Re: Manually control note spacing?

[Robert Hickman]

This is great, thank you so much!

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 at 15:53, Kieren MacMillan
 wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> > Don't worry, found out how to do it:
> >
> > \version "2.18.2"
> > \header {tagline = ""}
> > {
> >\numericTimeSignature
> >\textLengthOn
> >\override Staff.padding = #3
> >\time 4/4
> >a'4\mordent -\tweak staff-padding #4 ^"Mordent"
> >a'4\upmordent -\tweak staff-padding #4 ^"Upper Mordent"
> >   a'4\downmordent -\tweak staff-padding #4 ^"Lower Mordent"
> > }
>
> I don’t think the \override is doing what you think/hope it’s doing…?
>
> Anyway, while the \tweak approach does the job, this might be more efficient:
>
> \version "2.18.2"
>
> \header {
>   tagline = ##f
> }
>
> {
>\numericTimeSignature
>\textLengthOn
>\override TextScript.staff-padding = #4
>\time 4/4
>a'4\mordent ^"Mordent"
>a'4\upmordent ^"Upper Mordent"
>a'4\downmordent ^"Lower Mordent"
> }
>
> Note also that I changed your tagline = "" to tagline = ##f, so that it truly 
> takes up no space.
>
> Hope this helps!
> Kieren.

Re: Manually control note spacing?

[Robert Hickman]

Don't worry, found out how to do it:

\version "2.18.2"

\header {tagline = ""}
{
\numericTimeSignature
\textLengthOn
\override Staff.padding = #3
\time 4/4
a'4\mordent -\tweak staff-padding #4 ^"Mordent"
a'4\upmordent -\tweak staff-padding #4 ^"Upper Mordent"
   a'4\downmordent -\tweak staff-padding #4 ^"Lower Mordent"
}

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 at 15:35, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>
> Hi Phill, that mostly works, thank you for your help. However the text
> isn't vertically aligned, and the text blocks are too close together.
> The documentation mentions 'staff-padding' in regards to the first
> issues, but doesn't say how to actually set that.  'Neither
> Staff.padding' or 'Text.padding' do anything. 'Script.padding' also
> changes the placement of the articulation symbols.
>
> \version "2.18.2"
>
> \header {tagline = ""}
> {
> \numericTimeSignature
> \textLengthOn
> \override Text.padding = #3
> \time 4/4
> a'4\mordent^"Mordent"
> a'4\upmordent^"Upper Mordent"
>a'4\downmordent^"Lower Mordent"
> }
>
> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 at 15:02, Phil Holmes  wrote:
> >
> > Checkout \textLengthOn and see if it does what you want.
> >
> > On 05/01/2024 14:50, Robert Hickman wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I'm trying to make an example showing mordent symbols with text
> > > labels. I want the note positions spaced so that the text is all on
> > > one line, with notes placed as needed to fit around it.
> > >
> > > The easiest way I can think of doing that would be to put manually
> > > sized 'gap fillers' between the notes which is something I often do in
> > > LaTeX, but I can't find any way of doing that in lilypond - it only
> > > seems possible to change spacing globally?
> > >
> > > \version "2.18.2"
> > >
> > > \header {tagline = ""}
> > > {
> > >  \numericTimeSignature
> > >  \time 4/4
> > >  a'4\mordent^"Mordent"
> > >  a'4\upmordent^"Upper Mordent"
> > > a'4\downmordent^"Lower Mordent"
> > > }
> > >
> > >
> >

Re: Manually control note spacing?

[Robert Hickman]

Hi Phill, that mostly works, thank you for your help. However the text
isn't vertically aligned, and the text blocks are too close together.
The documentation mentions 'staff-padding' in regards to the first
issues, but doesn't say how to actually set that.  'Neither
Staff.padding' or 'Text.padding' do anything. 'Script.padding' also
changes the placement of the articulation symbols.

\version "2.18.2"

\header {tagline = ""}
{
\numericTimeSignature
\textLengthOn
\override Text.padding = #3
\time 4/4
a'4\mordent^"Mordent"
a'4\upmordent^"Upper Mordent"
   a'4\downmordent^"Lower Mordent"
}

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 at 15:02, Phil Holmes  wrote:
>
> Checkout \textLengthOn and see if it does what you want.
>
> On 05/01/2024 14:50, Robert Hickman wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm trying to make an example showing mordent symbols with text
> > labels. I want the note positions spaced so that the text is all on
> > one line, with notes placed as needed to fit around it.
> >
> > The easiest way I can think of doing that would be to put manually
> > sized 'gap fillers' between the notes which is something I often do in
> > LaTeX, but I can't find any way of doing that in lilypond - it only
> > seems possible to change spacing globally?
> >
> > \version "2.18.2"
> >
> > \header {tagline = ""}
> > {
> >  \numericTimeSignature
> >  \time 4/4
> >  a'4\mordent^"Mordent"
> >  a'4\upmordent^"Upper Mordent"
> > a'4\downmordent^"Lower Mordent"
> > }
> >
> >
>

Manually control note spacing?

[Robert Hickman]

Hi,

I'm trying to make an example showing mordent symbols with text
labels. I want the note positions spaced so that the text is all on
one line, with notes placed as needed to fit around it.

The easiest way I can think of doing that would be to put manually
sized 'gap fillers' between the notes which is something I often do in
LaTeX, but I can't find any way of doing that in lilypond - it only
seems possible to change spacing globally?

\version "2.18.2"

\header {tagline = ""}
{
\numericTimeSignature
\time 4/4
a'4\mordent^"Mordent"
a'4\upmordent^"Upper Mordent"
   a'4\downmordent^"Lower Mordent"
}

Re: What's causing this extra bar line and empty bar?

[Robert Hickman]

Updating to the latest version fixed the issue, and also the unwanted
extra space. Problem was just Debian shipping a very old version for
some reason.

Thank you for your help.

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 at 00:12, William Rehwinkel
 wrote:
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> in the future, please take care that the minimal working example does
> not contain any undefined symbols that cause errors. Here, simply adding
> "strike = \fermata" at the beginning of the file alleviated all these
> errors, however.
>
> After using convert-ly and rendering (using version 2.25.7) this extra
> barline doesn't appear. Can you try updating to the most recent version
> of lilypond (.24 or .25), and see if that helps?
>
> Thanks,
> -William
>
> On 11/19/23 19:00, Robert Hickman wrote:
> > Hi people. I'm trying to reproduce the formatting from a tune that
> > started out in ABC notation, which is formatted with line breaks
> > around phrases instead of bars. It is working as intended, except for
> > an empty bar that's showing up after the first repeat sign, and I have
> > no idea what's causing it. Also there's extra space being added before
> > the other line breaks as well:
> >
> > https://pureocarinas.com/res/lilypond/aikendrumnotation_0c01fcb19c471b86d2ab94badb4b7de55b3660f2.png
> >
> > The following is how it should be formatted (generated by ABCM2PS).
> >
> > https://pureocarinas.com/res/abc_converter/aikendrumnotation_0c01fcb19c471b86d2ab94badb4b7de55b3660f2.png
> >
> > And here's the code, without the definition of the \strike articulation 
> > symbol.
> >
> > \version "2.18.2"
> >
> > \header {tagline = ""}
> > {
> >  \numericTimeSignature
> >  \time 4/4
> >  \key f \major
> >  \repeat volta 2 {
> >  \partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4(  a'4 \strike) bes'8(a'8 g'8\strike f'8) |
> > d'2 f'4. d'8 \strike | c'4 c'4( d'4f'4) | a'4( g'4 g'4 \strike)
> > \allowBreak \break
> >  \partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4(a'4 \strike) bes'8(a'8g'8 \strike f'8) |
> > d'2 f'4.( d'8 \strike) | c'4c'4d'(e'4) | f'2. \allowBreak \break }
> >  \repeat volta 2 {
> >  \partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4( a'4\strike a'4\strike) g'8f'8 | bes'2
> > d''4.( bes'8\strike) | a'4c''4( a'4\strike) f'4 | a'4g'4( g'4\strike)
> > \allowBreak \break
> >  \partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4(a'4\strike) bes'8( a'8 g'8\strike  f'8) |
> > d'2 f'4.(d'8\strike) | c'4(c'4\strike) d'4 e'4 | f'4. }
> > }
> >
>
> --
> William Rehwinkel - Oberlin College and Conservatory '24
>
> will...@williamrehwinkel.net
>
> PGP key: https://ftp.williamrehwinkel.net/pubkey.txt

Re: What's causing this extra bar line and empty bar?

