Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Ali Cuota]

Dear Werner, and Dear all,

I dont want to set NDT for new compositions. I just want to enjoy
diversity of engraving, with their different valid points. And surely
we will continue to play barock and polypnohic music for many years.

In the mean time, I had and deeper and serious look to Scheme and
Python. This is nothing for me :-(
Nevertheless, I have questions, who knows...

1 - in the User-manual of Lilypond, chapter 1.1, there is a script for
"Ez_numbers_engraver" This is interesting of course, but I cant figure
out how to modify it for letters (all would be easier with a table).

2 - in usr/schare/lilypod/current/tablature.scm I miss many things,
one of them is: where is it declared that the lines representing the
strings are to be drawn?

3 - the concept of jianpu is nice. But I also swim in python-code.

4 - chapter 2.2.77 in internals refers to printing noteHead in words,
but here too, :-/

Well these are my first questions, maybe somebody wants to help... But
if I go ths way of DIY, I will have many questions. Probably too much
questions.

Francois 

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2017-12-29 12:44 GMT-05:00, Werner LEMBERG :
>>> ???  Are you really trying to reactivate Neue Deutsche
>>> Orgeltabulatur, three hundred years after it was abandonded?
>>
>> There can be multiple reasons why one would do that: [...]
>
> All of these are valid points.  However, it seems to me that he wants
> to actually *add* features to this tablature, which I consider three
> hundred years too late.  Similar to figured bass, Neue Deutsche
> Orgeltabulatur can't handle more elaborated music, so there were
> really good reasons to change to normal, modern notation.
>
>
> Werner
>
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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> ???  Are you really trying to reactivate Neue Deutsche
>> Orgeltabulatur, three hundred years after it was abandonded?
> 
> There can be multiple reasons why one would do that: [...]

All of these are valid points.  However, it seems to me that he wants
to actually *add* features to this tablature, which I consider three
hundred years too late.  Similar to figured bass, Neue Deutsche
Orgeltabulatur can't handle more elaborated music, so there were
really good reasons to change to normal, modern notation.


Werner

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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Ali Cuota]

Dear Karl, Werner and All,

Thanks Karl these are two points.

Also stretching the score is really a poit in concert (not mentionned
that another aproach of the matter is recommended from pedagogists). I
had a try with OO-calc and OO-writer, the score reduces to half of
traditional score, and more is even possible. This is huge. Vierne's
Toccata has 8 pages, these are 3 turns, quite difficult to manage. in
TAB this would be 4 letter-pages, that fits on the musik stand. No
turns.
Of course a musician can and should learn by heart, but the stressing
life doesnt allow to learn everything by heart. And I dont want to
work anymore with assistants.

For programming, I am definitely not the man. Thats why I would pay.

Anyway, the end of the year is at the door, so I wish all a good start in 2018.

Francois 

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2017-12-29 7:35 GMT-05:00, k...@aspodata.se :
> Werner:
> ...
>> ???  Are you really trying to reactivate Neue Deutsche Orgeltabulatur,
>> three hundred years after it was abandonded?
>
> There can be multiple reasons why one would do that:
>
> . the somewhat academic point in being able to do that
>
> . when transcribing things I've found that that is easier if I first
> can get something that looks similar with the piece I'm transcribing,
> and then convert it into something a performer would like
>
> . the notation suited the performers at that time (1550-1700), so
> there might be some value in beeing able to understand why they used it
> and beeing able to use it oneself, and for that end, beeing able to
> make a cleaner version of a source tabulature
>
> Regards,
> /Karl Hammar
>
> ---
> Aspö Data
> Lilla Aspö 148
> S-742 94 Östhammar
> Sweden
> +46 173 140 57
>
>
>
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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[karl]

Werner:
...
> ???  Are you really trying to reactivate Neue Deutsche Orgeltabulatur,
> three hundred years after it was abandonded?

