Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Malte,

There's an old saying on the internet: don't feed the troll.

Arguing against this type of person just makes them stronger and more self
righteous. Experience shows that ignoring them makes them go away as they
get no gratification.

It's a pity this gentleman wants to use the list for religious propaganda,
because if not, I am sure all our learned colleagues would be willing to
help out as usual.


To the user in question, the remit for this list is as follows:

This list is for discussing how to use lilypond. (
www.gnu.org/software/lilypond)

from https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Plain and simple.


Andrew


On 8 April 2018 at 21:39, Malte Meyn  wrote:

>
>
> Am 07.04.2018 um 22:44 schrieb Filip May'r:
>
>> Hello, I'm sending my response in an attachment.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Filip
>>
>
> Why don’t you write a regular e-mail but send a Word document that is
> classified as junk by my mail program?
>
> The God’s words are a tool to defend one’s arguments. Opinions are
>> changing and fleeting in time, and so are the quotes of men. But the Word
>> of God stands fast for all generations, places, and times. It is written in
>> the Psalms: […]
>>
>
> It’s weird how one can rely on the Word of God to discuss about everything
> including nick names on the internet …
>
> Furthermore, music and talents are a gift of God […]
>>
> Nope. And also I don’t have to be religious just because I like Bach’s
> music and Bach was religious.
>
> Please don’t get me wrong: I’m neither religious nor atheist. I just don’t
> care much about religion. And I don’t have anything against religious
> people. But could you please keep such off-topic things off this list?
>
>
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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Malte Meyn]

Am 07.04.2018 um 22:44 schrieb Filip May'r:

Hello, I'm sending my response in an attachment.


Best,


Filip


Why don’t you write a regular e-mail but send a Word document that is 
classified as junk by my mail program?



The God’s words are a tool to defend one’s arguments. Opinions are changing and 
fleeting in time, and so are the quotes of men. But the Word of God stands fast 
for all generations, places, and times. It is written in the Psalms: […]


It’s weird how one can rely on the Word of God to discuss about 
everything including nick names on the internet …



Furthermore, music and talents are a gift of God […]
Nope. And also I don’t have to be religious just because I like Bach’s 
music and Bach was religious.


Please don’t get me wrong: I’m neither religious nor atheist. I just 
don’t care much about religion. And I don’t have anything against 
religious people. But could you please keep such off-topic things off 
this list?


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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[David Kastrup]

Filip May'r  writes:

> Notwithstanding I think it would be better to find a different
> signature because it may send a wrong idea about the intent. Moreover,
> we are made in the image of God who is upright and just and never does
> harm,

"made in the image of God" is a notion from the Torah, as is the Great
Flood, the extermination of the Amelekites, the killing of people not
pronouncing "shiboleth" correctly and various other not quite harmless
happenings.

> and we should seek to reflect that image in us.

There is also the commandment to not take the name of the Lord in vain;
and technical discussions in a mailing list for a typesetting program
would seem like not warranting the kind of public displays of piety that
Jesus admonishes against in Matthews 6:

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are:
for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners
of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you,
They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into
thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father
which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall
reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for
they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be
not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things
ye have need of, before ye ask him.

What would count more as a "vain repetition" than an automatically
appended signature?

I don't think that either LilyPond or Christianity (which for better or
worse is just one of many beliefs) have a lot to gain from dragging
religion into the discussions here since we reduce our common ground in
that manner without actually furthering either cause.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Malte Meyn]

Am 06.04.2018 um 17:57 schrieb Filip May'r:
Notwithstanding I think it would be better to find a different signature 
because it may send a wrong idea about the intent. Moreover, we are made 
in the image of God who is upright and just and never does harm, and we 
should seek to reflect that image in us.


Really? He should change his name (even if it’s “only” a pseudonym) 
because it has a meaning in a different language that affect your 
religious feelings?


What about German Hacker, the mayor of the German city Herzogenaurach? 
Should he change his name because this sounds weird to some people in 
English?


Apart from that, this is a place to discuss about LilyPond, not to 
evangelize. I have to admit that I find it strange when some people sign 
their e-mails to this list with quotes from the Bible but that doesn’t 
bother me as long as the mail itself is on-topic.


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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Karlin High]

On 4/6/2018 10:57 AM, Filip May'r wrote:
Notwithstanding I think it would be better to find a different signature 
because it may send a wrong idea about the intent.


He's been signing that way for so long that I think it's become a 
Proverbs 22:28 ancient landmark.

--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Filip May'r]

Hello,


I understand that you may not like how the stem looks, but my goal was to 
preserve the organization of the notes in the manuscript which follows a 
harmonious and logical pattern.


About Facebook and other social media, I could not agree more. I myself am not 
in those websites. Social media are a tower of Babel of this generation which 
will crumble in time.


I completely understand and agree with your thoughts about privacy and personal 
boundaries- that is an absolutely legitimate concern, in fact the Bible says, 
"Cursed is he who moves their neighbor's boundary stone."


Notwithstanding I think it would be better to find a different signature 
because it may send a wrong idea about the intent. Moreover, we are made in the 
image of God who is upright and just and never does harm, and we should seek to 
reflect that image in us.


