Re: Pointing Aiken Fa up in partCombine

[David F.]

> On Aug 18, 2022, at 2:15 PM, Benjamin Bruce  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for digging into this for me. Yes, both cases are necessary for 
> typesetting shape note hymns, as illustrated by the attached scan. I believe 
> the rule for this is that the notehead should be pointed up in the treble 
> clef, and down in the bass clef.


Of the three hymnals that I have that use shaped notes, two do *not* reverse 
the Fa notehead in the treble clef—so Lilypond’s current output matches what 
those two hymnals do.

Since I primarily reference one of these hymnals for the engraving I do with 
Lilypond, I had never seen the behavior that you are describing until you 
pointed it out.

Now I’m wondering how representative those two hymnals are.

David

Re: completely filling a page, but not too compact, how?

[Ralph Palmer]

On Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 7:06 PM Kenneth Wolcott 
wrote:

> Maybe this engraved pdf is a better match to the Lilypond source...
>
> On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 4:02 PM Kenneth Wolcott
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi;
> >
> >   I have a piece of music that has forced line breaks that consumes
> three pages.
> >
> > I engraved the piece (without lyrics, which will come later) and it
> > looks so... sparse.
> >
> > So I disabled all the forced line breaks.
> >
> > Now it consumes less than 3/4 of one page and is a little too dense to
> > read on an iPad.
> >
> > I'd like to fill the first and only page.
> >
> > How to do this?
> >
> > I have attached the Lilypond source and my engraved pdf (the original
> > is huge as it is a three-page iPhone photo converted to pdf, so I
> > won't attach that unless it is requested).
> >
> > Lilypond 2.22.2 from homebrew, Mac M1, lilypond called without any
> > arguments/options.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ken Wolcott
>

> I'm away from my computer for a few weeks, so I can't be specific, but I
> use something like page-count = #1 in the /paper block, I think. Sorry I
> can't be more specific.


All the best,

Ralph

>

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Pierre-Luc Gauthier]

The LilyPond repository is the only one that I follow closely that
actually has (not quite but almost) daily updates anyway. I try to
keep up to date as to where it's going, how it works and who's
implicated (and in what capacity/portion). It is a big and complicated
project that seems to have a life of its own.

Le jeu. 18 août 2022, à 17 h 39, Jean Abou Samra  a écrit :
>
> Le 18/08/2022 à 21:30, Pierre-Luc Gauthier a écrit :
> > I also read "git log -p" on a daily basis.
>
>
> Just curious: are you really reading `git log -p` *on the LilyPond
> repository* on a daily basis? Or is this a general method to learn
> about software that you apply for various pieces of software on
> a daily basis?
>
> Jean
>
>


-- 
Pierre-Luc Gauthier

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le 18/08/2022 à 21:30, Pierre-Luc Gauthier a écrit :

I also read "git log -p" on a daily basis.



Just curious: are you really reading `git log -p` *on the LilyPond
repository* on a daily basis? Or is this a general method to learn
about software that you apply for various pieces of software on
a daily basis?

Jean

Re: Pointing Aiken Fa up in partCombine

[Benjamin Bruce]

Thanks for digging into this for me. Yes, both cases are necessary for 
typesetting shape note hymns, as illustrated by the attached scan. I believe 
the rule for this is that the notehead should be pointed up in the treble clef, 
and down in the bass clef.

Ipan ne 18 tonal tlen metstli 08 tlen xiwitl 2022, ipan 14:12 kawitl, Werner 
LEMBERG  kiihkwilo:
> 
> >>> \partCombine #'(1 . 1)
> >>>  { \aikenHeads f'2 } 
> >>>  { \aikenHeads f'2 }
> >> 
> >> This is an interesting problem.  LilyPond's Emmentaler font
> >> contains two shapes of this glyph, namely `noteheads.d1fa` and
> >> `noteheads.u1fa`, where the 'd' and 'u' stands for 'down' and 'up',
> >> respectively (you can see the glyphs in Appendix A.8 of the
> >> Notation Reference).  It seems that the part combine engine uses
> >> the 'down' version of the glyph if two voices fall together; AFAIK,
> >> this is an arbitrary choice without a possibility to adjust.
> > 
> > Looks like it’s not the part combiner, but the core note column
> > merging logic. See note-collision.cc.
> 
> Indeed, thanks!  There is the following code in function
> `check_meshing_chords`:
> 
> ```cpp
>   /* The solfa is a triangle, which is inverted depending on stem
>  direction.  In case of a collision, one of them should be removed,
>  so the resulting note does not look like a block.
>   */
>   SCM up_style = get_property (head_up, "style");
>   SCM down_style = get_property (head_down, "style");
>   if (merge_possible
>   && (scm_is_eq (up_style, ly_symbol2scm ("fa"))
>   || scm_is_eq (up_style, ly_symbol2scm ("faThin")))
>   && (scm_is_eq (down_style, ly_symbol2scm ("fa"))
>   || scm_is_eq (down_style, ly_symbol2scm ("faThin"
> {
>   Offset att = Offset (0.0, -1.0);
>   set_property (head_up, "stem-attachment", to_scm (att));
>   set_property (head_up, "transparent", SCM_BOOL_T);
> }
> ```
> 
> So the situation in question *is* handled, making the 'up' glyph
> disappear.  This can be easily changed to do the opposite.
> 
> Benjamin, do you have real-world examples that demonstrates such
> mergings for Aiken note heads?  Please provide scans if possible!  In
> particular it would be necessary to know whether the used note head
> for merged notes is always the same.
> 
> 
> Werner
> 

Re: convert-ly and lilypond-invoke-editor missing gettext

[Jonas Hahnfeld via LilyPond user discussion]

> Am Mittwoch, den 17. August 2022 um 13:13:44 Uhr (+0200) schrieb Orm 
> Finnendahl:
> > Hi,
> > 
> >  after upgrading from lilpond 2.19 to 2.23, lilypond-invoke-editor and
> > convert-ly stopped working.
> > 
> > In both cases I get
> > 
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "~/bin/../libexec/convert-ly", line 24, in 
> > import gettext
> > ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'gettext'
> > 
> > I installed python-gettext on my systemwide python installation but it
> > seems lilypond gets shipped with its own python3.10 binary and invokes
> > that.

