Re: GUI for selecting text and music fonts (was: Sample document to show music fonts)

[Noeck]

Hi Urs,

this looks really great.

I realized that I have different preferences whether I have to choose a
text font for a paragraph of text or for some words like "cresc." or
"dim." in a score. Therefore, I like the idea of showing the text font
inside a score.

I agree that a list of fonts is better than a drop-down box. How about
sth like:

|text font|example   |
|-|--|
|Font1| preview  |
|Font2| image|
|...  |  |
|-|--|

where Font1 and Font2 is already written using the font. (Optionally
with another column for music fonts – but that’s probably too much for
one dialog.)
The preview image should contain titling, numbers (barnumbers, tuplet
numbers etc.), lyrics and maybe extra text blocks like stanzas.

Another thought (which is not necessary for first shot but maybe later):
How about caching the images? Then the user could quickly switch between
fonts without interruption by compiling the score.
For the final decision, some toggle function would be nice (like
elbsound does) – either on click or on mouse-over – to quickly see the
difference between the last two choices.

Once again: a very nice thing!

Best,
Joram


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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Br. Samuel Springuel]

On 9/21/18 12:31 PM, Urs Liska wrote:

Slurs and ties are not part of the music font and therefore look the
 same, regardless of the font.


Good to know.  I guess then they ought to be left out of the preview.


I think the fact that it'd be vocal music would be different enough.
Especially the lyrics idea would be good.


I'll see if I can't schedule some time into my weekend for this then.
--
✝✝
Br. Samuel, OSB
(R. Padraic Springuel)
St. Anselm’s Abbey
4501 South Dakota Ave, NE
Washington, DC, 20017
202-269-2300
(c) 202-853-7036

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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GUI for selecting text and music fonts (was: Sample document to show music fonts)

[Urs Liska]

Hijacking my own thread to keep the reference ...

By now I'm quite happy about the interface to show sample documents to 
demonstrate music fonts in Frescobaldi (for reference I copy the link to 
https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/pull/1075#issuecomment-423532714 
(with a screencast) from a previous post).


The next step will be to

a) add the ability to select three text fonts too and use them in the 
display, and


b) provide an interface to generating the font selection LilyPond code 
for insertion in the current document. (As a follow-up step the font 
dialog will also be made available from the Score Wizard)


Now I'm a bit insecure how to organize the GUI, and I think it would be 
good to have some feedback before continuing.


Right now I have a dialog with two tabs for *text* (screenshot attached) 
and for *music* (see other posts in this thread).


 * The text tab lists all available fonts, displays a sample and allows
   to quickly find stuff through incremental filtering.
 * The music tab lists the available music fonts (for the given
   LilyPond version) and engraves various preview scores.

What I now want to do is an interface to compose the \paper {} block 
code for selecting the music. My original idea had been to have a 
separate tab for that, but now I find that inconvenient. Since there is 
now a "live" preview available I think one should have *one* 
tab/interface where one can choose text and music fonts and have the 
preview available to see how it looks. If such a tab is there it could 
generate the LilyPond code in the background, and one would switch to 
another tab to finally export the results (either to the clipboard or to 
be inserted at the current cursor position or to be passed back to the 
score wizard).


But I'm really not clear how such a single tab could be organized with 
regard to screen estate so all options have enough space to "breathe" 
while at the same time providing access to all required features at 
once. Plus: I think I should take care not to simply make it too big 
because I'm misled by my 1900x1080 monitor resolution. Engraving is a 
DTP use case where generous screen estate sort-of should be expected, 
but dialogs that actually exceed a smaller monitor area are of course 
absolutely to be avoided.


What do you think? What would be helpful as an interface with the least 
need for context switching?


Thanks
Urs



Am 18.09.2018 um 12:51 schrieb Urs Liska:

Hi all,

I'm going to pick up the work on Frescobaldi's "Show available fonts" 
dialog, which I had started giving a fundamental overhaul before the 
holidays.


I'm looking for a nice template document that can be used to 
demonstrate a music font. It should not be too "heavy", and ideally it 
would show off the font at a glance within the space seen in the 
attached screenshot.


Just like the Score Wizard Preview dialog the space will automatically 
get scroll bars so the document *may* be larger but I'd prefer if one 
can see the essentials at first sight.


