hyphen syntax

2016-02-14 Thread Dan Eble 
Are there technical limitations that require typing a double hyphen to 
hyphenate lyrics?  Why not just one?

Regards,
— 
Dan


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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-14 Thread Noeck 
Hi Dan,

Am 14.02.2016 um 20:41 schrieb Dan Eble:
> Are there technical limitations that require typing a double hyphen to 
> hyphenate lyrics?  Why not just one?

Because this way, a single hyphen keeps its function as an ordinary
character and a double-hyphen is not a really used/required item, I
guess? If that's true, the question is in which cases a single hyphen as
a syllable is really needed ("-" would probably work, too).

Joram



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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Jean-Charles Malahieude 

Le 14/02/2016 20:41, Dan Eble a écrit :

Are there technical limitations that require typing a double hyphen
to hyphenate lyrics?  Why not just one?



Technically, I don't know. But, in terms of coherence, I would leave it 
as it is:


one hyphen is treated as one syllable, just like one underscore "skips" 
one (group of) note, and I will type my first-name Jean- Char -- les or 
"Jean -" Char -- les since it's a composed word,


one double-hypen (which may output several dashes depending of the 
length of a melisma) separates syllables of a same word, like a 
double-underscore draws a line indicating the last syllable has to last 
over serveral notes.



Cheers,
Jean-Charles

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Dan Eble 

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 05:18 , Jean-Charles Malahieude  wrote:
> 
> Le 14/02/2016 20:41, Dan Eble a écrit :
>> Are there technical limitations that require typing a double hyphen
>> to hyphenate lyrics?  Why not just one?
>> 
> 
> Technically, I don't know. But, in terms of coherence, I would leave it as it 
> is:
> 
> one hyphen is treated as one syllable, just like one underscore "skips" one 
> (group of) note

But is it useful for a bare hyphen to be treated as a syllable?  I don’t recall 
having seen any examples of that.

> one double-hypen (which may output several dashes depending of the length of 
> a melisma) separates syllables of a same word, like a double-underscore draws 
> a line indicating the last syllable has to last over serveral notes.

I think it should be reversed.  It is more convenient to use the shorter symbol 
for the more common case.  To specify a hard hyphen in a compound word, I would 
prefer something like this.

  Jean \hh Charles Mal - a - hieu - de
  (apologies if it's wrongly broken)

I’m not advocating \hh especially, just using it as a placeholder.

And if someone really wanted a hyphen character as a syllable, could they not 
use “-“?
--
Dan


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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread David Kastrup 
Dan Eble  writes:

>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 05:18 , Jean-Charles Malahieude  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Le 14/02/2016 20:41, Dan Eble a écrit :
>>> Are there technical limitations that require typing a double hyphen
>>> to hyphenate lyrics?  Why not just one?
>>> 
>> 
>> Technically, I don't know. But, in terms of coherence, I would leave
>> it as it is:
>> 
>> one hyphen is treated as one syllable, just like one underscore
>> "skips" one (group of) note
>
> But is it useful for a bare hyphen to be treated as a syllable?  I
> don’t recall having seen any examples of that.

It is rather common for skipping syllables in multiple stanzas since an
isolated - is equivalent to " ".

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Simon Albrecht 

On 17.02.2016 15:58, David Kastrup wrote:

Dan Eble  writes:


>>On Feb 17, 2016, at 05:18 , Jean-Charles Malahieude  wrote:
>>
>>Le 14/02/2016 20:41, Dan Eble a écrit :

>>>Are there technical limitations that require typing a double hyphen
>>>to hyphenate lyrics?  Why not just one?
>>>

>>
>>Technically, I don't know. But, in terms of coherence, I would leave
>>it as it is:
>>
>>one hyphen is treated as one syllable, just like one underscore
>>"skips" one (group of) note

>
>But is it useful for a bare hyphen to be treated as a syllable?  I
>don’t recall having seen any examples of that.

It is rather common for skipping syllables in multiple stanzas since an
isolated - is equivalent to " ".


It’s an isolated _ (underscore) you mean. A dash is indeed treated as a 
syllable.
I think _if_ we wanted to use - instead of --, we’d have to do the same 
kind of change for lyric extenders, else it would be inconsistent. And I 
think the double items suit the advanced functionality better (advanced 
in comparison to printing a hyphen character from a font).


