Re: Supporting my work on LilyPond financially
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Chris Crossen elaparic...@gmail.com wrote: I just wanted to re-emphasize that original point and hope the discussion has convinced a few more of us to make a small, but regular donation. If everyone on the mailing list chipped in 1 euro a month, that would get David out of financial problems, probably for the rest of his life... A slight over-exageration, perhaps, but not far off I think. Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
David Kastrup wrote Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:17 AM Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of LilyPond right away. For better or worse, I think that the interactive task of managing LilyPond versions is better placed with the editors which are supposed to interact with the user than the other way round. I agree strongly with both these points. Two things are needed: a) Augment Fresco on installation to prompt and help users to download and install LilyPond. I think Urs is considering doing this. Maybe do the same with Denemo. These then become the primary LP entry points for new users. b) Modify the LilyPond website and Learning Manual to point strongly to Fresobaldi and maybe Denemo as the recommended starting points for new users, rather than downloading just LP. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
On Wed, 2013-12-04 at 23:37 +0100, Johan Vromans wrote: Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes: At the moment this AI step is the simplest possible, it goes through the durations that you played assigning them to the nearest note lengths using only whole-note 1/256th note and dotted versions of them (no triplet values have been entered in the table of durations). I assume this is customizable to, e.g., whole-note...1/8th or something similar. I guess you mean the list of durations and the algorithm to choose between them? That is still in C but it is pretty trivial to export it so the user can play around with the AI bit. But even if only 80% of the durations are correct, this would already be helpful (for me, in some situations). I'm not a piano player. I can, however, enter notes using a (MIDI) keyboard in a slow and rhythmless pace, and I can tap the correct rhythm on a single key. I'd love to combine these two inputs. Well, I think it would be a good idea to test this out before I start writing code to support it. You can do this by writing a melody that is all on one note. That is, enter a piece just by tapping on one note. Then look to see how much of the durations it got right, and see if accepting the correct ones and altering the wrong ones would be a practical entry method, ignoring the fact that all the notes are the same pitch. (You can, in any case add these over the top afterwards just by placing the cursor on the first note and playing the notes on the MIDI keyboard at your own pace). I'm sure the first thing you will want is to start playing with the AI - are you able to write simple Scheme? If so I will break this out for you to play with sooner rather than later. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
Noeck wrote This editor (lilypad) in Windows is deterrent. ... Well, when I started working with LILYPOND, I allready had expeciance with both command line compilers and IDE compilers. So I never tried Frescobaldi. And I stopped using lilypad very, very soon; immediately after I noticed I did not support UTF-8 encoding. I created a few tiny helper programs, e.g. to 'translate' the UTF-8-output of lilypond.exe correctly to the windows command line terminal. I did not start to create my own editor resp. Itegrated_Developemnt_Environment, because (1) I would need a coulple of month to implement it, (2) my solution would only have the look and feel of IDE programs of the 80-ies (3) it would be exclusively for windows. ArnoldTheresius -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/A-thought-on-Windows-Experience-was-useability-promoting-etc-tp155017p155085.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
Am 05.12.2013 10:48, schrieb Richard Shann: I guess you mean the list of durations and the algorithm to choose between them? I think he simply wants to choose from different quantization values before playing. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Supporting my work on LilyPond financially
Christ van Willegen cvwille...@gmail.com writes: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Chris Crossen elaparic...@gmail.com wrote: I just wanted to re-emphasize that original point and hope the discussion has convinced a few more of us to make a small, but regular donation. If everyone on the mailing list chipped in 1 euro a month, that would get David out of financial problems, probably for the rest of his life... Just for the record, I am not having financial problems: I am trying to make my income match my comparatively modest expenses as nothing else will work in the long run. But that does not mean that bankruptcy is around the corner. What it does mean is that at some point of time a different job may be around the corner. And I would not wait with starting to look until things became desperate. So payments for my work on LilyPond will not be to get me out of financial problems: the problem, namely that income and expenses have to match, is not of temporary nature and not one of personal mishap. Payments for my work on LilyPond are basically you supporting a cultural charity for the public good that in turn pays me regularly for providing that public good. Except that we've optimized away the charity in the middle. So if you want to feel good, it is more for doing something good for LilyPond, its community, music and Free Software. Not so much for me. Since I don't exactly evoke the warm fuzzy feeling of a big-eyed puppy, that's probably a good thing. A slight over-exageration, perhaps, but not far off I think. I think you are overestimating the readership here. I recently checked the Cc list for my reports (so far nobody asked for getting removed from that list) which consists of all people who have contributed so far. I was actually surprised that it was about 80 entries long. True, containing quite a few entries for one-time contributions or short periods of time, but nevertheless the number does not appear negligible compared to the active readership here. The thought if everybody contributed just a little seems compelling. It's actually my experience that those who pledge to contribute a monthly payment less than €10 tend to stop after few months, probably because they think it does not make a difference. So unless one manages to get along on lots of small one-time payments (implying an even larger audience one has to reach), I don't see how I can get around tapping those who are enthusiastic about LilyPond, are invested in it, more than those who care only a little. At any rate, this _is_ an impressive community. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 11:21 +0100, Urs Liska wrote: Am 05.12.2013 10:48, schrieb Richard Shann: I guess you mean the list of durations and the algorithm to choose between them? I think he simply wants to choose from different quantization values before playing. Yes, you would do that by changing the list of durations and hence what they are assigned to. As David points out in this thread, more sophisticated approaches would be needed to get something useful. I am very happy to provide the interface but don't expect to be working on the algorithm any time soon. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Schikkers List
Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org writes: Federico Bruni writes: Sure, but the thing is: why showing the text input if you cannot modify it? Why enable editing the text input as long as it's next to useless because it's slow and buggy? Your request is noted, though. Next to useless is O(1) of useful. Bugs get fewer and machines faster. Word for Windows became a success story ultimately. Thanks. I was thinking of active panes in the tutorial. What if you could edit all these snippets: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/simple-notation I think it would be a big improvement already if URL:http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2578 was implemented. And probably a starting point anyway. using a tablature instead of a staff. You choose the tuning and then enter numbers on each string, then the number should be turned into the right pitch. I guess this is not easy to implement. But it may attract users of Tuxguitar, Guitarpro and similar. Can we do away with choosing the tuning, isn't there a common tuning for guitar that 90% of guitars use? Can we do away with the command line, isn't there a common desktop environment that 90% of computer users use? Tuning is not necessarily per guitar but rather per piece. It is quite common to have pieces in lute tuning (one string a semitone off, don't remember which one right now) and also to turn the lowest string one note down occasionally. As opposed to piano or accordion players, guitar players are expected to be able to retune their instrument in concert. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 09:10 +, Trevor Daniels wrote: David Kastrup wrote Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:17 AM Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of LilyPond right away. For better or worse, I think that the interactive task of managing LilyPond versions is better placed with the editors which are supposed to interact with the user than the other way round. I agree strongly with both these points. Two things are needed: a) Augment Fresco on installation to prompt and help users to download and install LilyPond. I think Urs is considering doing this. Maybe do the same with Denemo. The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in. Not sure about the GNU/Linux one. Richard These then become the primary LP entry points for new users. b) Modify the LilyPond website and Learning Manual to point strongly to Fresobaldi and maybe Denemo as the recommended starting points for new users, rather than downloading just LP. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
Am 05.12.2013 11:54, schrieb Richard Shann: The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in. Not sure about the GNU/Linux one. Which LP version? ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 11:59 +0100, Urs Liska wrote: Am 05.12.2013 11:54, schrieb Richard Shann: The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in. Not sure about the GNU/Linux one. Which LP version? I'm not sure, it is built with a cloned GUB, and so can be pointed to any version provided all the other bits that may have been modified in LilyPond's GUB to get it working are copied over. I'll look when I next get on a windows machine... Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Supporting my work on LilyPond financially
