Re: Scoop (jazz notation)
On 15/05/2024 18:54, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote: On the other hand, you could argue that many examples of scoop are not intended to convey specific shapes, so a one-size-fits-all glyph is sufficient, and it is not intended to solve the problem of expressive glissando. Which, is also a reasonable argument. There is no reason both cannot exist. Responding to this, it seems to me that scoops, bends, glissandos etc are all the same family of articulations/embellishments/call-it-what-you-will. So I'd like to see some kind of generic all-encompassing solution. Han-Wen wrote bends for me, so I was surprised to discover that scoops (the same thing in a different place) seem not to have been done at the same time / the same way. My feeling would be can we implement something along similar lines to format-box-barnumber and friends. So we have \slideBeforeCurve et al, it's called a slide, it's Before or After, it can be a Curve, Straight, Jagged, it can be Fall, Rise, Anchored. I'm sure other people will be able to think of other things. And then we can special-case with shortcuts called \glissando, \bend, and so on. But as with \format..., back in the 2.2, 2.4 days I kept tripping over the fact that the particular mix I wanted hadn't been implemented, and then somebody kindly just implemented all possible combinations for me (and everybody else). So now whatever you wanted is "just there". (I did try to do it myself, I just couldn't grok scheme :-( If we look at it as "variations on a theme", we can have a simple, single implementation that can be tweaked to suit. Cheers, Wol
Re: Scoop (jazz notation)
> > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Tim Giles > To: lilypond-user@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 22:34:00 +0200 > Subject: Re: Scoop (jazz notation) > Thanks for the link, Werner. I have added a comment regarding the jazz > application. Cheers, -Tim > > > On 14 May 2024, at 19:21, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > > > > > >> I agree with Tim. It's one of those frequently used jazz-isms that > >> lilypond doesn't handle very elegantly. What's the procedure for > >> submitting a feature request like this? > > > > You might expand > > > > https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/529 > > > > with comments – and images of professionally typeset scores! – > > regarding its usage in jazz music. > > > > > >Werner > > Also, it would be good to discuss the feature here to see what people think about it. What kind of variety does it need to accommodate? What is the best way to conceptualize it, and how does it fit into the lilypond language? What are your suggestions for syntax, how you want to use it in code? >From my perspective, to start with, I would disagree that a scoop is an articulation. Conceptually, I can see how it is similar to an articulation, but I think there are bigger differences. Mainly, the space it takes on the page is prior to the note, like a glissando, not above the note, like an articulation. So it has horizontal implications that articulations do not. The scoop also describes how to approach the note, rather than what the note sounds like when you get to it. There is potentially a lot more information in a scoop, including the vertical pitch component, the horizontal duration, and to some extent the shape (linear vs convex vs concave), as well as all the engraving details about the thickness of the line. On the other hand, you could argue that many examples of scoop are not intended to convey specific shapes, so a one-size-fits-all glyph is sufficient, and it is not intended to solve the problem of expressive glissando. Which, is also a reasonable argument. There is no reason both cannot exist. However, from my perspective, I would want to be able to modify the scoop curve, so a solution that does not address spatial configuration would be disappointing. So, I am going to speak to that. My suggestion for syntax, since the scoop comes before the note, would be more along the lines of prefix \scoop c4 rather than postfix like an articulation c4-@ In terms of balancing ease of use with flexibility, there could be a more general function where you could specify the origin of the scoop One idea is to use a number pair to describe the X and Y extent of the scoop in units of staff spaces so the above examples might be \scoopFrom ( 1 . 1 ) c4 % default scoop \scoopFrom ( 4 . 1 ) c4 % long scoop \scoopFrom ( 1 . 4.5 ) c4 % octave tall scoop \scoopFrom ( 1 . -1 ) c4 % scoop from above? If we had this, then \scoop could be a shorthand for \scoopFrom ( 1 . 1 ) A similar but possibly more "musical" approach would be to have the \scoopFrom function take instead of a number pair, another note, that would suggest the location from which the scoop starts \scoopFrom a4 c4 % default scoop \scoopFrom a1 c4 % long scoop \scoopFrom c,4 c4 % octave tall scoop \scoopFrom e4 c4 % scoop from above Elaine Alt 415 . 341 .4954 "*Confusion is highly underrated*" ela...@flaminghakama.com Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist ~ Educator -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: Scoop (jazz notation)
