Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Peter Olin]

Hi all!

After a 20+ years hiatus from LaTeX use, I've again found reasons to wet my
toes again.

I'm trying to typeset some verse with LilyPond - where the verse text
includes hyphens (endashes, or possibly emdashes), but it's not as
straightforward as I had hoped using LilyPond. Maybe someone can help.

The original verse text looks like this i LaTeX:
"Må det väckta sinnet -- värdefullt, sublimt --"

and I want those endashes to appear in the lyrics below as well. But they
don't.

Can someone help me out with this?

\begin{lilypond}
% set the starting point to middle C
\relative c' { c c c c c c d d d d c r }
% The -- endash:es disappear. I would like to see them between the words
"sinnet" and "värdefullt", as well as after "sublimt".

\addlyrics {Må det väck- ta sin- net -- vär- de- fullt sub- limt --  }
\end{lilypond}



Kind regards,

-- 
Peter Olin
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Jan-Peter Voigt]

Hello Peter,

to include the mdash sign in lilypond, it should appear as such in the (UTF8) 
encoded source. The double dash in lilypond evokes a hyphenation event to draw 
thin and short Lines between two syllables. If the emdash is not a syllable on 
its own, you might want to override hyphen properties.

HTH
Cheers,
Jan-Peter



Am 16.10.2011 um 12:13 schrieb Peter Olin :

> Hi all!
> 
> After a 20+ years hiatus from LaTeX use, I've again found reasons to wet my 
> toes again.
> 
> I'm trying to typeset some verse with LilyPond - where the verse text 
> includes hyphens (endashes, or possibly emdashes), but it's not as 
> straightforward as I had hoped using LilyPond. Maybe someone can help.
> 
> The original verse text looks like this i LaTeX: 
> "Må det väckta sinnet -- värdefullt, sublimt --"
> 
> and I want those endashes to appear in the lyrics below as well. But they 
> don't. 
> 
> Can someone help me out with this?
> 
> \begin{lilypond}
> % set the starting point to middle C
> \relative c' { c c c c c c d d d d c r }
> % The -- endash:es disappear. I would like to see them between the words 
> "sinnet" and "värdefullt", as well as after "sublimt".
> 
> \addlyrics {Må det väck- ta sin- net -- vär- de- fullt sub- limt --  }  
> \end{lilypond}
> 
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> -- 
> Peter Olin
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Peter Olin]

Hi Jan-Peter!

Thanks for the tip.

Using an UTF dash indeed makes it show up in the lyrics - and so far that's
good.

But then the trouble is that I don't want it to "consume" a note. It seems
to be counted as a syllable.

I've been looking at the LyricHyphen and tried to experiment with overriding
various values - but as it appears, the en-dash is not at all affected by
this (but all the inter-word-hypens are).


I found something that looks a bit promising,

skipFour = \repeat unfold 4 { \skip 8 }


But I'm a) not entirely clear about the numbers, and b) it only skips over
the notes - the en-dash is still being counted as a syllable.

I need some more help or pointers here,  I'm getting in over my head in the
nitty gritty.

/Peter


On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 12:39, Jan-Peter Voigt  wrote:

> Hello Peter,
>
> to include the mdash sign in lilypond, it should appear as such in the
> (UTF8) encoded source. The double dash in lilypond evokes a hyphenation
> event to draw thin and short Lines between two syllables. If the emdash is
> not a syllable on its own, you might want to override hyphen properties.
>
> HTH
> Cheers,
> Jan-Peter
>
>
>
> Am 16.10.2011 um 12:13 schrieb Peter Olin :
>
> Hi all!
>
> After a 20+ years hiatus from LaTeX use, I've again found reasons to wet my
> toes again.
>
> I'm trying to typeset some verse with LilyPond - where the verse text
> includes hyphens (endashes, or possibly emdashes), but it's not as
> straightforward as I had hoped using LilyPond. Maybe someone can help.
>
> The original verse text looks like this i LaTeX:
> "Må det väckta sinnet -- värdefullt, sublimt --"
>
> and I want those endashes to appear in the lyrics below as well. But they
> don't.
>
> Can someone help me out with this?
>
> \begin{lilypond}
> % set the starting point to middle C
> \relative c' { c c c c c c d d d d c r }
> % The -- endash:es disappear. I would like to see them between the words
> "sinnet" and "värdefullt", as well as after "sublimt".
>
> \addlyrics {Må det väck- ta sin- net -- vär- de- fullt sub- limt --  }
> \end{lilypond}
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> --
> Peter Olin
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>


-- 
Peter Olin
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Peter,

Does this give you what you want?
\addlyrics { Må det väck -- ta sin -- "net—" vär -- de -- fullt sub -- "limt—"  
}

Hope this helps,
Kieren.
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Peter Olin]

I also notice that with the enclosing of the actual syllable and the en-dash
within double quotes, the alignment of the syllable with the note is
distorted.


