Double time signature when there are grace notes
Dear all,
I need help with the following situation:
\version "2.19.54"
<<
{
c'1
\break
\time 15/16
\grace a'16 b'2...
}
{
R1
\break
\time 15/16
c'2...
}
>>
This results in the attached output. Is that a bug or is this supposed to be
encoded differently? There are dirty workarounds:
* I can fix it by removing the \time from the bottom staff.
* I can add a "grace space" to the bottom staff[1]
Both solutions have the following disadvantages I want to avoid:
* The staffs won't work standalone (missing time signature or broken spacing).
* I have to analyze all other staffs when writing out one staff.
I'm looking for a reliable solution that works well for auto-generating
Lilypond code.
Highly appreciating any help on this,
Thomas Weber
[1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2004-08/msg00258.html
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Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
Hello Thomas,
Not a bug, but a feature : you have to add graces in all voices :
\version "2.19.44"
<<
{
c'1
\break
\time 15/16
\grace a'16 b'2...
}
{
R1
\break
\time 15/16
\grace s16 c'2...
}
>>
JM
> Le 10 févr. 2017 à 23:23, Thomas Weber a écrit :
>
> Dear all,
>
>
> I need help with the following situation:
>
>
> \version "2.19.54"
>
> <<
> {
> c'1
> \break
> \time 15/16
> \grace a'16 b'2...
> }
>
> {
> R1
> \break
> \time 15/16
> c'2...
> }
> >>
>
>
> This results in the attached output. Is that a bug or is this supposed to be
> encoded differently? There are dirty workarounds:
>
> * I can fix it by removing the \time from the bottom staff.
> * I can add a "grace space" to the bottom staff[1]
>
> Both solutions have the following disadvantages I want to avoid:
>
> * The staffs won't work standalone (missing time signature or broken spacing).
> * I have to analyze all other staffs when writing out one staff.
>
> I'm looking for a reliable solution that works well for auto-generating
> Lilypond code.
>
>
> Highly appreciating any help on this,
> Thomas Weber
>
>
> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2004-08/msg00258.html
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
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Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
Am 10.02.2017 um 23:48 schrieb Jacques Menu Muzhic: > Not a bug, but a feature Well, I'd say a bug but a well known one: https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/34/ Joram ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
Am 10.02.2017 um 23:48 schrieb Jacques Menu Muzhic: Not a bug, but a feature : you have to add graces in all voices : I already realized that: Le 10 févr. 2017 à 23:23, Thomas Weber a écrit : * I can add a "grace space" to the bottom staff But I tried to avoid this for the following reasons: * The staffs won't work standalone ([...] broken spacing). * I have to analyze all other staffs when writing out one staff. How would you actually do this e.g. in an orchestral work where you want to create score and parts from the same data without distorting the spacing where invisible graces were added? Would you work with tags to remove the invisible graces? Best Thomas ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
On 11.02.2017 08:48, Thomas Weber wrote: Would you work with tags to remove the invisible graces? Sounds like a good idea. Of course this is not a nice situation, cumbersome to deal with. But it’s an extremely hard-to-fix bug also. Best, Simon ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
2017-02-11 8:48 GMT+01:00 Thomas Weber : > I already realized that: > >>> Le 10 févr. 2017 à 23:23, Thomas Weber a écrit : >>> >>> * I can add a "grace space" to the bottom staff > > > > But I tried to avoid this for the following reasons: > > >>> * The staffs won't work standalone ([...] broken spacing). >>> * I have to analyze all other staffs when writing out one staff. >>> > > > How would you actually do this e.g. in an orchestral work where you want to > create score and parts from the same data without distorting the spacing > where invisible graces were added? Would you work with tags to remove the > invisible graces? Arnold has put up some work to get a more automagic workflow. http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=990 http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=978 IIRC his work is not finished, so you probably will need to fall back to grace-spacers sometimes... HTH, Harm ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
another solution would be to put the spacer grace in a separate variable (e.g. \global), as opposed to adding invisible graces in every staff ... cheers Arne -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Double-time-signature-when-there-are-grace-notes-tp199984p19.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
Am 11.02.2017 um 13:51 schrieb Thomas Morley: Arnold has put up some work to get a more automagic workflow. http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=990 http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=978 IIRC his work is not finished, so you probably will need to fall back to grace-spacers sometimes... This actually solves my problem - thanks for pointing me there! I'm relieved there is an existing fix. This looks like it should be the standard behaviour of Lilypond. Can anybody tell how the chances are of integrating this into off-the-shelf Lilypond? Would be really convenient. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