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:11 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Christ van Willegen cvwille...@gmail.com writes: If everyone on the mailing list chipped in 1 euro a month, that would get David out of financial problems, probably for the rest of his life... Just for the record, I am not having financial problems: That was part of my over-exageration. I was not saying that you had financial problems, but the message was meant to be: If we all chipped in 1 euro per month, David could probably work on Lilypon the rest of his life. A slight over-exageration, perhaps, but not far off I think. I think you are overestimating the readership here. I recently checked the Cc list for my reports (so far nobody asked for getting removed from that list) which consists of all people who have contributed so far. I was actually surprised that it was about 80 entries long. True, containing quite a few entries for one-time contributions or short periods of time, but nevertheless the number does not appear negligible compared to the active readership here. Any idea how much 'active readership' would be? The thought if everybody contributed just a little seems compelling. Yes. It shares the burden of improving Lilypond. It's actually my experience that those who pledge to contribute a monthly payment less than €10 tend to stop after few months, probably because they think it does not make a difference. Too bad :-( So unless one manages to get along on lots of small one-time payments (implying an even larger audience one has to reach), I don't see how I can get around tapping those who are enthusiastic about LilyPond, are invested in it, more than those who care only a little. If you look at Kickstarter, it's quite obvious how (many people) * (a small amount) = (a large(ish) amount of money). That would certainly pave the way to a continued development on Lilypond... Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:42 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com writes: Where do I sign up and what do I need to know about the way the current site works? I cannot write a single line of C++, my Scheme skills are meager at best (limited mostly to taking existing code and tweaking parameters), and I've only looked into MetaFont enough to send a patch to Janek to review to refine the shape note parameters to deal with unsightly MI and SO noteheads. (speaking of which, Janek... :) ). But I can do web development. One thing you have to realize that much of the content is created programmatically with a uniform look and feel. So much is contained in style sheets, and most of the rest is basically hand-written fragments combined by procedures. Which, in comparison to the popular HTML authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses closely, exactly entails the workflows that would have been used for something out of the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. So if you are versed with modern tools for web development, you may easily be frustrated at just how little possibility there is for employing them as you are used to do. There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except when I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been hand coding websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of popular HTML authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses closely. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org writes: Am 05.12.2013 10:48, schrieb Richard Shann: I guess you mean the list of durations and the algorithm to choose between them? I think he simply wants to choose from different quantization values before playing. Yes. When I know my piece is only going to have 1/8th notes and longer the algorithm doesn't need to take smaller amounts into consideration. -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Schikkers List
David Kastrup writes: Why enable editing the text input as long as it's next to useless because it's slow and buggy? Your request is noted, though. Next to useless is O(1) of useful. Bugs get fewer and machines faster. Word for Windows became a success story ultimately. What I mean is that I have some code for this. However, I like to find a short path to any true useful application of Schikkers List and go that path first. After dabbling a bit with text input, I decided to work on numerous usability problems, implement slurs, ties, tweaks, audio player and whatnot 5878ea3 Paper: make size:line 840 mm wide. Avoids overflowing to second system. f21f45d Update music, page tests. b88c09a system.test: new file. Test and fix 840mm wide paper. 953f6e7 page(set): Rename from add, refactor. 8028ff5 page(add-): Refactor. 19d7311 page.test: Add overflow test. feb2ddf page.test: Add. d9613fb Web: Cutpasto. Fixes rest checkbox. 35e47d1 Web: use init-form rather than init-value. Fixes new document scrolling. 5b05b09 schikkers.js: Call expose on new-document. Fixes score display. 4f65149 Update HACKING info. c5c709f Invalidate: modified's system or cursor's (was: modified or last). 48adff1 Update guile-gnome patchset. 6db5643 music-layout(invalidate): Invalidate all upon clef, key, time change. 45084a6 page(add-): Remove dummy stop system iso replace. Fixes overfull pages. ca2b360 Add scroll wheel support and functionality. e38f83e Remove stale comments. 7627544 Web: more compact logging. 56b4d10 Web: use actual value for expose, keep cursor visible. Fixes #21. cd6131c Heuristics to disallow second line/page when --size=line. [disabled] 374eebd Web: freehand tests. 7a8f57c Web: New ui layout: score left, editor right, use page-count. Fixes #20. 5d8b2cb Resize hack for jquery-ui. bccdcf7 Gnome: make button press aware of dragging. 710de50 Update BUGS. 14fdae0 Update LilyPond patches. 1599954 Gnome: draw selection upon dragging. 399f8db Gnome: add drag handlers for background. d953be3 gnome-music-canvas(path): flip-y points. Fixes tie display. 924dde1 Add ties. 7ae881f Web: disable obnoxious alerts, enable IE audio fallback. b5e0c28 Web: reluctantly add legacy MP3s for Apple users. Does that help them -- I guess--, or does keep them ignorant about their enslavement where they could have been awakened? ac65ec1 Web: bugfix for reading mp3. b31cec5 rhythmic-event(re-tag!): New function: include articulations. Fixes #14, #15. 7f5b3d8 Web: duration name nits. 3f8c214 Update BUGS. 91982ea Web: update note/rest image on rest checkbox. c2af4cd [Gnome]: Also update dotted button, image and en/disable. 9df82eb Bugfix: don't add duration-0 rests. 2ea6d44 [Gnome]: update image/disable duration/rest buttons. e421c39 Update BUGS, NEWS. 4b9e7bc Disallow duration changes that shift music. 7c15919 Nit: no newline after \relative. aae7dea Bugfix: ly-default clef. 7af9481 Duration-edit: Web: disable duration radios longer than free space. fafc790 music(get-neighbor-note-or-rest): Rename from (get-neighbor-note) and move. 42640d0 duration(duration-number): Rename from (duration). Remove rationalize. d2648a4 Omit unnecessary ly of \context Voice=one. 60c173b Refactor ly-default for clef, key, time. da87a9a Omit gratitious ly of default clef. 2af40be Omit gratitious ly of default key. fcae095 Omit gratitious ly of default time, include not-default time style in ly. 211555d Usability: Web: use rests on duration buttons in rest mode. c1d93c6 Usability: Have up/down keys modify pitch. 11d5c4f Usability: When rest checked, add rest. 6f31552 Usability: Use radio buttons for duration. 7e878d1 Web: add simple audio player. b02ad22 Web: more focus fixes. 29d51cd Web: ensure to keep focus, also upon button press. Fixes scrolling. d446307 Web[ie]: remove ugly border around image. bdacd75 Web: add audio control. Muted by default. 6894ab6 Web: test slider. 02a379c Web: audio: play note on hover/enter. 1ddee7d Add slur. 395564f Audio test 3. a1e3859 Audio update. a583bc6 WIP: web audio test. e7a1312 Oops, remove alert. 0c49eb6 Oops, reset start-music. f4c9c60 Web: Enable dragging control points. 57ff96b Web: only slur-mouseout if outside of BBox. Enables clicking control points. a63788c Web: Show a slur's control points when hovering. e07114d Add ly for slur with test. 5f0df05 Bind () to slur. 9feff1b Web: weird FF20 compatibility for checkbox.checked === false means checked? 18c942d Web: fixes for updating rest checkbox. 885135d Web: Add slur. 8e3b41b Web: add range selection. 41d3bfe Web: Update Raphael. Enables range selection. 4f37401 Fix support for 2/2 and 4/4. Thanks Björk! 1de386a Add
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com writes: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:42 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com writes: Where do I sign up and what do I need to know about the way the current site works? I cannot write a single line of C++, my Scheme skills are meager at best (limited mostly to taking existing code and tweaking parameters), and I've only looked into MetaFont enough to send a patch to Janek to review to refine the shape note parameters to deal with unsightly MI and SO noteheads. (speaking of which, Janek... :) ). But I can do web development. So if you are versed with modern tools for web development, you may easily be frustrated at just how little possibility there is for employing them as you are used to do. There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except when I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been hand coding websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of popular HTML authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses closely. Good. The first stop is the contributors' guide URL:http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/contributor/index.html. That will tend to give you more of a feeling of the writer of the documentation rather than the meat of the procedures turning their work into web pages, but it should likely get you more of an idea what you are dealing with. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
2013/12/5 Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com: There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except when I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been hand coding websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of popular HTML authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses closely. I don't want my initial proposal to get polluted with issues about cuteness of our web page. My stronger idea would be: Let's give new users something they can double-click and start playing without the need of calling them stupid for having done so -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Schikkers List
Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org writes: Can we do away with choosing the tuning, isn't there a common tuning for guitar that 90% of guitars use? Can we do away with the command line, isn't there a common desktop environment that 90% of computer users use? What I meant was: what is required for the a minimal first useful user experience. Would a hardcoded tuning do, so that we can implement a tuning choosing mechanism later? Tuning is not necessarily per guitar but rather per piece. OK. It is quite common to have pieces in lute tuning (one string a semitone off, don't remember which one right now) and also to turn the lowest string one note down occasionally. So I take it that my guess that 90% of all guitar pieces have standard tuning was too optimistic? Depends on what you call a guitar piece. Chord accompaniment (strumming guitar) is almost exclusively eadgbe (Dutch names, not German). But you don't need LilyPond for that. Tablature is probably a bit more than 90% of all pieces. But an evening with classical guitar music will often not be fully covered. Professional Rock/Pop musicians often have a number of guitars on stage just for saving the time to retune for particular pieces (as a retune needs time to settle, this may involve more than the tuning time itself). -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
- Original Message - From: Carl Peterson There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except when I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been hand coding websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of popular HTML authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses closely. As David says, the complexities of keeping lots of different formats in step and usable means we don't use any web development tools. Please see http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/contributor/documentation-work for information about how our documentation works. We'd love to have you contribute. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
- Original Message - From: Francisco Vila paconet@gmail.com To: Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com Cc: David Kastrup d...@gnu.org; LilyPond Users lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:52 PM Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience 2013/12/5 Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com: There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except when I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been hand coding websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of popular HTML authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses closely. I don't want my initial proposal to get polluted with issues about cuteness of our web page. My stronger idea would be: Let's give new users something they can double-click and start playing without the need of calling them stupid for having done so I think I said about 4,000 messages ago that I would be willing to update the Windows install so that a double-click opens the files in a default editor of the user's choice, with LilyPad being the default. FWIW that's the editor I started with (well, actually the current version is better), and it is quite good enough to get you started. However, I'm too busy with college right now, so if someone else wants to do it, please volunteer. Too many people on this thread saying what's wrong, too few offering to help. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: LilyPond (and Denemo?)
