Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
Am 21.01.2011 03:05, schrieb Daniel:
Hello,
Hello Daniel,
I have recently discovered Lilypond, and wow. It is just great. I have been
looking for something like this for a long time.
:-)
I have a question on how to diatonically transpose a motive in a non-major or
minor scale in this case, a pentatonic.
For instance, suppose I have this pentatonic {a c d e g } and I have a phrase
that is {a c g e} and now I want that phrase to start on g so transposed
diatonically to the "mode" (its not really, but that is basically what I want)
of that a pentatonic it would be {g a e d}.
If I use regular "\transpose a g {MyPhrase}" it will come out {g bes f d} and
include notes that are not in my original a minor pentatonic.
Can I define my own modes? I know that \dorian, \ionian are in there somewhere,
can I make my own scale\modes somehow and just use those?
This issue came up in 2008 and John Mandereau wrote some functions
which IMHO do exactly what you need, please look at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2008-12/msg00805.html
HTH,
Marc
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Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
Marc Hohl hohlart.de> writes: > > Am 21.01.2011 03:05, schrieb Daniel: > > Hello, > > > This issue came up in 2008 and John Mandereau wrote some functions > which IMHO do exactly what you need, please look at > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2008-12/msg00805.html > > HTH, > > Marc > Unfortunately >From his documentation below, This only works with 7 note scales and wont work with Pentatonic scales. Also, even with a 7 note scaleI can't get this to work as expected after trying several different things. The "mode transpose" always seems to add sharps or flats even when the original snippet has none. "All these functions except degree-transpose are currently limited to scales and modes of length 7; using scales with different length requires a pitch representation that separates notions of degree and note name, that is, it requires scales definitions different from those currently in ly/scale-definitions-init.ly and more complex functions for converting between LilyPond pitch representation and "modal" pitch representation." Any other ideas? Thanks for the info! Daniel ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
Am 21.01.2011 08:46, schrieb Basso Ridiculoso:
Hello Marc,
Danke für deine antwort zu meine frage! :)
Its funny you point out those functins, because I have been looking at
that...but I have not been able to make it work. I hope you don't mind
a direct reply to your email.
No problem, but since others may encounter the same problem, it is
better to discuss it on the
list, so I redirect the reply to -user.
I don't believe I can define only a 5 note scale with his function, it
will only do 7 notes?
Sorry, I overlooked the term "pentatonic" in your first mail.
I think that heptatonic scales are somewhat "hardcoded" in lilypond, but
I am not sure about this.
And the only syntax example I have seen on using that is about 2 years
old and it isn't obvious what I would transpose.
I have been working from this one..but no dice so far.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnu.lilypond.general/43719/match=john+mandereau+transpose
And here is where get lost
% mix between lydian and mixolydian
milydian = #`(
(0 . 0)
(1 . 0)
(2 . 0)
(3 . ,SHARP)
(4 . 0)
(5 . 0)
(6 . ,FLAT))
melodie = \relative c' { \times 2/3 { cis8 d e } f2 }
\new Staff {
\time 3/4
\melodie
\mode*Transpose* g \milydian #-3 d' \lydian \melodie % IV -> I
\mode*Transpose* g \milydian #3 e' \lydian \melodie % IV -> VII
}
So I guess I would define
MyPentatonc = #`(
(0 . 0) % the root a
(1 . ,SHARP) %to get c?
(2 . 0) %the note d
(3 . 0) %the note e
(5 . ,SHARP)) %the note g?
This is assuming that the (1.0) distance is a whole step?
No. IMHO the first number is the number of the note within the scale,
whereas the second number is 0 when the note is not altered, otherwise
you have to wite ,FLAT or ,SHARP, respectively.
I don't think that pentatonic scales are supported as-is, but I could be
wrong.
Perhaps anyone more familiar with the internals can chime in?
So then, how do I say "diatonically transpose to 'mode' of g' within
that scale? I dont get what he is doing with the \modetranspose and
the \lydian etc. Do I have to define each mode of the pentatonic
somewhere as well?
Thanks for answering so quick! Any help would be appreciate
Sorry for not being able to be more helpful...