[Robert Hickman]

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 at 00:12, William Rehwinkel
 wrote:
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> in the future, please take care that the minimal working example does
> not contain any undefined symbols that cause errors. Here, simply adding
> "strike = \fermata" at the beginning of the file alleviated all these
> errors, however.
>
> After using convert-ly and rendering (using version 2.25.7) this extra
> barline doesn't appear. Can you try updating to the most recent version
> of lilypond (.24 or .25), and see if that helps?
>
> Thanks,
> -William
>
> On 11/19/23 19:00, Robert Hickman wrote:
> > Hi people. I'm trying to reproduce the formatting from a tune that
> > started out in ABC notation, which is formatted with line breaks
> > around phrases instead of bars. It is working as intended, except for
> > an empty bar that's showing up after the first repeat sign, and I have
> > no idea what's causing it. Also there's extra space being added before
> > the other line breaks as well:
> >
> > https://pureocarinas.com/res/lilypond/aikendrumnotation_0c01fcb19c471b86d2ab94badb4b7de55b3660f2.png
> >
> > The following is how it should be formatted (generated by ABCM2PS).
> >
> > https://pureocarinas.com/res/abc_converter/aikendrumnotation_0c01fcb19c471b86d2ab94badb4b7de55b3660f2.png
> >
> > And here's the code, without the definition of the \strike articulation 
> > symbol.
> >
> > \version "2.18.2"
> >
> > \header {tagline = ""}
> > {
> >  \numericTimeSignature
> >  \time 4/4
> >  \key f \major
> >  \repeat volta 2 {
> >  \partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4(  a'4 \strike) bes'8(a'8 g'8\strike f'8) |
> > d'2 f'4. d'8 \strike | c'4 c'4( d'4f'4) | a'4( g'4 g'4 \strike)
> > \allowBreak \break
> >  \partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4(a'4 \strike) bes'8(a'8g'8 \strike f'8) |
> > d'2 f'4.( d'8 \strike) | c'4c'4d'(e'4) | f'2. \allowBreak \break }
> >  \repeat volta 2 {
> >  \partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4( a'4\strike a'4\strike) g'8f'8 | bes'2
> > d''4.( bes'8\strike) | a'4c''4( a'4\strike) f'4 | a'4g'4( g'4\strike)
> > \allowBreak \break
> >  \partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4(a'4\strike) bes'8( a'8 g'8\strike  f'8) |
> > d'2 f'4.(d'8\strike) | c'4(c'4\strike) d'4 e'4 | f'4. }
> > }
> >
>
> --
> William Rehwinkel - Oberlin College and Conservatory '24
>
> will...@williamrehwinkel.net
>
> PGP key: https://ftp.williamrehwinkel.net/pubkey.txt

Good point. I'm using 2.18.2 which is what's in the repo for debian 10.

What's causing this extra bar line and empty bar?

[Robert Hickman]

Hi people. I'm trying to reproduce the formatting from a tune that
started out in ABC notation, which is formatted with line breaks
around phrases instead of bars. It is working as intended, except for
an empty bar that's showing up after the first repeat sign, and I have
no idea what's causing it. Also there's extra space being added before
the other line breaks as well:

https://pureocarinas.com/res/lilypond/aikendrumnotation_0c01fcb19c471b86d2ab94badb4b7de55b3660f2.png

The following is how it should be formatted (generated by ABCM2PS).

https://pureocarinas.com/res/abc_converter/aikendrumnotation_0c01fcb19c471b86d2ab94badb4b7de55b3660f2.png

And here's the code, without the definition of the \strike articulation symbol.

\version "2.18.2"

\header {tagline = ""}
{
\numericTimeSignature
\time 4/4
\key f \major
\repeat volta 2 {
\partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4(  a'4 \strike) bes'8(a'8 g'8\strike f'8) |
d'2 f'4. d'8 \strike | c'4 c'4( d'4f'4) | a'4( g'4 g'4 \strike)
\allowBreak \break
\partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4(a'4 \strike) bes'8(a'8g'8 \strike f'8) |
d'2 f'4.( d'8 \strike) | c'4c'4d'(e'4) | f'2. \allowBreak \break }
\repeat volta 2 {
\partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4( a'4\strike a'4\strike) g'8f'8 | bes'2
d''4.( bes'8\strike) | a'4c''4( a'4\strike) f'4 | a'4g'4( g'4\strike)
\allowBreak \break
\partial 4 f'8g'8 | a'4(a'4\strike) bes'8( a'8 g'8\strike  f'8) |
d'2 f'4.(d'8\strike) | c'4(c'4\strike) d'4 e'4 | f'4. }
}

Re: Very inconsistent vertical spacing from lilypond book and LaTeX

[Robert Hickman]

Hi David,

The .tex file contains the following (a snippet of), The idea about it
being where a new paragraph or line starts seems to make sense as the
added space seems to be about 1em.

\vspace{-0em}\Ssubsection{Scale}\vspace{-0em}
{%
\parindent 0pt
\noindent
\ifx\preLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\preLilyPondExample
\fi
\def\lilypondbook{}%
\input{ce/lily-6d98c8ee-systems.tex}
\ifx\postLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\postLilyPondExample
\fi
}

\vspace{-0.8em}\Ssubsection{Thirds}\vspace{-0em}
{%
\parindent 0pt
\noindent
\ifx\preLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\preLilyPondExample
\fi
\def\lilypondbook{}%
\input{ec/lily-01f558b3-systems.tex}
\ifx\postLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\postLilyPondExample
\fi
}

\vspace{-0.8em}\Ssubsection{Fourths}\vspace{-0em}
{%
\parindent 0pt
\noindent
\ifx\preLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\preLilyPondExample
\fi
\def\lilypondbook{}%
\input{75/lily-95458ceb-systems.tex}
\ifx\postLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\postLilyPondExample
\fi
}

\vspace{-0.8em}\Ssubsection{Fifths}\vspace{-0em}
{%
\parindent 0pt
\noindent
\ifx\preLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\preLilyPondExample
\fi
\def\lilypondbook{}%
\input{2f/lily-cee1d442-systems.tex}
\ifx\postLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\postLilyPondExample
\fi
}

\vspace{-0.8em}\Ssubsection{Sixths}\vspace{-0em}
{%
\parindent 0pt
\noindent
\ifx\preLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\preLilyPondExample
\fi
\def\lilypondbook{}%
\input{05/lily-bdd1bc6c-systems.tex}
\ifx\postLilyPondExample \undefined
\else
  \expandafter\postLilyPondExample
\fi
}

On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 19:56, David Wright  wrote:
>
> On Thu 21 May 2020 at 18:40:53 (+0100), Robert Hickman wrote:
> >
> > I'm helping my partner create a book of interval exercises, and I'm
> > getting very inconsistent vertical spacing coming from lilypond-book,
> > here is an example:
> >
> > https://files.robehickman.com/problem.pdf
> >
> > Weird thing is that this is very inconsistent between pages, and I
> > have verified there is no excess space in the music images. LaTeX
> > seems to be stretching white space erratically.
>
> No idea what's in your .tex file. Perhaps the larger spaces are where
> LaTeX thinks a new paragraph starts. The mere presence or absence of
> blank lines between the figures can affect/control that.
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>

Very inconsistent vertical spacing from lilypond book and LaTeX

[Robert Hickman]

Hi,

I'm helping my partner create a book of interval exercises, and I'm
getting very inconsistent vertical spacing coming from lilypond-book,
here is an example:

https://files.robehickman.com/problem.pdf

Weird thing is that this is very inconsistent between pages, and I
have verified there is no excess space in the music images. LaTeX
seems to be stretching white space erratically.

Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

"As we try to make clear, the Learning Manual is intentionally not
built for random access.  The Notation Reference *is* built for random
access."

However it frequently shows up in google search results out of order
and the way it is written mean that these pages often don't make
sense. Just including a note at the top of all of the pages "this is
the learning manual and is intended to be read start to finish" would
help clarify that.

The absolute fixed set that is relevant to all users is probably
smaller than expected as it depends heavily on the application. To
give an example, I'm not interested in creating multiple staff
arrangements as it isn't relevant to a monophonic instrument. It is
possible to write in a way that allows users to skip things they are
not interested in by converting the structure into a graph instead of
a linier sequence. Pages then have a 'dependency graph', a list of
things at the top that the reader needs to know. "Note, you need to
understand the following first: ...". This kind of structure also makes it
easy to go back and fill in gaps if they become relevant to someone in
the future.


"I don't see us doing away with the expectation of beginners reading
the Learning Manual, but as Kieren said, if you'd like to contribute
links that you think would help your understanding, we'd be happy to
accept your contributions."

I already have more on my plate than I'm able to handle sensibly so I
cannot directly make edits, however I am willing to make constructive
criticism if I see a problem.

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Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

It is quite apparent that this wasn't written for random access and I
feel that websites are much more effective and user friendly if they
are.

"It's easy to wave your hands and say "not good, I
want you all to redo it better" but that will not result in changes
getting done,"

I assume that the project still has contributors who work on the
documentation? It dosn't really matter if they are the original
authors of it. I'm not saying that it is terible, but making some
points about things that confused me, and how they could be resolved.