As a short term solution you could save that script in a separate file, name the function \scoop and use it via an \include statement. > On May 14, 2024, at 3:35 PM, Tim Giles wrote: > > Thanks for the link, Werner. I have added a comment regarding the jazz > application. Cheers, -Tim > >>> On 14 May 2024, at 19:21, Werner LEMBERG wrote: >>> >>> >>> I agree with Tim. It's one of those frequently used jazz-isms that >>> lilypond doesn't handle very elegantly. What's the procedure for >>> submitting a feature request like this? >> >> You might expand >> >> https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/529 >> >> with comments – and images of professionally typeset scores! – >> regarding its usage in jazz music. >> >> >> Werner > > >
Re: Scoop (jazz notation)
Thanks for the link, Werner. I have added a comment regarding the jazz application. Cheers, -Tim > On 14 May 2024, at 19:21, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > > >> I agree with Tim. It's one of those frequently used jazz-isms that >> lilypond doesn't handle very elegantly. What's the procedure for >> submitting a feature request like this? > > You might expand > > https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/529 > > with comments – and images of professionally typeset scores! – > regarding its usage in jazz music. > > >Werner
Re: Scoop (jazz notation)
> I agree with Tim. It's one of those frequently used jazz-isms that > lilypond doesn't handle very elegantly. What's the procedure for > submitting a feature request like this? You might expand https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/529 with comments – and images of professionally typeset scores! – regarding its usage in jazz music. Werner
Re: Scoop (jazz notation)
I agree with Tim. It's one of those frequently used jazz-isms that lilypond doesn't handle very elegantly. What's the procedure for submitting a feature request like this? On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 7:37 AM savage.laurie wrote: > As a sax playing, big band copyist Lilypond user I think that's a great > suggestion. > > Laurie Savage > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > Original message > From: Tim Giles > Date: 14/5/24 8:02 pm (GMT+10:00) > To: lilypond-user@gnu.org > Subject: Scoop (jazz notation) > > Hi All, I have been looking for a way to write "scoops", a fairly common > effect in saxophone jazz. This is written as an upwards curve before the > note head, and indicates that the note starts low and quickly slides > upwards to the written pitch. > > [image: PastedGraphic-3.png] > > Paul Scott posted a script which can notate this a couple of years ago: > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2022-12/msg00313.html > > As this effect is quite commonly used, I wondered if there was any > interest in getting this mark added to Lilypond's built-in articulations? > > -Tim > -- *Jeff Kopmanis* Medium: https://kopmanis.medium.com GLAAC: https://www.glaac.org/ University Lowbrow Astronomers: http://umich.edu/~lowbrows Orange Can Astronomy: https://www.facebook.com/orangecanastronomy/ ** Go Green and leave this email on the Screen! **
RE: Scoop (jazz notation)
As a sax playing, big band copyist Lilypond user I think that's a great suggestion.Laurie SavageSent from my Galaxy Original message From: Tim Giles Date: 14/5/24 8:02 pm (GMT+10:00) To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Subject: Scoop (jazz notation) Hi All, I have been looking for a way to write "scoops", a fairly common effect in saxophone jazz. This is written as an upwards curve before the note head, and indicates that the note starts low and quickly slides upwards to the written pitch.Paul Scott posted a script which can notate this a couple of years ago:https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2022-12/msg00313.htmlAs this effect is quite commonly used, I wondered if there was any interest in getting this mark added to Lilypond's built-in articulations? -Tim
Re: Scoop (jazz notation)
Hi Tim, > I have been looking for a way to write "scoops", a fairly common effect in > saxophone jazz. Have you searched the list archive? e.g., https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2024-04/msg00125.html Hope that helps! Kieren. __ My work day may look different than your work day. Please do not feel obligated to read or respond to this email outside of your normal working hours.
