Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Colin Campbell]

On 2018-05-04 07:51 AM, Karlin High wrote:

On 5/4/2018 8:41 AM, Jacques Menu Muzhic wrote:

Hello Hans,

Sorry for not knowing, what does GHB mean in our context?



In another Hans Åberg message less than a month ago, it was an 
abbreviation for Great Highland Bagpipe.


I tried Googling it, but got an acronym collision with Gamma 
Hydroxybutyrate, a recreational drug.



There is also the possibility of confusing it with GBH, a police 
abbreviation of grievous bodily harm, although with the history of the 
pipes in battle, that wouldn't be wide of the mark.


--
Patience serves as a protection against wrongs as clothes do against 
cold. For if you put on more clothes as the cold increases, it will have 
no power to hurt you. So in like manner you must grow in patience when 
you meet with great wrongs, and they will then be powerless to vex your 
mind. - Leonardo da Vinci, painter, engineer, musician, and scientist 
(1452-1519)


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 4 May 2018, at 15:41, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
> 
> Hello Hans,
> 
> Sorry for not knowing, what does GHB mean in our context?

The Great Highland bagpipe [1]. It is notationally interesting (LilyPond 
supports it) in that the tuning note A has drifted upwards considerably, and 
also, the mixolydian key signature is normally not written out.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Highland_bagpipe

>> The GHB is tuned to an A at around 480 Hz; some confuse it with a Bb.


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 04/05/18 17:14, Paul Scott wrote:
> On Fri, May 04, 2018 at 11:00:59AM +0100, Wols Lists wrote:
>> On 30/04/18 22:46, Torsten Hämmerle wrote:
>>> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
 I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
 typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.
>>>
>>> Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
>>> digital tuning device. ;D
>>>
>> Until you get the player (or novice conductor!) who tries to tune the
>> brass section to an A !!!
>>
>> I've had it happen - someone who insisted I tune my trombone to an A ...
> 
> Nevertheless any orchestra I've heard or played in in the US tunes to an A.
> 
> Bands tune to Bb and sometimes also to A.
> 
So if their A is out of tune, which tuning slide do they adjust? Hint -
there are TWO slides involved in an A ...

Likewise, on the 'bone, I can't tell you where I place the slide for an
A, I just "know", and a lot of that is probably micro-feedback - I hear
the note and my hand/arm just move slightly to get it in tune - tuning
to an A means I'll never adjust my tuning slide because it's actually
quite hard to play out-of-tune.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Paul Scott]

On Fri, May 04, 2018 at 11:00:59AM +0100, Wols Lists wrote:
> On 30/04/18 22:46, Torsten Hämmerle wrote:
> > Hans Åberg-2 wrote
> >> I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
> >> typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.
> > 
> > Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
> > digital tuning device. ;D
> > 
> Until you get the player (or novice conductor!) who tries to tune the
> brass section to an A !!!
> 
> I've had it happen - someone who insisted I tune my trombone to an A ...

Nevertheless any orchestra I've heard or played in in the US tunes to an A.

Bands tune to Bb and sometimes also to A.

Paul


> 
> Cheers,
> Wol
> 
> 
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Karlin High wrote
>>> The GHB is tuned to an A at around 480 Hz; some confuse it with a Bb.
>>>
>> 
> 
> In another Hans Åberg message less than a month ago, it was an 
> abbreviation for Great Highland Bagpipe.

I suppose that's why it's called High Landpipe.




--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Aaron Hill]

On 2018-05-04 13:51, Karlin High wrote:

In another Hans Åberg message less than a month ago, it was an
abbreviation for Great Highland Bagpipe.

I tried Googling it, but got an acronym collision with Gamma
Hydroxybutyrate, a recreational drug.


Playing a GHB under the influence of GHB.  That might be a serious 
crime, as some folks consider bagpipe music akin to assault.  (Not me, 
by the by.  I have a soft spot for a little raucous bleating.)


-- Aaron Hill

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Karlin High]

On 5/4/2018 8:41 AM, Jacques Menu Muzhic wrote:

Hello Hans,

Sorry for not knowing, what does GHB mean in our context?

JM

Le 4 mai 2018 à 14:51, Hans Åberg > a écrit :


The GHB is tuned to an A at around 480 Hz; some confuse it with a Bb.





In another Hans Åberg message less than a month ago, it was an 
abbreviation for Great Highland Bagpipe.


I tried Googling it, but got an acronym collision with Gamma 
Hydroxybutyrate, a recreational drug.

--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Hello Hans,

Sorry for not knowing, what does GHB mean in our context?

JM

> Le 4 mai 2018 à 14:51, Hans Åberg  a écrit :
> 
>> 
>> On 4 May 2018, at 12:00, Wols Lists  wrote:
>> 
>> On 30/04/18 22:46, Torsten Hämmerle wrote:
>>> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
 I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
 typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.
>>> 
>>> Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
>>> digital tuning device. ;D
>>> 
>> Until you get the player (or novice conductor!) who tries to tune the
>> brass section to an A !!!
>> 
>> I've had it happen - someone who insisted I tune my trombone to an A ...
> 
> The GHB is tuned to an A at around 480 Hz; some confuse it with a Bb.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 4 May 2018, at 12:00, Wols Lists  wrote:
> 
> On 30/04/18 22:46, Torsten Hämmerle wrote:
>> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>>> I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
>>> typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.
>> 
>> Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
>> digital tuning device. ;D
>> 
> Until you get the player (or novice conductor!) who tries to tune the
> brass section to an A !!!
> 
> I've had it happen - someone who insisted I tune my trombone to an A ...

The GHB is tuned to an A at around 480 Hz; some confuse it with a Bb.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 4 May 2018, at 12:00, Wols Lists  wrote:
> 
> On 30/04/18 22:46, Torsten Hämmerle wrote:
>> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>>> I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
>>> typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.
>> 
>> Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
>> digital tuning device. ;D
>> 
> Until you get the player (or novice conductor!) who tries to tune the
> brass section to an A !!!
> 
> I've had it happen - someone who insisted I tune my trombone to an A ...

The GHB is tuned to an A at around 480 Hz; some confuse it with a Bb.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2018-05-04 um 12:48 schrieb Wols Lists :
> (Oh - and something to watch for with *OLD* brass instruments, if they
> were band instruments they are typically tuned to something
> approximating Vienna pitch - they are noticeably sharp, something like
> A=460. Causes fun when you mix old and new instruments ...)

Similar if you try to mix baroque ("normal") and renaissance recorders.

Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
https://www.fiee.net





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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 04/05/18 11:34, Aaron Hill wrote:
> As a piano/keyboards/bass/guitar player here who has only played with an
> "orchestra" for high school musicals many moons ago, you have me
> wondering now:
> 
> From what I thought happened, the oboist tunes to the piano if one is
> used or to a tuner otherwise.  From that point, I assume all the
> woodwinds can match the A and tune themselves.  Strings usually have an
> open A, and then they can tune the rest by fourths/fifths.  When and how
> do the brass typically get their reference pitch?

The majority of brass instruments are Bb instruments, so obviously,
that's the main reference pitch. In my concert band, we tune to the
oboe's Bb, or Eb and F for the Eb and F instruments.

In a brass band we just tune to the principal cornet. Quite what we do
with the Eb instruments, I'm not sure, since I've never played one and
it's never crossed my mind to notice ... :-)

(Oh - and something to watch for with *OLD* brass instruments, if they
were band instruments they are typically tuned to something
approximating Vienna pitch - they are noticeably sharp, something like
A=460. Causes fun when you mix old and new instruments ...)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Aaron Hill]

On 2018-05-04 10:00, Wols Lists wrote:

I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.


Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates 
the

digital tuning device. ;D


Until you get the player (or novice conductor!) who tries to tune the
brass section to an A !!!

I've had it happen - someone who insisted I tune my trombone to an A 
...


Wols,

As a piano/keyboards/bass/guitar player here who has only played with an 
"orchestra" for high school musicals many moons ago, you have me 
wondering now:


From what I thought happened, the oboist tunes to the piano if one is 
used or to a tuner otherwise.  From that point, I assume all the 
woodwinds can match the A and tune themselves.  Strings usually have an 
open A, and then they can tune the rest by fourths/fifths.  When and how 
do the brass typically get their reference pitch?


-- Aaron Hill

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 30/04/18 22:46, Torsten Hämmerle wrote:
> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>> I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
>> typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.
> 
> Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
> digital tuning device. ;D
> 
Until you get the player (or novice conductor!) who tries to tune the
brass section to an A !!!

I've had it happen - someone who insisted I tune my trombone to an A ...

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Hello,

A friend of ours hired a pianist and a violin player, both skilled 
professionals, for his 50th birthday. The pianist took scores from his bag, 
placed them on the piano, and they played.

A the beginning of a new piece, the violin player had the previous one still in 
mind, and played the wrong note, then immediately fixed the position to match 
the new tonality.

I’s been a very nice experience for an amateur musician as myself, in which I 
clearly heard what a coma is.

JM


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 04/05/18 00:48, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> I didn’t get that far into trumpet playing — I switched to trombone as soon 
> as I could, because it better suited my embouchure — but I got far enough to 
> realize that I could do a *lot* of "tuning" with those limited valves and 
> slides. Based on that experience, I feel sure that if I got [a lot?] better, 
> I would be able to play in equal or just temperament, as desired.

You sound like me :-) I started on the cornet and switched to trombone. ...

But I'm looking at it as a physicist. HOW do you tune all those notes to
equal temperament on an instrument that does not have sufficient
adjustable nobs to do so? It can't be done.

What you CAN do, what I'm sure you've done, and what I see happen all
the time in my band, is that players can adjust - "bend" - the tone with
their embouchure. And that bending can be massive - I've heard of a
trombone teacher who suddenly realised the boy he was teaching could
only reach fourth position, but was successfully playing a bottom B
natural! (4th position is a D for non-trombonists.) The lad was bending
the note three semitones!

So I'm not saying you can't play equal temperament, or whatever you
want. I'm just saying that you can't tune the instrument to it, you just
have to "play it by ear" and "bend" the note.

Which is why my comment/question basically boils down to "what
*practical* difference does it make?". And the answer seems to be "None,
in *most* cases". Which is why I'm getting a little het up because so
many people seem to be coming across as "everyone should do it because
it matters for my corner case".

Sorry if that upsets people, but if a question is about a monotonic
instrument, don't drag your chord-playing corner case into the
discussion. (I was left with the strong feeling that this is exactly
what happened with my post - everybody discussed their corner case and
nobody actually bothered to read my question. And if I do that to other
people, feel free to call me on it ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Wols,

> It's not *possible* to tune a brass instrument to equal temperament -
> it has at max 5 tuning slides to tune 12 pitches and
> typically about 40 notes!

Perhaps you ran (are running) into a semantic conflict?

I notice there are many [civil and educated] discussions on trumpet and horn 
forums (mailing lists, etc.) about how to deal with equal and just 
temperaments, which to use in auditions [!!], etc. Are they all mistaken?

I didn’t get that far into trumpet playing — I switched to trombone as soon as 
I could, because it better suited my embouchure — but I got far enough to 
realize that I could do a *lot* of "tuning" with those limited valves and 
slides. Based on that experience, I feel sure that if I got [a lot?] better, I 
would be able to play in equal or just temperament, as desired.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 30/04/18 20:54, Malte Meyn wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 30.04.2018 um 15:50 schrieb Hans Åberg:
>> But orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so
>> they are not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
> 
> Which orchestral instruments do you refer to? All instruments that I
> know good enough use equal temperament or a good approximation. I don’t
> know an orchestral instrument that has different ways to play E♭ and D♯ …
> 
You're confusing equal temperament with monotonic.

Just because an instrument uses the same fingering for Eb and D# (on a
trumpet that would be first valve, I believe), doesn't mean that the
note is equal temperament, or an accurate Eb or D#. And it's a pretty
safe bet that if the player plays the two notes an octave apart they
almost certainly aren't an accurate octave ... an Eb, a D#, and the
equal temperament fudge are three distinct notes, and your trumpet is
probably playing a fourth. True, they're all ALMOST the same ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 30/04/18 20:32, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:11, Wols Lists  wrote:
>>
>> On 30/04/18 14:50, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>>
 On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic  
 wrote:

 OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.
>>>
>>> FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying enharmonic 
>>> equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation suggests applying 
>>> them to simplify for harpists, which will save time and money. But 
>>> orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are 
>>> not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
>>>
>> Which actually matters how?
>>
>> Apart from the violins and the trombone, most instruments just play the
>> pitch to which they are tuned, so Bbb and A are the same fingering, and
>> the same note.
>>
>> Yes I know most decent wind musicians can "bend" the tuning, but surely
>> they'll bend it by ear into tune, not to some arbitrary note name.
> 
> One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is 
> typically the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean, but can 
> adapt into 5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the 
> Traditional Harmony rules. That becomes more difficult in distant keys.
> 
> 
WHAT STRING SECTION!?!?!?

Yes, I happened to mention violins as instruments which can tune a note
"on the fly", as can my instrument the trombone, but the majority of
instruments can NOT.

Plus, I'm unaware of Jazz ensembles having a string section - they might
have a double bass though, and the ensembles I play with (concert or
brass bands, I used to play in a big band) never include strings.