I'd be glad about some "community contributions" here.

Best
Urs



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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 21.09.2018 um 17:28 schrieb Br. Samuel Springuel:
As my general use case is hymns for congregational singing, if I were 
to find the time to create a sample, it would probably have the 
following characteristics:


Notes of all durations from 1/16 to whole.
Some of the 1/8 and 1/16 notes would be beamed while others unbeamed.
Some slurs and ties.


There's a caveat here: Slurs and ties are not part of the music font and 
therefore look the same, regardless of the font. I made the experience 
that in stylesheets it's important to tweak the appearance of slurs 
pretty much, at least the 'thickness, but maybe also other aspects of 
the shape. So in the context of this preview they won't add too much 
value - and they might even be misleading with "thicker" fonts, like this:






Rests of the same range of durations.
Flats, Sharps, and Natural signs.
Both a treble and a bass clef.
Both a common time signature and a numerical one.
Lyrics with all three text families (preferably with normal, italics, 
and bold represented for all three).

A normal, repeat, and final barline.

In order to keep the sample short, I would not necessarily use real 
music for this (also because my real music samples would normally only 
include a subset of these features).  However, I think such a sample 
would cover most of what I need to see in picking a music font for my 
typical use case.


Would such a sample be sufficiently different from what's been 
submitted so far to be useful?  If so, I can try to make some time to 
throw something together (maybe this weekend?).


I think the fact that it'd be vocal music would be different enough. 
Especially the lyrics idea would be good.
I have also thought about the issue that the examples added so far 
(Scriabine and Berg) look impressive and give an impression of the 
overall appearance, but they actually fail to show many characteristics.


So I'm looking forward to your contribution.

Best
Urs

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Br. Samuel Springuel]

As my general use case is hymns for congregational singing, if I were to 
find the time to create a sample, it would probably have the following 
characteristics:


Notes of all durations from 1/16 to whole.
Some of the 1/8 and 1/16 notes would be beamed while others unbeamed.
Some slurs and ties.
Rests of the same range of durations.
Flats, Sharps, and Natural signs.
Both a treble and a bass clef.
Both a common time signature and a numerical one.
Lyrics with all three text families (preferably with normal, italics, 
and bold represented for all three).

A normal, repeat, and final barline.

In order to keep the sample short, I would not necessarily use real 
music for this (also because my real music samples would normally only 
include a subset of these features).  However, I think such a sample 
would cover most of what I need to see in picking a music font for my 
typical use case.


Would such a sample be sufficiently different from what's been submitted 
so far to be useful?  If so, I can try to make some time to throw 
something together (maybe this weekend?).

--
✝✝
Br. Samuel, OSB
(R. Padraic Springuel)
St. Anselm’s Abbey
4501 South Dakota Ave, NE
Washington, DC, 20017
202-269-2300
(c) 202-853-7036

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Hi foxfanfare


Am 20.09.2018 um 15:08 schrieb foxfanfare:

Urs Liska-3 wrote

I would say generally it should include one system because it should
require as little compiling time as possible and that would most likely
fit in the window without (much) scrolling. If it feels useful or
necessary to show more then it's ok, too. The window will cope with
multi-page documents as well, but I'd strongly suggest not to go that
route.

And I think sample documents should include text in roman, sans and
typewriter fonts too. It's not possible at the moment, but text fonts
will be selectable too, and then it would be stupid not to demonstrate
them in the sample documents.

Urs

Okay, here is my little contribution, 4 bars by Scriabin.
It is a good exercice for me, if this is useful for you, I could write some
more.

Scriabin.JPG 
Scriabin_-_Piano_Sonata_No.ly



Thank you very much, this is very nice and useful.
I have by now incorporated a dropdown box to select from preset samples 
(now including 'Default' (the incomplete example I showed first), 
'Glyphs' (so far a stub), 'Scriabine' and 'Berg'). As before it's also 
possible to load one's own file - and I had the idea of allowing to use 
the currently open document to show the effect of fonts! (Well, there's 
a non-trivial limitation to this: as soon as the document has its own 
paper block that will totally overwrite the font settings, so while this 
looks extremely useful it will fail to work in many cases.)


A new screencast is available at 
https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/pull/1075#issuecomment-423532714


Urs


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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Andrew Bernard]

Satire is IP just the same as anything else.

