Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:46:00PM -0700, Mark Polesky wrote:
> Graham Percival wrote:
> 
> > Besides, asking our users to advertize our site will *also* be
> > easier when we have a new site.  I mean, it gives a good excuse to
> > motivate people, right?
> 
> Oh, maybe I misread your earlier comment. I was thinking
> links,
> not announcements.

Well, I'm thinking about both.  I mean, annoucements would surely
contain links, right?  :)

> > The meta description field, or the "what is lilypond" box? If
> > you're talking about the "what is lilypond" box, then please
> > supply the exact new text you're proposing.  I'm completely fed up
> > with crafting and re-crafting those two (or more) sentences.
> 
> From an SEO perspective, the meta description is worth a lot more
> than the "What is LilyPond" box:
> 
> 

I'm *totally* fine with that.

> > I'm happy to accept a compliment, but I don't understand the
> > comment.  If you're suggesting that the general public understands
> > "free", then I disagree.  If you're suggesting that the
> > "free-aware" fraction of the population outnumbers the
> > "non-free-aware" fraction of the population, then I also disagree.
> 
> I think you wrote something about the word "free" being a
> detractor for certain demographics. And I wasn't referring to
> "free-aware" either. All I was suggesting was that I think you'll
> attract more customers than you'll detract if you have "free" in
> your target phrase. Because we Americans are greedy.

But also cynical.  TASATAAFL, remember?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't include "free"; I'm just saying
that after we explain what "free" means, we should explain why we
do it.  Otherwise all those nasty cynical Americans are going to
assume that it's "too good to be true".  :)

I mean, in many ways, the free open-source movement *is* "too good
to be true".  But unlike all the scams that sound too good to be
true, it actually *is* true.  I think we need to explain/reassure
people that we're not crazy (or scammers).

> > In any case, I can't believe that "Why do developers work on free
> > software", in a special box of its own, would make the website
> > harder to navigate.
> 
> No, it won't. I think Jan was just saying that there might be a
> better place for it. I actually like that section. Maybe it could
> go somewhere else, but I don't know. It's pretty small right now.
> It doesn't really bother me there. It is a little FAQy; if we had
> an on-site FAQ, that would be a better place. But whatever, there
> are probably more important things to work on anyway.

Remember my claim that a FAQ is simply a sign of bad
documentation?  :)   Yes, we have a FAQ now... although it's not
added to the build system yet... but that FAQ will *only* contain
links to the rest of the docs.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: markup help

[Mark Polesky]

James E. Bailey wrote:
> Reading the documentation, I don't understand why this doesn't work:
> \version "2.12.2"
>
> \markup {
>\musicglyph #"scripts.zero"
>\musicglyph #"scripts.one"
>...
> }

The glyph names for the numbers don't begin with "scripts.".
Do this instead:

\markup {
   \musicglyph #"zero"
   \musicglyph #"one"
   ...
}

Incidentally, you can see all the correct glyph names here:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond/The-Feta-font

Though I reorganized them for 2.13. Hopefully you'll find this
version easier to read:
http://kainhofer.com/~lilypond/Documentation/notation/index_54.html

- Mark



  


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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Mark Polesky]

Graham Percival wrote:

> And even if some of our users *are* the webmasters, it doesn't
> make sense for them to add a big annoucement about lilypond at
> thie moment, does it?
> 
> Besides, asking our users to advertize our site will *also* be
> easier when we have a new site.  I mean, it gives a good excuse to
> motivate people, right?

Oh, maybe I misread your earlier comment. I was thinking
links,
not announcements.


> > I think we could boost our rank significantly by having the exact
> > phrase "free music notation software" in our description field.
> 
> The meta description field, or the "what is lilypond" box? If
> you're talking about the "what is lilypond" box, then please
> supply the exact new text you're proposing.  I'm completely fed up
> with crafting and re-crafting those two (or more) sentences.

>From an SEO perspective, the meta description is worth a lot more
than the "What is LilyPond" box:



> > Maybe it lacks the poetic qualities of "...for everyone", but it's
> > worth discussing if you're going for SEO.
> 
> I'm not convinced it's worth going for SEO, but if you want to
> re-open the motto debate, that's fine.

Maybe you could split the difference and have the motto we like in
the  tag, and the search-phrase in the . I'm not going
to fight over this though; these are just some ideas.

> I'm happy to accept a compliment, but I don't understand the
> comment.  If you're suggesting that the general public understands
> "free", then I disagree.  If you're suggesting that the
> "free-aware" fraction of the population outnumbers the
> "non-free-aware" fraction of the population, then I also disagree.

I think you wrote something about the word "free" being a
detractor for certain demographics. And I wasn't referring to
"free-aware" either. All I was suggesting was that I think you'll
attract more customers than you'll detract if you have "free" in
your target phrase. Because we Americans are greedy.


> In any case, I can't believe that "Why do developers work on free
> software", in a special box of its own, would make the website
> harder to navigate.

No, it won't. I think Jan was just saying that there might be a
better place for it. I actually like that section. Maybe it could
go somewhere else, but I don't know. It's pretty small right now.
It doesn't really bother me there. It is a little FAQy; if we had
an on-site FAQ, that would be a better place. But whatever, there
are probably more important things to work on anyway.



  


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markup help

[James E. Bailey]

Reading the documentation, I don't understand why this doesn't work:
\version "2.12.2"

\markup {
   \musicglyph #"scripts.zero"
   \musicglyph #"scripts.one"
   \musicglyph #"scripts.two"
   \musicglyph #"scripts.three"
   \musicglyph #"scripts.four"
   \musicglyph #"scripts.five"
   \musicglyph #"scripts.six"
   \musicglyph #"scripts.seven"
   \musicglyph #"scripts.eight"
   \musicglyph #"scripts.nine"
}

Can someone help me with what I've misunderstood, and what I'm doing  
wrong?


