Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Phil Holmes]

On 06/11/2021 14:06, Kevin Cole wrote:

I click Learning Manual. Still good. https remains. I am now at
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/learning/index#top

I click the search bar at the bottom of the green sidebar table of
contents... And get a pop-up in red text:


"This form is not secure. Autofill has been turned off."

I continue anyway. Aaaand. https has gone away, And v2.20 is now
v2.19. I am now at:

http://google.com/search?btnG=Google+Search&brute_query=beats&q=site%3Alilypond.org%2Fdoc%2Fv2.19+beats


"The information you’re about to submit is not secure"
"Because this form is being submitted using a connection that’s not secure,"
"your information will be visible to others."

I can (and do) click the "Send anyway" and get to what I want.
However, the fact remains that the search submission is clearly not
playing by the same rules as the rest of the links.

Folks can blame the browser (or the user) but the behavior remains
unexpected. and again, not something I encounter on any other site.

If you were to upgrade to the latest stable release, instead of using 
one about 18 months old, you would find the search bar works correctly 
and points to the https page.  The pages for 2.20 are clearly wrong in 
pointing at 2.19, but I would not have expected them to point to the 
https pages because of their age.


--

Phil Holmes

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 06.11.2021 um 15:06 schrieb Kevin Cole :
> 
> I click Learning Manual. Still good. https remains. I am now at
> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/learning/index#top
> 
> I click the search bar at the bottom of the green sidebar table of
> contents... And get a pop-up in red text:
> 
>> "This form is not secure. Autofill has been turned off."
> 
> I continue anyway. Aaaand. https has gone away, And v2.20 is now
> v2.19. I am now at:

The search form of 2.20 points to 2.19; it has nothing to do with your browser.

Hraban

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Kevin Cole]

I' m using Brave. Version 1.31.88 Chromium: 95.0.4638.69 (Official
Build) (64-bit)

I enter https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/ and am redirected to
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/web/index.html

So far, so good. https: redirects to https:

I click Manuals and again, am taken to
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/web/manuals . Still good.

I click Learning Manual. Still good. https remains. I am now at
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.20/Documentation/learning/index#top

I click the search bar at the bottom of the green sidebar table of
contents... And get a pop-up in red text:

> "This form is not secure. Autofill has been turned off."

I continue anyway. Aaaand. https has gone away, And v2.20 is now
v2.19. I am now at:

http://google.com/search?btnG=Google+Search&brute_query=beats&q=site%3Alilypond.org%2Fdoc%2Fv2.19+beats

> "The information you’re about to submit is not secure"
> "Because this form is being submitted using a connection that’s not secure,"
> "your information will be visible to others."

I can (and do) click the "Send anyway" and get to what I want.
However, the fact remains that the search submission is clearly not
playing by the same rules as the rest of the links.

Folks can blame the browser (or the user) but the behavior remains
unexpected. and again, not something I encounter on any other site.

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Paul Hodges]

 So if any webpage uses SSL the internet would suddenly require noticably more 
power. 

This week I've seen a survey reporting that there are currently about 
200,000,000 active websites, and that 100,000,000 are https.  It's reached 50%, 
and will continue growing.


Paul

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[David Kastrup]

Valentin Petzel  writes:

> What browser are you using? Rejecting a page without SSL is somewhat
> stupid. For many webpages the only benefit of SSL is that you have a
> certificate that the content is correct. While certainly it would be
> possible to do some man-in-the-middle attack tricking you into having
> Lilypond into executing arbitrary scheme code it is still safe to say
> that most likely SSL does not matter for Lilypond.

PDF files can execute JavaScript, so do many webpages, and the LilyPond
downloads are certainly security-relevant as well.

> But SSL is not free, it requires a bit of computation power. Google
> even once redirectes https to http because the load was too high. So
> if any webpage uses SSL the internet would suddenly require noticably
> more power.

That ship has more or less sailed these days.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Valentin Petzel]

What browser are you using? Rejecting a page without SSL is somewhat stupid. 
For many webpages the only benefit of SSL is that you have a certificate that 
the content is correct. While certainly it would be possible to do some 
man-in-the-middle attack tricking you into having Lilypond into executing 
arbitrary scheme code it is still safe to say that most likely SSL does not 
matter for Lilypond. But SSL is not free, it requires a bit of computation 
power. Google even once redirectes https to http because the load was too high. 
So if any webpage uses SSL the internet would suddenly require noticably more 
power.

Valentin

02.11.2021 21:08:57 Kevin Cole :

> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:55 PM Hans Aikema  wrote:
> 
> Refering to the search box that IS already using https when you opted to 
> browse the website using https?
> I consider it perfectly fine that the website offers an http search option 
> when browsing the site with http, considering that it doesn't concern any 
> privacy sensitive information.
> You should teach manners to your webbrowser.
> 
> lilypond.org is the only site I've encountered that appears to have
> this problem. Once in a while for other sites I encounter an expired
> certificate, but that problem usually goes away in a day or two after
> they get around to renewing their certificate(s). With lilypond.org,
> it seems that it's always a crap shoot as to whether or not I'll get
> the complaint from the browser. Since the problem seemed unique to
> lilypond.org, I didn't consider it to be a browser problem.  (Maybe
> it's simply that the vast cache of Google, Duck-Duck-Go, et al, is
> constantly offering up the "http" version as a starting point or some
> such, as the first match...)

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Omid Mo'menzadeh]

I'm not sure about the current state, but Azure and AWS didn't use to block
IPs from Iran. We had the same problem when Gitlab migrated from Azure to
GCP.

Note that non of them can do business with us, but serving a hosted website
to us is not doing business. GCP seems to be the only one doing this.

But I will make sure about this and report back.

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 1:23 PM Kevin Barry  wrote:

> > Thank for the notice, and sorry for the mess. I didn't realize GCP
> > doesn't serve to Iran. Do the other large US providers (Azure, AWS)
> > serve to Iran, or are they also blocked?
>
> I believe they will also be blocked. There is a list of (six I think)
> countries that businesses based in the US are obliged to block access
> from.
>

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Kevin Barry]

> Thank for the notice, and sorry for the mess. I didn't realize GCP
> doesn't serve to Iran. Do the other large US providers (Azure, AWS)
> serve to Iran, or are they also blocked?

I believe they will also be blocked. There is a list of (six I think)
countries that businesses based in the US are obliged to block access
from.

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 8:07 PM David Kastrup  wrote:
>
> "Omid Mo'menzadeh"  writes:
>
> > Of course I do. What I wanted to make sure was that the maintainers and the
> > community know this, and are OK with that. LilyPond is a GNU project after
> > all, and I don't think this is a GNU policy at all, since no other GNU
> > project that I know of does this.
>
> Web hosting is done by Han-Wen (I think) who works at Google.  So that
> was sort of a natural choice to make when we outgrew the previous
> hosting.  So it's likely to be sort of a headache to move.

Thank for the notice, and sorry for the mess. I didn't realize GCP
doesn't serve to Iran. Do the other large US providers (Azure, AWS)
serve to Iran, or are they also blocked?

-- 
Han-Wen Nienhuys - hanw...@gmail.com - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Omid Mo'menzadeh]

Thanks for the clarification. I personally think this is something we might
want to consider if we have a major update or migration on the website in
the future.

Thanks,
Omid Momenzadeh

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 10:37 PM David Kastrup  wrote:

> "Omid Mo'menzadeh"  writes:
>
> > Of course I do. What I wanted to make sure was that the maintainers and
> the
> > community know this, and are OK with that. LilyPond is a GNU project
> after
> > all, and I don't think this is a GNU policy at all, since no other GNU
> > project that I know of does this.
>
> Web hosting is done by Han-Wen (I think) who works at Google.  So that
> was sort of a natural choice to make when we outgrew the previous
> hosting.  So it's likely to be sort of a headache to move.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Hans Aikema]

> On 2 Nov 2021, at 21:08, Kevin Cole  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:55 PM Hans Aikema  wrote:
> 
>> Refering to the search box that IS already using https when you opted to 
>> browse the website using https?
>> I consider it perfectly fine that the website offers an http search option 
>> when browsing the site with http, considering that it doesn't concern any 
>> privacy sensitive information.
>> You should teach manners to your webbrowser.
> 
> lilypond.org is the only site I've encountered that appears to have
> this problem. Once in a while for other sites I encounter an expired
> certificate, but that problem usually goes away in a day or two after
> they get around to renewing their certificate(s). With lilypond.org,
> it seems that it's always a crap shoot as to whether or not I'll get
> the complaint from the browser. Since the problem seemed unique to
> lilypond.org, I didn't consider it to be a browser problem.  (Maybe
> it's simply that the vast cache of Google, Duck-Duck-Go, et al, is
> constantly offering up the "http" version as a starting point or some
> such, as the first match…)

Many sites nowadays are configured with a ‘redirect to https’ at the http 
endpoint when they have an https version. That’s likely why you rarely 
encounter them. Some (most?) browsers nowadays can also be told to always try 
connect with https first and only fall back (after confirmation by the user) to 
http when that fails or switch to https when availabe (see e.g. 
https://beebom.com/how-enable-https-only-mode-chrome-firefox-edge-safari/ for 
how tofor the most popular browsers out there on internet).

Looking at my google results for a lilypond related search it appears that 
google mixes http and https URLs in the results, with slightly more (6 out of 
10) of the first page for "aligning lyrics lilypond 2.22” linking to the https 
urls of lilypond.org

An advantage I see for continuing to offer both is that you can continue to 
serve old clients, while at the same time ensuring that anyone who visits you 
on https is guaranteed to have trustworthy encryption.
Not all old clients can use the modern recommended TLS encryption settings, so 
by allowing them to fall back to ‘insecure http’ rather than allowing them to 
have a false sense of security by using ‘insecure TLS configuration’ or even 
worse ‘broken SSL’, you allow them continued use of your information while at 
the same time making it obvious that the connection to the information is not 
to be considered confidential/secure.
 

