Double Bar with Grace Notes Problem

[Bill Kone]

I have a lot of concert/marching band music some of which is old hand
written manuscript. From time-to-time  I try to transcribe the hand-written
manuscript to a much more readable  product.

Generally I do each instrument then combine them into a score.

 

The problem is, in this case as shown in the sample below and attached
image, that a double bar before the grace notes, on the clarinet 1 and 2
seems to cause a separate bar line, which also increments the measure
counter, but only on the score.

 

Below is an extraction as a two staff script (the same as when each
independent part is combined into a score). Each part needs to have the same
bar markings so I can't just leave the double bar out on a couple of parts.

 

In this case I just took the double bars out completely from all the parts
but I am still wondering if it is my ignorance or what seems to me to be a
bug. 

 

In the attached script, by commenting out the double bar in the clarinet2
staff the problem goes away on the conductor's score but of course now the
clarinet2 part has a missing double bar.

 

I tried creating a variable defined as:  dblbar= { \bar "||" } then on the
conductor score defined it as: dlbar = {} for all but the top line of the
conductor's score in this case the flute. I believe it might work but made
management more difficult for something that I figured I was doing wrong.

Any thoughts?

 

See also attached image

 

\version "2.18.2"

 

\score{

  \new GrandStaff <<



\new Staff = "Clarinet1" 

{

  \set Staff.instrumentName = #"Clar1"

  \time 3/4

  g''8 r8 g8 r8 r4 |

  \bar "||" 

  \grace {g'16 ( b'16} d''8 )

  r8\grace {g'16 ( b'16} d''8 ) r8 r4 |

}





\new Staff = "clarinet2" 

{

  \set Staff.instrumentName = \markup { Clar2 }

  \time 3/4

  g''8 r8 g8 r8 r4 |

  

  % -- If I comment out this bar formats OK

  \bar "||" 

  % --

  

  d''8 r8 d''8 r8 r4 |

}

  >>

  \layout{}

}

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Re: reverse of \bar ".|:-||"

[Paul Scott]

On Mon, Apr 03, 2017 at 09:10:04PM +0200, Jan-Peter Voigt wrote:
> Hi Paul,
> 
> that barline does not exist by default, but you can define it yourself as
> needed (thanks to Urs' and Janeks work):
> 
> %%%
> #(define-bar-line "||-:|." ":|." "||" "||")
> { s1 \bar "||-:|." \break s1 }
> %%%
> 
> HTH
> Jan-Peter

Perfect!  Thank you!

Paul


> 
> Am 03.04.2017 um 20:06 schrieb Paul Scott:
> > 2.19.58
> > 
> > Does the logical reverse of \bar ".|:-||" ( "||-:|." ?) exist?
> > 
> > TIA,
> > 
> > Paul
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > 
> 
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Re: Drawing wavy line across the bars

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

-- Forwarded message --
...

What I'm interested in is that wavy line that comes across the bars (or
sometimes between the staves), usually preceded by some text with a
\whiteout-like effect. The meaning of this symbol is, "play exactly what
other instrument plays". How can I reproduce the same in Lilypond?

>From what I've learned yet, I'll have to create an engraver (in Scheme)
that should create a spanner (as the object could span several bars).
Additionally, I guess we already have some graphical primitive for wavy
line, used in glissandos and trills. But it's a bit obscure for me how to
bind the things together. I'm a bit new to extending Lilypond, so I'll be
grateful if someone experienced gives an outline of the solution.

Thanks in advance!
Dmitry



Sorry if my reply is not in the spirit of your question.

Which is to say, it is one thing if you are trying explicitly to replicate
an existing manuscript.

However, from a musical context, there is very little purpose for this
exercise.

The point of using the wavy lines is mostly laziness--it is the easiest way
to indicate that a part is doubled.  There is nothing special about the
wavy lines in terms of interpretation (except, of course, it becomes
ambiguous in your example in which octave the composer wants the piano to
play, since both guitar and bass are transposing instruments).

Since you're using lilypond, you could put the original parts in music
variables, then actually print the entirety of the parts that are
duplicated.  This would be easier to accomplish, and be more accurate
(especially if the octave matters).