James E. Bailey



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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:02:51PM -0700, Mark Polesky wrote:
> Graham Percival wrote:
> > But this should only happen after we have the new site done and
> > ideally translated into one or two languages.  So let's get back
> > to work and leave this bikeshed behind.
> 
> Why wait? The value of links that point to the current lilypond.org
> will not drop when we change the look of the homepage. If you have
> a website, go ahead and link to lilypond... there's no need to wait.
> Especially if you have a high-ranking website (although off-hand, I
> don't know of any among the developer lot).

I was talking about approaching sites like free sheet music stuff,
linux audio stuff, etc.  Sites for which our users are *not* the
webmasters.  In those cases, we need to appeal to a non-user...
potentially even non-musician... to take the trouble to correct
their description of lilypond.  That's much easier done when the
website is more impressive.

And even if some of our users *are* the webmasters, it doesn't
make sense for them to add a big annoucement about lilypond at
thie moment, does it?


Besides, asking our users to advertize our site will *also* be
easier when we have a new site.  I mean, it gives a good excuse to
motivate people, right?

(oh, I just noticed this is on -user rather than -devel.  Oh well)

> I think we could boost our rank significantly by having the exact
> phrase "free music notation software" in our description field.

The meta description field, or the "what is lilypond" box?  If
you're talking about the "what is lilypond" box, then please
supply the exact new text you're proposing.  I'm completely fed up
with crafting and re-crafting those two (or more) sentences.

> Neither of the other two could legally get away with that. And if
> you guys are willing, I think we could achieve the crowning blow
> by putting that exact phrase also in the  field:
> 
> LilyPond, free music notation software

I think it makes more sense to put our motto in there.  Now, I'm
not arguing that we shouldn't change the motto.

> Maybe it lacks the poetic qualities of "...for everyone", but it's
> worth discussing if you're going for SEO.

I'm not convinced it's worth going for SEO, but if you want to
re-open the motto debate, that's fine.

> And Graham, I think the endless multitudes of us "free"-wheeling
> googlers vastly outnumber the representatives of refined civility
> in Canada and Singapore. Combined. :) Take it as a compliment.

I'm happy to accept a compliment, but I don't understand the
comment.  If you're suggesting that the general public understands
"free", then I disagree.  If you're suggesting that the
"free-aware" fraction of the population outnumbers the
"non-free-aware" fraction of the population, then I also disagree.
Now, you could certainly argue that anybody who isn't aware of
Linux/firefox/free software by now won't like lilypond... but we
probably have a few users (coming from the Windows world) who
would disagree.

In any case, I can't believe that "Why do developers work on free
software", in a special box of its own, would make the website
harder to navigate.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Mark Polesky]

Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:

> I side with the general recommendation that Google gives, which is to
> focus on building a good website, and trusting that the resulting
> search ranking reflect reasonable metrics on quality.  There are
> specific guidelines on
> 
> http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=35769
> 
> For obvious reasons, I do not want to involve myself in this
> discussion any further.

:)


Graham Percival wrote:
> Perhaps AFTER the new website and 2.14 are out there, we should
> have a publicity drive where we ask our users to look for links to
> lilypond.org and send polite updates for that text to the relevant
> webmasters.  Everybody says that the most important thing for the
> website rankings are the links TO your site, not the actual site
> itself.

Well, one link from a high-ranking website does far more than ten
links from low-ranking websites. The quality of your link-network
is at least as important as the quantity of links.


> But this should only happen after we have the new site done and
> ideally translated into one or two languages.  So let's get back
> to work and leave this bikeshed behind.

Why wait? The value of links that point to the current lilypond.org
will not drop when we change the look of the homepage. If you have
a website, go ahead and link to lilypond... there's no need to wait.
Especially if you have a high-ranking website (although off-hand, I
don't know of any among the developer lot).

By the way, you can also google link:lilypond.org (no quotes) to see
who our highest-ranking linkers our right now. The UK TeX Archive,
mutopiaproject, laymusic, and some others... there are 913 by
google's count. Note well, though, that finalemusic.com only has 439.
sibelius.com has 1770.

Note also, that lilypond.org is only #12 for 'music notation' (no
quotes) and we *are* on the first page for "music notation" (with
double-quotes). We're only 2 behind Sibelius, and 4 behind Finale.

Honestly, both Finale and Sibelius have the uninterrupted phrase
"music notation software" in their html description (although only
Sibelius properly puts it in the
field). I think that helps them. But we can beat that...

I think we could boost our rank significantly by having the exact
phrase "free music notation software" in our description field.
Neither of the other two could legally get away with that. And if
you guys are willing, I think we could achieve the crowning blow
by putting that exact phrase also in the  field:

LilyPond, free music notation software

Maybe it lacks the poetic qualities of "...for everyone", but it's
worth discussing if you're going for SEO.

And Graham, I think the endless multitudes of us "free"-wheeling
googlers vastly outnumber the representatives of refined civility
in Canada and Singapore. Combined. :) Take it as a compliment.

- Mark


  


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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[Mark Polesky]

David Fedoruk wrote:

> So just hanging tough and letting the problem sit while I go on with
> some other portion of my project usually results in either finding the
> answer to my problem along the way as I proceed, or finding a way to
> ask the question.
> 
> There are the times when just going back and making sure that every
> single render error I get is solved no matter how small, ends up
> making the original problem go away. At a time like this, I've very
> glad I didn't rush to the list and try to ask that question.