So, the question remains. Why - FOR THE MAJORITY OF INSTRUMENTS WHICH
ARE MONOTONIC AND DO NOT "TUNE ON THE FLY" - does it matter whether a
note is an A or a Bbb? There's sweet fa the player can do about it, anyway.

I remember having a similar "heated argument" with a guy on another
mailing list who insisted that instruments - let's say a trumpet -
should be tuned to equal temperament and any player who couldn't do it
should be sacked. It's not *possible* to tune a brass instrument to
equal temperament - it has at max 5 tuning slides to tune 12 pitches and
typically about 40 notes!

I take the point of various people that, for SOME instruments, you
really do want an obvious chord structure, but for most instruments,
especially those that cannot play chords, do the players really give a
monkeys? They just pitch-bend the tune to their neighbours.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Hello Torsten,

Thanks for the clarification, it is very much appreciated. Will triple 
accidentals be supported as of 2.20?

Incidentally, the OP launched a very interesting discussion on the wider 
subject of notation and modes.

A nice day!

JM

> Le 30 avr. 2018 à 21:39, Torsten Hämmerle  a écrit :
> 
> Jacques Menu Muzhic wrote
>> Going a bit further, I bumped into this case.
>> 
>> Since the note at some interval from another one keeps its pitch name in
>> its different « variants », how about Db’s seconds?
>> 
>> diminished second   Ebbb ???
>> minor secondEbb
>> major secondEb
>> augemented second   E
>> 
>> I’m sure no one ever uses triple flats though, must have missed something…
> 
> Well, incidentally, LilyPond is just about to get triple flats and triple
> sharps (issue 3356).
> And, yes, they do exist.
> 
> That's the triple flat accidental in LilyPond's Emmentaler font:
> 
>  
> 
> And even LilyPond's \chordmode will use triple accidentals if needed (these
> chords don't work in the current official releases yet):
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Extremely hard to find in real life, but yes, triple accidentals do exist.
> 
> All the best,
> Torsten
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html
> 
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[J Martin Rushton]

> Try .  Look how Frans
> Brüggen is not just working with his fingers but also with his cheeks
> (and deduce what he is doing with his breath) and mouth and recorder
> angle.

Thankyou



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[David Kastrup]

J Martin Rushton  writes:

> Have a listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcI8KV4ftCk and then
> tell me the recorder isn't a serious instrument.

Try .  Look how Frans
Brüggen is not just working with his fingers but also with his cheeks
(and deduce what he is doing with his breath) and mouth and recorder
angle.

This side track of the discussion was about the ubiquity of starting
school children on recorders.

> If you want _real_ agony, try listening to beginners on a violin - the
> cat's revenge.

But the remedy on a violin's pitch deviations is much more direct once
you become aware of them.  With regard to pitch correctness,
intermediate violin players tend to be less cruel than intermediate
recorder players.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[J Martin Rushton]

On 01/05/18 10:08, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>> On 1 May 2018, at 11:00, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>
>> Hans Åberg  writes:
>>
 On 1 May 2018, at 10:34, David Kastrup  wrote:

 Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
 contexts already.
>>>
>>> The recorders used in schools are an idea from Carl Orff, with the
>>> idea that it is inexpensive. Therefore, one made a modern recorder
>>> tuning that should be simpler, but without the capacity of the Baroque
>>> tuning. But, as it turn out, it is a bad instrument to start playing
>>> when little, because the fingers motoric is not fully developed. So
>>> that got the recorder a bad reputation instead.
>>>
 I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of
 prim girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't
 even think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the
 intonation to be expected and everybody clapped politely.  The
 proceeded to WH blow out their mouthpieces, then played
 another piece.  WHEEE.  And another.  WHEEE.  I think they
 proceeded to murder the whole booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more
 than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.
>>>
>>> Give thanks to Carl Orff for that.
>>
>> The recorders were merely the weapon.  The booklet contained the
>> ammunition and the idea of a cartridge clip is usually not to empty it
>> all in one go.
>>
>> At any rate, I am sure that Orff is in an afterlife where angelic little
>> beings are playing recorder to him.
> 
> Or devilish little creatures playing the soprano recorders used in schools.
> 
Have a listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcI8KV4ftCk and then
tell me the recorder isn't a serious instrument.  If you want _real_
agony, try listening to beginners on a violin - the cat's revenge.

A week or so ago I was at a concert by Red Priest featuring Piers Adams
on recorder.  Absolutely fabulous; you could hear a pin drop, even with
an audience roughly 50% schoolgirls.  It made me realise how little I've
learnt in half a century of playing.  I'll go and cry into my beer.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 11:00, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg  writes:
> 
>>> On 1 May 2018, at 10:34, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
>>> contexts already.
>> 
>> The recorders used in schools are an idea from Carl Orff, with the
>> idea that it is inexpensive. Therefore, one made a modern recorder
>> tuning that should be simpler, but without the capacity of the Baroque
>> tuning. But, as it turn out, it is a bad instrument to start playing
>> when little, because the fingers motoric is not fully developed. So
>> that got the recorder a bad reputation instead.
>> 
>>> I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of
>>> prim girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't
>>> even think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the
>>> intonation to be expected and everybody clapped politely.  The
>>> proceeded to WH blow out their mouthpieces, then played
>>> another piece.  WHEEE.  And another.  WHEEE.  I think they
>>> proceeded to murder the whole booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more
>>> than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.
>> 
>> Give thanks to Carl Orff for that.
> 
> The recorders were merely the weapon.  The booklet contained the
> ammunition and the idea of a cartridge clip is usually not to empty it
> all in one go.
> 
> At any rate, I am sure that Orff is in an afterlife where angelic little
> beings are playing recorder to him.

Or devilish little creatures playing the soprano recorders used in schools.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[David Kastrup]

Hans Åberg  writes:

>> On 1 May 2018, at 10:34, David Kastrup  wrote:
>> 
>> Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
>> contexts already.
>
> The recorders used in schools are an idea from Carl Orff, with the
> idea that it is inexpensive. Therefore, one made a modern recorder
> tuning that should be simpler, but without the capacity of the Baroque
> tuning. But, as it turn out, it is a bad instrument to start playing
> when little, because the fingers motoric is not fully developed. So
> that got the recorder a bad reputation instead.
>
>> I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of
>> prim girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't
>> even think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the
>> intonation to be expected and everybody clapped politely.  The
>> proceeded to WH blow out their mouthpieces, then played
>> another piece.  WHEEE.  And another.  WHEEE.  I think they
>> proceeded to murder the whole booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more
>> than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.
>
> Give thanks to Carl Orff for that.

The recorders were merely the weapon.  The booklet contained the
ammunition and the idea of a cartridge clip is usually not to empty it
all in one go.

