Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[David Nalesnik]

Hi Gregory,

Here's another version which will automatically find the longest syllable.
 You can tag any one of the lyric syllables at a given timestep.

HTH,
David


lyrics-alignment2.ly
Description: Binary data
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Re: Positioning volta bracket

[Jim Long]

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 01:26:53PM +0200, Gregory Heytings wrote:
> 
> By the way, the question was: how is it possible to adjust the position by 
> hand (independently of the default position)?

In addition to the extra-offset method, there is another way.  I
most often adjust the Y-extent of the volta bracket.  This
effectively "lies" to lilypond's typesetting engine that the
volta bracket is vertically shorter or taller than lilypond would
normally think.  This affects not only how far above the staff
the volta is placed (as you requested), it also affects how much
space lilypond will reserve above the volta and below the staff
preceding the staff with the volta (the system-system spacing
for that one line).

I have a short three-line file that I read into my text editor
when I need it:

% decreasing the first number  increases the space BELOW the volta bracket
% increasing the second number increases the space ABOVE the volta bracket
\once \override Score.VoltaBracket #'Y-extent = #'(-1.0 . 1.0)

I don't know offhand what the default is, but I usually start at
-1.0 . 1.0 and adjust from there.  That starting point is
sometimes too crowded, but I read the comments and twiddle the
values until I get the output I want.  Want more space below the
volta?  Decrease the first number.  For less space below the
volta, increase the first number.  With negatives, remember that
going from -1.0 to -1.3 is a "decrease", and going from -0.8 to
-0.5 is an increase.  You can also adjust the space above the
volta (between the volta and system above it, if any) if you
like.

The effect is that, in addition to controlling *where* the volta
bracket is placed vertically, you can control the amount of
vertical space reserved for the bracket.  OTOH, extra-offset will
place the bracket where you want it vertically, but (to my
knowledge) will never change the page layout in terms of
system-to-system spacing, so it won't mess with your line/page
breaks.  That's good sometimes, but not others.

For instance, suppose you're setting a one-page piece, and it
just barely overflows to the second page, by only one
system/staff.  You tighten the fontsize and system-system spacing as
much as your aesthetics will allow, but it still overflows by just
one staff.  You notice that there is a little bit of extra
space under the volta bracket, so you use extra-offset to move
the volta bracket down.  That will move the bracket, but it won't
change the page layout, it will still overflow.

If you change the Y-extent so that lilypond thinks the volta
bracket is not as tall as it really is, lilypond will also adjust
the system spacing in the gap between systems where the volta
appears.  In some cases, scrunching the volta downward just slightly
may not only look a little bit better, but also give you that
slight bit of vertical reduction you need to get a page break
to land where you want it.  Another example is if the staff above
the volta has low notes that get too close, and you want the
volta to have more room above it.  Increase the second number in
the Y-extent and you'll get more space above the volta bracket.

Experiment a little until you get the hang of how to control
the vertical spacing above and below the volta bracket.

In this example, the first ending bracket has lots of space above
it, but not much below it.  The second ending has lots of space
below it, but not much above it.  Obviously in a real score, you'd be
making much subtler adjustments than these values, but it's just
an example to experiment with.

You *do* have to have the volta brackets on separate lines of your
layout (i.e. a \break between them) if you want to control their
Y-extent separately.  Otherwise, lilypond will keep them aligned
with each other.  Comment out the "\break" in the first ending to
see what I mean.

HTH,

Jim

%\version "2.16.2"

\score {
  \repeat volta 2 {
\repeat unfold 16 g''4 \break
\repeat unfold 16 g''4 \break
\repeat unfold 16 g''4 \break
\repeat unfold  8 g''4
  } \alternative {
   { % first ending
% decreasing the first number  increases the space BELOW the volta bracket
% increasing the second number increases the space ABOVE the volta bracket
\once \override Score.VoltaBracket #'Y-extent = #'(-2.0 . 15.0)
\repeat unfold  8 e''4
\break
   }
   { % second ending
\once \override Score.VoltaBracket #'Y-extent = #'(-15.0 . 2.0)
\repeat unfold  8 c''4
   }
  } % alternative
} % score



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Re: Files from Lilypond workshop @ LAC 2013

[luis jure]

on 2013-05-21 at 17:04 David Kastrup wrote:

> Sure, but I'm afraid that your perceived lack of precision is something
> that it is hard to find Florian at fault for since he is working with
> the terminology employed by LilyPond.

of course! it was not my intention to imply otherwise. what i was trying
to say was that using existing musical terminology to denote something
that's not quite the precise meaning, is a potential source of confusion. 

 
> You might want to take a thorough look at the LilyPond manual and try
> whether you see a feasible strategy for amending what you see as a
> fault.

to be honest, i had never paid attention to this until today, when helge
pointed out the inconsistent use of the terms "note" and "pitch" in
florian's presentation (which, as you said, was just the consequence of
using lilypond's terminology, not florian's fault, of course).

it seems the terminology is now deeply ingrained in lilypond and in the
code itself, so it's not just a matter of modifying the manual here and
there. if the community (and as a user i consider myself part of it) is OK
with it, then fine. as i just said, it never bothered me.

i just think it's not ideal. and perhaps also not quite consistent with
lilypond's spirit of caring for perfection, beauty and correctness of
music notation, which is itself a manifestation of music theory and
musical thought.


best,

lj


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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[David Nalesnik]

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, David Nalesnik wrote:

>
>
> Basically, the idea is that you tag the syllable you want the column to
> left-align to by overriding an invented property which I called `tagged'
> for lack of any inspiration.
>
>
On a side note: I think it could potentially be very useful to be able to
add markers to various grobs by overriding a property to a boolean or a
string.  There's \tag but that works with music expressions.