I can see an argument that the wavy lines lets you digest a minimum of info
on the page, which might help with initial comprehension.  If that was
important, you could still print "Col Guitar" and print the duplicated
parts in a lighter shade of grey, or use cues (which prints with smaller
notes).

However, I'd bet that most of the time these wavy lines are used, the
composer/copyist/engraver would probably actually prefer to write the
entire part out, but that would be too much work, and the wavy lines are
good enough.

Especially since, if you are making parts for this score, you will have to
do exactly that in order to make the piano part--this notation only makes
sense in a score.


David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: Link to "A Complete List of Music Symbols With Their Meaning"

[Thomas Morley]

2017-04-03 23:20 GMT+02:00 Thomas Morley-2 :
> This is a test posting via the nabble-interface.
>
> Below the quoted message:
>
>
> Son_V wrote
>> Maybe useful for someone (I hope)
>> Should it be multilanguage...
>>
>> http://www.buzzle.com/articles/a-complete-list-of-music-symbols-with-their-meaning.html
>
> Here I try to repost the link Son provided by clicking "Link"-button and
> inserting it:
>
> http://www.buzzle.com/articles/a-complete-list-of-music-symbols-with-their-meaning.html
> 
>
>
> -Harm
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Link-to-A-Complete-List-of-Music-Symbols-With-Their-Meaning-tp201880p201907.html
> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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All there, afaict.
So I suspect a user error.

-Harm

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Re: Link to "A Complete List of Music Symbols With Their Meaning"

[Thomas Morley-2]

This is a test posting via the nabble-interface.

Below the quoted message:


Son_V wrote
> Maybe useful for someone (I hope)
> Should it be multilanguage...
> 
> http://www.buzzle.com/articles/a-complete-list-of-music-symbols-with-their-meaning.html

Here I try to repost the link Son provided by clicking "Link"-button and
inserting it:

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/a-complete-list-of-music-symbols-with-their-meaning.html

  


-Harm



--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Link-to-A-Complete-List-of-Music-Symbols-With-Their-Meaning-tp201880p201907.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Link to "A Complete List of Music Symbols With Their Meaning"

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 03.04.2017 um 17:04 schrieb David Wright:

As I say, I don't fully understand this remark. Are you saying that
Nabble can serve emails to an email client like Thunderbird using
standard protocols like IMAP/POP etc, or something different?


For what I understand, the Nabble interface is a tool to simplify (?) 
partaking in mailing lists, by making posts (which will get shipped by 
ordinary e-mail) and reading other people’s posts.
The problem is that Nabble formats the e-mail you compose in it somewhat 
weirdly, so stuff may not be displayed in e-mail clients that are not 
Nabble (including, as you wrote, the archives ). Which significantly 
lowers its value.


Best, Simon

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Re: No R in input! (Proposal for discussion)

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 03.04.2017 um 17:08 schrieb David Kastrup:

The full-measure rest thing
would fit that engraver [Completion_rests_engraver] and its niche as another 
option.


This makes a great deal of sense, since I’m using 
Completion_heads_engraver already (for splitting notes at barlines, 
which in a barless part aren’t split). So I’ll probably open a feature 
request in the tracker for that.


Best, Simon

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Re: reverse of \bar ".|:-||"

[Jan-Peter Voigt]

Hi Paul,

that barline does not exist by default, but you can define it yourself 
as needed (thanks to Urs' and Janeks work):


%%%
#(define-bar-line "||-:|." ":|." "||" "||")
{ s1 \bar "||-:|." \break s1 }
%%%

HTH
Jan-Peter

Am 03.04.2017 um 20:06 schrieb Paul Scott:

2.19.58

Does the logical reverse of \bar ".|:-||" ( "||-:|." ?) exist?

TIA,

Paul



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reverse of \bar ".|:-||"

[Paul Scott]

2.19.58

Does the logical reverse of \bar ".|:-||" ( "||-:|." ?) exist?

TIA,

Paul



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Re: Look what I found in the pond...

[Chris Yate]

And which one's you, David?