That's a good approach.


> Also, remember that my time zone is GMT -8, so I am one of the last
> people on this list to see anything posted. That affects how I see
> things or how I am seen to respond to things.

At least 3 of the active source-code contributors are GMT -8...


> If I had to say one thing that is wrong with documentation is that the
> people doing the documentation assume to much about the state of the
> reader's knowledge. What may seem obvious to you, may not be to the
> person reading your documentation.

It's a work in progress. Specific suggestions are the most likely to
get addressed.


> To sum up, thanks to everyone who has contributed even in a small way
> to Lilypond. Lilypond is as impoirtant to me as Open Office  and
> Firefox combined. This is  not hyperboly, I'd be lost without it.

Don't hesitate to contribute yourself!
- Mark



  


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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 04:54:15PM -0700, David Fedoruk wrote:
> Also, remember that my time zone is GMT -8, so I am one of the last
> people on this list to see anything posted.

Same here, being in Burnaby.

> If I had to say one thing that is wrong with documentation is that the
> people doing the documentation assume to much about the state of the
> reader's knowledge. What may seem obvious to you, may not be to the
> person reading your documentation.

I disagree here.  We spent a lot of time thinking, talking, and
planning out those assumptions.

At the beginning of the Learning Manual, we assume that the reader
knows nothing other than having a slight familiarity with their
operating system.  (i.e. windows users should know what a
"double-click" is)

In the middle of the LM, we assume that the reader has read (and
understood) the earlier parts** of the LM -- or at least, that the
reader would be willing to go back and review previous material.
I agree this assumption is slightly tenuous, but if we couldn't
make this assumption, the docs could easily be three times as
long.
** if you find any instance where this is not true, please let us
know!  The LM is designed to be read sequentially, explaining each
term and concept as they come... we consider any deviation from
this to be a serious problem.

In the Notation Reference, we assume that the user has read (and
understood) the LM.  Again, maybe this is a flawed assumption, but
again, we could triple the doc lenth (not to mention the doc
writers' workload!) otherwise.

In the Internals Reference, we assume that people know a lot.
Partly because this is advanced stuff, but mostly because we don't
have enough doc writer effort to smooth this over.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Strumming rhythm for chord progression

[Christian Henning]

Hi there, first post ever. I'm trying to "engrave" a strumming pattern
for a simple chord progression. I can see how a works for major chords
but I'm struggling with sus4 chords.

Here is what I have:

\version "2.12.2"
\header {
  title = " \"Creep\" by Radiohead"
}
<<
   \new ChordNames {
 \chordmode { g g:sus4  }

  }

  \new Voice \with {
\consists Pitch_squash_engraver
  } \relative c'' {
\improvisationOn
g1
%next line doesn't work
g1:sus4
}
>>


This is what the log tells me:

C:/Code Samples/music/songs/Radiohead/creep_1.ly:17:3: error: syntax
error, unexpected STRING
g1:
   sus4

C:/Code Samples/music/songs/Radiohead/creep_1.ly:5:0: error: errors
found, ignoring music expression

Can anyone help me out?

Thanks,
Christian


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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[David Fedoruk]

Regarding those questions I didn't know how to word in an
understandable way; my reasons for just simply letting them sit
unasked is that in my experience, it means I've missed something along
the way to the problem.

So just hanging tough and letting the problem sit while I go on with
soe other portion of my project usually results in either finding the
answer to my problem along the way as I proceed, or finding a way to
ask the question.

There are the times when just going back and making sure that every
single render error I get is solved no matter how small, ends up
making the original problem go away. At a time like this, I've very
glad I didn't rush to the list and try to ask that question.

It turns out that no matter how small or insignificant you think the
error is, it has repercussions down the road for something else. So
rather than speaking or asking in haste, I choose to keep working
ahead by going back and making sure that all the little problems I
think are of insignificant are taken care of.

Regarding jazz chords, I can only speak from what I see on this list.
Others have greater insight into the whole Lilypond development
process, so I am not surprised that it was far more complex than what
I saw here.

I knew these were more complex problems than a simple lead sheet since
I've talked with guitar players and compared the exact notes they play
with the ones I know to be associated with any one chord. I learned a
whole lot from that conversation, probably more than the guitar player
thought that I learned. Again, it was a matter of perspective; how
things look from where  you are standing at the moment.

As it happened, the right people spoke up at the right time. They said
things in a concise way where I would have attempted (and probably
failed) to say the same thing in a most awkward and round about way.
There is a great deal of expertise in this group, it doesn't all come
from progammers, but from everyone who uses Lilypond, it comes from
everyone who uses Lillypond.

Also, remember that my time zone is GMT -8, so I am one of the last
people on this list to see anything posted. That affects how I see
things or how I am seen to respond to things.

Scheme: I know beyond a doubt that scheme is important. Understanding
it can make your work much easier and a lack of understanding can make
life with Lilypond a nightmare. I will eventually understand what I
need to know about scheme, it just will not be this very moment

If I had to say one thing that is wrong with documentation is that the
people doing the documentation assume to much about the state of the
reader's knowledge. What may seem obvious to you, may not be to the
person reading your documentation.

Unix/Linux man files are filled with some of the most  information
recorded anywhere. However, their terse style makes them difficult for
many new users to understand.

Lilypond's documentation used to be very similar in style. This is no
longer the case, it has come a long way from that terse man file style
to where it is now. So kudos to those who have contributed, your work
is most appreciated.