At any rate, I am sure that Orff is in an afterlife where angelic little
beings are playing recorder to him.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 10:34, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg  writes:
> 
>>> On 1 May 2018, at 00:42, J Martin Rushton
>> 
>>> For a lot of earlier music it can be difficult to know if "flauto" is a
>>> flauto dolce (sweet flute - recorder) or a flauto transvero (sp?).
> 
> More like flauto traverso.  The terminal "o" makes obvious that we are
> talking about Italian rather than Latin, and "trans" did not retain all
> of its letters there.
> 
>> It was a claim about J.S. Bach, who seemed to favor more expressive
>> instruments. But performers of recorders are nowadays good.
> 
> Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
> contexts already.

The recorders used in schools are an idea from Carl Orff, with the idea that it 
is inexpensive. Therefore, one made a modern recorder tuning that should be 
simpler, but without the capacity of the Baroque tuning. But, as it turn out, 
it is a bad instrument to start playing when little, because the fingers 
motoric is not fully developed. So that got the recorder a bad reputation 
instead.

> I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of prim
> girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't even
> think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the intonation to be
> expected and everybody clapped politely.  The proceeded to WH
> blow out their mouthpieces, then played another piece.  WHEEE.  And
> another.  WHEEE.  I think they proceeded to murder the whole
> booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.

Give thanks to Carl Orff for that.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 09:23, Malte Meyn  wrote:
> 
> Am 30.04.2018 um 22:11 schrieb Hans Åberg:
>>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:47, Malte Meyn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Am 30.04.2018 um 21:32 schrieb Hans Åberg:
 One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is 
 typically the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean,
>>> 
>>> Many string players tune their perfect fifths a bit small so that they’re 
>>> near to equal temperament (700 ct) or even smaller instead of just (702 ct).
>> So how do they tune their violins?
> 
> Tune a fifth perfectly just and then make it a little bit smaller. This of 
> course needs experience so that it’s only 2 ct smaller.

But they still bow when tuning, and not using a chromatic tuner.

>> And why would an orchestra do this: it increases the beats in the chords.
> 
> It increases beats only in the fifths of open strings. All other fifths and 
> other intervals in general can be adjusted by the players. And it’s nicer to 
> have a 400 ct third C–E than 408 ct as a starting point for such adjustments.

If they do not play the retuned fifths harmonically that might be OK in 
harmony, but in melody, Pythagorean tuning sounds better to me than E12.

 but can adapt into 5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the 
 Traditional Harmony rules.
>>> 
>>> They could, yes. But I think that most intonation in choir and orchestra is 
>>> not just intonation but more or less an approximation; for example leading 
>>> notes are often played higher than just because they have more of the 
>>> leading character then. And just intonation has other problems that make it 
>>> impractical.
>> It is adaptive JI: If pivoting the chord sequence C F Dm G C, it slips a 
>> syntonic comma. So the orchestra must slide the pitch somewhere. Sounds 
>> terrible on music like organs, though.
> 
> That’s one of the problems I had in mind.

Some synth software has adaptive tuning as choice, for example, MainStage, so 
one can check what it sounds like on an organ.

> There are other reasons why just intonation, even adaptive JI isn’t really an 
> option and is not what orchestras use to play:

There is no problem for an orchestra, though. Some measurements suggest that 
when performing twelve tone music, they will actually slip into something like 
Pythagorean tuning. It does not matter, though: if there is no harmony, pithces 
can be chosen quite freely.

> for example, enharmonic equivalents in modulation (like  =  ais>) cannot really be intonated perfectly just.

Some measurements I made suggest they just play the stacked thirds which can be 
adjusted for, that is 5-limit JI. So if you do not spell it out correctly, they 
will play the stacked thirds instead.

 That becomes more difficult in distant keys.
>>> 
>>> Why should it? Just intonation works in every key.
>> Because there is no reference to the Pythagorean notes.
> 
> I’m not sure what you’re talking about here: What are these Pythagorean 
> notes? Pythagorean tuning means using only perfect fifths, that’s not just 
> intonation.

The string section open strings. There seems to be no other absolute pitch 
references in an orchestra.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[David Kastrup]

Hans Åberg  writes:

>> On 1 May 2018, at 00:42, J Martin Rushton
>
>> For a lot of earlier music it can be difficult to know if "flauto" is a
>> flauto dolce (sweet flute - recorder) or a flauto transvero (sp?).

More like flauto traverso.  The terminal "o" makes obvious that we are
talking about Italian rather than Latin, and "trans" did not retain all
of its letters there.

> It was a claim about J.S. Bach, who seemed to favor more expressive
> instruments. But performers of recorders are nowadays good.

Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
contexts already.

I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of prim
girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't even
think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the intonation to be
expected and everybody clapped politely.  The proceeded to WH
blow out their mouthpieces, then played another piece.  WHEEE.  And
another.  WHEEE.  I think they proceeded to murder the whole
booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 00:42, J Martin Rushton  
> wrote:
> 
> On 30/04/18 22:14, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:50, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>> 
 Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison,
 unlike strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on
 orchestration.
>>> 
>>> I think recorders are quite worse in that respect.
>> 
>> Recorders cannot adjust the pitch independently of dynamics, but a performer 
>> said he tries to adjust for beats. Incidentally, J.S. Bach wrote for flutes 
>> and not recorders, and at home he had a clavichord, with after key touch 
>> pitch bend.
>> 
> If you use alternative fingerings on the recorder you can subtly change
> the pitch, which combined with a breath adjustment in the other way
> results in a dynamic.  For instance G can be lowered by using the ring
> or little finger of the right hand, then the breath is increased to come
> back to pitch resulting in a louder note.  In the other direction a
> leaky fingering will raise the pitch, though I must admit I've never
> mastered that technique without introducing the instability that can
> lead to a squeal.
> 
> For a lot of earlier music it can be difficult to know if "flauto" is a
> flauto dolce (sweet flute - recorder) or a flauto transvero (sp?).  It
> mainly seems to depend upon the modern speaker, regardless of the
> ancient composer! ;-)

It was a claim about J.S. Bach, who seemed to favor more expressive 
instruments. But performers of recorders are nowadays good.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 06:27, Shane Brandes  wrote:
> 
> Then there is always "what is more out of tune than two flutes? One flute"

The pitches are spaced quite unevenly if measured electronically, and the scale 
will stretch moving upwards, so that has to be mastered.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 05:34, Paul Scott  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:27:10PM +0200, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:23, Torsten Hämmerle  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
 I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of
 the operas here.
>>> 
>>> Hi Hans,
>>> 
>>> It's funny that you mention the flute of all instruments. It reminds me of
>>> the old joke
>>> "How do you get two flute players to play in unison?" - - - "Shoot one!"
>>> 
>>> No offence meant, I just couldn't resist :)
>> 
>> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison, unlike 
>> strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on orchestration.
> 
> I've only heard this joke about piccolo players where the tuning is much more
> difficult.

