar is shortened, while \upbeat indicates that the command only is relevant for upbeats) So what happens here? \noTimeSignature c4 c c c | d d d d \upbeat 4 d | c c c c IMO, \partial is just fine. If there's some confusion, by all means we can clarify the docs. As always, I gratefully accept any specific recommendations for doc changes. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
