Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

Hi, David!

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 3:51 PM David Bellows  wrote:

> > Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond
>
> Excellent work and thank you!
>

My pleasure ;-)


> Lilypond does look good here. I am curious, what are forked stems? You
> have that as a "no" for Lilypond.
>

Forked stems (or splayed stems, as Harm referred to them) can be necessary
when there are two notes that share the same staff line or space, but are
not the same pitch (e.g., ) A split stem separates the two noteheads
with their respective accidentals so they each can be distinguished
clearly. They aren't super common and can often be avoided by using a
different enharmonic spelling, but sometimes they can't be avoided and
require this. LilyPond doesn't handle this situation natively (yet) and it
requires a nice workaround, such as the one Harm presented.


> Also, I see you used the latest unstable version of Lilypond, did that
> make much of a difference?
>

Not really. The line items are pretty standard things, most of which have
been supported for a long time now. I don't suspect 2.18.2 to score much
differently than 2.19.82, except for only a few items like supporting
alternate music fonts, which was introduced in 2.19.12.

Best,
Abraham
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 6:18 PM Thomas Morley 
wrote:

> Am Di., 27. Nov. 2018 um 00:16 Uhr schrieb Malte Meyn <
> lilyp...@maltemeyn.de>:
>
> > „Notes, forked stems“ (l. 109)
> > → should be „yes (fake: rotated stems or custom lines)“
> >
>
> Or like attached pdf.
> Most recent code here (if someone's interested)
> https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,1176.msg6932.html#msg6932


Thanks everyone for the feedback. I will update the spreadsheet accordingly.

Best,
Abraham
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Thomas Morley]

Am Di., 27. Nov. 2018 um 00:16 Uhr schrieb Malte Meyn :

> „Notes, forked stems“ (l. 109)
> → should be „yes (fake: rotated stems or custom lines)“
>

Or like attached pdf.
Most recent code here (if someone's interested)
https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,1176.msg6932.html#msg6932

Cheers,
  Harm


splayed-stems-07.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Malte Meyn]

Am 26.11.18 um 23:36 schrieb Abraham Lee:
Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about 
LilyPond. I felt pretty confident in the Notation and Engraving tabs, 
pretty solid marks there, but more uncertain about the Playback tab 
entries. I'm honestly not sure what they should be since many of the 
playback functionality is requisite on forming the content for playback 
rather than score output (i.e., using articulate.ly 
, restructuring repeats, etc.). Please feel free 
to look over my responses and let me know if you feel I've answered in 
error.
I think in that Google doc several things aren’t correct or unclear. But 
maybe some of these I just don’t know ;)


Notation comparison
===

„Metronome marks, lines“ (line 40 of the table) Is this something like 
tempo spanners?

→ probably should be „no“ or „yes (fake)“

„Repeats, quadruple bar“ (l. 53) I think this means something like
\repeat percent 2 { b1 b b b }
→ should be „no“

„Ties, cross-staff“ (l. 69)
→ shouldn’t that be „no (fake: use slurs)“?

„Ties, laissez vibrer over barlines“ (l. 71) This implies that laissez 
vibrer ties can have a duration and a length depending on that. They 
don’t, their length doesn’t depend on rhythm and horizontal spacing.

→ should be „yes (needs manual length control)“ or similar

„Chord symbols, analysis“ (l. 104) Does this mean functional analysis? 
There are snippets that use lyrics and make heavy use of markup 
commands. But that’s not builtin and needs complicated input.

→ should be „yes (needs extra ‚plugin‘)“ or similar

„Notes, forked stems“ (l. 109)
→ should be „yes (fake: rotated stems or custom lines)“


Engraving comparison

„Measures, override width“ (l. 10) It’s not that easy. You can use 
\newSpacingSection and several spacing commands but you cannot say „make 
this measure 5cm wide“.

→ should be „yes, but …“

Playback comparison
===
„Output, instrument changes“ (l. 5)
\override Staff.midiInstrument = "…"
→ should be „yes“

„Tempo, polytempo“ (l. 10) What’s that?

„Dynamics, gradual changes“ (l. 15) Shouldn’t that be „yes (fake: many 
immediate changes)“?


„Repeats, capo/segno/coda/fine“ (l. 45) These are input as markups, 
aren’t they? So I think this should be „yes (fake: copy music using 
variables)“ or similar.