On 25 April 2018 at 18:54, David Kastrup  wrote:
> Robert Hickman  writes:
>
>> On 25 April 2018 at 18:44, Karlin High  wrote:
>>> On 4/25/2018 12:38 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Robert,
>>>>
>>>>> Many pages duplicate content or say 'please read page xyz first'
>>>>> because I recognise that people will enter the site from any page
>>>>> and I cannot make any assumptions about what they already know.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a great suggestion. Perhaps you can contribute such links as you
>>>> continue your Lilypond journey — no doubt there are lots of places these
>>>> redirects would be helpful to users (new and experienced).
>>>
>>> Like Kieren said, contributions welcome.
>>>
>>> There are some policies of not having documentation repeat things, though.
>>>
>>> <http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/contributor/introduction-to-documentation-work>
>>>
>>
>> IMO, if it makes the documentation hard to use those policies should
>> be thrown out or tamed. Terseness is valuable but not at the expense
>> of making something difficult to use.
>
> The Learning Manual can be worked through in something like three
> sessions, one skimming, and two more thorough after one has a hang of
> it.  The Notation Reference is less of a linear exercise.  It already
> contains something 800+ pages or so.  That in itself is making things
> difficult to use.  However, links (and/or printed references) don't take
> a lot of additional space.
>
> The current documentation is the work of ten thousands of hours from
> various contributors.  It's easy to wave your hands and say "not good, I
> want you all to redo it better" but that will not result in changes
> getting done, not least of all since many of the contributors are no
> longer around seeing you wave your hands.
>
> It's nice talking in the passive voice like "those policies should be
> thrown out or tamed", but the work does not magically do itself.
>
> --
> David Kastrup

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Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

On 25 April 2018 at 18:44, Karlin High  wrote:
> On 4/25/2018 12:38 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>>> Many pages duplicate content or say 'please read page xyz first'
>>> because I recognise that people will enter the site from any page
>>> and I cannot make any assumptions about what they already know.
>>
>>
>> This is a great suggestion. Perhaps you can contribute such links as you
>> continue your Lilypond journey — no doubt there are lots of places these
>> redirects would be helpful to users (new and experienced).
>
> Like Kieren said, contributions welcome.
>
> There are some policies of not having documentation repeat things, though.
>
> 
>

IMO, if it makes the documentation hard to use those policies should
be thrown out or tamed. Terseness is valuable but not at the expense
of making something difficult to use.

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Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

"
In the context of the Learning Manual, pitches and durations are
introduced in section 1.2.1.  It seems like it would be unfriendly to
clutter that section with a discussion about modifications coming
after the note.
"

The problem with this attitude is that it is a website and people will
enter it using search terms, and could enter from *any* page. Taking a
linier approach 'it has been ecxplained elsewhere' does not work.
Often people are time pressured (I am very time pressured), and simply
want to be able to search for and solve their current problem as
quicly as possible. I think this is a big part of why StackOverflow is
so successful, the answers are almost always given in context.

I am currently writing a website which discusses the capabilities of
the Italian ocarina. Many pages duplicate content or say 'please read
page xyz first' because I recognise that people will enter the site
from any page and I cannot make any assumptions about what they
already know.

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Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

On 24 April 2018 at 16:18, Karlin High  wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 9:18 AM, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>> The only way to create good documentation is to listen to your users
>> problems and progressively make improvements.
>
> Yes, exactly! The LilyPond community has a process for this.
> <http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/contributor/documentation-suggestions>
>
> However, in any software development community, some suggestions are
> more likely to be accepted than others. For example, if I went to a
> forum for a C-family language and said "This whole business of ending
> each line with a semicolon is just stupid; you need to change that!"
> what response would I get? Swift and overwhelmingly negative, right?
> That language element was settled years ago, and my opinions on it are
> irrelevant. Whatever help I would get from the C-people, getting rid
> of the semicolons would not be part of it.
> --

This is **NOT** the point I am making, I am saying that the
existing documentation should be improved to clearly explain the
syntax and I have already given an example of how that can be done.

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Re: \textLengthOn relative to bar lines instead of following note

[Robert Hickman]

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>
> I don't quite follow what you're asking.
>
> Info from other threads a while back, which could assist you:
>
> * The action of \textLengthOn extends the length of the moment in time at
> which it occurs.
> *All notes which occur at a later musical moment will be displaced to the
> end of the text.
> * \textLengthOn does not necessarily increase the spacing of the note that
> the text is attached to -
>  the shortest moment in time when the text occurs will get the added space.
>
> Does this help you understand better?
>
> Do you happen to have an image showing what you're after?
>

Yes but that's not the effect I want. I want the space that is
inserted to be at the end of the bar so the notes are otherwise spaced
normally. See attached. The annotation is an annotation of the whole
bar, not a single note. It also probably dosn't make sense outside the
document I'm writing.
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Re: \textLengthOn relative to bar lines instead of following note

[Robert Hickman]

On 24 April 2018 at 15:41, Robert Hickman  wrote:
> \textLengthOn Makes lilypond format relative to the length of the
> textual annotations instead of the notes. However it does this by
> inserting a huge gap between the note with the annotation and the next
> note. Is there a command that does the same thing relative to the bar
> lines. e.g. formats notes normally and moves the gap to the end of the
> bar?

I am annotating only the first note in the bar and the large gap which
is being added looks bad.

\version "2.18.2"

\header {tagline = ""}
{
%\override TextScript.Y-offset = #5
%\override TextScript.staff-padding = #5
\numericTimeSignature
\textLengthOn
\time 4/4
%\omit Staff.TimeSignature

\partial 2 a'4\cut^\markup { Unprefixed }( a'4\strike) | a'4
(a'4\cut^\markup { Prefixed } a'4\strike)
}

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\textLengthOn relative to bar lines instead of following note

[Robert Hickman]

\textLengthOn Makes lilypond format relative to the length of the
textual annotations instead of the notes. However it does this by
inserting a huge gap between the note with the annotation and the next
note. Is there a command that does the same thing relative to the bar
lines. e.g. formats notes normally and moves the gap to the end of the
bar?

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Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

The only way to create good documentation is to listen to your users
problems and progressively make improvements.

On 24 April 2018 at 14:49, Kieren MacMillan
 wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
>> If I misinterpreted it you can guarantee
>> that other people are also doing so.
>
> Well, that’s a faulty generalization…  ;) … but IMO more clarity is always 
> better.
>
> As they say: "Patches [to the docs] are always gratefully accepted."
>
> Cheers,
> Kieren.
> 
>
> Kieren MacMillan, composer
> ‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
> ‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info
>

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Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

> The example looks pretty clear to me.  "marked with" is not really
> synonymous with "surrounded with" in my book even though it could be
> more explicit about just how the marks are supposed to be made.
>

If I misinterpreted it you can guarantee that other people are also
doing so. The documentation is full of vagueness like this which will
almost certainly be frustrating and putting off newcomers. Always be
explicit.

It will make sense to you because you are used it it, if you are
familiar with something you will not see the problems with it.

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Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

On 24 April 2018 at 14:25, Kieren MacMillan
 wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
>> Instead the correct syntax should be:
>>
>> g (b d g)
>
> No… the correct syntax is
>
> g( b d g)
>
> The ( is attached, postfix, to the first note of the slurred group.

Stating that in the page I referenced would be a good idea.

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Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

Hi Karlin

"Unclear documentation can be improved. Need a reference for it,
though; where was this found?"

I'm talking about the following page:

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/ties-and-slurs.en.html

The page states:

"A slur is a curve drawn across many notes. The starting note and
ending note are marked with ( and ) respectively. "

To me this says that a slur should be written (g b d g), with the
first note inside the slur. That would align with ABC notation which
I'm more familiar with. Instead the correct syntax should be:

g (b d g)

I'd modify the explanation as follows:

"A slur is a curve drawn across many notes. The starting note and
ending note are marked with ( and ) respectively. The opening paran
should be placed after the first note of the slur, and the closing
paran should come after the last note. For example: g (b d g). "

Personally I prefer the syntax used by ABC notation, with all notes of
a slur inside the parans, but I don't see it being changed at this
point.

On 24 April 2018 at 14:05, Karlin High  wrote:
> On 4/24/2018 7:57 AM, Robert Hickman wrote:
>>
>> The documentation does not make it
>> clear that the start of the slur should be after the first note of the
>> slur.
>
>
> Unclear documentation can be improved. Need a reference for it, though;
> where was this found?
> --
> Karlin High
> Missouri, USA

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Re: Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

Actually it's a misinterpretation. The documentation does not make it
clear that the start of the slur should be after the first note of the
slur.

 a'2 (a'4 a'4 )

On 24 April 2018 at 13:50, Robert Hickman  wrote:
> The documentation says that slurs can be created by putting notes
> within '()' however this does not work in combination with the Larsen
> articulation symbols:
>
> {
> (a'2 a'4\cut a'4\strike)
> }
>
> I get the following error:
>
> error: syntax error, unexpected EVENT_IDENTIFIER
>
> (a'2 a'4\cut a'4\strike)
> input.ly:82:1: error: errors found, ignoring music expression
>
> {
> fatal error: failed files: "input.ly"
>
> ---
>
> This is the full code:
>
> \version "2.18.2"
>
>
> % OPTIONS -- ADJUST AS DESIRED
>
>   larsenSymbolsScale = #1.5
> % Adjust this to scale all symbols up or down (default #1.5).
> Known issue: adjusting this affects the spacing of the components of
> the long and short double-cut roll symbols.
>
>   larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth = #.065
> % Adjust this to change outline thicknesses for all symbols.
>
> % DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING BELOW HERE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING
>
>
> % SOME VARIABLES
>   larsenSymbolsHalignFactor = #(+ (* larsenSymbolsScale ( / 2 3 ) )
> .15 ) % this is an arbitrary number discovered by trial and error; it
> helps keep the symbols roughly aligned with noteheads if the symbols
> are resized using \larsenSymbolsScale
>   larsenSymbolsHalfSize = #(* .5 larsenSymbolsScale)
>   larsenSymbolsFlipVertical = #(* -1 larsenSymbolsScale)
>
> % SYMBOL: CUT
>
>   cutCoordinates =   #'(
> (.4 .9)
> (.55 .825)
>   )
>
>   cutStencil =
> \markup \halign #(/ -3 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \stencil
> #(make-connected-path-stencil
>   cutCoordinates
>   larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth
>   larsenSymbolsScale
>   larsenSymbolsScale
>   #t
>   #t
> )
>
>   cut = ^\cutStencil
>
>   tinyCutStencil = % The "tiny cut" is used as a component of some of
> the more complex symbols
> \markup \stencil
> #(make-connected-path-stencil
>   cutCoordinates
>   larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth
>   larsenSymbolsHalfSize
>   larsenSymbolsHalfSize
>   #t
>   #t
> )
>
>   tinyCut = \tinyCutStencil
>
>   tinyCuts =
> \markup
>   \halign #(/ -6.25 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \raise #(/ .35
> larsenSymbolsHalignFactor)
>   \combine
> \tinyCut
> \halign #(/ .25 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \raise #(/ .2
> larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \tinyCut
>
> % SYMBOL: STRIKE
>
>   strikeStencil = \markup \halign #(/ -1.75 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) 
> \stencil
> #(make-connected-path-stencil
>   '(
> (.234 .831)
> (.156 .831)
> (-.012 .317)
> (-.156 .831)
> (-.293 .831)
>)
>   larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth
>   larsenSymbolsScale
>   larsenSymbolsScale
>   #t
>   #t
> )
>
>   strike = ^\strikeStencil
>
>
> \header {tagline = ""}
> {
> \numericTimeSignature
> \time 4/4
>
> (a'2 a'4\cut a'4\strike)
> }