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Kevin Cole]

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:55 PM Hans Aikema  wrote:

> Refering to the search box that IS already using https when you opted to 
> browse the website using https?
> I consider it perfectly fine that the website offers an http search option 
> when browsing the site with http, considering that it doesn't concern any 
> privacy sensitive information.
> You should teach manners to your webbrowser.

lilypond.org is the only site I've encountered that appears to have
this problem. Once in a while for other sites I encounter an expired
certificate, but that problem usually goes away in a day or two after
they get around to renewing their certificate(s). With lilypond.org,
it seems that it's always a crap shoot as to whether or not I'll get
the complaint from the browser. Since the problem seemed unique to
lilypond.org, I didn't consider it to be a browser problem.  (Maybe
it's simply that the vast cache of Google, Duck-Duck-Go, et al, is
constantly offering up the "http" version as a starting point or some
such, as the first match...)

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Hans Aikema]

> On 2 Nov 2021, at 20:48, Kevin Cole  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:33 PM Hans Aikema  wrote:
>> 
>> On 2 Nov 2021, at 20:27, Kenneth Wolcott  wrote:
>> 
>> On a side note, I was wondering why the Lilypond web site not secure,
>> ie: https rather than http...not that it matters that the content on
>> the web site and the interaction with it is of a sensitive nature, but
>> still...
>> 
>> Ken Wolcott
>> 
>> It is dual-hosted, so you CAN access it perfectly fine on https, but it's 
>> not enforced
>> 
>> https://lilypond.org/ works just as fine as http://lilypond.org
> 
> Seems like (he says in ignorance) it would be a quick fix to make sure
> all the searches from the left-hand sidebar put the "s" in "https" so
> that it's not constantly warning that the submitted search is insecure
> and having the browser ask if I *really* want to go ahead with
> following the link...

Refering to the search box that IS already using https when you opted to browse 
the website using https?
I consider it perfectly fine that the website offers an http search option when 
browsing the site with http, considering that it doesn't concern any privacy 
sensitive information. 
You should teach manners to your webbrowser.

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Kevin Cole]

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:33 PM Hans Aikema  wrote:
>
> On 2 Nov 2021, at 20:27, Kenneth Wolcott  wrote:
>
> On a side note, I was wondering why the Lilypond web site not secure,
> ie: https rather than http...not that it matters that the content on
> the web site and the interaction with it is of a sensitive nature, but
> still...
>
> Ken Wolcott
>
> It is dual-hosted, so you CAN access it perfectly fine on https, but it's not 
> enforced
>
> https://lilypond.org/ works just as fine as http://lilypond.org

Seems like (he says in ignorance) it would be a quick fix to make sure
all the searches from the left-hand sidebar put the "s" in "https" so
that it's not constantly warning that the submitted search is insecure
and having the browser ask if I *really* want to go ahead with
following the link...

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Kenneth Wolcott]

Ah! Cool.

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 12:32 PM Hans Aikema  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 2 Nov 2021, at 20:27, Kenneth Wolcott  wrote:
>
> On a side note, I was wondering why the Lilypond web site not secure,
> ie: https rather than http...not that it matters that the content on
> the web site and the interaction with it is of a sensitive nature, but
> still...
>
> Ken Wolcott
>
> It is dual-hosted, so you CAN access it perfectly fine on https, but it's not 
> enforced
>
> https://lilypond.org/ works just as fine as http://lilypond.org
>

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Hans Aikema]

> On 2 Nov 2021, at 20:27, Kenneth Wolcott  wrote:
> 
> On a side note, I was wondering why the Lilypond web site not secure,
> ie: https rather than http...not that it matters that the content on
> the web site and the interaction with it is of a sensitive nature, but
> still...
> 
> Ken Wolcott
It is dual-hosted, so you CAN access it perfectly fine on https, but it's not 
enforced

https://lilypond.org/ works just as fine as http://lilypond.org

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Kenneth Wolcott]

On a side note, I was wondering why the Lilypond web site not secure,
ie: https rather than http...not that it matters that the content on
the web site and the interaction with it is of a sensitive nature, but
still...

Ken Wolcott

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 12:07 PM David Kastrup  wrote:
>
> "Omid Mo'menzadeh"  writes:
>
> > Of course I do. What I wanted to make sure was that the maintainers and the
> > community know this, and are OK with that. LilyPond is a GNU project after
> > all, and I don't think this is a GNU policy at all, since no other GNU
> > project that I know of does this.
>
> Web hosting is done by Han-Wen (I think) who works at Google.  So that
> was sort of a natural choice to make when we outgrew the previous
> hosting.  So it's likely to be sort of a headache to move.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[David Kastrup]

"Omid Mo'menzadeh"  writes:

> Of course I do. What I wanted to make sure was that the maintainers and the
> community know this, and are OK with that. LilyPond is a GNU project after
> all, and I don't think this is a GNU policy at all, since no other GNU
> project that I know of does this.

Web hosting is done by Han-Wen (I think) who works at Google.  So that
was sort of a natural choice to make when we outgrew the previous
hosting.  So it's likely to be sort of a headache to move.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Omid Mo'menzadeh]

Of course I do. What I wanted to make sure was that the maintainers and the
community know this, and are OK with that. LilyPond is a GNU project after
all, and I don't think this is a GNU policy at all, since no other GNU
project that I know of does this.

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 7:01 PM Remy CLAVERIE 
wrote:

> Omid,
>
> You should consider using a VPN, I think.
>
> Good luck
>
> Rémy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Message du 02/11/21 16:14
> > De : "Omid Mo'menzadeh" 
> > A : "Phil Holmes" 
> > Copie à : "lilypond-user" 
> > Objet : Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries
> >
> >
> Well, that's good news, since it would make fixing the problem a lot
> easier. Here is my output from "ping lilypond.org", which definitely is
> trying to get something from Google:
> > PING lilypond.org (35.206.114.173) 56(84) bytes of data.
> > 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
> icmp_seq=1 ttl=99 time=312 ms
> > 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
> icmp_seq=2 ttl=96 time=279 ms
> > 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
> icmp_seq=3 ttl=99 time=339 ms
> > 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
> icmp_seq=4 ttl=96 time=310 ms
> > 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
> icmp_seq=5 ttl=96 time=311 ms
> >
>
> >
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 5:13 PM Phil Holmes  wrote:
> >
>
>> On 02/11/2021 12:53, Kevin Cole wrote:
>> >
>>
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:42 AM Omid Mo'menzadeh 
>> wrote:
>> >
>>
>>> Hello all.
>>> >
>>> I'm not sure if this is the right list to post this, but I'll give it a
>>> shot here, and see where I should report this.
>>> The problem seems to be the website's hosting, which appears to be
>>> provided by Google, which blocks access from certain countries in
>>> accordance with US law (with the error message "403. That’s an error. Your
>>> client does not have permission to get URL / from this server. That’s all
>>> we know."). This would not surprise me if LilyPond was not a GNU project,
>>> but it's a bit off at the moment, to say the least.
>>> What I would want to know if this is something the team cares about, and
>>> where I should discuss this.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Omid Momenzadeh
>>> >
>>>
>> I could  be mistaken -- I often am -- but...
>>
>> I suspect it's merely that the site is designed to construct search
>> queries using Google as the default search engine -- along with Google's
>> option to limit the search to a particular site. This saves the maintainers
>> from having to install a search engine and keep it updated.
>> >
>> >
>> (One other negative consequence of this setup is that it randomly chooses
>> the version of documentation -- e.g. If I am on a .../doc/v2.20/... page
>> and search for a term, it will happily offer up a match from
>> .../doc/v2.22/..., .../doc/2.18/... or whatever else it finds.)
>>
>> >
>>
>> > No - it's hosted on Google currently.
>>
>> > --
>>
>> > Phil Holmes
>> >
>>
>

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Remy CLAVERIE]

Omid,

You should consider using a VPN, I think.

Good luck

Rémy

 

 

 

 

> Message du 02/11/21 16:14
> De : "Omid Mo'menzadeh" 
> A : "Phil Holmes" 
> Copie à : "lilypond-user" 

> Objet : Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries
> 
>

Well, that's good news, since it would make fixing the problem a lot easier. 
Here is my output from "ping lilypond.org", which definitely is trying to get 
something from Google:
> PING lilypond.org (35.206.114.173) 56(84) bytes of data. 
> 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173): 
> icmp_seq=1 ttl=99 time=312 ms 
> 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173): 
> icmp_seq=2 ttl=96 time=279 ms 
> 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173): 
> icmp_seq=3 ttl=99 time=339 ms 
> 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173): 
> icmp_seq=4 ttl=96 time=310 ms 
> 64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173): 
> icmp_seq=5 ttl=96 time=311 ms
> 


>

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 5:13 PM Phil Holmes  wrote:
>


On 02/11/2021 12:53, Kevin Cole wrote:
>




>


>

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:42 AM Omid Mo'menzadeh  wrote:
>


Hello all.
>
I'm not sure if this is the right list to post this, but I'll give it a shot 
here, and see where I should report this.
The problem seems to be the website's hosting, which appears to be provided by 
Google, which blocks access from certain countries in accordance with US law 
(with the error message "403. That’s an error. Your client does not have 
permission to get URL / from this server. That’s all we know."). This would not 
surprise me if LilyPond was not a GNU project, but it's a bit off at the 
moment, to say the least.
What I would want to know if this is something the team cares about, and where 
I should discuss this.
Thanks,
Omid Momenzadeh
>



I could  be mistaken -- I often am -- but...


I suspect it's merely that the site is designed to construct search queries 
using Google as the default search engine -- along with Google's option to 
limit the search to a particular site. This saves the maintainers from having 
to install a search engine and keep it updated.
> 
>
(One other negative consequence of this setup is that it randomly chooses the 
version of documentation -- e.g. If I am on a .../doc/v2.20/... page and search 
for a term, it will happily offer up a match from .../doc/v2.22/..., 
.../doc/2.18/... or whatever else it finds.)