Also, to those who have contributed examples to the unofficial
snippets repository, your contributions are high on my list of
valuable contributions  to Lilypond documentation. Many times I   have
found answers to my questions  in the snippets respository when I had
about given up. For me, a picture is worth a several million words.

To sum up, thanks to everyone who has contributed even in a small way
to Lilypond. Lilypond is as impoirtant to me as Open Office  and
Firefox combined. This is  not hyperboly, I'd be lost without it.

cheers,
davidf


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Re: website menus: gradient vs. solid

[Chris Snyder]

> I'm probably not helping much by saying so, but I prefer the solid -
> it just looks cleaner, and while the gradient version stands out more
> that might be just due to the darker color, and finally, I don't think
> it's *necessary* for it to stand out so much - it's right at the top,
> bold and underlined. It probably doesn't matter that much, though.
> Either way, it's a great improvement over the current page!

+1 (to both the solid preference and the positive review of both options)

Chris Snyder
Adoro Music Publishing
1-616-828-4436 x800
http://www.adoromusicpub.com



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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 05:00:57PM +0200, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
> Op donderdag 13-08-2009 om 11:05 uur [tijdzone -0300], schreef Han-Wen
> Nienhuys:
> > I side with the general recommendation that Google gives, which is to
> > focus on building a good website, and trusting that the resulting
> > search ranking reflect reasonable metrics on quality.

I must admit that one of the recommendations from the official
google guidelines is:

Think about the words users would type to find your pages, and
make sure that your site actually includes those words within it.


> Right.  My suggestion was that new users will probably search
> for "free music software".  I seem to be the only one thinking
> this (ah, besides the finale/sibelius marketing people).  So...
> what do you think people will search for?

Right.  The website currently shows:
LilyPond is an open-source music engraving program, devoted to
producing the highest-quality sheet music possible. This free
software brings the aesthetics of traditionally engraved music to
computer printouts.

I consider the "free music software" question to be finished.


As for the general point -- I don't think that lilypond.org is
particularly well-linked.  For example, a day or two ago I
happened to be on the Werner Icking Music Archive, which describes
lilypond as the successor to MPP and that we "use TeX but is not
related to MusiXTeX".

Perhaps AFTER the new website and 2.14 are out there, we should
have a publicity drive where we ask our users to look for links to
lilypond.org and send polite updates for that text to the relevant
webmasters.  Everybody says that the most important thing for the
website rankings are the links TO your site, not the actual site
itself.

But this should only happen after we have the new site done and
ideally translated into one or two languages.  So let's get back
to work and leave this bikeshed behind.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: huge file with Japanese characters

[Werner LEMBERG]

> When I compile this file (just four notes and a few japanese
> characters) I obtain a 2.2 Mio pdf file. I'm not talking about the
> 15.8 Mio ps file.
> 
> Am I right saying it's a strange behavior?

This is a bug in gs.  If the Japanese font contains embedded bitmaps,
they are not subsetted (as done with all outline glyphs) in the PDF
but output completely.  The recent version of gs, 8.70, should simply
strip these bitmaps,[1] yielding much smaller PDF files.


Werner


[1] While I have reported this bug to the ghostscript people, I
haven't found yet time to actually check whether the fix really
works as expected.


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huge file with Japanese characters

[Michel Villeneuve]

When I compile this file (just four notes and a few japanese
characters) I obtain a 2.2 Mio pdf file. I'm not talking about the
15.8 Mio ps file.

Am I right saying it's a strange behavior?

If I want to include lots of japanese text in a score do I have to
enter specific command or to buy new Maxtor 2TB HDD ? :-)

-- 
Michel Villeneuve
43, faubourg Jean Jaurès
07700 Bourg St-Andéol
tel : (+33)(0)961468658   / (+33)(0)601981018
GnuPG Key ID  0019690E


bigfile.ly
Description: Binary data
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Re: hash/backslash confusion

[Carl Sorensen]

On 8/13/09 10:37 AM, "Mark Polesky"  wrote:

> Carl Sorensen wrote:
> 
>> Hope this helps.  It was instructional to me to write it.
> 
> Wow, thanks - that was a lot of info. I'm still trying to wrap my
> brain around it. But in the meantime, I've noticed something else
> confusing, and I'm wondering if you'd like to make any additional
> comments on this.

This is *exactly* the same issue.

Anything beginning with \ is a LilyPond string, and can only be alphabetic.
That's the rules for LilyPond.

Anything beginning with # is a Scheme expression, and follows the rules of
Scheme.

\applyOutput takes as its second argument a procedure, which is a scheme
expression.

\blanker is LilyPond parser input for a LilyPond string that evaluates to
the scheme expression blanker, which has a value of (lambda ...)

#blanker is LilyPond parser input for the scheme expression blanker

\blanker-2 won't work, because blanker-2 is *not* a valid LilyPond string.
#blanker-2 will work, because blanker-2 is a valid Scheme expression.

There is no \ string that can work with blanker-2.  When Scheme names
contain numbers or -, the only way to get to them in LilyPond input is via
#, and this can only come in constructs where the parser will accept a
Scheme input, not where a string is needed.