On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 at 10:03 David Kastrup  wrote:

>
> <
> http://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/rheinland/deutsche-maskenbildner-meisterschaft-duesseldorf-110~_v-gseagaleriexl.jpg
> >
>
> The whole article for this makeup competition is at
> <
> http://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/rheinland/deutsche-maskenbildner-meisterschaft-100.html
> >
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
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Re: Link to "A Complete List of Music Symbols With Their Meaning"

[David Wright]

On Mon 03 Apr 2017 at 12:46:09 (+0200), Simon Albrecht wrote:
> Am 03.04.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Son_V:
> >Maybe useful for someone (I hope)
> >Should it be multilanguage...
> 
> Through the Nabble interface one can actually see the link
> (I couldn’t here in Thunderbird).

I'm not sure what a "Nabble interface" is. I only know that I can
use the Nabble URL in a browser and then, and only then, I see the
link to buzzle. (I'm not being pedantic to be awkward; I just
can't look over your shoulder.)

Currently I receive lilypond-user@gnu.org posts in three different ways:
(1) email subscriber, (2) plain text digest subscriber, (3) mime digest
subscriber, and of course I can look at the list through
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-04/msg00052.html

None of the four versions of the OP contains the buzzle link
or any indication that something was removed. So it would
appear that what people post on Nabble does not get
"Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com" intact,
but has bits removed at one end or the other.

Once it gets to lilypond-user@gnu.org it's not safe either. As
mentioned here before, digest type (2) above has explicit attachments
"scrubbed" as well.

> Here it is for other non-Nabble users: 
> 
> 
> I gotta say, this Nabble interface is quite incompatible with other
> ways of reading e-mail – and Thunderbird isn’t exactly uncommon…

As I say, I don't fully understand this remark. Are you saying that
Nabble can serve emails to an email client like Thunderbird using
standard protocols like IMAP/POP etc, or something different?

Cheers,
David.

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Re: No R in input! (Proposal for discussion)

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> Completion_rest_engraver is there.
>
> Ah! Sorry I didn’t think to look. I guess this thread made me assume
> it must not exist.
>
>> It doesn't change r into R.
>
> So this is the point of discussion/contention?
>
> Okay, so…
>
>   SNIPPET BEGINS
> { \time 5/8 c''8*12 }
>
> \score {
> { \time 5/8 c''8*12 }
> \layout {
> \context {
> \Voice
> \remove "Note_heads_engraver"
> \consists "Completion_heads_engraver"
> }
> }
> }
>   SNIPPET ENDS
>
> Here, the engraver properly turns the *12 into two full measures of
> note-duration plus whatever’s left over (i.e., a quarter). If there
> existed a note-head equivalent of R (i.e., “a full measure of
> note-duration, regardless of time signature”), would we not want
> Completion_heads_engraver to use it? (I certainly would!) So how is
> the rest situation different?

Shrug.  Giving Completion_heads_engraver some additional option where it
produces full-measure rests rather than normal rests would be more in
line of being a feasible option.  Though producing compressible
full-measure rests might be rather involved.

Using Completion_rest_engraver does change the semantics.  Exactly
because of dubious semantics there is the context property
completionFactor that is used for determining just what subset of
durations will actually be dealt with usefully.

The engraver is of the "convenient but flawed by design, use at your own
danger" variety that only makes sense as an explicitly user-enabled
option for particular typesetting purposes.  The full-measure rest thing
would fit that engraver and its niche as another option.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: No R in input! (Proposal for discussion)

[Wols Lists]

On 02/04/17 21:24, David Kastrup wrote:
>> But does it actually demand too much of an engraver to take an r4*7
>> > event, check whether and how many full or partial measures are in its
>> > duration, write full-bar or multi-measure rests for all parts spanning
>> > full measures and normal rests for the remainder?

> What about "is fundamentally different in meaning" was unclear?  The
> rests have completely different visuals, not "just" different alignments
> and different numbers of grobs.

Maybe the bit about "the syntax is meaningless in context?"

As I understand it, in the relevant context, "R" is meaningless but full
or multiple bar rests are printed anyway?

It's ancient music, so all our pre-concieved notions of "correct" are
pretty dodgy, anyway :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: No R in input! (Proposal for discussion)

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> Completion_rest_engraver is there.

Ah! Sorry I didn’t think to look. I guess this thread made me assume it must 
not exist.

> It doesn't change r into R.

So this is the point of discussion/contention?