>


> No - it's hosted on Google currently.

> --

> Phil Holmes
>

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Omid Mo'menzadeh]

Well, that's good news, since it would make fixing the problem a lot
easier. Here is my output from "ping lilypond.org", which definitely is
trying to get something from Google:
PING lilypond.org (35.206.114.173) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
icmp_seq=1 ttl=99 time=312 ms
64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
icmp_seq=2 ttl=96 time=279 ms
64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
icmp_seq=3 ttl=99 time=339 ms
64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
icmp_seq=4 ttl=96 time=310 ms
64 bytes from 173.114.206.35.bc.googleusercontent.com (35.206.114.173):
icmp_seq=5 ttl=96 time=311 ms

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 5:13 PM Phil Holmes  wrote:

> On 02/11/2021 12:53, Kevin Cole wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:42 AM Omid Mo'menzadeh 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello all.
>> I'm not sure if this is the right list to post this, but I'll give it a
>> shot here, and see where I should report this.
>> The problem seems to be the website's hosting, which appears to be
>> provided by Google, which blocks access from certain countries in
>> accordance with US law (with the error message "403. That’s an error. Your
>> client does not have permission to get URL / from this server. That’s all
>> we know."). This would not surprise me if LilyPond was not a GNU project,
>> but it's a bit off at the moment, to say the least.
>> What I would want to know if this is something the team cares about, and
>> where I should discuss this.
>> Thanks,
>> Omid Momenzadeh
>>
> I could  be mistaken -- I often am -- but...
>
> I suspect it's merely that the site is designed to construct search
> queries using Google as the default search engine -- along with Google's
> option to limit the search to a particular site. This saves the maintainers
> from having to install a search engine and keep it updated.
>
> (One other negative consequence of this setup is that it randomly chooses
> the version of documentation -- e.g. If I am on a .../doc/v2.20/... page
> and search for a term, it will happily offer up a match from
> .../doc/v2.22/..., .../doc/2.18/... or whatever else it finds.)
>
> No - it's hosted on Google currently.
>
> --
>
> Phil Holmes
>

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Omid Mo'menzadeh]

Yes. This is Google blocking the IP, not a firewall on the way.

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:00 PM Jun Tamura  wrote:

>
>
> 2021/11/02 22:59、Jun Tamura のメール:
>
>
>
> 2021/11/02 22:40、Phil Holmes のメール:
>
> On 02/11/2021 12:53, Kevin Cole wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:42 AM Omid Mo'menzadeh 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello all.
>> I'm not sure if this is the right list to post this, but I'll give it a
>> shot here, and see where I should report this.
>> The problem seems to be the website's hosting, which appears to be
>> provided by Google, which blocks access from certain countries in
>> accordance with US law (with the error message "403. That’s an error. Your
>> client does not have permission to get URL / from this server. That’s all
>> we know."). This would not surprise me if LilyPond was not a GNU project,
>> but it's a bit off at the moment, to say the least.
>> What I would want to know if this is something the team cares about, and
>> where I should discuss this.
>> Thanks,
>> Omid Momenzadeh
>>
> I could  be mistaken -- I often am -- but...
>
> I suspect it's merely that the site is designed to construct search
> queries using Google as the default search engine -- along with Google's
> option to limit the search to a particular site. This saves the maintainers
> from having to install a search engine and keep it updated.
>
> (One other negative consequence of this setup is that it randomly chooses
> the version of documentation -- e.g. If I am on a .../doc/v2.20/... page
> and search for a term, it will happily offer up a match from
> .../doc/v2.22/..., .../doc/2.18/... or whatever else it finds.)
>
> No - it's hosted on Google currently.
>
> --
>
> Phil Holmes
>
> If it’s hosted on Google, the same thing must be happening in mainland
> China as well. My last trip to China was in 2017 and, at that time, all the
> connection to google.com domain and other services by the Alphabet group,
> such as YouTube, was blocked by the “great wall” set up by the Chinese
> government.
>
> Jun Tamura
> https://imslp.org/wiki/User:Jun_T
>
>
> Oops! I’m very sorry for my misunderstanding. Error 403 is not the one
> caused by a firewall.
>
> Jun
>

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Jun Tamura]

> 2021/11/02 22:40、Phil Holmes のメール:
> 
> On 02/11/2021 12:53, Kevin Cole wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:42 AM Omid Mo'menzadeh > > wrote:
>> Hello all.
>> I'm not sure if this is the right list to post this, but I'll give it a shot 
>> here, and see where I should report this.
>> The problem seems to be the website's hosting, which appears to be provided 
>> by Google, which blocks access from certain countries in accordance with US 
>> law (with the error message "403. That’s an error. Your client does not have 
>> permission to get URL / from this server. That’s all we know."). This would 
>> not surprise me if LilyPond was not a GNU project, but it's a bit off at the 
>> moment, to say the least.
>> What I would want to know if this is something the team cares about, and 
>> where I should discuss this.
>> Thanks,
>> Omid Momenzadeh
>> I could  be mistaken -- I often am -- but...
>> 
>> I suspect it's merely that the site is designed to construct search queries 
>> using Google as the default search engine -- along with Google's option to 
>> limit the search to a particular site. This saves the maintainers from 
>> having to install a search engine and keep it updated.
>> 
>> (One other negative consequence of this setup is that it randomly chooses 
>> the version of documentation -- e.g. If I am on a .../doc/v2.20/... page and 
>> search for a term, it will happily offer up a match from .../doc/v2.22/..., 
>> .../doc/2.18/... or whatever else it finds.)
>> 
> No - it's hosted on Google currently.
> 
> --
> 
> Phil Holmes
> 
If it’s hosted on Google, the same thing must be happening in mainland China as 
well. My last trip to China was in 2017 and, at that time, all the connection 
to google.com  domain and other services by the Alphabet 
group, such as YouTube, was blocked by the “great wall” set up by the Chinese 
government.

Jun Tamura
https://imslp.org/wiki/User:Jun_T 

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Jun Tamura]

> 2021/11/02 22:59、Jun Tamura のメール:
> 
> 
> 
>> 2021/11/02 22:40、Phil Holmes > >のメール:
>> 
>> On 02/11/2021 12:53, Kevin Cole wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:42 AM Omid Mo'menzadeh >> > wrote:
>>> Hello all.
>>> I'm not sure if this is the right list to post this, but I'll give it a 
>>> shot here, and see where I should report this.
>>> The problem seems to be the website's hosting, which appears to be provided 
>>> by Google, which blocks access from certain countries in accordance with US 
>>> law (with the error message "403. That’s an error. Your client does not 
>>> have permission to get URL / from this server. That’s all we know."). This 
>>> would not surprise me if LilyPond was not a GNU project, but it's a bit off 
>>> at the moment, to say the least.
>>> What I would want to know if this is something the team cares about, and 
>>> where I should discuss this.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Omid Momenzadeh
>>> I could  be mistaken -- I often am -- but...
>>> 
>>> I suspect it's merely that the site is designed to construct search queries 
>>> using Google as the default search engine -- along with Google's option to 
>>> limit the search to a particular site. This saves the maintainers from 
>>> having to install a search engine and keep it updated.
>>> 
>>> (One other negative consequence of this setup is that it randomly chooses 
>>> the version of documentation -- e.g. If I am on a .../doc/v2.20/... page 
>>> and search for a term, it will happily offer up a match from 
>>> .../doc/v2.22/..., .../doc/2.18/... or whatever else it finds.)
>>> 
>> No - it's hosted on Google currently.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Phil Holmes
>> 
> If it’s hosted on Google, the same thing must be happening in mainland China 
> as well. My last trip to China was in 2017 and, at that time, all the 
> connection to google.com  domain and other services by 
> the Alphabet group, such as YouTube, was blocked by the “great wall” set up 
> by the Chinese government.
> 
> Jun Tamura
> https://imslp.org/wiki/User:Jun_T 
Oops! I’m very sorry for my misunderstanding. Error 403 is not the one caused 
by a firewall.

Jun

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Phil Holmes]

On 02/11/2021 12:53, Kevin Cole wrote:



On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:42 AM Omid Mo'menzadeh 
 wrote:


Hello all.
I'm not sure if this is the right list to post this, but I'll give
it a shot here, and see where I should report this.
The problem seems to be the website's hosting, which appears to be
provided by Google, which blocks access from certain countries in
accordance with US law (with the error message "403. That’s an
error. Your client does not have permission to get URL / from this
server. That’s all we know."). This would not surprise me if
LilyPond was not a GNU project, but it's a bit off at the moment,
to say the least.
What I would want to know if this is something the team cares
about, and where I should discuss this.
Thanks,
Omid Momenzadeh

I could  be mistaken -- I often am -- but...

I suspect it's merely that the site is designed to construct search 
queries using Google as the default search engine -- along with 
Google's option to limit the search to a particular site. This saves 
the maintainers from having to install a search engine and keep it 
updated.


(One other negative consequence of this setup is that it randomly 
chooses the version of documentation -- e.g. If I am on a 
.../doc/v2.20/... page and search for a term, it will happily offer up 
a match from .../doc/v2.22/..., .../doc/2.18/... or whatever else it 
finds.)



No - it's hosted on Google currently.

--

Phil Holmes

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Kevin Cole]

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 9:16 AM Omid Mo'menzadeh 
wrote:

> This is what I see when I open the website with an IP from Iran. We have
> the same problem with other websites hosted on GCE and similar products.
> Google's search engine, Gmail, etc. are fine.
>

Ouch. My mistake. And, like you, I'm surprised.