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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Bellows]

> Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond

Excellent work and thank you!

Lilypond does look good here. I am curious, what are forked stems? You
have that as a "no" for Lilypond.

Also, I see you used the latest unstable version of Lilypond, did that
make much of a difference?

Dave
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 2:37 PM Abraham Lee  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:04 PM David Bellows  wrote:
>>
>> Urs,
>>
>> >I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily 
>> >much to the comments section).
>>
>> If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
>> know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
>> suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
>> of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
>> in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
>> from anywhere else we'd like).
>>
>> > not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list
>>
>> I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
>> these (and others) would apply.
>>
>> > find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
>> > after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with 
>> > syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe 
>> > this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)
>>
>> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
>> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
>
>
> Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond. I 
> felt pretty confident in the Notation and Engraving tabs, pretty solid marks 
> there, but more uncertain about the Playback tab entries. I'm honestly not 
> sure what they should be since many of the playback functionality is 
> requisite on forming the content for playback rather than score output (i.e., 
> using articulate.ly, restructuring repeats, etc.). Please feel free to look 
> over my responses and let me know if you feel I've answered in error.
>
> Best,
> Abraham

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:04 PM David Bellows  wrote:

> Urs,
>
> >I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily
> much to the comments section).
>
> If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
> know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
> suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
> of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
> in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
> from anywhere else we'd like).
>
> > not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the
> list
>
> I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
> these (and others) would apply.
>
> > find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins
> after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with
> syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe
> this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)
>
> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
>

Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond. I
felt pretty confident in the Notation and Engraving tabs, pretty solid
marks there, but more uncertain about the Playback tab entries. I'm
honestly not sure what they should be since many of the playback
functionality is requisite on forming the content for playback rather than
score output (i.e., using articulate.ly, restructuring repeats, etc.).
Please feel free to look over my responses and let me know if you feel I've
answered in error.

Best,
Abraham
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2018-11-20 um 21:03 schrieb David Bellows :

>> find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
>> after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with syntactical 
>> means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe this would even 
>> warrant a new tab in the sheet)
> 
> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?

Maybe call it extensibility - other programs might accept plugins or might be 
scriptable in JavaScript or the like.

You could also mention interoperability - MusicXML, (La)TeX... Others might 
have e.g. Word addons and fare better WRT MusicXML...

Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
https://www.fiee.net





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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Shane Brandes]

So it does everything on that list near as I can work out.
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 5:57 PM Torsten Hämmerle
 wrote:
>
> Shane Brandes wrote
> > What do they mean by jazz articulations?
>
> Hi Shane,
>
> I guess they mean doits, falls, shakes, bends…
>
> All the best,
> Torsten
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html
>
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Shane Brandes wrote
> What do they mean by jazz articulations?

Hi Shane,

I guess they mean doits, falls, shakes, bends…

All the best,
Torsten




--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[J Martin Rushton]

See also on Wikipedia for a comparison:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_scorewriters

On 20/11/18 22:03, Shane Brandes wrote:
> Is there anything on that list that Lilypond doesn't do? What do they
> mean by jazz articulations?
> 
> -Shane
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 3:04 PM David Bellows  wrote:
>>
>> Urs,
>>
>>> I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily 
>>> much to the comments section).
>>
>> If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
>> know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
>> suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
>> of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
>> in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
>> from anywhere else we'd like).
>>
>>> not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list
>>
>> I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
>> these (and others) would apply.
>>
>>> find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
>>> after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with 
>>> syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe 
>>> this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)
>>
>> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
>> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:50 AM David Kastrup  wrote:
>>>
>>> Karlin High  writes:
>>>
 On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:
> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.

 I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
 software.

 
 

 Other list members here may have more recent references or info.
>>>
>>> I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
>>> programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
>>> challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
>>> an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
>>> degree than other programs.
>>>
>>> So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
>>> not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Kastrup
>>
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-- 
J Martin Rushton MBCS



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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Shane Brandes]

Is there anything on that list that Lilypond doesn't do? What do they
mean by jazz articulations?