On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 21:12, Peter Olin  wrote:

> Thanks Kieren!
>
> That's close to what I want. Yes.
>
> However I'd like to see the en-dash *centered* between the two words it
> separates. With your workaround it's sort of attached to the left one" And I
> guess one could get it more towards the second by placing the quotes
> differently.
>
> Sorry for being picky, but that's why I'm trying to get the typesetting
> done with TeX. :-)
>
> /Peter
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 20:52, Kieren MacMillan <
> kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> Does this give you what you want?
>> \addlyrics { Må det väck -- ta sin -- "net—" vär -- de -- fullt sub --
>> "limt—"  }
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>> Kieren.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Peter Olin
>



-- 
Peter Olin
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Peter,

Are you simply trying to replace Lilypond's inter-syllable hyphen with an 
emdash? If so, just override it directly:

\version "2.15.14"
\paper { ragged-right = ##f }
MD = {
  \once \override LyricHyphen #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
  \once \override LyricHyphen #'text = "—"
  \once \override LyricHyphen #'X-offset = #4.5
}
theNotes = \relative c' { c4 c c c c c c c }
theWords = \lyricmode { Nor -- mal \MD re -- placed nor -- mal nor -- mal }
\score {
  <<
\new Staff \theNotes
\addlyrics \theWords
  >>
}

Anyway, this should give you some ideas and point you in the right direction.
(n.b., There's probably a more elegant way than the manual X-offset, but I 
don't have time to work it out right now.)

Hope this helps!
Kieren.
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Peter Olin]

Thanks for your patience.

No not at all. I'm not at all trying to replace the inter-syllable hyphen
with emdash.

My lyrics comes from this verse:

Må det väckta sinnet – värdefullt, sublimt –
> vakna hos dem där det ännu ej har väckts
> aldrig falna där det redan vaknat har
> utan ständigt växa i all evig tid.


The en-dashes are *between words* in the verse (see the first line)

As described in the wikipedia article on Dash:

Like em dashes, en dashes can be used instead of colons, or pairs of commas
> that mark off a nested clause or phrase. They can also be used around
> parenthetical expressions – such as this one – in place of the em dashes
> preferred by some publishers, particularly where short columns are used,
> since em dashes can look awkward at the end of a line. See En dash versus
> em dash , below.
> In these situations, en dashes must have a single space on each side.

So, I want to keep the en-dashes in the typeset lyrics, but I do not want
them to be matched to any notes, but rather have them occupy the space *between
the words*, and *under the space* between the notes.

/Peter


On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 22:42, Kieren MacMillan <
kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> Are you simply trying to replace Lilypond's inter-syllable hyphen with an
> emdash? If so, just override it directly:
>
> \version "2.15.14"
> \paper { ragged-right = ##f }
> MD = {
>  \once \override LyricHyphen #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
>  \once \override LyricHyphen #'text = "—"
>  \once \override LyricHyphen #'X-offset = #4.5
> }
> theNotes = \relative c' { c4 c c c c c c c }
> theWords = \lyricmode { Nor -- mal \MD re -- placed nor -- mal nor -- mal }
> \score {
>  <<
>\new Staff \theNotes
>\addlyrics \theWords
>  >>
> }
>
> Anyway, this should give you some ideas and point you in the right
> direction.
> (n.b., There's probably a more elegant way than the manual X-offset, but I
> don't have time to work it out right now.)
>
> Hope this helps!
> Kieren.




-- 
Peter Olin
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Peter,

> So, I want to keep the en-dashes in the typeset lyrics, but I do not want 
> them to be matched to any notes, but rather have them occupy the space 
> between the words, and under the space between the notes.

Then you should probably use hidden notes, and attach the en-dash as a "lyric" 
to the hidden note.

Hope this helps!
Kieren.
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[David Rogers]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

Hi Peter, 

So, I want to keep the en-dashes in the typeset lyrics, but I 
do not 
want them to be matched to any notes, but rather have them 
occupy the space between the words, and under the space between 
the notes. 

Then you should probably use hidden notes, and attach the 
en-dash as a "lyric" to the hidden note. 