James Galway said in his book that it is a tricky instrument, requiring a lot 
of practise.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 04:53, Vaughan McAlley  wrote:
> 
> On 1 May 2018 at 06:27, Hans Åberg  wrote:
> 
>> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison, unlike 
>> strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on orchestration.
> 
> Flutes can adjust their pitch enough to tune well. I'm mainly a singer, but 
> when I play flute (my first instrument) I approach pitching like a singer, 
> and I rarely have tuning issues.

I also think that the flute is quite close to singing in terms of 
expressibility.

> But flute-wise, this is a pretty advanced technique.

I trained pitch by holding on certain notes and check against a tuner, 
originally a teacher, but then an electronic one.

> And flute players have to spend a lot of time practicing the semiquavers that 
> composers so love to give them :-)

The flute is easy if practising a lot. :-)

> First & second flute in a professional orchestra should be able to play a 
> unison passage just fine. I have sung in the Bach St John Passion a number of 
> times, and rarely hear problems with Ich folge dir gleichfalls, and that's 
> using baroque flutes…

It maybe be easier with those, having a softer sound.

> One of the major features of Boehm's (ie the modern) flute is that tuning (in 
> equal temperament) is more consistent. So maybe less thought is put into 
> tuning by players.

The pitches are quite uneven if measured electronically. In addition, the scale 
was not originally adjusted when the tuning rose to about 440 Hz; this is done 
in Cooper flutes.

> (Good recorder players have all sorts of tuning tricks, I believe)

Another post mentioned some.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Malte Meyn]

Am 30.04.2018 um 22:11 schrieb Hans Åberg:




On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:47, Malte Meyn  wrote:

Am 30.04.2018 um 21:32 schrieb Hans Åberg:

One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is typically 
the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean,


Many string players tune their perfect fifths a bit small so that they’re near 
to equal temperament (700 ct) or even smaller instead of just (702 ct).


So how do they tune their violins?


Tune a fifth perfectly just and then make it a little bit smaller. This 
of course needs experience so that it’s only 2 ct smaller.



And why would an orchestra do this: it increases the beats in the chords.


It increases beats only in the fifths of open strings. All other fifths 
and other intervals in general can be adjusted by the players. And it’s 
nicer to have a 400 ct third C–E than 408 ct as a starting point for 
such adjustments.



but can adapt into 5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the 
Traditional Harmony rules.


They could, yes. But I think that most intonation in choir and orchestra is not 
just intonation but more or less an approximation; for example leading notes 
are often played higher than just because they have more of the leading 
character then. And just intonation has other problems that make it impractical.


It is adaptive JI: If pivoting the chord sequence C F Dm G C, it slips a 
syntonic comma. So the orchestra must slide the pitch somewhere. Sounds 
terrible on music like organs, though.


That’s one of the problems I had in mind. There are other reasons why 
just intonation, even adaptive JI isn’t really an option and is not what 
orchestras use to play: for example, enharmonic equivalents in 
modulation (like  = ) cannot really be intonated 
perfectly just.



That becomes more difficult in distant keys.


Why should it? Just intonation works in every key.


Because there is no reference to the Pythagorean notes.


I’m not sure what you’re talking about here: What are these Pythagorean 
notes? Pythagorean tuning means using only perfect fifths, that’s not 
just intonation.


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Shane Brandes]

Then there is always "what is more out of tune than two flutes? One flute"

Shane B.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Paul Scott  wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:27:10PM +0200, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>
>> > On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:23, Torsten Hämmerle  
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>> >> I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of
>> >> the operas here.
>> >
>> > Hi Hans,
>> >
>> > It's funny that you mention the flute of all instruments. It reminds me of
>> > the old joke
>> > "How do you get two flute players to play in unison?" - - - "Shoot one!"
>> >
>> > No offence meant, I just couldn't resist :)
>>
>> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison, unlike 
>> strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on orchestration.
>
> I've only heard this joke about piccolo players where the tuning is much more
> difficult.
>
> Paul
>
>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Paul Scott]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:27:10PM +0200, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
> > On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:23, Torsten Hämmerle  wrote:
> > 
> > Hans Åberg-2 wrote
> >> I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of
> >> the operas here.
> > 
> > Hi Hans,
> > 
> > It's funny that you mention the flute of all instruments. It reminds me of
> > the old joke
> > "How do you get two flute players to play in unison?" - - - "Shoot one!"
> > 
> > No offence meant, I just couldn't resist :)
> 
> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison, unlike 
> strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on orchestration.

I've only heard this joke about piccolo players where the tuning is much more
difficult.

Paul


> 
> 
> 
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Vaughan McAlley]

On 1 May 2018 at 06:27, Hans Åberg  wrote:

>
>
> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison,
> unlike strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on orchestration.
>
>
Flutes can adjust their pitch enough to tune well. I'm mainly a singer, but
when I play flute (my first instrument) I approach pitching like a singer,
and I rarely have tuning issues. But flute-wise, this is a pretty advanced
technique. And flute players have to spend a lot of time practicing the
semiquavers that composers so love to give them :-)

First & second flute in a professional orchestra should be able to play a
unison passage just fine. I have sung in the Bach St John Passion a number
of times, and rarely hear problems with Ich folge dir gleichfalls, and
that's using baroque flutes…

One of the major features of Boehm's (ie the modern) flute is that tuning
(in equal temperament) is more consistent. So maybe less thought is put
into tuning by players.

(Good recorder players have all sorts of tuning tricks, I believe)

Vaughan
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[J Martin Rushton]

On 30/04/18 22:14, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:50, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>
>> Hans Åberg  writes:
>>
 On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:23, Torsten Hämmerle  
 wrote:

 Hans Åberg-2 wrote
> I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of
> the operas here.

 Hi Hans,

 It's funny that you mention the flute of all instruments. It reminds me of
 the old joke
 "How do you get two flute players to play in unison?" - - - "Shoot one!"

 No offence meant, I just couldn't resist :)
>>>
>>> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison,
>>> unlike strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on
>>> orchestration.
>>
>> I think recorders are quite worse in that respect.
> 
> Recorders cannot adjust the pitch independently of dynamics, but a performer 
> said he tries to adjust for beats. Incidentally, J.S. Bach wrote for flutes 
> and not recorders, and at home he had a clavichord, with after key touch 
> pitch bend.
> 
If you use alternative fingerings on the recorder you can subtly change
the pitch, which combined with a breath adjustment in the other way
results in a dynamic.  For instance G can be lowered by using the ring
or little finger of the right hand, then the breath is increased to come
back to pitch resulting in a louder note.  In the other direction a
leaky fingering will raise the pitch, though I must admit I've never
mastered that technique without introducing the instability that can
lead to a squeal.