Unless your comment was satirical!

Andrew


On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 04:26, Aaron Hill  wrote:

>
>
> P.S.  I'm not sure how international intellectual property laws deal
> with satire.
>
>
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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Aaron Hill]

On 2018-09-20 1:26 am, foxfanfare wrote:

Anyone motivated?
https://curatingsubjects.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/79b.gif


Seems someone got a little confused.  That GIF mixes two songs by Stump.

"Faerie's Aire..." is only one page long.  The second page is part of 
"String Quartet No. 556(b) for Strings".


This website lists some of Stump's work as part of his obituary:
https://lostinthecloudblog.com/2010/03/13/john-stump-composer-of-faeries-aire-and-death-waltz/

However, it should be noted that these pieces would still be under 
copyright.  In fact, John includes the following notice at the end of 
one of his "decompositions":


"Unauthorized photocopying of this material is not only illegal, 
unethical, irresponsible and disrespectful, it is very, very uncool."


P.S.  I'm not sure how international intellectual property laws deal 
with satire.


-- Aaron Hill

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[foxfanfare]

foxfanfare wrote
> Scriabin.JPG
> ;  
> Scriabin_-_Piano_Sonata_No.ly
> ;
>   

Little mistake, could you please correct line 16 with:
\finger
  \markup 
  \override #'(baseline-skip . 0)
  \column { 
\translate #'(1.5 . 1.5)
\override #'(thickness . 2)
\draw-line #'(1.25 . 0) 
"4523" }
Thanks




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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[foxfanfare]

Urs Liska-3 wrote
> I would say generally it should include one system because it should 
> require as little compiling time as possible and that would most likely 
> fit in the window without (much) scrolling. If it feels useful or 
> necessary to show more then it's ok, too. The window will cope with 
> multi-page documents as well, but I'd strongly suggest not to go that
> route.
> 
> And I think sample documents should include text in roman, sans and 
> typewriter fonts too. It's not possible at the moment, but text fonts 
> will be selectable too, and then it would be stupid not to demonstrate 
> them in the sample documents.
> 
> Urs

Okay, here is my little contribution, 4 bars by Scriabin.
It is a good exercice for me, if this is useful for you, I could write some
more.

Scriabin.JPG   
Scriabin_-_Piano_Sonata_No.ly

  



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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.09.2018 um 12:10 schrieb foxfanfare:

Urs Liska-3 wrote

Now all I need is a bunch of (self-contained) sample files without paper
blocks which I can then add to the ComboBox's list.
Looking forward to contributions.

Urs

Great! How long should the excerpt be? 1 line? 1 page? more?


I would say generally it should include one system because it should 
require as little compiling time as possible and that would most likely 
fit in the window without (much) scrolling. If it feels useful or 
necessary to show more then it's ok, too. The window will cope with 
multi-page documents as well, but I'd strongly suggest not to go that route.


And I think sample documents should include text in roman, sans and 
typewriter fonts too. It's not possible at the moment, but text fonts 
will be selectable too, and then it would be stupid not to demonstrate 
them in the sample documents.


Urs


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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[foxfanfare]

Urs Liska-3 wrote
> Now all I need is a bunch of (self-contained) sample files without paper 
> blocks which I can then add to the ComboBox's list.
> Looking forward to contributions.
> 
> Urs

Great! How long should the excerpt be? 1 line? 1 page? more?




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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.09.2018 um 10:39 schrieb Urs Liska:

This is a very good idea.
I have now implemented the option to use custom files as can be seen 
here: 
https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/pull/1075#issuecomment-423093733 
(the screencast is probably too large for the list so I refer to that 
place).
The inherent limitation is that the custom files should not have a 
\paper block because that will override the font settings. So you 
can't simply pick any existing file, but I think that is neglectable 
since there will be the tool to insert the font choosing code into the 
document, so you can easily go *that* way to apply fonts to arbitrary 
documents.


There could conveniently be a ComboBox beside the custom file URL edit 
to make the provided samples available.


I will implement this but ask everybody to provide dedicated examples 
of different styles.


OK, the infrastructure is in place:



Now all I need is a bunch of (self-contained) sample files without paper 
blocks which I can then add to the ComboBox's list.

Looking forward to contributions.