I have the same problem SoundsFrom Sounds pointed at. Too many windows popping up (I use Windows 7 home edition) whenever I open Denemo. Best regards. Fulvio 2013/12/5 Ryan McClure ryanmichaelmccl...@gmail.com I saw your video and kind of chuckled at how many windows popped up... not to make light of how many come up :) I only have two, the main window and a PDF viewer. - Ryan McClure Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/LilyPond-and-Denemo-tp155027p155073.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
2013/12/5 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: Anyway, what about something like this: a higher-level installer that installs LilyPond and lets user choose what editing program he wants to use: LilyPond files can be edited using different programs. Pleasse choose what to install additionally: * Denemo (has a GUI but it cannot open lilypond files created with other programs) * Frescobaldi (gives you more control, but doesn't have a GUI) * I'm a computer wizard, and I'll use my own EMACS/vim/Notepad++ This way we avoid the problem of favoring one editor over the other. Are you going to implement this for all GUB targets? MacOSX, MacOS PowerPC, Windows, FreeBSD, and so on? Write a higher-level installer for all of these that will know how to get at all the editors for all of these? Ah, i forgot that everything should be generic enough to be able to go through GUB. It'd be hard indeed... :-( ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
Tim McNamara wrote: If you think that Lilypond's web page needs a facelift, then volunteer to roll up your sleeves and help change it... Werner Lemberg wrote: Do you want to work on that? We don't have a specialist who really likes to dive into the nifty HTML and Java issues while creating the contents via the texinfo format so that the PDF stays in sync with the HTML and info output. Tim and Werner, I would love to, and have considered a few times in the past. Unfortunately I do not have the time, have no experience of texinfo, and would probably have to ditch it within the coming year due to future plans anyway. I don't know how the current system is setup, but I don't see the need for nifty HTML. A separation of content and presentation, with clean, simple, hand coded (s)html pages (as noted by others...html authoring tools clutter the code - usually with info needed by the authoring tool itself) . Extensive use of divs, the usual webpage furniture where needed (menus, crumblines, buttons, etc), a few graphics, style sheets, and little else. Definitely no client-side scripting, and content for dynamic pages (and static pages if you want) provided by server-side includes. It seems child's play to me, but David's comments leave me wondering how entangled the current setup may be. Francisco Vila wrote: I don't want my initial proposal to get polluted with issues about cuteness of our web page. My stronger idea would be: Let's give new users something they can double-click and start playing without the need of calling them stupid for having done so I completely agree. I think the lilypond desktop icon is a problem as I initially suggested, and I think that it should be a first priority. However lilypond definitely needs a little window dressing in order to get folks to come on in. While David and others are busy working on the Porsche engine (and a fine engine it is from my perspective), I feel the bodywork have been left to get dusty/rusty. This all ties in with the need to market/promote lilypond and David's need for funding. The best and most efficient means of promotion on the net is by word-of-mouth. Word soon gets around if something is good, but also if it is bad, faulty, or problematic. While those involved in lilypond may think that meager resources should be channelled into software development, perhaps some time should be dedicated to focusing on increasing lilyponds user base which would ultimately translate into more chances of help and funding. It's a bit chicken and egg! Phil. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)
Branching this discussion into its own topic On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Phil Burfitt phil.burf...@talktalk.netwrote: Tim McNamara wrote: If you think that Lilypond's web page needs a facelift, then volunteer to roll up your sleeves and help change it... Werner Lemberg wrote: Do you want to work on that? We don't have a specialist who really likes to dive into the nifty HTML and Java issues while creating the contents via the texinfo format so that the PDF stays in sync with the HTML and info output. Tim and Werner, I would love to, and have considered a few times in the past. Unfortunately I do not have the time, have no experience of texinfo, and would probably have to ditch it within the coming year due to future plans anyway. I don't know how the current system is setup, but I don't see the need for nifty HTML. A separation of content and presentation, with clean, simple, hand coded (s)html pages (as noted by others...html authoring tools clutter the code - usually with info needed by the authoring tool itself) . Extensive use of divs, the usual webpage furniture where needed (menus, crumblines, buttons, etc), a few graphics, style sheets, and little else. Definitely no client-side scripting, and content for dynamic pages (and static pages if you want) provided by server-side includes. It seems child's play to me, but David's comments leave me wondering how entangled the current setup may be. Having dived into the git repo and page source a little, here is what I see as the road map to improving the look of the LilyPond website, with an eye toward getting the most benefit the fastest. 1) Review the CSS of both the website and the documentation. These are simply CSS files that don't need any compiling or reconfiguring. The eyesore for me is the documentation, and it would be nice to start to move the two into more of a seamless experience (where there's not an obvious change in the look beyond the documentation being documentation with a side frame for navigation. 2) Look at updating the images. One of the things that has come to mind on this point is updating the LilyPond icon/logo. If we want to compare looks to other software packages, take a look at those in comparison (or in comparison to about 75% or more of the well-known commercial programs overall. I'm currently working on a logo design using Inkscape/SVG as the source, which will have the advantage of being text-based and thus well-integrated into git (if, for whatever reason, we would want to think about changing it in the future. I realize that change would impact potentially the build process if there's any icon creation going on. 3) Consider different structural issues. This, I think, is where we really start to get into questions about texinfo and how that is compiled into the static web pages. Such changes may require us going back to #1 above, but I think a lot of the changes at this level may or may not have a tangible benefit in marketing LilyPond. The real impact is going to be on #1 and to an extent, #2, which provides the user the initial impression of how modern or friendly LilyPond is. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
Hi, 2013/12/2 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: At any rate, we need to pitch LilyPond to _ourselves_ and listen what annoys us. Particularly when explaining LilyPond to others and/or pitching it to them. I can do this at any moment. But how to make sure that it won't end up as another long rant that everybody reads but noone acts upon? The last thing i want is to waste time on talking instead of doing something. I honestly don't know how to proceed here! The approach i used there (i mean crowd-engraving) proved to be a good one, but we'd have to make a lot things simpler to make this really effective. I mean, i was the only one who could combine the parts into the full score - creating \score blocks (real-life \score blocks, with all nuances and settings) is too difficult for beginners. Good, then we have to make a lot of things simpler to make this really effective. For starters, we could take https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/templates/predefined-instruments and expand it, and add such predefined instruments to official LilyPond. I think it would make structural work much easier (esp. for beginners). Just take a look at the simplicity this could give us: this https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/blob/master/templates/predefined-instruments/simple-example.ly can produce the attached output. Defining this stuff manually would take 2-3 times more code and a lot of doc study. Last time i got stuck on something in this template, but if you (or someone else experienced with scheme functions) would offer to help, i'd like to get back to this. I would imagine that the combining parts into the full score thing is something that a live template engine for Frescobaldi should help with. Where a live template is not just some code copied for a starting point, but more something like a folding editor of a predetermined structure where you tie parts in that are stored in separate files. Then you can hand out that template, and regularly update those files that people are _not_ currently working on (for example, git merges fine when everybody edits different files). Indeed, such separation of content and structure is a very good thing, and i try to design my templates that way. But my point was that currently i'm the only one in my choir who can get hold of structural stuff, because it's complicated. 2013/12/3 Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com: 2. Floating lyric spacing. Right now, lyrics are by default centered underneath the note they are attached to. This is fine in many circumstances, but when there are multiple stanzas with syllables of varying length, this can create some irregular spacing and general ugliness. This is bugging me for *years*. See http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2456 I tried solving it in summer 2012, but I failed... I expect that by 2015 i should have enough skill to fix it. 2013/12/3 flup2 phili...@philmassart.net: Regarding the feeling of people about the quality of their tool, it's simple: most people don't think that their Word layout is crappy. The same can occur with musical scores, except that even less people know musical typography. So, a lot of people won't think or feel my score is bad if they don't know which way they could loot better. Some situation will show LilyPond better, other will show Finale or Sibelius. That's why i'm talking with every musician i meet and show him/her some engraving comparisons that demonstrate real, serious problems (not just this doesn't look nice stuff that is mostly mentioned in the Essay). I'm quite surprised that noone (did i overlook someone?) expressed interest in getting these comparisons and translating them, despite my offer. best, Janek attachment: example.png___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
Am 05.12.2013 18:09, schrieb Janek Warchoł: I'm quite surprised that noone (did i overlook someone?) expressed interest in getting these comparisons and translating them, despite my offer. There were some people mentioning that, but actually it looks like you had Polish texts to offer, and I doubt there are many here that could translate them ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: improving LilyPond useability
2013/12/4 Jacques Menu imj-...@bluewin.ch My recent experience creating choir scores for the first time, one of them with difference words a given stanza in a repeated part (see attachments), makes me think it would help to have off-the-shelf *commented* samples of some size and complexity, as a complement to the existing snippets. Sounds like a good idea. I could add some real-life score examples of my own. Where would you place such material? A new manual, or in an existing one? Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
Am 05.12.2013 18:28, schrieb Urs Liska: Am 05.12.2013 18:09, schrieb Janek Warchoł: I'm quite surprised that noone (did i overlook someone?) expressed interest in getting these comparisons and translating them, despite my offer. There were some people mentioning that, but actually it looks like you had Polish texts to offer, and I doubt there are many here that could translate them Hi Janek, at least I know people speaking Polish ;) I would like to have a look (even if I probably don't have the time to translate it). Cheers, Joram ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: 2013/12/2 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: At any rate, we need to pitch LilyPond to _ourselves_ and listen what annoys us. Particularly when explaining LilyPond to others and/or pitching it to them. I can do this at any moment. But how to make sure that it won't end up as another long rant that everybody reads but noone acts upon? Oh, it _will_ end up as another long rant that everybody reads but noone acts upon for a long time. Issue 3682 tooks decidedly more than a year before I acted upon it. That's because it's not really convincing me without issue 3648. And for issue 3648, things had to be sorted out in the parser before it became feasible. And, of course, 2.18 had to be branched off. A lot of things take a basic constellation of things to be right before they can be done sensibly. But such a constellation will not be reached by chance: one has to work on it. And that means that one has to have some goals in the back of one's mind. A few months ago, I worked on the meaning and implementation of \defaultchild and the relation to implicit contexts. Work which seems utterly without purpose. It isn't. I have some tasks in the back of my mind which move closer to be doable because of those changes. For starters, we could take https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/templates/predefined-instruments and expand it, and add such predefined instruments to official LilyPond. I think it would make structural work much easier (esp. for beginners). We need to figure out how we can provide style sheets, similar to how LaTeX makes it possible to define document classes (layout definitions and tools) and packages (raw functionality packaged into coherent interfaces). Moving in the direction where this is possible also takes some pressure of stable/unstable development and features/fixes: something which comes in its own, optionally used file is not disruptive to the core stability. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: improving LilyPond useability
