Re: Short stems

[David Kastrup]

Thomas Morley  writes:

> 2012/12/18 Jan Nieuwenhuizen :
>> Thomas Morley writes:
>>
>>> In the past I was sometimes beaten by spam.
>>> And I'm absolutly nerved by online-commercials.
>>
>> Have you ever seen spam or commercials on these lists?
>
> Yes, sent from hacked accounts, I suppose.

I can't actually say anything here as I am reading this list through the
Gmane news aggregator (using GNUS, the Emacs built-in mail/news reader),
and Gmane is rather good at filtering.  Perhaps that would be an option
for you as well?

Creating useful images for posting is easy using the --png -dpreview
options, and people use this frequently.

The most annoying non-SPAM occurences are whole-page scans of likely
copyrighted material, but those are fairly rare here.

You'll probably get a reasonably good Signal/Noise ratio by just
permitting PNG images (unpopular for SPAM, main image output from
LilyPond).  However, at times people do scan small excerpts of printed
music for illustrating some construct, and those tend to be JPEG, also a
preferred format for SPAM.  So if you have a way to at least notice when
such an image is included (even if not opening it automatically), that
may help at times.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Short stems

[Thomas Morley]

2012/12/18 Jan Nieuwenhuizen :
> Thomas Morley writes:
>
>> In the past I was sometimes beaten by spam.
>> And I'm absolutly nerved by online-commercials.
>
> Have you ever seen spam or commercials on these lists?

Yes, sent from hacked accounts, I suppose.

>
>> So I block/filter where possible.
>
> You may want to filter INBOX, if your ISP is failing at blocking spam.
> You can also consider switching your ISP or use other email options.
> I don't see any reason to block/filter images in these lists.
>
>> I could allow inline-images, but for the reasons above I don't _want_
>> them to be shown.
>
> You may want to review your reasoning.

Ok, will rethink it.

>
> Greetings, Jan


Regards,
  Harm

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Re: Short stems

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Thomas Morley writes:

> In the past I was sometimes beaten by spam.
> And I'm absolutly nerved by online-commercials.

Have you ever seen spam or commercials on these lists?

> So I block/filter where possible.

You may want to filter INBOX, if your ISP is failing at blocking spam.
You can also consider switching your ISP or use other email options.
I don't see any reason to block/filter images in these lists.

> I could allow inline-images, but for the reasons above I don't _want_
> them to be shown.

You may want to review your reasoning.

Greetings, Jan

-- 
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Re: A question of list etiquette and images. (Was Re: Short stems)

[Thomas Morley]

2012/12/18 Arle Lommel :
> First off, thanks very much, Harm, for taking the time to review my issue and 
> provide a detailed response, despite the complaint about images. I will work 
> with it and see how it works out.

Hi Arle,

let me express my apology having been impolite again.

> Given that, does anyone have any suggestions to how behave nicely for list 
> members like Harm when images are involved? Sometimes graphics are needed, 
> and from a user perspective being able to say "like this" is very useful. 
> Surely if Harm is not alone in filtering them out, I am also not alone in 
> using current mail clients that don't make the distinction Harm wants me to 
> make. I'm surely not the only one for whom "DON'T POST INLINE-IMAGES! Attach 
> them!” is a dictum that cannot be complied with because it is not a 
> meaningful one in our software.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Arle

In the past there were some other mails with inline-images, but not
mentioning them in the text.
So I've never known what the text is about.

Well, you could say that's _my_ problem and you would be right.
I'd suggest to give a hint that there is sth, though.

image1: 
would be nice.


Regards,
  Harm

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Re: Short stems

[Arle Lommel]

No worries at all. If most people were “impolite” in the same way (offering 
solutions and helping) the world would be better off. Since you've helped me 
before, I didn't take it personally in any way. 

Arle 

> I apologize having been impolite.
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Re: Short stems

[Thomas Morley]

2012/12/18 Jan Nieuwenhuizen :
> Thomas Morley writes:
>
>> please:
>> DON'T POST INLINE-IMAGES!
>
> Can you please don't shout, esp. not to our users?

Hi Arle, Jan,

I apologize having been impolite.

>> Attach them!
>> I'm surely not alone with filtering them out.
>
> Why would anyone do that?

In the past I was sometimes beaten by spam.
And I'm absolutly nerved by online-commercials.
So I block/filter where possible.

> People will inline pictures and I find that
> very useful.  Werner has sent many many clear bug reports using inline
> pictures, much friendlier than attached.
>
> If you can't handle them, you may consider using the mailing list
> archives
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2012-12/msg00556.html
>
> Greetings, Jan

I could allow inline-images, but for the reasons above I don't _want_
them to be shown.
As I wrote before, I'm aware of the possibility to refer to the archives.

I'll post a suggestion in one of the other threads.


Regards,
  Harm

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Re: Short stems [ATTENTION: INLINE IMAGES]

[Arle Lommel]

> …how can you be so sure that the LilyPond output wrong?

I'm not at all sure it is wrong, but as Werner points out, there were 
non-German traditions that Lilypond does not address. Since this comes from one 
of those and I am trying to represent the score in a nicer format that is still 
"true" to the original in some fashion, I want to make the change indicated. 

> The original image does not represent
> quality engraving and cannot and should not be used as an example,
> IMNSHO.  There are too many problems with it to take it as a standard.