Thanks for reporting. On my system, I see an error even earlier because
it cannot find the python3.10 binary. Did you move the libexec/
directory to where the wrapper script was looking for it?

On Wed, 2022-08-17 at 15:11 +0200, Orm Finnendahl wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>  I found the reason: In my installation the ~/bin folder was symlinked
> to the bin folder of the lilypond installation and that threw it
> off. The following change to the second line of the convert-ly and
> lilypond-invoke-editor scripts fixes it to facilitate symlinks:
> 
> change
> 
> root="$(dirname $0)"
> 
> to
> 
> root="$(dirname "$(readlink -f "$0")")/.."
> 
> That should be backwards compatible and work in any circumstance.

Unfortunately the -f flag is not defined by POSIX, so it won't work on
macOS. I'll look for a portable solution, in the meantime tracked as
https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/6406

Jonas


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Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Kenneth Wolcott]

HI Pierre-Luc;

  This is very nice, thank you.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 12:30 PM Pierre-Luc Gauthier
 wrote:
>
> Thanks Andrew for your input. I did write a few manuals (and still do)
> for some system usage and I know how hard it can be to cover all what
> a system can do and how to do it.
>
> For the record, I learned a *lot* reading all (most) of the change logs :
>
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/changes/
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/changes/
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/changes/
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/changes/
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/changes/new-features-in-2_002e16-since-2_002e14
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.14/Documentation/changes/
>
> I also read "git log -p" on a daily basis.
>
> Here are a few of my gotos might it help anyone :
>
> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/internals/all-layout-objects.html
> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/notation/lilypond-command-index
> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/notation/chord-name-chart.en.html
> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/notation/common-chord-modifiers.en.html
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/notation/percussion-notes.html
> http://fritz.rmi.de/dokumentation/lilypond/Documentation/user/lilypond/Chords-mode.html#Chords-mode
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/
>
> FWIW
> --
> Pierre-Luc Gauthier

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Pierre-Luc Gauthier]

Thanks Andrew for your input. I did write a few manuals (and still do)
for some system usage and I know how hard it can be to cover all what
a system can do and how to do it.

For the record, I learned a *lot* reading all (most) of the change logs :

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/changes/
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/changes/
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/changes/
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/changes/
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/changes/new-features-in-2_002e16-since-2_002e14
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.14/Documentation/changes/

I also read "git log -p" on a daily basis.

Here are a few of my gotos might it help anyone :

https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/internals/all-layout-objects.html
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/notation/lilypond-command-index
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/notation/chord-name-chart.en.html
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/notation/common-chord-modifiers.en.html
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/notation/percussion-notes.html
http://fritz.rmi.de/dokumentation/lilypond/Documentation/user/lilypond/Chords-mode.html#Chords-mode
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/

FWIW
--
Pierre-Luc Gauthier

Re: Pointing Aiken Fa up in partCombine

[Werner LEMBERG]

>>> \partCombine #'(1 . 1)
>>>  { \aikenHeads f'2 } 
>>>  { \aikenHeads f'2 }
>> 
>> This is an interesting problem.  LilyPond's Emmentaler font
>> contains two shapes of this glyph, namely `noteheads.d1fa` and
>> `noteheads.u1fa`, where the 'd' and 'u' stands for 'down' and 'up',
>> respectively (you can see the glyphs in Appendix A.8 of the
>> Notation Reference).  It seems that the part combine engine uses
>> the 'down' version of the glyph if two voices fall together; AFAIK,
>> this is an arbitrary choice without a possibility to adjust.
> 
> Looks like it’s not the part combiner, but the core note column
> merging logic. See note-collision.cc.

Indeed, thanks!  There is the following code in function
`check_meshing_chords`:

```cpp
  /* The solfa is a triangle, which is inverted depending on stem
 direction.  In case of a collision, one of them should be removed,
 so the resulting note does not look like a block.
  */
  SCM up_style = get_property (head_up, "style");
  SCM down_style = get_property (head_down, "style");
  if (merge_possible
  && (scm_is_eq (up_style, ly_symbol2scm ("fa"))
  || scm_is_eq (up_style, ly_symbol2scm ("faThin")))
  && (scm_is_eq (down_style, ly_symbol2scm ("fa"))
  || scm_is_eq (down_style, ly_symbol2scm ("faThin"
{
  Offset att = Offset (0.0, -1.0);
  set_property (head_up, "stem-attachment", to_scm (att));
  set_property (head_up, "transparent", SCM_BOOL_T);
}
```

So the situation in question *is* handled, making the 'up' glyph
disappear.  This can be easily changed to do the opposite.

Benjamin, do you have real-world examples that demonstrates such
mergings for Aiken note heads?  Please provide scans if possible!  In
particular it would be necessary to know whether the used note head
for merged notes is always the same.


