Re: Bar lines in 2.19.0

2013-11-13 Thread David Kastrup
Mike Solomon m...@mikesolomon.org writes:

 Hey all,

 On 2.19.0, when I do:

 \relative c' {
 f1 \bar |
 f1 \bar .
 g1 \bar ||
 a1 \bar .|
 b1 \bar .|.
 c1 \bar |.|
 d1 \bar |.
 e1 \bar |:
 f1 \bar :|”
 }

 I get the attached result, which leaves out several bar lines that
 should normally be printing.

 Any ideas what’s going on?

Yes.  And so would convert-ly.  I am not proud that I have not managed
to get the original authors into writing support for backward-compatible
aliases (a resource problem mostly, if I understood correctly), nor did
I manage to do so myself (a resource problem mostly).

-- 
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Re: Bar lines in 2.19.0

2013-11-13 Thread Marc Hohl

Am 13.11.2013 10:30, schrieb Mike Solomon:

Hey all,

On 2.19.0, when I do:

\relative c' {
f1 \bar |
f1 \bar .
g1 \bar ||
a1 \bar .|
b1 \bar .|.
c1 \bar |.|
d1 \bar |.
e1 \bar |:
f1 \bar :|”
}

I get the attached result, which leaves out several bar lines that should 
normally be printing.

Any ideas what’s going on?


That's due to the 'new' bar line interface I developed during and 
shortly after the Waltrop meeting 2012 – convert-ly is your friend,

I think ;-)

Marc


Cheers,
MS







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Re: lilypond 2.16.2 failing to install on ubuntu 12.10

2013-11-13 Thread SoundsFromSound
+1 for Frescobaldi. It should be in your repo, though I'm not sure it's the
most recent version. 

Welcome to the community!

Ben

Link -- http://frescobaldi.org/


Colin Campbell-8 wrote
 On 11/12/2013 07:11 PM, JordanB. wrote:
 I would appreciate any help in this matter:

 I was able to download lilypond, and ran sh lilypond-2.16.2-OS-TYPE.sh in
 the shell. The bin directory was created, and and the 12 shell script
 files
 (lilypond, lilypond-wrapper, etc.). That's it, however. How do I run
 lilypond from this point? Am I missing something obvious? I'm kind of a
 newbie to linux, so I wouldn't be surprised if I was.
 Thanks!

 
 On Linux, you can run lilypond from a terminal (shell). To verify that 
 lilypond was installed, you just enter lilypond -v without the quotes. 
 The result should be confirmation that the program was findable by 
 linux. You can then compile your lilypond source files by entering, e.g. 
 lilypond foo.ly, which would process a lilypond file named foo and 
 produce a .PDF of the result. Much more comfortable to those coming from 
 more gui-centric systems, would be to install a package such as 
 Frescobaldi (my lilypond editor of choice) or one of the others 
 mentioned on our website, under Easier Editing. These editors can call 
 lilypond for you, without you needing a terminal shell. The rest of the 
 website, particularly the Learning Manual, will greatly repay the time 
 spent in reviewing and working through examples, as well
 
 Finally, welcome to the LilyPond community! When all else fails, feel 
 free to come back here with the smallest example which shows a problem, 
 and we'll see what we can do with it.
 
 Cheers,
 Colin
 -- 
 A good juggler can always find work.
 - attributed to L. Pacioli (1445 - 1517)
 
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Re: export to musescore

2013-11-13 Thread Peter Bjuhr


On 11/13/2013 12:00 PM, Peter Bjuhr wrote:


On 11/12/2013 09:40 AM, Urs Liska wrote:


the way to go would be MusicXML export.
While this wish has popped up every now and then for years, Peter 
Bjuhr has just started to give it an actual try. We don't know how 
far this will get, but it will at least be a start for this very 
important improvement.
When we've sorted out the options and have something like a roadmap 
we'll post about it again.


I'd like to add that the actual development is partly taking place in 
the development version of Frescobaldi, perhaps someone has seen the 
menu element there and wondered. It's still very basic and limited so 
I would definitely hesitate to promote any real use of it besides for 
testing purposes.





