Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Keith OHara]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2014 12:28:54 -0800, Knute Snortum  wrote:


* Is there a way to keep this structure and get rid of the warning?


The warning is about being unable to fit the beam between the notes, because 
you forced the stem directions in such a way to force the beam between the 
staves
LilyPond usually sets the staff spacing based on everything that doesn't cross 
staves, and then decides whether to 'knee' the cross-staff beam depending on 
how far apart the staves are.

In this case it does look nicer with the knee, and once the rest of the music 
is in place the staves will be spaced apart, anyway.  You'll want the dynamics 
to clear the beam, for example, and adding this spreads the staves.

upperStaffTop = \relative c'' {
 \clef bass
 s8. \once\override DynamicLineSpanner.staff-padding = #4
 s16\< s8\ff s }
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-keyboards#changing-staff-manually


* The initial e flat in the lower staff is an eighth note, and the stem
needs to extend up beyond the 32nd note beams of the grace notes.


Why? The beam slope changes there, so the notation is clear in any case.
When you open up the staves it might look like you want.  Otherwise, it 
involves looking up 'beam-positions' in the manual, and tweaking.
If you tweak the layout before all the notes are in, you and LilyPond are going 
to be second-guessing each other for a long time.


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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Knute Snortum]

I'm still working on the measure.  Keith's solution works well, but when I
fit it into my structure I get a beam-slope warning.  Below is a "minimal"
example, which is quite large, that prints just the one measure.  The
warning is written into the code.

* Is there a way to keep this structure and get rid of the warning?
* The initial e flat in the lower staff is an eighth note, and the stem
needs to extend up beyond the 32nd note beams of the grace notes.  How can
I do that?

Thanks for the help so far.

%%--- Start
\version "2.19.15"
\language "english"

staffUp = \change Staff = "upper"
staffDown = \change Staff = "lower"
graceOn = {
  \teeny
  \override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
  \override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
}
graceOff = {
  \normalsize
  \revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
  \revert Stem  #'length-fraction
}

global = {
  \key bf \minor
  \time 2/4
}

upperStaffTop = \relative c'' {
  \clef bass
  s2
}

upperStaffBottom = \relative c' {
}

lowerStaffTop = \relative c' {
  \clef bass
  \staffUp \stemDown af32 [ ( bf af gf \staffDown \stemNeutral
  <<
{
  \voiceTwo \stemUp ef8 ) ] ~ ef4
}
\new Voice {
  \voiceOne
  \scaleDurations 4/14 {
\staffDown
ef32 [ \( % warning: no viable initial configuration found:
  % may not find good beam slope
\graceOn gf af bf df \staffUp \stemDown \clef treble ef gf af bf df
]
\stemUp ef gf af bf \graceOff
  }
  \stemNeutral df16^> ( [ bf ] ) \) r8
}
  >>
}

lowerStaffBottom = \relative c {
  bf2
}

%%
%% Below is boilerplate
%%

upperStaff = {
  \clef treble
  \global
  <<
\new Voice { \voiceOne \upperStaffTop }
\new Voice { \voiceTwo \upperStaffBottom }
  >>
}

lowerStaff = {
  \clef bass
  \global
  <<
\new Voice { \voiceThree \lowerStaffTop }
\new Voice { \voiceFour \lowerStaffBottom }
  >>
}

\score {
  \new PianoStaff <<
\new Staff = "upper" \upperStaff
\new Staff = "lower" \lowerStaff
  >>
  \layout{
  }
}
%%--- End


Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Keith OHara  wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 07:44:39 -0800, Knute Snortum 
> wrote:
>
>  I've attached a picture of the measure.  [Debussy Prelude #2, "Voiles"]
>>
>
> This piece uses a whole-tone scale (not in the part with the cross-staff
> grace notes of Knute's example, but most of the rest of the piece) so I
> would be tempted to print a version of this with
>
>   wholeTone = #`(
>(0 . ,NATURAL) (1 . ,NATURAL) (2 . ,NATURAL)
>(3 . ,SHARP) (4 . ,SHARP) (5 . ,FLAT) (6 . ,FLAT))
>
>   \key c\wholeTone
>
> and see if it is easier to read with all the accidentals moved into a key
> signature.
>
>
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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Keith OHara]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 07:44:39 -0800, Knute Snortum  wrote:


I've attached a picture of the measure.  [Debussy Prelude #2, "Voiles"]


This piece uses a whole-tone scale (not in the part with the cross-staff grace 
notes of Knute's example, but most of the rest of the piece) so I would be 
tempted to print a version of this with

  wholeTone = #`(
   (0 . ,NATURAL) (1 . ,NATURAL) (2 . ,NATURAL)
   (3 . ,SHARP) (4 . ,SHARP) (5 . ,FLAT) (6 . ,FLAT))

  \key c\wholeTone

and see if it is easier to read with all the accidentals moved into a key 
signature.