There can be multiple reasons why one would do that:

. the somewhat academic point in being able to do that

. when transcribing things I've found that that is easier if I first
can get something that looks similar with the piece I'm transcribing,
and then convert it into something a performer would like

. the notation suited the performers at that time (1550-1700), so
there might be some value in beeing able to understand why they used it
and beeing able to use it oneself, and for that end, beeing able to
make a cleaner version of a source tabulature

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
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Lilla Asp?? 148
S-742 94 ??sthammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57



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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Werner LEMBERG]

> sadly, you are right. I had a closer look at what I thought to be an
> ''es'' but is a ''dis'',
> 
> Nevertheless, in my idea it should be the user who would choose
> alternatives (historical (only sharps and b), my-way (flats, sharps
> and even double-falts and d-sharps), and alternative.

???  Are you really trying to reactivate Neue Deutsche Orgeltabulatur,
three hundred years after it was abandonded?

> I see python is used for jianpu, but I cant determine what it does
> (what it uses from lily for the output, and if it reads from a
> standard ly-file)
> 
> Is it better I serch a scheme programmer or a python-man?

I can't answer this, sorry, but I guess that everything can be done in
Scheme – if you are skilled enough.


Werner
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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Ali Cuota]

Dear Werner,

sadly, you are right. I had a closer look at what I thought to be an
''es'' but is a ''dis'',

Nevertheless, in my idea it should be the user who would choose
alternatives (historical (only sharps and b), my-way (flats, sharps
and even double-falts and d-sharps), and alternative.

I see python is used for jianpu, but I cant determine what it does
(what it uses from lily for the output, and if it reads from a
standard ly-file)

Is it better I serch a scheme programmer or a python-man?

Francois

2017-12-27 15:00 GMT-05:00, Werner LEMBERG :
>
>> About the flat in the new german TAB,
>
> AFAIK there doesn't exist a flat at all in the Neue Deutsche
> Orgeltabulatur.
>
>> I would be pleased if you confirm me, or not: in Scheidemann's
>> Judentanz, I read the (recurrent) es as it is and not as a s.
>
> I don't understand this sentence.  Please rephrase and use quotes to
> properly make a distinction between note names and normal text!
>
>> For, if this is how I read, the es could be the hook toward left
>> (the is anyway toward right).
>
> Please provide a small image with marks that show what you mean.
> Looking into the scan of the autograph, I only see alterations one
> semitone up (i.e., a sharp).
>
>
> Werner
>

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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Werner LEMBERG]

> About the flat in the new german TAB,

AFAIK there doesn't exist a flat at all in the Neue Deutsche
Orgeltabulatur.

> I would be pleased if you confirm me, or not: in Scheidemann's
> Judentanz, I read the (recurrent) es as it is and not as a s.

I don't understand this sentence.  Please rephrase and use quotes to
properly make a distinction between note names and normal text!

> For, if this is how I read, the es could be the hook toward left
> (the is anyway toward right).

Please provide a small image with marks that show what you mean.
Looking into the scan of the autograph, I only see alterations one
semitone up (i.e., a sharp).


Werner

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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Ali Cuota]

Hello Werner and All,

I have readen your article. Many thanks anyway. I didnt thought that
the TAB was the standard notation before our actual system.
About the flat in the new german TAB, I would be pleased if you
confirm me, or not: in Scheidemann's Judentanz, I read the (recurrent)
es as it is and not as a s. Although german paleology is not my
strength, I am waiting to your confirmation.
For, if this is how I read, the es could be the hook toward left (the
is anyway toward right).