-Shane
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 3:04 PM David Bellows  wrote:
>
> Urs,
>
> >I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily much 
> >to the comments section).
>
> If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
> know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
> suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
> of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
> in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
> from anywhere else we'd like).
>
> > not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list
>
> I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
> these (and others) would apply.
>
> > find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
> > after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with 
> > syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe 
> > this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)
>
> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:50 AM David Kastrup  wrote:
> >
> > Karlin High  writes:
> >
> > > On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:
> > >> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
> > >> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.
> > >
> > > I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
> > > software.
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > > Other list members here may have more recent references or info.
> >
> > I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
> > programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
> > challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
> > an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
> > degree than other programs.
> >
> > So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
> > not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.
> >
> > --
> > David Kastrup
>
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Bellows]

Urs,

>I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily much 
>to the comments section).

If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
from anywhere else we'd like).

> not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list

I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
these (and others) would apply.

> find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
> after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with syntactical 
> means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe this would even 
> warrant a new tab in the sheet)

One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:50 AM David Kastrup  wrote:
>
> Karlin High  writes:
>
> > On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:
> >> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
> >> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.
> >
> > I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
> > software.
> >
> > 
> > 
> >
> > Other list members here may have more recent references or info.
>
> I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
> programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
> challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
> an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
> degree than other programs.
>
> So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
> not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.
>
> --
> David Kastrup

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Kastrup]

Karlin High  writes:

> On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:
>> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
>> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.
>
> I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
> software.
>
> 
> 
>
> Other list members here may have more recent references or info.

I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
degree than other programs.

So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.11.18 um 19:38 schrieb David Bellows:

Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
and better and off the tops of their heads.

So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.

The post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/

The chart (Google document):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0



I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily 
much to the comments section).


But if we do that I think we should

* not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list
  (just two random entries: "Lyrics, unlimited number of stanzas", 
"Ornaments, custom").

  Especially on the "Engraving" tab there are *lots* of possibilities

* find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
after-the-fact),
  with things like complete extensibility with syntactical means, 
conditional layout per engraving target ...

  (Maybe this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)

My 2cts

Urs



Thanks,
Dave Bellows

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.11.18 um 19:54 schrieb Karlin High:

On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:

Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.


I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other 
software.







I think both of these links (although interesting in itself) don't help 
very much for this specific purpose.


Urs




Other list members here may have more recent references or info.


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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:56 AM David Bellows 
wrote:

> I'm not the owner which is why I suggested emailing the results to me
> or to post it on Reddit. But I am glad you're willing to contribute
>

I don't think posting it as text on Reddit is the best format (not that I
have an account to do so, but that's beside the point). Tabular form makes
a lot more sense to me, like is typically seen on Wikipedia. So, I will
wait for the owner to give permission.


> and look forward to the results!
>

Yeah! From my quick look-over, LP should do very well on both the Notation
and Engraving tabs, but not so good (unsurprisingly) on the Playback tab.
Then again, I don't use the 'articulate' function much, since I don't need
playback for more than ear-proofing the notes. Maybe it can provide more
"Yes"-es than I think! If anyone has deeper experience here, please let me
know and I will adjust LP's entries accordingly.

Best,
Abraham
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Bellows]

Hey Abraham,

> What a lovely idea! I'd be happy to add data for LilyPond. I've requested 
> write access to the Google Doc (not sure if you're the owner or not).

I'm not the owner which is why I suggested emailing the results to me
or to post it on Reddit. But I am glad you're willing to contribute
and look forward to the results!

Dave
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 10:52 AM Abraham Lee  wrote:
>
> Hi, David!
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:39 AM David Bellows  wrote:
>>
>> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
>> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
>> out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
>> them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
>> and better and off the tops of their heads.
>>
>> So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
>> email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
>> results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
>> is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.
>>
>> The post:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/
>>
>> The chart (Google document):
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0
>
>
> What a lovely idea! I'd be happy to add data for LilyPond. I've requested 
> write access to the Google Doc (not sure if you're the owner or not).
>
> Best,
> Abraham

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Karlin High]

On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:

Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.


I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other 
software.





Other list members here may have more recent references or info.
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

Hi, David!

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:39 AM David Bellows 
wrote:

> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
> out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
> them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
> and better and off the tops of their heads.
>
> So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
> email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
> results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
> is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.
>
> The post:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/
>
> The chart (Google document):
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0


What a lovely idea! I'd be happy to add data for LilyPond. I've requested
write access to the Google Doc (not sure if you're the owner or not).

Best,
Abraham
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Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Bellows]

Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
and better and off the tops of their heads.

So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.

The post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/

The chart (Google document):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0

Thanks,
Dave Bellows

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