Hi Daniel, (sorry for delayed reply - so many emails flying around...) 2013/12/2 Daniel Rosen drose...@gmail.com: -Original Message- From: Janek Warchoł [mailto:janek.lilyp...@gmail.com] I've created a Quick-start tutorial some time ago - my choir colleagues used it when crowd-typesetting Dixit Dominus. It's only 6 pages long and covers nearly all basic notation elements than a beginner would need - but it's not just a cheat-sheet: it introduces and teaches how to use Lily. Add to that 3 pages explaining how to write basic structure and we'd have something that gives an easy (but complete enough) introduction to LilyPond in half an hour (as opposed to 2 days of reading and heavy thinking for the Learning manual). Sounds awesome. I'd be more than happy to share this tutorial and translate it, but i don't have time to lead an effort to incorporate it in our docs. So, if someone wants to take responsibility for this, i'll help, but without support this will not work out! I would definitely be willing to help with this, but I’m afraid that my skill set may be too limited to take the lead--in particular, I don't speak any languages well enough to translate them into English without resorting to Google. That's not a problem at all! I would translate my materials to English; as for translating them back to other languages we have people who'd take care of that. What you'd have to do is to turn my materials into proper documentation: find a place for it, fix wording (my translation probably won't be perfect), incorporate comments from other developers, etc. In other words, i'd be glad to make the translation but i want to be sure that my work will actually be used, and that someone will shepherd it through our contributing process so that it ends up in the official documentation (i don't have time to this management myself). Of course if you run into *any* technichal difficulty (like how do i add a new section to the documentation?), i'll try to help. But i need someone that will take responsibility for getting it done. Quite frankly, i think this would be an excellent project to get started in contributing to LilyPond. It doesn't require programming expertise or any particular knowledge - you just have to put some effort in. best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
2013/12/5 Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org: Am 05.12.2013 18:09, schrieb Janek Warchoł: I'm quite surprised that noone (did i overlook someone?) expressed interest in getting these comparisons and translating them, despite my offer. There were some people mentioning that, but actually it looks like you had Polish texts to offer, and I doubt there are many here that could translate them. 2013/12/5 Noeck noeck.marb...@gmx.de: at least I know people speaking Polish ;) I would like to have a look (even if I probably don't have the time to translate it). Hmm, it seems that i didn't make myself clear. I meant to say that i'll gladly do the translation *if* there are people who'd actually use it (and contribute back similar lily-marketing materials). Since there seems to be some interest, i'll post what i currently have (in a separate thread). best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)
Hi, 2013/12/5 Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com: Having dived into the git repo and page source a little, here is what I see as the road map to improving the look of the LilyPond website, with an eye toward getting the most benefit the fastest. [...] I have no expertise in these areas, so i cannot comment on the technical side. But i can provide feedback and testing - just ask! best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
Just take a look at the simplicity this could give us: this https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/blob/master/templates/predefined-instruments/simple-example.ly can produce the attached output. ... and I see a buglet in this image: The vertical line in the Soprano's ambitus must not degenerate to a dot. Either the line gets omitted completely, or it gets stretched a bit. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
David Kastrup d...@gnu.org schrieb: We need to figure out how we can provide style sheets, similar to how LaTeX makes it possible to define document classes (layout definitions and tools) and packages (raw functionality packaged into coherent interfaces). Moving in the direction where this is possible also takes some pressure of stable/unstable development and features/fixes: something which comes in its own, optionally used file is not disruptive to the core stability. You can imagine that I like this idea ;-) Would also make it more straightforward for editors to implement functionality based on LilyPond or Scheme code that's not part of LilyPond itself. Is this just a thought or has there already been discussion about this? Urs -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
2013/12/5 Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org: Just take a look at the simplicity this could give us: this https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/blob/master/templates/predefined-instruments/simple-example.ly can produce the attached output. ... and I see a buglet in this image: The vertical line in the Soprano's ambitus must not degenerate to a dot. Either the line gets omitted completely, or it gets stretched a bit. ... and 10 points for Werner Lemberg for eagle sight! However, http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3525 and thus attachment :-) simple-example.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
We need to figure out how we can provide style sheets, similar to how LaTeX makes it possible to define document classes (layout definitions and tools) and packages (raw functionality packaged into coherent interfaces). *This* is a very worthy project IMHO! It basically means a lot of studying lilypond scores out in the wild to get a feeling how users are arranging stuff. It doesn't need any knowledge of lilypond internals, so non-core developers are invited to contribute! Based on that there should be an abstraction step to get a sensible interface. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
Tim and Werner, I would love to, and have considered a few times in the past. Unfortunately I do not have the time, have no experience of texinfo, and would probably have to ditch it within the coming year due to future plans anyway. It's not so much about texinfo but... I don't know how the current system is setup, but I don't see the need for nifty HTML. A separation of content and presentation, with clean, simple, hand coded (s)html pages (as noted by others...html authoring tools clutter the code - usually with info needed by the authoring tool itself). Extensive use of divs, the usual webpage furniture where needed (menus, crumblines, buttons, etc), a few graphics, style sheets, and little else. Definitely no client-side scripting, and content for dynamic pages (and static pages if you want) provided by server-side includes. It seems child's play to me, but David's comments leave me wondering how entangled the current setup may be. ... but someone who is an experienced web page designer and/or JavaScript programmer/user. The separation between content and presentation is already there due to the very nature of texinfo. As a starter, it would help us a lot if such a person analyzes, say, the top-level lilypond web page, giving recommendations how to improve, ideally in small, logical steps. A complete redesign starting from scratch is *much* harder to implement, I believe. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
... and I see a buglet in this image: The vertical line in the Soprano's ambitus must not degenerate to a dot. Either the line gets omitted completely, or it gets stretched a bit. However, http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3525 and thus attachment :-) Hehe, thanks. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: improving LilyPond useability
Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: 2013/12/4 Jacques Menu imj-...@bluewin.ch My recent experience creating choir scores for the first time, one of them with difference words a given stanza in a repeated part (see attachments), makes me think it would help to have off-the-shelf *commented* samples of some size and complexity, as a complement to the existing snippets. Sounds like a good idea. I could add some real-life score examples of my own. Where would you place such material? A new manual, or in an existing one? Documentation/ly-examples? I actually have no idea where those end up, I just sometimes change them when new syntax comes around. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 11:59 +0100, Urs Liska wrote: Am 05.12.2013 11:54, schrieb Richard Shann: The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in. Not sure about the GNU/Linux one. Which LP version? The latest Denemo binary for windows has LilyPond 2.16.2 built-in. But you can install the development version separately and point Denemo to it via the preferences. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
[no subject]
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 18:34:53 +0100 From: Janek Warcho? janek.lilyp...@gmail.com To: Jacques Menu imj-...@bluewin.ch Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org discuss lilypond-user@gnu.org Subject: Re: improving LilyPond useability Message-ID: canyddppocc3isejmudwi4a3m2_35kyuw54yfr9muxjxqmob...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2013/12/4 Jacques Menu imj-...@bluewin.ch My recent experience creating choir scores for the first time, one of them with difference words a given stanza in a repeated part (see attachments), makes me think it would help to have off-the-shelf *commented* samples of some size and complexity, as a complement to the existing snippets. Sounds like a good idea. I could add some real-life score examples of my own. Where would you place such material? A new manual, or in an existing one? Janek This is an excellent suggestion, examples of small ensembles of various genres suitably authorised by the keepers of the runes would be invaluable to the beginner. These should be as free as possible of tweaks as these will confuse and de-motivate the uninitiated. As much as is possible instructions should be intuitive - you cannot really say that for most Lily tweaks though. regards Peter Gentry ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Hi all, as promised, here are engraving comparisons that i hand out to musicians i meet: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71760856/engraving%20comparisons.zip (this link is temporary, expect that it won't be valid after a couple weeks). One comparison is in English - other are in Polish, but you'll figure out everything from the pictures :) I think it'd be great to have a public collection of such marketing stuff, so that when we want to demonstrate LilyPond to someone we'll have some resources available. Of course, i know that we have a feature list on the website, but i think we could use some more involved and in-depth materials. Anyway, who'd like to join such effort? In addition to translating the comparisons, which i'd do, it'd be nice to design a flyer, a list of why use LilyPond arguments, more comparisons, etc best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: improving LilyPond useability
2013/12/5 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: 2013/12/4 Jacques Menu imj-...@bluewin.ch My recent experience creating choir scores for the first time, one of them with difference words a given stanza in a repeated part (see attachments), makes me think it would help to have off-the-shelf *commented* samples of some size and complexity, as a complement to the existing snippets. Sounds like a good idea. I could add some real-life score examples of my own. Where would you place such material? A new manual, or in an existing one? Documentation/ly-examples? I actually have no idea where those end up, I just sometimes change them when new syntax comes around. Apparently here: http://lilypond.org/examples.html Which means that it's not quite the right place for them. For starters, examples from http://lilypond.org/examples.html are there because they look nice, not necessarily because their lily code is pretty; people are not meant to learn LilyPond from them but rather get impressed by the output. best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Placing _\markup below lyrics
I have a melody with lyrics below, and in places, some TextScript
markup, also below.