Werner

Re: Pointing Aiken Fa up in partCombine

[Jean Abou Samra]

> Le 18 août 2022 à 18:09, Werner LEMBERG  a écrit :
> 
> 
>> 
>> \partCombine #'(1 . 1)
>>  { \aikenHeads f'2 } 
>>  { \aikenHeads f'2 }
> 
> This is an interesting problem.  LilyPond's Emmentaler font contains
> two shapes of this glyph, namely `noteheads.d1fa` and
> `noteheads.u1fa`, where the 'd' and 'u' stands for 'down' and 'up',
> respectively (you can see the glyphs in Appendix A.8 of the Notation
> Reference).  It seems that the part combine engine uses the 'down'
> version of the glyph if two voices fall together; AFAIK, this is an
> arbitrary choice without a possibility to adjust.
> 


Looks like it’s not the part combiner, but the core note column merging logic. 
See note-collision.cc.


> I have no idea how the part combiner works, but it shouldn't be too
> hard to add a property to select which shape should be used in this
> case.
> If my analysis is correct, I suggest to open an issue in our tracker.
> 
> 
>Werner

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Kenneth Wolcott]

Thank you, Aaron.  Yes, I found that Wikipedia entry at about the same
time that I first struggled with the tremolo.

It really comes back to being able to think and write fluently, doesn't it? :-)

Thanks to you all for your great support on this list.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 9:09 AM Aaron Hill  wrote:
>
> On 2022-08-18 8:49 am, Kenneth Wolcott wrote:
> > What even makes it more difficult is when I don't even know what
> > something is called at all (no terminology) and/or when I have no clue
> > how to succinctly describe what it is that I don't know.  For example,
> > the tremolo; I recognized the graphic but I had no way to search for
> > it by appearance, only read every line of the documentation until I
> > find it and the "ah ha".
>
> This is where I imagine the visual index is most helpful.  But I do
> wonder how often the Music Glossary is overlooked as a resource.  It
> includes pictures for entries; in this case, tremolo is represented.
> Going outside of LilyPond's manuals, Wikipedia has a good list [1].
>
> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols
>
>
> -- Aaron Hill

Re: 64-bit MacBook Air M2 problems

[Ian West]

Thanks gentlemen. You have been most helpful.
I am motoring with the 2.22.0 manual; so far everything is working. When it 
does not, I shall search out the 2.20 as you suggest.
I started to load Frescobaldi, and indeed downloaded 
MacPorts-2.7.2-12-Monterey.pkg. But could not face it. I have seen command line 
used, once, but would have to look up how to use it. Too much I fear.
Anyway, there is something very satisfying about the ‘longhand’ approach to 
writing music. I had one of the first copies of Sibelius sold (running on an 
Archimedes computer), but threw it and the Archimedes out and refused to buy 
another as the company would not credit me the £500 I had already spent. Made 
do with ABC,  Noteworthy and suchlike till I found Lilypond. They say it is not 
the arrival but the travelling, and I think it may apply here; but you know you 
are travelling when you get a score at the end. Compare a wordprocessor and 
setting type into a tray.
Viva Lilypond!
Best wishes, Ian West

---
Ian West
9 Thenford Road, Middleton Cheney,
BANBURY, OX17 2NB,
Tel: 01295 713 889; (Mobile: 07474 572 588)
==

> On 16 Aug 2022, at 21:41, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Le 16 août 2022 à 22:16, Ian West  a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>> I reset my laptop to abolish 'smart quotes' . Successful. But there must be 
>> other subtleties that are frustrating me.
> 
> 
> If you have issues, please tell what they are, or we cannot do anything to 
> help you :-)
> 
> Have you tried setting up Frescobaldi as I recommended?
> 
> 
>> Perhaps if I type the text with textedit, then copy and paste to feed it to 
>> Ly. Or just change the suffix from .txt to .ly?
>> 
>> It has proved impossible to find a manual for version 2.20.0. What is it 
>> that I am doing wrong?
> 
> 
> Take the 2.22 manual
> 
> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/notation/index.fr.html 
> 
> 
> and replace "2.22" in the URL with "2.20", giving
> 
> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/notation/index.fr.html 
> 
> 
> 
>> I am inclined to think that, if Google cannot find it, then it does not 
>> exist. I do not know which would be better: use 2.18.x or 2.22.x?
> 
> 
> In theory, 2.22.x, which is the latest stable version, but to my knowledge 
> you won’t find a macOS 64-bit download for it like the unofficial bundle of 
> LilyPond 2.20. You have to use either MacPorts or HomeBrew, which are package 
> managers for macOS. If you don’t know how to use the command line or what it 
> even is, this is not recommended. Instead, use 2.23, which while being a 
> development release series is quite stable currently, and has official macOS 
> 64-bit binaries.
> 
> Best,
> Jean
> 
> 
> 
>> Ian West
>> 
>> 
>>> On 16 Aug 2022, at 11:08, Ian West >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks Hans, and Jean.
>>> I shall try and learn up those tricks. 
>>> Ian
>>> 
>>> ==
 On 15 Aug 2022, at 17:01, Hans Åberg >>> > wrote:
 
 
> On 15 Aug 2022, at 17:57, Jean Abou Samra  > wrote:
> 
> Also, when you enter the apostrophe from the keyboard, is it really
> a straight apostrophe  ->   '   <-  or could it be that macOS does
> you the “favor” to replace it with a curly apostrophe ->’ <- ?
> LilyPond expects straight apostrophes. If this is the problem, you need
> to fix your macOS settings somewhere to prevent those “smart quotes”.
 
 One can turn those off at System Preferences → Keyboard → Text → Use smart 
 quotes and dashes. Those are reachable at least from the keyboard map I am 
 using, so I decided to type them by hand at need.
 
 Also, one can add custom text replacements, which I use for example for 
 the arrows above.
 
 
>>> 
>> 

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Kenneth Wolcott]

AWESOME!