Urs
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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.09.2018 um 10:26 schrieb foxfanfare:

Urs Liska-3 wrote

Now that there seems to be a certain common understanding of my initial
idea, may I repeat my request for someone to provide a suitable default
sample document?
Coming up with a score that provides representative details with as
little content as possible does require some creativity, and it would be
a good idea if someone else deals with that so I can spend my time with
the coding itself.

Anyone motivated?
https://curatingsubjects.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/79b.gif

Joke apart, would you think possible/interesting to have small excerpts in
the window preview and options to select a musical time or style in a tab
which will propose different scores? One can then typeset an excerpt of a
renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, xxth, etc... score, which all
combined would represent nearly all the interesting glyphs.

For some fonts, musical context is important. The same idea was used here:
https://elbsound.studio/music-font-comparison.php?font=Aloisen%20New


This is a very good idea.
I have now implemented the option to use custom files as can be seen 
here: 
https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/pull/1075#issuecomment-423093733 
(the screencast is probably too large for the list so I refer to that 
place).
The inherent limitation is that the custom files should not have a 
\paper block because that will override the font settings. So you can't 
simply pick any existing file, but I think that is neglectable since 
there will be the tool to insert the font choosing code into the 
document, so you can easily go *that* way to apply fonts to arbitrary 
documents.


There could conveniently be a ComboBox beside the custom file URL edit 
to make the provided samples available.


I will implement this but ask everybody to provide dedicated examples of 
different styles.


Thanks
Urs




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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[foxfanfare]

Urs Liska-3 wrote
> Now that there seems to be a certain common understanding of my initial 
> idea, may I repeat my request for someone to provide a suitable default 
> sample document?
> Coming up with a score that provides representative details with as 
> little content as possible does require some creativity, and it would be 
> a good idea if someone else deals with that so I can spend my time with 
> the coding itself.

Anyone motivated?
https://curatingsubjects.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/79b.gif

Joke apart, would you think possible/interesting to have small excerpts in
the window preview and options to select a musical time or style in a tab
which will propose different scores? One can then typeset an excerpt of a
renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, xxth, etc... score, which all
combined would represent nearly all the interesting glyphs.

For some fonts, musical context is important. The same idea was used here:
https://elbsound.studio/music-font-comparison.php?font=Aloisen%20New



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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.09.2018 um 02:09 schrieb Br. Samuel Springuel:

On 9/19/18 6:23 PM, Urs Liska wrote:
Do you have any concerns about the limitations with regard to the use 
of the Score Wizard for the Score Wizard's use case too?


The limitations I was worried about were related to the lack of 
variety of the glyphs involved in the preview.  When it comes to 
previewing a layout, variety in glyphs isn't really necessary. When it 
comes to picking a font, it is.  The whole point of the standard 
"quick brown fox" sentence for previewing text fonts is that it 
includes every letter in the English language.  While such coverage is 
probably impossible for a music font (which would contain a whole lot 
more glyphs), one does need to see a range of the available glyphs in 
order to make an informed choice.  What you demonstrated had much 
better variety and the ability to provide a custom template file would 
enable a user interested in particular glyphs to make sure they show up.


Now that there seems to be a certain common understanding of my initial 
idea, may I repeat my request for someone to provide a suitable default 
sample document?
Coming up with a score that provides representative details with as 
little content as possible does require some creativity, and it would be 
a good idea if someone else deals with that so I can spend my time with 
the coding itself.


Now that I think about it, there is one limitation which affects the 
Score Wizard use case: length of the preview.  The preview music in 
the Score Wizard is limited to 2 measures or 10 notes (of the beat 
length), whichever is shorter (not counting the pickup note, if 
present).  This makes for a nice short preview, but it never shows 
what happens after a line break.  Having the ability to have a longer 
preview would be helpful when dealing with those settings which have 
an effect on the second line, but not the first (say, instrument names).




https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/issues/1106

Urs

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Br. Samuel Springuel]

On 9/19/18 6:23 PM, Urs Liska wrote:
Do you have any concerns about the limitations with regard to the use of 
the Score Wizard for the Score Wizard's use case too?