Maybe I should also clarify that the roadmap Urs is writing about is for 
a LilyPond export and not just for Frescobaldi users. We hope to get 
back with more info about this soon...


Best
Peter


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Re: So, slashed beamed grace notes...

2013-11-13 Thread Janek Warchoł
2013/11/13 David Nalesnik david.nales...@gmail.com:
 I've worked on this a bit more, and come up with the attached file.  This
 version takes the beam angle into consideration, so the wings of the slash
 are handled better.

Looks very nice, thanks a lot!

Janek

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Re: Bar numbers position

2013-11-13 Thread Gilberto Agostinho
Keith OHara wrote
 In the file scm/define-grobs.scm that is part of the distributed LilyPond, 
 there is a comment just before the setting that determines where the 
 bar number should go 
 ;; want the bar number before the clef at line start. 
 (break-align-symbols . (left-edge staff-bar)) 
 indicating that some thought went into the choice,
 which might indicate that the choice was not obvious.

Thanks for sharing this information; as you say, it indeed shows that there
was some thought behind this decision.


Keith OHara wrote
 It is the (unavoidably?) complicated method for setting objects on things
 that might be line-breaks.  
   \override Score.BarNumber #'break-align-symbols = 
 #'(left-edge)  % or maybe you prefer #'(staff-bar clef)
   \override Score.BarNumber #'self-alignment-X = #LEFT
   \override Score.Clef #'break-align-anchor-alignment = #LEFT

Well, I don't think this is particularly complicated. Maybe it would be
interesting to add some example to the snippet repository, which might be
useful to other users who might be interested on this. This is how I usually
write my bar numbers:

bar_numbers_(italic,_small,_to_the_right).ly
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n153853/bar_numbers_%28italic%2C_small%2C_to_the_right%29.ly
  

And I will add this code to the repository later.

Thanks for your reply and take care,
Gilberto



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Re: Bar lines in 2.19.0

2013-11-13 Thread SoundsFromSound
Where is LilyPond version 2.19? I didn't think 2.18 was even released yet.




Mike Solomon wrote
 Hey all,
 
 On 2.19.0, when I do:
 
 \relative c' {
 f1 \bar |
 f1 \bar .
 g1 \bar ||
 a1 \bar .|
 b1 \bar .|.
 c1 \bar |.|
 d1 \bar |.
 e1 \bar |:
 f1 \bar :|”
 }
 
 I get the attached result, which leaves out several bar lines that should
 normally be printing.
 
 Any ideas what’s going on?
 
 Cheers,
 MS
 
 
 
 
 
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 https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
 
 
 PastedGraphic-1.pdf (28K)
 lt;http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/attachment/153841/0/PastedGraphic-1.pdfgt;





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Re: Bar lines in 2.19.0

2013-11-13 Thread Mike Solomon

On Nov 13, 2013, at 3:45 PM, SoundsFromSound soundsfromso...@gmail.com wrote:

 Where is LilyPond version 2.19? I didn't think 2.18 was even released yet.
 
 

That’s where current master is on the git branch.

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Re: string-number scheme

2013-11-13 Thread David Kastrup
Stjepan Horvat zvanste...@gmail.com writes:

 Hi guys..
 I would want to make a simple function that would convert my string to
 number..wha?

 i have a a variable inside header that is called bpm. inside bpm is my
 tempo but in string.

Why?

 for example:

 \header {
   bpm = 123
 }

 {
 \tempo 4 = \bpm
 c'4
 }

 or in midi block

 \midi { \tempo 4 = \bpm }

 i had an idea of converting string to number using string-number..
 #(define bpm 123)
 #(define bpmInt (string-number bpm)

Missing closing paren, it would seem.

 but it didnt work nor

 bpmInt =
 #(define-music-function
 (parser location bpm
 (string?)
 (string-number bpm)))

The body of define-music-function needs to return music, so you probably
would want define-scheme-function instead.

 any ideas.?

I have no idea why you don't just write

bpm = 123

and that's that.  Why go through a string in the first place?

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Re: string-number scheme

2013-11-13 Thread Stjepan Horvat
ok..

i would want to insert the tempo one time..inside the header block..and
that it would apply to other tempo variables..

