Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Nonce is a common word. I used it in an email on the user list just this week. Nonce in crypto is used in the sense 'not once', and compactification. But perhaps people today think it is an old fashioned word. OED: "For the particular occasion; for the time being, temporarily; for once." I'd comment that almost any innocent word in English is used in slang somewhere and is offensive to one social group or another. No word is safe from abuse :-) The offensive use of nonce I see in Urban Dictionary is British. Over here in Australia there is not that usage. So I guess you better avoid it in case Brits use the code! Andrew On 14/08/2022 10:01 pm, Aaron Hill wrote: Outside of that, it is slang in some dialects and could be seen as offensive due to negative connotations. Probably best to be avoided.
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
14 août 2022 14:05:33 Jean Abou Samra : > > > Le 14/08/2022 à 13:51, Dan Eble a écrit : >> On Aug 14, 2022, at 04:03, Werner LEMBERG wrote: Or maybe \textMark and \textEndMark? I'm not sure. >>> I prefer `\textMark` over 'ad-hoc' or 'nonce'. As with Jean, I've >>> never used the word 'nonce' before. >> I also prefer \textMark. Then ad-hoc-mark-event can remain ad-hoc. > > OK, I'll go for \textMark. Thanks everyone for the feedback. Easy to remember, thank you all.
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 14/08/2022 à 13:51, Dan Eble a écrit : On Aug 14, 2022, at 04:03, Werner LEMBERG wrote: Or maybe \textMark and \textEndMark? I'm not sure. I prefer `\textMark` over 'ad-hoc' or 'nonce'. As with Jean, I've never used the word 'nonce' before. I also prefer \textMark. Then ad-hoc-mark-event can remain ad-hoc. OK, I'll go for \textMark. Thanks everyone for the feedback.
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On 2022-08-14 1:47 am, Wol wrote:
On 14/08/2022 09:03, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
OK. Does it sound better to use "nonce" for the semi-deprecated
feature as you say, or actually for the new feature? Is it clearer
than "ad-hoc"? ("nonce" is a word that I learnt today.)
Or maybe \textMark and \textEndMark? I'm not sure.
I prefer `\textMark` over 'ad-hoc' or 'nonce'. As with Jean, I've
never used the word 'nonce' before.
As an English speaker, "nonce" has been in my list of "words I know
of" pretty much forever. In my list of "words I know what they mean"
... it's still not in THAT list :-)
It's archaic, and most native speakers - like me - will have to look
it up in a dictionary.
It generally finds very narrow usage in computer science, specifically
crytography as the name for a value to be used "never more than once".
Outside of that, it is slang in some dialects and could be seen as
offensive due to negative connotations. Probably best to be avoided.
-- Aaron Hill
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On Aug 14, 2022, at 04:03, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > >> Or maybe \textMark and \textEndMark? I'm not sure. > > I prefer `\textMark` over 'ad-hoc' or 'nonce'. As with Jean, I've > never used the word 'nonce' before. I also prefer \textMark. Then ad-hoc-mark-event can remain ad-hoc. FYI, "nonce" is alive and well as jargon in at least two domains. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_nonce * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonce_word I do not think there would have been a problem using "nonce" in an internal name, but if I preferred it over "ad-hoc", I would not have used "ad-hoc" in the first place. — Dan
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On 14/08/2022 09:03, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
OK. Does it sound better to use "nonce" for the semi-deprecated
feature as you say, or actually for the new feature? Is it clearer
than "ad-hoc"? ("nonce" is a word that I learnt today.)
Or maybe \textMark and \textEndMark? I'm not sure.
I prefer `\textMark` over 'ad-hoc' or 'nonce'. As with Jean, I've
never used the word 'nonce' before.
As an English speaker, "nonce" has been in my list of "words I know of"
pretty much forever. In my list of "words I know what they mean" ...
it's still not in THAT list :-)
It's archaic, and most native speakers - like me - will have to look it
up in a dictionary.