Re: LilyPond website is not available in some countries

[Kevin Cole]

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 6:42 AM Omid Mo'menzadeh 
wrote:

> Hello all.
> I'm not sure if this is the right list to post this, but I'll give it a
> shot here, and see where I should report this.
> The problem seems to be the website's hosting, which appears to be
> provided by Google, which blocks access from certain countries in
> accordance with US law (with the error message "403. That’s an error. Your
> client does not have permission to get URL / from this server. That’s all
> we know."). This would not surprise me if LilyPond was not a GNU project,
> but it's a bit off at the moment, to say the least.
> What I would want to know if this is something the team cares about, and
> where I should discuss this.
> Thanks,
> Omid Momenzadeh
>
I could  be mistaken -- I often am -- but...

I suspect it's merely that the site is designed to construct search queries
using Google as the default search engine -- along with Google's option to
limit the search to a particular site. This saves the maintainers from
having to install a search engine and keep it updated.

(One other negative consequence of this setup is that it randomly chooses
the version of documentation -- e.g. If I am on a .../doc/v2.20/... page
and search for a term, it will happily offer up a match from
.../doc/v2.22/..., .../doc/2.18/... or whatever else it finds.)

Re: LilyPond website and HTTPS support

[Karlin High]

On 1/2/2019 5:35 PM, Tyler Mitchell wrote:

Are there any plans to make lilypond.org accessible via HTTPS?

now that Let's Encrypt is around


I expect that is a question for Han-Wen Nienhuys, who seems to control 
the lilypond.org website hosting.




Included him in CC.
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Missouri, USA

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Re: Lilypond website down?

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 11:28 AM David Kastrup  wrote:
>
> Han-Wen Nienhuys  writes:
>
> > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Simon Albrecht  
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On 16.08.2018 23:37, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> >> > Well, currently, it's coming out of the $300 new user credit that
> >> > Google offers to new cloud users. $300 is enough to keep it running
> >> > for a year or two.
> >>
> >> This sounds slightly dangerous and like we should search for a new
> >> solution rather sooner than later, doesn’t it?
> >
> > When the free credit runs out, costs will be paid from my credit card.
>
> What's the bus factor on the current solution?  Not regarding the money
> but the actions to be taken?

both Jan & I have to come under the bus at the same time for this
break irretrievably. (We still control the DNS entry)

-- 
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Re: Lilypond website down?

[David Kastrup]

Han-Wen Nienhuys  writes:

> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Simon Albrecht  wrote:
>>
>> On 16.08.2018 23:37, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>> > Well, currently, it's coming out of the $300 new user credit that
>> > Google offers to new cloud users. $300 is enough to keep it running
>> > for a year or two.
>>
>> This sounds slightly dangerous and like we should search for a new
>> solution rather sooner than later, doesn’t it?
>
> When the free credit runs out, costs will be paid from my credit card.

What's the bus factor on the current solution?  Not regarding the money
but the actions to be taken?

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Re: Lilypond website down?

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:24 PM Simon Albrecht  wrote:
>
> On 16.08.2018 23:37, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> > Well, currently, it's coming out of the $300 new user credit that
> > Google offers to new cloud users. $300 is enough to keep it running
> > for a year or two.
>
> This sounds slightly dangerous and like we should search for a new
> solution rather sooner than later, doesn’t it?

When the free credit runs out, costs will be paid from my credit card.

-- 
Han-Wen Nienhuys - hanw...@gmail.com - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

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Re: Lilypond website down?

[Simon Albrecht]

On 16.08.2018 23:37, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
Well, currently, it's coming out of the $300 new user credit that 
Google offers to new cloud users. $300 is enough to keep it running 
for a year or two.


This sounds slightly dangerous and like we should search for a new 
solution rather sooner than later, doesn’t it?


Best, Simon




On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 9:20 PM Ralph Palmer 
mailto:palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com>> wrote:




On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 3:14 PM Simon Albrecht
mailto:simon.albre...@mail.de>> wrote:

So you provide the funding? If so, thanks a lot!

Best, Simon

Please accept my thanks, as well.

Ralph


> On 10.08.2018 - 13:10, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>
>
> Looks like a payment problem. I've added my creditcard, and
restarted the server.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:39 PM Phil Holmes
mailto:m...@philholmes.net>> wrote:
>>
>> It's hosted by Google these days, so I assume they have a
means of monitoring and fixing this...
>>
>>
>> --
>> Phil Holmes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>>
>> From: Saul Tobin
>>
>> To: Lilypond-User Mailing List
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 6:37 PM
>>
>> Subject: Lilypond website down?
>>
>>
>> Looks like Lilypond.org has been down since yesterday.
>>
>> ___
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org 
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Han-Wen Nienhuys - hanw...@gmail.com
 - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

>

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-- 
Ralph Palmer

Brattleboro, VT
USA
palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com 



--
Han-Wen Nienhuys - hanw...@gmail.com  - 
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen 



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Re: Re: Lilypond website down?

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Well, currently, it's coming out of the $300 new user credit that Google
offers to new cloud users. $300 is enough to keep it runnign for a year or
two.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 9:20 PM Ralph Palmer 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 3:14 PM Simon Albrecht 
> wrote:
>
>> So you provide the funding? If so, thanks a lot!
>>
>> Best, Simon
>>
>
> Please accept my thanks, as well.
>
> Ralph
>
>
>>
>> > On 10.08.2018 - 13:10, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Looks like a payment problem. I've added my creditcard, and restarted
>> the server.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:39 PM Phil Holmes 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It's hosted by Google these days, so I assume they have a means of
>> monitoring and fixing this...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Phil Holmes
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> - Original Message -
>> >>
>> >> From: Saul Tobin
>> >>
>> >> To: Lilypond-User Mailing List
>> >>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 6:37 PM
>> >>
>> >> Subject: Lilypond website down?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Looks like Lilypond.org has been down since yesterday.
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> lilypond-user mailing list
>> >> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>> >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> Han-Wen Nienhuys - hanw...@gmail.com - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen
>> >
>>
>> ___
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>>
>
>
> --
> Ralph Palmer
> Brattleboro, VT
> USA
> palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com
>


-- 
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Re: Re: Lilypond website down?

[Ralph Palmer]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 3:14 PM Simon Albrecht 
wrote:

> So you provide the funding? If so, thanks a lot!
>
> Best, Simon
>

Please accept my thanks, as well.

Ralph


>
> > On 10.08.2018 - 13:10, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> >
> >
> > Looks like a payment problem. I've added my creditcard, and restarted
> the server.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:39 PM Phil Holmes  wrote:
> >>
> >> It's hosted by Google these days, so I assume they have a means of
> monitoring and fixing this...
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Phil Holmes
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >>
> >> From: Saul Tobin
> >>
> >> To: Lilypond-User Mailing List
> >>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 6:37 PM
> >>
> >> Subject: Lilypond website down?
> >>
> >>
> >> Looks like Lilypond.org has been down since yesterday.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> lilypond-user mailing list
> >> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Han-Wen Nienhuys - hanw...@gmail.com - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen
> >
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>


-- 
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Brattleboro, VT
USA
palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com
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Re: Re: Lilypond website down?

[Simon Albrecht]

So you provide the funding? If so, thanks a lot!

Best, Simon

> On 10.08.2018 - 13:10, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>
>
> Looks like a payment problem. I've added my creditcard, and restarted the 
> server.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:39 PM Phil Holmes  wrote:
>> 
>> It's hosted by Google these days, so I assume they have a means of 
>> monitoring and fixing this...
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Phil Holmes
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> - Original Message - 
>> 
>> From: Saul Tobin 
>> 
>> To: Lilypond-User Mailing List 
>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 6:37 PM
>> 
>> Subject: Lilypond website down?
>> 
>> 
>> Looks like Lilypond.org has been down since yesterday.
>> 
>> ___
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Han-Wen Nienhuys - hanw...@gmail.com - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen
>

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Re: Lilypond website down?

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Looks like a payment problem. I've added my creditcard, and restarted the
server.

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:39 PM Phil Holmes  wrote:

> It's hosted by Google these days, so I assume they have a means of
> monitoring and fixing this...
>
> --
> Phil Holmes
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Saul Tobin 
> *To:* Lilypond-User Mailing List 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2018 6:37 PM
> *Subject:* Lilypond website down?
>
> Looks like Lilypond.org has been down since yesterday.
>
> --
>
> ___
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> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>

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Re: Lilypond website down?

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Phil,

Google? Isn't that a commercial service? Who pays for it?

Andrew


On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 at 05:40, Phil Holmes  wrote:

> It's hosted by Google these days, so I assume they have a means of
> monitoring and fixing this...
>
>
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Re: Lilypond website down?

[Karlin High]

On 8/8/2018 2:39 PM, Phil Holmes wrote:
It's hosted by Google these days, so I assume they have a means of 
monitoring and fixing this...


--
Phil Holmes

- Original Message -
*From:* Saul Tobin 
*To:* Lilypond-User Mailing List 
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2018 6:37 PM
*Subject:* Lilypond website down?

Looks like Lilypond.org has been down since yesterday.


In the meantime...



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Missouri, USA

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Re: Lilypond website down?

[Phil Holmes]

It's hosted by Google these days, so I assume they have a means of monitoring 
and fixing this...

--
Phil Holmes


  - Original Message - 
  From: Saul Tobin 
  To: Lilypond-User Mailing List 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 6:37 PM
  Subject: Lilypond website down?


  Looks like Lilypond.org has been down since yesterday.