--David
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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[David Nalesnik]

Hi,

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Gregory Heytings  wrote:


>
>> What should the lyrics be left-aligned to then if not to the note?
>>
>>
> To each other.  This would give something like:
>
>   o
> Cccc
> C
> Cc
> Ccc
> c
>
> with the note on the first line, and the lyrics on the five next lines.
> The lyrics are all left-aligned, and the note is centered on the longest
> lyric.
>
>
I'm kind of surprised that this works.

Basically, the idea is that you tag the syllable you want the column to
left-align to by overriding an invented property which I called `tagged'
for lack of any inspiration.

Right now, you need to choose the syllable you want to use for alignment.
 I don't imagine it would be difficult to determine the longest
automatically.

The materials between  aren't strictly necessary.  Without them, you'll
just get a number of warnings.

Hope this helps!

\version "2.17.17"

%%

#(define (define-grob-property symbol type? description)
  (if (not (equal? (object-property symbol 'backend-doc) #f))
  (ly:error (_ "symbol ~S redefined") symbol))

  (set-object-property! symbol 'backend-type? type?)
  (set-object-property! symbol 'backend-doc description)
  symbol)

#(map
  (lambda (x)
(apply define-grob-property x))

  `(
(tagged ,boolean? "use this lyric syllable for alignment")
  ))



#(define (Lyric_text_align_engraver ctx)
  (let ((tag #f)
(syllables '()))
(make-engraver
 (acknowledgers
  ((lyric-syllable-interface trans grob source)
   (set! syllables (cons grob syllables))
   (if (eq? #t (ly:grob-property grob 'tagged))
   (set! tag grob
 ((stop-translation-timestep trans)
  (if (ly:grob? tag)
  (for-each
(lambda (x)
  (if (not (eq? x tag))
  (set! (ly:grob-property x 'X-offset)
(ly:grob-property tag 'X-offset
syllables))
  (set! syllables '())
  (set! tag #f)

\layout {
  \context {
\Score
\consists #Lyric_text_align_engraver
  }
}

\score {
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice = A {
  \relative c' {
c d e f
\break
c d e f
\break
c d e f
  }
}
\new Lyrics \lyricsto A {
  \once \override Lyrics.LyricText #'tagged = ##t
  Cc d e f
  C d e f
  C d e f
}
\new Lyrics \lyricsto A {
  C d e f
  \once \override Lyrics.LyricText #'tagged = ##t
  Cc d e f
  C d e f
}
\new Lyrics \lyricsto A {
  C d e f
  C d e f
  \once \override Lyrics.LyricText #'tagged = ##t
  Cc d e f
}
  >>
}
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Re: An idea for a systematic development of a large score.

[Ian Hulin]

Hi wjm and list,
On 17/05/13 02:26, wjm wrote:
> Greetings!
> After watching Sarah K Alawami's work on a score recently on this
> user-list, but not having the musical and compositional skills to make
> constructive remarks, and after reading the thread entitled 'stylesheet
> structure', it occurred to me that an approach might be found which
> might make the whole process a little less opaque.
> 



>
Here is a pointer to some of the templates referenced in the Learning
Manual as Appendix A5:

(development version documentation)
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/learning/orchestral-templates

(stable version documentation)
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/orchestral-templates

If you want to invest a bit more time, there are a couple of packages
which allow you to set up large score if you invest a bit of time in the
learning curve, both of which I have used.

One is Reinhold Kainhofer's orchestrallily, which is at
http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/orchestrallily/index.html#The-Orchestrallily-Package

There is a pointer to download the file at that address.  Once
downloaded, you may need to run it through convert-ly if running a
version of LilyPond after V2.14.  Reinhold has had to bow out of
actively participating in the LilyPond lists, but I'm sure he'd be OK
answering any queries from people using the package.

The other possibility is Mark Witmer's ly-score package at github - see
www.github/mwitmer/LyUtil#readme.

Hope this is useful.

Cheers,

Ian Hulin



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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[David Nalesnik]

Hi Kieren,


On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Kieren MacMillan <
kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>
> But of course it would be far better for this to be an
> #'after-line-breaking callback (or whatever), to optionally override the
> alignment of the first syllable on each line.
>
>
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem as though setting 'X-offset or
'self-alignment-X has any impact after line breaks are determined.

-David
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Re: Files from Lilypond workshop @ LAC 2013

[PMA]

David Kastrup wrote:

It's not as much a matter of being correct, but rather of how this term
is employed within LilyPond and its documentation.  LilyPond also uses
"event" in a meaning that contrary to common usage does not include
birthday celebrations.


"Event", of course, has been in common _musical_ usage
ever since non-focussed-pitch occurrences overstretched
the "note" concept.

