Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Carl Sorensen]

On 2/8/11 5:11 AM, "jakob lund"  wrote:

> 2011/2/6 Carl Sorensen :
>> I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.
>> 
>> You can download it at
>> 
>> > ttredirects=0&d=1>
> 
> There's an error in there, the G dim doesn't have a G in it (it should
> be the same as Gb dim shifted up a fret)

As I look at it, the G dim *is* the Gb dim shifted up a fret.  Gb dim on the
fifth fret, G dim on the sixth fret, and the notes of the G dim are Bb (4th
string), Db (3rd string), G (2nd string), and Bb (1st string).

The G dim7 isn't the Gb dim7 shifted up a fret, so maybe that's what you're
wondering about.  The notes on the Gb dim 7 are G Db Fb G, so it appears to
be missing a Bb, not a G.  So I think it's an error, and I'll fix it.

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[jakob lund]

2011/2/6 Carl Sorensen :
> I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.
>
> You can download it at
>
>  ttredirects=0&d=1>

There's an error in there, the G dim doesn't have a G in it (it should
be the same as Gb dim shifted up a fret)

Jakob.

>
> or view it at
>
> 
>
> Please comment.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl
>
>
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Tim McNamara]

On Feb 6, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Marc Hohl wrote:

> Am 06.02.2011 18:32, schrieb Tim McNamara:
>> There is a fourth note, double one of the notes in the triad, in the dim 
>> fingerings that is not in the score.  IME the fingering should match the 
>> score in cases where there is a score.
> I think this is the case with tablature, but considering the voicings on a 
> guitar, I'd expect a
> 
> -0-
> -1-
> -0-
> -2-
> -3-
> ---
> 
> when C is written, not a
> 
> ---
> ---
> -0-
> -2-
> -3-
> ---
> 
> (as a fret diagram, of course).
> 
> Just my 2ct ...

I think it depends on the purpose of the chart.  If aimed at hobbyist and/or 
performing musicians, they are likely to use their favorite fingerings and not 
necessarily what's written on the chord diagrams.  If it is teaching materials 
for students, which if IIRC was the stated purpose of the OP, then it seems to 
me that it would be desirable for the fingerings to exactly match the notes on 
the staff.

I don't use either fret diagrams or tablature, having been playing for 30+ 
years, but I recall using them early in my days learning to play.  I think that 
tab is so cumbersome to use that students are better off learning to read the 
music instead.  Chord diagrams can be quite helpful, though, early on.
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[bart deruyter]

Indeed, it would be much more clear if the notes should match the fingering,
but then the notes should be adjusted, not the fingering But then the basic
structure of a chord gets much less clear. It already was suggested both
could be shown in the presentation.

Chord diagrams are actually almost only used in popular music, which is,
when it's about guitar, mostly based on chords. These chords are basically
shortcuts, to grab them quickly. When it's about these predefined chords,
we're talking about these quickly to take chords. They almost never are only
the 3 notes of a chord, with this I mean, without doubled notes.

To be even more perfect, these notes should appear in the right order,
because we otherwise could have inversed chords, and these  are named
differently too (D/F# for example... 200232). Then almost all of the
suggested diminished chords will have to be changed, to a more difficult to
grab chord, including all those other chords we even haven't looked at.

If only fingerings are shown that are 100% theoretically correct, we end up
with a chord list nobody uses, and the purpose of the predefined guitar
fretboards is gone. Though extending the chordlist with these inversions
would be nice too ;-) .

That's why, I thought at least, these predefined chords are created, to make
it possible to quickly write them down in lilypond. When it's about
theoretically 100% perfect chords people still can create their own fret
diagrams.

Let's stick to the purpose of these predefined guitar fretboards.

Here an example of how it could change :


\include "predefined-guitar-fretboards.ly"
Chords = \chordmode {
e:m
}
notes =  {
\relative c

{
1| 
}
}
\score {

<<
\new ChordNames { \Chords }
  \new FretBoards { \Chords }
 \new Staff{
   \clef "treble_8" \time 4/4 \notes
  }
>>
}

http://www.bartart3d.be/


2011/2/6 Tim McNamara 

> There is a fourth note, double one of the notes in the triad, in the dim
> fingerings that is not in the score.  IME the fingering should match the
> score in cases where there is a score.  The dim chord is a triad so the
> fingering should contain only those three notes with none of them doubled;
> the dim7 is a tetrad and the fingerings correctly contain those four notes.
>
> This may be overly pedantic.
>
> On Feb 6, 2011, at 3:17 AM, bart.deruy...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > @ Carl Sorensen
> > Wow, looks great :-), though I'd play the D° as following : xx0131 .
> Doubling the first note of the chord is better then the third of it, when it
> is possible. And it's even easier to take.
> >
> > This is why I love open source, people really can contribute :-D.
> >
> > @ Tim McNamara
> > Could you specify what you mean with fourth fingering? As I see it, as
> far as I've seen the pdf, the fourth fingering is doubling one of the notes
> of the chord, which is perfectly valid, and not playing a fourth note in the
> chord, as the previous version did, which resulted in a 7th. A regular C
> chord doubles the c and e too, a regular E even has 3 e notes.
> >
> > Op schreef Carl Sorensen :
> > > I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You can download it at
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ttredirects=0&d=1" target="_blank">
> https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf?a
> > >
> > > ttredirects=0&d=1>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > or view it at
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please comment.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Carl
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Carl Sorensen]

Tim McNamara  bitstream.net> writes:
> 
> There is a fourth note, double one of the notes in the triad, in the dim
fingerings that is not in the score.  IME
> the fingering should match the score in cases where there is a score.

To make the fingering match the score, just don't use the predefined
diagrams.  Then the fretboard calculator will try to automatically calculate
a fingering.   For the dim chords, it generally works.  For the dim7, it
fails most of the time.