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Slurs do not work with Larsen articulations

[Robert Hickman]

The documentation says that slurs can be created by putting notes
within '()' however this does not work in combination with the Larsen
articulation symbols:

{
(a'2 a'4\cut a'4\strike)
}

I get the following error:

error: syntax error, unexpected EVENT_IDENTIFIER

(a'2 a'4\cut a'4\strike)
input.ly:82:1: error: errors found, ignoring music expression

{
fatal error: failed files: "input.ly"

---

This is the full code:

\version "2.18.2"


% OPTIONS -- ADJUST AS DESIRED

  larsenSymbolsScale = #1.5
% Adjust this to scale all symbols up or down (default #1.5).
Known issue: adjusting this affects the spacing of the components of
the long and short double-cut roll symbols.

  larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth = #.065
% Adjust this to change outline thicknesses for all symbols.

% DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING BELOW HERE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING


% SOME VARIABLES
  larsenSymbolsHalignFactor = #(+ (* larsenSymbolsScale ( / 2 3 ) )
.15 ) % this is an arbitrary number discovered by trial and error; it
helps keep the symbols roughly aligned with noteheads if the symbols
are resized using \larsenSymbolsScale
  larsenSymbolsHalfSize = #(* .5 larsenSymbolsScale)
  larsenSymbolsFlipVertical = #(* -1 larsenSymbolsScale)

% SYMBOL: CUT

  cutCoordinates =   #'(
(.4 .9)
(.55 .825)
  )

  cutStencil =
\markup \halign #(/ -3 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \stencil
#(make-connected-path-stencil
  cutCoordinates
  larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth
  larsenSymbolsScale
  larsenSymbolsScale
  #t
  #t
)

  cut = ^\cutStencil

  tinyCutStencil = % The "tiny cut" is used as a component of some of
the more complex symbols
\markup \stencil
#(make-connected-path-stencil
  cutCoordinates
  larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth
  larsenSymbolsHalfSize
  larsenSymbolsHalfSize
  #t
  #t
)

  tinyCut = \tinyCutStencil

  tinyCuts =
\markup
  \halign #(/ -6.25 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \raise #(/ .35
larsenSymbolsHalignFactor)
  \combine
\tinyCut
\halign #(/ .25 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \raise #(/ .2
larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \tinyCut

% SYMBOL: STRIKE

  strikeStencil = \markup \halign #(/ -1.75 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \stencil
#(make-connected-path-stencil
  '(
(.234 .831)
(.156 .831)
(-.012 .317)
(-.156 .831)
(-.293 .831)
   )
  larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth
  larsenSymbolsScale
  larsenSymbolsScale
  #t
  #t
)

  strike = ^\strikeStencil


\header {tagline = ""}
{
\numericTimeSignature
\time 4/4

(a'2 a'4\cut a'4\strike)
}

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Re: Moving just text, leaving articulations in place?

[Robert Hickman]

> Correct me if I am wrong: I don't use Gmail.

Gmail completely hides previous messages by default, you have to
manually show them, which is not standard use or google would not hide
it.

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Re: Moving just text, leaving articulations in place?

[Robert Hickman]

> As described in the Learning Manual, which has been suggested that you read, 
> \once applies to everything happening at that musical moment; \tweak applies 
> to only the object containing the \tweak.
>
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/learning/tweaking-methods
>
> You really *should* take the time to read carefully through the Learning 
> Manual, rather than just trying to figure things out by looking at examples.  
> It will save you time in both the short and the long run.
>

I have read the learning manual but was not clear on that issue.


> Also, the LilyPond mailing list rules frown on top-posting.  Please use 
> inline quoting instead.

That is how gmail works by default, and I was not aware of that rule.

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Re: Moving just text, leaving articulations in place?

[Robert Hickman]

Thanks, as far as I can see lilyponds modification system is based on
a stack based state machine, \override permanently changes that state
while \tweak only changes it once. Where would you use \tweak vs \once
as they appear to do the same thing?

On 19 April 2018 at 07:55, Mark Knoop  wrote:
> At 17:38 on 18 Apr 2018, Robert Hickman wrote:
>>Tried using "\override TextScript.staff-padding" to move the text
>>annotations in the attached image up but it also moves the Larson
>>articulation symbols up as well. I want these to stay in the same
>>place and the text to move up a bit away from them. Is lilypond
>>treating the articulation symbols as text?
>>
>>\header {tagline = ""}
>>
>>{
>>\override TextScript.staff-padding = #5
>>\numericTimeSignature
>>\time 3/8
>>
>>g'4.\cut^\markup {\tiny Cut } |  g'4.\strike^\markup {\tiny
>> Strike } |
>>}
>
> Use \tweak instead of \override, viz:
>
> {
> \numericTimeSignature
> \time 3/8
>
> g'4.\cut -\tweak staff-padding #5 ^\markup {\tiny Cut } |
> g'4.\strike -\tweak staff-padding #5 ^\markup {\tiny Strike } |
> }
>
> --
> Mark Knoop
>
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Re: Moving just text, leaving articulations in place?

[Robert Hickman]

Is it possible to create a local context around just the text to move
them up individually and 'fake it'? I only need these secondary
annotations in this example so it woulden't be a problem overall.

I don't want to resort to hand editing the image if I can at all avoid
it. For instance if screen DPI increases and I need to re render the
images. They are automatically converted by my CMS, so I'd only need
to change the dpi and purge the cache. Anything changed manually would
need to be re done manually and would probably be forgotten about. I
am not using SVG due to a font sizing inconsistency I've noted before
and can't be bothered to look into.

On 18 April 2018 at 23:25, Simon Albrecht  wrote:
> On 18.04.2018 18:38, Robert Hickman wrote:
>>
>> Tried using "\override TextScript.staff-padding" to move the text
>> annotations in the attached image up but it also moves the Larson
>> articulation symbols up as well. I want these to stay in the same
>> place and the text to move up a bit away from them. Is lilypond
>> treating the articulation symbols as text?
>
>
> Yes, it does, because that’s how they are implemented. ^\markup "" generates
> a TextScript grob.
> Sorry I can’t help with how to generate proper custom articulations (that
> generate Script grobs) right now – surely somebody else will be able to
> chime in.
>
> Best, Simon

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Re: Changing spacing between notes a lot

[Robert Hickman]

ok, I see.

On 18 April 2018 at 17:26, Ben  wrote:
> On 4/18/2018 12:18 PM, Robert Hickman wrote:
>
> How could I do this, but move the whole note instead of just the head?
>
> \tweak Note.X-extent #'(-3 . -1)
>
> Dosn't seem to work.
>
> Also why are two numbers given in the parans if it is only moving the
> X position?
>
> On 17 April 2018 at 19:41, Kieren MacMillan
>  wrote:
>
>
>
> i.e.
>
> \override NoteColumn.X-offset = #5
>
>
> or
>
>
> \tweak NoteColumn.X-extent #'(-14 . 0)
>
>
>
> ...there are many ways to do things but it all would depend on the situation
> and the score.
>
>
>
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Moving just text, leaving articulations in place?

[Robert Hickman]

Tried using "\override TextScript.staff-padding" to move the text
annotations in the attached image up but it also moves the Larson
articulation symbols up as well. I want these to stay in the same
place and the text to move up a bit away from them. Is lilypond
treating the articulation symbols as text?