\header {
bpm = 123
}

\relative c' {
  \tempo = \bpm %the header bpm variable
 c'4
}

till now i didnt create any scheme function successfully..:P


On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:11 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote:

 Stjepan Horvat zvanste...@gmail.com writes:

  header won't display numbers..i'm using lastest development version..

 [unedited useless fullquote below deleted]

 Please try harder to explain the problem, preferably with a minimal
 example, or at the very least responding to the individual suggestions
 with the details of why they don't work for you.

 When someone goes to the pain of writing up an elaborate answer with
 details for each cited problem, the above one-line reply does not
 suggest you are taking this seriously.

 --
 David Kastrup




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Re: string-number scheme

2013-11-13 Thread David Kastrup
Stjepan Horvat zvanste...@gmail.com writes:

 ok..

 i would want to insert the tempo one time..inside the header block..and
 that it would apply to other tempo variables..

 \header {
 bpm = 123
 }

 \relative c' {
   \tempo = \bpm %the header bpm variable
  c'4
 }

First: it is impossible to guess what you want here since \tempo = 123
would not be a valid command, and neither would be \tempo = 123.

Second: why do you have bpm defined inside of \header?  Header variables
are not visible in the score.

I just tried
bpm = 123

\relative c' {
  \tempo 4 = \bpm %the header bpm variable
 c'4
}

and found out that variables are not permitted in this place.  Which is
probably an oversight rather than anything intentional.  Feel free to
file a bug report.  It might be quite simpler, however, just to write

bpm = \tempo 4 = 123

\relative c' {
 \bpm
 c'4
}

And can you _please_ _please_ _please_ stop appending the whole thing
you are replying to at the bottom of your mails?

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Re: string-number scheme

2013-11-13 Thread David Kastrup
Stjepan Horvat zvanste...@gmail.com writes:

 So..any idea how i could achive it..?! I wanted to use my little knowlidge
 to write a simple scheme function that could achive it..with no succsess..

You could start by explaining what is wrong with the solution at the
bottom of
URL:http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-11/msg00456.html.

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Re: string-number scheme

2013-11-13 Thread Stjepan Horvat
Try putting bpm = \tempo 4 = 123 in the header..


On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 4:36 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote:

 Stjepan Horvat zvanste...@gmail.com writes:

  So..any idea how i could achive it..?! I wanted to use my little
 knowlidge
  to write a simple scheme function that could achive it..with no
 succsess..

 You could start by explaining what is wrong with the solution at the
 bottom of
 URL:http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-11/msg00456.html
 .

 --
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Re: string-number scheme

2013-11-13 Thread Janek Warchoł
2013/11/13 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org:
 Stjepan Horvat zvanste...@gmail.com writes:

 So..any idea how i could achive it..?! I wanted to use my little knowlidge
 to write a simple scheme function that could achive it..with no succsess..

 You could start by explaining what is wrong with the solution at the
 bottom of
 URL:http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-11/msg00456.html.

I think i understand what this is about.

Stjepan would like to have the tempo value used both in header as well
as in actual tempo definition.  It is possible to define a variable
and use it in the header:

trololo = 123

\header {
  title = #(string-append
bang! 
(number-string trololo)
 foobars in a bottle)
}

The problem is, as David already noticed, that a variable cannot be
used in \tempo command:

{
  % this crashes:
  \tempo 4 = \trololo
  c'
}

Stjepan, is this what you mean?

Janek

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Re: string-number scheme

2013-11-13 Thread Janek Warchoł
2013/11/13 Stjepan Horvat zvanste...@gmail.com:
 Yes..this is exactly what i mean..

Good!
But please be careful about quoting original messages.  Don't let
gmail do whatever it's doing by default, because it's not the right
thing.

Janek

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Re: string-number scheme

2013-11-13 Thread Stjepan Horvat
Ok..and Thank You..


On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.comwrote:

 So, to answer David's question:

 2013/11/13 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org:
  You could start by explaining what is wrong with the solution at the
  bottom of
  URL:
 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-11/msg00456.html.