The limitations I was worried about were related to the lack of variety 
of the glyphs involved in the preview.  When it comes to previewing a 
layout, variety in glyphs isn't really necessary.  When it comes to 
picking a font, it is.  The whole point of the standard "quick brown 
fox" sentence for previewing text fonts is that it includes every letter 
in the English language.  While such coverage is probably impossible for 
a music font (which would contain a whole lot more glyphs), one does 
need to see a range of the available glyphs in order to make an informed 
choice.  What you demonstrated had much better variety and the ability 
to provide a custom template file would enable a user interested in 
particular glyphs to make sure they show up.


Now that I think about it, there is one limitation which affects the 
Score Wizard use case: length of the preview.  The preview music in the 
Score Wizard is limited to 2 measures or 10 notes (of the beat length), 
whichever is shorter (not counting the pickup note, if present).  This 
makes for a nice short preview, but it never shows what happens after a 
line break.  Having the ability to have a longer preview would be 
helpful when dealing with those settings which have an effect on the 
second line, but not the first (say, instrument names).


--
✝✝
Br. Samuel, OSB
(R. Padraic Springuel)
St. Anselm’s Abbey
4501 South Dakota Ave, NE
Washington, DC, 20017
202-269-2300
(c) 202-853-7036

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Aaron Hill]

On 2018-09-19 3:21 pm, Urs Liska wrote:

Am 19.09.2018 um 19:27 schrieb Karlin High:

On 9/19/2018 12:17 PM, Urs Liska wrote:

you can see a very preliminary version of the font preview.


(APPLAUSE)

Came through great in Thunderbird here. Very effective demo in a 126KB 
GIF.


Indeed, I like this tool very much: https://github.com/phw/peek very
easy to use, and the results are particularly efficient for this kind
of presentation, without the need for any configuration.


And for us few Windows folks around here, I can recommend ScreenToGif 
(https://www.screentogif.com/) as a free and open-source tool for the 
same task.


-- Aaron Hill

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 19.09.2018 um 19:38 schrieb foxfanfare:

Urs Liska-3 wrote

In a nutshell (would take too long to explain in detail)

   * Significantly improve the "Show available fonts" dialog that so far
 only shows the pretty uncomprehensible LilyPond log:
   o Display real family names, grouped and sorted, with actual-font
 preview
   o Allow filtering by typing in a line edit.
   * Show all music fonts that are "installed" for the given LilyPond
 installation. The preview is what I'm asking about in this thread.
   * Remove music fonts from the current LilyPond installation
   * (Recursively) "Install" music fonts from a directory by linking them
 into the LilyPond installation
   * Planned: Select text and music fonts and generate the corresponding
 code to insert in the document


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Sounds very promising :) I didn't know Frescobaldi was still in development!


To be honest, it is "in development" but only very intermittently. You 
can see the sobering truth here: 
https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/graphs/contributors. Right now I'm 
in a rush to get through with a few of my long-standing wishes and 
ideas, but I can't tell how long that will last. Actually we've just 
started discussing an outline to a set of exciting new functions that 
will hopefully add significant usability improvements and lead to a 3.1 
release in the not-too-distant future.


But at the core is that we should urgently have at least one, better two 
or three fresh developers who can spend some sort of continued 
contribution (of course I'm not talking about full-time committment). 
Any referrals to forums where such people could be found or to concrete 
persons would be very welcome.


Best
Urs

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 19.09.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Br. Samuel Springuel:
I was in the process of noting the limitations of the Score Wizard 
preview and how they made it less useful for a font preview when your 
preliminary demo came through.  Since I think the preliminary demo is 
great and addresses my concerns, I'm scrapping that post just to say I 
like where the demo is going.


Do you have any concerns about the limitations with regard to the use of 
the Score Wizard for the Score Wizard's use case too? If so please share 
them, here or on the issue tracker. Chances will never be as good again 
as right now that they might be addressed ;-)


Urs


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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 19.09.2018 um 19:27 schrieb Karlin High:

On 9/19/2018 12:17 PM, Urs Liska wrote:

you can see a very preliminary version of the font preview.


(APPLAUSE)

Came through great in Thunderbird here. Very effective demo in a 126KB 
GIF.


Indeed, I like this tool very much: https://github.com/phw/peek very 
easy to use, and the results are particularly efficient for this kind of 
presentation, without the need for any configuration.