On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 9:14 AM Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
>
>
> > What even makes it more difficult is when I don't even know what
> > something is called at all (no terminology) and/or when I have no
> > clue how to succinctly describe what it is that I don't know.  For
> > example, the tremolo; I recognized the graphic but I had no way to
> > search for it by appearance, only read every line of the
> > documentation until I find it and the "ah ha".
>
> I think you are looking for the 'Visual LilyPond Grob Index':
>
>   https://github.com/joram-berger/visualindex
>
> This gives you the name of the grob, which you can then use for a
> search in the Notation Reference.
>
> Eventually this will become part of the LilyPond documentation.
>
>
>  Werner

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Werner LEMBERG]

> What even makes it more difficult is when I don't even know what
> something is called at all (no terminology) and/or when I have no
> clue how to succinctly describe what it is that I don't know.  For
> example, the tremolo; I recognized the graphic but I had no way to
> search for it by appearance, only read every line of the
> documentation until I find it and the "ah ha".

I think you are looking for the 'Visual LilyPond Grob Index':

  https://github.com/joram-berger/visualindex

This gives you the name of the grob, which you can then use for a
search in the Notation Reference.

Eventually this will become part of the LilyPond documentation.


 Werner

Re: Pointing Aiken Fa up in partCombine

[Werner LEMBERG]

> \partCombine #'(1 . 1)
>   { \aikenHeads f'2 } 
>   { \aikenHeads f'2 }

This is an interesting problem.  LilyPond's Emmentaler font contains
two shapes of this glyph, namely `noteheads.d1fa` and
`noteheads.u1fa`, where the 'd' and 'u' stands for 'down' and 'up',
respectively (you can see the glyphs in Appendix A.8 of the Notation
Reference).  It seems that the part combine engine uses the 'down'
version of the glyph if two voices fall together; AFAIK, this is an
arbitrary choice without a possibility to adjust.

I have no idea how the part combiner works, but it shouldn't be too
hard to add a property to select which shape should be used in this
case.

If my analysis is correct, I suggest to open an issue in our tracker.


Werner

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Aaron Hill]

On 2022-08-18 8:49 am, Kenneth Wolcott wrote:

What even makes it more difficult is when I don't even know what
something is called at all (no terminology) and/or when I have no clue
how to succinctly describe what it is that I don't know.  For example,
the tremolo; I recognized the graphic but I had no way to search for
it by appearance, only read every line of the documentation until I
find it and the "ah ha".


This is where I imagine the visual index is most helpful.  But I do 
wonder how often the Music Glossary is overlooked as a resource.  It 
includes pictures for entries; in this case, tremolo is represented.  
Going outside of LilyPond's manuals, Wikipedia has a good list [1].


[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols


-- Aaron Hill

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Kenneth Wolcott]

Thank you all for your commentary on my question.

I think there are some very nice responses here that give me some perspective.

What even makes it more difficult is when I don't even know what
something is called at all (no terminology) and/or when I have no clue
how to succinctly describe what it is that I don't know.  For example,
the tremolo; I recognized the graphic but I had no way to search for
it by appearance, only read every line of the documentation until I
find it and the "ah ha".

  I'm making no complaint about the quality of the documentation; I
think it is excellent.

In addition, the developers and those who assist on this list are
awesome people.

I need to ponder these responses further to figure out what I can do
not only to further my Lilypond education but also try to give back to
the community.

Thank you,
Ken

On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 6:11 AM Karlin High  wrote:
>
> On 8/18/2022 5:48 AM, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> > Every layman seems to have a
> > different 'layman's term' for things, some of which are true
> > alternatives and some of which are just plain wrong.
>
> Doing residential tech support, I will never forget the man who referred
> to the desktop background picture as "the screen saver." Or the lady,
> may she rest in peace, whose term for all forms of email was "Outlook
> Express."
>
> > I don't think, as you say, your question is dumb, and in no way intend
> > to diminish it with my comments. I just think this is what I call a
> > 'hard problem.'
>
> I agree, and appreciate the effort you put into writing that.
>
> I second Jean Abou Samra's motion for expanding the index if it seems
> good to so so.
>
> Lilypond.org is hosted on a Google service, I believe? Are there ways to
> see what search terms people use to arrive at given documentation resources?
>
> If there are recognizable patterns, like there's this one word people
> follow over and over again to a manual page mostly using unlike terms,
> maybe that could be seen as a call to add an index entry.
> --
> Karlin High
> Missouri, USA
>

Re: Pointing Aiken Fa up in partCombine

[Benjamin Bruce]

Thank you for your reply. Here is my tiny example with two stems:

\partCombine #'(1 . 1)
  { \aikenHeads f'2 } 
  { \aikenHeads f'2 }

I am attaching an image to illustrate what I am trying to do. If that doesn't 
go through I will try with a link.

Ipan ne 18 tonal tlen metstli 08 tlen xiwitl 2022, ipan 09:48 kawitl, Jean Abou 
Samra  kiihkwilo:
> Le 15/08/2022 à 21:04, Benjamin Bruce a écrit :
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I feel like there should be a simple answer to this question, but I 
> > can't figure it out.  I am using Lilypond 2.22.
> >
> > My setup is Aiken shape notes, with two voices combined using 
> > partCombine. In one place, both the voices have the same note, which 
> > is a half-note Fa (right triangle). Since it is the same note, the 
> > output has two stems, one pointing up and one pointing down.
> >
> > The issue is that the Fa triangle is arranged with one side stuck to 
> > the downward pointing stem, whereas I want that side to stick to the 
> > upward pointing stem. In other words, I want to rotate the notehead 180º.
> >
> > Does that make sense? Thanks in advance for your help.
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding your problem. When using \partCombine, 
> normally notes at the same pitch will be merged and have one single stem.
> 
> \partCombine { f'2 } { f'2 }
> 
> In general, it is much easier to understand a problem from an example. 
> See https://lilypond.org/tiny-examples.html
> 
> Thanks,
> Jean
> 
> 

Re: Pointing Aiken Fa up in partCombine

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le 15/08/2022 à 21:04, Benjamin Bruce a écrit :

Hello all,

I feel like there should be a simple answer to this question, but I 
can't figure it out.  I am using Lilypond 2.22.