 This is not doing what Stjepan wants because he cannot use \bpm as a
 value for a header field.

 See this bug:
 http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3658
 I believe that to solve Stjepan's problem we'd have to solve this bug.

 best,
 Janek

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RE: Horizontal alignment of MetronomeMarks

2013-11-13 Thread Daniel Rosen
 -Original Message-
 From: Keith OHara [mailto:k-ohara5...@oco.net]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:15 AM
 To: Kieren MacMillan; Daniel Rosen
 Cc: Lilypond-User Mailing List
 Subject: Re: Horizontal alignment of MetronomeMarks
 
 Now that I am looking for it, I do notice that tempo marks seem to align on
 the first note when there is one, otherwise the barline.
 
 LilyPond is set up to do that (using the messy code that I was recently
 complaining about) by setting the two priority-lists for placement of the
 tempo marks as follows:
\override Score.MetronomeMark #'break-align-symbols =
  #'(time-signature staff-bar)
\override Score.MetronomeMark #'non-break-align-symbols =
  #'(note-column-interface multi-measure-rest-interface paper-column-
 interface) Maybe that should be the default.

I think it absolutely should.

DR
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notation reference query

2013-11-13 Thread Hayden Smith
Hi folks,

I'm a new user making a foray into Lilypond and I am in the process of scouring 
the learning manual/notation reference to become acquainted with the 
application (v2.17.95).

I had a small query in regards to the appendices detailing articulation and 
ornamentation. I was looking at the code snippets that supposedly list all 
available articulations, but the snippet simply refers to script-chart.ly. As 
I am a totally blind musician, I cannot make inference based on the image 
provided in the notation reference itself and wondered where script-chart.ly 
might be located which would contain a complete list of articulations.

any assistance someone can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Hayden
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Re: notation reference query

2013-11-13 Thread Carl Peterson
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 1:18 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote:

 Hayden Smith haydenpi...@gmail.com writes:

  I cannot make inference based on the image provided in the notation
  reference itself and wondered where script-chart.ly might be located
  which would contain a complete list of articulations.

 In the LilyPond directory hierarchy, it is in
 Documentation/included/script-chart.ly

 No idea whether it will be helpful for you, but I'm not sure what would
 be helpful.

 --
 David Kastrup


Given that this is the second time in recent memory that this specific
issue has come up, probably what would be helpful is if the reference
tables were not presented as monolithic output images but as text-based
tables with individual images for each item being referenced. I am not
familiar enough with the documentation side of development to know how easy
this would be to implement.

Carl
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Re: notation reference query

2013-11-13 Thread Phil Holmes
This is no help, but see 
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=1189


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Cluster function

2013-11-13 Thread Mark Knoop
Has anyone had success making clusters such as in the attached image?
This is not possible with the builtin \makeClusters function which
removes stems, beams, accidentals, etc. 

Ideally code something like

cis' ais''8. \cluster c' ais''8. 

to produce this example. 

If not, any ideas as to where to start with such a function? I suppose
I just need to get the positions of the two noteheads and draw a thick
line in between.

Many thanks,

Mark

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Re: Cluster function

2013-11-13 Thread Peter Bjuhr


On 11/13/2013 08:43 PM, Mark Knoop wrote:

Has anyone had success making clusters such as in the attached image?
This is not possible with the builtin \makeClusters function which
removes stems, beams, accidentals, etc.

Ideally code something like

cis' ais''8. \cluster c' ais''8.

to produce this example.

If not, any ideas as to where to start with such a function? I suppose
I just need to get the positions of the two noteheads and draw a thick
line in between.


Have you seen this?
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2008-10/msg00555.html

Best
Peter
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Re: Cluster function

2013-11-13 Thread David Kastrup
Mark Knoop m...@opus11.net writes:

 Has anyone had success making clusters such as in the attached image?
 This is not possible with the builtin \makeClusters function which
 removes stems, beams, accidentals, etc. 

 Ideally code something like

 cis' ais''8. \cluster c' ais''8. 

 to produce this example. 

 If not, any ideas as to where to start with such a function? I suppose
 I just need to get the positions of the two noteheads and draw a thick
 line in between.