Cheers,
Wol
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
>> OK. Does it sound better to use "nonce" for the semi-deprecated
>> feature as you say, or actually for the new feature? Is it clearer
>> than "ad-hoc"? ("nonce" is a word that I learnt today.)
>
> Or maybe \textMark and \textEndMark? I'm not sure.
I prefer `\textMark` over 'ad-hoc' or 'nonce'. As with Jean, I've
never used the word 'nonce' before.
Werner
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 14/08/2022 à 09:14, Jean Abou Samra a écrit :
Le 14/08/2022 à 03:53, Dan Eble a écrit :
On Aug 13, 2022, at 19:00, Jean Abou Samra wrote:
I now have a patch locally that renames AdHocMarkEvent into
LegacyAdHocMarkEvent
(also ad-hoc-mark-event into legacy-ad-hoc-mark-event),
If I were less familiar with this stuff, I would probably be confused
by leaving "ad-hoc" in these names while introducing not-very-closely
related things that also have "ad-hoc" in their names. Would you be
willing to use another name?
My best idea is nonce-rehearsal-mark-event.
The rest of your plan sounds fine.
OK. Does it sound better to use "nonce" for the semi-deprecated
feature as you say, or actually for the new feature? Is it clearer
than "ad-hoc"? ("nonce" is a word that I learnt today.)
Or maybe \textMark and \textEndMark? I'm not sure.
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 14/08/2022 à 03:53, Dan Eble a écrit :
On Aug 13, 2022, at 19:00, Jean Abou Samra wrote:
I now have a patch locally that renames AdHocMarkEvent into LegacyAdHocMarkEvent
(also ad-hoc-mark-event into legacy-ad-hoc-mark-event),
If I were less familiar with this stuff, I would probably be confused by leaving "ad-hoc"
in these names while introducing not-very-closely related things that also have "ad-hoc"
in their names. Would you be willing to use another name?
My best idea is nonce-rehearsal-mark-event.
The rest of your plan sounds fine.
OK. Does it sound better to use "nonce" for the semi-deprecated
feature as you say, or actually for the new feature? Is it clearer
than "ad-hoc"? ("nonce" is a word that I learnt today.)
Thanks,
Jean
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On Aug 13, 2022, at 19:00, Jean Abou Samra wrote: > > I now have a patch locally that renames AdHocMarkEvent into > LegacyAdHocMarkEvent > (also ad-hoc-mark-event into legacy-ad-hoc-mark-event), If I were less familiar with this stuff, I would probably be confused by leaving "ad-hoc" in these names while introducing not-very-closely related things that also have "ad-hoc" in their names. Would you be willing to use another name? My best idea is nonce-rehearsal-mark-event. The rest of your plan sounds fine. — Dan
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 10/08/2022 à 20:48, Jean Abou Samra a écrit : Le 10/08/2022 à 20:35, Vincent Gay a écrit : 10 août 2022 20:20:52 Jean Abou Samra : Another open question is how several marks, of any kind, should be positioned relative to each other when they are at the same place. In the example that started this thread, should the "A" mark be above the segno mark, or on its right, or on its left? Please, let the one who writes the score decide for himself. \tweak is perfect for that. I completely agree that it should be user-settable, but we need to pick a default. Besides, I am not aware of a currently existing simple interface for stacking (say) a RehearsalMark and a MetronomeMark horizontally. If you \tweak X-offset, the value has to be manually adjusted. I actually wrote a snippet last year that automated horizontal stacking for RehearsalMark and MetronomeMark. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2021-09/msg00426.html So there is some work to be done to implement automatic horizontal stacking in the first place. If it should be the default, it needs to be done first. If not, it can be done later. I now have a patch locally that renames AdHocMarkEvent into LegacyAdHocMarkEvent (also ad-hoc-mark-event into legacy-ad-hoc-mark-event), and reintroduces an AdHocMarkEvent that creates AdHocMark grobs. The syntax is \adHocMark or \adHocEndMark , any number of events is allowed in the same timestep. The default for alignment is to stack AdHocMarks according to input order. (It is the responsibility of the user to avoid dependency on event order with << >> constructs. I'm not sure if this concerning; this issue already exists with text scripts and I don't recall problems, so I think it should be OK, but feedback is welcome.) The plan is to keep \mark for now, but recommend against it in the documentation. Based on how we see usage evolve (from the mailing lists), it could be reasonable to deprecate and actually remove this syntax at some point, but this is a decision I prefer to leave for the future. If anyone has objections, voicing them now would spare me some time writing documentation and regtests. Thanks, Jean
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 10/08/2022 à 13:54, Dan Eble a écrit : In other words, it actually does make sense to have both rehearsal marks and segno signs at the same position. Between preparing caesura-related MRs, I will try allowing a rehearsal mark to occur at the same point as the other types of marks. Maybe now, after having spent some time away from it, I will see other ways to do the things that made me implement the restriction in the first place. https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/1543 Thank you Dan!