2017-02-11 22:49 GMT+01:00 Thomas Weber : > Am 11.02.2017 um 13:51 schrieb Thomas Morley: >> >> >> Arnold has put up some work to get a more automagic workflow. >> >> http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=990 >> http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=978 >> >> IIRC his work is not finished, so you probably will need to fall back >> to grace-spacers sometimes... >> > > > This actually solves my problem - thanks for pointing me there! I'm > relieved there is an existing fix. > > This looks like it should be the standard behaviour of Lilypond. Can anybody > tell how the chances are of integrating this into off-the-shelf Lilypond? > Would be really convenient. The bug you encountered is one of our oldest and infamous ones: https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/34/ We already provide the grace-spacer-workaround in NR http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/special-rhythmic-concerns#grace-notes (scroll down to "Known issues and warnings") I already suggested to put the LSR-snippet into the docs or even point to it in the NR https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/34/?limit=25&page=1#2eca but with little success. Though, be aware it is _not_ a bugfix, but basically a rather nasty workaround. Hence I doubt this coding will ever be part of the source-code. Cheers, Harm ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
"This looks like it should be the standard behaviour of Lilypond. Can anybody tell how the chances are of integrating this into off-the-shelf Lilypond? Would be really convenient." Finding out about this bug and how to work around it is almost a rite of passage for Lilypond users. I know absolutely nothing about the inner workings, but I guess it must be incredibly difficult to solve or it would have been solved by now. -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Double-time-signature-when-there-are-grace-notes-tp199984p200079.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
On 13.02.2017 18:35, Michael Rivers wrote: I guess it must be incredibly difficult to solve or it would have been solved by now. Very recently, David Kastrup wrote about having made like half a dozen attempts that didn’t work out. And he’s definitely the most capable programmer and the one with the most understanding of LilyPond’s intestines that we have. Best, Simon ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
Simon Albrecht writes: > On 13.02.2017 18:35, Michael Rivers wrote: >> I guess it must be incredibly difficult to solve or it would >> have been solved by now. > > Very recently, David Kastrup wrote about having made like half a dozen > attempts that didn’t work out. And he’s definitely the most capable > programmer and the one with the most understanding of LilyPond’s > intestines that we have. Oh, that doesn't mean that it's hard. It's just not obvious. I am pretty confident that transferring the "grace fixup" approach from sequential music to simultaneous music would likely do the trick in some manner. There are just several problems: a) grace fixup is precalculated in sequential music which is a mistake for several reasons and does not transfer well to simultaneous music. b) the consequences of stuff going wrong with grace fixups in simultaneous music are more dire than in sequential music. c) several callbacks for music start/length behave somewhat quirky in connection with grace music and one would need to straighten this out to avoid case b) kicking in with a vengeance. That's why I said that I don't consider this a good student project: it's hit or miss. Miss does not cause any progress, hit will likely be not all that spectacular with regard to the actual coding work getting done. It's not likely "incredibly difficult". Just elusive. I am pretty sure that whatever solution might eventually be done will be of the "so why was this so hard?" variety. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Double time signature when there are grace notes
Thomas Weber wrote > Am 11.02.2017 um 13:51 schrieb Thomas Morley: >> >> Arnold has put up some work to get a more automagic workflow. >> > ... > This actually solves my problem - thanks for pointing me there! I'm > relieved there is an existing fix. > ... > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@ > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user Hello Thomas, please check the thread http://www.lilypondforum.de/index.php?topic=2458.0 "Grace Sync - Skips automatisch einfügen" (Grace Sync - add grace skips automatically) on the German Lilypond Forum, too. Well, you need to login there to download the example files for version 2.18.2 (in the 3rd post), or the include file egs.ly modified for 2.19.22 and above (in the 4th post). You will have to start all staves explicitely (add \new Staff to your example) to make it work. I started to study, how could \set, \override and \applyContext be automatically moved to the first score wide grace sync timing if the user marks these events to be 'moved', and which of these events to move and which ones to keep at their position and context. I implemented it by a function which parses the input and returns a modified ly:music structure - a method \articulate does, too. More details: - in all \new Staff a new Voice for grace syncing will be added. - the marked events below this Staff in the ly:music structure will be moved from a Sequential Music into this additional grace syncing voice, embeded between skips and grace skips. I did not do very much testing until now, but I'm looking forward to solve in my typical score layouts at least 90 % of the grace sync situations automatically, 7 % by manually setting the grace synchronisation attribute to #'keep or #'move,. So I hope for less than 3 % I will have to create tagged alternatives to solve the grace syncing in different score views. Well, \repeat volta can cause problems, especially if you rename the voltas, add voltas onto additional staves 'in the middle of the score', or even rename these voltas independet for each staff. Moreover, I hope this workaround can also be a tool to study some aspects of all grace synchronisation issues (yes, I believe grace syncing is not a single issue but a group off issues, therfore it does not lead you directly to an solution), so finally the "issue 34" can be solved in the core of lilypond one day in the future. Arnold -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Double-time-signature-when-there-are-grace-notes-tp199984p200223.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