Complete below, my code is at the bottom:

\version "2.18.2"

% Copyright © 2014, Bret Pimentel. http://bretpimentel.com


% HOW TO USE

  % 1. Put this file in the same folder as the .ly file you are
working on, or, even better, somewhere in your Lilypond include path.
  % 2. Add the following line near the top of your .ly file, under the
"version" line (do not include the percent sign):
  %  \include "larsen-symbols.ily"
  % 3. Add symbols to notes using this syntax (no percent sign):
  %  c\crann
  % The following symbols are available:
  %cut
  %strike
  %slideUp
  %slideDown
  %longRoll
  %shortRoll
  %longDoubleCutRoll
  %shortDoubleCutRoll
  %crann
  %shortCrann
  %trill
  %singleTrill
  %shake
  %breathe
  % ("trill" and "breathe" are already built into Lilypond, but are
listed here because they form part of Mr. Larsen's system of symbols.)
  % For a thorough introduction to Mr. Larsen's excellent
ornamentation system, buy this book (affiliate link):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786649429/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0786649429&linkCode=as2&tag=bretpimewood-20&linkId=DQYNUO6ZFISH6REA


% OPTIONS -- ADJUST AS DESIRED

  larsenSymbolsScale = #1.5
% Adjust this to scale all symbols up or down (default #1.5).
Known issue: adjusting this affects the spacing of the components of
the long and short double-cut roll symbols.

  larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth = #.065
% Adjust this to change outline thicknesses for all symbols.

% DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING BELOW HERE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING


% SOME VARIABLES
  larsenSymbolsHalignFactor = #(+ (* larsenSymbolsScale ( / 2 3 ) )
.15 ) % this is an arbitrary number discovered by trial and error; it
helps keep the symbols roughly aligned with noteheads if the symbols
are resized using \larsenSymbolsScale
  larsenSymbolsHalfSize = #(* .5 larsenSymbolsScale)
  larsenSymbolsFlipVertical = #(* -1 larsenSymbolsScale)

% SYMBOL: CUT

  cutCoordinates =   #'(
(.4 .9)
(.55 .825)
  )

  cutStencil =
\markup \halign #(/ -3 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \stencil
#(make-connected-path-stencil
  cutCoordinates
  larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth
  larsenSymbolsScale
  larsenSymbolsScale
  #t
  #t
)

  cut = ^\cutStencil

  tinyCutStencil = % The "tiny cut" is used as a component of some of
the more complex symbols
\markup \stencil
#(make-connected-path-stencil
  cutCoordinates
  larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth
  larsenSymbolsHalfSize
  larsenSymbolsHalfSize
  #t
  #t
)

  tinyCut = \tinyCutStencil

  tinyCuts =
\markup
  \halign #(/ -6.25 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \raise #(/ .35
larsenSymbolsHalignFactor)
  \combine
\tinyCut
\halign #(/ .25 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \raise #(/ .2
larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \tinyCut

% SYMBOL: STRIKE

  strikeStencil = \markup \halign #(/ -1.75 larsenSymbolsHalignFactor) \stencil
#(make-connected-path-stencil
  '(
(.234 .831)
(.156 .831)
(-.012 .317)
(-.156 .831)
(-.293 .831)
   )
  larsenSymbolsOutlineWidth
  larsenSymbolsScale
  larsenSymbolsScale
  #t
  #t
)

  strike = ^\strikeStencil

%-
\header {tagline = ""}

{
\override TextScript.staff-padding = #5
\numericTimeSignature
\time 3/8

g'4.\cut^\markup {\tiny Cut } |  g'4.\strike^\markup {\tiny Strike } |
}
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Re: Changing spacing between notes a lot

[Robert Hickman]

How could I do this, but move the whole note instead of just the head?

\tweak Note.X-extent #'(-3 . -1)

Dosn't seem to work.

Also why are two numbers given in the parans if it is only moving the
X position?

On 17 April 2018 at 19:41, Kieren MacMillan
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> I was wondering if there is a way to change the spacing between notes
>> many times in a staff.
>
> There are many ways of accomplishing the thing you describe.
>
>> What I would like to do is to make something like this.
>> 
>
> Here’s one way of doing that:
>
> %%%  SNIPPET BEGINS
> \version "2.19.80"
> \language "english"
>
> \layout {
>   \context {
> \Staff
> \omit Stem
> \remove "Time_signature_engraver"
> \remove "Clef_engraver"
>   }
> }
>
> stuff = {
>   \cadenzaOn
>   \tweak NoteHead.X-extent #'(-3 . -1) g'4
>   \tweak NoteHead.X-extent #'(-1.75 . 2) f' g' c''1 4
>   \tweak NoteHead.X-extent #'(1 . 2.5) a' f'1
> }
>
> \score { \stuff }
> %%%  SNIPPET ENDS
>
> Hope that helps!
> Kieren.
> 
>
> Kieren MacMillan, composer
> ‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
> ‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info
>
>
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Re: Consistent vertical alignment of annotations, disable time signiture

[Robert Hickman]

> Can you suggest a better word to describe all the various things on a page of 
> musical notation (e.g., note head, flag, rest, stem, dot, slur, etc.)?

No, but classifying it to say 'not related to OOP' would have avoided
the confusion.

I think my main point of confusion related to the term 'interface'
which appears to be used in the same sense of 'class implementing an
interface' in java-esque oop systems. 'This object must provide the
following methods'.

On 18 April 2018 at 15:13, Kieren MacMillan
 wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
>> If lilypond is based on a functional interface, the documentation
>> making extensive use of the terms 'object' and 'interface' is confusing.
>
> Can you suggest a better word to describe all the various things on a page of 
> musical notation (e.g., note head, flag, rest, stem, dot, slur, etc.)?
>
> Thanks,
> Kieren.
> 
>
> Kieren MacMillan, composer
> ‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
> ‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info
>

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Re: override TextScript.padding changes text baseline?

[Robert Hickman]

Was using 'spacing' to refer to 'gap' as a general concept, rather
than an LP term. But staff-padding fixes the issue. Thanks Ben and
David.

'padding' is relative to the bounding box of a grob?

On 18 April 2018 at 15:32, David Kastrup  wrote:
> Robert Hickman  writes:
>
>> I am attempting to increase the spacing between a text block and the
>> staff, which I have found can be done using
>>  \override TextScript.padding = ...
>
> That doesn't increase the _spacing_ but the padding.
>
>> However doing this changes the baseline of the text for some
>> reason.
>
> It doesn't change the baseline at all.  The additional padding may make
> it necessary to shift the baseline in order to avoid collisions with
> other scripts or objects.  You likely want to change staff-padding
> instead which is supposed to make room for the reference points rather
> than the outlines.
>
> --
> David Kastrup

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override TextScript.padding changes text baseline?

[Robert Hickman]

I am attempting to increase the spacing between a text block and the
staff, which I have found can be done using
 \override TextScript.padding = ... However doing this changes the
baseline of the text for some reason. 'good baseline' the bottom of
the 'g' hangs down as expected. When the padding is set, the bottom of
the G is used as basis making the result look bad.

\version "2.18.2"
\header {tagline = ""}
{
\override TextScript.padding = #2
\omit Staff.TimeSignature
\textLengthOn
\numericTimeSignature
\time 1/4
\acciaccatura c''8 g'4^\markup {\tiny Absolute } | \acciaccatura
a'8 g'4^\markup {\tiny Vague }
}

This example shows two different uses of grace-notes for notating
finger articulations in Irish music. the first is used to indicate
whistle fingering, the second means 'play a cut on any finger'.
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Re: Consistent vertical alignment of annotations, disable time signiture

[Robert Hickman]

If lilypond is based on a functional interface, the documentation
making extensive use of the terms 'object' and 'interface' is
confusing.

On 18 April 2018 at 13:35, Andrew Bernard  wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> Having just learned ABC, I see that it supports rolls, but not all the
> Larsen ornament notation. I see no reason why ABC can't be extended - there
> are many, dozens in fact, ABC editors that are open source. Worth looking
> into. It you can produce a trill in ABC, you can produce a cut.
>
> Andrew
>
>

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Re: Consistent vertical alignment of annotations, disable time signiture

[Robert Hickman]

You are largely missing the point I was trying to make, however I have
a lot of work to do and cannot be bothered to argue.

On 18 April 2018 at 13:24, David Kastrup  wrote:
> Robert Hickman  writes:
>
>> The best example of the leaky abstraction problem I can think of right
>> now are actually visual HTML editors.
>
> That's more in line of complaining about Denemo than LilyPond.  Either
> way the solution lies in not confusing the editor's domain with the the
> result domain.
>
>> As David notes, I am talking about input layer not internals. The
>> lilypond syntax appears to be an abstraction over an object oriented
>> design,
>
> No, that definitely isn't it.  Absolutely not.
>
>> with a lot of implicit 'magic', and for me as a new user it is very
>> difficult to see why it does some things, like randomly creating an
>> empty staff. What I'm wandering is weather it would be clearer to just
>> use an object oriented syntax directly and make the implicit stuff
>> explicit.
>
> LilyPond is designed as an input language.  Its internal data structures
> are mostly mapped to Scheme data structures.  Scheme is a functional
> language, not an object oriented language.  Large swaths of LilyPond are
> coded in C++ for efficiency reasons, but the data models of C++ don't
> really have exposure worth noting to LilyPond.
>
> Understanding LilyPond's input is not related to understanding C++ and
> not significantly related to Scheme either.  Its input language is
> defined in a traditional lexer/parser manner implemented with a standard
> LALR(1) parser generator.  For debugging and programming reasons, its
> productions these days pass around Scheme data structures exclusively
> but that's a comparatively recent development.
>
> So no: you are completely wrong with your musings and they have
> absolutely no relation to internals of LilyPond: this rather concerns
> the completely independent syntax (and parser-internal semantics) of its
> input files.
>
>> ABC notation does most of what I need, but lacks a few minor
>> formatting controls and the ability to define symbols which I need to
>> finish the work that I'm doing. Lillypond seems vastly more
>> complicated than I need.
>
> If you don't insist into digging yourself into the complexity, you can
> get away perfectly well without it.  But you refuse doing so because you
> express your a priori confidence that its authors and maintainers are
> incapable of properly layering its complexity.
>
>> The learning manual spends most of it's time going into things that I
>> have no use for, such as multiple staff arrangements.
>
> If you want to pay for a personal tutor catering to your personal needs,
> of course you can save the time skipping over unwanted material.
> Manuals are a compromise between saving time for the teacher and saving
> time for the learner.  As we have a vastly larger number of users over
> teachers, they are freeing resources for the project.
>
>> Sheet music could either be complex or simple depending on what you
>> are trying to do, for what I'm doing a fixed-spacing 'dumb stacking
>> algorithm' that abcm2ps appears to use is perfectly adequate.
>
> So?  What are you hoping to gain by lecturing everyone how bad LilyPond
> must have been designed according to your experience with and/or without
> it?
>
> I mean, I am the last one to let a good opportunity for pontificating go
> to waste, but so far I fail to see that you have availed yourself of
> such an opportunity.  Perhaps try to figure out what you actually want
> to get achieved and then think of plans, technical and/or social, to
> actually get them done.
>
> There is no point playing to your strengths without applying them in a
> useful manner to problems you want to see solved.
>
> --
> David Kastrup

