discrete slurs and ties
Due to this marvellous video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=345o3Wu95Qo I have learned that short slurs and ties aren't engraved manually; instead, there are ready-to-use stamps. In other words, since the number of such stamps is limited, tie and slur shapes become discrete if their length is below a certain threshold. Do we handle this similarly? People can argue that this is an unnecessary limitation; lilypond can do a `better' job. However, I'm not sure whether we should do better... Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: discrete slurs and ties
On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org wrote: Due to this marvellous video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=345o3Wu95Qo I have learned that short slurs and ties aren't engraved manually; instead, there are ready-to-use stamps. In other words, since the number of such stamps is limited, tie and slur shapes become discrete if their length is below a certain threshold. Do we handle this similarly? People can argue that this is an unnecessary limitation; lilypond can do a `better' job. However, I'm not sure whether we should do better... We should, definitely! There are bad tie and slur shapes in Lily, but this is not due to not having discrete lengths. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: discrete slurs and ties
People can argue that this is an unnecessary limitation; lilypond can do a `better' job. However, I'm not sure whether we should do better... We should, definitely! There are bad tie and slur shapes in Lily, but this is not due to not having discrete lengths. Umm, yes. I've meant: Should lilypond do a `better' job than the engravers working with those stamps? I say no. This limitation has become part of the appearance of well-crafted scores. Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: discrete slurs and ties
Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes: People can argue that this is an unnecessary limitation; lilypond can do a `better' job. However, I'm not sure whether we should do better... We should, definitely! There are bad tie and slur shapes in Lily, but this is not due to not having discrete lengths. Umm, yes. I've meant: Should lilypond do a `better' job than the engravers working with those stamps? I say no. This limitation has become part of the appearance of well-crafted scores. Frankly, I don't see the point in simulating well-craftedness by artificially introducing minor deficiencies associated with some of the better work. We don't make slightly eroded staff lines copying the wear and tear on the tools of particularly renowned publishers, either. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: discrete slurs and ties
On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org wrote: We should, definitely! There are bad tie and slur shapes in Lily, but this is not due to not having discrete lengths. Umm, yes. I've meant: Should lilypond do a `better' job than the engravers working with those stamps? I understand. On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 11:31 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Frankly, I don't see the point in simulating well-craftedness by artificially introducing minor deficiencies associated with some of the better work. We don't make slightly eroded staff lines copying the wear and tear on the tools of particularly renowned publishers, either. +1 @Werner: i could live with an *option* doing this, but i doubt that people are interested in writing it. And i think we have much, much, much more important stuff to work on. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: discrete slurs and ties
Frankly, I don't see the point in simulating well-craftedness by artificially introducing minor deficiencies associated with some of the better work. @Werner: i could live with an *option* doing this, but i doubt that people are interested in writing it. And i think we have much, much, much more important stuff to work on. I think I was still unclear, since you both missed my point. The engraver's main deficiencies IMHO were imprecise positioning of the stamped beams. But using stamps instead of hand-cutting such small slurs and ties was an *intentional* decision. Lilypond already does a good job, as the attached image shows, but there might be cases where this isn't so, and adding some discreteness might improve the visual results. I fully agree that this isn't important at all currently. BTW, restricting lilypond to discrete tie and slur shapes below a given threshold should actually simplify the layout process since the number of positioning choices gets reduced. We don't make slightly eroded staff lines copying the wear and tear on the tools of particularly renowned publishers, either. Well, to be honest, this is debatable. There is something similar in the typography: ITC Founder's Caslon http://www.fonts.com/NR/rdonlyres/925BEFBB-34EE-4D67-94A6-9B018A02F313/0/FoundersCaslon.pdf With some background here (describing another revival of Caslon): http://ilovetypography.com/2010/07/26/reviving-caslon-the-snare-of-authenticity/ (And no, such an effect is not what I'm asking to implement :-) Werner inline: l.png___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: discrete slurs and ties
Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes: Frankly, I don't see the point in simulating well-craftedness by artificially introducing minor deficiencies associated with some of the better work. @Werner: i could live with an *option* doing this, but i doubt that people are interested in writing it. And i think we have much, much, much more important stuff to work on. I think I was still unclear, since you both missed my point. The engraver's main deficiencies IMHO were imprecise positioning of the stamped beams. But using stamps instead of hand-cutting such small slurs and ties was an *intentional* decision. Sure. As is using printing letters instead of hand-made calligraphy. It makes for a consistent stencil quality. But we don't have stencil quality problems. Your argument may be that it somehow helps if identical meaning is conveyed by identical shapes. But if that were actually the case, we would not need optical correction. In fact, the most common _deficiency_ of computer music typesetting is that the computer overuses mathematically correct identical shapes and placements. Lilypond already does a good job, as the attached image shows, but there might be cases where this isn't so, and adding some discreteness might improve the visual results. I fully agree that this isn't important at all currently. BTW, restricting lilypond to discrete tie and slur shapes below a given threshold should actually simplify the layout process since the number of positioning choices gets reduced. Calculating a shape does not even involve a run-time _choice_ (choices are, in my opinion, discrete), so no, this does not simplify things. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: discrete slurs and ties
On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org wrote: Frankly, I don't see the point in simulating well-craftedness by artificially introducing minor deficiencies associated with some of the better work. @Werner: i could live with an *option* doing this, but i doubt that people are interested in writing it. And i think we have much, much, much more important stuff to work on. I think I was still unclear, since you both missed my point. The engraver's main deficiencies IMHO were imprecise positioning of the stamped beams. But using stamps instead of hand-cutting such small slurs and ties was an *intentional* decision. I think it was for efficiency's sake. It takes less time to stamp something than carve it, and small slurs seem to be more difficult to carve manually, too. Lilypond already does a good job, as the attached image shows, but there might be cases where this isn't so, and adding some discreteness might improve the visual results. Maybe... but i'd have too see an example, i cannot myself imagine any situation where that would be the case. We don't make slightly eroded staff lines copying the wear and tear on the tools of particularly renowned publishers, either. Well, to be honest, this is debatable. There is something similar in the typography: ITC Founder's Caslon http://www.fonts.com/NR/rdonlyres/925BEFBB-34EE-4D67-94A6-9B018A02F313/0/FoundersCaslon.pdf With some background here (describing another revival of Caslon): http://ilovetypography.com/2010/07/26/reviving-caslon-the-snare-of-authenticity/ Interesting! Thanks for sharing :) Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