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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Shane Brandes]

a short snippet for educational use constitutes fair use.

S.

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Knute Snortum  wrote:
> You are correct; the original is missing a treble clef.  I am using an early
> edition that has passed into public domain to transcribe, but so far I've
> found three errors in the score.  I'm using a later edition to double check
> from but I'm still transcribing from the earlier one so my transcription is
> free of any copyright.  I should have using the later edition for the
> example.
>
>
> Knute Snortum
> (via Gmail)
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:56 AM, Rutger Hofman  wrote:
>>
>> Is the original correct? I would guess that a treble clef has been
>> forgotten in the upper staff, at the moment the staff is crossed in the
>> "grace note" run. How else can the run, and especially the cross-staff
>> chords in the last four 1/32 notes make sense?
>>
>> Rutger
>>
>> On 11/29/2014 07:49 PM, Knute Snortum wrote:
>>>
>>> Ah, I see.  Use two voices so one is the eighth note and the other is
>>> the grace notes with their duration divided over the eighth.  This also
>>> gets me the slur.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>> Knute Snortum
>>> (via Gmail)
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Keith OHara >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 07:44:39 -0800, Knute Snortum
>>> mailto:ksnor...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you both for your relies.  Keith, your second suggestion
>>> is what I
>>> need, if I could designate a zero length note.
>>>
>>> Requirements:
>>>
>>> * An actual eighth note
>>> * Grace notes need to "attached" with a beam to the eighth note
>>> * Grace notes add no duration to the measure
>>>
>>> I've attached a picture of the measure.  It has a lot of
>>> challenges in it
>>> for me.
>>>
>>>
>>> These small notes are not what LilyPond's \grace was designed for,
>>> but more like the small-note tuplet that Harm pointed out.  We want
>>> these note to be spaced across the beat, but more quickly than their
>>> visible duration.
>>>
>>> LilyPond will do most of the beaming you want if you tell her how
>>> the music splits into two voices at the E-flat.  Ignoring the fact
>>> that there are two staves for the moment, try something like this:
>>>
>>> \version "2.18.2"
>>> {
>>>\key des\major \clef bass \time 2/4
>>>aes32 bes aes ges
>>><<
>>>  {\voiceTwo ees8 ~ ees4 |}
>>>  \new Voice {
>>>\voiceOne
>>>\scaleDurations 4/14 {
>>>  ees32[
>>>  \teeny
>>>  \override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
>>>  \override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
>>>  ges aes bes des' ges, bes, c  des f] ges[ bes c' des']
>>>  \normalsize
>>>  \revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
>>>  \revert Stem  #'length-fraction
>>>}
>>>f'16-> des'
>>>c32 des c bes,| } >> }
>>>
>>> We should probably put a Debussy example in the user manual (if he's
>>> in public domain in europe by now) and also make a shorthand for
>>> \graceStyleOn \graceStyleOff because often we want the style but do
>>> not want LilyPond's \grace timing.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Knute Snortum]

You are correct; the original is missing a treble clef.  I am using an
early edition that has passed into public domain to transcribe, but so far
I've found three errors in the score.  I'm using a later edition to double
check from but I'm still transcribing from the earlier one so my
transcription is free of any copyright.  I should have using the later
edition for the example.


Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:56 AM, Rutger Hofman  wrote:

> Is the original correct? I would guess that a treble clef has been
> forgotten in the upper staff, at the moment the staff is crossed in the
> "grace note" run. How else can the run, and especially the cross-staff
> chords in the last four 1/32 notes make sense?
>
> Rutger
>
> On 11/29/2014 07:49 PM, Knute Snortum wrote:
>
>> Ah, I see.  Use two voices so one is the eighth note and the other is
>> the grace notes with their duration divided over the eighth.  This also
>> gets me the slur.  Thank you.
>>
>>
>> Knute Snortum
>> (via Gmail)
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Keith OHara > > wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 07:44:39 -0800, Knute Snortum
>> mailto:ksnor...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you both for your relies.  Keith, your second suggestion
>> is what I
>> need, if I could designate a zero length note.
>>
>> Requirements:
>>
>> * An actual eighth note
>> * Grace notes need to "attached" with a beam to the eighth note
>> * Grace notes add no duration to the measure
>>
>> I've attached a picture of the measure.  It has a lot of
>> challenges in it
>> for me.
>>
>>
>> These small notes are not what LilyPond's \grace was designed for,
>> but more like the small-note tuplet that Harm pointed out.  We want
>> these note to be spaced across the beat, but more quickly than their
>> visible duration.
>>
>> LilyPond will do most of the beaming you want if you tell her how
>> the music splits into two voices at the E-flat.  Ignoring the fact
>> that there are two staves for the moment, try something like this:
>>
>> \version "2.18.2"
>> {
>>\key des\major \clef bass \time 2/4
>>aes32 bes aes ges
>><<
>>  {\voiceTwo ees8 ~ ees4 |}
>>  \new Voice {
>>\voiceOne
>>\scaleDurations 4/14 {
>>  ees32[
>>  \teeny
>>  \override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
>>  \override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
>>  ges aes bes des' ges, bes, c  des f] ges[ bes c' des']
>>  \normalsize
>>  \revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
>>  \revert Stem  #'length-fraction
>>}
>>f'16-> des'
>>c32 des c bes,| } >> }
>>
>> We should probably put a Debussy example in the user manual (if he's
>> in public domain in europe by now) and also make a shorthand for
>> \graceStyleOn \graceStyleOff because often we want the style but do
>> not want LilyPond's \grace timing.
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Rutger Hofman]

On 11/29/2014 07:49 PM, Knute Snortum wrote:

Ah, I see.  Use two voices so one is the eighth note and the other is
the grace notes with their duration divided over the eighth.  This also
gets me the slur.  Thank you.


Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Keith OHara mailto:k-ohara5...@oco.net>> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 07:44:39 -0800, Knute Snortum
mailto:ksnor...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Thank you both for your relies.  Keith, your second suggestion
is what I
need, if I could designate a zero length note.

Requirements:

* An actual eighth note
* Grace notes need to "attached" with a beam to the eighth note
* Grace notes add no duration to the measure

I've attached a picture of the measure.  It has a lot of
challenges in it
for me.


Is the original correct? I would guess that a treble clef has been
forgotten in the upper staff, at the moment the staff is crossed in the
"grace note" run. How else can the run, and especially the cross-staff
chords in the last four 1/32 notes make sense?

Rutger

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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Rutger Hofman]

Is the original correct? I would guess that a treble clef has been 
forgotten in the upper staff, at the moment the staff is crossed in the 
"grace note" run. How else can the run, and especially the cross-staff 
chords in the last four 1/32 notes make sense?


Rutger

On 11/29/2014 07:49 PM, Knute Snortum wrote:

Ah, I see.  Use two voices so one is the eighth note and the other is
the grace notes with their duration divided over the eighth.  This also
gets me the slur.  Thank you.


Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Keith OHara mailto:k-ohara5...@oco.net>> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 07:44:39 -0800, Knute Snortum
mailto:ksnor...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Thank you both for your relies.  Keith, your second suggestion
is what I
need, if I could designate a zero length note.

Requirements:

* An actual eighth note
* Grace notes need to "attached" with a beam to the eighth note
* Grace notes add no duration to the measure

I've attached a picture of the measure.  It has a lot of
challenges in it
for me.


These small notes are not what LilyPond's \grace was designed for,
but more like the small-note tuplet that Harm pointed out.  We want
these note to be spaced across the beat, but more quickly than their
visible duration.

LilyPond will do most of the beaming you want if you tell her how
the music splits into two voices at the E-flat.  Ignoring the fact
that there are two staves for the moment, try something like this:

\version "2.18.2"
{
   \key des\major \clef bass \time 2/4
   aes32 bes aes ges
   <<
 {\voiceTwo ees8 ~ ees4 |}
 \new Voice {
   \voiceOne
   \scaleDurations 4/14 {
 ees32[
 \teeny
 \override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
 \override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
 ges aes bes des' ges, bes, c  des f] ges[ bes c' des']
 \normalsize
 \revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
 \revert Stem  #'length-fraction
   }
   f'16-> des'
   c32 des c bes,| } >> }

We should probably put a Debussy example in the user manual (if he's
in public domain in europe by now) and also make a shorthand for
\graceStyleOn \graceStyleOff because often we want the style but do
not want LilyPond's \grace timing.