Okay, so…

  SNIPPET BEGINS
{ \time 5/8 c''8*12 }

\score {
{ \time 5/8 c''8*12 }
\layout {
\context {
\Voice
\remove "Note_heads_engraver"
\consists "Completion_heads_engraver"
}
}
}
  SNIPPET ENDS

Here, the engraver properly turns the *12 into two full measures of 
note-duration plus whatever’s left over (i.e., a quarter). If there existed a 
note-head equivalent of R (i.e., “a full measure of note-duration, regardless 
of time signature”), would we not want Completion_heads_engraver to use it? (I 
certainly would!) So how is the rest situation different?

Thanks for any clarification you can give.
Kieren.



Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: No R in input! (Proposal for discussion)

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David (et al.),
>
>> I have a hard time understanding how one can consider the visuals of
>> 
>> { \time 2/4 r4*12 }
>> { \time 2/4 R4*12 }
>> 
>> as conveying the same semantics.
>
> I agree that the visuals of those two things do not convey the same semantics.
>
> That being said, I consider the following snippet:
>
> %%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
> \version "2.19.54"
>
> { \time 2/4 c''4*12 }
>
> \score {
> { \time 2/4 c''4*12 }
> \layout {
> \context {
> \Voice
> \remove "Note_heads_engraver"
> \consists "Completion_heads_engraver"
> }
> }
> }
> %%%  SNIPPET ENDS
>
> The [note-data] *input* of these scores is identical — hence they ostensibly 
> convey the same semantics — but the *output* obviously conveys very different 
> semantics. So the addition of the Completion_heads_engraver *changes the 
> semantic space* in a non-trivial way, to the point that the original 
> semantics of the input are (as I understand it) impossible to represent in 
> the new output environment.
>
> As I read it, Simon is simply wondering why there isn’t an equivalent for 
> rests.
> And suddenly I am, too.  =)

Completion_rest_engraver is there.  It doesn't change r into R .

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: No R in input! (Proposal for discussion)

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David (et al.),

> I have a hard time understanding how one can consider the visuals of
> 
> { \time 2/4 r4*12 }
> { \time 2/4 R4*12 }
> 
> as conveying the same semantics.

I agree that the visuals of those two things do not convey the same semantics.

That being said, I consider the following snippet:

%%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
\version "2.19.54"

{ \time 2/4 c''4*12 }

\score {
{ \time 2/4 c''4*12 }
\layout {
\context {
\Voice
\remove "Note_heads_engraver"
\consists "Completion_heads_engraver"
}
}
}
%%%  SNIPPET ENDS

The [note-data] *input* of these scores is identical — hence they ostensibly 
convey the same semantics — but the *output* obviously conveys very different 
semantics. So the addition of the Completion_heads_engraver *changes the 
semantic space* in a non-trivial way, to the point that the original semantics 
of the input are (as I understand it) impossible to represent in the new output 
environment.

As I read it, Simon is simply wondering why there isn’t an equivalent for rests.
And suddenly I am, too.  =)

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Access Score.NoteColumn from a given note column

[David Nalesnik]

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 6:59 AM, Urs Liska  wrote:
>
>
> Am 03.04.2017 um 13:57 schrieb Urs Liska:
>> Is there a way to either affect the Grob in the Score context (probably
>> not) or to retrieve a list/array of all NoteColumns that happen at the
>> same time in other contexts?
>

The associated paper column will contain grobs from other contexts:

\new PianoStaff <<
  \new Staff
  \relative {
\override Score.NoteHead.before-line-breaking =
#(lambda (nh)
   (let*
((col (ly:item-get-column nh))
 (elts (ly:grob-array->list (ly:grob-object col 'elements)))
 (ncs (filter (lambda (elt) (grob::has-interface elt
'note-column-interface)) elts))
 (nc (ly:grob-parent nh Y))
 (id (ly:grob-property nh 'id))
 (mod (assoc-ref mods id)))
(if mod
(for-each (lambda (n)
(ly:grob-set-property! n 'X-offset mod))
  ncs))
))
c'1 ~ \tweak #'id "one" c2 e
  }
  \new Staff
  \relative {
R1
c'2 c
  }
>>

HTH,
David

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Re: Access Score.NoteColumn from a given note column

[Urs Liska]

Am 03.04.2017 um 13:57 schrieb Urs Liska:
> Is there a way to either affect the Grob in the Score context (probably
> not) or to retrieve a list/array of all NoteColumns that happen at the
> same time in other contexts?