In the attached example, I would like the markup to appear below
the lyrics, instead of between the melody and the lyrics.
How can I accomplish this?
Thank you!
Jim
\version 2.17.95
%\paper { ragged-right= ##f }
melody = \relative c' {
c4 c c c | c4 c c c
c4 c c c | c4_\markup melody staff markup c c c
}
words = \lyricmode {
la la la la
la la la la
la la la la
la la la la
}
\score {
\melody
\addlyrics \words
}
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Excellent comparisons...looking at Finale made me cringe, but it reminded me why I made the switch to LilyPond. :) I'd be more than willing to help out. I am able to access Sibelius in my university's computer lab and can make some samples of Sibelius. I also have Finale access too, along with Musescore. I'd love to help out with this...More people need to see why these programs aren't the best for beautiful output :) - Ryan McClure Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/engraving-comparisons-and-other-promotional-materials-tp155133p155135.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Images from snippets
Hi, here is an idea for the snippets library: For later use*, one could introduce a header entry to get a small image showing the purpose of the snippet. There one could specify the coordinates of a part of the example. Naming suggestions: snippet-image, snippet-crop, snippet-thumbnail, snippet-icon Here is an example to show what I mean: for snippets/notation-snippets/hairpin-with-text this line could be added to the header: snippet-icon = 85x85+95+107 Then these lines could produce the corresponding image: lilypond -fpng example.ly convert -crop 85x85+95+107 example.png example-icon.png Of course, this could be automated. If the author provided the coordinates of the interesting part of the examples file, the necessary information would be in the library. Potential pitfall: When the the example is changed, the numbers need adjustment. If commandline cropping is possible with svg (should be the case), it might be an even better solution. What do you think? (Especially Urs and Janek) Cheers, Joram * I am thinking of an html page, showing all snippets. Being someone who likes overview pages, this would make it easier to skim over lots of snippets and estimate if one of them can be useful. ascii-art illustration: [ ] *snippet-title* [image] snippet-description [ ] ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: improving LilyPond useability
On 12/05/2013 01:54 PM, Janek Warchoł wrote: 2013/12/5 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: 2013/12/4 Jacques Menu imj-...@bluewin.ch My recent experience creating choir scores for the first time, one of them with difference words a given stanza in a repeated part (see attachments), makes me think it would help to have off-the-shelf *commented* samples of some size and complexity, as a complement to the existing snippets. Sounds like a good idea. I could add some real-life score examples of my own. Where would you place such material? A new manual, or in an existing one? Documentation/ly-examples? I actually have no idea where those end up, I just sometimes change them when new syntax comes around. Apparently here: http://lilypond.org/examples.html Which means that it's not quite the right place for them. For starters, examples from http://lilypond.org/examples.html are there because they look nice, not necessarily because their lily code is pretty; people are not meant to learn LilyPond from them but rather get impressed by the output. There are two possibilities which come to mind: - an appendix to LM, which would actually be my *second* choice, or - a new Templates library, analogous to the Snippets. Cheers, Colin -- I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt on both hands. You need to be able to throw something back. -Maya Angelou, poet (1928- ) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
A quick question--sorry to clog the mailling list--but what are the rules concerning copyright with this sort of thing? Would all works have to be public domain/approved by the copyright holder? I assume the answer is yes, but I don't want to take any chances. I'm from the US if that makes any difference. - Ryan McClure Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/engraving-comparisons-and-other-promotional-materials-tp155133p155137.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Placing _\markup below lyrics
Hi there Jim,
This is messy--really messy. But, here's what I came up with:
\version 2.17.95
%\paper { ragged-right= ##f }
melody = \relative c' {
c4 c c c | c4 c c c
c4 c c c | \override Score.TextScript #'extra-offset = #'(0 . -3)
c4_\markup melody staff markup c c c
}
words = \lyricmode {
\override LyricText #'extra-offset = #'(0 . 2)
la la la la
la la la la
la la la la
la la la la
}
\score {
\melody
\addlyrics \words
}
Trying to use \override Score.TextScript #'outside-staff-priority had no
affect, and I'm not sure why. So, I added an offset to the markup. This
pushed down the lyrics, so the override in the lyrics pushes it back up. I'm
unsure as to why outside-staff-priority didn't work, though.
-
Ryan McClure
Music Education Major, Shepherd University
Luna Music Engraving
www.lunamusicengraving.com
--
View this message in context:
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Placing-markup-below-lyrics-tp155136p155141.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Extending LilyPond with packages
I'm starting a new thread because the original thread has diversified
too much already.
Am 05.12.2013 18:48, schrieb David Kastrup:
For starters, we could take
https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/templates/predefined-instruments
and expand it, and add such predefined instruments to official
LilyPond. I think it would make structural work much easier (esp.
for beginners).
We need to figure out how we can provide style sheets, similar to how
LaTeX makes it possible to define document classes (layout definitions
and tools) and packages (raw functionality packaged into coherent
interfaces).
Moving in the direction where this is possible also takes some pressure
of stable/unstable development and features/fixes: something which comes
in its own, optionally used file is not disruptive to the core
stability.
OK, I'll give it a first try.
Please be aware that this isn't a specification put up for review but a
first shot to nourish a discussion.
As a working hypothesis I'll try to take LaTeX and TeXLive as a model.
Adding the concept of document classes and packages/stylesheets to
LilyPond seems a very good idea to me. This would allow a consistent way
to add functionality to LilyPond without a) bloating or b) compromising it.
Responsibility for stability and usefulness would be deferred to the
package author and users, code is only loaded into LilyPond when the
user decides to need it in a concrete score. I don't think it's a
problem that users may run into command not found problems. This
equally present in LaTeX, and it isn't really a problem.
Consequently this would allow us to be much more generous when it comes
to accept contributions. CTAN respectively TeXLive more or less accept
any contribution if it
- is suitably licensed
- has documentation (not only in binary form)
- doesn't create naming conflicts.
There is practically no selection based on quality of code, concept or
being in line with the preferences of the maintainers.
I think this could be copied.
For now I'm concentrating on packages because document classes seem more
complex, and one aspect should be enough for a first post.
Provide a directory structure in the LilyPond directory. This is
automatically included in the search path and will be searched
recursively, so I can simply use myNewPackage although it's actually
in the fancy/engravers subdirectory.
Maybe it would be good to consequently accept a parallel private
directory structure (like ~/texmf) where the user can manage his own
packages or 'install' packages received from others or downloaded
somewhere.
This isn't necessary because it could easily be dealt with through
traditional search paths, but I'd say it's a nice way to get things
consistent.
If a package isn't found in LilyPond itself search
- a default location (e.g. a directory in the homedir)
- look for an environment variable
- an include path (or all) specified on the command line
---
One question is whether the library should be included in the default
installation/download or if it should be made optional.
Consequently one would have to discuss if one needs a package manager
like tlmgr.
---
Basically a package can provide arbitrary code to be included.
It can for example provide
- overrides to modify the output appearance (classic stylesheet)
- new commands / functionality
- alternative header definitions with arbitrary header fields
- engravers or anything one would otherwise include too.
Provide commands like \usepackage and \RequirePackage (naming could be
discussed) that include the package file.
Differences to \include
- search path management (recursive search)
- allow options:
e.g. (in LaTeX syntax)
- \usepackage[font=Libre Baskerville]{mySongbookHeader}
- \usepackage[staffsize=17]{beamerLayout}
- \usepackage[keep-only-original]{originalBreaks} % ;-[]
- \usepackage[console,color,html]{annotate} % (print messages to
console, color grobs, export html list)
Optional arguments could be passed as a Scheme alist.
Maybe it would be good to provide commands to consistently handle such
options inside the package so one doesn't have to reinvent the wheel in
each new package.
---
A package should have its own manual like in LaTeX.
Integration a potentially high number of manuals in LilyPond's
documentations seems not maintainable.
---
I think one wouldn't need much more as an interface for packages.
Some of this is also applicable for document classes. But I won't think
about this right now although I can imagine them to be extremely useful.