For a lot of earlier music it can be difficult to know if "flauto" is a
flauto dolce (sweet flute - recorder) or a flauto transvero (sp?).  It
mainly seems to depend upon the modern speaker, regardless of the
ancient composer! ;-)



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 23:46, Torsten Hämmerle  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>> I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
>> typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.
> 
> Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
> digital tuning device. ;D
> 
> Modern times...

They are good for developing the sense of pitch; on a flute, one stops and 
checks certain pitches, so it is difficult to do that in a performance. And one 
can use a teacher instead, but it is more expensive.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Hans Åberg-2 wrote
> I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
> typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.

Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
digital tuning device. ;D

Modern times...
Torsten



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 23:14, Torsten Hämmerle  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison,
>> unlike strings then.
> 
> Thank you, that's a good explanation.

So it is the incompetent composer one should go after.

> Comparing the harmonic spectra of flutes and violins or when trying to
> capture the sound characteristics using a synthesizer, this is what usually
> comes out:
> When creating flute-like sounds, the result is not far from a sine wave.
> In contrast, when creating a string-like sound, one would use a sawtooth
> wave (because of its richness in harmonics).

Flutes with wider mouth-hole can produce more harmonics, but the 7th partial, 
even thought possible on the lower notes, is normally avoided. - I checked 
James Galway playing Syrinx on this.

> The predominant fundamental frequency is the reason for the definite pitch
> of a flute and that's why the slightest deviation in pitch is very audible
> when several players play together.

Just don't have them playin unison - Beethoven wrote a piece for two flutes, in 
thirds and crossing lines to make them more interesting for the performers.

> A clarinet (having a spectrum without even harmonics due to the cylindrical
> bore, that'd be a square wave) is the next-best candidate for the
> play-unison jokes.

A clarinet only has strong odd partials, which is due to the bore, and blows 
over on the partial, unlike a sax, which blows over on the octave. I suspect 
the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one typically uses that for 
a tuning reference pitch.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[David Kastrup]

Torsten Hämmerle  writes:

> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison,
>> unlike strings then.
>
> Thank you, that's a good explanation.
> Comparing the harmonic spectra of flutes and violins or when trying to
> capture the sound characteristics using a synthesizer, this is what usually
> comes out:
> When creating flute-like sounds, the result is not far from a sine wave.
> In contrast, when creating a string-like sound, one would use a sawtooth
> wave (because of its richness in harmonics).

The saving grace is rather the ability to microcorrect pitch when
fingering and of course, the vibrato action breaking up any fixed
beating phenomenon.  Open strings are still problematic.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:50, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg  writes:
> 
>>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:23, Torsten Hämmerle  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
 I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of
 the operas here.
>>> 
>>> Hi Hans,
>>> 
>>> It's funny that you mention the flute of all instruments. It reminds me of
>>> the old joke
>>> "How do you get two flute players to play in unison?" - - - "Shoot one!"
>>> 
>>> No offence meant, I just couldn't resist :)
>> 
>> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison,
>> unlike strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on
>> orchestration.
> 
> I think recorders are quite worse in that respect.

Recorders cannot adjust the pitch independently of dynamics, but a performer 
said he tries to adjust for beats. Incidentally, J.S. Bach wrote for flutes and 
not recorders, and at home he had a clavichord, with after key touch pitch bend.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Hans Åberg-2 wrote
> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison,
> unlike strings then.

Thank you, that's a good explanation.
Comparing the harmonic spectra of flutes and violins or when trying to
capture the sound characteristics using a synthesizer, this is what usually
comes out:
When creating flute-like sounds, the result is not far from a sine wave.
In contrast, when creating a string-like sound, one would use a sawtooth
wave (because of its richness in harmonics).

The predominant fundamental frequency is the reason for the definite pitch
of a flute and that's why the slightest deviation in pitch is very audible
when several players play together.

A clarinet (having a spectrum without even harmonics due to the cylindrical
bore, that'd be a square wave) is the next-best candidate for the
play-unison jokes.

All the best,
Torsten




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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[David Kastrup]

Hans Åberg  writes:

>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:23, Torsten Hämmerle  wrote:
>> 
>> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>>> I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of
>>> the operas here.
>> 
>> Hi Hans,
>> 
>> It's funny that you mention the flute of all instruments. It reminds me of
>> the old joke
>> "How do you get two flute players to play in unison?" - - - "Shoot one!"
>> 
>> No offence meant, I just couldn't resist :)
>
> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison,
> unlike strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on
> orchestration.

I think recorders are quite worse in that respect.

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:23, Torsten Hämmerle  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>> I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of
>> the operas here.
> 
> Hi Hans,
> 
> It's funny that you mention the flute of all instruments. It reminds me of
> the old joke
> "How do you get two flute players to play in unison?" - - - "Shoot one!"
> 
> No offence meant, I just couldn't resist :)

Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison, unlike 
strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on orchestration.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Hans Åberg-2 wrote
> I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of
> the operas here.

Hi Hans,

It's funny that you mention the flute of all instruments. It reminds me of
the old joke
"How do you get two flute players to play in unison?" - - - "Shoot one!"

No offence meant, I just couldn't resist :)
Torsten



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:47, Malte Meyn  wrote:
> 
> Am 30.04.2018 um 21:32 schrieb Hans Åberg:
>> One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is 
>> typically the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean,
> 
> Many string players tune their perfect fifths a bit small so that they’re 
> near to equal temperament (700 ct) or even smaller instead of just (702 ct).

So how do they tune their violins? And why would an orchestra do this: it 
increases the beats in the chords.

>> but can adapt into 5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the 
>> Traditional Harmony rules.
> 
> They could, yes. But I think that most intonation in choir and orchestra is 
> not just intonation but more or less an approximation; for example leading 
> notes are often played higher than just because they have more of the leading 
> character then. And just intonation has other problems that make it 
> impractical.

It is adaptive JI: If pivoting the chord sequence C F Dm G C, it slips a 
syntonic comma. So the orchestra must slide the pitch somewhere. Sounds 
terrible on music like organs, though.

>> That becomes more difficult in distant keys.
> 
> Why should it? Just intonation works in every key.