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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Carl,

> Would it be possible to pass the lyrics to Scheme as a list of lists (a list 
> of verses, with each verse a list of words), so that for each syllable 
> placement it could look at the nth item of each list and determine correct 
> placement. This may require some manual line breaking (effectively a list of 
> lists of lists, verse --> line --> syllables) so that it can take the 1st 
> word of the nth line of each verse and align them.
> 
> Not sure if this helps anybody with a place to go on this idea.

I would imagine that's possible, of course…
But of course it would be far better for this to be an #'after-line-breaking 
callback (or whatever), to optionally override the alignment of the first 
syllable on each line.

Best,
Kieren.
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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[Carl Peterson]

Just thinking about some of the stuff I've been working on.

Would it be possible to pass the lyrics to Scheme as a list of lists (a
list of verses, with each verse a list of words), so that for each syllable
placement it could look at the nth item of each list and determine correct
placement. This may require some manual line breaking (effectively a list
of lists of lists, verse --> line --> syllables) so that it can take the
1st word of the nth line of each verse and align them.

Not sure if this helps anybody with a place to go on this idea.


On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Kieren MacMillan <
kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Hi Gregory,
>
> >> A tedious solution is likely doable where you basically specify
> something like
> >>
> >> \syllable #1 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }
> >> in the first stanza,
> >> \syllable #2 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }
> >>
> >> in the second stanza and so on: then each stanza would typeset the
> whole column, align it, and pick out the right row.
> >>
> >
> > That's an interesting idea.  A bit tedious as you write, but better than
> nothing however.
>
> This is far too complicated and tedious for 99% of works with lyrics —
> including, I'm assuming, yours. If your layout is [relatively] static,
> simply add an appropriate alignment override to all lyrics *except* the one
> that's properly centered:
>
> \version "2.17"
>
> theNotes = \relative c' {
>   \time 3/2
>   \repeat "unfold" 6 c
>   \break
>   \repeat "unfold" 6 c
> }
>
> theWordsI = \lyricmode {
>   one two three four five six sev -- en eight nine ten ’leven
> }
>
> theWordsII = \lyricmode {
>   \once \override LyricText #'self-alignment-X = #5 A B C D E F
>   \once \override LyricText #'self-alignment-X = #3.5 G H I J K L
> }
>
> theWordsIII = \lyricmode {
>   \once \override LyricText #'self-alignment-X = #-10 I simp -- ly ad --
> just -- ed the cor -- rect syl -- la -- bles!
> }
>
> \score {
>   <<
> \new Staff \theNotes
> \addlyrics \theWordsI
> \addlyrics \theWordsII
> \addlyrics \theWordsIII
>   >>
> }
>
> The tiny bit of trial-and-error necessary to accomplish this is far less
> tedious than David's \syllable suggestion, except in trivial situations
> (e.g., songs with less than ten syllables per verse).
>
> Best regards,
> Kieren.
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Re: Files from Lilypond workshop @ LAC 2013

[David Kastrup]

luis jure  writes:

> on 2013-05-21 at 09:26 PMA wrote:
>
>> I think a serious go at terminological precision
>> would note the distinction: pitch vs pitch-class.
>
> indeed. that's why in my first mail i said that pitch involves a specific
> octave. but i thought the intention was not covering the whole theory of
> music, but rather discussing how the word "pitch" is used in the lilypond
> manual.
>
> unlike david, i think lilypond's own glossary is correct:
>
> ===
> 1.235 pitch
>
> ES: altura, I: altezza, F: hauteur, D: Tonhöhe, NL: toonhoogte, DK:
> tonehøjde, S: tonhöjd, FI: sävelkorkeus.
>
> 1. The perceived quality of a sound that is primarily a function of its
> fundamental frequency.
> ===

It's not as much a matter of being correct, but rather of how this term
is employed within LilyPond and its documentation.  LilyPond also uses
"event" in a meaning that contrary to common usage does not include
birthday celebrations.

So the problem of the glossary entry is not that it's "wrong" but rather
that it is not of much help for understanding LilyPond.

> the problem i see is that then in the manual the term is used too
> loosely, often in a way that is not quite correct. often it's used to
> mean what i would call simply "note name".

That's not how I'd characterize the problem.

> anyway, i didn't bring this up, the discussion began with the use of
> the term in florian's presentation (by the way, i found the
> presentation very good). i jumped in just because terminological
> precision in music theory is one of my favorites pastimes...

Sure, but I'm afraid that your perceived lack of precision is something
that it is hard to find Florian at fault for since he is working with
the terminology employed by LilyPond.

You might want to take a thorough look at the LilyPond manual and try
whether you see a feasible strategy for amending what you see as a
fault.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Files from Lilypond workshop @ LAC 2013

[luis jure]

on 2013-05-21 at 09:26 PMA wrote:

> I think a serious go at terminological precision
> would note the distinction: pitch vs pitch-class.

indeed. that's why in my first mail i said that pitch involves a specific
octave. but i thought the intention was not covering the whole theory of
music, but rather discussing how the word "pitch" is used in the lilypond
manual.

unlike david, i think lilypond's own glossary is correct:

===
1.235 pitch

ES: altura, I: altezza, F: hauteur, D: Tonhöhe, NL: toonhoogte, DK:
tonehøjde, S: tonhöjd, FI: sävelkorkeus.