Best
Urs
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Images from snippets
Am 05.12.2013 22:28, schrieb Noeck: Hi, here is an idea for the snippets library: For later use*, one could introduce a header entry to get a small image showing the purpose of the snippet. There one could specify the coordinates of a part of the example. Naming suggestions: snippet-image, snippet-crop, snippet-thumbnail, snippet-icon Here is an example to show what I mean: for snippets/notation-snippets/hairpin-with-text this line could be added to the header: snippet-icon = 85x85+95+107 Then these lines could produce the corresponding image: lilypond -fpng example.ly convert -crop 85x85+95+107 example.png example-icon.png Of course, this could be automated. If the author provided the coordinates of the interesting part of the examples file, the necessary information would be in the library. Potential pitfall: When the the example is changed, the numbers need adjustment. If commandline cropping is possible with svg (should be the case), it might be an even better solution. What do you think? (Especially Urs and Janek) I think this is well in line with an idea I have had for some time. Probably we'll soon be in the situation to have too many snippets to be conveniently used so we should somehow have documentation. I'm thinking about a script that creates Markdown files from the snippets themselves, respectively their headers. Github will then display them as HTML pages automatically. Adding images to that documentation is surely a good idea. Could you please add an issue to the repository's tracker? This will reduce the risk of the idea being lost. Urs ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: improving LilyPond useability
There are two possibilities which come to mind: - an appendix to LM, which would actually be my *second* choice, or - a new Templates library, analogous to the Snippets. there is a templates folder in the snippet library! https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets I copy the current folders in snippets here, so that more people get aware what can be contributed to this library: custom-music-fonts debugging-layout general-tools input-shorthands meta notation-snippets simple-examples specific-solutions stylesheets templates Cheers, Joram ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
The U.S. has the concept of fair use see 17 U.S.C. § 107 1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; 2. the nature of the copyrighted work; 3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and 4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. Anyway for the majority of examples it should be the case that out of copyright material can be had, but some things will by there nature require such small examples of such copyrighted material due to more innovative typesetting treatment or notation practices that occurred after the obscenely lengthy protection period. of course one might make parodies of such material such as mucky mouse or what have you. Shane On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Ryan McClure ryanmichaelmccl...@gmail.com wrote: A quick question--sorry to clog the mailling list--but what are the rules concerning copyright with this sort of thing? Would all works have to be public domain/approved by the copyright holder? I assume the answer is yes, but I don't want to take any chances. I'm from the US if that makes any difference. - Ryan McClure Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/engraving-comparisons-and-other-promotional-materials-tp155133p155137.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: improving LilyPond useability
Am 05.12.2013 22:39, schrieb Noeck: There are two possibilities which come to mind: - an appendix to LM, which would actually be my *second* choice, or - a new Templates library, analogous to the Snippets. there is a templates folder in the snippet library! https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets I copy the current folders in snippets here, so that more people get aware what can be contributed to this library: custom-music-fonts debugging-layout general-tools input-shorthands meta notation-snippets simple-examples specific-solutions stylesheets templates Cheers, Joram There is also an 'editorial-tools' folder not merged to master yet. But I'm not sure if that repository is a useful item to discuss in this context right now. Urs ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: improving LilyPond useability
2013/12/5 Noeck noeck.marb...@gmx.de: There are two possibilities which come to mind: - an appendix to LM, which would actually be my *second* choice, or - a new Templates library, analogous to the Snippets. there is a templates folder in the snippet library! https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets Indeed. Anyway, i think what Jacques Menu proposed was to put some examples of complete, real-life scores. These are not templates; they should be named differently. A template is an empty structure without real music (and real-life adjustments). best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Placing _\markup below lyrics
Trying to use \override Score.TextScript #'outside-staff-priority had no affect, and I'm not sure why. I think, because this sets the priority (closeness-to-staff) within the context and Lyrics is another context below and not part of the staff. So Lyrics is always placed lower as the lowest object in the Staff above. Cheers, Joram ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Placing _\markup below lyrics
I think, because this sets the priority (closeness-to-staff) within the context and Lyrics is another context below and not part of the staff. So Lyrics is always placed lower as the lowest object in the Staff above. That makes sense. So, as of now then, there is no clean way to put anything below the lyrics that comes from the staff itself? I have to admit, this is the first time I've seen a situation like this. -Ryan McClure ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Extending LilyPond with packages
Hi, 2013/12/5 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: For starters, we could take https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/templates/predefined-instruments and expand it, and add such predefined instruments to official LilyPond. I think it would make structural work much easier (esp. for beginners). We need to figure out how we can provide style sheets, similar to how LaTeX makes it possible to define document classes (layout definitions and tools) As for stylesheets, isn't it just a matter of designing custom \layout blocks that can be \included into scores? Here's a stub i created: https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/stylesheets I also think that the predefined instruments stuff i linked to can be a great help in making such stylesheets effective. Moving in the direction where this is possible also takes some pressure of stable/unstable development and features/fixes: something which comes in its own, optionally used file is not disruptive to the core stability. I only hope that this wouldn't become too diverse. One thing i really dislike about LaTeX is that there are multiple packages doing one thing, package conflicts etc. best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Extending LilyPond through packages
I'm starting a new thread because the original thread has diversified
too much already.
Am 05.12.2013 18:48, schrieb David Kastrup:
For starters, we could take
https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/templates/predefined-instruments
and expand it, and add such predefined instruments to official
LilyPond. I think it would make structural work much easier (esp.
for beginners).
We need to figure out how we can provide style sheets, similar to how
LaTeX makes it possible to define document classes (layout definitions
and tools) and packages (raw functionality packaged into coherent
interfaces).
Moving in the direction where this is possible also takes some pressure
of stable/unstable development and features/fixes: something which comes
in its own, optionally used file is not disruptive to the core
stability.
OK, I'll give it a first try.
Please be aware that this isn't a specification put up for review but a
first shot to nourish a discussion.
As a working hypothesis I'll try to take LaTeX and TeXLive as a model.
Adding the concept of document classes and packages/stylesheets to
LilyPond seems a very good idea to me. This would allow a consistent way
to add functionality to LilyPond without a) bloating or b) compromising it.
Responsibility for stability and usefulness would be deferred to the
package author and users, code is only loaded into LilyPond when the
user decides to need it in a concrete score. I don't think it's a
problem that users may run into command not found problems. This
equally present in LaTeX, and it isn't really a problem.
Consequently this would allow us to be much more generous when it comes
to accept contributions. CTAN respectively TeXLive more or less accept
any contribution if it
- is suitably licensed
- has documentation (not only in binary form)
- doesn't create naming conflicts.
There is practically no selection based on quality of code, concept or
being in line with the preferences of the maintainers.
I think this could be copied.
For now I'm concentrating on packages because document classes seem more
complex, and one aspect should be enough for a first post.
Provide a directory structure in the LilyPond directory. This is
automatically included in the search path and will be searched
recursively, so I can simply use myNewPackage although it's actually
in the fancy/engravers subdirectory.
Maybe it would be good to consequently accept a parallel private
directory structure (like ~/texmf) where the user can manage his own
packages or 'install' packages received from others or downloaded somewhere.
This isn't necessary because it could easily be dealt with through
traditional search paths, but I'd say it's a nice way to get things
consistent.
If a package isn't found in LilyPond itself search
- a default location (e.g. a directory in the homedir)
- look for an environment variable
- an include path (or all) specified on the command line
---
One question is whether the library should be included in the default
installation/download or if it should be made optional.
Consequently one would have to discuss if one needs a package manager
like tlmgr.
---
Basically a package can provide arbitrary code to be included.
It can for example provide
- overrides to modify the output appearance (classic stylesheet)
- new commands / functionality
- alternative header definitions with arbitrary header fields
- engravers or anything one would otherwise include too.
Provide commands like \usepackage and \RequirePackage (naming could be
discussed) that include the package file.
Differences to \include
- search path management (recursive search)
- allow options:
e.g. (in LaTeX syntax)
- \usepackage[font=Libre Baskerville]{mySongbookHeader}
- \usepackage[staffsize=17]{beamerLayout}
- \usepackage[keep-only-original]{originalBreaks} % ;-[]
- \usepackage[console,color,html]{annotate} % (print messages to
console, color grobs, export html list)
Optional arguments could be passed as a Scheme alist.
Maybe it would be good to provide commands to consistently handle such
options inside the package so one doesn't have to reinvent the wheel in
each new package.
---
A package should have its own manual like in LaTeX.
Integration a potentially high number of manuals in LilyPond's
documentations seems not maintainable.
---
I think one wouldn't need much more as an interface for packages.
Some of this is also applicable for document classes. But I won't think
about this right now although I can imagine them to be extremely useful.
Best
Urs
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Extending LilyPond with packages
Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org writes:
[ a whole lot of very good observations, ideas and suggestions ]
Basically a package can provide arbitrary code to be included.
It can for example provide
- overrides to modify the output appearance (classic stylesheet)
- new commands / functionality
- alternative header definitions with arbitrary header fields
- engravers or anything one would otherwise include too.
1. From a user perspective, this is all style. Terms like package and
class will scare away (new) users.
2. All this can already be done with \include .
Differences to \include
- search path management (recursive search)
So add search path management for \include .
- allow options:
e.g. (in LaTeX syntax)
- \usepackage[font=Libre Baskerville]{mySongbookHeader}
Yikes no. Putting options before the classname is one of the most
disgusting 'features' of LaTeX. More LilyPond-like would be
\include mySongbookHeader \with {
\override font = Libre Baskerville
}
Yes, it's more verbose, but it's logical and completely in line with
current LP syntax.