This is accomplished by using the commands \predefinedFretboardsOff

But it's very seldom that a guitar chord is voiced like a standard chord is
written in the score.

> The dim chord is a triad so the
> fingering should contain only those three notes with none of them doubled; the
dim7 is a tetrad and the
> fingerings correctly contain those four notes.
> 
> This may be overly pedantic.

I don't think it's overly pedantic; I think it's a misunderstanding of why
the example was created the way it was.  The notes in the score would
virtually *never* be the notes in the fretboard in standard usage.

In this demonstration, the score was put there just to indicate what was
meant by a dim and a dim7, since there is some evidence that jazz players
consider a dim on a lead sheet to imply a dim7.

There is an open issue, #1497 on the tracker, to have staff notation reflect
the predefined fretboard voicing if desired.

Thanks,

Carl


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[David Kastrup]

Tim McNamara  writes:

> I think it depends on the purpose of the chart.  If aimed at hobbyist
> and/or performing musicians, they are likely to use their favorite
> fingerings and not necessarily what's written on the chord diagrams.
> If it is teaching materials for students, which if IIRC was the stated
> purpose of the OP, then it seems to me that it would be desirable for
> the fingerings to exactly match the notes on the staff.

Chord diagrams don't reflect keyboard chords, but a reasonable execution
of the involved notes on the guitar, closed under transposition,
correctly reflecting the inversion only in its lowest note, and not
reflecting the octave or note multiplicity at all.

Keyboard chords (the normal Lilypond chords) are for execution by
keyboard.  If you instead want the notes to reflect the chord diagram,
you'll need the same mapping function applied to the chord diagrams
applied to the chords.

It would be nonsensical to imagine keyboard and guitar chords could
match by anything but accident.

Similar considerations hold for things like accordion chords: if you
want to print _them_ rather than the specified keyboard chords, you need
an additional translation stage catering to their separate realities.

One frequently sees keyboard music with chord names and chord diagrams
above: it makes perfect sense that the notes don't match the chord
diagrams there.

On the other side, one often sees tablature/chordname/note combinations
where the notes are to be played on the guitar.  Obviously, keyboard
chords don't make the least sense in there.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Marc Hohl]

Am 06.02.2011 18:32, schrieb Tim McNamara:

There is a fourth note, double one of the notes in the triad, in the dim 
fingerings that is not in the score.  IME the fingering should match the score 
in cases where there is a score.
I think this is the case with tablature, but considering the voicings on 
a guitar, I'd expect a


-0-
-1-
-0-
-2-
-3-
---

when C is written, not a

---
---
-0-
-2-
-3-
---

(as a fret diagram, of course).

Just my 2ct ...

Marc

The dim chord is a triad so the fingering should contain only those three notes 
with none of them doubled; the dim7 is a tetrad and the fingerings correctly 
contain those four notes.

This may be overly pedantic.

On Feb 6, 2011, at 3:17 AM, bart.deruy...@gmail.com wrote:


@ Carl Sorensen
Wow, looks great :-), though I'd play the D° as following : xx0131 . Doubling 
the first note of the chord is better then the third of it, when it is 
possible. And it's even easier to take.

This is why I love open source, people really can contribute :-D.

@ Tim McNamara
Could you specify what you mean with fourth fingering? As I see it, as far as 
I've seen the pdf, the fourth fingering is doubling one of the notes of the 
chord, which is perfectly valid, and not playing a fourth note in the chord, as 
the previous version did, which resulted in a 7th. A regular C chord doubles 
the c and e too, a regular E even has 3 e notes.

Op schreef Carl Sorensen:

I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.



You can download it at



ttredirects=0&d=1" 
target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf?a

ttredirects=0&d=1>



or view it at



https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf>



Please comment.



Thanks,



Carl





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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Tim McNamara]

There is a fourth note, double one of the notes in the triad, in the dim 
fingerings that is not in the score.  IME the fingering should match the score 
in cases where there is a score.  The dim chord is a triad so the fingering 
should contain only those three notes with none of them doubled; the dim7 is a 
tetrad and the fingerings correctly contain those four notes.  

This may be overly pedantic.

On Feb 6, 2011, at 3:17 AM, bart.deruy...@gmail.com wrote:

> @ Carl Sorensen
> Wow, looks great :-), though I'd play the D° as following : xx0131 . Doubling 
> the first note of the chord is better then the third of it, when it is 
> possible. And it's even easier to take.
> 
> This is why I love open source, people really can contribute :-D.
> 
> @ Tim McNamara
> Could you specify what you mean with fourth fingering? As I see it, as far as 
> I've seen the pdf, the fourth fingering is doubling one of the notes of the 
> chord, which is perfectly valid, and not playing a fourth note in the chord, 
> as the previous version did, which resulted in a 7th. A regular C chord 
> doubles the c and e too, a regular E even has 3 e notes.
> 
> Op schreef Carl Sorensen :
> > I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > You can download it at
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ttredirects=0&d=1" 
> > target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf?a
> > 
> > ttredirects=0&d=1>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > or view it at
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please comment.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > 
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> > 
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Re: Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[bart . deruyter]

@ Carl Sorensen
Wow, looks great :-), though I'd play the D° as following : xx0131 .  
Doubling the first note of the chord is better then the third of it, when  
it is possible. And it's even easier to take.


This is why I love open source, people really can contribute :-D.

@ Tim McNamara
Could you specify what you mean with fourth fingering? As I see it, as far  
as I've seen the pdf, the fourth fingering is doubling one of the notes of  
the chord, which is perfectly valid, and not playing a fourth note in the  
chord, as the previous version did, which resulted in a 7th. A regular C  
chord doubles the c and e too, a regular E even has 3 e notes.




grtz,
Bart

Op schreef Carl Sorensen :

I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.