Because there is no reference to the Pythagorean notes.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:54, Malte Meyn  wrote:
> 
> Am 30.04.2018 um 15:50 schrieb Hans Åberg:
>> But orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they 
>> are not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
> 
> Which orchestral instruments do you refer to? All instruments that I know 
> good enough use equal temperament or a good approximation. I don’t know an 
> orchestral instrument that has different ways to play E♭ and D♯ …

I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of the 
operas here.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:54, Malte Meyn  wrote:
> 
> Am 30.04.2018 um 15:50 schrieb Hans Åberg:
>> But orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they 
>> are not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
> 
> Which orchestral instruments do you refer to? All instruments that I know 
> good enough use equal temperament or a good approximation. I don’t know an 
> orchestral instrument that has different ways to play E♭ and D♯ …

I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits in one of the 
operas here.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Malte Meyn]

Am 30.04.2018 um 15:50 schrieb Hans Åberg:

But orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are 
not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.


Which orchestral instruments do you refer to? All instruments that I 
know good enough use equal temperament or a good approximation. I don’t 
know an orchestral instrument that has different ways to play E♭ and D♯ …


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Malte Meyn]

Am 30.04.2018 um 21:32 schrieb Hans Åberg:

One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is typically 
the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean,


Many string players tune their perfect fifths a bit small so that 
they’re near to equal temperament (700 ct) or even smaller instead of 
just (702 ct).



but can adapt into 5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the 
Traditional Harmony rules.


They could, yes. But I think that most intonation in choir and orchestra 
is not just intonation but more or less an approximation; for example 
leading notes are often played higher than just because they have more 
of the leading character then. And just intonation has other problems 
that make it impractical.



That becomes more difficult in distant keys.


Why should it? Just intonation works in every key.

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Jacques Menu Muzhic wrote
> Going a bit further, I bumped into this case.
> 
> Since the note at some interval from another one keeps its pitch name in
> its different « variants », how about Db’s seconds?
> 
>  diminished second   Ebbb ???
>  minor secondEbb
>  major secondEb
>  augemented second   E
> 
> I’m sure no one ever uses triple flats though, must have missed something…

Well, incidentally, LilyPond is just about to get triple flats and triple
sharps (issue 3356).
And, yes, they do exist.

That's the triple flat accidental in LilyPond's Emmentaler font:

 

And even LilyPond's \chordmode will use triple accidentals if needed (these
chords don't work in the current official releases yet):


 


Extremely hard to find in real life, but yes, triple accidentals do exist.

All the best,
Torsten



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:11, Wols Lists  wrote:
> 
> On 30/04/18 14:50, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
>>> 
>>> OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.
>> 
>> FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying enharmonic 
>> equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation suggests applying 
>> them to simplify for harpists, which will save time and money. But 
>> orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are 
>> not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
>> 
> Which actually matters how?
> 
> Apart from the violins and the trombone, most instruments just play the
> pitch to which they are tuned, so Bbb and A are the same fingering, and
> the same note.
> 
> Yes I know most decent wind musicians can "bend" the tuning, but surely
> they'll bend it by ear into tune, not to some arbitrary note name.

One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is typically 
the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean, but can adapt into 
5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the Traditional Harmony 
rules. That becomes more difficult in distant keys.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:11, Wols Lists  wrote:
> 
> On 30/04/18 14:50, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
>>> 
>>> OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.
>> 
>> FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying enharmonic 
>> equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation suggests applying 
>> them to simplify for harpists, which will save time and money. But 
>> orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are 
>> not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
>> 
> Which actually matters how?
> 
> Apart from the violins and the trombone, most instruments just play the
> pitch to which they are tuned, so Bbb and A are the same fingering, and
> the same note.
> 
> Yes I know most decent wind musicians can "bend" the tuning, but surely
> they'll bend it by ear into tune, not to some arbitrary note name.

One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is typically 
the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean, but can adapt into 
5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the Traditional Harmony 
rules. That becomes more difficult in distant keys.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[David Kastrup]

Wols Lists  writes:

> On 30/04/18 14:50, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
>>>
>>> OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.
>> 
>> FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying
>> enharmonic equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation
>> suggests applying them to simplify for harpists, which will save
>> time and money. But orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean
>> tuning, not E12, so they are not equivalent, differing by a comma of
>> about 20 cents.
>> 
> Which actually matters how?
>
> Apart from the violins and the trombone, most instruments just play the
> pitch to which they are tuned, so Bbb and A are the same fingering, and
> the same note.

Not using the correct pitch "spellings" means that the chord stackings
lose their "functional" character.  You stop being able to see at a
glance whether there is a seventh or a sixth, for example.  That's bad
on an instrument like the piano since you lose the connection between
the expectation of a particular sound and its execution, and it's worse
for an instrument like the accordion where particular chords are
produced by pressing particular buttons, like Cmaj7 as c (major) and em.
If you cannot see the function of a chord, figuring out the button
combinations is close to impossible.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 30/04/18 14:50, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
>>
>> OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.
> 
> FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying enharmonic 
> equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation suggests applying 
> them to simplify for harpists, which will save time and money. But orchestral 
> instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are not 
> equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
> 
Which actually matters how?

Apart from the violins and the trombone, most instruments just play the
pitch to which they are tuned, so Bbb and A are the same fingering, and
the same note.

Yes I know most decent wind musicians can "bend" the tuning, but surely
they'll bend it by ear into tune, not to some arbitrary note name.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 20:15, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
> 
> Going a bit further, I bumped into this case.
> 
> Since the note at some interval from another one keeps its pitch name in its 
> different « variants », how about Db’s seconds?
> 
> diminished second   Ebbb ???
> minor secondEbb
> major secondEb
> augemented second   E
> 
> I’m sure no one ever uses triple flats though, must have missed something…

Use the two-dimensional keyboard layout below, extending them as necessary: Put 
in a chord which you know, and transpose it, or move from the one diagram to 
the other. A seven-note diatonic scale will always have all seven note names.

   ^ #
  /
 . -> M
/ \
 b v   v m
where M (resp. m) is the major (resp. minor) second, and the
the sharp # (resp. flat b) raises (resp lower) with the interval
M - m, that is, the difference between the major and minor seconds.

Resulting key pattern, in a scale using names A B C D E F G:
  C#  D#  E#
C   D   E   F#  G#  A#  B#
  Cb  Db  Eb  F   G   A   B
Fb  Gb  Ab  Bb  C'
In terms of traditional interval names, writing
  P  pure
  M  major
  m  minor
  A  augmented
  D  diminished
plus numbers: 1st, 2nd, etc., this is
  A1  A2  A3
P1  M2  M3  A4  A5  A6  A7
  D1  m2  m3  P4  P5  M6  M7  A8
D2  D3  D4  D5  m6  m7  P8
  D2


>> Le 30 avr. 2018 à 15:50, Hans Åberg  a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>>> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
>>> 
>>> OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.
>> 
>> FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying enharmonic 
>> equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation suggests applying 
>> them to simplify for harpists, which will save time and money. But 
>> orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are 
>> not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Going a bit further, I bumped into this case.

