Re: Bar numbers position
Keith OHara wrote In the file scm/define-grobs.scm that is part of the distributed LilyPond, there is a comment just before the setting that determines where the bar number should go ;; want the bar number before the clef at line start. (break-align-symbols . (left-edge staff-bar)) indicating that some thought went into the choice, which might indicate that the choice was not obvious. Thanks for sharing this information; as you say, it indeed shows that there was some thought behind this decision. Keith OHara wrote It is the (unavoidably?) complicated method for setting objects on things that might be line-breaks. \override Score.BarNumber #'break-align-symbols = #'(left-edge) % or maybe you prefer #'(staff-bar clef) \override Score.BarNumber #'self-alignment-X = #LEFT \override Score.Clef #'break-align-anchor-alignment = #LEFT Well, I don't think this is particularly complicated. Maybe it would be interesting to add some example to the snippet repository, which might be useful to other users who might be interested on this. This is how I usually write my bar numbers: bar_numbers_(italic,_small,_to_the_right).ly http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n153853/bar_numbers_%28italic%2C_small%2C_to_the_right%29.ly And I will add this code to the repository later. Thanks for your reply and take care, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Bar-numbers-position-tp153274p153853.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Bar numbers position
On 11/10/2013 09:40 PM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: Hi Janek, Janek Warchoł wrote ...i believe the barnumbers in the engraved examples interfere with clefs. I've seen some scores where similarly placed barnumbers looked like clef transposition (especially when the first bar in a system was 8th or 15th, and the number was placed right above the clef...). I believe that LilyPond's placement has the advantage of being unambiguous. I think you are right on this, it seems very logical. I only pointed it out because I never saw this style of bar numbers before. [\\] [...] I would be very glad to hear what you [Peter] and Ms. Gould think about it (I really need to buy this book as soon as possible!). There's no scan this time. What she writes is this: Place bar numbers at the beginning of each system, ideally above the clef of the top stave. Naturally she wouldn't approve of a solution where the bar numbers could be confused with clef transposition. Best Peter ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Bar numbers position
On 11/11/2013 09:28 AM, Peter Bjuhr wrote: What she writes is this: Place bar numbers at the beginning of each system, ideally above the clef of the top stave. The above quote is from p. 484 by the way... Best Peter ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Bar numbers position
Peter Bjuhr wrote There's no scan this time. What she writes is this: Place bar numbers at the beginning of each system, ideally above the clef of the top stave. Naturally she wouldn't approve of a solution where the bar numbers could be confused with clef transposition. Hi Peter, thanks for the information (and for all scans/quotes from Gould). I agree that she would not approve a solution that confuses with clef transposition, but above the clef of the top stave is not what LilyPond is doing, is it? Look at the solution that the Sibelius software uses: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n153706/sibelius.png IMO, there is no confusion between what is a bar number and what is a transposition. And its solution respects what 99% of all other scores and engravers do (at least, I could still not find a single example of LilyPond's style of bar numbering anywhere else). Take care! Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Bar-numbers-position-tp153274p153706.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Bar numbers position
2013/11/11 Gilberto Agostinho gilbertohasn...@gmail.com: I agree that she would not approve a solution that confuses with clef transposition, but above the clef of the top stave is not what LilyPond is doing, is it? Look at the solution that the Sibelius software uses: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n153706/sibelius.png Do you realize that saying sibelius is doing x will make many LilyPond devs think let's make sure LilyPond doesn't do x, because sibelius cannot possibly be right!? ;-) IMO, there is no confusion between what is a bar number and what is a transposition. And its solution respects what 99% of all other scores and engravers do (at least, I could still not find a single example of LilyPond's style of bar numbering anywhere else). Indeed, when done properly this style of numbering shouldn't be confused with clef transposition. However, i agree with what David said in the other thread about LilyPond's barnumber positions being easier to see; as i don't think that Lilypond's way of placing barnumbers is wrong (i.e. it doesn't make scores difficult to read) i would keep it that way even if everyone else do it differently. Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Bar numbers position
Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: 2013/11/11 Gilberto Agostinho gilbertohasn...@gmail.com: I agree that she would not approve a solution that confuses with clef transposition, but above the clef of the top stave is not what LilyPond is doing, is it? Look at the solution that the Sibelius software uses: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n153706/sibelius.png Do you realize that saying sibelius is doing x will make many LilyPond devs think let's make sure LilyPond doesn't do x, because sibelius cannot possibly be right!? ;-) No idea about that. I think Finale does x is worse in that respect. At any rate, I find picture 1 fine, and the following pictures ugh. Not ambiguous, but awkward. If I were not allowed as an engraver to place the bar numbers to the left outside of the general inking area, I'd probably move them to the right of the clef. Which is still awful, but less so. At any rate, reason enough to _omit_ the clef modifier altogether. Or refuse typesetting for treble recorder. Some people would consider you a hero for that. At any rate, you'll probably be hard put to find treble recorder notes with correct clef, and the traditional bar number placement might be part of the reason. Indeed, when done properly this style of numbering shouldn't be confused with clef transposition. However, i agree with what David said in the other thread about LilyPond's barnumber positions being easier to see; as i don't think that Lilypond's way of placing barnumbers is wrong (i.e. it doesn't make scores difficult to read) i would keep it that way even if everyone else do it differently. But stay within inking box is important enough that we should at least have some standard command for that. Do we? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Bar numbers position