You can download it at




ttredirects=0&d=1"  
target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf?a



ttredirects=0&d=1>





or view it at





https://sites.google.com/site/cdslilypond/docs/display-dim-fretboards.pdf>





Please comment.





Thanks,





Carl







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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Tim McNamara]

On Feb 5, 2011, at 9:49 PM, Carl Sorensen wrote:

> I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.
> 
> You can download it at
> 
>  ttredirects=0&d=1>
> 
> or view it at
> 
> 
> 
> Please comment.

The dim fingerings don't match the notes- the notes are a triad but the 
fingerings have a fourth note.  In many, if not most, cases that won't be 
signficant.  In some cases it will.
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Carl Sorensen]

I've put together a proposed set of dim and dim7 fretboards.

You can download it at



or view it at



Please comment.

Thanks,

Carl


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Re: [tablatures] Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Marc Hohl]

Am 03.02.2011 05:36, schrieb Carl Sorensen:

[...]

a) 1231xx or 1231x1

This is just Edim above up one fret, right?
This could be useful for higher chords:

f:dim 1231x1
fis:dim   2342x2
g:dim 3453x3
gis:dim   4564x4
a:dim 5675x5
bes:dim   6786x6
b:dim 7897x7



b) xx6464 or 4x6464

This fingering for the Fdim seems to be a very versatile fingering that I'd
expect to see used a lot.  I know that I'd personaly like it, because it's
relatively easy and consistent:

cis:dim   xx2020
d:dim xx3131
ees:dim   xx4242
e:dim xx5353
f:dim xx6464



c) x89A9x (A = 10)

This one is also useful

a:dim   x0121x
bes:dim x1232x
b:dim   x2343x
c:dim   x3454x
cis:dim x4565x
d:dim   x5676x
ees:dim x6787x
e:dim  x7898x
f:dim  x89a9x

This gives lots of opportunities for the table below.

I tend to favor diagrams with low fret numbers and muted strings at either
the top or the bottom, rather than in the middle.

Hello Carl, hello guitarists out there ;-)

sorry for joining so late in this discussion - I think that the voicings 
b) and c)

are very useful and sound good, whereas these mentioned in a) are way too
complicated to use, and if you use the short form with the lowest four 
strings,

they do not sound convincing.

Since I mostly have to use a dim7, I am not sure which voicing would be
more universal, though.

Regards,

Marc

Any recommendations?

Thanks,

Carl


c:dim"x;3-4;1-1;o;1-2;o;"
c:dim7   "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
cis:dim"x;4-4;2-3;1-1;2-2;1-1;"
cis:dim7   offset c:dim7 one fret
d:dim
d:dim7 "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
dis:dim"2-2;o;1-1;2-3;x;2-4;"
dis:dim7"x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
e:dim
e:dim7offset dis:dim7 one fret
f:dim
f:dim7"x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
fis:dim
fis:dim7same as dis:dim7
g:dim
g:dim7"x;x;5-2;6-4;5-3;3-1;"
gis:dim
gis:dim7   same as f:dim7
a:dim
a:dim7 same as ees:dim7
ais:dim
ais:dim7   offset ees:dim7 one fret
b:dim
b:dim7 same as d:dim7


Thanks,

Carl






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Re: [tablatures] Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Carl Sorensen]

On 2/2/11 11:10 AM, "Ronald Hochreiter"  wrote:

> Dear Carl, Bart, David,
> 
> don't know if my input is of any use, however - without fingering:
> 
> Ddim xx0131
> Edim 0120x0
> 
> Starting from the Fdim it get's a bit more complicated in standard
> tuning, see e.g. Fdim, where you'd have three possibilities:
> 
> a) 1231xx or 1231x1

This is just Edim above up one fret, right?
This could be useful for higher chords:

f:dim 1231x1
fis:dim   2342x2
g:dim 3453x3
gis:dim   4564x4
a:dim 5675x5
bes:dim   6786x6
b:dim 7897x7


> b) xx6464 or 4x6464

This fingering for the Fdim seems to be a very versatile fingering that I'd
expect to see used a lot.  I know that I'd personaly like it, because it's
relatively easy and consistent:

cis:dim   xx2020
d:dim xx3131
ees:dim   xx4242
e:dim xx5353
f:dim xx6464


> c) x89A9x (A = 10)

This one is also useful

a:dim   x0121x
bes:dim x1232x
b:dim   x2343x
c:dim   x3454x
cis:dim x4565x
d:dim   x5676x
ees:dim x6787x
e:dim  x7898x
f:dim  x89a9x

This gives lots of opportunities for the table below.

I tend to favor diagrams with low fret numbers and muted strings at either
the top or the bottom, rather than in the middle.

Any recommendations?

Thanks,

Carl

>> 
>> c:dim    "x;3-4;1-1;o;1-2;o;"
>> c:dim7   "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
>> cis:dim    "x;4-4;2-3;1-1;2-2;1-1;"
>> cis:dim7   offset c:dim7 one fret
>> d:dim
>> d:dim7     "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
>> dis:dim    "2-2;o;1-1;2-3;x;2-4;"
>> dis:dim7    "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
>> e:dim
>> e:dim7    offset dis:dim7 one fret
>> f:dim
>> f:dim7    "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
>> fis:dim
>> fis:dim7    same as dis:dim7
>> g:dim
>> g:dim7    "x;x;5-2;6-4;5-3;3-1;"
>> gis:dim
>> gis:dim7   same as f:dim7
>> a:dim
>> a:dim7     same as ees:dim7
>> ais:dim
>> ais:dim7   offset ees:dim7 one fret
>> b:dim
>> b:dim7     same as d:dim7
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Carl
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Carl Sorensen]

On 1/30/11 12:00 PM, "bart deruyter"  wrote:

> I looked through the tuxguitar fret diagrams, and found this the most
> interesting C#dim chordshape (I'm copying now from my own, extremely
> incomplete predefined-guitar-fretboards-fix.ly
>   file :
> 
> \addChordShape #'c:dim #guitar-tuning #"x;3-4;1-1;o;1-2;o;"
> \storePredefinedDiagram #default-fret-table \chordmode {cis:dim}
>     #guitar-tuning
>     #(offset-fret 1 (chord-shape 'c:dim guitar-tuning))
> 
> for D#dim I first wanted to offset :
> \addChordShape #'d:dim #guitar-tuning #"x;x;0;1-2;3-4;1-3;" one fret higher,
> but then the fingering of the first fret on the D-string doesn't show, so I
> created another chordshape :
> \addChordShape #'dis:dim #guitar-tuning #"x;x;1-1;2-2;4-4;2-3;"
> 
> Perhaps it can be offsetted with an aditional fingering notation in the
> diagram but my knowledge of lilypond still is somewhat limited, and right now
> I don't have the time to browse through the documentation for it. Got a book
> to write and at the moment I just have to modify the diagrams I need at the
> moment.
> 

As I got ready to implement this in the LilyPond distribution, it occurred
to me that this solves your problem, but not necessarily the fundamental
problem.

The fundamental problem right now is that the current diagrams have only a
dim chord, which might be either a dim7 or a dim5 chord (and since I entered
them, I can say with a surety that I don't know which chords are which).  In
my opinion it's clear that we should have both :dim and :dim7 chords in the
predefined diagram.

I'll be happy to take the responsibility of getting them in properly, but
I'd someone more qualified than me to give me the terse-format diagram
strings with fingering, based on the standard guitar tuning.

So, anybody willing to fill in the following table?

c:dim"x;3-4;1-1;o;1-2;o;"
c:dim7   "x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
cis:dim"x;4-4;2-3;1-1;2-2;1-1;"
cis:dim7   offset c:dim7 one fret
d:dim
d:dim7 "x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
dis:dim"2-2;o;1-1;2-3;x;2-4;"
dis:dim7"x;x;1-1;2-3;1-2;2-4;"
e:dim
e:dim7offset dis:dim7 one fret
f:dim
f:dim7"x;x;o;1-1;o;1-2;"
fis:dim
fis:dim7same as dis:dim7
g:dim
g:dim7"x;x;5-2;6-4;5-3;3-1;"
gis:dim
gis:dim7   same as f:dim7
a:dim
a:dim7 same as ees:dim7
ais:dim
ais:dim7   offset ees:dim7 one fret
b:dim
b:dim7 same as d:dim7


Thanks,

Carl


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Marc Hohl]

Am 30.01.2011 23:28, schrieb Tim McNamara:

[...]
It would also be wonderful to be able to stack extensions and alternative 
voicings:

D7(b5)

   (b9)
D7#5(b13)   but in one tall parentheses (there may be a way to do that already 
but I don't know how).

A bit off-topic, but the jazz font available at

http://sites.google.com/site/jpgzic/

does exactly what you describe. I prepared a patch for including this 
font and

its functionality into future releases.

Regards,

Marc


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Tim McNamara]

On Jan 30, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Colin Campbell wrote:

> There is a discussion on -bug about the display of chords for jazz
> musicians, essentially asking for simplification in the interests of
> readability.  Following on Bart's suggestion, is it feasible to create
> alternate display modes tied to a table, such that one could e.g.
> 
> \setDiaqgramInstrument ="guitar" 
> \setChordDisplay = "jazz"

Wow, that is a very interesting idea.  A lot of jazz musicians like the chord 
name spelled out (Cmin7b5) and others prefer it more symbolic (CØ).  It would 
be *really* cool to be able to just choose between nomenclature styles.

It would also be wonderful to be able to stack extensions and alternative 
voicings:

D7(b5)

  (b9)
D7#5(b13)   but in one tall parentheses (there may be a way to do that already 
but I don't know how).

Also, whomever added the "N.C." function to \chordmode when a rest is entered 
did a very nice thing IMHO.  I was very pleasantly surprised to see that.
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[bart deruyter]

I looked through the tuxguitar fret diagrams, and found this the most
interesting C#dim chordshape (I'm copying now from my own, extremely
incomplete predefined-guitar-fretboards-fix.ly file :

\addChordShape #'c:dim #guitar-tuning #"x;3-4;1-1;o;1-2;o;"
\storePredefinedDiagram #default-fret-table \chordmode {cis:dim}
#guitar-tuning
#(offset-fret 1 (chord-shape 'c:dim guitar-tuning))

for D#dim I first wanted to offset :
\addChordShape #'d:dim #guitar-tuning #"x;x;0;1-2;3-4;1-3;" one fret higher,
but then the fingering of the first fret on the D-string doesn't show, so I
created another chordshape :
\addChordShape #'dis:dim #guitar-tuning #"x;x;1-1;2-2;4-4;2-3;"

Perhaps it can be offsetted with an aditional fingering notation in the
diagram but my knowledge of lilypond still is somewhat limited, and right
now I don't have the time to browse through the documentation for it. Got a
book to write and at the moment I just have to modify the diagrams I need at
the moment.

Adding a display type, as Colin Campbell suggested, would be very nice
indeed, that might make it a complete system, but then all the diagrams need
to be reviewed, checked and double checked for each genre and instrument
where diagrams are used. Additional diagrams will have to be created too. No
problem for me of course :-). I want to help, if my current knowledge about
lilypond is good enough of course.