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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Knute Snortum]

Ah, I see.  Use two voices so one is the eighth note and the other is the
grace notes with their duration divided over the eighth.  This also gets me
the slur.  Thank you.


Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Keith OHara  wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 07:44:39 -0800, Knute Snortum 
> wrote:
>
>  Thank you both for your relies.  Keith, your second suggestion is what I
>> need, if I could designate a zero length note.
>>
>> Requirements:
>>
>> * An actual eighth note
>> * Grace notes need to "attached" with a beam to the eighth note
>> * Grace notes add no duration to the measure
>>
>> I've attached a picture of the measure.  It has a lot of challenges in it
>> for me.
>>
>>
> These small notes are not what LilyPond's \grace was designed for, but
> more like the small-note tuplet that Harm pointed out.  We want these note
> to be spaced across the beat, but more quickly than their visible duration.
>
> LilyPond will do most of the beaming you want if you tell her how the
> music splits into two voices at the E-flat.  Ignoring the fact that there
> are two staves for the moment, try something like this:
>
> \version "2.18.2"
> {
>   \key des\major \clef bass \time 2/4
>   aes32 bes aes ges
>   <<
> {\voiceTwo ees8 ~ ees4 |}
> \new Voice {
>   \voiceOne
>   \scaleDurations 4/14 {
> ees32[
> \teeny
> \override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
> \override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
> ges aes bes des' ges, bes, c  des f] ges[ bes c' des']
> \normalsize
> \revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
> \revert Stem  #'length-fraction
>   }
>   f'16-> des'
>   c32 des c bes,| } >> }
>
> We should probably put a Debussy example in the user manual (if he's in
> public domain in europe by now) and also make a shorthand for \graceStyleOn
> \graceStyleOff because often we want the style but do not want LilyPond's
> \grace timing.
>
>
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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Urs Liska]

Am 29. November 2014 19:31:22 MEZ, schrieb Keith OHara :
>On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 07:44:39 -0800, Knute Snortum 
>wrote:
>
>> Thank you both for your relies.  Keith, your second suggestion is
>what I
>> need, if I could designate a zero length note.
>>
>> Requirements:
>>
>> * An actual eighth note
>> * Grace notes need to "attached" with a beam to the eighth note
>> * Grace notes add no duration to the measure
>>
>> I've attached a picture of the measure.  It has a lot of challenges
>in it
>> for me.
>>
>
>These small notes are not what LilyPond's \grace was designed for, but
>more like the small-note tuplet that Harm pointed out.  We want these
>note to be spaced across the beat, but more quickly than their visible
>duration.
>
>LilyPond will do most of the beaming you want if you tell her how the
>music splits into two voices at the E-flat.  Ignoring the fact that
>there are two staves for the moment, try something like this:
>
>\version "2.18.2"
>{
>   \key des\major \clef bass \time 2/4
>   aes32 bes aes ges
>   <<
> {\voiceTwo ees8 ~ ees4 |}
> \new Voice {
>   \voiceOne
>   \scaleDurations 4/14 {
> ees32[
> \teeny
> \override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
> \override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
> ges aes bes des' ges, bes, c  des f] ges[ bes c' des']
> \normalsize
> \revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
> \revert Stem  #'length-fraction
>   }
>   f'16-> des'
>   c32 des c bes,| } >> }
>
>We should probably put a Debussy example in the user manual (if he's in
>public domain in europe by now) 

He is so since 1988.

>and also make a shorthand for
>\graceStyleOn \graceStyleOff because often we want the style but do not
>want LilyPond's \grace timing.
>
>
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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Keith OHara]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 07:44:39 -0800, Knute Snortum  wrote:


Thank you both for your relies.  Keith, your second suggestion is what I
need, if I could designate a zero length note.

Requirements:

* An actual eighth note
* Grace notes need to "attached" with a beam to the eighth note
* Grace notes add no duration to the measure

I've attached a picture of the measure.  It has a lot of challenges in it
for me.



These small notes are not what LilyPond's \grace was designed for, but more 
like the small-note tuplet that Harm pointed out.  We want these note to be 
spaced across the beat, but more quickly than their visible duration.