Regards,
Marc
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Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 4:41 AM, Daniel wrote: > Any other ideas? > Hi Daniel, Here's a partial, but very general solution that will modally transpose within any scale (or any ordered set of pitches) of any length using modulo arithmetic. To make it usable in LilyPond, you'll need to wrap it in one or music functions that can 1. Extract pitch names from music as strings or, better yet as symbols. 2. Run the pitch names through a transposer created with the scheme function below 3. Deal with octave issues so that your melodic outline is preserved. This is probably the trickiest part. 4. Insert the modified pitches back into the music stream. Cheers, Mike #(use-modules (srfi srfi-1)) %needed for list-index and list-ref #(define (make-modal-transposer scale) ;; Returns a transposer for the specified scale ;; Usage example: ;;Create a transposer for C major pentatonic ;;(define c-pent (make-modal-transposer '(c d e g a))) ;; ;;Apply to sequence of pitch names, ;;specifying the starting pitch of the desired mode as ;;the first argument to the transposer. ;;(c-pent 'd '(c c e d a))==> '(d d g e c) (define (index item lis) (list-index (lambda (x) (equal? item x)) lis)) (lambda (mode-pitch pitch-sequence) (if (not (member mode-pitch scale)) (error "Transposition target pitch not in scale!")) (map (lambda (p) (if (not (member p scale)) (error "Sequence pitch not in scale!")) (list-ref scale (modulo (+ (index p scale) (index mode-pitch scale)) (length scale pitch-sequence))) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
Hey Daniel,
Check out http://wiki.lilynet.net/index.php/JM_diatonic-transpose.ly .
Cheers,
MS
On Jan 20, 2011, at 9:05 PM, Daniel wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have recently discovered Lilypond, and wow. It is just great. I have been
> looking for something like this for a long time.
>
> I have a question on how to diatonically transpose a motive in a non-major or
> minor scale in this case, a pentatonic.
>
> For instance, suppose I have this pentatonic {a c d e g } and I have a phrase
> that is {a c g e} and now I want that phrase to start on g so transposed
> diatonically to the "mode" (its not really, but that is basically what I want)
> of that a pentatonic it would be {g a e d}.
>
> If I use regular "\transpose a g {MyPhrase}" it will come out {g bes f d} and
> include notes that are not in my original a minor pentatonic.
>
> Can I define my own modes? I know that \dorian, \ionian are in there
> somewhere,
> can I make my own scale\modes somehow and just use those?
>
> Thanks for any advice or snippets!
>
> Daniel
>
>
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Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
Am 21.01.2011 05:26, schrieb m...@apollinemike.com:
Hey Daniel,
Check out http://wiki.lilynet.net/index.php/JM_diatonic-transpose.ly .
This is more or less the same info I emailed him - unfortunately, we
both missed
the fact that he asked for _pentatonic_ transposition, which isn't
supported by
the file mentioned above :-(
But it looks as if Michael Ellis has posted a working solution...
Regards,
Marc
Cheers,
MS
On Jan 20, 2011, at 9:05 PM, Daniel wrote:
Hello,
I have recently discovered Lilypond, and wow. It is just great. I
have been
looking for something like this for a long time.
I have a question on how to diatonically transpose a motive in a
non-major or
minor scale in this case, a pentatonic.
For instance, suppose I have this pentatonic {a c d e g } and I have
a phrase
that is {a c g e} and now I want that phrase to start on g so transposed
diatonically to the "mode" (its not really, but that is basically
what I want)
of that a pentatonic it would be {g a e d}.
If I use regular "\transpose a g {MyPhrase}" it will come out {g bes
f d} and
include notes that are not in my original a minor pentatonic.
Can I define my own modes? I know that \dorian, \ionian are in there
somewhere,
can I make my own scale\modes somehow and just use those?
Thanks for any advice or snippets!
Daniel
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Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
Marc Hohl hohlart.de> writes: > > Am 21.01.2011 05:26, schrieb mike apollinemike.com: > > Hey Daniel, > > > > Check out http://wiki.lilynet.net/index.php/JM_diatonic-transpose.ly . > This is more or less the same info I emailed him - unfortunately, we > both missed > the fact that he asked for _pentatonic_ transposition, which isn't > supported by > the file mentioned above > Its ok, I do appreciate the help and the quick responses no matter what. I will take a look at that last suggestion and see if I can get it working. I do have the notes as text already and I think I can make this work. Thanks so much. Lilypond is awesome! Daniel ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
Hi Michael,
nice work! I just think that the name modal transposition is a little
misleading in this case. At first I thought that I could change the
mode of a tune with your function e.g. transpose music from c\major
to c\minor or something like that.
