Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
Graham Breed wrote Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:01 AM
I can demonstrate the bug with that file though. Here's an example:
\version "2.11.65"
\include "arabic.ly"
melody = \relative {
\key re \bayati
do re mi fa sol la si do
}
\score {
\new Staff \melody
\layout { }
\midi { }
}
It fails with
"""
Interpreting music...
bayati_ar.ly:5:2: warning: No ordering for key signature alterations
\key re \bayati
Preprocessing graphical objects...
Interpreting music...
/home/graham/lilypond/usr/share/lilypond/current/scm/lily-library.scm:149:5:
In procedure ly:book-process in expression (process-procedure book
paper ...):
/home/graham/lilypond/usr/share/lilypond/current/scm/lily-library.scm:149:5:
Wrong type (expecting exact integer): -3/2
"""
Removing the \midi{} line fixes it. Similarly, removing the \midi{ }
from Hans's file fixes that. So it's not that it works with
quartertones but not other inflections. It looks like it doesn't work
with any pitch-bent MIDI.
I pointed out this bug some time ago, see
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2008-06/msg00642.html
but at the time no one verified it so it didn't make it to the bug list.
Now
you have verified it I'll post it there now.
Trevor
___
lilypond-devel mailing list
lilypond-devel@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
On 11 Dec 2008, at 04:47, Graham Breed wrote: Yes, but nobody agrees on what that intermediate pitch *is* do they? And Arab pop music really does use equally tempered synthesizers however much the purists may object. It may in fact be even more complicated: the intermediate pitch (or absence thereof) may depend on the position it has in the scale, or rather which interval is divided. In Persian music, following Farhat, the neutral second n is used to divide the minor third m3 := M + m = n + N, where is N is another large neutral, and the major third M3 := 2M = n + P, where P Farhat calls a plus-tone. These appear only in the patterns n N, n P, and n M N. In Arab music, the divisions of M3 are often written m M#. This works in E12, but in E53, M# is rather large. So I suspect that the principle of gravity or attraction mentioned here http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat.html may draw the m M# division towards n P in E53. Hans ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
On 11 Dec 2008, at 04:47, Graham Breed wrote: Now, everyone agrees that in Arab music, the intermediate pitch isn't that - in fact the guy who write it said he was taught to lower it, which agree with the values Farhat uses in Persian music (using koron and sori; see below). Yes, but nobody agrees on what that intermediate pitch *is* do they? Right. That is also true about Persian music. Farhat just gave some approximate values; E53 and Pythagorean interpretations are just that. And Arab pop music really does use equally tempered synthesizers however much the purists may object. Yes, and at Maqamworld, they seem wholly unaware of that it may be played in Pythagorean tuning, only comparing against E12 (0r so was my impression). I measured some of their sound files: the maqam Ajam (major scale) buzuq by Tareq Abboushi, F down is close to E12, and Bb close to E53. There are two problems: does the E24 setting in transposing (or choosing a key) risk say E- (half-flat) be confused with D#+ (sharp and half- flat). - This I do not know, because it depends on how LilyPond computes it. Let's assume it works fine because otherwise standard notation would break as well. Now, my question is, why is that clever workaround for the Arabic half-flat symbol in there when it could be replaced globally? The documentation doesn't give any case where you'd want to use the Tartini half-flat. In my impetuosity I've created a new init file with code modeled on makam.ly, and attached it to this message. I am not sure what you mean here - is this a question of symbols? - Then I have a vague memory that in LilyPond some symbols are (or were) hard-wired to the transposable key signatures. Hans ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
2008/12/10 Hans Aberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Now, everyone agrees that in Arab music, the intermediate pitch isn't that - > in fact the guy who write it said he was taught to lower it, which agree > with the values Farhat uses in Persian music (using koron and sori; see > below). Yes, but nobody agrees on what that intermediate pitch *is* do they? And Arab pop music really does use equally tempered synthesizers however much the purists may object. > There are two problems: does the E24 setting in transposing (or choosing a > key) risk say E- (half-flat) be confused with D#+ (sharp and half-flat). - > This I do not know, because it depends on how LilyPond computes it. Let's assume it works fine because otherwise standard notation would break as well. Now, my question is, why is that clever workaround for the Arabic half-flat symbol in there when it could be replaced globally? The documentation doesn't give any case where you'd want to use the Tartini half-flat. In my impetuosity I've created a new init file with code modeled on makam.ly, and attached it to this message. Graham arabic24.ly Description: Binary data ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
2008/12/10 Graham Percival <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> You'll want to pay special attention to ly/arabic.ly, and make
> sure you understand everything that's happening in there.
I found it! There's some stencil stuff which looks interesting, but
otherwise it doesn't do very much -- the tuning comes from somewhere
else.
I can demonstrate the bug with that file though. Here's an example:
\version "2.11.65"
\include "arabic.ly"
melody = \relative {
\key re \bayati
do re mi fa sol la si do
}
\score {
\new Staff \melody
\layout { }
\midi { }
}
It fails with
"""
Interpreting music...
bayati_ar.ly:5:2: warning: No ordering for key signature alterations
\key re \bayati
Preprocessing graphical objects...
Interpreting music...