Here is a short example of LilyPond's default bar numbers (left) and my personal tweaks (right). http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n153633/bar_no.png Now compare LilyPond's default output of bar numbers with these examples from our own Essay ( http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/essay-big-page ): Bach's Cello Suite, Bärenreiter BA 320, ©1950: http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/pictures/baer-suite1-fullpage.png Bach's Cello Suite, Henle no. 666, ©2000: http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/pictures/henle-suite1-fullpage.png Bach’s Fugue in G minor from the Well-Tempered Clavier, Book I, BWV 861, Bärenreiter BA5070 (Neue Ausgabe Sämtlicher Werke, Serie V, Band 6.1, 1989): http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/pictures/bwv861-baer-small.png -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Bar-numbers-position-tp153274p153633.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Bar numbers position
2013/11/2 Gilberto Agostinho gilbertohasn...@gmail.com: Hello all, Today, while searching for scores at Mutopia, I came across this one produced in LilyPond 2.9.9: http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/BWV849/bwv849b/bwv849b-a4.pdf http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/BWV849/bwv849b/bwv849b.ly What intrigued me here is the position of the bar numbers. [] So my question(s) is(are): why there was a change in the bar number position between these two LilyPond versions? And why the decision of having them to the left and not to the right of this vertical line? Does anyone know if there is any standards related to this? I don't know what was the reason for the change, but... 2013/11/10 Gilberto Agostinho gilbertohasn...@gmail.com: Now compare LilyPond's default output of bar numbers with these examples from our own Essay ( http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/essay-big-page ): Bach's Cello Suite, Bärenreiter BA 320, ©1950: http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/pictures/baer-suite1-fullpage.png Bach's Cello Suite, Henle no. 666, ©2000: http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/pictures/henle-suite1-fullpage.png Bach’s Fugue in G minor from the Well-Tempered Clavier, Book I, BWV 861, Bärenreiter BA5070 (Neue Ausgabe Sämtlicher Werke, Serie V, Band 6.1, 1989): http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/pictures/bwv861-baer-small.png ...i believe the barnumbers in the engraved examples interfere with clefs. I've seen some scores where similarly placed barnumbers looked like clef transposition (especially when the first bar in a system was 8th or 15th, and the number was placed right above the clef...). I believe that LilyPond's placement has the advantage of being unambiguous. best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Bar numbers position
Hi Janek, Janek Warchoł wrote ...i believe the barnumbers in the engraved examples interfere with clefs. I've seen some scores where similarly placed barnumbers looked like clef transposition (especially when the first bar in a system was 8th or 15th, and the number was placed right above the clef...). I believe that LilyPond's placement has the advantage of being unambiguous. I think you are right on this, it seems very logical. I only pointed it out because I never saw this style of bar numbers before. Take care, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Bar-numbers-position-tp153274p153673.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Bar numbers position
Hello all, Today, while searching for scores at Mutopia, I came across this one produced in LilyPond 2.9.9: http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/BWV849/bwv849b/bwv849b-a4.pdf http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/BWV849/bwv849b/bwv849b.ly What intrigued me here is the position of the bar numbers. As far as I could tell, there is no tweak of the bar number position in that code, and yet they seem to be positioned slightly to the right when compared to the current version of LilyPond. When compiling the same code with LilyPond 2.17.29, I get the usual look of bar numbers being anchored exactly to the left of the first vertical line of a system (I don't know how to call it, but I guess you all know what I mean). Still on this subject: the other day I was showing some of my LilyPond scores to a professor of music who works in a publishing house, and he said that what stroke him immediately was the position of the bar numbers. He thinks that they should be to the right of the already mentioned vertical line (as a side note, he was very impressed with the quality of LilyPond's output and its font). So my question(s) is(are): why there was a change in the bar number position between these two LilyPond versions? And why the decision of having them to the left and not to the right of this vertical line? Does anyone know if there is any standards related to this? And in case anyone is wondering, I do know how to tweak the bar numbers. I am not looking for a solution here, I just wanted to discuss this subject. Take care, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Bar-numbers-position-tp153274.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