My setup is Aiken shape notes, with two voices combined using 
partCombine. In one place, both the voices have the same note, which 
is a half-note Fa (right triangle). Since it is the same note, the 
output has two stems, one pointing up and one pointing down.


The issue is that the Fa triangle is arranged with one side stuck to 
the downward pointing stem, whereas I want that side to stick to the 
upward pointing stem. In other words, I want to rotate the notehead 180º.


Does that make sense? Thanks in advance for your help.



Hello,

I'm having trouble understanding your problem. When using \partCombine, 
normally notes at the same pitch will be merged and have one single stem.


\partCombine { f'2 } { f'2 }

In general, it is much easier to understand a problem from an example. 
See https://lilypond.org/tiny-examples.html


Thanks,
Jean

Re: ragged-right and \rhythm

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le 18/08/2022 à 10:58, Lukas-Fabian Moser a écrit :

Hi Jean,

Am 17.08.22 um 15:14 schrieb Jean Abou Samra:

Looking at the Constrained_breaking class, I think just setting
ragged-right = ##t in \rhythm should be OK. Alternatively, if you
feel like it, introduce a variant of Paper_score::get_paper_systems
/ ly:paper-score-paper-systems (the function used by \markup \score)
that does not run Constrained_breaking but just spaces everything
on one line. (It does sound more complicated, although perhaps more
elegant.)

Should I leave it to you to create an issue and MR?


I can try this. Is it necessary to first create an issue (I assume for 
keeping track of the "motivation" for the MR)?




It's not strictly necessary, but with the current developers, most of
the time it is done. From my point of view, the main advantage is
that if your proposed solution is found to have a flaw and stalls,
the issue will remain open. Also, we tell people to search the tracker
before reporting a bug, and when creating a new issue, GitLab
will display "similar issues", including closed issues, to help
avoiding duplicates, so it could avoid someone reporting the same
problem while waiting for the 2.23.12 release or from someone
who didn't upgrade.




But if I am to take the route of messing with get_paper_systems etc. 
I'm probably going to need some help or at least bother everybody with 
questions.



OK, I looked at this code again, and I'm no longer convinced that
going this route would have a clarity advantage. Forget about it,
sorry.

Jean

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Karlin High]

On 8/18/2022 5:48 AM, Andrew Bernard wrote:
Every layman seems to have a 
different 'layman's term' for things, some of which are true 
alternatives and some of which are just plain wrong.


Doing residential tech support, I will never forget the man who referred 
to the desktop background picture as "the screen saver." Or the lady, 
may she rest in peace, whose term for all forms of email was "Outlook 
Express."


I don't think, as you say, your question is dumb, and in no way intend 
to diminish it with my comments. I just think this is what I call a 
'hard problem.'


I agree, and appreciate the effort you put into writing that.

I second Jean Abou Samra's motion for expanding the index if it seems 
good to so so.


Lilypond.org is hosted on a Google service, I believe? Are there ways to 
see what search terms people use to arrive at given documentation resources?


If there are recognizable patterns, like there's this one word people 
follow over and over again to a manual page mostly using unlike terms, 
maybe that could be seen as a call to add an index entry.

--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

Re: 64-bit MacBook Air M2 problems

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le 18/08/2022 à 14:18, Ian West a écrit :

Thanks gentlemen. You have been most helpful.

  * I am motoring with the 2.22.0 manual; so far everything is
working. When it does not, I shall search out the 2.20 as you suggest.
  * I started to load Frescobaldi, and indeed downloaded
MacPorts-2.7.2-12-Monterey.pkg. But could not face it. I have seen
command line used, once, but would have to look up how to use it.
Too much I fear.




You don't know to know how to use the command line in order to use
the .pkg installer. Quoting the tutorial: “In the Finder, double-click
on the file to run the installer.” It's as simple as that :-)

Best,
Jean

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Andrew Bernard]

Hello Ken,

I also use Dorico, which currently has a 1720 page PDF manual. If I may 
make a few comments. There's an active Steinberg Dorico forum. It's 
continuously full of complaints about using the manual. It's also full 
of complaints saying Dorico is not 'intuitive'. Finally somewhat annoyed 
by this Iast week I started a topic about the term intuitive as applied 
to software, linking to a very good short essay on the subject by one of 
the developers of Ardour. What people seem to mean by 'not intuitive' is 
that they actually have to make some effort to learn an immensely 
powerful and rich program.


Now, this thread got hijacked into endless complaints from users saying 
they can't find what they want in the manual, and dozens of different 
reasons given. Some want an index with dozens of synonyms for terms so 
they can 'find things'. Others don't like the structure of the manual at 
all. Some are offended that the manual explains things that any educated 
musician obviously knows. Some are offended and upset that the manual 
does not cover every single possible use case for a vast engraving 
program. It goes on and on. The manual is written by one dedicated full 
time staff member. It's an amazing effort. I think it is truly 
remarkable as documentation, yet when it does not conform to what a user 
expects. they whine on the forum.


Why am I telling this? Because it highlights the problem with software 
manuals. They are _never_  going to satisfy everybody, partly because 
people are at all different levels of musical/engraving experience, and 
it is impossible to have a single document target all levels of user at 
once.