Filip


The Lord within her is righteous; he does no wrong. Morning by morning he 
brings his justice to light, and he fails not. (Zeph 3)
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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Bric]

On April 5, 2018 at 7:46 PM Andrew Bernard  wrote:    I guess it's a bit like LilyJazz. Jazz people seem to want engraved scores to look like handwritten sheets done with a biro. But this always looks terribly 'faux' to me. Ha!  I've always felt like jazz fonts (in general) where a strange and trivial pursuit/fetish/habit/convention/etc.And maybe my misgivings about the value of jazz fonts are boosted by my swimming (or wanting to swim) between genres... A distinct font for one particular genre insinuates that it is, indeed, a separate genre or universe -- to be kept apart from others.My 3 cents. Andrew   On 6 April 2018 at 04:52, Simon Albrecht  wrote:  If you mimick the stem lengths and directions of the manuscript in LilyPond, your engraving will still differ from Bach’s manuscript in many ways. It’s a totally different style of engraving, which follows different rules.  ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user 
 

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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Simon Albrecht]

On 06.04.2018 01:46, Andrew Bernard wrote:

Hi Simon and Filip,

The Bach MS in question is a handwritten autograph - not an engraving.


I’m certainly aware of that – it was just for brevity that I didn’t make 
it explicit.


Best, Simon

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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Simon and Filip,

The Bach MS in question is a handwritten autograph - not an engraving. As I
mentioned, engraving and handwriting are two quite different media. I think
it's a category error to conflate the two.

This topic interests me because I work with a New Complexity School
composer who is extremely attached to his self created music handwriting
style, very idiosyncratic and individual, non standard, and different, that
he developed over decades. When I first started working with him he
demanded in no uncertain terms that I make lilypond emulate his handwriting
down to the last detail. He had always refused to have his work engraved
because nobody could do it in any other program. After two years of
struggle, I finally convinced him that engraving is engraving and writing
is writing, and what you lose in 'personality' you gain in clarity. Along
the way, I did develop a big library of code to get closer to the
appearance he wants, including our own custom font and so on. So we now
have a compromise that I thin is clear and he thinks looks like his work.

The works published by JS Bach in his lifetime do not resemble his own
handwriting. he had to write quickly and fast to meet deadlines. I am sure
he understood copper engraving is a different medium altogether.

So I agree with you Simon, but its not one engraving style versus another,
it's engraving versus handwriting.

I guess it's a bit like LilyJazz. Jazz people seem to want engraved scores
to look like handwritten sheets done with a biro. But this always looks
terribly 'faux' to me.

Andrew


On 6 April 2018 at 04:52, Simon Albrecht  wrote:

>
> If you mimick the stem lengths and directions of the manuscript in
> LilyPond, your engraving will still differ from Bach’s manuscript in many
> ways. It’s a totally different style of engraving, which follows different
> rules.
>
>
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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Simon Albrecht]

On 05.04.2018 17:10, Filip May'r wrote:



I understand it may seem unusual to copy the stem direction according 
to the manuscript, but I'm not sure why you think it is ugly. It's for 
my personal use, and it worked beautifully for me.




Details matter a lot in typography.
If you mimick the stem lengths and directions of the manuscript in 
LilyPond, your engraving will still differ from Bach’s manuscript in 
many ways. It’s a totally different style of engraving, which follows 
different rules.


Best, Simon

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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Thomas Morley]

2018-04-05 17:10 GMT+02:00 Filip May'r :
> Dear Thomas,
>
>
> Thank you so much! The result is exactly what I had been trying to achieve.
> I had been looking for a solution for a while, and it was a relief to apply
> your fix.

Glad I could help.

> I understand it may seem unusual to copy the stem direction according to the
> manuscript, but I'm not sure why you think it is ugly. It's for my personal
> use, and it worked beautifully for me.

I call it ugly, because the stems are way too short.

> I'm just wondering why you signed your email the way you did. Your solution
> was constructive and helpful, and I don't see any harm in it.

Well, I want not to be indentified.
"Harm" is a malapropism of my real name, nothing to do with the
meaning of 'harm'
"Thomas Morley" is an alias as well.

I hate companies like google, for tracking me and collecting my data.
Facebook, WhatsApp, etc are another thing. Sometimes "hate" is not
strong enough. Everyone with an account there deserves what he/she
gets.
Though, having no account doesn't prevent me from them, that's the real badness.

If I can puzzle those companies a little bit, it's worth the effort
writing such mails every now and then.


Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Karlin High]

On 4/5/2018 10:10 AM, Filip May'r wrote:
I understand it may seem unusual to copy the stem direction according to 
the manuscript, but I'm not sure why you think it is ugly.


Probably different expectations between Bach handwriting and present-day 
software claiming high-quality engraving by default.




"LilyPond is inspired by traditional manual engravings published by 
European music publishers in and towards the end of the first half of 
the twentieth century, including Bärenreiter, Duhem, Durand, Hofmeister, 
Peters, and Schott. This is sometimes regarded as the peak of 
traditional musical engraving practice. As we have studied these 
editions we have learned a great deal about what goes into a 
well-engraved score, and the aspects that we wanted to imitate in LilyPond."