HTH,

Carl


> 
> I'm trying to figure it out, but it's still confusing. Any
> elucidation would be helpful.
> - Mark
> 
> \version "2.13.4"
> 
> %% procedure can be defined with "=" or scheme-style, and
> %% scheme-defined procedure names can have non-alphabetic characters.
> 
> blanker =
> #(lambda (grob grob-origin context)
>(if (and (memq 'note-head-interface (ly:grob-interfaces grob))
> (eq? (ly:grob-property grob 'staff-position) 0))
>(set! (ly:grob-property grob 'transparent) #t)))
> 
> #(define (blankerB grob grob-origin context)
>(if (and (memq 'note-head-interface (ly:grob-interfaces grob))
> (eq? (ly:grob-property grob 'staff-position) 0))
>(set! (ly:grob-property grob 'transparent) #t)))
>   
> #(define (blanker-2 grob grob-origin context)
>(if (and (memq 'note-head-interface (ly:grob-interfaces grob))
> (eq? (ly:grob-property grob 'staff-position) 0))
>(set! (ly:grob-property grob 'transparent) #t)))
> 
> % procedures can be dereferenced with either "#" or "\", but procedure
> % names with non-alphabetic characters can only use "#".
> 
> \relative { e4 g8 \applyOutput #'Voice #blanker b d2 }
> \relative { e4 g8 \applyOutput #'Voice \blanker b d2 }
> \relative { e4 g8 \applyOutput #'Voice #blankerB b d2 }
> \relative { e4 g8 \applyOutput #'Voice \blankerB b d2 }
> \relative { e4 g8 \applyOutput #'Voice #blanker-2 b d2 }
> 
> % this won't work
> % \relative { e4 g8 \applyOutput #'Voice \blanker-2 b d2 }
> 
> 
>  



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Re: website menus: gradient vs. solid

[Tim Reeves]

> >
> > I'm not certain if the question was clear, so let's do this again
> > and put it to a vote.
> >
> > These two images have the same top-level menu item selected.
> > Which is easier to see?
> > Â http://lilypond.org/~graham/solid.png
> > Â http://lilypond.org/~graham/gradients.png
> > Â  Â (ok, the background to the lily icon doesn't match the other
> > Â  Â  shades; this can be fixed easily)
> >
> > Please DO NOT complain that brown gradients doesn't fit the color
> > scheme; changing the colors (either of the gradients or the rest
> > of the page) is easy.
> >
> >
> > For the record, I vote in favor of SOME kind of gradients. Â (not
> > necessarily brown)
> > Voting will end in 48 hours.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > - Graham
> >

I'm probably not helping much by saying so, but I prefer the solid - it 
just looks cleaner, and while the gradient version stands out more that 
might be just due to the darker color, and finally, I don't think it's 
*necessary* for it to stand out so much - it's right at the top, bold and 
underlined. It probably doesn't matter that much, though. Either way, it's 
a great improvement over the current page!


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Re: polyphony in tablature

[Carl Sorensen]

On 8/13/09 10:12 AM, "Patrick Schmidt"  wrote:

> Dear Carl,
> 
> thank you for your reply!

You're welcome.

>> 
>> I think you've found a good enhancement request -- make << \\ >> apply to
>> tabVoice if it's in a tabStaff context.
>> 
>
> What do I have to do to make an enhancement request? (I hope I won't annoy
> anybody because there is already a method to engrave polyphony in tablature
> (see snippet repository))
> 

Make a simple snippet that shows the problem  (you don't need to include the
Staff, just the TabStaff) and send it to bug-lilyp...@gnu.org with a subject
like

Enhancement request: automatic polyphony in TabStaff context

Then it will get added to the tracker, and perhaps some developer (like Mark
Polesky or Marc Hohl) will decide to implement the Enhancement.  Of course,
it's possible that nobody will, and you'll just have to use the snippet.

But a polite feature request never annoys anybody.  Only insistent demands
annoy the developers, as far as I can see.

Carl



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Re: polyphony in tablature

[Patrick Schmidt]

Dear Carl,

thank you for your reply!
 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:13:45 -0600
> Von: Carl Sorensen 
> An: Patrick Schmidt , "lilypond-user@gnu.org" 
> 
> Betreff: Re: polyphony in tablature

> 
> 
> 
> On 8/10/09 2:25 PM, "Patrick Schmidt"  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Where did I go wrong?
> 
> You forgot that tabStaff needs tabVoice, and both of your constructs used
> Voice contexts, instead of tabVoice contexts.
> 
> The first, << ... \\ ... >>, implicitly creates Voice contexts.
> 
> The second explicitly creates Voice contexts.
> 
> I think you've found a good enhancement request -- make << \\ >> apply to
> tabVoice if it's in a tabStaff context.
> 
> Sorry I don't have a better answer for you.

What do I have to do to make an enhancement request? (I hope I won't annoy 
anybody because there is already a method to engrave polyphony in tablature 
(see snippet repository))

patrick
> 
> HTH,
> 
> Carl

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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Op donderdag 13-08-2009 om 11:05 uur [tijdzone -0300], schreef Han-Wen
Nienhuys:
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 3:14 AM, Jan
> Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
> 
> >> It's not that; Jan thought you were objecting to having:
> >>   LilyPond is Free Software and part of the GNU project.
> >> on the home page.
> >>
> >> Frankly, I'm still not conviced that's a good thing to add, so
> >
> > We need "free" (ie: gratis) "music" and "software" to work
> > as search terms.  We are at position #223 when you search for
> > "music software", where our most direct opponents are on
> > google's front page.
> >
> > Why is this so hard to see?
> 
> I side with the general recommendation that Google gives, which is to
> focus on building a good website, and trusting that the resulting
> search ranking reflect reasonable metrics on quality.

Right.  My suggestion was that new users will probably search
for "free music software".  I seem to be the only one thinking
this (ah, besides the finale/sibelius marketing people).  So...
what do you think people will search for?

-- Jan.




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Re: Defining new chord modifier

[Carl Sorensen]

Would you consider turning it into a snippet for the LSR, and labeling it
with the docs tag?