To address this common issue back in the days when people read books, 
there was a publisher that made a series called 'The Missing Manual'. 
These books were great - the had a lot of material not in the basic 
documentation, and I think that was a good idea.


So the problem with your present suggestion is this, based on my 
experience with Dorico and the complaints. Every layman seems to have a 
different 'layman's term' for things, some of which are true 
alternatives and some of which are just plain wrong. There's an infinity 
of layman's terms, and no matter how diligent you are you will be 
forever adding more. An endless job. Sure adding some may be good, but I 
think this project is fraught with difficulties. For example, as 
somebody who sets a lot of modernist music, I'd be asking questions like 
'can Lilypond do beams on a single note that extended across several 
pages indicting duration?'. That's probably not the sort of question you 
could come up with on your own. And so on for a hundred other things 
about modernist music engraving.


Lilypond has good documentations. The concept of a good tutorial 
introduction combined with a Notation Reference Manual I believe works 
well. Remember the NR is a reference not a guide. It's identical to the 
UNIX manual. which is pure reference - always has been.


Make no mistake, I don't think this is a bad idea, I just think its 
problematic, you will have to deal with complaints forever, and it 
requires a lot of resources to compile and maintain, which is something 
the Lilypond dev community does not really have. There's also the 
problem of maintaining this in many languages.


My answer to this is unpopular, of course. With complex programs there 
is no substitute for dong the hard yards and just reading the manual all 
the way through, over and over, regularly. That's how I learned UNIX, 
and that's how I learned Lilypond. I know from the Dorico forum people 
don't like to do this hard work nowadays, expecting instant answers to 
everything. In addition to this, the superbly helpful user list here 
serves as the missing manual when you hit problems or fail to grasp a 
concept.


Finally, there has never been a Lilypond book. That would help a lot, 
but a huge proposition. Also, Scheme is a stumbling block for many, as 
laypeople don't know it and even many programmers have not been 
introduced to it. There are a couple of Lilypond Scheme tutorials, and 
with no disrespect to the authors, they are only the tip of the iceberg. 
That in itself is a big area of Lilypond, as one the principal virtues 
of Lilypond is it's extensibility, which differentiates it from programs 
like Dorico. So more Scheme information as it relates to Lilypond would 
have to be included I reckon.


I don't think, as you say, your question is dumb, and in no way intend 
to diminish it with my comments. I just think this is what I call a 
'hard problem.'



Andrew


On 18/08/2022 12:16 pm, Kenneth Wolcott wrote:

Hi;

Dumb documentation question here:

Kind of like a FAQ but also kind of like an index.

So this would be a "translation" of layman's terms to
Lilypond/professional terminology and an index; it could even point to
existing indices (in Notation) and/or the Glossary.

Q: Does Lilypond do X (layman's term/phrase)?
A: Yes, and this is 

Re: [was: Re: ANN: Frescobaldi 3.2]

[Davide Liessi]

Dear Jean Louis,

I agree with Jean-Julien's message.
I just want to add a couple of points.

Il giorno gio 18 ago 2022 alle ore 03:10 Jean Louis THIRY
 ha scritto:
> I think I have made quite a bit of progress in the great forest of my 
> ignorance. I took your advice first and installed Macport 
> (https://www.macports.org/install.php) and invoked "sudo port install 
> frescobaldi". Installation stopped when asked to install Xcode. It took me 
> trying to figure out what Xcode was for and finding the huge 
> "Xcode_11.3.1.xip" file and installing it.

The page you link (https://www.macports.org/install.php) has a
step-by-step installation guide, including the instructions to get
Xcode and the Command Line Tools.

> is it possible to uninstall Frescobaldi using some magic formula like "sudo 
> port uninstall frescobaldi" and do an install again so that the installer 
> finds the sdk file.

I agree with Jean-Julien that uninstalling Frescobaldi should not be necessary.
Anyway, if you have doubts on using MacPorts, please see the guide at
https://guide.macports.org

It seems to me that now your immediate problems are solved.
If that's not true or if anything else arises you can write to either
the LilyPond or the Frescobaldi list.
I admit I tend to disappear for long periods (due to personal and
professional reasons) and I'm very sorry for that: if that happens you
can write to me directly to get my attention.

Best wishes.
Davide

Re: [was: Re: ANN: Frescobaldi 3.2]

[Davide Liessi]

Il giorno gio 18 ago 2022 alle ore 11:48 Jean Louis THIRY
 ha scritto:
> Being on Mojave (10.14)

This explains also why you were not hit by the 'use_xcode' problem,
since it does not affect 10.13 and 10.14.

> Everything around qt5 seems to be a weak point of Frescobaldi,

Indeed: I appreciate greatly that it is easy to build applications
with Qt and Python, but the combination makes distributing the
software for Mac a nightmare.

The prebuilt application (not yet available for Frescobaldi 3.2 due to
personal reasons) cannot include the documentation browser and the SVG
viewer because packaging some components of Qt with Python is
impossible on Mac.
I asked for help on the PyQt mailing list a couple of times and got no answer.
If anyone is interested, details can be found at
https://github.com/frescobaldi/frescobaldi/issues/1244

Best wishes.
Davide

Re: [was: Re: ANN: Frescobaldi 3.2]

[Davide Liessi]

Dear Jean-Julien,

Il giorno gio 18 ago 2022 alle ore 08:52 Jean-Julien Fleck
 ha scritto:
> Well, it’s unlikely. I happen to have frescobaldi installed via a fresh new 
> MacPort procedure (after upgrading to MacOs Monterey) just last week and the 
> missing sdk message I encountered was related to all the qt5 stuff that 
> frescobaldi needed in order to be built. You were lucky it was not a stopper 
> as it was in my case: I had to manually add `use_xcode yes` in the 
> corresponding PortFile of py310-poppler-qt5 in order to make it build 
> properly. Perhaps it has since been corrected so that if the «standard» way 
> for qt5 to find the sdk won't work, they try the `use_xcode yes` trick 
> (whatever it does) before giving up.