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On Aug 10, 2022, at 18:01, Dan Eble wrote: > > On Aug 10, 2022, at 14:20, Jean Abou Samra wrote: >> >> \set Score.rehearsalMark = >> \mark \default ... > Remember the reasons that you preferred that \bar send an event rather than > set a property? Maybe they apply to this too. Oh, never mind this statement. There is still an event in your example. (The lesson is this: Don't try to respond to an email after your wife has summoned you to dinner.) — Dan
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On Aug 10, 2022, at 14:20, Jean Abou Samra wrote: > > There is also \mark . I don't know if it's really that > useful. If you need this, you can just as well do > > \set Score.rehearsalMark = > \mark \default I found that interface inconvenient enough not to imitate it in the coda and segno mark implementation. \codaMark and \segnoMark are supported, but the context properties holding the current sequence numbers are internal. Remember the reasons that you preferred that \bar send an event rather than set a property? Maybe they apply to this too. % warning about this is very easy with with assign_event_once << \mark 1 \mark 2 >> % we can't warn about this << \set Score.rehearsalMark = 1 \set Score.rehearsalMark = 2 >> — Dan
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 10/08/2022 à 21:42, Jean Abou Samra a écrit :
Le 10/08/2022 à 21:28, David Kastrup a écrit :
Jean Abou Samra writes:
Le 10/08/2022 à 20:35, Vincent Gay a écrit :
10 août 2022 20:20:52 Jean Abou Samra :
Another open question is how several marks, of any kind, should be
positioned relative to each other when they are at the same place.
In the example that started this thread, should the "A" mark be above
the segno mark, or on its right, or on its left?
Please, let the one who writes the score decide for himself. \tweak
is perfect for that.
I completely agree that it should be user-settable, but
we need to pick a default.
\markup \line \etc
What about
\adHocMark ""
\tweak color "red" \adHocMark ""
This might output the same thing as
\adHocMark \markup \line { \with-color "red" }
but how would one compute it automatically?
Actually a more relevant example would be
\adHocMark ""
\tweak layer #x \adHocMark ""
A single grob can't print material on two layers with the current tools.
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 10/08/2022 à 21:28, David Kastrup a écrit :
Jean Abou Samra writes:
Le 10/08/2022 à 20:35, Vincent Gay a écrit :
10 août 2022 20:20:52 Jean Abou Samra :
Another open question is how several marks, of any kind, should be
positioned relative to each other when they are at the same place.
In the example that started this thread, should the "A" mark be above
the segno mark, or on its right, or on its left?
Please, let the one who writes the score decide for himself. \tweak
is perfect for that.
I completely agree that it should be user-settable, but
we need to pick a default.
\markup \line \etc
What about
\adHocMark ""
\tweak color "red" \adHocMark ""
This might output the same thing as
\adHocMark \markup \line { \with-color "red" }
but how would one compute it automatically?