1. The perceived quality of a sound that is primarily a function of its
fundamental frequency.
===

the problem i see is that then in the manual the term is used too loosely,
often in a way that is not quite correct. often it's used to mean what i
would call simply "note name".

anyway, i didn't bring this up, the discussion began with the use of the
term in florian's presentation (by the way, i found the presentation very
good). i jumped in just because terminological precision in music theory
is one of my favorites pastimes...

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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Gregory,

>> A tedious solution is likely doable where you basically specify something 
>> like
>> 
>> \syllable #1 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }
>> in the first stanza,
>> \syllable #2 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }
>> 
>> in the second stanza and so on: then each stanza would typeset the whole 
>> column, align it, and pick out the right row.
>> 
> 
> That's an interesting idea.  A bit tedious as you write, but better than 
> nothing however.

This is far too complicated and tedious for 99% of works with lyrics — 
including, I'm assuming, yours. If your layout is [relatively] static, simply 
add an appropriate alignment override to all lyrics *except* the one that's 
properly centered:

\version "2.17"

theNotes = \relative c' {
  \time 3/2
  \repeat "unfold" 6 c
  \break
  \repeat "unfold" 6 c
}

theWordsI = \lyricmode {
  one two three four five six sev -- en eight nine ten ’leven
}

theWordsII = \lyricmode {
  \once \override LyricText #'self-alignment-X = #5 A B C D E F
  \once \override LyricText #'self-alignment-X = #3.5 G H I J K L
}

theWordsIII = \lyricmode {
  \once \override LyricText #'self-alignment-X = #-10 I simp -- ly ad -- just 
-- ed the cor -- rect syl -- la -- bles!
}

\score {
  <<
\new Staff \theNotes
\addlyrics \theWordsI
\addlyrics \theWordsII
\addlyrics \theWordsIII
  >>
}

The tiny bit of trial-and-error necessary to accomplish this is far less 
tedious than David's \syllable suggestion, except in trivial situations (e.g., 
songs with less than ten syllables per verse).

Best regards,
Kieren.
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Re: Files from Lilypond workshop @ LAC 2013

[PMA]

luis jure wrote:


on 2013-05-21 at 13:18 David Kastrup wrote:


It would seem that you associate the term "pitch" with physical
frequency.


no, it's not me, it's the standard meaning of the term as used in music
theory, psychoacoustics, musical acoustics, music cognition, and all the
disciplines i know that deal with music and/or the perception of sound. it
also seems to be the standard meaning in dictionaries and encyclopedias.

BTW, its cleat that pitch is NOT physical frequency, but a perceptual
sensation (dependent mainly on the fundamental frequency of an acoustic
signal).



That is not how LilyPond uses the term


fair enough, although honestly i don't see how it could be convenient to
use an established term with a definite meaning to denote something else.
imagine that, like florian, you're introducing lilypond to people with
solid background in music theory (composers, musicologists, whatever). i
can imagine that using the term "pitch" to mean something other than pitch
is going to cause confusion.


A "note" is more than a pitch: it has duration, articulations, etc.


fair enough, the term "note" has a less definite meaning, and can denote
different things depending on the use. i'd rather not comment on the
possible meanings of the term in the english language, and how it's
similar or different form the german "Note" or "Ton" or the spanish "nota".

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I think a serious go at terminological precision
would note the distinction: pitch vs pitch-class.

PA




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Re: Lyric after staff?

[David Kastrup]

Gregory Heytings  writes:

>>
>> A mixture would be
>>
>> \score {
>>  \new Staff <<
>>\new Voice = A { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." \stopStaff }
>>\lyrics \with { associatedVoice = "A" }
>>{ A-4 ve Cae- sar, \unset associatedVoice "morituri te salutant." }
>>  >>
>> }
>>
>
> That's a good solution, albeit tricky...  Thanks a lot!
>
>>
>> The problem with \lyricsto is that it also tells LilyPond to pick
>> off the rhythm from the associated Voice, and then LilyPond lets the
>> lyrics die together with the associated Voice.
>>
>
> Yes, I understand this.  I think I would personally prefer that the
> lyrics "too much" be put after the scores (and perhaps a warning
> issued).  After all there is no reason to have them disappear without
> errors.

Well, that sounds good in theory.  And it might make a reasonable issue
request.  However, the code in question, mostly allocated in
lily/lyric-combine-music-iterator.cc, is not exactly well-understood as
the longevity and weirdness of
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2010> may
illustrate.  I've spent about a week concerning this particular issue
already on the code without having anything to show for it.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[David Kastrup]

Gregory Heytings  writes:

>> A tedious solution is likely doable where you basically specify
>> something like
>>
>> \syllable #1 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }
>> in the first stanza,
>> \syllable #2 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }
>>
>> in the second stanza and so on: then each stanza would typeset the
>> whole column, align it, and pick out the right row.
>>
>
> That's an interesting idea.  A bit tedious as you write, but better
> than nothing however.  Am I right that the \syllable primitive is not
> part of LilyPond, and that this is just an idea of yours?