Best, Simon

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread tisimst 
On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Simon Albrecht-2 [via Lilypond] <
ml-node+s1069038n187380...@n5.nabble.com> wrote:

> On 17.02.2016 15:58, David Kastrup wrote:
>
> > Dan Eble<[hidden email]
> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=187380&i=0>>  writes:
> >
> >>> >>On Feb 17, 2016, at 05:18 , Jean-Charles Malahieude<[hidden email]
> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=187380&i=1>>  wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Le 14/02/2016 20:41, Dan Eble a écrit :
> >>>> >>>Are there technical limitations that require typing a double
> hyphen
> >>>> >>>to hyphenate lyrics?  Why not just one?
> >>>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Technically, I don't know. But, in terms of coherence, I would leave
> >>> >>it as it is:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>one hyphen is treated as one syllable, just like one underscore
> >>> >>"skips" one (group of) note
> >> >
> >> >But is it useful for a bare hyphen to be treated as a syllable?  I
> >> >don’t recall having seen any examples of that.
> > It is rather common for skipping syllables in multiple stanzas since an
> > isolated - is equivalent to " ".
>
> It’s an isolated _ (underscore) you mean. A dash is indeed treated as a
> syllable.
> I think _if_ we wanted to use - instead of --, we’d have to do the same
> kind of change for lyric extenders, else it would be inconsistent. And I
> think the double items suit the advanced functionality better (advanced
> in comparison to printing a hyphen character from a font).
>

Funny you should mention that because I've always wondered why the
LyricHyphen doesn't actually use the hyphen from the LyricText font rather
than a dashed line. I realize that doing that would reduce the
customizability of the dash (i.e., length, thickness, dash-period, etc.),
but it might it immediately look more homogeneous regardless of the font
used because they are designed to match each other. Not a big deal, just
curious.

Best,
Abraham




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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread David Kastrup 
Simon Albrecht  writes:

> On 17.02.2016 15:58, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Dan Eble  writes:
>>
 >>On Feb 17, 2016, at 05:18 , Jean-Charles
 >> Malahieude wrote:
 >>
 >>Le 14/02/2016 20:41, Dan Eble a écrit :
> >>>Are there technical limitations that require typing a double hyphen
> >>>to hyphenate lyrics?  Why not just one?
> >>>
 >>
 >>Technically, I don't know. But, in terms of coherence, I would leave
 >>it as it is:
 >>
 >>one hyphen is treated as one syllable, just like one underscore
 >>"skips" one (group of) note
>>> >
>>> >But is it useful for a bare hyphen to be treated as a syllable?  I
>>> >don’t recall having seen any examples of that.
>> It is rather common for skipping syllables in multiple stanzas since an
>> isolated - is equivalent to " ".
>
> It’s an isolated _ (underscore) you mean.

I do mean an isolated dash, I am just wrong about it.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Simon Albrecht 

On 17.02.2016 18:02, tisimst wrote:

I've always wondered why the
LyricHyphen doesn't actually use the hyphen from the LyricText font rather
than a dashed line. I realize that doing that would reduce the
customizability of the dash (i.e., length, thickness, dash-period, etc.),
but it might it immediately look more homogeneous regardless of the font
used because they are designed to match each other. Not a big deal, just
curious.


And I should like if there were an option to take these hyphens from a 
text font, since in some fonts/music engraving styles they are slanted 
or wavy (like ~) and it would be great to have a means of doing that.


Best, Simon

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread tisimst 
On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Simon Albrecht-2 [via Lilypond] <
ml-node+s1069038n187386...@n5.nabble.com> wrote:

> On 17.02.2016 18:02, tisimst wrote:
> > I've always wondered why the
> > LyricHyphen doesn't actually use the hyphen from the LyricText font
> rather
> > than a dashed line. I realize that doing that would reduce the
> > customizability of the dash (i.e., length, thickness, dash-period,
> etc.),
> > but it might it immediately look more homogeneous regardless of the font
> > used because they are designed to match each other. Not a big deal, just
> > curious.
>
> And I should like if there were an option to take these hyphens from a
> text font, since in some fonts/music engraving styles they are slanted
> or wavy (like ~) and it would be great to have a means of doing that.
>

That's exactly what I meant, if that wasn't clear.

- Abraham




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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Simon Albrecht 

On 17.02.2016 18:24, tisimst wrote:

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Simon Albrecht-2 [via Lilypond] <
ml-node+s1069038n187386...@n5.nabble.com> wrote:


On 17.02.2016 18:02, tisimst wrote:

I've always wondered why the
LyricHyphen doesn't actually use the hyphen from the LyricText font

rather

than a dashed line. I realize that doing that would reduce the
customizability of the dash (i.e., length, thickness, dash-period,

etc.),

but it might it immediately look more homogeneous regardless of the font
used because they are designed to match each other. Not a big deal, just
curious.

And I should like if there were an option to take these hyphens from a
text font, since in some fonts/music engraving styles they are slanted
or wavy (like ~) and it would be great to have a means of doing that.


That's exactly what I meant, if that wasn't clear.


Yes, you were. I only wanted to add my thoughts.