I have just opened a PR at MacPorts with the fix:
https://github.com/macports/macports-ports/pull/15773

Best wishes.
Davide

Re: [was: Re: ANN: Frescobaldi 3.2]

[Jean Louis THIRY]

Hello friends,

> Le 18 août 2022 à 09:16, Jacques Menu  a écrit :

> I’ve never heard about Xcode_11.3.1.xip.
> The simple way to install Xcode is to take it from the App Store (needs about 
> 50 Mb these days).

That's what I was thinking of doing, but on the app store you can only find the 
version compatible with the latest Mac OS (Monterey) and it requires a dozen 
Mb. Being on Mojave (10.14) it was necessary to find on the Apple site the 
version which goes well https://developer.apple.com/download/all/. There Xcode 
is 7.82 Gb and takes very very long to install.
Installing the MacOSX10.14.sdk file is endless too. too.

Finally the "standalone" applications are not so bad



> 
>> Le 18 août 2022 à 08:48, Jean-Julien Fleck  a 
>> écrit :
>> 
>> I have a question about the installation. Could this erratic behavior be a 
>> result of this .sdk file being installed in the wrong order? is it possible 
>> to uninstall Frescobaldi using some magic formula like "sudo port uninstall 
>> frescobaldi" and do an install again so that the installer finds the sdk 
>> file. Especially will there be a difference. Just an idea...
>> 
>> Well, it’s unlikely. I happen to have frescobaldi installed via a fresh new 
>> MacPort procedure (after upgrading to MacOs Monterey) just last week and the 
>> missing sdk message I encountered was related to all the qt5 stuff that 
>> frescobaldi needed in order to be built. You were lucky it was not a stopper 
>> as it was in my case: I had to manually add `use_xcode yes`

There, I would not have been able to add this kind of comment

>> in the corresponding PortFile of py310-poppler-qt5 in order to make it build 
>> properly. Perhaps it has since been corrected so that if the «standard» way 
>> for qt5 to find the sdk won't work, they try the `use_xcode yes` trick 
>> (whatever it does) before giving up.

Everything around qt5 seems to be a weak point of Frescobaldi, since it was 
also this qt bug that was preventing Frescobaldi 3.1 from installing on my Mac.
>> 
>> All these problems, even if triggered during frescobaldi install, are 
>> unrelated to it. That's just the way Macport is doing the job: whenever you 
>> add a package to MacPort, it asks you what should be present on the machine 
>> to make your app work and then try to install it by itself, saving the user 
>> the trouble to install all the extensions and preventing multiple installs 
>> of the same tools whenever two different packages need the same first 
>> building block.
>> 
>> But as a matter of fact, it won't help to uninstall frescobaldi to try to 
>> correct for lilypond path (as for one reason is that MacPort don't throw 
>> away uninstalled port but keep them somewhere, ready to reinstall it without 
>> further building in case you change your mind). I would rather suspect that 
>> the search for different lilypond locations was done after you first looked 
>> there (perhaps triggered by one of your tinkering), was written down 
>> somewhere so that the next frescobaldi startup shows it.

This answers my question exactly, even though I suspected it a bit.

>> 
>> Happy that you finally managed to get it work and have fun coding with lily 
>> on frescobaldi !

With a good bit of luck, Thank you
>> 

Re: ragged-right and \rhythm

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

I can try this. Is it necessary to first create an issue (I assume for 
keeping track of the "motivation" for the MR)?


But if I am to take the route of messing with get_paper_systems etc. 
I'm probably going to need some help or at least bother everybody with 
questions.


... and here we go with the questions: Do we not have this already, by 
way of issuing \layout { system-count = 1 } inside \markup \score ?


Lukas

Re: ragged-right and \rhythm

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Hi Jean,

Am 17.08.22 um 15:14 schrieb Jean Abou Samra:

Looking at the Constrained_breaking class, I think just setting
ragged-right = ##t in \rhythm should be OK. Alternatively, if you
feel like it, introduce a variant of Paper_score::get_paper_systems
/ ly:paper-score-paper-systems (the function used by \markup \score)
that does not run Constrained_breaking but just spaces everything
on one line. (It does sound more complicated, although perhaps more
elegant.)

Should I leave it to you to create an issue and MR?


I can try this. Is it necessary to first create an issue (I assume for 
keeping track of the "motivation" for the MR)?


But if I am to take the route of messing with get_paper_systems etc. I'm 
probably going to need some help or at least bother everybody with 
questions.


Lukas

Re: Why not have a Lilypond documentation set arranged as layman's Q: does LP do this?

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le 18/08/2022 à 04:16, Kenneth Wolcott a écrit :

Hi;

Dumb documentation question here:

Kind of like a FAQ but also kind of like an index.

So this would be a "translation" of layman's terms to
Lilypond/professional terminology and an index; it could even point to
existing indices (in Notation) and/or the Glossary.

Q: Does Lilypond do X (layman's term/phrase)?
A: Yes, and this is the Lilypond description/verbiage/etc...
see Learning (precise section URL);
see Notation  (precise section URL);
   etc (Glossary, Snippets)

Now, if I didn't have the correct terminology, I could still obtain
what I was looking for.