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Jean Abou Samra writes: > Le 10/08/2022 à 20:35, Vincent Gay a écrit : >> 10 août 2022 20:20:52 Jean Abou Samra : >> >>> Another open question is how several marks, of any kind, should be >>> positioned relative to each other when they are at the same place. >>> In the example that started this thread, should the "A" mark be above >>> the segno mark, or on its right, or on its left? >> Please, let the one who writes the score decide for himself. \tweak >> is perfect for that. > > > I completely agree that it should be user-settable, but > we need to pick a default. \markup \line \etc -- David Kastrup
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 10/08/2022 à 20:35, Vincent Gay a écrit : 10 août 2022 20:20:52 Jean Abou Samra : Another open question is how several marks, of any kind, should be positioned relative to each other when they are at the same place. In the example that started this thread, should the "A" mark be above the segno mark, or on its right, or on its left? Please, let the one who writes the score decide for himself. \tweak is perfect for that. I completely agree that it should be user-settable, but we need to pick a default. Besides, I am not aware of a currently existing simple interface for stacking (say) a RehearsalMark and a MetronomeMark horizontally. If you \tweak X-offset, the value has to be manually adjusted. I actually wrote a snippet last year that automated horizontal stacking for RehearsalMark and MetronomeMark. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2021-09/msg00426.html So there is some work to be done to implement automatic horizontal stacking in the first place. If it should be the default, it needs to be done first. If not, it can be done later.
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
10 août 2022 20:20:52 Jean Abou Samra : > Another open question is how several marks, of any kind, should be > positioned relative to each other when they are at the same place. > In the example that started this thread, should the "A" mark be above > the segno mark, or on its right, or on its left? Please, let the one who writes the score decide for himself. \tweak is perfect for that.
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 10/08/2022 à 19:30, Vincent Gay a écrit : Le 10/08/2022 à 05:01, Dan Eble a écrit : Can you clarify for me what you wanted to achieve? Finally I can say things differently. In jazz we don't use (or rarely use) reheasalmarks like in classical music. On the other hand we need various text systems that can sometimes (often) overlap. I had a very interesting discussion with Jean where he explained me the philosophy behind the technical choices made by the Lilypond team, especially in terms of repeats (D.S., D.C., coda...). In short, I hope I'm not distorting, your ambition would be What You Say Is What You Get. This would be wonderful in a world of closed, known concepts, like 19th century music. But difficult to live in another world. So OK, let's keep the rehearsalmarks to be only what they are supposed to be, but please give us system texts to put wherever we want as we want. I was thinking along the same lines. Looking at https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/3425 and https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/5631, it may be a good idea to introduce a separate AdHocMark (or whatever name) grob, with dedicated commands \adHocMark (beginning or middle of line, break-visibility = end-of-line-invisible) and \adHocEndMark (middle or end of line, break-visibility = begin-of-line-invisible). We’d have specific marks for specific cases (RehearsalMark CodaMark SegnoMark JumpScript SectionLabel) and ad hoc marks would be a "do whatever you want" feature for all the rest. If we additionally introduce \rehearsalMark as doing the same as \mark \default, we'd have the nice mapping \rehearsalMark → RehearsalMark \adHocMark → AdHocMark \codaMark → CodaMark \segnoMark → SegnoMark An open question is whether \mark should then enter a deprecation cycle. It's a widely used command, so we'd have to consider that carefully. There is also \mark . I don't know if it's really that useful. If you need this, you can just as well do \set Score.rehearsalMark = \mark \default Another open question is how several marks, of any kind, should be positioned relative to each other when they are at the same place. In the example that started this thread, should the "A" mark be above the segno mark, or on its right, or on its left? Best, Jean