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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Br. Samuel Springuel]

I was in the process of noting the limitations of the Score Wizard 
preview and how they made it less useful for a font preview when your 
preliminary demo came through.  Since I think the preliminary demo is 
great and addresses my concerns, I'm scrapping that post just to say I 
like where the demo is going.

--
✝✝
Br. Samuel, OSB
(R. Padraic Springuel)
St. Anselm’s Abbey
4501 South Dakota Ave, NE
Washington, DC, 20017
202-269-2300
(c) 202-853-7036

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[foxfanfare]

Urs Liska-3 wrote
> In a nutshell (would take too long to explain in detail)
> 
>   * Significantly improve the "Show available fonts" dialog that so far
> only shows the pretty uncomprehensible LilyPond log:
>   o Display real family names, grouped and sorted, with actual-font
> preview
>   o Allow filtering by typing in a line edit.
>   * Show all music fonts that are "installed" for the given LilyPond
> installation. The preview is what I'm asking about in this thread.
>   * Remove music fonts from the current LilyPond installation
>   * (Recursively) "Install" music fonts from a directory by linking them
> into the LilyPond installation
>   * Planned: Select text and music fonts and generate the corresponding
> code to insert in the document
> 
> 
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Sounds very promising :) I didn't know Frescobaldi was still in development!




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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Karlin High]

On 9/19/2018 12:17 PM, Urs Liska wrote:

you can see a very preliminary version of the font preview.


(APPLAUSE)

Came through great in Thunderbird here. Very effective demo in a 126KB GIF.
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 19.09.2018 um 18:11 schrieb foxfanfare:

tisimst wrote

My 2 cents...

A font preview is a font preview and the best, in my opinion, are those
that show something in a practical context. In this case, an image of a
single or grand staff showing 2-3 bars of a marginally interesting looking
passage would be much more representative of what actual music would look
like than a simple string or matrix of glyphs, though there's nothing
wrong
with that either.

I totally agree with that. I also find better to choose a font in a musical
context.
Exactly like for a text font, one cannot see how it works if you see it
glyph by glyph, you need to see words, sentences, paragraphs...
Urs, the preview you sent looks very interesting, may I ask what this will
be achieving exactly?


In a nutshell (would take too long to explain in detail)

 * Significantly improve the "Show available fonts" dialog that so far
   only shows the pretty uncomprehensible LilyPond log:
 o Display real family names, grouped and sorted, with actual-font
   preview
 o Allow filtering by typing in a line edit.
 * Show all music fonts that are "installed" for the given LilyPond
   installation. The preview is what I'm asking about in this thread.
 * Remove music fonts from the current LilyPond installation
 * (Recursively) "Install" music fonts from a directory by linking them
   into the LilyPond installation
 * Planned: Select text and music fonts and generate the corresponding
   code to insert in the document

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[foxfanfare]

tisimst wrote
> My 2 cents...
> 
> A font preview is a font preview and the best, in my opinion, are those
> that show something in a practical context. In this case, an image of a
> single or grand staff showing 2-3 bars of a marginally interesting looking
> passage would be much more representative of what actual music would look
> like than a simple string or matrix of glyphs, though there's nothing
> wrong
> with that either.

I totally agree with that. I also find better to choose a font in a musical
context. 
Exactly like for a text font, one cannot see how it works if you see it
glyph by glyph, you need to see words, sentences, paragraphs...
Urs, the preview you sent looks very interesting, may I ask what this will
be achieving exactly?




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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 19.09.2018 um 01:20 schrieb Abraham Lee:

Hi, Urs!
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 4:46 PM Urs Liska > wrote:




Am 18.09.2018 um 21:08 schrieb Aaron Hill:
> On 2018-09-18 4:58 am, Andrew Bernard wrote:
>> Hi Urs,
>>
>> I would like to set the glyph set as per Abraham Lee's foundry
website:
>>
>> https://www.musictypefoundry.com/product/mtf-cadence
>>
>> Much rather this than a piece of music. Any sample of music will be
>> irrelevant to some large subset of people. For example, my new
>> complexity
>> stuff would just annoy people, and I don't want to see a sample of
>> Brahms
>> (no disrespect to Brahms!!).
>>
>> Perhaps you could put music examples on a separate website, not
in the
>> program.
>>
>> On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 20:52, Urs Liska mailto:li...@openlilylib.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm looking for a nice template document that can be used to
>>> demonstrate
>>> a music font. It should not be too "heavy", and ideally it
would show
>>> off the font at a glance within the space seen in the attached
>>> screenshot.
>
> Another idea: make it customizable.  I doubt there is ever going
to be
> a one-size-fits-all preview template for fonts.  Of course, it's
more
> work to support this, but providing you are shelling out to
LilyPond
> behind the scenes to render the preview live, then allowing the
> end-user to provide a custom template would address concerns from
> folks who work in more esoteric branches of notation.