It is not hard to do:

#(define-markup-command (syllable layout props idx col) (index? markup-list?)
  (let* ((stc (interpret-markup-list layout props col))
 (all (apply ly:stencil-add stc))
 (me (list-ref stc (1- idx
   (ly:stencil-add me
(ly:make-stencil "" (ly:stencil-extent all X) (ly:stencil-extent me Y)

\score {
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice { c' d' e'2 \bar "|." }
\addlyrics { \markup \syllable #1 { Do Cant Syll } -- mi -- nus, }
\addlyrics { \markup \syllable #2 { Do Cant Syll } -- a me }
\addlyrics { \markup \syllable #3 { Do Cant Syll } -- a -- bum! }
  >>
}

But you'll see another complication coming right up...  One will
probably need to use left alignment after all and mess with the left
extent to simulate centering.  But how are you going to define
"centering" when the hyphen sticks out an arbitrary amount?

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Files from Lilypond workshop @ LAC 2013

[Helge Kruse]

2013/5/21 Florian Hollerweger 

>  At page 17 is a typo. You find the correct spelling here:
>> http://www.microsoft.com/en-**us/download/details.aspx?id=29This
>>  would also be more specific at the required 'module'.
>>
>
> Please clarify - are you complaining about my use of the word "module"?
>
No. I think you misspelled MS with a special character '$' and I can find
any reason for that. Is this intentionally or really a typo?

I think I took this from
http://frescobaldi.org/**download,
> where the package is referred to as the "Visual C++ 2008 runtime module",
> which I shortened to "module" mainly for the sake of avoiding a line break.

The shared runtime libraries are the main part of the "MS VC++ 2008
Redistributable Package". I would favor "runtime" over "module" if place is
an issue since the latter is over-generalized and with little information.
As I first read this I stumbled about what specific module Microsoft might
have been added...

Further I don't find the relation from the topic Frescobaldi to lilybin.
> Both are valuable but distinct, aren't they?
>
Yes,  but you placed at the the Frescobaldi sub topic. Ok, you probably
didn't wanted to add a complete slide for lilybin. But I would try separate
it a bit, e.g with a blank line.

Regards
Helge
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Re: Lyric after staff?

[Gregory Heytings]

A mixture would be

\score {
 \new Staff <<
   \new Voice = A { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." \stopStaff }
   \lyrics \with { associatedVoice = "A" }
   { A-4 ve Cae- sar, \unset associatedVoice "morituri te salutant." }
 >>
}



That's a good solution, albeit tricky...  Thanks a lot!



The problem with \lyricsto is that it also tells LilyPond to pick off 
the rhythm from the associated Voice, and then LilyPond lets the lyrics 
die together with the associated Voice.




Yes, I understand this.  I think I would personally prefer that the lyrics 
"too much" be put after the scores (and perhaps a warning issued).  After 
all there is no reason to have them disappear without errors.


Many thanks again,

Gregory

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Re: Positioning volta bracket

[Gregory Heytings]

You can use extra-offset. eg:

\once \override Score.VoltaBracket #'extra-offset = #'(0 . -1.5)

will lower the following bracket by 1.5 staff units.



Perfect, that's exactly what I needed.  (And it turns out that the offset 
of -1.5 is also the value I need.)


Thank you, Nick!

Gregory

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Re: Lyric after staff?

[David Kastrup]

Gregory Heytings  writes:

>>
>>> What is the best way to put lyrics past the end of a staff, like this:
>>>
>>> ===|.
>>> A B C D   E F
>>>
>>> The words "A B C D" are placed with \lyricsto, but how is it
>>> possible to put words at positions "E F"?  When written in the
>>> lyrics, they are simply ignored, even if the staff is not large
>>> enough to fill the line-width.
>>>
>>
>> It's probably simplest to use Lyrics with manual durations for such
>> things:
>>
>> <<
>>  \new Staff { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." }
>>  \lyrics { A-4 ve Cae- sar, "morituri te salutant." }
>> >>
>>
>
> Hmmm...  Somehow this works with your simple example, but not with
> slightly more complex ones:
>
> \score {
>   \new Staff <<
> \new Voice { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." }
> \lyrics { A-4 ve Cae- sar, "morituri te salutant." }
>   >>
> }
>
> continues the staff after the final "|." and places "morituri te
> salutant" under it.  And:
>
> \score {
>   \new Staff <<
> \new Voice = A { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." }
> \new Lyrics \lyricsto A { A-4 ve Cae- sar, "morituri te salutant." }
>   >>
> }
>
> simply removes the "morituri te salutant."

A mixture would be

\score {
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice = A { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." \stopStaff }
\lyrics \with { associatedVoice = "A" }
{ A-4 ve Cae- sar, \unset associatedVoice "morituri te salutant." }
  >>
}

The problem with \lyricsto is that it also tells LilyPond to pick off
the rhythm from the associated Voice, and then LilyPond lets the lyrics
die together with the associated Voice.

>> Maybe it would make sense if "associated" lyrics would just continue
>> with the normal durations when losing their associated Voice rather
>> than committing suicide.
>>
>
> Indeed.

See above...

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Files from Lilypond workshop @ LAC 2013

[luis jure]

on 2013-05-21 at 13:18 David Kastrup wrote:

> It would seem that you associate the term "pitch" with physical
> frequency.

no, it's not me, it's the standard meaning of the term as used in music
theory, psychoacoustics, musical acoustics, music cognition, and all the
disciplines i know that deal with music and/or the perception of sound. it
also seems to be the standard meaning in dictionaries and encyclopedias.