/home/graham/lilypond/usr/share/lilypond/current/scm/lily-library.scm:149:5:
In procedure ly:book-process in expression (process-procedure book
paper ...):
/home/graham/lilypond/usr/share/lilypond/current/scm/lily-library.scm:149:5:
Wrong type (expecting exact integer): -3/2
"""
Removing the \midi{} line fixes it. Similarly, removing the \midi{ }
from Hans's file fixes that. So it's not that it works with
quartertones but not other inflections. It looks like it doesn't work
with any pitch-bent MIDI.
t'other Graham
___
lilypond-devel mailing list
lilypond-devel@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
On 10 Dec 2008, at 20:14, Trevor Daniels wrote:
Happy to add the link, but I'm not sure non-standard
key signatures are working properly. Try this:
\relative c' {
\set Staff.keySignature = #`(((0 . 3) . ,SHARP)
((0 . 5) . ,FLAT)
((0 . 6) . ,FLAT))
fis fis aes bes
fis aes aes bes
fis aes aes bes
}
It seems the keySignature is set for just one bar.
Or have I missed something?
It works if I change it too:
\relative c' {
\set Staff.keySignature = #`((3 . ,SHARP)
(5 . ,FLAT)
(6 . ,FLAT))
fis fis aes bes
fis aes aes bes
fis aes aes bes
}
Hans
___
lilypond-devel mailing list
lilypond-devel@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
Graham Percival wrote Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:04 PM
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 08:01:08PM +0800, Graham Breed wrote:
I've checked the documentation for key signatures and see no
indication that \key b \bayati could possible work though.
Say what?
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond/Arabic-music#Arabic-key-signatures
Doc team: I must admit that a link from NR 1.1.3 Key signatures to
that page would help. Also, how the Mao did I let the "Arabic key
signatures" get added without a working example there?!?! I suck.
Happy to add the link, but I'm not sure non-standard
key signatures are working properly. Try this:
\relative c' {
\set Staff.keySignature = #`(((0 . 3) . ,SHARP)
((0 . 5) . ,FLAT)
((0 . 6) . ,FLAT))
fis fis aes bes
fis aes aes bes
fis aes aes bes
}
It seems the keySignature is set for just one bar.
Or have I missed something? Either way it seems the docs
need more than just a link.
Trevor
___
lilypond-devel mailing list
lilypond-devel@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
2008/12/10 Graham Percival <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 08:01:08PM +0800, Graham Breed wrote: >> I've checked the documentation for key signatures and see no >> indication that \key b \bayati could possible work though. > > Say what? > http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond/Arabic-music#Arabic-key-signatures Ah, sorry. I was looking at the documentation for an earlier build for which I don't have an arabic.ly. Hans was using is own \bayati which may have been defined differently. > I have no clue (beyond "microtones") what you two have been > talking about, but perhaps Hans should take a serious look at what > is ALREADY WORKING in 2.11.65 before discussing new features. It looks like there is something weird with the non-standard key signatures. If you specify an alteration as (octave . step) then it only applies the first time a note of that pitch is written. > You'll want to pay special attention to ly/arabic.ly, and make > sure you understand everything that's happening in there. Okay, I'll have a look tomorrow. Where do I find it in a Linux installer? t'other Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
On 10 Dec 2008, at 15:04, Graham Percival wrote: You'll want to pay special attention to ly/arabic.ly, and make sure you understand everything that's happening in there. Have you looked it into yourself? - It goes on like bayati = #`( (0 . 0) (1 . ,SEMI-FLAT) (2 . ,FLAT) (3 . 0) (4 . 0) (5 . ,FLAT) (6 . ,FLAT) ) Now, everyone agrees that in Arab music, the intermediate pitch isn't that - in fact the guy who write it said he was taught to lower it, which agree with the values Farhat uses in Persian music (using koron and sori; see below). In addition, Arab music may not even be played in a micro-toning of E12, but E53 or Pythagorean tuning. In that case for example F# and Gb no longer agree, since M = 9, m = 4, and this accidentals alter with M - m = 5 commas (or E53 tonesteps). For example C to C# is 5 commas, and C to Db is 4 commas. In Persian music, the intermediate pitch is described by Farhat using a neutral second n, which in E53 gets the value 6 commas. There result a koron p that lowers 3 commas, and a sori > that raises 2 commas. Note the asymmetry: the sum of the p and > intervals is 5 commas = M - m. This so in general. There are two problems: does the E24 setting in transposing (or choosing a key) risk say E- (half-flat) be confused with D#+ (sharp and half-flat). - This I do not know, because it depends on how LilyPond computes it. If there is no risk for such confusion, then E24 is just fine, except for that the MIDI files will not sound good. So in order to lessen the risk for such confusion, I suggested using E36. The motivation comes from Persian music, where one suggestion is that Farhat's neutral second n has the value 27/25. If I keep that value, then E36 approximates it well, and it also sounds good to me when trying it in Scala. Of course, that is all attempts to find a workaround in LilyPond, which requires explicit number values plugged in for intervals. Hans ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: (attn doc team) Re: Diatonic notation system
On 10 Dec 2008, at 15:04, Graham Percival wrote: I have no clue (beyond "microtones") what you two have been talking about, but perhaps Hans should take a serious look at what is ALREADY WORKING in 2.11.65 before discussing new features. The guy set it in E24, which is obviously wrong. Hans ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