Although compelling I think this would be over the top.
a) if someone wants to see music fonts with specific music they can
simply use an existing or create a new document and test the fonts
with it.
b) These sample documents will usually not be generated live but are
cached, so in 95% of the cases (except the first time a new font is
installed) an existing PDF will be loaded.

So I think I'll go with the suggestion to create some sort of "glyph
matrix", showing the font elements without context.

I think the updated dialog will be used much more regularly than the
previous one, not only because the available (music but especially
text)
fonts are now nicely listed and displayed, but also because it will
additionally provide the tools to *select* fonts (i.e. create the
appropriate LilyPond code).


My 2 cents...

A font preview is a font preview and the best, in my opinion, are 
those that show something in a practical context. In this case, an 
image of a single or grand staff showing 2-3 bars of a marginally 
interesting looking passage would be much more representative of what 
actual music would look like than a simple string or matrix of glyphs, 
though there's nothing wrong with that either. I agree that trying to 
make it a "live" preview is not worth it until LilyPond can be made to 
run "live".


That's what I would prefer to see. Take that for what it's worth.


This gives me the idea that it might be the most straightforward and 
most consistent approach could be to actually use the code that creates 
the Score Wizard Preview sample scores.


Urs



Best,
Abraham


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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Abraham Lee]

Hi, Urs!
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 4:46 PM Urs Liska  wrote:

>
>
> Am 18.09.2018 um 21:08 schrieb Aaron Hill:
> > On 2018-09-18 4:58 am, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> >> Hi Urs,
> >>
> >> I would like to set the glyph set as per Abraham Lee's foundry website:
> >>
> >> https://www.musictypefoundry.com/product/mtf-cadence
> >>
> >> Much rather this than a piece of music. Any sample of music will be
> >> irrelevant to some large subset of people. For example, my new
> >> complexity
> >> stuff would just annoy people, and I don't want to see a sample of
> >> Brahms
> >> (no disrespect to Brahms!!).
> >>
> >> Perhaps you could put music examples on a separate website, not in the
> >> program.
> >>
> >> On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 20:52, Urs Liska  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'm looking for a nice template document that can be used to
> >>> demonstrate
> >>> a music font. It should not be too "heavy", and ideally it would show
> >>> off the font at a glance within the space seen in the attached
> >>> screenshot.
> >
> > Another idea: make it customizable.  I doubt there is ever going to be
> > a one-size-fits-all preview template for fonts.  Of course, it's more
> > work to support this, but providing you are shelling out to LilyPond
> > behind the scenes to render the preview live, then allowing the
> > end-user to provide a custom template would address concerns from
> > folks who work in more esoteric branches of notation.
>
> Although compelling I think this would be over the top.
> a) if someone wants to see music fonts with specific music they can
> simply use an existing or create a new document and test the fonts with it.
> b) These sample documents will usually not be generated live but are
> cached, so in 95% of the cases (except the first time a new font is
> installed) an existing PDF will be loaded.
>
> So I think I'll go with the suggestion to create some sort of "glyph
> matrix", showing the font elements without context.
>
> I think the updated dialog will be used much more regularly than the
> previous one, not only because the available (music but especially text)
> fonts are now nicely listed and displayed, but also because it will
> additionally provide the tools to *select* fonts (i.e. create the
> appropriate LilyPond code).
>

My 2 cents...

A font preview is a font preview and the best, in my opinion, are those
that show something in a practical context. In this case, an image of a
single or grand staff showing 2-3 bars of a marginally interesting looking
passage would be much more representative of what actual music would look
like than a simple string or matrix of glyphs, though there's nothing wrong
with that either. I agree that trying to make it a "live" preview is not
worth it until LilyPond can be made to run "live".