Perhaps, for the time being, it might be good to add a comment in the
documentation that the current diagrams are based on jazz conventions (so I
understand from the discussion here), and that the shown diagrams are not
the only possible versions. That will prevent future confusion. I can
imagine many beginning guitar student might think that the shown chords are
the only ones around, certainly because they are so well presented in
lilypond, while obviously this is not the case.
I don't know who to contact about this though.

grtz,

http://www.bartart3d.be/


2011/1/30 Carl Sorensen 

> On 1/30/11 2:45 AM, "bart deruyter"  wrote:
>
> > I can only  speak for guitarists, because I am a guitarist, classical
> > guitarist, and I'll definatly stick to the correct naming for the correct
> > chords, and I am now going to create my own version of this predefined
> guitar
> > diagrams list. If all goes well, and I can manage it, I want to upload it
> for
> > everyones use of course.
>
> Great!  But I don't imagine that you need to go to all the effort to
> recreate the list if you think that most chords are fine.  We've got enough
> feedback to indicate that the current diagram is in error for C#dim (and
> I'll assume D#dim as well).  What diagram would you recommend for these
> chords?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl
>
>
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Colin Campbell]

On Sun, 2011-01-30 at 11:43 +0100, bart deruyter wrote:
> Perhaps a solution would be like what is being done with midi, setting
> a midi instrument. That way automatically the correct diagram for this
> specific instrument can be shown.
> 
> e.g :
> 
> Chords = \chordmode {
> \setDiagramInstrument ="#guitar"
> cis:dim
> }
> notes =  {
> \relative c
> 
> {
> <  e g cis g' >2 | cis4 \mark "kl. terts" e| e \mark "kl. terts"  g
> \bar "|." 
> }
> }
> \new Score {
> <<
> 
> \new ChordNames { \Chords }
>   \new FretBoards { \Chords }
>  \new Staff
> {
> 
>\clef "treble_8" \time 2/4 \key d\major \notes
>   }
> >>
> }
> 
> 
> http://www.bartart3d.be/

There is a discussion on -bug about the display of chords for jazz
musicians, essentially asking for simplification in the interests of
readability.  Following on Bart's suggestion, is it feasible to create
alternate display modes tied to a table, such that one could e.g.

\setDiaqgramInstrument ="guitar" 
\setChordDisplay = "jazz"

I'm away for the day, but I'd bew quite happy raising an enhancement
issue around this.


-- 
He is winding the watch of his wit; by and by it will strike. - William
Shakespeare, The Tempest Act 2 scene 1 



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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Tim McNamara]

On Jan 30, 2011, at 3:45 AM, bart deruyter wrote:

> I can only  speak for guitarists, because I am a guitarist, classical 
> guitarist, and I'll definatly stick to the correct naming for the correct 
> chords, and I am now going to create my own version of this predefined guitar 
> diagrams list. If all goes well, and I can manage it, I want to upload it for 
> everyones use of course.
> 
> I still want to add that when browsing the chord list in tuxguitar there also 
> is a 'dim' and a dim7' chord difference, in which the dim shows the 
> theoretically correct dim chord, and the dim7 a dim7, as I suspected.
> 
> If I am correct, but I can't tell, guitar pro probably has the same as 
> tuxguitar, since tuxguitar presents itself as a free alternative for it. But 
> that needs to be checked of course. I still wonder though, why in the 
> documentation, a correct dim chord is shown in the score, while a dim7 is 
> shown as the fret diagram. That really needs to be changed, because it is 
> simply technically wrong.
> 
> Another question, as a jazz guitarist, what name is given to a theoretically 
> correct diminished chord, I mean, without the 7?

In jazz the bb7 is generally assumed if the chord is written with "dim" except 
sometimes in horn arrangements.  If the chord functions as a VII then it may be 
written as a minb5 but even there most jazz musicians will assume the 7th is 
present and so will play a min7b5.

The use of triads in jazz is limited except in polychords and hexatonic scales, 
and those aren't used that often.  Triads are generally considered too "plain 
vanilla" and uninteresting.  To a great extent the harmonic signature of jazz 
is in the extensions applied to chords:  b9, 9, #9, 11, #11, b13, 13 in 
particular.
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Carl Sorensen]

On 1/30/11 1:54 AM, "David Kastrup"  wrote:

> So basically we need a mechanism that can take a bunch of keyboard
> chords and route them through predefined chord set translator for a
> particular instrument, be that an accordion (which does not bother all
> too much with fret diagrams actually, so this translation should not be
> tied to them all too much) or a guitar.

We currently have that functionality.  The issue here is not a missing
mechanism, but an incorrect mechanism.

Thanks,

Carl


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Carl Sorensen]

On 1/30/11 2:45 AM, "bart deruyter"  wrote:

> I can only  speak for guitarists, because I am a guitarist, classical
> guitarist, and I'll definatly stick to the correct naming for the correct
> chords, and I am now going to create my own version of this predefined guitar
> diagrams list. If all goes well, and I can manage it, I want to upload it for
> everyones use of course.

Great!  But I don't imagine that you need to go to all the effort to
recreate the list if you think that most chords are fine.  We've got enough
feedback to indicate that the current diagram is in error for C#dim (and
I'll assume D#dim as well).  What diagram would you recommend for these
chords?

Thanks,

Carl


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[bart deruyter]

Perhaps a solution would be like what is being done with midi, setting a
midi instrument. That way automatically the correct diagram for this
specific instrument can be shown.

e.g :

Chords = \chordmode {
\setDiagramInstrument ="#guitar"
cis:dim
}
notes =  {
\relative c

{
<  e g cis g' >2 | cis4 \mark "kl. terts" e| e \mark "kl. terts"  g \bar
"|."
}
}
\new Score {
<<