Also, if the grouping or categorization of the concept is not where I
would expect it, I might not know where to find it.  A text based
search of the HTML or PDF either does not result in any hits, or
incorrect hits or too many hits; this is very frustrating.  The
Lilypond documentation is EXCELLENT, but I think that this might be
helpful for some people.

Example:

Q. Does Lilypond generate MIDI for articulations/ornaments (such as
mordant, prall, arpeggios)?
A. Yes/No; see articulate feature description.

I think that this might help people who aren't high-level musicians
and/or high-level engravers navigate the excellent Lilypond
documentation.

Now, I'd be willing to assist  with a very simple beginning of this
Q/FAQ from a layman's perspective, perhaps on a text basis, using
some of my own questions on this mailing list with some of the answers
I've received.

Is this a useful idea?  Is it redundant/superfluous? It looks like a
lot of work to gather the info and implement within the documentation
format, but I'd be willing to try to add some value in my limited
knowledge.


To me, this sounds relatively similar to the index we already
have.

https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/notation/lilypond-index.html

There are all the technical terms, but we do try to add entries with
layman's terms as well.

Instead of starting something else, I would recommend investing work
into enriching this existing index so it contains more entries with
less technical vocabulary.

Best,
Jean

Re: [was: Re: ANN: Frescobaldi 3.2]

[Jacques Menu]

Hello Folks,

I’ve never heard about Xcode_11.3.1.xip.
The simple way to install Xcode is to take it from the App Store (needs about 
50 Mb these days).

JM

> Le 18 août 2022 à 08:48, Jean-Julien Fleck  a 
> écrit :
> 
> Hello Jean-Louis,
> 
> Le jeu. 18 août 2022 à 03:10, Jean Louis THIRY  a écrit :
> 
> I have a question about the installation. Could this erratic behavior be a 
> result of this .sdk file being installed in the wrong order? is it possible 
> to uninstall Frescobaldi using some magic formula like "sudo port uninstall 
> frescobaldi" and do an install again so that the installer finds the sdk 
> file. Especially will there be a difference. Just an idea...
> 
> Well, it’s unlikely. I happen to have frescobaldi installed via a fresh new 
> MacPort procedure (after upgrading to MacOs Monterey) just last week and the 
> missing sdk message I encountered was related to all the qt5 stuff that 
> frescobaldi needed in order to be built. You were lucky it was not a stopper 
> as it was in my case: I had to manually add `use_xcode yes` in the 
> corresponding PortFile of py310-poppler-qt5 in order to make it build 
> properly. Perhaps it has since been corrected so that if the «standard» way 
> for qt5 to find the sdk won't work, they try the `use_xcode yes` trick 
> (whatever it does) before giving up.
> 
> All these problems, even if triggered during frescobaldi install, are 
> unrelated to it. That's just the way Macport is doing the job: whenever you 
> add a package to MacPort, it asks you what should be present on the machine 
> to make your app work and then try to install it by itself, saving the user 
> the trouble to install all the extensions and preventing multiple installs of 
> the same tools whenever two different packages need the same first building 
> block.
> 
> But as a matter of fact, it won't help to uninstall frescobaldi to try to 
> correct for lilypond path (as for one reason is that MacPort don't throw away 
> uninstalled port but keep them somewhere, ready to reinstall it without 
> further building in case you change your mind). I would rather suspect that 
> the search for different lilypond locations was done after you first looked 
> there (perhaps triggered by one of your tinkering), was written down 
> somewhere so that the next frescobaldi startup shows it.
> 
> Happy that you finally managed to get it work and have fun coding with lily 
> on frescobaldi !
> 
> -- 
> JJ Fleck
> Physique et Informatique
> PCSI1 Lycée Kléber

Re: [was: Re: ANN: Frescobaldi 3.2]

[Jean-Julien Fleck]

Hello Jean-Louis,

Le jeu. 18 août 2022 à 03:10, Jean Louis THIRY  a
écrit :

>
> I have a question about the installation. Could this erratic behavior be a
> result of this .sdk file being installed in the wrong order? is it possible
> to uninstall Frescobaldi using some magic formula like "sudo port uninstall
> frescobaldi" and do an install again so that the installer finds the sdk
> file. Especially will there be a difference. Just an idea...
>

Well, it’s unlikely. I happen to have frescobaldi installed via a fresh new
MacPort procedure (after upgrading to MacOs Monterey) just last week and
the missing sdk message I encountered was related to all the qt5 stuff that
frescobaldi needed in order to be built. You were lucky it was not a
stopper as it was in my case: I had to manually add `use_xcode yes` in the
corresponding PortFile of py310-poppler-qt5 in order to make it build
properly. Perhaps it has since been corrected so that if the «standard» way
for qt5 to find the sdk won't work, they try the `use_xcode yes` trick
(whatever it does) before giving up.

All these problems, even if triggered during frescobaldi install, are
unrelated to it. That's just the way Macport is doing the job: whenever you
add a package to MacPort, it asks you what should be present on the machine
to make your app work and then try to install it by itself, saving the user
the trouble to install all the extensions and preventing multiple installs
of the same tools whenever two different packages need the same first
building block.

But as a matter of fact, it won't help to uninstall frescobaldi to try to
correct for lilypond path (as for one reason is that MacPort don't throw
away uninstalled port but keep them somewhere, ready to reinstall
it without further building in case you change your mind). I would rather
suspect that the search for different lilypond locations was done after you
first looked there (perhaps triggered by one of your tinkering), was
written down somewhere so that the next frescobaldi startup shows it.

Happy that you finally managed to get it work and have fun coding with lily
on frescobaldi !

-- 
JJ Fleck
Physique et Informatique
PCSI1 Lycée Kléber