Well, I would have tried

\new Staff {
  \accidentalStyle forget
  cis' ais'8.  cis' ais'8. \makeClusters c' ais'8. 
}

but the result still leaves something to be desired...

-- 
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Blues/jazz/rubato tempo markings in printed scores

2013-11-13 Thread Joel C. Salomon
Searching the archives, I found the thread “jazz quantization of
eighths for MIDI”
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.devel/17489, linking
to http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=687, all
relating to adjusting MIDI output.

Is there a way to *print* a tempo marking for such a rhythm, though?
One score I’ve seen uses a tempo marking that looks like this:

⌐3¬
Blues feel (♫ = ♩ ♪)

I was thinking to adapt the technique from
http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=574, but the \note command seems
to support neither beamed notes nor tuplets.  Is there something in
the manual that will make the answer obvious once I understand it, or
is this something difficult to achieve?

—Joel

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Re: Blues/jazz/rubato tempo markings in printed scores

2013-11-13 Thread Nathan
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Joel C. Salomon joelcsalo...@gmail.comwrote:

 Searching the archives, I found the thread “jazz quantization of
 eighths for MIDI”
 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.devel/17489, linking
 to http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=687, all
 relating to adjusting MIDI output.

 Is there a way to *print* a tempo marking for such a rhythm, though?
 One score I’ve seen uses a tempo marking that looks like this:

 ⌐3¬
 Blues feel (♫ = ♩ ♪)

 I was thinking to adapt the technique from
 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=574, but the \note command seems
 to support neither beamed notes nor tuplets.  Is there something in
 the manual that will make the answer obvious once I understand it, or
 is this something difficult to achieve?


This snippet may help you:

http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=204

Regards,
Nathan
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Re: Blues/jazz/rubato tempo markings in printed scores

2013-11-13 Thread Joel C. Salomon
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Nathan when.possi...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Joel C. Salomon joelcsalo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 ⌐3¬
 Blues feel (♫ = ♩ ♪)

 This snippet may help you:

 http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=204

Thank you; that's what I was looking for.

—Joel

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Re: fermata and phrasing slurs

2013-11-13 Thread Eluze
Gagi Petrovic wrote
 Dear group, as can be seen in the added example, something seems off. Is
 this a known issue?

please be specific about what you feel is wrong!

 Additionally, does anyone have any pointers how to work around this? In
 other words: how can i still force the TextScript to be under the longer
 versions of fermata?

you can get full control over the vertical positioning of grobs (and
spanners) by specifying the outside-staff-priority of each object, eg:

\version 2.17.95
mus={ c2 ^( ^\fermata ^text c) }
{
  \override Slur.outside-staff-priority=#999
  \once {
  \override Script.outside-staff-priority=0
  \override TextScript.outside-staff-priority=1
} \mus
  \once {
  \override Script.outside-staff-priority=1
  \override TextScript.outside-staff-priority=0
} \mus
}

maybe you'll want to \shape the slur, too

hth
Eluze



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Re: fermata and phrasing slurs

2013-11-13 Thread Gagi Petrovic
Hi Eluze, thank you. And i'm sorry, i thought it was clear in the example.
To be more specific:

When using \longfermata and \verylongfermata the overrides i used, get
ignored. The TextScript is placed above the Script, instead of the other
way around, like it does with \fermata. (this can be seen in the screenshot)

I tried your method (see below), but it still doesn't work correctly. Now
the text is nicely placed under all the fermata, but i don't understand why
the slur isn't placed above them. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

All the best, Gagi

\version2.16.1

\relative c''{

  \override Slur#' outside-staff-priority = 999
  \override Script#' outside-staff-priority = 1
  \override TextScript#' outside-staff-priority = 0
  \phrasingSlurUp

  d2^test^\fermata\(  b4 c\)

  d2^test^\longfermata\(  b4 c\)
  d2^test^\verylongfermata\(  b4 c\)

}




On 13 November 2013 22:52, Eluze elu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Gagi Petrovic wrote
  Dear group, as can be seen in the added example, something seems off. Is
  this a known issue?

 please be specific about what you feel is wrong!