Also, it should have the chords tag, so it will show up in the chords
section.

Thanks,

Carl



On 8/13/09 7:43 AM, "Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)"
 wrote:

> Thank you much, I could not find in the doc about this possibility.
> 
> Carl Sorensen wrote:
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/13/09 1:13 AM, "Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)"
>>    wrote:
>> 
>>   
>>  
>>>  
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I want to use quint-chords, that is, containing only root and fifth,
>>> like 
>>> I want to define a chord name for this, to let me use
>>> c:5 or c:five
>>> 
>>>  
>>  
>> 
>> c:5 won't work; c:5 gives a C major triad.
>> 
>> I don't know how hard it would be to define a new modifier :five.  I would
>> not be in favor of accepting such a modifier into the main code base.
>> 
>> The proper modifier for creating it in LilyPond is c:5^3 (which is actually
>> shorter to type than c:five).  One can also use c^3, which is even shorter,
>> but it has the implied 5 and so may not communicate well in the source code.
>> 
>>   
>>  
>>>  
>>> and display C5 in the chord name staff.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>  
>> 
>> It requires a simple chord exception.
>> 
>> This has been nicely discussed here (the rock term for what you call a
>> "quint-chord" is "power chord"):
>> 
>> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.general/14407
>> 
>> HTH,
>> 
>> Carl
>> 
>> 
>>   
> 



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Re: Defining new chord modifier

[Carl Sorensen]

Would you consider turning it into a snippet for the LSR, and labeling it
with the docs tag?

Thanks,

Carl



On 8/13/09 7:43 AM, "Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)"
 wrote:

> Thank you much, I could not find in the doc about this possibility.
> 
> Carl Sorensen wrote:
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/13/09 1:13 AM, "Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)"
>>    wrote:
>> 
>>   
>>  
>>>  
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I want to use quint-chords, that is, containing only root and fifth,
>>> like 
>>> I want to define a chord name for this, to let me use
>>> c:5 or c:five
>>> 
>>>  
>>  
>> 
>> c:5 won't work; c:5 gives a C major triad.
>> 
>> I don't know how hard it would be to define a new modifier :five.  I would
>> not be in favor of accepting such a modifier into the main code base.
>> 
>> The proper modifier for creating it in LilyPond is c:5^3 (which is actually
>> shorter to type than c:five).  One can also use c^3, which is even shorter,
>> but it has the implied 5 and so may not communicate well in the source code.
>> 
>>   
>>  
>>>  
>>> and display C5 in the chord name staff.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>  
>> 
>> It requires a simple chord exception.
>> 
>> This has been nicely discussed here (the rock term for what you call a
>> "quint-chord" is "power chord"):
>> 
>> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.general/14407
>> 
>> HTH,
>> 
>> Carl
>> 
>> 
>>   
> 



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Re: website menus: gradient vs. solid

[Joseph Wakeling]

Graham Percival wrote:
> I'm not certain if the question was clear, so let's do this again
> and put it to a vote.
> 
> These two images have the same top-level menu item selected.
> Which is easier to see?
>   http://lilypond.org/~graham/solid.png
>   http://lilypond.org/~graham/gradients.png
> (ok, the background to the lily icon doesn't match the other
>  shades; this can be fixed easily)
> 
> Please DO NOT complain that brown gradients doesn't fit the color
> scheme; changing the colors (either of the gradients or the rest
> of the page) is easy.

The gradients are clearer, but the solid menu is perfectly clear enough.
 The choice for the top-level menu should be made on the basis of
whether gradient or solid looks best when the colour scheme is made
harmonious across the whole page.  (Sorry.)

What IS unclear is the second-level menu, where you have the problem
that the selected item doesn't have a consistent appearance -- it's
lighter, but can be light green, brown ... depending on its place in the
menu.  There I think gradients, or some other more overt selection
mechanism, are vital.

So on balance, I think that favours the gradients.

Best wishes,

-- Joe


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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 3:14 AM, Jan
Nieuwenhuizen wrote:

>> It's not that; Jan thought you were objecting to having:
>>   LilyPond is Free Software and part of the GNU project.
>> on the home page.
>>
>> Frankly, I'm still not conviced that's a good thing to add, so
>
> We need "free" (ie: gratis) "music" and "software" to work
> as search terms.  We are at position #223 when you search for
> "music software", where our most direct opponents are on
> google's front page.
>
> Why is this so hard to see?

I side with the general recommendation that Google gives, which is to
focus on building a good website, and trusting that the resulting
search ranking reflect reasonable metrics on quality.  There are
specific guidelines on

http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=35769

For obvious reasons, I do not want to involve myself in this
discussion any further.

--
Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: Defining new chord modifier

[Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)]

Thank you much, I could not find in the doc about this possibility.

Carl Sorensen wrote:


On 8/13/09 1:13 AM, "Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)"
 wrote:

  

Hi,

I want to use quint-chords, that is, containing only root and fifth,
like 
I want to define a chord name for this, to let me use
c:5 or c:five



c:5 won't work; c:5 gives a C major triad.

I don't know how hard it would be to define a new modifier :five.  I would
not be in favor of accepting such a modifier into the main code base.

The proper modifier for creating it in LilyPond is c:5^3 (which is actually
shorter to type than c:five).  One can also use c^3, which is even shorter,
but it has the implied 5 and so may not communicate well in the source code.

  

and display C5 in the chord name staff.




It requires a simple chord exception.