BTW, its cleat that pitch is NOT physical frequency, but a perceptual
sensation (dependent mainly on the fundamental frequency of an acoustic
signal).


> That is not how LilyPond uses the term

fair enough, although honestly i don't see how it could be convenient to
use an established term with a definite meaning to denote something else.
imagine that, like florian, you're introducing lilypond to people with
solid background in music theory (composers, musicologists, whatever). i
can imagine that using the term "pitch" to mean something other than pitch
is going to cause confusion.

> A "note" is more than a pitch: it has duration, articulations, etc.

fair enough, the term "note" has a less definite meaning, and can denote
different things depending on the use. i'd rather not comment on the
possible meanings of the term in the english language, and how it's
similar or different form the german "Note" or "Ton" or the spanish "nota".

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Re: Positioning volta bracket

[Nick Payne]

On 21/05/13 21:26, Gregory Heytings wrote:





Is there a way to position (or to adjust the position of) the volta
brackets manually?  With the following example:

\relative c'' {
  \repeat volta 3 { d4 d d d }
  \alternative { { c4 d e f } { e4 f g a } }
}

the volta brackets are raised, because of the final "a" note, but it
could have fit under the volta bracket at the "normal" position,
since it does not clash with the "3." indication.

I tried

\layout { \context { \Staff \override VoltaBracketSpanner #'Y-offset
= #N } }

with various values for N, without success.


Using what version of LilyPond?  With 2.17.12 I see something like the
following (which looks reasonable):



Still 2.14.2...



With 2.16, this looks less pretty.



But I see that 2.16.2 would not help...

By the way, the question was: how is it possible to adjust the position
by hand (independently of the default position)?


You can use extra-offset. eg:

\once \override Score.VoltaBracket #'extra-offset = #'(0 . -1.5)

will lower the following bracket by 1.5 staff units.


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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[Gregory Heytings]

So the lyrics are supposed to be aligned as a block first which is then 
centered on the note.




Exactly.



I think that the current machinery is rather working by aligning 
everything independently to the note in question.




Indeed.



That would place the prealignment of the lyrics into the "seriously 
tricky" realm.  So it is quite possible that you'll not get any "off the 
cuff" elegant solution for this.


A good solution is also constrained by the alignment only being possible 
when the lyrics have been turned into stencils, and that happens 
depending on the text font defaults at the time of typesetting.


A tedious solution is likely doable where you basically specify 
something like


\syllable #1 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }
in the first stanza,
\syllable #2 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }

in the second stanza and so on: then each stanza would typeset the whole 
column, align it, and pick out the right row.




That's an interesting idea.  A bit tedious as you write, but better than 
nothing however.  Am I right that the \syllable primitive is not part of 
LilyPond, and that this is just an idea of yours?


Best,

Gregory

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Re: Lyric after staff?

[Gregory Heytings]

What is the best way to put lyrics past the end of a staff, like this:

===|.
A B C D   E F

The words "A B C D" are placed with \lyricsto, but how is it possible 
to put words at positions "E F"?  When written in the lyrics, they are 
simply ignored, even if the staff is not large enough to fill the 
line-width.




It's probably simplest to use Lyrics with manual durations for such 
things:


<<
 \new Staff { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." }
 \lyrics { A-4 ve Cae- sar, "morituri te salutant." }
>>



Hmmm...  Somehow this works with your simple example, but not with 
slightly more complex ones:


\score {
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." }
\lyrics { A-4 ve Cae- sar, "morituri te salutant." }
  >>
}

continues the staff after the final "|." and places "morituri te salutant" 
under it.  And:


\score {
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice = A { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto A { A-4 ve Cae- sar, "morituri te salutant." }
  >>
}

simply removes the "morituri te salutant."



Maybe it would make sense if "associated" lyrics would just continue 
with the normal durations when losing their associated Voice rather than 
committing suicide.




Indeed.

Gregory

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Re: Positioning volta bracket

[Gregory Heytings]

Is there a way to position (or to adjust the position of) the volta 
brackets manually?  With the following example:


\relative c'' {
  \repeat volta 3 { d4 d d d }
  \alternative { { c4 d e f } { e4 f g a } }
}

the volta brackets are raised, because of the final "a" note, but it 
could have fit under the volta bracket at the "normal" position, since 
it does not clash with the "3." indication.


I tried

\layout { \context { \Staff \override VoltaBracketSpanner #'Y-offset = #N } }

with various values for N, without success.


Using what version of LilyPond?  With 2.17.12 I see something like the 
following (which looks reasonable):




Still 2.14.2...



With 2.16, this looks less pretty.



But I see that 2.16.2 would not help...

By the way, the question was: how is it possible to adjust the position by 
hand (independently of the default position)?


Gregory

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Re: Files from Lilypond workshop @ LAC 2013

[David Kastrup]

luis jure  writes:

> on 2013-05-21 at 07:02 Helge Kruse wrote:
>
>> At page 13 we read that letters are notes. At page 20 letters migrate to
>> pitches. I think the latter is correct.
>
> i disagree. letters are notes, not pitches. in lilypond, letter c is note
> C (do, ut, whatever), and letters cis are note C sharp. the pitch depends
> on the octave (which in lilypond depends on the context) and eventually
> also on the transposition. also, if you play middle C on a piano, it's the
> same pitch as B sharp or D double flat, but they are different notes.
>
> so the first slide (letters are notes) is correct, in my opinion, and the
> second (letters are pitches) is wrong.