\new ChordNames { \Chords }
  \new FretBoards { \Chords }
 \new Staff
{

   \clef "treble_8" \time 2/4 \key d\major \notes
  }
>>
}


http://www.bartart3d.be/


2011/1/30 David Kastrup 

> Patrick Schmidt  writes:
>
> > Am 30.01.2011 um 10:45 schrieb bart deruyter:
> >
> > I can only  speak for guitarists, because I am a guitarist,
> > classical guitarist, and I'll definatly stick to the correct
> > naming for the correct chords, and I am now going to create my own
> > version of this predefined guitar diagrams list. If all goes well,
> > and I can manage it, I want to upload it for everyones use of
> > course.
> >
> > This has been discussed on the tablature list and I'm working on a
> > solution. There are several problems to solve. For example you can't
> > define two different chord shapes for the same chord in one list.
>
> As I mentioned: the task "map keyboard chords in a normal score to
> different chords in a normal score" is necessary for other instruments
> not concerned with string diagrams at all.
>
> So we should have a mapping infrastructure independent from string
> diagrams, and have a function converting a string diagram into an
> appropriate string-agnostic data structure for the mapping.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
>
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[David Kastrup]

Patrick Schmidt  writes:

> Am 30.01.2011 um 10:45 schrieb bart deruyter:
>
> I can only  speak for guitarists, because I am a guitarist,
> classical guitarist, and I'll definatly stick to the correct
> naming for the correct chords, and I am now going to create my own
> version of this predefined guitar diagrams list. If all goes well,
> and I can manage it, I want to upload it for everyones use of
> course.
> 
> This has been discussed on the tablature list and I'm working on a
> solution. There are several problems to solve. For example you can't
> define two different chord shapes for the same chord in one list.

As I mentioned: the task "map keyboard chords in a normal score to
different chords in a normal score" is necessary for other instruments
not concerned with string diagrams at all.

So we should have a mapping infrastructure independent from string
diagrams, and have a function converting a string diagram into an
appropriate string-agnostic data structure for the mapping.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Patrick Schmidt]

Am 30.01.2011 um 10:45 schrieb bart deruyter:

I can only  speak for guitarists, because I am a guitarist,  
classical guitarist, and I'll definatly stick to the correct naming  
for the correct chords, and I am now going to create my own version  
of this predefined guitar diagrams list. If all goes well, and I  
can manage it, I want to upload it for everyones use of course.
This has been discussed on the tablature list and I'm working on a  
solution. There are several problems to solve. For example you can't  
define two different chord shapes for the same chord in one list. So  
I started to define one diagram list for each chord shape (CAGED)  
each containing loads of chords. Right now I don't have time to  
continue this work but if you are interested I can send it to you off- 
list. (The files are too large for the mailing list).


HTH
patrick


I still want to add that when browsing the chord list in tuxguitar  
there also is a 'dim' and a dim7' chord difference, in which the  
dim shows the theoretically correct dim chord, and the dim7 a dim7,  
as I suspected.


If I am correct, but I can't tell, guitar pro probably has the same  
as tuxguitar, since tuxguitar presents itself as a free alternative  
for it. But that needs to be checked of course. I still wonder  
though, why in the documentation, a correct dim chord is shown in  
the score, while a dim7 is shown as the fret diagram. That really  
needs to be changed, because it is simply technically wrong.


Another question, as a jazz guitarist, what name is given to a  
theoretically correct diminished chord, I mean, without the 7?


grtz,
Bart
http://www.bartart3d.be/


2011/1/30 David Kastrup 
Carl Sorensen  writes:

> The source for the chord is this:
>
> http://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/Cxdim.asp
>
> But my "The Gig Bag Book of Picture Chords for all Guitarists" lists
> that same chord as C#dim7, but also says that dim and dim7 are
> alternate names for the same chord.
>
> According to Wikpedia, "In most sheet music books, Cdim or C0  
denotes

> a diminished seventh chord with root C. and Cm-5 or Cmb5 denotes a
> diminished triad with root C.  However, in some modern jazz books  
and

> some music theory literature, Cdim or C0 denotes a diminished tirad,
> while Cdim7 or C07 denotes a diminished seventh chord."
>
> So at least from these references, there is a difference of opinion
> about this notation.
>
> If we can get agreement from the guitarists on the list about  
what is

> right, we'll fix it to what is agreed.

I think we should include accordionists in this discussion...
Accordions build their chords from notes of a fixed octave (never mind
inversions, there are separate bass buttons establishing the bass  
tone,

usually by alternating with the chord button).  It has "seventh" and
"diminuished" chords that are notable for not including a fifth.  So
indeed C#dim would be C# E Bb on an accordion.

Accordion chords have a number of different styles of notation.   
One is
just spelling out the actual pitches.  And that's basically what we  
want

to be doing in the case of guitar chord diagrams/tabulature as well.
There is no point in spelling out a keyboard chord in tabulature or
specific guitar notes.

But there is a point in writing _keyboard_ chords in notes but putting
chord diagrams for guitar above.

So basically we need a mechanism that can take a bunch of keyboard
chords and route them through predefined chord set translator for a
particular instrument, be that an accordion (which does not bother all
too much with fret diagrams actually, so this translation should  
not be

tied to them all too much) or a guitar.

--
David Kastrup


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[bart deruyter]

I can only  speak for guitarists, because I am a guitarist, classical
guitarist, and I'll definatly stick to the correct naming for the correct
chords, and I am now going to create my own version of this predefined
guitar diagrams list. If all goes well, and I can manage it, I want to
upload it for everyones use of course.

I still want to add that when browsing the chord list in tuxguitar there
also is a 'dim' and a dim7' chord difference, in which the dim shows the
theoretically correct dim chord, and the dim7 a dim7, as I suspected.

If I am correct, but I can't tell, guitar pro probably has the same as
tuxguitar, since tuxguitar presents itself as a free alternative for it. But
that needs to be checked of course. I still wonder though, why in the
documentation, a correct dim chord is shown in the score, while a dim7 is
shown as the fret diagram. That really needs to be changed, because it is
simply technically wrong.