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Re: Consistent vertical alignment of annotations, disable time signiture

[Robert Hickman]

The best example of the leaky abstraction problem I can think of right
now are actually visual HTML editors. HTML is very complicated and
follows a 'WYSIWYM' model similar to LaTeX, however the visual editors
try to force this into a 'WYSIWYG' model which simply does not work,
especially when responsive layouts are a factor, as what you see is
inherently going to change. This tends to result in things breaking in
unexpected ways, because the user is not aware of the mismatch. Plus
these tools are usually only aware of a small subset of HTML, so if
they are used in combination with hand written code things get broken
as a result.

As David notes, I am talking about input layer not internals. The
lilypond syntax appears to be an abstraction over an object oriented
design, with a lot of implicit 'magic', and for me as a new user it is
very difficult to see why it does some things, like randomly creating
an empty staff. What I'm wandering is weather it would be clearer to
just use an object oriented syntax directly and make the implicit
stuff explicit.

ABC notation does most of what I need, but lacks a few minor
formatting controls and the ability to define symbols which I need to
finish the work that I'm doing. Lillypond seems vastly more
complicated than I need. The learning manual spends most of it's time
going into things that I have no use for, such as multiple staff
arrangements. Sheet music could either be complex or simple depending
on what you are trying to do, for what I'm doing a fixed-spacing 'dumb
stacking algorithm' that abcm2ps appears to use is perfectly adequate.

Irish trad music is different from classical tradition in that the
scores denote a simple 'outline' of a tune. How they are actually
played tends to differ a great deal, including implicit 'lilt' or
'swung' rhythms and ornamentation and melodic variations that are
added by the player, generally differently every single time they play
a tune. Outside of teaching materials it is rare to notate
articulations, slurs, or ornaments at all. Standard playing style
often attempts to emulate numerous historical bagpipes by slurring
everything by default, and using fingered articulations extensively.

I suspect that ABCn hasn't defined the Larson symbols both because of
the above, and because folk musicians often notate fingered
articulations using grace notes. However this notation requires
different interpretation from the usage of grace notes in classical
theory, and as a result only works within the scope of a given
tradition. It's also very open to misinterpretation if encountered by
classically trained musicians. Calling these 'grace notes' is also
misleading as they are used as articulations, basically
interchangeably with tonguing. They exploit the limits of human
perception by being extremely brief. When played well they are so
brief that their absolute pitch is not perceived. In order to do this
dependably special fingerings or techniques are used.  Grey Larson's
book recognises the mostly my last point, which lead to his notation
system.

On 18 April 2018 at 09:37, David Kastrup  wrote:
> Andrew Bernard  writes:
>
>> Hello Robert,
>>
>> Speaking as a programmer myself with over forty years of experience,
>> and an advanced lilypond users, I can categorically assert that
>> lilypond is not trying to be 'clever'. This is an utter
>> misunderstanding. Lilypond is however trying to engrave music to the
>> highest possible standard, and this is an immensely difficult
>> programming proposition, hence the complexity under the hood, and the
>> slight difficulties in the syntax. It's not meant to be simplistic or
>> easy like ABC.
>
> I hate to waste a good defense, but you are talking about its internals
> here and Robert was arguing about the input layer with me.  Different
> beasts.  It's akin to discussing plain TeX vs LaTeX based on the quality
> of the output.  The point of LaTeX is to provide an input and
> abstraction layer, the typesetting remains the job of TeX, the program.
> Now LaTeX is indeed bleeding complexity when you poke it too hard.
>
> LilyPond's input language is intended to be expressive and convenient
> but a whole lot of pain goes into assuring that it bleeds in concordance
> with both reasonable and unreasonable expectations even when you poke it
> too hard.
>
> As an example, compare the 2.19 version and interaction of of #{ ... #},
> $, and # with the 2.12 one.  The current version is quite "cleverer",
> going to large pains to make sure that closures, error messages and
> whatnot reliably point to where you'd expect them to be.  This is a much
> more thorough layer than LaTeX provides around TeX, and yet people feel
> much more comfortable using LaTeX than plain TeX.  The LaTeX layers fall
> apart when problems occur and you have to debug.  LilyPond layers tend
> to hold up even under debugging.
>
> Robert may be speaking from experience, but experience without actual
> knowledge can win over knowledge only when

Re: Consistent vertical alignment of annotations, disable time signiture

[Robert Hickman]

> Trying to understand LilyPond syntax based on how
> it actually processes input is not likely to make learning easy since a
> lot of complicated mechanisms work behind the scenes in order to make
> things look easy.

In my general experience, systems which try to be cleaver and are not
explicit about what they are doing tend to break in weird, unexpected
ways. Complex abstractions always leak. It is also a constant burden
on the user if they have to remember that some things are added
implicitly.

On 17 April 2018 at 17:43, David Kastrup  wrote:
> Robert Hickman  writes:
>
>>> That's not Lisp/Scheme syntax but LilyPond syntax.  There is a
>>> manual for it.  Several, in fact.
>>
>> I'm aware.
>>
>> \context {
>>   \Staff
>>   \omit TimeSignature
>> }
>>
>> If I'm understanding this correctly, this would be written something
>> like the following in a typical OO syntax:
>>
>> x =  Staff.clone();
>> x.omit(TimeSignature);
>
> And
>
> currentlayout.set (x.name, x);
>
> or something when the above appears in
>
> \layout { ... }
>
> Though \omit TimeSignature is short for the music expression
>
> \override TimeSignature.stencil = ##f
>
> and is translated into the identical looking context modification by
> some hook function.  Trying to understand LilyPond syntax based on how
> it actually processes input is not likely to make learning easy since a
> lot of complicated mechanisms work behind the scenes in order to make
> things look easy.
>
> --
> David Kastrup

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Re: Consistent vertical alignment of annotations, disable time signiture

[Robert Hickman]

> That's not Lisp/Scheme syntax but LilyPond syntax.  There is a manual for it. 
>  Several, in fact.

I'm aware.

\context {
  \Staff
  \omit TimeSignature
}

If I'm understanding this correctly, this would be written something
like the following in a typical OO syntax:

x =  Staff.clone();
x.omit(TimeSignature);


On 17 April 2018 at 16:40, David Kastrup  wrote:
> Robert Hickman  writes:
>
>> Thanks, I have a vague familiarity with lisps, but have never used scheme.
>>
>> I'm not certain how to visually parse a statment like \Staff \omit
>> TimeSignature. It kind of looks like \Staff is a function taking two
>> arguments, where \omit is either a constant or a function that returns
>> a constant, and TimeSignature is some kind of constant. But it could
>> also be that TimeSigniture is being passed to \omit, which returns to
>> \staff. It's difficult to read because it doesn't parenthesise like
>> typical programming languages.
>
> That's not Lisp/Scheme syntax but LilyPond syntax.  There is a manual
> for it.  Several, in fact.
>
> \context {
>   \Staff
>   \omit TimeSignature
> }
>
> is a context definition that starts by copying the existing "Staff"
> context definition and adds an omission of the stencil for the
> TimeSignature grob (graphical object) to it, then takes this as a new
> context definition.  Since this copies the original "\name Staff"
> definition of the origin Staff definition, it overrides the existing
> Staff definition.  If you specified a different name, it would instead
> create a new context definition under the given name.
>
> I am not enthused with that syntax either.
>
> --
> David Kastrup

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Re: Consistent vertical alignment of annotations, disable time signiture

[Robert Hickman]

Thanks, I have a vague familiarity with lisps, but have never used scheme.

I'm not certain how to visually parse a statment like \Staff \omit
TimeSignature. It kind of looks like \Staff is a function taking two
arguments, where \omit is either a constant or a function that returns
a constant, and TimeSignature is some kind of constant. But it could
also be that TimeSigniture is being passed to \omit, which returns to
\staff. It's difficult to read because it doesn't parenthesise like
typical programming languages.