--


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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[Federico Bruni]

Il 09/dic/2013 09:22 "Janek Warchoł"  ha scritto:
>
> 2013/12/9 Carl Peterson :
> > 2013/12/6 David Kastrup :
> > > A complete color _scheme_ might be distracting, but it may make sense
to
> > > have a title or side bar or other obvious always on-screen element
> > > color-coded.
> >
> > Okay, so I have a patch set ready to go with this. The only differences
are
> > that the Usage book is yellow, the Internals book is purple, and I made
the
> > Contributor's Guide black.
> >
> > Where should I submit the patches for review? I've tried reading the
> > Contributor's Guide and I come up with about 3 or 4 different methods,
and
> > this sort of work is kind of in a no-man's land anyway.
>
> Please upload it using git cl tool, as described in
>
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/contributor/commits-and-patches#uploading-a-patch-for-review
> After doing so, there should be a new issue in the tracker
> (http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list) about your patch, and
> inside that issue there should be a link to
> http://codereview.appspot.com/
>

I've already created the issue in the tracker.
Carl, put the issue number in your commit message and IIRC git-cl will be
able to understand
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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/9 Carl Peterson :
> 2013/12/6 David Kastrup :
> > A complete color _scheme_ might be distracting, but it may make sense to
> > have a title or side bar or other obvious always on-screen element
> > color-coded.
>
> Okay, so I have a patch set ready to go with this. The only differences are
> that the Usage book is yellow, the Internals book is purple, and I made the
> Contributor's Guide black.
>
> Where should I submit the patches for review? I've tried reading the
> Contributor's Guide and I come up with about 3 or 4 different methods, and
> this sort of work is kind of in a no-man's land anyway.

Please upload it using git cl tool, as described in
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/contributor/commits-and-patches#uploading-a-patch-for-review
After doing so, there should be a new issue in the tracker
(http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list) about your patch, and
inside that issue there should be a link to
http://codereview.appspot.com/

If you have problems, let us know.

thanks!
Janek

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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[David Kastrup]

Carl Peterson  writes:

> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
>>
>> I have something in development for #2 on Federico's list. I've parsed
>> through enough of the texi2html script that I was able to insert CSS
>> classes into the  tag that will allow me to color code each manual.
>>
>
> One thing that is very strange that I've noticed in working on this is that
> if I modify Documentation/lilypond-texi2html.init (which impacts virtually
> every part of the website) and build the documentation, nothing happens,
> but if I change one of the stylesheets (which is a superficial thing that
> does not, to my knowledge, impact the building of any other file), the
> entire documentation gets rebuilt. This is backwards. When I've been
> working on the lilypond-texi2html.init file, I've been having to go in and
> touch one of the manual pages (usually changes.tely, since it's probably
> the smallest and easiest to build) to get it to recompile that manual so I
> can see what my changes did.

If you feel comfortable figuring out what change would be required to
the makefiles or makefile inclusion files, you can propose a patch after
checking it does what you think it does.

Other than that, report a bug.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[Carl Peterson]

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Janek Warchoł wrote:

> 2013/12/6 David Kastrup :
> > Janek Warchoł  writes:
> >> A suggestion from my colleague: for a long time he kept confusing LM
> >> and NR, and he said that it would be nice if (for example) they had
> >> different color schemes so that one will know where to look at things
> >> ("hmm, i remember seeing it in the blue manual...").
> >
> > Learning - Green book
> > Using - White book
> > Notation - Blue book
> > Extending - Red book
> > Internals - Black book
> >
> > A complete color _scheme_ might be distracting, but it may make sense to
> > have a title or side bar or other obvious always on-screen element
> > color-coded.
>
> +1
>

Okay, so I have a patch set ready to go with this. The only differences are
that the Usage book is yellow, the Internals book is purple, and I made the
Contributor's Guide black.

Where should I submit the patches for review? I've tried reading the
Contributor's Guide and I come up with about 3 or 4 different methods, and
this sort of work is kind of in a no-man's land anyway.

Carl
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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Carl Peterson]

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
>
> I have something in development for #2 on Federico's list. I've parsed
> through enough of the texi2html script that I was able to insert CSS
> classes into the  tag that will allow me to color code each manual.
>

One thing that is very strange that I've noticed in working on this is that
if I modify Documentation/lilypond-texi2html.init (which impacts virtually
every part of the website) and build the documentation, nothing happens,
but if I change one of the stylesheets (which is a superficial thing that
does not, to my knowledge, impact the building of any other file), the
entire documentation gets rebuilt. This is backwards. When I've been
working on the lilypond-texi2html.init file, I've been having to go in and
touch one of the manual pages (usually changes.tely, since it's probably
the smallest and easiest to build) to get it to recompile that manual so I
can see what my changes did.

Carl
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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Carl Peterson]

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Urs Liska  wrote:

>  Am 08.12.2013 23:23, schrieb Federico Bruni:
>
>
> 2013/12/6 Federico Bruni 
>
>> These problems should be recorded in our tracker.
>>  So far I've seen 2 issues/feature requests:
>>
>>  1. improve SEO
>>  2. associate a different color scheme to each manual
>>
>>
>  I've added them:
> https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3714
>  https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3715
>
>
>
> Two more I noticed:
>
> 1)
> Distinguish between internal and external links?
> Should be fairly easy through CSS.
>
> 2)
> Actually you're not really seeing on which page you're on because the only
> reference is  a very small highlighting of the active menu item.
> I suggest to automatically place the @node name as a @heading on top of
> each website page.
>
> Urs
>

I have something in development for #2 on Federico's list. I've parsed
through enough of the texi2html script that I was able to insert CSS
classes into the  tag that will allow me to color code each manual.
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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Urs Liska]

Am 08.12.2013 23:23, schrieb Federico Bruni:


2013/12/6 Federico Bruni mailto:fedel...@gmail.com>>

These problems should be recorded in our tracker.
So far I've seen 2 issues/feature requests:

1. improve SEO
2. associate a different color scheme to each manual


I've added them:
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3714
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3715




Two more I noticed:

1)
Distinguish between internal and external links?
Should be fairly easy through CSS.

2)
Actually you're not really seeing on which page you're on because the 
only reference is  a very small highlighting of the active menu item.
I suggest to automatically place the @node name as a @heading on top of 
each website page.


Urs
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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Federico Bruni]

2013/12/6 Federico Bruni 

> These problems should be recorded in our tracker.
> So far I've seen 2 issues/feature requests:
>
> 1. improve SEO
> 2. associate a different color scheme to each manual
>
>
I've added them:
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3714
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3715


This is the list of issues when searching "website" in our tracker:
> http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list?can=2&q=website
> &colspec=ID+Type+Status+Stars+Owner+Patch+Needs+Summary&x=type&cells=tiles
>
> A label:Website may be useful?
>

No, label is not what we need. We might need a new Type.
Or we can keep using type:Documentation and add website: on the subject of
the issue.

Who wants to work on the website should find all the relevant issues with
these keywords:
website type:Documentation
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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[Carl Peterson]

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Phil Holmes  wrote:
>
>
>> My recommendations would be:
>> 1. Use a consistent URL for the latest stable version of LilyPond
>> documentation. That way web searches and other pages across the web link
>> to the latest version instead of ancient versions of the documentation.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, this is not possible.  The released stable version is
> currently 2.16.  However, it seems that a number of packagers are
> significantly behind this, using 2.14.  We can't link to a single stable
> version when there are 2 or more.
>
>
I think the suggestion is basically (until 2.18 is released) to use the
.htaccess file to redirect

http://lilypond.org/doc/stable --> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16
http://lilypond.org/doc/dev --> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17

When 2.18 is released, then the .htaccess file is modified to redirect

http://lilypond.org/doc/stable --> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16

Since this would be defined on the .htaccess, should be transparent to the
user and requires no duplication of files.

If you want to get really picky, there are still things I've seen using
2.12. I don't know that means we have keep track of what versions are
packaged with what. After all, if someone posts something here that doesn't
use 2.16 or 2.17, almost uniformly, it will be strongly suggested to that
individual that they ought to update to the latest.


>
>  2. On old or unstable documentation include a link to the equivalent
>> page in the stable version of the documentation.
>>
>
>
> Generally, this does work - replacing the version number in the URL brings
> up an older version of the manual.  If it is a 404, it must be that this
> page did not exist in the old version.
>
> If you're using an outdated version, it might make sense to download the
> appropriate PDF manuals.
>
>
I believe the suggestion is to go in the other direction---if the search
happens to drop you into an older version, provide a link to the most
recent.

The problem here, I think, is technical. Short of .htaccess or some other
server-side wrapper (similar to what many free web hosting providers do)
that will put a banner saying, "This is not the latest version. Click here
to go to...", because of the nature of updating the website, I don't know
how practical this is, to go through and recompile all the prior versions
of documentation to provide convenient links.
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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Bolton" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: LilyPond Website Work



On 12/7/2013 6:39 AM, Urs Liska wrote:


As can be seen here (one more time):

Am 07.12.2013 08:45, schrieb Janek Warchoł:

2013/12/7 David Bolton :

...

And by the way, why are you using documentation for versions 2.16 and
2.17 while the file is marked as 2.14? This looks like a bad idea.
best, Janek


It may also be a good idea to find a way to visually distinguish
between the stable and the development sections of website/manual?


We now do.  "LilyPond — Learning Manual v2.17.96 (development-branch). "


Maybe it is helpful to know that I got to the manual page from a web
search.

I realized that I was on the wrong version because of the URL, but there
is no easy way to get to the right version. For example, manually
changing the version number in the URL never seems to work (it gives 404
errors), and there are no links on the page to the equivalent
documentation for other versions.

My recommendations would be:
1. Use a consistent URL for the latest stable version of LilyPond
documentation. That way web searches and other pages across the web link
to the latest version instead of ancient versions of the documentation.


Unfortunately, this is not possible.  The released stable version is 
currently 2.16.  However, it seems that a number of packagers are 
significantly behind this, using 2.14.  We can't link to a single stable 
version when there are 2 or more.



2. On old or unstable documentation include a link to the equivalent
page in the stable version of the documentation.



Generally, this does work - replacing the version number in the URL brings 
up an older version of the manual.  If it is a 404, it must be that this 
page did not exist in the old version.


If you're using an outdated version, it might make sense to download the 
appropriate PDF manuals.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[David Bolton]

On 12/7/2013 9:48 AM, Janek Warchoł wrote:
> 2013/12/7 David Kastrup :
>>> It may also be a good idea to find a way to visually distinguish
>>> between the stable and the development sections of website/manual?
>> Stable: solid color in the color coded area.
>>
>> Development: diagonally striped or patterned in some other way.
>
> +1
>

For me, it had more to do with the difficult of moving to the place I
was suppose to be (and assuming that the current page was "good enough").