--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Filip May'r]

Dear Thomas,


Thank you so much! The result is exactly what I had been trying to achieve. I 
had been looking for a solution for a while, and it was a relief to apply your 
fix.


I understand it may seem unusual to copy the stem direction according to the 
manuscript, but I'm not sure why you think it is ugly. It's for my personal 
use, and it worked beautifully for me.


I'm just wondering why you signed your email the way you did. Your solution was 
constructive and helpful, and I don't see any harm in it.


Thanks again,


Filip



Whatsoever you do, work heartily, as unto the Lord, and not unto men; knowing 
that from the Lord you shall receive the recompense of the inheritance: you 
serve the Lord Christ. For he that does wrong shall receive again for the wrong 
that he has done: and there is no respect of persons.


Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, 
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable -- if anything is 
excellent or praiseworthy -- think about such things and the God of peace will 
be with you. (Col 3, Phl 4)




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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Thomas Morley]

2018-04-04 23:56 GMT+02:00 Filip May'r :
>
> Hello all,
>
>
> I am a new user of LilyPond and so far have found it to be a great tool. It 
> is relatively easy to learn (at least the basics), free and extensive.
>
>
> May I suggest an added feature: An option to stack additional note beams for 
> shorter note values on the opposite side of the first beam, that is, stacking 
> up (or down) away from, instead of toward, the note head.
>
>
> I ran into this problem when transcribing Bach's double violin concerto using 
> LilyPond.
>
>
> This is the bar (31) in the manuscript:
>
>
>
>
> Specifically the issue is with the 2nd and 3rd (c & d) notes into the bar:
>
>
>
>
> Attempting the usual stem direction changes and manual beaming results in 
> this:
>
>
>
> The 16th note beam collides with the c and d note heads!
>
>
> I have not found how to correct this. However, a feature that would simply 
> allow that the diminutive note value beams stack down away from the note head 
> would fix this very neatly. To further demonstrate: I will change the 16th 
> notes in the bar to 32nd notes:
>
>
>
> For every halving of the note value an additional beam is stacked up going up 
> toward the note head. In such circumstance as the above examples demonstrate 
> it would be ideal that those beams would stack going down away from the note 
> head, toward the bottom of the staff, exactly what is done in the handwritten 
> copy.
>
>
> If anyone knows or finds a work-around to this, please share.
>
>
> Regards
>
> - F.M.


You could do:

{
  \stemUp
  g'8[
  \stemDown
  \once \override Stem.beaming = #'((0) . (-1 0))
  c''16
  \once \override Stem.beaming = #'((-1 0) . (0))
  d''
  e''8
  \stemUp
  c']
}

Though, lily warns (with or without the overrides):
warning: no viable initial configuration found: may not find good beam slope

And is absolutely correct, the output _is_ ugly.
So I agree with Andrew.


Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Filip,

As an 18c specialist myself and harpsichord player, I would not be
attempting to mimic Bach's musical handwriting. There's really no need. And
for people not familiar with that idiosyncrasy you will confuse them, as it
is non standard. My aim in engraving is clarity for the player, and this
idea takes it away. Besides, if you really want to do Bach manuscripts then
pretty soon you need curvilinear tapered beams (which we don't have).
Engraving is a different medium to handwriting. I don't think you have to
mirror it.

Nevertheless, give it a couple of days and I am sure the learned colleagues
on the list will cook something up for you! :-)

In any case, welcome to the Pond!

Andrew
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Corrected: Beaming in LilyPond

[Filip May'r]

Hello all,


I am a new user of LilyPond and so far have found it to be a great tool. It is 
relatively easy to learn (at least the basics), free and extensive.


May I suggest an added feature: An option to stack additional note beams for 
shorter note values on the opposite side of the first beam, that is, stacking 
up (or down) away from, instead of toward, the note head.


I ran into this problem when transcribing Bach's double violin concerto using 
LilyPond.


This is the bar (31) in the manuscript:


[cid:9b5e704f-57ea-4303-a1b6-85c7b6f3b376]


Specifically the issue is with the 2nd and 3rd (c & d) notes into the bar:


[cid:78da67db-956e-426a-9c10-ac2ec1e02d07]


Attempting the usual stem direction changes and manual beaming results in this:


[cid:3140f8dd-91e4-4abc-90bf-f3b40c80d3ea]

The 16th note beam collides with the c and d note heads!


I have not found how to correct this. However, a feature that would simply 
allow that the diminutive note value beams stack down away from the note head 
would fix this very neatly. To further demonstrate: I will change the 16th 
notes in the bar to 32nd notes:


[cid:32410ce8-bd8e-4a2a-876c-e4e6ea467660]

For every halving of the note value an additional beam is stacked up going up 
toward the note head. In such circumstance as the above examples demonstrate it 
would be ideal that those beams would stack going down away from the note head, 
toward the bottom of the staff, exactly what is done in the handwritten copy.


If anyone knows or finds a work-around to this, please share.


Regards

- F.M.




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