LilyPond will do most of the beaming you want if you tell her how the music 
splits into two voices at the E-flat.  Ignoring the fact that there are two 
staves for the moment, try something like this:

\version "2.18.2"
{
  \key des\major \clef bass \time 2/4
  aes32 bes aes ges
  <<
{\voiceTwo ees8 ~ ees4 |}
\new Voice {
  \voiceOne
  \scaleDurations 4/14 {
ees32[
\teeny
\override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
\override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
ges aes bes des' ges, bes, c  des f] ges[ bes c' des']
\normalsize
\revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
\revert Stem  #'length-fraction
  }
  f'16-> des'
  c32 des c bes,| } >> }

We should probably put a Debussy example in the user manual (if he's in public 
domain in europe by now) and also make a shorthand for \graceStyleOn 
\graceStyleOff because often we want the style but do not want LilyPond's 
\grace timing.


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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Knute Snortum]

Thank you both for your relies.  Keith, your second suggestion is what I
need, if I could designate a zero length note.

Requirements:

* An actual eighth note
* Grace notes need to "attached" with a beam to the eighth note
* Grace notes add no duration to the measure

I've attached a picture of the measure.  It has a lot of challenges in it
for me.


Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Thomas Morley 
wrote:

> 2014-11-27 23:08 GMT+01:00 Keith OHara :
> > Knute Snortum  gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> I want to start a run of grace notes with a note with a normal head.
> >
> >> ...but with the c' beamed to the d'.
> >
> > If these notes all happen before the beat, then
> >  \relative c' {
> >\grace { <\tweak #'font-size #0 c>32 d e f g a b } c8 }
> >
> >
> > This looks like it might be a situation where the first note is on the
> beat.
> > In these cases, even though we call them 'grace-notes' LilyPonds \grace
> > is not what I want to use.  I just make the notes small and grace-style
> > and tell LilyPond their actual (as opposed to printed) duration so she
> > understands how I want them to fit in the music.
> >
> > \relative c' {
> >   c16[
> >   \teeny
> >   \override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
> >   \override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
> >   d32*1/3 e f g a b]
> >   \normalsize
> >   \revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
> >   \revert Stem  #'length-fraction
> >   c8
> >   r4 r2 }
>
>
> Maybe
> http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=193
> is of some help as well.
>
> Cheers,
>   Harm
>
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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Thomas Morley]

2014-11-27 23:08 GMT+01:00 Keith OHara :
> Knute Snortum  gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I want to start a run of grace notes with a note with a normal head.
>
>> ...but with the c' beamed to the d'.
>
> If these notes all happen before the beat, then
>  \relative c' {
>\grace { <\tweak #'font-size #0 c>32 d e f g a b } c8 }
>
>
> This looks like it might be a situation where the first note is on the beat.
> In these cases, even though we call them 'grace-notes' LilyPonds \grace
> is not what I want to use.  I just make the notes small and grace-style
> and tell LilyPond their actual (as opposed to printed) duration so she
> understands how I want them to fit in the music.
>
> \relative c' {
>   c16[
>   \teeny
>   \override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
>   \override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
>   d32*1/3 e f g a b]
>   \normalsize
>   \revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
>   \revert Stem  #'length-fraction
>   c8
>   r4 r2 }


Maybe
http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=193
is of some help as well.

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Beaming and grace notes

[Keith OHara]

Knute Snortum  gmail.com> writes:

> I want to start a run of grace notes with a note with a normal head.  

> ...but with the c' beamed to the d'.

If these notes all happen before the beat, then
 \relative c' {
   \grace { <\tweak #'font-size #0 c>32 d e f g a b } c8 }


This looks like it might be a situation where the first note is on the beat.
In these cases, even though we call them 'grace-notes' LilyPonds \grace 
is not what I want to use.  I just make the notes small and grace-style
and tell LilyPond their actual (as opposed to printed) duration so she
understands how I want them to fit in the music.

\relative c' {
  c16[
  \teeny
  \override Stem  #'no-stem-extend = ##t
  \override Stem  #'length-fraction = #0.7
  d32*1/3 e f g a b]
  \normalsize 
  \revert Stem  #'no-stem-extend
  \revert Stem  #'length-fraction
  c8
  r4 r2 }




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Beaming and grace notes

[Knute Snortum]

I want to start a run of grace notes with a note with a normal head.  So
like this:

\version "2.19.15"

\relative c' {
  c32 \grace { d32 e f g a b } c8
}

...but with the c' beamed to the d'.

Knute Snortum
(via Gmail)
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