This has been nicely discussed here (the rock term for what you call a
"quint-chord" is "power chord"):

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.general/14407

HTH,

Carl


  


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Re: Defining new chord modifier

[Carl Sorensen]

On 8/13/09 1:13 AM, "Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)"
 wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I want to use quint-chords, that is, containing only root and fifth,
> like 
> I want to define a chord name for this, to let me use
> c:5 or c:five

c:5 won't work; c:5 gives a C major triad.

I don't know how hard it would be to define a new modifier :five.  I would
not be in favor of accepting such a modifier into the main code base.

The proper modifier for creating it in LilyPond is c:5^3 (which is actually
shorter to type than c:five).  One can also use c^3, which is even shorter,
but it has the implied 5 and so may not communicate well in the source code.

> and display C5 in the chord name staff.
> 

It requires a simple chord exception.

This has been nicely discussed here (the rock term for what you call a
"quint-chord" is "power chord"):

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.general/14407

HTH,

Carl



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Re: website menus: gradient vs. solid

[Dmytro O. Redchuk]

2009/8/13 Graham Percival :
> I'm not certain if the question was clear, so let's do this again
> and put it to a vote.
>
> These two images have the same top-level menu item selected.
> Which is easier to see?
>  http://lilypond.org/~graham/solid.png
>  http://lilypond.org/~graham/gradients.png
>    (ok, the background to the lily icon doesn't match the other
>     shades; this can be fixed easily)
Solid.

Both "Read" and "See" (regardless of colours) :-)

> For the record, I vote in favor of SOME kind of gradients.  (not
> necessarily brown)
> Voting will end in 48 hours.
>
> Cheers,
> - Graham

-- 
Dmytro O. Redchuk


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Re: website menus: gradient vs. solid

[Alexander Kobel]

Graham Percival wrote:

These two images have the same top-level menu item selected.
Which is easier to see?


Gradients.

I especially like the different gradient for the lily on the left, to 
denote that this is a link of it's own. I think a different solid 
background color in the other approach can't compete with this.



Please DO NOT complain that brown gradients doesn't fit the color
scheme;

Check. ;-)


Cheers,
Alexander


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Re: website menus: gradient vs. solid

[Hajo Dezelski]

t;> James E. Bailey wrote:
>>> Surely the calculations can be performed outside of lilypond,
>>> and then simply input into lilypond for a score, right? Or am I
>>> missing something?
>>
>> Sure, but scheme can greatly facilitate things. I should clarify
>> that algorithmic music hardly represents the bulk of my LilyPond
>> work, but I mentioned it as an example of something the benefits
>> from scheme.
>>
>> I'll try to respond differently to what you wrote earlier:
>>
>>> Scheme is, as far as I'm concerned, what other people do to save
>>> typing. In fact, I'm of the opinion that there's no need to use
>>> Scheme, it's just there if you know how to use it. So, if you
>>> take Scheme out of the lilypond learning curve, it's actually
>>> not that difficult.
>>
>> I think what David was saying in his earlier post
>> (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-08/
>> msg00323.html)
>> was that he's gotten to the level where he needs scheme to do what
>> he wants. As one example, if you need your slurs and ties to hide
>> behind time-signatures, scheme is absolutely required, as far as I
>> see it:http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=613
>>
>> Scheme enables far more functionality than simply saving typing.
>> So if you find yourself needing scheme in LilyPond, you may very
>> well find yourself fighting its counterintuitive elements.
>>
>> Certainly scheme isn't "required" to produce beautiful scores, but
>> I typeset a lot of contemporary music, and the demands of the new
>> notation are simply too great to avoid it. So, as I said, perhaps
>> it just depends on your typesetting needs.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>>
>>
>
> -- next part --
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: ThaiMusicBookTOC.pdf
> Type: application/pdf
> Size: 40894 bytes
> Desc: not available
> Url : 
> http://lists.gnu.org/pipermail/lilypond-user/attachments/20090813/ad1a5f1e/ThaiMusicBookTOC.pdf
> -- next part --
>
>
> --
>
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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 09:13:20AM +0200, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
> Op donderdag 13-08-2009 om 00:03 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef Graham
> Percival:

> Yes, that will surely work.  Let's add michael jackson sex porn pr0n,
> we'll make a million!  Smart!;-)

Oh, come on!  Lilypond users are smarter than that... now, if
you'd said Zeus/Athena sex porn pr0n, we'd be raking in the
rankings.  'course, we'd need to add advertizing before those
rankings would turn into money, but that's the least of our
concerns in this scenario.

> > If possible, I'd like to find answers that don't conflict with
> > each other.

What about this text?


LilyPond is an open-source music engraving program, devoted to
producing the highest-quality sheet music possible.  This free
software brings the aesthetics of traditionally engraved music to
computer printouts.


The beginning of the second sentence changed from "We" to "This
free software".  We already have "notation" in the motto.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)]

Also, as smart as search engines may be,  I am not sure that there is
stemming that would correlate [free] (the query word) with [freedom]
(whats on the page, in the submenu).
  

Yes, Google does stemming. However, first tries exact matches.




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Re: website menus: gradient vs. solid

[Trevor Daniels]

These two images have the same top-level menu item selected.
Which is easier to see?


Gradient.


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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)]

Graham Percival wrote:

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 08:14:25AM +0200, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
  

Op woensdag 12-08-2009 om 17:59 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef Graham
Percival:



It's not that; Jan thought you were objecting to having:
  LilyPond is Free Software and part of the GNU project.
on the home page.
  

We need "free" (ie: gratis) "music" and "software" to work
as search terms.  We are at position #223 when you search for 
"music software", where our most direct opponents are on

google's front page.