That's what I would prefer to see. Take that for what it's worth.

Best,
Abraham
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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Am 18.09.2018 um 21:08 schrieb Aaron Hill:

On 2018-09-18 4:58 am, Andrew Bernard wrote:

Hi Urs,

I would like to set the glyph set as per Abraham Lee's foundry website:

https://www.musictypefoundry.com/product/mtf-cadence

Much rather this than a piece of music. Any sample of music will be
irrelevant to some large subset of people. For example, my new 
complexity
stuff would just annoy people, and I don't want to see a sample of 
Brahms

(no disrespect to Brahms!!).

Perhaps you could put music examples on a separate website, not in the
program.

On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 20:52, Urs Liska  wrote:


I'm looking for a nice template document that can be used to 
demonstrate

a music font. It should not be too "heavy", and ideally it would show
off the font at a glance within the space seen in the attached 
screenshot.


Another idea: make it customizable.  I doubt there is ever going to be 
a one-size-fits-all preview template for fonts.  Of course, it's more 
work to support this, but providing you are shelling out to LilyPond 
behind the scenes to render the preview live, then allowing the 
end-user to provide a custom template would address concerns from 
folks who work in more esoteric branches of notation.


Although compelling I think this would be over the top.
a) if someone wants to see music fonts with specific music they can 
simply use an existing or create a new document and test the fonts with it.
b) These sample documents will usually not be generated live but are 
cached, so in 95% of the cases (except the first time a new font is 
installed) an existing PDF will be loaded.


So I think I'll go with the suggestion to create some sort of "glyph 
matrix", showing the font elements without context.


I think the updated dialog will be used much more regularly than the 
previous one, not only because the available (music but especially text) 
fonts are now nicely listed and displayed, but also because it will 
additionally provide the tools to *select* fonts (i.e. create the 
appropriate LilyPond code).


Urs




-- Aaron Hill

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Aaron Hill]

On 2018-09-18 4:58 am, Andrew Bernard wrote:

Hi Urs,

I would like to set the glyph set as per Abraham Lee's foundry website:

https://www.musictypefoundry.com/product/mtf-cadence

Much rather this than a piece of music. Any sample of music will be
irrelevant to some large subset of people. For example, my new 
complexity
stuff would just annoy people, and I don't want to see a sample of 
Brahms

(no disrespect to Brahms!!).

Perhaps you could put music examples on a separate website, not in the
program.

On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 20:52, Urs Liska  wrote:


I'm looking for a nice template document that can be used to 
demonstrate

a music font. It should not be too "heavy", and ideally it would show
off the font at a glance within the space seen in the attached 
screenshot.


Another idea: make it customizable.  I doubt there is ever going to be a 
one-size-fits-all preview template for fonts.  Of course, it's more work 
to support this, but providing you are shelling out to LilyPond behind 
the scenes to render the preview live, then allowing the end-user to 
provide a custom template would address concerns from folks who work in 
more esoteric branches of notation.



-- Aaron Hill

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Re: Sample document to show music fonts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Urs,

I would like to set the glyph set as per Abraham Lee's foundry website:

https://www.musictypefoundry.com/product/mtf-cadence

Much rather this than a piece of music. Any sample of music will be
irrelevant to some large subset of people. For example, my new complexity
stuff would just annoy people, and I don't want to see a sample of Brahms
(no disrespect to Brahms!!).

Perhaps you could put music examples on a separate website, not in the
program.

Andrew


On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 20:52, Urs Liska  wrote:

>
> I'm looking for a nice template document that can be used to demonstrate
> a music font. It should not be too "heavy", and ideally it would show
> off the font at a glance within the space seen in the attached screenshot.
>
>
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Sample document to show music fonts

[Urs Liska]

Hi all,

I'm going to pick up the work on Frescobaldi's "Show available fonts" 
dialog, which I had started giving a fundamental overhaul before the 
holidays.


I'm looking for a nice template document that can be used to demonstrate 
a music font. It should not be too "heavy", and ideally it would show 
off the font at a glance within the space seen in the attached screenshot.


Just like the Score Wizard Preview dialog the space will automatically 
get scroll bars so the document *may* be larger but I'd prefer if one 
can see the essentials at first sight.


I'd be glad about some "community contributions" here.

Best
Urs

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