For comparison MuseScore only shows the latest version online (with
references inline to old versions when necessary).

Finale supports hacking of the URL. For example visit the following page
and then replace 2012 with 2011:
http://www.finalemusic.com/UserManuals/Finale2012Mac/Content/Finale/MMMTRDLG.htm

Microsoft Office shows version information in the search results:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/results.aspx?qu=insert+a+picture&ex=1&origin=HP005189866



David


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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[David Bolton]

On 12/7/2013 6:39 AM, Urs Liska wrote:
>
> As can be seen here (one more time):
>
> Am 07.12.2013 08:45, schrieb Janek Warchoł:
>> 2013/12/7 David Bolton :
>>
>> ...
>>
>> And by the way, why are you using documentation for versions 2.16 and
>> 2.17 while the file is marked as 2.14? This looks like a bad idea.
>> best, Janek
>
> It may also be a good idea to find a way to visually distinguish
> between the stable and the development sections of website/manual?
>

Maybe it is helpful to know that I got to the manual page from a web
search.

I realized that I was on the wrong version because of the URL, but there
is no easy way to get to the right version. For example, manually
changing the version number in the URL never seems to work (it gives 404
errors), and there are no links on the page to the equivalent
documentation for other versions.

My recommendations would be:
1. Use a consistent URL for the latest stable version of LilyPond
documentation. That way web searches and other pages across the web link
to the latest version instead of ancient versions of the documentation.

2. On old or unstable documentation include a link to the equivalent
page in the stable version of the documentation.

David


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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/7 David Kastrup :
>
>> It may also be a good idea to find a way to visually distinguish
>> between the stable and the development sections of website/manual?
>
> Stable: solid color in the color coded area.
>
> Development: diagonally striped or patterned in some other way.


+1

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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 06.12.2013 09:12, schrieb Janek Warchoł:
>> 2013/12/6 Carl Peterson :
>>> Having worked for two corporations that have fairly extensive (and
>>> stringent) visual identity and branding guidelines (colors, typeface,
>>> formatting, etc.), I've learned that there are ways to make an obvious
>>> change between two things while still making them look like they go
>>> together.
>> A suggestion from my colleague: for a long time he kept confusing LM
>> and NR, and he said that it would be nice if (for example) they had
>> different color schemes so that one will know where to look at things
>> ("hmm, i remember seeing it in the blue manual...").
>>
>> Janek
>>
>
> As can be seen here (one more time):
>
> Am 07.12.2013 08:45, schrieb Janek Warchoł:
>> 2013/12/7 David Bolton :
>>
>> ...
>>
>> And by the way, why are you using documentation for versions 2.16
>> and 2.17 while the file is marked as 2.14? This looks like a bad
>> idea. best, Janek
>
> It may also be a good idea to find a way to visually distinguish
> between the stable and the development sections of website/manual?

Stable: solid color in the color coded area.

Development: diagonally striped or patterned in some other way.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Urs Liska]

Am 06.12.2013 09:12, schrieb Janek Warchoł:

2013/12/6 Carl Peterson :

Having worked for two corporations that have fairly extensive (and
stringent) visual identity and branding guidelines (colors, typeface,
formatting, etc.), I've learned that there are ways to make an obvious
change between two things while still making them look like they go
together.

A suggestion from my colleague: for a long time he kept confusing LM
and NR, and he said that it would be nice if (for example) they had
different color schemes so that one will know where to look at things
("hmm, i remember seeing it in the blue manual...").

Janek



As can be seen here (one more time):

Am 07.12.2013 08:45, schrieb Janek Warchoł:

2013/12/7 David Bolton :

...

And by the way, why are you using documentation for versions 2.16 and 
2.17 while the file is marked as 2.14? This looks like a bad idea. 
best, Janek


It may also be a good idea to find a way to visually distinguish between 
the stable and the development sections of website/manual?


Urs


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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Urs Liska]

Am 06.12.2013 21:26, schrieb Janek Warchoł:

Urs,

2013/12/6 David Kastrup :

Urs Liska  writes:



I think although not explicitly stated as a feature request the
discussion surely yields

3. Clarify first steps/new user experience.

I don't think that this is the same topic.  The listed requests are
about the web site representation and possible restructuring, but you
talk about content details.  They may be worth amending, but that's not
the "Website Work" that Carl is thinking about doing.  It has nothing to
do with website programming.

David is right, this is a different kind of task - not technical, but
creative.  And i think it's worth doing; personally i agree with your
suggestions.

Since this is separate from Carl's work, i think you could start right
now and work in parallel to him.  For starters, create a patch with a
set of most obvious changes - it should go through easily, and i'll
gladly review it!


OK, I'll review the "entry path" again - more closely and concretely - 
and will think about an outline. Once that's finished I'll decide 
whether to create a patch directly or put that outline up for discussion 
first.


Urs


best,
Janek

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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Janek Warchoł]

Urs,

2013/12/6 David Kastrup :
> Urs Liska  writes:
>
>> Am 06.12.2013 14:12, schrieb Federico Bruni:
>>> These problems should be recorded in our tracker.
>>> So far I've seen 2 issues/feature requests:
>>>
>>> 1. improve SEO
>>> 2. associate a different color scheme to each manual
>> I think although not explicitly stated as a feature request the
>> discussion surely yields
>>
>> 3. Clarify first steps/new user experience.
>
> I don't think that this is the same topic.  The listed requests are
> about the web site representation and possible restructuring, but you
> talk about content details.  They may be worth amending, but that's not
> the "Website Work" that Carl is thinking about doing.  It has nothing to
> do with website programming.

David is right, this is a different kind of task - not technical, but
creative.  And i think it's worth doing; personally i agree with your
suggestions.

Since this is separate from Carl's work, i think you could start right
now and work in parallel to him.  For starters, create a patch with a
set of most obvious changes - it should go through easily, and i'll
gladly review it!

best,
Janek

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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Phil Burfitt]

From: "Ryan McClure" 
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 6:59 PM




I just did a Google search on a computer that I've never used/logged into
before. My account was fresh, and I did these searches without any 
previous

history affecting my results:

"Music notation software"

Lilypond came in at 25.

"Free music notation software"

It came in at 11.

"Free music typesetting software"

It was 7.

"Music typesetting software"

It's number 1.

Just thought I'd share the different results I got.



Ah yes, forgot, I was using google.co.uk when I did that search.

Phil.





And a correction to my own search (google.co.uk)...

"free music notation software"

9. lilypond.org

I thought it was a bit strange that I couldn't find lilypond after 20 pages!

Phil.


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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Phil Burfitt]

From: "Ryan McClure" 
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 6:59 PM




I just did a Google search on a computer that I've never used/logged into
before. My account was fresh, and I did these searches without any 
previous

history affecting my results:

"Music notation software"

Lilypond came in at 25.

"Free music notation software"

It came in at 11.

"Free music typesetting software"

It was 7.

"Music typesetting software"

It's number 1.

Just thought I'd share the different results I got.



Ah yes, forgot, I was using google.co.uk when I did that search.

Phil.



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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Ryan McClure]

I just did a Google search on a computer that I've never used/logged into
before. My account was fresh, and I did these searches without any previous
history affecting my results:

"Music notation software"

Lilypond came in at 25.

"Free music notation software"

It came in at 11.

"Free music typesetting software"

It was 7.

"Music typesetting software"

It's number 1.

Just thought I'd share the different results I got.



-
Ryan McClure

Music Education Major, Shepherd University
Luna Music Engraving
www.lunamusicengraving.com
--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/LilyPond-Website-Work-was-A-thought-on-Windows-Experience-tp155110p155236.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Carl Peterson]

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Phil Holmes  wrote:

>
> Well, yes, as CPU load.  I remain of the view that this is not a good use
> of time - there are other things that will be of greater value for less
> effort. Remember, you'll not be doing this by editing HTML, but the
> texi2HTML control files.
>

>From looking at the git repo, I was under the impression that changing the
background image of the header would be handled by a CSS file, which
appears to exist as a monolithic css file in the repo. So that would be a
direct edit. That's why the facelift is item #1 on my list, because it
requires the least technical knowledge to make happen.
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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Phil Burfitt" 
To: "Phil Holmes" ; "Carl Peterson" 
; "James Harkins" 

Cc: "Mailinglist lilypond-user" 
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)


- Original Message - 
From: "Phil Holmes" 

Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 3:35 PM


Our server is provided on a goodwill basis, and so we would not want to 
use any scripting that might load it.



Carl Perterson wrote:
CSS gradients can be coded for fewer bytes and one less server request,
with graceful degradation if CSS3 is not available on a browser.




TBH, this is a complete waste of time.  The image files are minuscule and 
affect loading time zilch.



For every image link in an html page, a browser makes another http request 
to get that image! You said you want to save server load?


Phil.



Well, yes, as CPU load.  I remain of the view that this is not a good use of 
time - there are other things that will be of greater value for less effort. 
Remember, you'll not be doing this by editing HTML, but the texi2HTML 
control files.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Phil Burfitt]

- Original Message - 
From: "Phil Holmes" 

Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 3:35 PM


Our server is provided on a goodwill basis, and so we would not want to use 
any scripting that might load it.



Carl Perterson wrote:
CSS gradients can be coded for fewer bytes and one less server request,
with graceful degradation if CSS3 is not available on a browser.




TBH, this is a complete waste of time.  The image files are minuscule and 
affect loading time zilch.



For every image link in an html page, a browser makes another http request 
to get that image! You said you want to save server load?


Phil.