greetings

Francois

2017-12-24 15:00 GMT-05:00, Ali Cuota :
> Hello All, Werner and Malte,
>
> For me, one of the plus point of this TAB is to read (I already use it
> writing, by hand, and practice actually in old printed TABs, I am not
> far enough for the handwritten Tabs) like Pachelbel, Bruhns,
> Buxtehude, the Bach's etc. Maybe I will learn something new about
> "thinking" music...
> Another point is stretching (quite much) scores. On the music stand
> during concerts it makes a big difference.
> And last but not least, I would be interested to test it on my
> singing-students, since the higher-lower pitches are picturally
> reflected in this TAB.
> (Also for handwriting music , drawing the lines is not necessary,
> whitch is a good point, but its OT. I am interested in am include in
> order to use the repesotories of *.ly files, of course.)
>
> The need of a font is clear. I would be quite happy with an historical
> font (with the specials of this tab, and a modernized font. I would
> care for it.
>
> What I definitely cant do is programming more than 2 or 3 lines. Thats
> why I need help. I suppose this would be interesting to have the
> output in lilypond, in order to mix pentagram-music and TAB, for
> pedagogic uses for examples.
>
> Jianpu seems to go this way, but I would let the programmer choose how
> he wants to process the whole topic.
>
> Francois
>
> 2017-12-24 5:45 GMT-05:00, Werner LEMBERG :
>>
 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabulatur#Neue_deutsche_Orgeltabulatur
>>>
>>> Hi, I would be interested maybe; coincidentally I’m just now reading
>>> Willi Apel’s book on notation and the next chapter I’ll read is
>>> about the old and the new German organ tab.
>>
>> It's an interesting topic indeed – even J.S. Bach has used Neue
>> Deutsche Orgeltabulatur.  As an example, see page 300 in the following
>> article.
>>
>>   https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb37-3/tb117lemberg.pdf
>>
>>
>> Werner
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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabulatur#Neue_deutsche_Orgeltabulatur
> 
> Hi, I would be interested maybe; coincidentally I’m just now reading
> Willi Apel’s book on notation and the next chapter I’ll read is
> about the old and the new German organ tab.

It's an interesting topic indeed – even J.S. Bach has used Neue
Deutsche Orgeltabulatur.  As an example, see page 300 in the following
article.

  https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb37-3/tb117lemberg.pdf


Werner
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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Malte Meyn]

Am 23.12.2017 um 20:38 schrieb Ali Cuota:

Excuse me, the New German Tabulatur is my topic.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabulatur#Neue_deutsche_Orgeltabulatur


Hi, I would be interested maybe; coincidentally I’m just now reading 
Willi Apel’s book on notation and the next chapter I’ll read is about 
the old and the new German organ tab.


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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Werner LEMBERG]

>>> I would like to use the keyboard TAB
>>> (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabulatur) as alternative to "normal"
>>> notation.
>>
>> Which one?  There are so many tablutures.  Please give an example
>> (i.e., the `normal' notation and the tablature version).
>
> Excuse me, the New German Tabulatur is my topic.
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabulatur#Neue_deutsche_Orgeltabulatur

OK.  Lilypond doesn't support this.  What *could* be used as a
starting point is (external) support for jianpu; cf. the thread
starting with

  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-08/msg00395.html

For proper rendering you have to create a special Fraktur font that
contains letters with `Niederstriche' to indicate an upward alteration
by a semitone, together with the other special symbols used in the
Neue Deutsche Orgeltabulatur – AFAICS this is not covered by SMUFL.

  https://w3c.github.io/smufl/gitbook/

Unfortunately, I can't help further.


Werner
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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Ali Cuota]

Hallo Werner,

Excuse me, the New German Tabulatur is my topic.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabulatur#Neue_deutsche_Orgeltabulatur

Danke

Francois, 

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2017-12-23 14:30 GMT-05:00, Werner LEMBERG :
>
>> I would like to use the keyboard TAB
>> (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabulatur) as alternative to "normal"
>> notation.
>
> Which one?  There are so many tablutures.  Please give an example
> (i.e., the `normal' notation and the tablature version).
>
>
> Werner
>

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Re: getting paid for an include (I offer)

[Werner LEMBERG]

> I would like to use the keyboard TAB
> (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabulatur) as alternative to "normal"
> notation.

Which one?  There are so many tablutures.  Please give an example
(i.e., the `normal' notation and the tablature version).


Werner

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