On 17 April 2018 at 01:57, Andrew Bernard  wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> As I mentioned and others have said, there is no substitute for studying the
> NR and the Learning Manual, in detail, exhaustively. It's a powerful program
> with enormous control, unlike typical GUI programs. It's no different to
> learning to play tin whistle. Nobody would expect to learn it in a week.
> Because lilypond is text based, you have to fully understand the syntax and
> semantics for advanced work. If you are keen, you can learn Scheme and
> program functions and extensions. The documentation is exceptionally good,
> given that this is open source software.
>
> [Re the Larsen ornaments, I can't see how to integrate Scheme and Lilypond
> in safe mode. Possibly impossible!]
>
> cheerio!
> Andrew
>
>
> On 17 April 2018 at 04:50, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm finding it quite difficult to find out how to do what I want to do
>> with lilypond.
>>
>

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Re: Consistent vertical alignment of annotations, disable time signiture

[Robert Hickman]

\omit Staff.TimeSignature

Works correctly, I found variations on the following with google, which was
giving a syntax error:

\context { \Staff \omit TimeSignature}

I'm finding it quite difficult to find out how to do what I want to do with
lilypond.




On 16 April 2018 at 19:43, Malte Meyn  wrote:

>
>
> Am 16.04.2018 um 20:39 schrieb Simon Albrecht:
>
>> On 16.04.2018 20:05, Robert Hickman wrote:
>>
>>> So far I have the result attached, which is close to what I want, but I
>>> haven't found a clear example of how to get the two text annotations to
>>> align vertically.
>>>
>>
>> Try overriding TextScript.staff-padding – which will also move them up at
>> appropriate values.
>>
>> I'd also like to move both up a bit.
>>>
>>> I'd also like to remove the time signature as it isn't needed in this
>>> example.
>>>
>>
>> That’s easy: \omit TimeSignature ;-)
>>
>
> Depending on where this is placed, it has to be
>
> \omit Staff.TimeSignature
>
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Consistent vertical alignment of annotations, disable time signiture

[Robert Hickman]

So far I have the result attached, which is close to what I want, but I
haven't found a clear example of how to get the two text annotations to
align vertically. I'd also like to move both up a bit.

If possible I also want to pad the gap between the first note and the bar,
so it is the same as the gap after the second note. I'd also like to remove
the time signature as it isn't needed in this example.
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Re: SVG enormous fonts issue

[Robert Hickman]

At least for now I'm giving up on this and using png images, if it isn't
displaying dependably for me it probably won't for some percentage of my
site users. Probably fixable with CSS but I can't be bothered to mess with
it, this has already taken way too long.

--

Seems to be related to firefox font scaling. I have my browser font set
larger as many pages are unreadable on this monitor without doing that. It
appears that crome does not apply browser font size to SVG while firefox
does.

I have also tested this using an SVG from abcm2ps and it also displays
fonts larger than intended, but not to the extent that lilypond files are.
abcm2ps is showing about 2x size, lilypond is more like 10x for some reason.

On 16 April 2018 at 17:19, Robert Hickman  wrote:

> This issue seems to be Firefox specific. Other SVG examples, such as those
> on w3schools, do not exhibit this issue in firefox.
>
> On 16 April 2018 at 16:58, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>
>> Fonts in SVG do not seem to respect font sizes, see attached SVG, for me
>> this displays with enormous fonts that go off the top of the page. It works
>> as intended in the PDF back end.
>>
>> \version "2.18.2"
>> \include "larsen-symbols.ily"
>>
>> \header {
>>   tagline = ""  % removed
>> }
>>
>> \header {tagline = ""}
>>
>> {
>> \numericTimeSignature
>> \time 3/8
>> g'4.\cut^\markup {\tiny Cut } | g'4.\strike^\markup {\tiny Strike } |
>> }
>>
>>
>
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Re: SVG enormous fonts issue

[Robert Hickman]

This issue seems to be Firefox specific. Other SVG examples, such as those
on w3schools, do not exhibit this issue in firefox.

On 16 April 2018 at 16:58, Robert Hickman  wrote:

> Fonts in SVG do not seem to respect font sizes, see attached SVG, for me
> this displays with enormous fonts that go off the top of the page. It works
> as intended in the PDF back end.
>
> \version "2.18.2"
> \include "larsen-symbols.ily"
>
> \header {
>   tagline = ""  % removed
> }
>
> \header {tagline = ""}
>
> {
> \numericTimeSignature
> \time 3/8
> g'4.\cut^\markup {\tiny Cut } | g'4.\strike^\markup {\tiny Strike } |
> }
>
>
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SVG enormous fonts issue

[Robert Hickman]

Fonts in SVG do not seem to respect font sizes, see attached SVG, for me
this displays with enormous fonts that go off the top of the page. It works
as intended in the PDF back end.

\version "2.18.2"
\include "larsen-symbols.ily"

\header {
  tagline = ""  % removed
}

\header {tagline = ""}

{
\numericTimeSignature
\time 3/8
g'4.\cut^\markup {\tiny Cut } | g'4.\strike^\markup {\tiny Strike } |
}
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

These symbols do not work in safe mode.

On 15 April 2018 at 17:32, Thomas Morley  wrote:

> 2018-04-15 18:22 GMT+02:00 Robert Hickman :
> > ok, the latest compiled version seems to be 2.19.80
>
> 2.19.81
>
> http://lilypond.org/downloads/binaries/linux-64/
>
> Cheers,
>   Harm
>
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

ok, the latest compiled version seems to be 2.19.80

On 15 April 2018 at 16:58, Andrew Bernard  wrote:

> Strongly recommend using 2.19.81, especially if I am going to help you out
> extending this symbol code library. The wording of unstable on the website
> is open source over modesty, a conventional trope. The latest releases are
> very stable, and I bang away at them all day on very very complex scores
> and even I cant crash them. There are lots of new features in the 2.19
> series that I cannot imagine not wanting to have.
>
> The Ubuntu repo is stuck at the nominated stable release. Just download
> from lilypond.org.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On 16 April 2018 at 01:50, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>
>> -dpreview does what I want.
>>
>> I have version 2.18 and it looks like -dcrop was added later. using
>> ubuntu16.4 stock repo.
>>
>>
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Re: Automatically set the page size to fit the music

[Robert Hickman]

Hi Paul,

I'm using 2.18 but -dpreview seems to do what I want.

On 15 April 2018 at 16:41, Paul Morris  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 04/15/2018 10:56 AM, Robert Hickman wrote:
> > I'm trying to set the page size so that it automatically
> > matches the size of the staff with zero margins.
>
> Take a look at "One-page page breaking" and "One-line-auto-height page
> breaking":
>
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/page-br
> eaking#index-ly_003aone_002dpage_002dbreaking
>
> These features are in LilyPond 2.19 (not in LilyPond 2.18).
>
> (Changed subject from "Defining custom symbols".)
>
> -Paul
>
>
>
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

-dpreview does what I want.

I have version 2.18 and it looks like -dcrop was added later. using
ubuntu16.4 stock repo.

On 15 April 2018 at 16:38, Robert Hickman  wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> lilypond -dcrop larsen-symbols-test.ly
>
> dosn't seem to do anything.
>
> On 15 April 2018 at 16:25, Andrew Bernard 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> Not sure what you want re size but lilypond -dcrop will make a cropped
>> image.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 April 2018 at 01:20, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not setting the size to "quarto", I'm asking basically how to
>>> disable fixed page sizing. I want the output to be like the attached image,
>>> zero white-space. I made this by cropping the image in gimp, doing that for
>>> every one would be a nightmare.
>>>
>>
>
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

Hi Andrew,

lilypond -dcrop larsen-symbols-test.ly

dosn't seem to do anything.

On 15 April 2018 at 16:25, Andrew Bernard  wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> Not sure what you want re size but lilypond -dcrop will make a cropped
> image.
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On 16 April 2018 at 01:20, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>
>> I'm not setting the size to "quarto", I'm asking basically how to
>> disable fixed page sizing. I want the output to be like the attached image,
>> zero white-space. I made this by cropping the image in gimp, doing that for
>> every one would be a nightmare.
>>
>
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

I'm not setting the size to "quarto", I'm asking basically how to disable
fixed page sizing. I want the output to be like the attached image, zero
white-space. I made this by cropping the image in gimp, doing that for
every one would be a nightmare.

\version "2.18.2"
\include "larsen-symbols.ily"

{
\numericTimeSignature
\time 2/2

g'2\cut | g'2\strike |
}



On 15 April 2018 at 16:15, Thomas Morley  wrote:

> 2018-04-15 16:56 GMT+02:00 Robert Hickman :
> > I'm trying to set the page size so that it automatically
> > matches the size of the staff with zero margins. Looking
> > at the documentation on this shows the following command,
> >
> > but I cannot see how to set it to scale 'as big or small
> > as needed'. The section on automatic scaling isn't clear
> > as this appears to relate to internal operation of the software,
> >
> > not to automatically scaling the size of the page..
> >
> >
> > #(set-default-paper-size "quarto")
> >
> > Attached is what I'm currently getting, with a large amount
> >
> > of empty space.
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty sure the attached pdf isn't "quarto".
>
> Could you share your code?
>
> Cheers,
>   Harm
>
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

I'm trying to set the page size so that it automatically
matches the size of the staff with zero margins. Looking
at the documentation on this shows the following command,

but I cannot see how to set it to scale 'as big or small
as needed'. The section on automatic scaling isn't clear
as this appears to relate to internal operation of the software,

not to automatically scaling the size of the page..