-- Johan
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Extending LilyPond through packages
2013/12/5 Urs Liska urs.li...@schoenberg-lieder.de: I'm starting a new thread because the original thread has diversified too much already. [.] It seems that this email is a duplicate of http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-12/msg00321.html ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)
On 04/12/13 19:02, Phil Holmes wrote: For me, I'd say that we should not install Frescobaldi as a pre-requisite of running Lily on Windows. I'm a heavy Windows user, and would not want another program installed by default. I've not used it, but I do understand that many people feel it's excellent - so an option would be to promote it more heavily for Windows users? Yes, but arguably the default configuration should be what is best for new users, and installing Frescobaldi does make a certain amount of sense here -- it's an excellent dedicated IDE for Lilypond that really makes it easier to understand the process of creating scores. The way many Windows installers work is that they present you as a user with a list of components to select to be installed, of which some will be selected (or not) by default. There's no reason not to have Frescobaldi bundled with the installer but deselectable if you don't want it. I am willing to look at improving the Windows experience, although this would need to wait until my degree finishes next Summer. However, there's one thing I don't know: what should happen when you double-click a .ly file in Explorer: open an editor or compile the file? Open the file, I'd say. It'd be pretty intrusive if simply double-clicking on a text file in Explorer was to cause the launch of a process that might take a very long time, consume a large amount of system resources, and generate a large new file to write to disk. It's also at odds with the way in which source files for other markups and languages are treated when opened via the file browser. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Extending LilyPond through packages
Am 05.12.2013 23:20, schrieb Janek Warchoł: 2013/12/5 Urs Liska urs.li...@schoenberg-lieder.de: I'm starting a new thread because the original thread has diversified too much already. [.] It seems that this email is a duplicate of http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-12/msg00321.html Yes. Somehow I sent it from the wrong address. When it didn't show up on the list I repeated it from the right address. No idea why this message eventually was delivered. So please stop this thread and reply to the other message exclusively. Urs ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
On 12/05/2013 05:20 PM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: The way many Windows installers work is that they present you as a user with a list of components to select to be installed, of which some will be selected (or not) by default. There's no reason not to have Frescobaldi bundled with the installer but deselectable if you don't want it. What about the option of having other editors such as Denemo as well as an option? I myself prefer Frescobaldi, but I know that a few prefer Denemo. I feel it to be a bit unfair to only have one option bundled with an installer. -Ryan McClure ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
2013/12/5 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: 2013/12/2 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: At any rate, we need to pitch LilyPond to _ourselves_ and listen what annoys us. Particularly when explaining LilyPond to others and/or pitching it to them. I can do this at any moment. But how to make sure that it won't end up as another long rant that everybody reads but noone acts upon? Oh, it _will_ end up as another long rant that everybody reads but noone acts upon for a long time. Issue 3682 tooks decidedly more than a year before I acted upon it. That's because it's not really convincing me without issue 3648. And for issue 3648, things had to be sorted out in the parser before it became feasible. And, of course, 2.18 had to be branched off. A lot of things take a basic constellation of things to be right before they can be done sensibly. But such a constellation will not be reached by chance: one has to work on it. And that means that one has to have some goals in the back of one's mind. Heh. I have tried several times to start various discussions among devs about things that we should have in the back of our minds, but it seemed to me that each time i failed ;-) Anyway, it seems that this (talking about problems so that we'll have them in the back of our minds) is needed. Do you have any suggestions about the actual form of such talk? Should wee restrict topics somehow or talk about everything? Should we add our observations to the tracker with a usability tag? Should there be someone who'll introduce topics one by one in some order? best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Extending LilyPond with packages
Am 05.12.2013 22:54, schrieb Janek Warchoł: Hi, 2013/12/5 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: For starters, we could take https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/templates/predefined-instruments and expand it, and add such predefined instruments to official LilyPond. I think it would make structural work much easier (esp. for beginners). We need to figure out how we can provide style sheets, similar to how LaTeX makes it possible to define document classes (layout definitions and tools) As for stylesheets, isn't it just a matter of designing custom \layout blocks that can be \included into scores? Here's a stub i created: https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/stylesheets I also think that the predefined instruments stuff i linked to can be a great help in making such stylesheets effective. Yes. You can create style sheets by simple include files with \layout blocks. That's what everybody does who uses such style sheets. But the idea is to provide a consistent interface and way to _deploy_ such functionality. My suggestions would ensure that I can always use a stylesheet by its name without caring for include paths. From LilyPond's POV it would allow to include such additional material without requiring it to be in a state that would let it pass the review stage. And of course such packages (however we'd name it) are much more than style sheets. They can add arbitrary functionality. Moving in the direction where this is possible also takes some pressure of stable/unstable development and features/fixes: something which comes in its own, optionally used file is not disruptive to the core stability. I only hope that this wouldn't become too diverse. One thing i really dislike about LaTeX is that there are multiple packages doing one thing, package conflicts etc. Hm. I think this is why we're discussing these things. Of course there is such a risk. But OTOH I think the LilyPond community is considerably smaller than LaTeX, therefore the number of contributed packages would be significantly smaller. Then one could maybe direct people to rather improve existing packages than adding new ones. Urs best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Images from snippets
2013/12/5 Noeck noeck.marb...@gmx.de: For later use*, one could introduce a header entry to get a small image showing the purpose of the snippet. There one could specify the coordinates of a part of the example. Naming suggestions: snippet-image, snippet-crop, snippet-thumbnail, snippet-icon Here is an example to show what I mean: for snippets/notation-snippets/hairpin-with-text this line could be added to the header: snippet-icon = 85x85+95+107 Then these lines could produce the corresponding image: lilypond -fpng example.ly convert -crop 85x85+95+107 example.png example-icon.png This seems somewhat inconvenient to me (too manual). But i think we should rather speak about implementation details when we *have* a HTML frontend Anyway, thanks for suggestions! Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Extending LilyPond with packages
Am 05.12.2013 23:20, schrieb Johan Vromans:
Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org writes:
[ a whole lot of very good observations, ideas and suggestions ]
Basically a package can provide arbitrary code to be included.
It can for example provide
- overrides to modify the output appearance (classic stylesheet)
- new commands / functionality
- alternative header definitions with arbitrary header fields
- engravers or anything one would otherwise include too.
1. From a user perspective, this is all style. Terms like package and
class will scare away (new) users.
I intentionally used the existing LaTeX terminology because that way it
is clearer what I mean.
The used terms are in no way intended to be canonical.
I think there _should_ be a difference between style sheet and document
class (I didn't talk about classes at all so far), regardless of a used
name.
Styles are items that can freely be used and added to a document while
the class is fundamental to a document.
2. All this can already be done with \include .
Differences to \include
- search path management (recursive search)
So add search path management for \include .
As said in the other reply to Janek, the idea is about a consistent way
to include material in the LilyPond distribution. And I think something
like my suggestion could be a good solution. A different command would
make that more clear.
Two things that aren't possible with \include: Options and a Require (or
include once), so a new command would be necessary anyway.
- allow options:
e.g. (in LaTeX syntax)
- \usepackage[font=Libre Baskerville]{mySongbookHeader}
Yikes no. Putting options before the classname is one of the most
disgusting 'features' of LaTeX. More LilyPond-like would be
\include mySongbookHeader \with {
\override font = Libre Baskerville
}
Yes, it's more verbose, but it's logical and completely in line with
current LP syntax.
As said above I used LaTeX terminology, but not in order to suggest
using it too.
I like the \with construct although one could perhaps leave out the
\override.
Urs
-- Johan
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Placing _\markup below lyrics
On Thu, Dec 05, 2013 at 01:32:43PM -0800, Ryan McClure wrote:
Hi there Jim,
This is messy--really messy. But, here's what I came up with:
...
\override Score.TextScript #'extra-offset = #'(0 . -3)
...
\override LyricText #'extra-offset = #'(0 . 2)
Thanks, Ryan.
I had thought about this, but hadn't pursued actually trying it,
hoping there was a better way. It does work, and is manageable for
short passages (the few places where I want markup below the lyrics).
One thing I did learn was that my example was inadequate, because the
following is also needed:
\override LyricExtender #'extra-offset = #'(0 . 2)
My tiny example had no lyric extenders, but my real-world example does.
Their extra-offset is set separately from the extra-offset of the
lyrics themselves.
Jim
\version 2.17.95
%\paper { ragged-right= ##f }
melody = \relative c' {
c4 c c c | c4 c c c
c4 c c c | \override Score.TextScript #'extra-offset = #'(0 . -3)
c4_\markup melody staff markup c c c
}
words = \lyricmode {
\override LyricText #'extra-offset = #'(0 . 2)
\override LyricExtender #'extra-offset = #'(0 . 2)
la __ _ la __ _
la __ _ la __ _
la __ _ la __ _
la __ _ la __ _
}
\score {
\melody
\addlyrics \words
}
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
David Kastrup wrote Thursday, December 05, 2013 5:48 PM
We need to figure out how we can provide style sheets, similar to how
LaTeX makes it possible to define document classes (layout definitions
and tools) and packages (raw functionality packaged into coherent
interfaces).
A simpler approach would be to embed templates into LP so that they
could just be invoked. The template would provide the context structure
of a particular type of score, and also define the variables needed. All
the (new) users would need to do would be to override the values of the
variables with their own music.
You can try this now by simply using \include. Two \include's are needed:
one which goes at the top of the file to define and set up the default
values of the variables and one which goes at the bottom of the file to
define the context structure. A real example using a template which
provides an SATB choir on two staves with lyrics between them and
a piano staff with accompaniment is attached. I've left out the two
include files, but you can easily image what they contain. You'll see this
is a really easy interface for a new user, as all the complication is
provided by the included file.
A nice feature is that any context left without input is not printed, so the
same template could be used for SA and piano, just piano, a variable
number of verses, etc.
If this mechanism were to be embedded in LP all that would be needed
as the user interface would be something like
\use SA-TB-B-template
before the user code providing the music, as attached.
Just a thought ...