Another question, as a jazz guitarist, what name is given to a theoretically
correct diminished chord, I mean, without the 7?

grtz,
Bart
http://www.bartart3d.be/


2011/1/30 David Kastrup 

> Carl Sorensen  writes:
>
> > The source for the chord is this:
> >
> > http://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/Cxdim.asp
> >
> > But my "The Gig Bag Book of Picture Chords for all Guitarists" lists
> > that same chord as C#dim7, but also says that dim and dim7 are
> > alternate names for the same chord.
> >
> > According to Wikpedia, "In most sheet music books, Cdim or C0 denotes
> > a diminished seventh chord with root C. and Cm-5 or Cmb5 denotes a
> > diminished triad with root C.  However, in some modern jazz books and
> > some music theory literature, Cdim or C0 denotes a diminished tirad,
> > while Cdim7 or C07 denotes a diminished seventh chord."
> >
> > So at least from these references, there is a difference of opinion
> > about this notation.
> >
> > If we can get agreement from the guitarists on the list about what is
> > right, we'll fix it to what is agreed.
>
> I think we should include accordionists in this discussion...
> Accordions build their chords from notes of a fixed octave (never mind
> inversions, there are separate bass buttons establishing the bass tone,
> usually by alternating with the chord button).  It has "seventh" and
> "diminuished" chords that are notable for not including a fifth.  So
> indeed C#dim would be C# E Bb on an accordion.
>
> Accordion chords have a number of different styles of notation.  One is
> just spelling out the actual pitches.  And that's basically what we want
> to be doing in the case of guitar chord diagrams/tabulature as well.
> There is no point in spelling out a keyboard chord in tabulature or
> specific guitar notes.
>
> But there is a point in writing _keyboard_ chords in notes but putting
> chord diagrams for guitar above.
>
> So basically we need a mechanism that can take a bunch of keyboard
> chords and route them through predefined chord set translator for a
> particular instrument, be that an accordion (which does not bother all
> too much with fret diagrams actually, so this translation should not be
> tied to them all too much) or a guitar.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
>
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[David Kastrup]

Carl Sorensen  writes:

> The source for the chord is this:
>
> http://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/Cxdim.asp
>
> But my "The Gig Bag Book of Picture Chords for all Guitarists" lists
> that same chord as C#dim7, but also says that dim and dim7 are
> alternate names for the same chord.
>
> According to Wikpedia, "In most sheet music books, Cdim or C0 denotes
> a diminished seventh chord with root C. and Cm-5 or Cmb5 denotes a
> diminished triad with root C.  However, in some modern jazz books and
> some music theory literature, Cdim or C0 denotes a diminished tirad,
> while Cdim7 or C07 denotes a diminished seventh chord."
>
> So at least from these references, there is a difference of opinion
> about this notation.
>
> If we can get agreement from the guitarists on the list about what is
> right, we'll fix it to what is agreed.

I think we should include accordionists in this discussion...
Accordions build their chords from notes of a fixed octave (never mind
inversions, there are separate bass buttons establishing the bass tone,
usually by alternating with the chord button).  It has "seventh" and
"diminuished" chords that are notable for not including a fifth.  So
indeed C#dim would be C# E Bb on an accordion.

Accordion chords have a number of different styles of notation.  One is
just spelling out the actual pitches.  And that's basically what we want
to be doing in the case of guitar chord diagrams/tabulature as well.
There is no point in spelling out a keyboard chord in tabulature or
specific guitar notes.

But there is a point in writing _keyboard_ chords in notes but putting
chord diagrams for guitar above.

So basically we need a mechanism that can take a bunch of keyboard
chords and route them through predefined chord set translator for a
particular instrument, be that an accordion (which does not bother all
too much with fret diagrams actually, so this translation should not be
tied to them all too much) or a guitar.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Carl Sorensen]

On 1/29/11 1:31 PM, "Michael Ellis"  wrote:

> As long as I'm on my soapbox :-),  it occurs to me that it would be a
> service to any student guitarist looking at that chart if the staff
> notation showed the actual voicing of the chords, perhaps in
> parentheses, alongside the root position close voicings, e.g
> 
> g,  c  e  bes c' e'
> 
> for the C7 chord.

This has been discussed in the past on the tablatures list, and has now been
formally added as an issue.



Thanks for the reminder!

Carl


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Carl Sorensen]

On 1/29/11 12:02 PM, "bart deruyter"  wrote:

> Hi all, 
> 
> I've noticed something strange in the predefined chord diagrams for guitar.
> While writing on my book for teaching guitar, I noticed the chord C#
> diminished is weird to say at the least. The fret diagram is very wrong I'm
> afraid :
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/notation/predefined-fretboard-diag
> rams
> To be more precise, it shows the use of the third fret on the g-string. Last
> time I checked, this is A# or Bb. What does this do in C# diminished? Or am I
> so very mistaken?

The source for the chord is this:

http://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/Cxdim.asp

But my "The Gig Bag Book of Picture Chords for all Guitarists" lists that
same chord as C#dim7, but also says that dim and dim7 are alternate names
for the same chord.

According to Wikpedia, "In most sheet music books, Cdim or C0 denotes a
diminished seventh chord with root C. and Cm-5 or Cmb5 denotes a diminished
triad with root C.  However, in some modern jazz books and some music theory
literature, Cdim or C0 denotes a diminished tirad, while Cdim7 or C07
denotes a diminished seventh chord."

So at least from these references, there is a difference of opinion about
this notation.

If we can get agreement from the guitarists on the list about what is right,
we'll fix it to what is agreed.

> 
> What should I do to fix this in my code?

Use \storePredefinedDiagram to store the diagram that you prefer for C#:dim.
See the notation reference for more information.