I just had the idea that it might be useful to add some more scales
to the standard LP mode names (\ionian, \dorian ...) such as e.g.
\majorPenta, \minorPenta. Maybe there's a way to extend your code and/
or the function of the existing \transpose-command to also be able to
do real modal transpositions such as e.g.
\transpose c\ionian c\locrian \mymusic %or
\transpose c\majorPenta c\minorPenta \mymusic % etc.
\transpose c a \pentatonicmusic %or
This way users wouldn't have to declare scales and when no modal
change is intended we could just use \transpose.
just my 2 cents...
Thanks,
patrick
Am 23.01.2011 um 00:45 schrieb Michael Ellis:
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 12:09 AM, Daniel
wrote:
Lilypond is awesome!
I agree! This topic was interest to me, so here's a cut at a working
solution based on my earlier post. The attached file,
modaltranspose.ly defines a new music function, \modalTranspose that
works almost like the normal chromatic \transpose but takes one extra
argument: the scale to use for the transposition. Here's the usage
example from the file
%% -- Demo --
%% Just to show it works with normally transposed music, too:-)
dPentScale = \transpose c d { c'4 d' e' g' a'1 }
mymotive = \transpose c d { c'4 c' e' d' c'1}
%% And here's an octatonic example
cOctatonicScale = {c'4 d' ees' f' ges' aes' a' b'}
octamotive = {c'4 ees' ges' a' b' aes' f' d' }
\score {
\new Staff {
\tempo "" 2=120
\mark "Pentatonic"
\dPentScale
\mymotive
\modalTranspose d' e' \dPentScale \mymotive
\mymotive
\break
\mark "Octatonic"
\cOctatonicScale
\octamotive
\modalTranspose c' a' \cOctatonicScale \octamotive
\octamotive
{ees'1} %% Can't stand not resolving :-)
}
\layout {}
\midi {}
}
%% ---
Seems to work with arbitrary scales, but be aware that the code will
(intentionally) throw an error if any pitch in what you're transposing
is not in the scale. I'm not sure what other result is reasonable for
arbitrary scales.
The code Probably has some other bugs, too :-) I'm open to
suggestions for improvement before I submit it to LSR.
Cheers,
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Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:21 AM, Patrick Schmidt wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> nice work! I just think that the name modal transposition is a little
> misleading in this case.
Thanks, Patrick! I agree that the name may be confusing. I considered
calling it something like \scalarImitation, since that's also
musically correct description of what it does.
FWIW, if you wanted to recast a passage in C-major to c-minor
(aeolian) you could use it this way:
cAeolian = { a b c d e f g }
\transpose a c \modalTranspose c a \cAeolian \somemusic
provided, of course, that \somemusic contained only notes in the key of C.
I'm pressed for time today, but will try to give a more thoughtful
reply to the other points in your message this evening. Perhaps some
others on the list will weigh in with more suggestions in the
meantime.
Cheers,
Mike
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Re: Pentatonic Diatonic Transposition?
On Jan 23, 2011, at 6:21 AM, Patrick Schmidt wrote: > nice work! I just think that the name modal transposition is a little > misleading in this case. At first I thought that I could change the mode of a > tune with your function e.g. transpose music from c\major to c\minor or > something like that. That's not changing the mode of a song. That's changing the key. C major has no sharps or flats, C (natural) minor has three flats (C harmonic minor and C melodic minor are special cases in terms of notation). Modes are within a single key: Ionian, Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian starting on the 1st through the 7th scale steps with in the key, respectively. > I just had the idea that it might be useful to add some more scales to the > standard LP mode names (\ionian, \dorian ...) such as e.g. \majorPenta, > \minorPenta. Maybe there's a way to extend your code and/or the function of > the existing \transpose-command to also be able to do real modal > transpositions such as e.g. > > > \transpose c\ionian c\locrian \mymusic %or > \transpose c\majorPenta c\minorPenta \mymusic % etc. > \transpose c a \pentatonicmusic %or > > > This way users wouldn't have to declare scales and when no modal change is > intended we could just use \transpose. Changing from C Ionian to C Locrian is a key change, not a modal change. C Locrian is the seventh mode of Db major. C major pentatonic is a different key than C minor pentatonic, the latter having the same key signature as Eb. Since "modal transposition" necessarily happens within a single key, I am not sure that "transposition" is the correct terminology (IMHO modes are largely a waste of time for performing musicians but that's a whole 'nother discussion that doesn't belong here). ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