Best, Simon

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Noeck 
Hi,

Am 17.02.2016 um 17:54 schrieb Simon Albrecht:
> And I think the double items suit the advanced functionality better

I thought about this when Dan wrote his first mail, but I wanted to keep
my comment short. I think many of you know the fun you can have with
backslashes and escaping (as in http://xkcd.org/1638/). So it is a good
idea to use rare expressions for special functionality to avoid escaping
to get back to the original thing (\ or -).

But the hyphen is just the most natural thing in a lyricmode
environment. People asked on this list about it and also in scores
online I see people using single hyphens because they are just natural.
Some try 'a - b', realize it uses 3 notes and then go for 'a- b'.
Technically, soft hyphens would be nice (U+00AD) but who wants to enter
that (and its invisible in the code).

My impression of LilyPond is: The core functionality is very cleverly
designed and very concise, just think about { a4:16-.->\f( }. One could
have invented something like \notemode {
a1/4\tremolo{1/16}\staccato\accent\dynamic{f}\startSlur }. This was only
obtained by defining the reasonably shortest syntax for the most
frequent items.

So I agree with the sentiment I read from Dan's first mail: The single
hyphen would be natural to separate syllables. For the rare case of a
literal single hyphen, I think "-" is a fair way to get it. Or to come
back to the quote I started with: IMHO a lyric hyphen is not advanced.

Just my comment.
Joram

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Simon Albrecht 

On 17.02.2016 23:22, Noeck wrote:

Or to come
back to the quote I started with: IMHO a lyric hyphen is not advanced.


You should have come back to the entire quote: ‘And I think the double 
items suit the advanced functionality better (advanced in comparison to 
printing a hyphen character from a font).’ I didn’t mean ‘advanced’ in 
the sense of ‘only for advanced users’ or ‘rare’.

‘-’ prints a hyphen.
‘--’ checks how much space is available, and inserts either nothing, a 
short hyphen, a full hyphen or multiple hyphens for longer stretches.
If we were discussing ‘syl-la-ble’ instead of ‘syl -- la -- ble’ now, 
this would be a relevant advantage, since one would have to type one 
character instead of four. [Of course, this would force us to use 
quotes, if any literal hyphens were to occur inside a word.]
But three characters versus four characters to type doesn’t seem enough 
of a difference to justify the change.


Best, Simon

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Noeck 
Hi Simon,

> You should have come back to the entire quote: ‘And I think the double
> items suit the advanced functionality better (advanced in comparison to
> printing a hyphen character from a font).’ I didn’t mean ‘advanced’ in
> the sense of ‘only for advanced users’ or ‘rare’.

I know. I'm sorry to misuse the quote a bit. Your sentence just made me
want to write what I was thinking before – even though it did not fully
fit to your statement.

> But three characters versus four characters to type doesn’t seem enough
> of a difference to justify the change.

That might well be true. I am undecided myself. I think I like the
single hyphen (syl - la - ble) still ;)

Cheers,
Joram

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread David Kastrup 
Noeck  writes:

> Hi Simon,
>
>> You should have come back to the entire quote: ‘And I think the double
>> items suit the advanced functionality better (advanced in comparison to
>> printing a hyphen character from a font).’ I didn’t mean ‘advanced’ in
>> the sense of ‘only for advanced users’ or ‘rare’.
>
> I know. I'm sorry to misuse the quote a bit. Your sentence just made me
> want to write what I was thinking before – even though it did not fully
> fit to your statement.
>
>> But three characters versus four characters to type doesn’t seem enough
>> of a difference to justify the change.
>
> That might well be true. I am undecided myself. I think I like the
> single hyphen (syl - la - ble) still ;)

I think the main problem we should aim to solve is that the occasional
user just does not remember what's what.  __ is a lyric extender, -- is
a lyric hyphen, _ is a non-syllable-separating space, - is a normal
dash, ~ is an undertie.  All of the single-character entities will
become part of the syllable they are in (even if they are alone), the
double characters however augment the previous syllable.

That's sort of systematic, except that the system is not explained
anywhere.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Dan Eble 
On Feb 17, 2016, at 18:17 , David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> I think the main problem we should aim to solve is that the occasional
> user just does not remember what's what.  __ is a lyric extender, -- is
> a lyric hyphen, _ is a non-syllable-separating space, - is a normal
> dash, ~ is an undertie.

- as a lyric hyphen and __ as a lyric extender are both highly mnemonic.

~ is consistent with ties in the music.

There are probably multiple alternatives to _ that would not be so easily 
confused with __.
For example, “”.  It’s tricky, but it’s also systematic in its own way.
— 
Dan


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(OT) Re: hyphen syntax

2016-02-17 Thread Simon Albrecht 

On 17.02.2016 23:22, Noeck wrote:

I think many of you know the fun you can have with
backslashes and escaping (as inhttp://xkcd.org/1638/).


Funny site :-) Also see that one:  – particularly 
applies to Schemers…


Best, Simon

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