HTH,

Carl



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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Tim McNamara]

On Jan 29, 2011, at 1:02 PM, bart deruyter wrote:

> I've noticed something strange in the predefined chord diagrams for guitar. 
> While writing on my book for teaching guitar, I noticed the chord C# 
> diminished is weird to say at the least. The fret diagram is very wrong I'm 
> afraid :
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/notation/predefined-fretboard-diagrams
> To be more precise, it shows the use of the third fret on the g-string. Last 
> time I checked, this is A# or Bb. What does this do in C# diminished? Or am I 
> so very mistaken?

Well, that is the diminished 7th in a C# dim 7:  root b3 b5 bb7 which works out 
to C# E G Bb.  So having it there is technically correct if you are specifying 
a dim7 chord.  If that's not the chord you want (e.g., you want a diminished 
triad of C# E G) then you don't want it.

In jazz fingerings for dim chords the bb7 is generally included as a matter of 
course.  Other styles of music may not do the same.

You might try calling it a C# min b5 chord to get the notes you want.  
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Michael Ellis]

As long as I'm on my soapbox :-),  it occurs to me that it would be a
service to any student guitarist looking at that chart if the staff
notation showed the actual voicing of the chords, perhaps in
parentheses, alongside the root position close voicings, e.g

g,  c  e  bes c' e'

for the C7 chord.

Cheers,
Mike

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 3:19 PM, bart deruyter  wrote:
> Would be very nice to add these too indeed :-).
> So, in other words, I'll have to create my own fretboards to be able to
> continue for now?
>
> grtz,
> Bart
> http://www.bartart3d.be/
>
>
> 2011/1/29 Michael Ellis 
>>
>> I agree.  Changing the diagrams to match the names and notation will
>> make it right.  For completeness, it might be nice to add the °7
>> forms.  OTOH, there are an awful lot of fakebooks out there that use °
>> when they really intend °7.
>> Cheers,
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 3:07 PM, bart deruyter 
>> wrote:
>> > The score is correct, the diagrams are wrong, of all diminished chords I
>> > think. C diminished and D diminished are wrong too, the diagrams at
>> > least.
>
>

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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[bart deruyter]

The score is correct, the diagrams are wrong, of all diminished chords I
think. C diminished and D diminished are wrong too, the diagrams at least.

http://www.bartart3d.be/


2011/1/29 Michael Ellis 

> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 2:57 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
> >
> > Uh, why wouldn't it be in C# diminuished?  It's a minor third below C#,
> > or three minor thirds above it.
> >
> >> Or am I so very mistaken?
> >>
> >> What should I do to fix this in my code?
> >
> > What's to fix?
>
> Just looked at the doc.  Bart's right.  The staff shows C# E G.
> Either the diagram or the staff notation should be changed.  FWIW,
> this is one of those cases where jazz chord naming is often sloppy.
> Most classical theory books use the degree symbol alone to indicate a
> diminished triad and add the numeral seven when a fully-diminished 7th
> is to be indicated.
>
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Michael Ellis]

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 2:57 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>
> Uh, why wouldn't it be in C# diminuished?  It's a minor third below C#,
> or three minor thirds above it.
>
>> Or am I so very mistaken?
>>
>> What should I do to fix this in my code?
>
> What's to fix?

Just looked at the doc.  Bart's right.  The staff shows C# E G.
Either the diagram or the staff notation should be changed.  FWIW,
this is one of those cases where jazz chord naming is often sloppy.
Most classical theory books use the degree symbol alone to indicate a
diminished triad and add the numeral seven when a fully-diminished 7th
is to be indicated.

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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[bart deruyter]

What's to fix? the predefined fretdiagram of C#° shows a different chord,
namely C#dim7, according to Michael Ellis...

I need C#°,  erroneous predefined chord diagrams need to be fixed of course.


http://www.bartart3d.be/


2011/1/29 David Kastrup 

> bart deruyter  writes:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've noticed something strange in the predefined chord diagrams for
> > guitar. While writing on my book for teaching guitar, I noticed the
> > chord C# diminished is weird to say at the least. The fret diagram is
> > very wrong I'm afraid :
> > http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/notation/predefined-
> > fretboard-diagrams
> > To be more precise, it shows the use of the third fret on the g-
> > string. Last time I checked, this is A# or Bb. What does this do in C#
> > diminished?
>
> Uh, why wouldn't it be in C# diminuished?  It's a minor third below C#,
> or three minor thirds above it.
>
> > Or am I so very mistaken?
> >
> > What should I do to fix this in my code?
>
> What's to fix?
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
>
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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[David Kastrup]

bart deruyter  writes:

> Hi all, 
>
> I've noticed something strange in the predefined chord diagrams for
> guitar. While writing on my book for teaching guitar, I noticed the
> chord C# diminished is weird to say at the least. The fret diagram is
> very wrong I'm afraid :
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/notation/predefined-
> fretboard-diagrams
> To be more precise, it shows the use of the third fret on the g-
> string. Last time I checked, this is A# or Bb. What does this do in C#
> diminished?

Uh, why wouldn't it be in C# diminuished?  It's a minor third below C#,
or three minor thirds above it.

> Or am I so very mistaken?
>
> What should I do to fix this in my code?

What's to fix?

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: error in predefined chord diagram?

[Michael Ellis]

Hi Bart,
Sounds like it's giving you a C#dim7, typically spelled C# E G A# .
Cheers,
Mike



On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 2:02 PM, bart deruyter  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed something strange in the predefined chord diagrams for guitar.
> While writing on my book for teaching guitar, I noticed the chord C#
> diminished is weird to say at the least. The fret diagram is very wrong I'm
> afraid :
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/notation/predefined-fretboard-diagrams
> To be more precise, it shows the use of the third fret on the g-string. Last
> time I checked, this is A# or Bb. What does this do in C# diminished? Or am
> I so very mistaken?
>
> What should I do to fix this in my code?
>
> Grtz,
> Bart
> http://www.bartart3d.be/
>
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> lilypond-user@gnu.org
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>
>

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