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 10/08/2022 à 05:01, Dan Eble a écrit : Can you clarify for me what you wanted to achieve? Finally I can say things differently. In jazz we don't use (or rarely use) reheasalmarks like in classical music. On the other hand we need various text systems that can sometimes (often) overlap. I had a very interesting discussion with Jean where he explained me the philosophy behind the technical choices made by the Lilypond team, especially in terms of repeats (D.S., D.C., coda...). In short, I hope I'm not distorting, your ambition would be What You Say Is What You Get. This would be wonderful in a world of closed, known concepts, like 19th century music. But difficult to live in another world. So OK, let's keep the rehearsalmarks to be only what they are supposed to be, but please give us system texts to put wherever we want as we want. -- Vincent Gay Envoyé depuis mon saxo-phone :) https://myrealbook.vintherine.org/ - http://photos.vintherine.org/
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 10/08/2022 à 05:01, Dan Eble a écrit : I read a machine translation of the thread on lilypond-user-fr, and I thought that probably you did not really want to print a rehearsal mark and a segno simultaneously. But yes, Dan, it's really what I need. Your experience is in classical music, mine is in jazz. A rehearsal mark is not only a marker but also a shape indicator (including the famous AABA). And a Segno will be on such a mark 99 times out of 100. Open a Realbook and you will find hundreds of examples. Airegin, Sonny Rollins, New Realbook 1, page 2 In the same place (beginning of the 2nd line) a rehearsalmark, a rhythmic indicator (Swing) and a Segno. -- Vincent Gay Envoyé depuis mon saxo-phone :) https://myrealbook.vintherine.org/ -http://photos.vintherine.org/
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On 2022-08-09 8:01 pm, Dan Eble wrote:
The marks that \repeat segno creates are intended to identify points
of repetition and departure for performance. Having one of those, I
do not understand why one would want to identify the same point with a
second mark for rehearsal.
Surely this is about providing more information. A segno or coda mark
is just a flag in the ground, whereas rehearsal marks can help clarify
the context of the piece.
In my own work (still on 2.22), I use rehearsal marks to label the main
sections of the piece ("Verses", "Chorus", etc.). It is easy for me to
then say to my singers "let's run the chorus again" or "pick it up a
measure before the bridge".
Now a very common pattern is for the chorus of a song to get repeated
after a bridge. Assuming I do not have the room to just duplicate the
chorus inline, this often requires using a D.S. instruction and placing
both the "Chorus" section label and a segno mark at the same point in
the song. I handle this manually right now by creating one mark that
combines the content of both items.
-- Aaron
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
Le 10/08/2022 à 13:54, Dan Eble a écrit : On Aug 10, 2022, at 00:38, Werner LEMBERG wrote: Just imagine a piece (say, a waltz by Johann Strauss[*]) that has not a single segno, but a bunch of them. It might confuse an orchestra if the conductor asks to start 'at the segno' during a rehearsal – from experience I can tell you that at least one musician will ask 'which one?'… Then that score is not an example of using a segno and a rehearsal mark at the same point. It is an example of ambiguous segni, and stacking rehearsal marks on top of them addresses only half of the issue: the D.S. instructions remain ambiguous. As a musician, if I see Segno Dal Segno Segno Dal Segno Segno Dal Segno I will understand it as |: :| |: :| |: :| It is technically ambiguous, but I understand what is meant, especially if the segni are removed from each other. In other words, it actually does make sense to have both rehearsal marks and segno signs at the same position. Between preparing caesura-related MRs, I will try allowing a rehearsal mark to occur at the same point as the other types of marks. Maybe now, after having spent some time away from it, I will see other ways to do the things that made me implement the restriction in the first place. I would like advice on whether it would be ideal to split Mark_engraver into Rehearsal_mark_engraver and Performance_mark_engraver. To be sure I understand: what would be the respective responsibilities of these engravers? Thanks, Jean