I agree that this would be how to do what you've asked for. But 
I'm not so sure that what you've asked for will be easier or 
better for someone reading the music. I would use the 
previously-mentioned solution of having the syllable that comes 
before the dash typed like "la -" . You could even put two or 
three spaces between the syllable and the dash, if you don't want 
the dash to be so close. (And there is a good way to change the 
alignment of your syllable so that the letters, not the empty 
space, go under the note. See the notation manual, section 2.1.2, 
under "techniques specific to lyrics"). This syllable re-alignment 
is clumsy & troublesome, but much less clumsy & troublesome than 
adding an invisible note.


This will alert the singer, at the time they need to know, "this 
is only half of the word". In your proposal, if another voice (or 
the accompaniment) has a lot of notes, the dash could end up "in 
the middle of nowhere", even potentially on the next line.


--
David

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Christ van Willegen]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 03:26, David Rogers  wrote:
> This will alert the singer, at the time they need to know, "this is only
> half of the word". In your proposal, if another voice (or the accompaniment)
> has a lot of notes, the dash could end up "in the middle of nowhere", even
> potentially on the next line.

It does not indicate 'this is half a word' in his case, but 'this is a
parenthesis', so i would lessen the confusion (I think!).

Christ van Willegen
-- 
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Mats Bengtsson]

Christ van Willegen  gmail.com> writes:

> 
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 03:26, David Rogers  gmail.com>
wrote:
> > This will alert the singer, at the time they need to know, "this is only
> > half of the word". In your proposal, if another voice (or the accompaniment)
> > has a lot of notes, the dash could end up "in the middle of nowhere", even
> > potentially on the next line.
> 
> It does not indicate 'this is half a word' in his case, but 'this is a
> parenthesis', so i would lessen the confusion (I think!).
> 
> Christ van Willegen


For completeness, I hope you know about http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=680,
even though it does not answer this specific question.

 /Mats



___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[David Rogers]

Mats Bengtsson  writes:

Christ van Willegen  gmail.com> writes: 

 On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 03:26, David Rogers  gmail.com> 
wrote: 
> This will alert the singer, at the time they need to know, 
> "this is only half of the word". In your proposal, if another 
> voice (or the accompaniment) has a lot of notes, the dash 
> could end up "in the middle of nowhere", even potentially on 
> the next line. 
 It does not indicate 'this is half a word' in his case, but 
'this is a parenthesis', so i would lessen the confusion (I 
think!).


I did forget about the kind of dash, but my point is still the 
same.


I don't agree with giving the dash to an invisible note, because 
of the potential it creates for the dash to be in the middle of 
nowhere, where the singer might miss it or might read it as a 
printing error. If "evenly spaced between the syllables" turns out 
to mean "two staffs of the piano's sixteenth notes later" or 
"sixty millimetres away from the nearest word" then the meaning is 
lost.


Attach it to the syllable, adding two, three, even six spaces if 
you want. Or attach it to the following syllable and right-align 
that syllable, if that works better. But in the context of lyrics, 
punctuation IMO must attach to the words (even if with the 
addition of some spaces) or else it will be easily ignored or 
misinterpreted. "Lonely" punctuation has a high likelihood of 
being interpreted as part of a stray dynamic spanner line, a 
misplaced tenuto or staccato, or as random garbage.


--
David

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Peter,

> Note: With the hidden note(s) the bar-marks came out of synch with the 
> visible notes, so I had to resort to using \cadenceOn in combination with 
> \bar.

I'm 99% sure this isn't necessary.
Don't forget that you can adjust the effective length of a note (even a hidden 
one) by using a multiplier (e.g., c4*0 or c4*2/3.).

> is there any way of specifying the physical width of the hidden not that is 
> aligned with the first en-dash?

Override the #'X-extent and/or #'extra-spacing width.

Hope this helps!
Kieren.
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Disappearing hyphens (endashes) in lyrics

[David Kastrup]

Peter Olin  writes:

> Thanks all for help. It's starting to look quite nice.

Please don't ever append a mail you are referring to at the bottom when
in a mailing list.  Quote only the relevant parts of the mail (using a
citation mark like I do here) and reply to each point immediately
below.  Never cite anything that you are not referring to.

In this case, you appended a whole daily or weekly digest without any
reason.  As a rule, you should _never_, whether you are quoting or not,
reply to a digest since a mail reader, when replying, puts referral
marks in the headers that other mail readers use for organizing
discussion threads.  When you reply to a digest, those headers become
useless.

Anyway, your reply, containing a whole daily digest, will be a part of
the next daily digest.  Can you imagine what happens if such a
digest-quote occurs daily or more often?

-- 
David Kastrup


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user