PS: I could also imagine an engraver consisted to the Score context that
tests if at any given point in time *any* of the Voices contains that ID
and then applies the X-offset to all of them. Is that possible?

Urs

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Access Score.NoteColumn from a given note column

[Urs Liska]

Hi,

the following simplified example successfully shifts a note column of a
notehead with a given 'id.
However, as you can see from the output it (expectedly) does so only in
the current staff. As I'm dealing with an actual NoteColumn object in a
callback I can't simply say \once \override Score.NoteColumn etc.

Is there a way to either affect the Grob in the Score context (probably
not) or to retrieve a list/array of all NoteColumns that happen at the
same time in other contexts?

Thanks
Urs

\version "2.19.54"

#(define mods
   '(("one" . 5)))

\new PianoStaff <<
  \new Staff
  \relative {
\override Score.NoteHead.before-line-breaking =
#(lambda (nh)
   (let*
((nc (ly:grob-parent nh Y))
 (id (ly:grob-property nh 'id))
 (mod (assoc-ref mods id))
 )
(if mod
;(overrideProperty '(Score NoteColumn X-offset) 5))
(ly:grob-set-property! nc 'X-offset mod))
))
c'1 ~ \tweak #'id "one" c2 e
  }
  \new Staff
  \relative {
R1
c'2 c
  }
>>

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Re: No R in input! (Proposal for discussion)

[David Kastrup]

Simon Albrecht  writes:

> Am 02.04.2017 um 23:56 schrieb David Kastrup:
>> I have
>> a hard time understanding how one can consider the visuals of
>>
>> { \time 2/4 r4*12 }
>> { \time 2/4 R4*12 }
>>
>> as conveying the same semantics.
>
> Well, to me the semantics are ‘maintain silence for the given
> period’.

That's Midi.  It turns out that the typeset output conveys more
information and in a different manner.

> The first of your examples does have different semantics from the
> second one, because anybody reading it would see a quarter rest and
> lots of empty space, wondering what he should do with it, so I can’t
> imagine a usecase for that actual output.

Scaled rests, like scaled durations, have uses.  And in the course of
tuplets, they are even produced automatically.  Their spacing is
different from a rest with a skip IIRC, possibly also in connection with
text scripts.

> (A gap text, obviously, should be coded with skips.)  I’m sorry if I
> seem to be apodictic, I’m genuinely wondering where the flaw is in
> that idea.

Making previously valid input produce completely different output tends
to take more than "people should have done things the way I think best
anyway" reasoning.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Link to "A Complete List of Music Symbols With Their Meaning"

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 03.04.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Son_V:

Maybe useful for someone (I hope)
Should it be multilanguage...


Through the Nabble interface one can actually see the link (I couldn’t 
here in Thunderbird).
Here it is for other non-Nabble users: 



I gotta say, this Nabble interface is quite incompatible with other ways 
of reading e-mail – and Thunderbird isn’t exactly uncommon…


Best, Simon

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Re: No R in input! (Proposal for discussion)

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 02.04.2017 um 23:56 schrieb David Kastrup:

I have
a hard time understanding how one can consider the visuals of

{ \time 2/4 r4*12 }
{ \time 2/4 R4*12 }

as conveying the same semantics.


Well, to me the semantics are ‘maintain silence for the given period’. 
The first of your examples does have different semantics from the second 
one, because anybody reading it would see a quarter rest and lots of 
empty space, wondering what he should do with it, so I can’t imagine a 
usecase for that actual output. (A gap text, obviously, should be coded 
with skips.)
I’m sorry if I seem to be apodictic, I’m genuinely wondering where the 
flaw is in that idea.


Best, Simon

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Link to "A Complete List of Music Symbols With Their Meaning"

[Son_V]

Maybe useful for someone (I hope)
Should it be multilanguage...



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Look what I found in the pond...

[David Kastrup]

The whole article for this makeup competition is at


-- 
David Kastrup

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