Phil Holmes



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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[David Kastrup]

"Phil Holmes"  writes:

> - Original Message - 
> From: Carl Peterson
>
>> I want to eventually eliminate any image file that does not
>> contribute to content.
>> The first victim of this will be the gradient images used for the
>> header and navigation backgrounds.
>> CSS gradients can be coded for fewer bytes and one less server request,
>> with graceful degradation if CSS3 is not available on a browser.
>
> TBH, this is a complete waste of time.  The image files are minuscule
> and affect loading time zilch.

They don't affect the network capacity significantly, but if they are
fetched via a different TCP connection on a congested network, they may
at times arrive later than other content.  So for incrementally
rendering browsers, this may occasionally improve flashing of the page
updates.

And "graceful degradation" is nice for text browsers.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: Carl Peterson


I want to eventually eliminate any image file that does not contribute to 
content.
The first victim of this will be the gradient images used for the header 
and navigation backgrounds.

CSS gradients can be coded for fewer bytes and one less server request,
with graceful degradation if CSS3 is not available on a browser.


TBH, this is a complete waste of time.  The image files are minuscule and 
affect loading time zilch.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Carl Peterson]

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:00 AM, James Harkins  wrote:

> A side comment, picking up on a comment in the "Windows experience" thread:
>
> I hope the new site will avoid any hooks to Google analytics or other APIs.
> I'm behind the Great Firewall of China, and I see frequently how Google
> dependencies cause page loading times to balloon, while the browser waits
> for
> blocked connections to time out.
>
> This is one of the rare times when I can complain about that problem
> *before*
> the problem gets built into yet another website :-)
>
> hjh
>

This is one of a number of targets of what I would like to eventually work
through, particularly:

1) No external server dependencies. This includes jQuery, external
analytics, web font services, or any such things. Each of these are
additional calls that make things take longer. I've mentioned on the
previous thread that if the server has the capability, I would, at some
point, like to look into an internal analytics system.

2) No extraneous file loads. While there will be a separate CSS file (as
there is now), I want to eventually eliminate any image file that does not
contribute to content. The first victim of this will be the gradient images
used for the header and navigation backgrounds. CSS gradients can be coded
for fewer bytes and one less server request, with graceful degradation if
CSS3 is not available on a browser.

Regarding #2, this does not necessarily mean "no images." I think we
actually need *more* images. However, I think the images that we do have
need to be content (examples of music, etc.), not window-dressing.
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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 06.12.2013 14:12, schrieb Federico Bruni:
>> These problems should be recorded in our tracker.
>> So far I've seen 2 issues/feature requests:
>>
>> 1. improve SEO
>> 2. associate a different color scheme to each manual
> I think although not explicitly stated as a feature request the
> discussion surely yields
>
> 3. Clarify first steps/new user experience.

I don't think that this is the same topic.  The listed requests are
about the web site representation and possible restructuring, but you
talk about content details.  They may be worth amending, but that's not
the "Website Work" that Carl is thinking about doing.  It has nothing to
do with website programming.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Urs Liska]

Am 06.12.2013 14:12, schrieb Federico Bruni:

These problems should be recorded in our tracker.
So far I've seen 2 issues/feature requests:

1. improve SEO
2. associate a different color scheme to each manual
I think although not explicitly stated as a feature request the 
discussion surely yields


3. Clarify first steps/new user experience.

Obviously it isn't clear enough what a new user has to expect from a 
text based notation program.

If I follow the trail from the front page I will read
a) "Introduction". OK, this doesn't tell me anything about how I'd have 
to work with LilyPond, but that's OK for that page (IMO)


b) "Features". This is problematic, I think:
- The "Elegance" box is OK, but I'm not sure why this is on a different 
page than "Our Goals" on "Introduction".

- "Ease of use". I have several problems with this box
  - "Text based input". Actually this says that you edit text files in 
an editor. But it does nothing to explain the concept who doesn't know 
about it already.
" The input contains all the information, so there is no need to 
remember complex command sequences: simply save a file for later reference"

I think this is simply misleading.
  - "Mix music and text" is actually a feature but doesn't have to do 
with "Ease of use".
  - "Extensible design" with Scheme absolutely doesn't belong to "Ease 
of use".


c) "Environment
- I think the "Editors" section should be first here. OK, Free Software 
is important, but I think at least at this point the user should finally 
be told what kind of tool he is suggested to download:
  - Currently the "Editors" section sounds too optional, something 
like: "If you want you also can try alternative editors".

The term "Easier Editing" is suggesting this too.
As a new user I'd probably think: "OK, I'll come back to this but 
first I'll give it a try with the built-in editor" :-(

So:
  - make it explicit that LilyPond itself doesn't have a GUI and will 
only process text files it is given.

  - make it explicit that you have to use an editor for this.
  - Say that it's part of the beauty of text based tools that you can 
use _any_ text editor,
but that it is highly recommended to use one of the available 
dedicated GUI programs.
  - Suggest Denemo and Frescobaldi as appropriate tools (maybe giving a 
few hints about their characteristics)

and say that these tools will take care of installing LilyPond too.
This can be quite short but should definitely contain a link to the 
"Text input" page.
This is actually very useful in our context, but again the section about 
"Easier Editing" isn't explicit enough.

Somehow this give the impression we're somehow ashamed of something.
In any case the message is too weak. The user _has_ to know he's going 
to use a compiler and needs a "programmer's editor" for that.

(Of course worded less bluntly).

###

This isn't a "one should" post. I'm ready to contribute to this, as long 
as it is clear that changing contents on this level doesn't interfere 
with other current ideas of restructuring the web site.


Urs

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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[James Harkins]

A side comment, picking up on a comment in the "Windows experience" thread:

I hope the new site will avoid any hooks to Google analytics or other APIs. 
I'm behind the Great Firewall of China, and I see frequently how Google 
dependencies cause page loading times to balloon, while the browser waits for 
blocked connections to time out.

This is one of the rare times when I can complain about that problem *before* 
the problem gets built into yet another website :-)

hjh


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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Federico Bruni writes:

> 2013/12/6 Phil Burfitt 
>
> Carl, you might also like to keep in mind Lilypond's search rankings while
> you redesign.

> This is really bad, I never checked it.
> 1. improve SEO

I guess I'm glad someone notices and seems to care

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-11/msg00258.html

at last...

Greetings, Jan

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen  | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org
Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar®  http://AvatarAcademy.nl  

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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Federico Bruni]

2013/12/6 Phil Burfitt 

> Carl, you might also like to keep in mind Lilypond's search rankings while
> you redesign. A first page listing would bump up traffic considerable, and
> shouldn't be hard to achieve given that whoever designed lilypond's
> homepage hasn't given any thought to SE ranking - there's just no relevant
> text. (might rank well with "We are happy/pleased/proud to announce"
> though).
>
>
:-)


> google search term: "music notation software"
>
> 1. musescore.org
> 2. sibelius.com
> 3. finalemusic.com
> .
> 18. lilypond.org
>
>
> google search term: "free music notation software"
>
> 1. musescore.org
> 2. finalemusic.com
> 3. noteflight.com
> .
>
>> 200 lilypond.org (couldn't find it - I stopped at page 20)
>>
>
>
>
This is really bad, I never checked it.

These problems should be recorded in our tracker.
So far I've seen 2 issues/feature requests:

1. improve SEO
2. associate a different color scheme to each manual

This is the list of issues when searching "website" in our tracker:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list?can=2&q=website&colspec=ID+Type+Status+Stars+Owner+Patch+Needs+Summary&x=type&cells=tiles

A label:Website may be useful?
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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[Phil Burfitt]

Carl, you might also like to keep in mind Lilypond's search rankings while 
you redesign. A first page listing would bump up traffic considerable, and 
shouldn't be hard to achieve given that whoever designed lilypond's homepage 
hasn't given any thought to SE ranking - there's just no relevant text. 
(might rank well with "We are happy/pleased/proud to announce" though).


google search term: "music notation software"

1. musescore.org
2. sibelius.com
3. finalemusic.com
.
18. lilypond.org


google search term: "free music notation software"

1. musescore.org
2. finalemusic.com
3. noteflight.com
.

200 lilypond.org (couldn't find it - I stopped at page 20)



Phil.


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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/6 David Kastrup :
> Janek Warchoł  writes:
>> A suggestion from my colleague: for a long time he kept confusing LM
>> and NR, and he said that it would be nice if (for example) they had
>> different color schemes so that one will know where to look at things
>> ("hmm, i remember seeing it in the blue manual...").
>
> Learning - Green book
> Using - White book
> Notation - Blue book
> Extending - Red book
> Internals - Black book
>
> A complete color _scheme_ might be distracting, but it may make sense to
> have a title or side bar or other obvious always on-screen element
> color-coded.

+1

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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[David Kastrup]

Janek Warchoł  writes:

> 2013/12/6 Carl Peterson :
>> Having worked for two corporations that have fairly extensive (and
>> stringent) visual identity and branding guidelines (colors, typeface,
>> formatting, etc.), I've learned that there are ways to make an obvious
>> change between two things while still making them look like they go
>> together.
>
> A suggestion from my colleague: for a long time he kept confusing LM
> and NR, and he said that it would be nice if (for example) they had
> different color schemes so that one will know where to look at things
> ("hmm, i remember seeing it in the blue manual...").

Learning - Green book
Using - White book
Notation - Blue book
Extending - Red book
Internals - Black book

A complete color _scheme_ might be distracting, but it may make sense to
have a title or side bar or other obvious always on-screen element
color-coded.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/6 Carl Peterson :
> Having worked for two corporations that have fairly extensive (and
> stringent) visual identity and branding guidelines (colors, typeface,
> formatting, etc.), I've learned that there are ways to make an obvious
> change between two things while still making them look like they go
> together.

A suggestion from my colleague: for a long time he kept confusing LM
and NR, and he said that it would be nice if (for example) they had
different color schemes so that one will know where to look at things
("hmm, i remember seeing it in the blue manual...").