  Additionally, does anyone have any pointers how to work around this? In
  other words: how can i still force the TextScript to be under the longer
  versions of fermata?

 you can get full control over the vertical positioning of grobs (and
 spanners) by specifying the outside-staff-priority of each object, eg:

 \version 2.17.95
 mus={ c2 ^( ^\fermata ^text c) }
 {
   \override Slur.outside-staff-priority=#999
   \once {
   \override Script.outside-staff-priority=0
   \override TextScript.outside-staff-priority=1
 } \mus
   \once {
   \override Script.outside-staff-priority=1
   \override TextScript.outside-staff-priority=0
 } \mus
 }

 maybe you'll want to \shape the slur, too

 hth
 Eluze



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Re: fermata and phrasing slurs

2013-11-13 Thread Eluze
Gagi Petrovic wrote
 I tried your method (see below), but it still doesn't work correctly. Now
 the text is nicely placed under all the fermata, but i don't understand
 why
 the slur isn't placed above them. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

ugh - sorry i didn't explicitly mention I used a simple slur and not a
phrasing slur - does it work like that?!

Eluze



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Gmail and quotes

2013-11-13 Thread James Harkins
From David K.:

 Gmail's default setting is _not_ to secretly append all of an old
posting to your new mail.

Actually, the default behavior in gmail's web interface is very close to
appending the quote secretly. It used to show the quote, but now reply
gives you an almost completely empty frame for the message body, with a
small ... icon at the bottom left. The user has to remember to click on
this button in order to edit the quoted text.

This interface improvement also effectively enforces top-posting: it
takes extra effort to post replies in the middle of quotes (like a
conversation) and most people don't care. For that matter, most people
don't even know what top-posting is... they just do it because gmail,
Outlook etc put the cursor at the top for them and Microsoft knows better
than I do (rolling eyes heavenward).

Unfortunately, this will only get worse. The trend is to make computers
seem easier to use, not by preventing users from making mistakes, but by
hiding mistakes from users.

hjh
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Re: LilyPond in pandoc (md/rst)?

2013-11-13 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm

Am 2013-11-13 um 12:50 schrieb Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com:

 Il 13/nov/2013 06:42 Henning Hraban Ramm lilypon...@fiee.net ha scritto:
  do you know of any existing extension for pandoc (or multimarkdown) to 
  integrate LilyPond into markdown (or restructured text)?
  A quick googling didn’t show anything promising.
 
 There is a sphinx plugin for lilypond. You can find it on bitbucket.
 Sphinx uses restructured text

Thank you for the hint, it’s at https://bitbucket.org/birkenfeld/sphinx-contrib
but …

lilypond: an extension inserting music scripts from Lilypond in PNG format.“

… it only inserts bitmaps, even if sphinx can also create PDF via LaTeX. I was 
aiming for „usable“ PDF output - sorry, didn’t make clear.

It was just a thought anyway; I guess I’ll stay with my ConTeXt-LilyPond 
workflow. Or I manage to combine ConTeXt’s markdown and LilyPond processing 
somehow. (Since it’s not a priority for me, it’ll probably never happen.)



Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
http://www.fiee.net
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)





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Re: Gmail and quotes

2013-11-13 Thread Helge Kruse
 This interface improvement also effectively enforces top-posting: it takes
 extra effort to post replies in the middle of quotes (like a conversation)
 and most people don't care.

I am in the e-mail world for some decades. It was always a good
style to write the answer on top of all other text and to not delete
anything that has written before. This makes it easy to save one late
copy of the e-mail conversation and more important to invite more
people to the conversation by extending the CC list. The Gmail
interface support this usable behavior of the user with this
improvement.

Mailing lists use the e-mail transport mechanism to build a community.
Here you have invited everybody who has subscribed to the list. We
just use the medium to have something like a forum without using a
dedicated tool. The pros and cons of e.g. Stackoverflow have been
discussed before. The technical mean what would fit best would have
been the usenet, but that's dead.

Finally we use e-mail in a way different from the mainstream. So we
will have to live with improvements that doesn't fit with our
requirements.

Regards
Helge

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