#(set-default-paper-size "quarto")

Attached is what I'm currently getting, with a large amount

of empty space.



On 15 April 2018 at 11:49, Robert Hickman  wrote:

> Cool, I hope you do well with it.
>
> On 15 April 2018 at 11:46, Andrew Bernard 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> That symbol set is so nice I have decided to dig out my tin whistle and
>> learn it properly!
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>


larsen-symbols-test.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: numeric time signature (was Defining custom symbols)

[Robert Hickman]

Thanks, I have been reading the documentation, but missed that the example
was wrong.

On 15 April 2018 at 14:54, Andrew Bernard  wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> You can search the lilypond user mailing list archives. There is a large
> amount of discussion on this topic.
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On 15 April 2018 at 23:13, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> What option do I need to crop the output to the size of the score,
>> getting rid of the blank page area?
>>
>
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Re: numeric time signature (was Defining custom symbols)

[Robert Hickman]

Hello again,

I've just downloaded the symbol repo and have been experimenting. I Noticed
that the time signature set in the file is not reflected in the output
(using the example from the repo). It displays common time 'C' instead of
2/4.  Adding \numericTimeSignature causes it to create a second blank score
at the top of the output.

What option do I need to crop the output to the size of the score, getting
rid of the blank page area?

\version "2.18.2"
\include "larsen-symbols.ily"

\numericTimeSignature
\time 2/4

{
b'2\cut
b'\strike
b'\slideUp
b'\slideDown
b'\longRoll
b'\shortRoll
b'\longDoubleCutRoll
b'\shortDoubleCutRoll
b'\crann
b'\shortCrann
b'\trill
b'\singleTrill
b'\shake
b'\breathe

  }


On 15 April 2018 at 11:49, Robert Hickman  wrote:

> Cool, I hope you do well with it.
>
> On 15 April 2018 at 11:46, Andrew Bernard 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> That symbol set is so nice I have decided to dig out my tin whistle and
>> learn it properly!
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>
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Re: LilyPond in a CMS [was: Re: Defining custom symbols]

[Robert Hickman]

good to know, thanks.

On 15 April 2018 at 13:06, Urs Liska  wrote:

>
>
> Am 15. April 2018 13:47:43 MESZ schrieb Simon Albrecht <
> simon.albre...@mail.de>:
> >On 15.04.2018 13:25, Robert Hickman wrote:
> >> |Is it sufficient to concatenate the symbol file at the beginning of
> >> the user code?|
> >
> >\include does exactly that: read the contents of the included file
> >verbatim.
>
> That means: yes, you can prohibit the use of \include and instead include
> some (safe) code before it even reaches LilyPond.
>
> Urs
>
> >
> >Best, Simon
> >
> >___
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> >lilypond-user@gnu.org
> >https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
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Re: LilyPond in a CMS [was: Re: Defining custom symbols]

[Robert Hickman]

Thanks, -dsafe looks like the simplest to use but 'In addition, safe mode
disallows \include' which I need to use the symbol file. Is it sufficient
to concatenate the symbol file at the beginning of the user code?


On 15 April 2018 at 11:45, Malte Meyn  wrote:

>
>
> Am 15.04.2018 um 12:41 schrieb Robert Hickman:
>
>> Second thought: (see my previous, sorry about double posting).
>>
>> What are the risks of integrating lillypond into a CMS from a security
>> perspective, does it allow you to run shell commands for instance? I will
>> not be exposing this publicly, just to the admin interface only I use. I
>> like to know what exploits anything I use could expose howeaver.
>>
>
> Have a look at the options --jail and -dsafe at
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/usage-big-page.html
>
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

Cool, I hope you do well with it.

On 15 April 2018 at 11:46, Andrew Bernard  wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> That symbol set is so nice I have decided to dig out my tin whistle and
> learn it properly!
>
> Andrew
>
>
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

Second thought: (see my previous, sorry about double posting).

What are the risks of integrating lillypond into a CMS from a security
perspective, does it allow you to run shell commands for instance? I will
not be exposing this publicly, just to the admin interface only I use. I
like to know what exploits anything I use could expose howeaver.

On 15 April 2018 at 11:31, Robert Hickman  wrote:

> Yes that looks good thanks. I asked about the font because I asked Grey if
> he was aware of symbols for lillypond. He handn't heard of LP but mentioned
> the font and asked if it was compatible.
>
> On 15 April 2018 at 11:20, Andrew Bernard 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> I cloned the git repository and compiled the Larsen symbols. I all works
>> beautifully with the current highest revision of lilypond 2.19.81, even
>> though the code is somewhat old.
>>
>> Here's the result of the test code attached as an image.
>>
>> The code fr this is not hard to understand:
>>
>> 
>>
>> \version "2.19.81"
>> \include "larsen-symbols.ily"
>>
>>   \time 2/4
>>   {
>>
>> b'2\cut
>> b'\strike
>> b'\slideUp
>> b'\slideDown
>> b'\longRoll
>> b'\shortRoll
>> b'\longDoubleCutRoll
>> b'\shortDoubleCutRoll
>> b'\crann
>> b'\shortCrann
>> b'\trill
>> b'\singleTrill
>> b'\shake
>> b'\breathe
>>   }
>>
>> 
>>
>> I'd really recommend you go with lilypond as it is incredibly powerful -
>> witness this extension as an example - and it does not take long to learn
>> the basics.
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> On 15 April 2018 at 20:07, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>>
>>> Yes that's what I was looking for, thanks.
>>>
>>> I've also found that Grey has published a font with his symbols, how
>>> does one approach integrating fonts? Chris Throup, who  is linked to from
>>> the page  Andrew shared linked  to, suggests this is difficult to do.
>>>
>>> On 15 April 2018 at 06:22, Andrew Bernard 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Robert,
>>>>
>>>> Is this of any use?
>>>>
>>>> https://bretpimentel.com/irish-flutewhistle-ornamentation-sy
>>>> mbols-a-la-grey-larsen-in-lilypond/
>>>>
>>>> If you need adjustments to anything I can help.
>>>>
>>>> [Lilypond can be made to do pretty much anything as it is powerfully
>>>> extensible,]
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

Yes that looks good thanks. I asked about the font because I asked Grey if
he was aware of symbols for lillypond. He handn't heard of LP but mentioned
the font and asked if it was compatible.

On 15 April 2018 at 11:20, Andrew Bernard  wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> I cloned the git repository and compiled the Larsen symbols. I all works
> beautifully with the current highest revision of lilypond 2.19.81, even
> though the code is somewhat old.
>
> Here's the result of the test code attached as an image.
>
> The code fr this is not hard to understand:
>
> 
>
> \version "2.19.81"
> \include "larsen-symbols.ily"
>
>   \time 2/4
>   {
>
> b'2\cut
> b'\strike
> b'\slideUp
> b'\slideDown
> b'\longRoll
> b'\shortRoll
> b'\longDoubleCutRoll
> b'\shortDoubleCutRoll
> b'\crann
> b'\shortCrann
> b'\trill
> b'\singleTrill
> b'\shake
> b'\breathe
>   }
>
> 
>
> I'd really recommend you go with lilypond as it is incredibly powerful -
> witness this extension as an example - and it does not take long to learn
> the basics.
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On 15 April 2018 at 20:07, Robert Hickman  wrote:
>
>> Yes that's what I was looking for, thanks.
>>
>> I've also found that Grey has published a font with his symbols, how does
>> one approach integrating fonts? Chris Throup, who  is linked to from the
>> page  Andrew shared linked  to, suggests this is difficult to do.
>>
>> On 15 April 2018 at 06:22, Andrew Bernard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>>
>>> Is this of any use?
>>>
>>> https://bretpimentel.com/irish-flutewhistle-ornamentation-sy
>>> mbols-a-la-grey-larsen-in-lilypond/
>>>
>>> If you need adjustments to anything I can help.
>>>
>>> [Lilypond can be made to do pretty much anything as it is powerfully
>>> extensible,]
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

Yes that's what I was looking for, thanks.

I've also found that Grey has published a font with his symbols, how does
one approach integrating fonts? Chris Throup, who  is linked to from the
page  Andrew shared linked  to, suggests this is difficult to do.

On 15 April 2018 at 06:22, Andrew Bernard  wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> Is this of any use?
>
> https://bretpimentel.com/irish-flutewhistle-ornamentation-symbols-a-la-
> grey-larsen-in-lilypond/
>
> If you need adjustments to anything I can help.
>
> [Lilypond can be made to do pretty much anything as it is powerfully
> extensible,]
>
> Andrew
>
>
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Defining custom symbols

[Robert Hickman]

I'm currently using ABC notation for all of the score examples on my
website and converting it to notation using abcm2ps. I have run into a
limitation with it and need something more flexible. However I still wish
to use a textual notation and do not want to hand edit images as this would
make things much harder to change in the future.

In order for lillypond to be a viable option I need some custom symbols,
the most critical being the Irish roll symbol, which is an arch, like a
fermata without the dot.  I've seen that lillypond can use snippets of
postscript, however I do not want to learn postscript just to get this
finished. Is it possible to define these externally, such as an svg file,
and include them?

I am discussing the different ways of notating the finger articulations
used in Irish and other trad music so cannot substitute the symbol. Note
that an Irish roll and a turn are not the same. It would be useful to
define a number of other symbols, including the ones used in Grey Larson's
whistle notation.
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