Trevor
\version 2.17.96
\include SA-TB-P-init.ily
#(set-global-staff-size 19)
\header {
title = 'Twas Cool that Night in Bethlehem
composer = James L. Alty
poet = James L. Alty
}
\paper {
page-count = 2
}
Time = {
\numericTimeSignature
\time 4/4
\tempo 4 = 100
\repeat volta 4 {
s1*17
}
\alternative {
{ s1 }
{ s1 }
}
s1*2
\bar |.
}
Key = { \key ef \major }
LadiesInstrumentName =
\markup \right-column \smallCaps { Soprano Alto }
MenInstrumentName =
\markup \right-column \smallCaps { Tenor Bass }
PianoInstrumentName = \markup \smallCaps Piano
SopranoMusic = \relative {
\oneVoice R1 | r2 r4 \voiceOne bf'\mp\( | bf bf bf af | bf ef bf4.\) af8\( | g4 g g f |
g2.\) g4\(\ | f g c, g' | f g bf4.\)\mf g8\(\ | f4 ef ef c | ef2.\) c'4\p\( |
c4 bf c ef | c bf g f\) | g4.\( f8 g4 bf | c,2.\) ef4\mf\( | f\ g bf\) g\( |
c4 bf ef4.\)\f c8\(\mf | af4\ g f ef\p | ef1\) | ef | \oneVoice R1 | R1 |
}
AltoMusic = \relative {
s1 | s2. g'4 | g g af af | g g af4. ef8 | ef4 ef c c |
d2. d4 | c c af d | c c d4. d8 | bf4 bf af af | bf2. g'4 |
g4 g g g | g g d d | d4. d8 ef4 ef | af,2. c4 | c d f ef |
g4 g af4. af8 | ef4 d c c | bf1 | bf1 | s1 | s1 |
}
TenorMusic = \relative {
\oneVoice R1 | r2 r4 \voiceOne ef' | ef ef ef ef | ef ef ef4. c8 | bf4 bf af af |
b2. bf4 | af af f bf | af af d4. bf8 | g4 g f f | g2. ef'4 |
ef ef ef ef | d ef bf bf | bf4. bf8 g4 g | f2. af4 | af bf bf bf |
e4 d c4. ef8 | c4 bf af af | g1 | g1 | \oneVoice R1 | R1 |
}
BassMusic = \relative {
s1 | s2. bf4 | bf bf c c | bf bf c4. af8 | ef4 d c c |
g'2. g4 | bf, d c d | bf c g4. d'8 | ef4 ef bf bf | ef2. c'4 |
bf4 bf af af | g bf g f| ef4. ef8 c4 bf | c2. ef4 | bf bf d ef |
c4 g' f4. f8 | f4 g f bf, | ef1 | ef | s | s |
}
VerseOne = \lyricsto Soprano \lyricmode {
\set stanza = 1.
'Twas cool that night in Beth -- le -- hem,
the U -- ni -- verse was still,
And time and space were full of grace,
a -- wai -- ting our Lord's will.
The an -- gels looked on an -- xious -- ly
and Ma -- ry gave a sigh.
And then all heav'n was full of joy:
they heard a ba -- by cry.
}
VerseTwo = \lyricsto Soprano \lyricmode {
\set stanza = 2.
A ti -- ny boy in swad -- dling clothes
lay in a man -- ger bare.
His love -- ly face was full of grace,
with -- out a world -- ly care.
Then Ma -- ry took him in her arms,
her fine be -- lov -- ed son.
She thanked the Lord for this great gift
and all that He had done.
}
VerseThree = \lyricsto Soprano \lyricmode {
\set stanza = 3.
An an -- gel from the Lord came down
to shep -- herds on the hill.
\hdq Great joy and peace I \tdq bring, he said,
\hdq and to man -- kind, good -- \tdq will.
They jour -- neyed down to Beth -- le -- hem
to seek what they'd been told.
They found the man -- ger and the boy
as was fore -- told of old.
}
VerseFour = \lyricsto Soprano \lyricmode {
\set stanza = 4.
That ba -- by grew in -- to a man,
who saved us from our sin.
Who died for us up -- on a cross,
and begs us to come in.
Why can't we all be like this man,
and fill our lives with grace?
To help the poor and weak and lame
un -- til we see his _ face.
}
PianoRH = \relative {
\repeat unfold 4 { d' ef g bf2 c ef g af2 } |
% bar 5
bf c ef g2 af c ef g |
% bar 6
g b d g2. g'4 | af, c f g' ef, f af c g' | af, c f g' d f g bf4. g8 |
%
Re: A thought on Windows Experience
2013/12/5 Ryan McClure ryanmichaelmccl...@gmail.com: On 12/05/2013 05:20 PM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: The way many Windows installers work is that they present you as a user with a list of components to select to be installed, of which some will be selected (or not) by default. There's no reason not to have Frescobaldi bundled with the installer but deselectable if you don't want it. What about the option of having other editors such as Denemo as well as an option? I myself prefer Frescobaldi, but I know that a few prefer Denemo. I feel it to be a bit unfair to only have one option bundled with an installer. This is a good idea, but as David already said, it's actually not easy to implement. :-/ Hey, what about this (just for now): since it's hard to actually install additional software, we could at least have links to Frescobaldi/Denemo webpages in Lily's installer, so that the users could install them themselves. David, this should be easy to do? Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
Janek Warchoł wrote Thursday, December 05, 2013 11:29 PM 2013/12/6 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk: A simpler approach would be to embed templates into LP so that they could just be invoked. The template would provide the context structure of a particular type of score, and also define the variables needed. All the (new) users would need to do would be to override the values of the variables with their own music. You can try this now by simply using \include. Two \include's are needed: one which goes at the top of the file to define and set up the default values of the variables and one which goes at the bottom of the file to define the context structure. A real example using a template which provides an SATB choir on two staves with lyrics between them and a piano staff with accompaniment is attached. I've left out the two include files, but you can easily image what they contain. You'll see this is a really easy interface for a new user, as all the complication is provided by the included file. A nice feature is that any context left without input is not printed, so the same template could be used for SA and piano, just piano, a variable number of verses, etc. I very much like it! Could you add it to https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/templates I could, but I'll need to annotate them first. And as I said above, a pair of \include'd files are needed, one at the top and one at the bottom - the user code goes in-between the two. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)
On 12/5/13 9:43 AM, Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com wrote: 1) Review the CSS of both the website and the documentation. These are simply CSS files that don't need any compiling or reconfiguring. The eyesore for me is the documentation, and it would be nice to start to move the two into more of a seamless experience (where there's not an obvious change in the look beyond the documentation being documentation with a side frame for navigation. Personally, I prefer the obvious change in look, because I like to know when I'm in the documentation. But that's just *my* opinion; others may agree with you. Thanks, Carl S. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu wrote: On 12/5/13 9:43 AM, Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com wrote: 1) Review the CSS of both the website and the documentation. These are simply CSS files that don't need any compiling or reconfiguring. The eyesore for me is the documentation, and it would be nice to start to move the two into more of a seamless experience (where there's not an obvious change in the look beyond the documentation being documentation with a side frame for navigation. Personally, I prefer the obvious change in look, because I like to know when I'm in the documentation. But that's just *my* opinion; others may agree with you. Thanks, Carl S. Having worked for two corporations that have fairly extensive (and stringent) visual identity and branding guidelines (colors, typeface, formatting, etc.), I've learned that there are ways to make an obvious change between two things while still making them look like they go together. At a minimum, unless we do a complete overhaul of our documentation system, the navigation sidebar is going to be an obvious indication that we've gone to another system. There are other things, such as header bars (as we have), that by their presence will indicate a different system, but the basic design can be similar or the same. That being said, you may be right, and perhaps we need some additional distinction between the two. *But,* I do feel like the stylesheet on the documentation needs to be reviewed and updated, regardless. Cheers, Carl P. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Weird specks in lyrics
I am typing up something for a paper. I have a small SATB example with a roman numeral analysis underneath. However, the RNA has weird specks in the lyrics. I replicated it here. Has anyone seen this before? Sample.ly http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n155172/Sample.ly - Ryan McClure Music Education Major, Shepherd University Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Weird-specks-in-lyrics-tp155172.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Weird specks in lyrics
I just reopened my own snippet and realized that I wrote midi {} rather
than layout{} When I corrected it, the specks disappeared I'll double
check and see if the specks vanished in my original as well...I wonder if
restarting Frescobaldi did something.
-
Ryan McClure
Music Education Major, Shepherd University
Luna Music Engraving
www.lunamusicengraving.com
--
View this message in context:
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Weird-specks-in-lyrics-tp155172p155173.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: promoting LilyPond
Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk writes: A real example using a template which provides an SATB choir on two staves with lyrics between them and a piano staff with accompaniment is attached. I've been using a similar approach for SLHML choir, with a skeleton template (attached). I haven't been able to add this to LSR since it's not a snippet file, but a package of associated files. A nice feature is that any context left without input is not printed, so the same template could be used for SA and piano, just piano, a variable number of verses, etc. Exactly. \use SA-TB-B-template An important 'feature' of the hypothetical \use (as opposed to \include) would be that it can do things in the beginning (e.g., settings), and at the end (e.g., handle the \score part(s)). -- Johan LHML.ly Description: Binary data ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Extending LilyPond with packages
Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org writes: Two things that aren't possible with \include: Options and a Require (or include once), so a new command would be necessary anyway. An important 'feature' of the hypothetical \usepackage (as opposed to \include) would be that it can do things in the beginning (e.g., settings), and at the end (e.g., handle the \score part(s)). As said above I used LaTeX terminology, but not in order to suggest using it too. Yes, but the risk exists... -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