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On Aug 10, 2022, at 00:38, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > > Just imagine a piece (say, a waltz by Johann Strauss[*]) that has not > a single segno, but a bunch of them. It might confuse an orchestra if > the conductor asks to start 'at the segno' during a rehearsal – from > experience I can tell you that at least one musician will ask 'which > one?'… Then that score is not an example of using a segno and a rehearsal mark at the same point. It is an example of ambiguous segni, and stacking rehearsal marks on top of them addresses only half of the issue: the D.S. instructions remain ambiguous. > In other words, it actually does make sense to have both rehearsal > marks and segno signs at the same position. Between preparing caesura-related MRs, I will try allowing a rehearsal mark to occur at the same point as the other types of marks. Maybe now, after having spent some time away from it, I will see other ways to do the things that made me implement the restriction in the first place. I would like advice on whether it would be ideal to split Mark_engraver into Rehearsal_mark_engraver and Performance_mark_engraver. I recall that my primary reason for keeping them all together originally was a concern that we might discover interdependencies between different types of marks that are easier to manage with one engraver in charge, and I thought it would probably be easier to start with one and split it in a future release than to go the other way. — Dan
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
>> {
>> c'1
>> \mark \default
>> \repeat segno 2 {
>> c'1
>> }
>> }
> The marks that \repeat segno creates are intended to identify points
> of repetition and departure for performance. Having one of those, I
> do not understand why one would want to identify the same point with
> a second mark for rehearsal.
Just imagine a piece (say, a waltz by Johann Strauss[*]) that has not
a single segno, but a bunch of them. It might confuse an orchestra if
the conductor asks to start 'at the segno' during a rehearsal – from
experience I can tell you that at least one musician will ask 'which
one?'...
In other words, it actually does make sense to have both rehearsal
marks and segno signs at the same position.
Werner
[*] A concert waltz by Strauss normally consists of an introduction,
five (sub) waltzes, and a finale/coda. In German this is called a
"Walzerkette".
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On Aug 3, 2022, at 17:22, Jean Abou Samra wrote:
>
> \version "2.23.12"
>
> {
> c'1
> \mark \default
> \repeat segno 2 {
> c'1
> }
> }
>
>
> A power user on -user-fr is frustrated that the above
> doesn't work, as rehearsal-mark-event and segno-mark-event
> are mutually exclusive at the same time step.
Vincent,
The marks that \repeat segno creates are intended to identify points of
repetition and departure for performance. Having one of those, I do not
understand why one would want to identify the same point with a second mark for
rehearsal.
I read a machine translation of the thread on lilypond-user-fr, and I thought
that probably you did not really want to print a rehearsal mark and a segno
simultaneously. Can you clarify for me what you wanted to achieve?
—
Dan
Re: Can't have rehearsal mark and segno mark at same moment
On Aug 3, 2022, at 17:22, Jean Abou Samra wrote:
>
> \version "2.23.12"
>
> {
> c'1
> \mark \default
> \repeat segno 2 {
> c'1
> }
> }
>
> A power user on -user-fr is frustrated that the above
> doesn't work, as rehearsal-mark-event and segno-mark-event
> are mutually exclusive at the same time step.
I'm willing to discuss it, but I don't think you should open an issue yet.
I try to be conservative because it's easier to relax the rules than to tighten
them. I have tried to keep in mind the possibility of creating new features
where LilyPond uses "the" label at a given point of the piece. (The jump
instructions already do some of this.)
Having both a rehearsal mark and a segno seems like an unusual editorial
choice, where it might make sense to force power users into workarounds so that
more casual users can benefit from the warning.
Before discussing solutions, what are the details of the use case?
* Is this about true rehearsal marks, or one of the (ahem) creative uses of
rehearsal marks that are floating around in snippets? (e.g., fermata, CD track
number)
* Does the user want the rehearsal mark to appear in addition to or in lieu of
the segno?
* What does the user expect the automatic jump instruction to say?
* Are these the user's personal preferences, or are there historical examples?
Regards,
—
Dan