Janek

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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Carl Peterson]

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
>
>  On 12/5/13 9:43 AM, "Carl Peterson"  wrote:
>
> >
> >1) Review the CSS of both the website and the documentation. These are
> >simply CSS files that don't need any compiling or reconfiguring. The
> >eyesore for me is the documentation, and it would be nice to start to
> >move the two into more of a seamless experience (where there's not an
> >obvious change in the look beyond the documentation being documentation
> >with a side frame for navigation.
>
> Personally, I prefer the obvious change in look, because I like to know
> when I'm in the documentation.  But that's just *my* opinion; others may
> agree with you.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl S.
>
> Having worked for two corporations that have fairly extensive (and
stringent) visual identity and branding guidelines (colors, typeface,
formatting, etc.), I've learned that there are ways to make an obvious
change between two things while still making them look like they go
together. At a minimum, unless we do a complete overhaul of our
documentation system, the navigation sidebar is going to be an obvious
indication that we've gone to another system. There are other things, such
as header bars (as we have), that by their presence will indicate a
different system, but the basic design can be similar or the same.

That being said, you may be right, and perhaps we need some additional
distinction between the two. *But,* I do feel like the stylesheet on the
documentation needs to be reviewed and updated, regardless.

Cheers,

Carl P.
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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Carl Sorensen]

On 12/5/13 9:43 AM, "Carl Peterson"  wrote:

>
>1) Review the CSS of both the website and the documentation. These are
>simply CSS files that don't need any compiling or reconfiguring. The
>eyesore for me is the documentation, and it would be nice to start to
>move the two into more of a seamless experience (where there's not an
>obvious change in the look beyond the documentation being documentation
>with a side frame for navigation.

Personally, I prefer the obvious change in look, because I like to know
when I'm in the documentation.  But that's just *my* opinion; others may
agree with you.

Thanks,

Carl S.


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Re: LilyPond Website Work (was: A thought on Windows Experience)

[Janek Warchoł]

Hi,

2013/12/5 Carl Peterson :
> Having dived into the git repo and page source a little, here is what I see
> as the "road map" to improving the look of the LilyPond website, with an eye
> toward getting the most benefit the fastest.
> [...]

I have no expertise in these areas, so i cannot comment on the
technical side.  But i can provide feedback and testing - just ask!

best,
Janek

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Re: Lilypond website

[Aaron]

There is a 'script'  for that look in the documents for templates copy 
the one that fits your needs adjust the key etc and off you go.

Aaron

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Re: Lilypond website

[donald_j_axel]

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 19:57:49 +0100
Han-Wen Nienhuys  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I am looking forward to your constructive criticism, and will read
> your patches closely.


The discussion has brought forward many new points to me. I was
aware that clickers might spend as much time, and that text-format
and CVS is the ultimate tool for larger projects.

Dear Han-Wen (and Jan), I was fascinated by the beautiful fonts
from first on. I have tried to learn some Scheme (and understand
a little now, soon more) and want to contribute. However! I think
I had better study many more details before trying to add anything.

The best way for me to contribute at this stage is simply to make
a HOWTO on piano music with LilyPond. PianoMusic is sometimes very
difficult and demands many subtle techniques. I do not dare to do
Ravel's "Jeu d'eaux" but after doing Chopin's C Major prelude and
some of my own stuff, seeing grace notes and acciacaturas in the
Nereides I am convinced that it can be done, because one has access
to all the parameters of sizes and distances.

So LilyPond is great for sure. Thank you for your great work.

After the first success one simply re-uses code. My HOWTO will
include examples on how to use internal variables, and explain
where it isn't good. Many examples may be collected from the mail
list (asking people if it is ok or making a parallel).

So I am in a position where I enjoy *very much* to discover and
use the power of LilyPond.


Happy New Year

Donald


-- 
donald_j_axel(at)get2net.dk -- http://d-axel.dk/


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Re: Lilypond website

[chip]

Chip Zoller wrote:
I just ran across your software and decided to try it
out.  I like what people say and have been curious as
to music engraving for Linux.  
I am using Lilypond on FreeBSD, it works great. My son uses Lilypond on 
XP (with cygwin), it works great there also. In the windows version he 
has to reload acrobat reader every time he views his piece, in *nix you 
just have to refresh the piece in the acrobat viewer, not reload the 
viewer, it's much quicker that way, on the *nix version.

Like I said, I am a
fan of open source software and Linux, but I can
assure you that no professional engraver will use
something that has to be engraved through a command
line!  
I've seen similar arguments used for html/web page design "no 
professional web page designer would create his pages in a plain text 
editor". Not true at all. If you want to get more work done more 
efficiently, and maybe even quicker, the cli (command line interface) or 
plain text editor, will always beat the point/click of mousing around 
the screen. Of course there is also the fact that the gui programs are 
slower to load and use becuase of the extra weight of the hundreds of 
'features' that they are loaded with, and most average users never make 
use of.

I am looking forward to great advancement in
this program and will follow it closely.
 
Chip Zoller
I am just learning Lilypond, just installed it not more than a couple 
weeks ago, then my son followed me and installed it on his machine. I 
have been using Finale for the last year or so, my son has been use 
MidiSoft Studio. He's really enjoying learning a new 'programming 
language', which this is akin to.

I don't expect I'll be going back to Finale now that I am beginning to 
get a handle on Lilypond, plus it makes it much easier to make the move, 
compoletely away from the MS Windows mess. A music notation program was 
probably one of the last apps I didn't have in BSD.

This is great stuff, enjoy learning it.
--
Chip Wiegand


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Re: Lilypond website

[Pedro Kroger]

* Nicolas Sceaux ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> The real issue is: what time does it take to write the score with
> LilyPond and Finale? IMHO tap tap tap is a lot faster than clic clic
> clic. Maybe the learning curve of LilyPond is longer (I don't know),
> but having regular text source code and command line are *features*,
> not drawbacks, because they make typesetting a lot faster, and reusing
> a lot easier. 

I couldn't agree more. From my experience (10 years of finale and 1.5
of lilypond), the time to write a "complex" score is more or less the
same in both. But scores written in lilypond are far more maintainable
than in any binary format, specially if one uses CVS.

Cheers,

Pedro



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Re: Lilypond website

[Pedro Kroger]

* Chip Zoller ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

> I can assure you that no professional engraver will use something
> that has to be engraved through a command line!  

What about SCORE? It has been used by the largest publication houses
like Barenreiter, Universal Edition, Schott, Breitkopf & Hartel,
G. Schirmer, Boosey & Hawkes, Ricordi. 

> Finale is used by some of the world's largest publication houses
> (even Barenreiter) and I don't think they would all be using it if a
> better approach to engraving existed.

Interestingly, I found the new (and expensive) Barenreiter
edition of Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 poorly engraved compared with
the usual Barenreiter editions. Probably because they've switch from
SCORE to finale. :-)

Pedro



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Re: Lilypond website

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Chip Zoller writes:

> The problem with criticisms such as this one don't take into
> consideration that everything with Finale and more is fully
> customizeable.

The argument is mostly about automated engraving.  Customizability
does not score points.  We had discussions on this before, please look
in the archives.

> Finale is used by some of the world's largest publication houses
> (even Barenreiter)
> and I don't think they would all be using it if a better approach to
> engraving existed.

You have contacts with Baerenreiter, that's very interesting!  I
understand that publishing houses never talk about the software they
use.  You would not happen to know the last time Baerenreiter tested
and dismissed LilyPond?  We're always interested in hearing about
problems they might have.

Jan.

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | GNU LilyPond - The music typesetter
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jantien   | http://www.lilypond.org



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Re: Lilypond website

[Nicolas Sceaux]

Sun, 4 Jan 2004 06:17:49 -0800 (PST), Chip a dit : 

 > Finale is used by some of the world's
 > largest publication houses (even Barenreiter) and I
 > don't think they would all be using it if a better
 > approach to engraving existed.

The `better' does not always coincide with `the most used', and vice
versa. These are orthogonal qualities. Human beings are not that
logical. Vulcanians are.

 > I can assure you that no professional engraver will use
 > something that has to be engraved through a command
 > line!

The real issue is: what time does it take to write the score with
LilyPond and Finale? IMHO tap tap tap is a lot faster than clic clic
clic. Maybe the learning curve of LilyPond is longer (I don't know),
but having regular text source code and command line are *features*,
not drawbacks, because they make typesetting a lot faster, and reusing
a lot easier. But I'm no professional engraver, I cannot assume
too much about the importance of time for someone making money in
typesetting scores (ironic smiley here).

Best regards,
Nicolas



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Re: Lilypond website

[Aaron]

 One thing struck me as
being unfair, however: your approach and criticism of
Finale.  I am a theorist and composer and I use Finale
exclusively to engrave my work and your criticism of
it is unfair when pitted against Lilypond.  The
problem with criticisms such as this one don't take
into consideration that everything with Finale and
more is fully customizeable. 

Hi Chip,
The news  is that Sibelius just outshines Finale in most areas.
I used Finale for years and Lyrics have always stunk, sorry my french.
A good portion of poor design issues that were with finale from day one 
still make using it such a pain.



Furthermore, I have
NEVER experieced results like the piece you posted
with default settings. 

Well I have and even though finale isn't all that bad, you are stuck 
with their way of doing things or you are out of luck.

One thing I found with binary formats is the inabilty to search for 
strings. What I mean is that with lilypond, abc and the ascii based 
notation systems I can search within a directory for a motif a8 a b b c 
c a. To do this with a binary format is almost impossible with out 
expensive customized software.

Infact if Sibelius could also do lilypond, abc et all I would choose it 
over all the alternatives.

My 2 cents.
Aaron




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Re: Lilypond website

[Atte André Jensen]

Chip Zoller wrote:
 but I can
assure you that no professional engraver will use
something that has to be engraved through a command
line!
Huh? I am in the finishing process of a medium size commercial project
done in lilypond, and although my wishlist is long so is my impresslist.
I don't know finale so I won't put it down, but "I can assure you" that
lilypond quite capable.
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk



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