Well, we don't _know_ that google ignores meta keywords.  If it
doesn't, then what about putting
  

No, it doesn't ignore meta keywords. And it especially likes descriptions.
Don't put hidden text, that will be punished.
The most important factor in Google is incoming links and the "quality" 
of pages with the incoming links.


Bert
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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Trevor Daniels]

Graham Percival wrote Thursday, August 13, 2009 8:03 AM


Well, we don't _know_ that google ignores meta keywords.  If it
doesn't, then what about putting


I believe it does, as they were so misused.


@divClass{hide}
free software free sheet music free open pdf kyon-kun denwa free
music notation quality engraving computational aesthetics making
great music for free linux music osx music windows music hey maybe
Han-Wen can hack google to make our page to show up higher
classical engraving modern sheet music contemporary sheet music
typography
@divEnd


This crawler spam will downgrade rankings
in Google.  They specifically look for text
which is hidden or difficult to see, for
example if it is a similar colour to
the background, and drop the ranking if
any is found, and encourage people to
report websites that use any other sneaky
way of fooling search engines, resulting
in a complete ban.  Not a good idea.

Trevor



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Re: website menus: gradient vs. solid

[Patrick Schmidt]

I tend to the gradient even though I think that the gradient menu bar doesn't 
fit into the current draft as it was meant to be part of an alternate draft. 
The bar is too huge and too brown. But as Graham said: colors and sizes can be 
changed.

patrick
 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 16:41:28 -0700
> Von: Graham Percival 
> An: lilypond-user@gnu.org
> CC: Patrick Schmidt 
> Betreff: website menus: gradient vs. solid

> I'm not certain if the question was clear, so let's do this again
> and put it to a vote.
> 
> These two images have the same top-level menu item selected.
> Which is easier to see?
>   http://lilypond.org/~graham/solid.png
>   http://lilypond.org/~graham/gradients.png
> (ok, the background to the lily icon doesn't match the other
>  shades; this can be fixed easily)
> 
> Please DO NOT complain that brown gradients doesn't fit the color
> scheme; changing the colors (either of the gradients or the rest
> of the page) is easy.
> 
> 
> For the record, I vote in favor of SOME kind of gradients.  (not
> necessarily brown)
> Voting will end in 48 hours.
> 
> Cheers,
> - Graham

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Defining new chord modifier

[Bertalan Fodor (LilyPondTool)]

Hi,

I want to use quint-chords, that is, containing only root and fifth, 
like 

I want to define a chord name for this, to let me use
c:5 or c:five
and display C5 in the chord name staff.

Is there a way for this?


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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Op donderdag 13-08-2009 om 00:03 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef Graham
Percival:

> Well, we don't _know_ that google ignores meta keywords.

Reading SEO papers it is pretty much obvious that
   - it is hard to fool google, it tries to index the page
 the user "sees" it: ie, ,  and repetition
 in [visible?] text works best
   - trying to play google may not be to your benefit

> @divClass{hide}
> free software free sheet music free open pdf kyon-kun denwa free
> music notation quality engraving computational aesthetics making
> great music for free linux music osx music windows music hey maybe
> Han-Wen can hack google to make our page to show up higher
> classical engraving modern sheet music contemporary sheet music
> typography 
> @divEnd
> 
> on the page?

Yes, that will surely work.  Let's add michael jackson sex porn pr0n,
we'll make a million!  Smart!;-)

> As far as I'm concerned, there's two separate questions:
> 1) what makes the most sense for first-time and returning viewers
> on the home page?
> 2) how can we improve our search rankings?
> 
> If possible, I'd like to find answers that don't conflict with
> each other.  I think that hidden text -- either hidden through
> meta keywords, or hidden with CSS -- is a way of doing this.
> Granted, the CSS option doesn't work with all web browsers (I'm
> thinking of lynx here), so if we go that route, we'd still need to
> take some care to form meaningful sentences.

Yeah, I wrote a big rant about this a while ago.  I think it's
simple: biggest target are first time users; we need to get them
hooked.  What first time users search for (let's say: free music
software // possibly add "notation"), must be prominently visible
on the home page too, otherwise they'll conclude they didn't find
what the were looking for?

Jan.

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen  | GNU LilyPond - The music typesetter
Avatar®: http://AvatarAcademy.nl| http://lilypond.org



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Re: new website draft 8: almost giving up

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 08:14:25AM +0200, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
> Op woensdag 12-08-2009 om 17:59 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef Graham
> Percival:
> 
> > It's not that; Jan thought you were objecting to having:
> >   LilyPond is Free Software and part of the GNU project.
> > on the home page.
> 
> We need "free" (ie: gratis) "music" and "software" to work
> as search terms.  We are at position #223 when you search for 
> "music software", where our most direct opponents are on
> google's front page.

Well, we don't _know_ that google ignores meta keywords.  If it
doesn't, then what about putting

@divClass{hide}
free software free sheet music free open pdf kyon-kun denwa free
music notation quality engraving computational aesthetics making
great music for free linux music osx music windows music hey maybe
Han-Wen can hack google to make our page to show up higher
classical engraving modern sheet music contemporary sheet music
typography 
@divEnd

on the page?

> Why is this so hard to see?

As far as I'm concerned, there's two separate questions:
1) what makes the most sense for first-time and returning viewers
on the home page?
2) how can we improve our search rankings?

If possible, I'd like to find answers that don't conflict with
each other.  I think that hidden text -- either hidden through
meta keywords, or hidden with CSS -- is a way of doing this.
Granted, the CSS option doesn't work with all web browsers (I'm
thinking of lynx here), so if we go that route, we'd still need to
take some care to form meaningful sentences.

Cheers,
- Graham


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