Since the note at some interval from another one keeps its pitch name in its 
different « variants », how about Db’s seconds?

 diminished second   Ebbb ???
 minor secondEbb
 major secondEb
 augemented second   E

I’m sure no one ever uses triple flats though, must have missed something…

JM

> Le 30 avr. 2018 à 15:50, Hans Åberg  a écrit :
> 
> 
>> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
>> 
>> OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.
> 
> FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying enharmonic 
> equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation suggests applying 
> them to simplify for harpists, which will save time and money. But orchestral 
> instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are not 
> equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
> 
> 


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
> 
> OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.

FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying enharmonic 
equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation suggests applying them 
to simplify for harpists, which will save time and money. But orchestral 
instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are not 
equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Vaughan McAlley]

On 30 April 2018 at 03:50, Torsten Hämmerle 
wrote:

>
> An exception may be orchestral parts (as mentioned by Lukas).
> On the one hand, many (non-professional) players of monophonic instruments
> often prefer an easy-to-read line avoiding "unnecessary" double accidentals
> and do not care very much about the harmonic role they play in the overall
> sound.
> On the other hand, it is desirable to write down the notes as they are
> intended...
>
>
Yes, correctly spelled notes convey important information to stronger
musicians. If your strategy is put your fingers down, blow, and hope for
the best, you can always write an A above a Bbb.

Vaughan
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Salut Torsten,

OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.

Thanks!

JM

> Le 29 avr. 2018 à 19:50, Torsten Hämmerle  a écrit :
> 
> Jacques Menu Muzhic wrote
>> Do I get it right that this is key-independent too for the diminished
>> fifth of E flat?
> 
> Salut Jacques,
> 
> Yes, a diminished E flat chord will always be a diminished E flat chord,
> consisting of the notes E flat + G + B doubleflat. no matter what key you're
> in.
> And it's quite important to use the correct notation, because the harmonic
> content is much more obvious then.
> I just recently learned about the nice German didactic word
> "Schneemann-Akkord" (snowman chord), describing a triad in root position:
> Three note heads piled up like a snowman. ;)
> If you apply any enharmonic change, the visually easy-to-grasp triad form
> will be lost. The (jazz) principle of building chords by stacking thirds is
> relying on, well, the thirds and the system would be broken by shoving in a
> second (B-A is a second).
> 
> An exception may be orchestral parts (as mentioned by Lukas).
> On the one hand, many (non-professional) players of monophonic instruments
> often prefer an easy-to-read line avoiding "unnecessary" double accidentals
> and do not care very much about the harmonic role they play in the overall
> sound.
> On the other hand, it is desirable to write down the notes as they are
> intended...
> 
> All the best,
> Torsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Jacques Menu Muzhic wrote
> Do I get it right that this is key-independent too for the diminished
> fifth of E flat?

Salut Jacques,

Yes, a diminished E flat chord will always be a diminished E flat chord,
consisting of the notes E flat + G + B doubleflat. no matter what key you're
in.
And it's quite important to use the correct notation, because the harmonic
content is much more obvious then.
I just recently learned about the nice German didactic word
"Schneemann-Akkord" (snowman chord), describing a triad in root position:
Three note heads piled up like a snowman. ;)
If you apply any enharmonic change, the visually easy-to-grasp triad form
will be lost. The (jazz) principle of building chords by stacking thirds is
relying on, well, the thirds and the system would be broken by shoving in a
second (B-A is a second).

An exception may be orchestral parts (as mentioned by Lukas).
On the one hand, many (non-professional) players of monophonic instruments
often prefer an easy-to-read line avoiding "unnecessary" double accidentals
and do not care very much about the harmonic role they play in the overall
sound.
On the other hand, it is desirable to write down the notes as they are
intended...

All the best,
Torsten




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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

Hello Lukas,

Thanks for your answer.

In fact, it not the interval name, but the note such as B double flat that 
concerns me currently.

Do I get it right that this is key-independent too for the diminished fifth of 
E flat?

JM 

> Le 29 avr. 2018 à 18:41, Lukas-Fabian Moser  a écrit :
> 
> Jacques,
> 
>> Say I’m considering chords with an E flat root.
>> 
>> Is is always true that:
>> 
>>  - the diminished fifth is B double flat
>>  - the augmented fifth is B natural
>> 
>>  - the diminished unisson is E double flat
>>  - the augmented unisson is E natural
>> 
>> or can this depend on the tonality of the music that contains these Eb based 
>> chords, say D major, in which case enharmonic notes should be used instead?
> 
> I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly. If your question is 
> (regardless of Lilypond) whether interval names are "key-independent" then: 
> yes, they are. (There are contexts in historic music, mainly thorough-bass, 
> where the figure 5 means "a fifth of whatever size it happens to be in the 
> current tonality". But there, the point is that "5" means "fifth", not 
> "perfect fifth".)
> 
> If your question focuses on which note should be _notated_: well, that's a 
> different story (and a matter for the composer to decide, not the engraver). 
> It depends heavily on style and origin of the music, the instrument etc. For 
> instance, it's quite common to use "wrong" enharmonic spellings for 
> transposing woodwinds to get easier notation.
> 
> Best
> Lukas
> 
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Jacques,


Say I’m considering chords with an E flat root.

Is is always true that:

- the diminished fifth is B double flat
- the augmented fifth is B natural

- the diminished unisson is E double flat
- the augmented unisson is E natural

or can this depend on the tonality of the music that contains these Eb based 
chords, say D major, in which case enharmonic notes should be used instead?


I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly. If your question 
is (regardless of Lilypond) whether interval names are "key-independent" 
then: yes, they are. (There are contexts in historic music, mainly 
thorough-bass, where the figure 5 means "a fifth of whatever size it 
happens to be in the current tonality". But there, the point is that "5" 
means "fifth", not "perfect fifth".)


If your question focuses on which note should be _notated_: well, that's 
a different story (and a matter for the composer to decide, not the 
engraver). It depends heavily on style and origin of the music, the 
instrument etc. For instance, it's quite common to use "wrong" 
enharmonic spellings for transposing woodwinds to get easier notation.


Best
Lukas

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Intervals enharmony question

[Menu Jacques]

Hello folks,

Say I’m considering chords with an E flat root. 

Is is always true that:

- the diminished fifth is B double flat
- the augmented fifth is B natural

- the diminished unisson is E double flat
- the augmented unisson is E natural

or can this depend on the tonality of the music that contains these Eb based 
chords, say D major, in which case enharmonic notes should be used instead?

Thanks for you help!

JM


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