It would seem that you associate the term "pitch" with physical
frequency.  That is not how LilyPond uses the term (though indeed the
respective "music glossary" entry leaves something to be desired
regarding clearing that up).

http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/notation/pitches>

A "note" is more than a pitch: it has duration, articulations, etc.
Indeed, if I ask the Scheme sandbox:

$ lilypond scheme-sandbox
GNU LilyPond 2.17.12
Processing `/usr/local/share/lilypond/2.17.12/ly/scheme-sandbox.ly'
Parsing...
guile> #{ c #}
#
guile> #{ c4 #}
#) (pitch . #) 
(origin . #:2:2>))((display-methods #) (name . NoteEvent) (iterator-ctor . #) (types general-music event note-event 
rhythmic-event melodic-event)) >

guile> 

It also considers "c" just a pitch (composed from octave, notename and
alteration), while "c4" is a complete note.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Files from Lilypond workshop @ LAC 2013

[luis jure]

on 2013-05-21 at 07:02 Helge Kruse wrote:

> At page 13 we read that letters are notes. At page 20 letters migrate to
> pitches. I think the latter is correct.

i disagree. letters are notes, not pitches. in lilypond, letter c is note
C (do, ut, whatever), and letters cis are note C sharp. the pitch depends
on the octave (which in lilypond depends on the context) and eventually
also on the transposition. also, if you play middle C on a piano, it's the
same pitch as B sharp or D double flat, but they are different notes.

so the first slide (letters are notes) is correct, in my opinion, and the
second (letters are pitches) is wrong.

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Re: Lyric after staff?

[David Kastrup]

Gregory Heytings  writes:

> Hi list,
>
> What is the best way to put lyrics past the end of a staff, like this:
>
> ===|.
> A B C D   E F
>
> The words "A B C D" are placed with \lyricsto, but how is it possible
> to put words at positions "E F"?  When written in the lyrics, they are
> simply ignored, even if the staff is not large enough to fill the
> line-width.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Gregory

It's probably simplest to use Lyrics with manual durations for such
things:

<<
  \new Staff { c' d' e' d' \bar "|." }
  \lyrics { A-4 ve Cae- sar, "morituri te salutant." }
>>

Maybe it would make sense if "associated" lyrics would just continue
with the normal durations when losing their associated Voice rather than
committing suicide.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Positioning volta bracket

[David Kastrup]

Gregory Heytings  writes:

> Hi list,
>
> Is there a way to position (or to adjust the position of) the volta
> brackets manually?  With the following example:
>
> \relative c'' {
>   \repeat volta 3 { d4 d d d }
>   \alternative { { c4 d e f } { e4 f g a } }
> }
>
> the volta brackets are raised, because of the final "a" note, but it
> could have fit under the volta bracket at the "normal" position, since
> it does not clash with the "3." indication.
>
> I tried
>
> \layout { \context { \Staff \override VoltaBracketSpanner #'Y-offset = #N } }
>
> with various values for N, without success.

Using what version of LilyPond?  With 2.17.12 I see something like the
following (which looks reasonable):

<>
With 2.16, this looks less pretty.

-- 
David Kastrup
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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[David Kastrup]

Gregory Heytings  writes:

>>
>>> Indeed, many thanks, I did not expect that the solution would be so
>>> trivial.  I tried with various values of self-alignment-X, but not
>>> with -1...
>>
>> -1 is the same as LEFT
>
> Okay, I did not read the manual carefully enough (again).

That was just intended to provide some missing information.  Frankly, I
wouldn't know where to look for it.

>>> The solution is not perfect, however.  I was more expecting a
>>> solution where the note is centered above the lyrics, and the
>>> lyrics aligned left; in this case the lyrics are indeed left
>>> aligned, but the note is also left aligned...
>>
>> What should the lyrics be left-aligned to then if not to the note?
>>
>
> To each other.  This would give something like:
>
>   o
> Cccc
> C
> Cc
> Ccc
> c
>
> with the note on the first line, and the lyrics on the five next
> lines. The lyrics are all left-aligned, and the note is centered on
> the longest lyric.

So the lyrics are supposed to be aligned as a block first which is then
centered on the note.  I think that the current machinery is rather
working by aligning everything independently to the note in question.

That would place the prealignment of the lyrics into the "seriously
tricky" realm.  So it is quite possible that you'll not get any "off the
cuff" elegant solution for this.

A good solution is also constrained by the alignment only being possible
when the lyrics have been turned into stencils, and that happens
depending on the text font defaults at the time of typesetting.

A tedious solution is likely doable where you basically specify
something like

\syllable #1 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }
in the first stanza,
\syllable #2 { Cccc C Cc Ccc c }
in the second stanza and so on: then each stanza would typeset the whole
column, align it, and pick out the right row.

I hve my doubt you can do much better than that with reasonable effort.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Lyric after staff?

[Gregory Heytings]

Hi list,

What is the best way to put lyrics past the end of a staff, like this:

===|.
A B C D   E F

The words "A B C D" are placed with \lyricsto, but how is it possible to 
put words at positions "E F"?  When written in the lyrics, they are simply 
ignored, even if the staff is not large enough to fill the line-width.


Many thanks,

Gregory

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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[Gregory Heytings]

Indeed, many thanks, I did not expect that the solution would be so 
trivial.  I tried with various values of self-alignment-X, but not with 
-1...


-1 is the same as LEFT



Okay, I did not read the manual carefully enough (again).  I know and see 
that you put much effort in it, but please understand that lambda users do 
not always find their way through it.




The solution is not perfect, however.  I was more expecting a solution 
where the note is centered above the lyrics, and the lyrics aligned 
left; in this case the lyrics are indeed left aligned, but the note is 
also left aligned...


What should the lyrics be left-aligned to then if not to the note?



To each other.  This would give something like:

  o
Cccc
C
Cc
Ccc
c

with the note on the first line, and the lyrics on the five next lines. 
The lyrics are all left-aligned, and the note is centered on the longest 
lyric.


Gregory

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Positioning volta bracket

[Gregory Heytings]

Hi list,

Is there a way to position (or to adjust the position of) the volta 
brackets manually?  With the following example:


\relative c'' {
  \repeat volta 3 { d4 d d d }
  \alternative { { c4 d e f } { e4 f g a } }
}

the volta brackets are raised, because of the final "a" note, but it could 
have fit under the volta bracket at the "normal" position, since it does 
not clash with the "3." indication.


I tried

\layout { \context { \Staff \override VoltaBracketSpanner #'Y-offset = #N } }

with various values for N, without success.

Thanks,

Gregory

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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[David Kastrup]

Gregory Heytings  writes:

>> l=\once \override LyricText #'self-alignment-X = #-1
>>
>> \score {
>>  \new Staff <<
>>\new Voice = A { \relative c' { c d e f } }
>>\new Lyrics \lyricsto A { \l Ccc ddd eee fff }
>>\new Lyrics \lyricsto A { \l Cc dd ee ff }
>>\new Lyrics \lyricsto A { \l C d e f }
>>  >>
>> }
>>
>> Avoids the need for typing much, and seems to left-align accurately
>> according to my output.
>>
>
> Indeed, many thanks, I did not expect that the solution would be so
> trivial.  I tried with various values of self-alignment-X, but not
> with -1...

-1 is the same as LEFT

> The solution is not perfect, however.  I was more expecting a solution
> where the note is centered above the lyrics, and the lyrics aligned
> left; in this case the lyrics are indeed left aligned, but the note is
> also left aligned...

What should the lyrics be left-aligned to then if not to the note?

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Left align first word of lyrics

[Gregory Heytings]

Is it possible to automatically left align the first word of multiple 
line lyrics ?  By default the lyrics are all centered under the note, 
which is okay in most situations, but perhaps not optimal for the first 
word of a staff.  For example, the words "Ccc", "Cc" and "C" are 
centered under the c note with the following code:


\score {
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice = A { \relative c' { c d e f } }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto A { Ccc ddd eee fff }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto A { Cc dd ee ff }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto A { C d e f }
  >>
}

I know that it is possible to move a particular word by hand with 
"\once \override LyricText #'self-alignment-X = #...".  This solution 
is however not only painful to type in, but its result is also most 
often only approximately correct.




l=\once \override LyricText #'self-alignment-X = #-1

\score {
 \new Staff <<
   \new Voice = A { \relative c' { c d e f } }
   \new Lyrics \lyricsto A { \l Ccc ddd eee fff }
   \new Lyrics \lyricsto A { \l Cc dd ee ff }
   \new Lyrics \lyricsto A { \l C d e f }
 >>
}

Avoids the need for typing much, and seems to left-align accurately 
according to my output.




Indeed, many thanks, I did not expect that the solution would be so 
trivial.  I tried with various values of self-alignment-X, but not with 
-1...  The solution is not perfect, however.  I was more expecting a 
solution where the note is centered above the lyrics, and the lyrics 
aligned left; in this case the lyrics are indeed left aligned, but the 
note is also left aligned...


Best,

Gregory

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Re: merging files

[David Kastrup]

"Mark Stephen Mrotek"  writes:

> Mr. Kastrup:
>
> It was not my intention to impinge upon your time or expertise and put you
> through a hard time pondering my request. From my reading of posts in the
> group I comprehend that you are involved in matters much more advanced and
> arcane than I could ever comprehend. Perhaps you have forgotten that dim
> past when you, as a beginner, were asking your mentors questions that may
> have sounded rudimentary and had obvious answers.
>
> My expectations of the group have been met consistently and repeatedly by
> the several members who have patiently taken the time to provide answers to
> my inquiries. Your response, sir, is pompous, bloated, and quite frankly,
> snarky.

If you take a look at recent changes in our beginners' documentation:

git shortlog -n -s  --since "1 year ago" -- Documentation/learning
12  David Kastrup
 9  Trevor Daniels
 3  Keith OHara
 2  John Mandereau
 2  Phil Holmes
 1  James Lowe
 1  Janek Warchoł

you'll see that for better or worse, beginners are not off my chart.
I am looking forward to your detailed reviews and proposals of
documentation changes to make them less pompous, bloated and snarky.

Here is a link to pending documentation issues in our tracker:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list?can=2&q=Type%3DDocumentation>
but of course feel free to tackle issues that others have overlooked.

-- 
David Kastrup


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