I agree that it is far from perfect. At the same time there have been a number 
of aspects where I have found it clearer for this piece than the Lilypond 
default. I would not hold it up as a model for other things. Ultimately much of 
this is a matter of taste. 

> 
> 
> Of course, your feeling that there is something wrovng with the LilyPond
> output could still hold, but we'd need more and esp. better examples.

I don't know that anything needs to change. I have my opinion and others have 
theirs. I would not presume to state that mine is the single correct one. 

> While you are free to change it in your own score, that's not even
> recommended as long as we don't know what it should look like.

"Should" conceals a lot of assumptions :-)

> 
>> The chord looks MUCH better to me
> 
> ..yes...
> 
>> and which is closer to the old engraving
> 
> ...yes..., but this engraving, though possibly old, is not nice, or
> does not look like any of the engravings we have been mimicking.

Again, I'm looking for something else then. That's ok I think. 

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Re: Short stems [ATTENTION: INLINE IMAGES]

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Arle Lommel writes:

> Thanks for pointing out the regional and temporal variations at work here.
> That tells me the Lilypond default isn't a bug. It is just a difference of
> aesthetic ideal and intention.

It still /could/ be, what I say it that it's impossible for me to tell
yet.

Greetings, Jan

-- 
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Re: Short stems [ATTENTION: INLINE IMAGES]

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Arle Lommel writes:

> I thought I was fairly clear about the specifics—“I find the stem here awfully
> short because it makes the flag on the eighth note run into the note
> heads”—but I guess not.

Yes, that's clear.

> But the inline images (yes) shown below should resolve any confusion
> on the point.

They help, but for me they don't.  I see the difference, and I note
your point about the flag touching the note head, but how can you
be so sure that the LilyPond output wrong?

The original image does not represent
quality engraving and cannot and should not be used as an example,
IMNSHO.  There are too many problems with it to take it as a standard.


Of course, your feeling that there is something wrovng with the LilyPond
output could still hold, but we'd need more and esp. better examples.

While you are free to change it in your own score, that's not even
recommended as long as we don't know what it should look like.

> The chord looks MUCH better to me

..yes...

> and which is closer to the old engraving

...yes..., but this engraving, though possibly old, is not nice, or
does not look like any of the engravings we have been mimicking.

Greetings, Jan

-- 
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Re: A question of list etiquette and images. (Was Re: Short stems)

[David Kastrup]

Paul Morris  writes:

> On Dec 18, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Arle Lommel  wrote:
>
>> Given that, does anyone have any suggestions to how behave nicely
>> for list members like Harm when images are involved?
>
> Hi Arle, Hmmm...  one possible solution is to post your images in
> flickr, dropbox, or your online storage provider of choice, and then
> include links to them in your messages.

Huh.  For me (small) inline images are quite fine in GNUS.  External
downloads, in contrast, would be quite more of a nuisance.  Perhaps
using both?  Though to be honest, having to use an http download link
over an inline image in reasonably standard format does not strike me
like much of a security advantage.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Short stems [ATTENTION: INLINE IMAGES]

[Arle Lommel]

The score I am working from was printed in Boston in the 1860s. It was 
relatively clear, but the "corrected" version of 1874 was loaded with junk: 
pervasive fingerings, nonsensical slurs, seemingly random articulation marks. 
So much was loaded in that it looks like a rat's nest. 

Thanks for pointing out the regional and temporal variations at work here. That 
tells me the Lilypond default isn't a bug. It is just a difference of aesthetic 
ideal and intention.

I suppose by developing some new fonts and changing some defaults that Lilypond 
could handle other styles as well, which is a nice testament to its design.

Best,

Arle

--
Arle Lommel
Berlin, Germany
Skype: arle_lommel
Phone (US): +1 707 709 8650

Sent from a mobile device. Please excuse any typos.

On Dec 18, 2012, at 9:03, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:

> 
>>> LilyPond tries to mimick traditional engraving.  There are bugs,
>>> however, saying "I find xx is too short" is not helpful.
>> 
>> I thought I was fairly clear about the specifics―“I find the stem
>> here awfully short because it makes the flag on the eighth note run
>> into the note heads”―but I guess not. But the inline images (yes)
>> shown below should resolve any confusion on the point.
> 
> Interesting.  The original scan shows a typography style which isn't
> the standard LilyPond is referring to, namely scores typeset in
> Germany in the early 20th century.  It appears much `lighter'; for
> example, the stems are hardly touching the noteheads.  It's not
> surprising that the lower flag (which has a very different shape, BTW)
> isn't touching the noteheads either.
> 
> 
>Werner
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Re: Short stems [ATTENTION: INLINE IMAGES]

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> LilyPond tries to mimick traditional engraving.  There are bugs,
>> however, saying "I find xx is too short" is not helpful.
> 
> I thought I was fairly clear about the specifics―“I find the stem
> here awfully short because it makes the flag on the eighth note run
> into the note heads”―but I guess not. But the inline images (yes)
> shown below should resolve any confusion on the point.

Interesting.  The original scan shows a typography style which isn't
the standard LilyPond is referring to, namely scores typeset in
Germany in the early 20th century.  It appears much `lighter'; for
example, the stems are hardly touching the noteheads.  It's not
surprising that the lower flag (which has a very different shape, BTW)
isn't touching the noteheads either.


Werner

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Re: Short stems

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Werner has sent many many clear bug reports using inline pictures,
> much friendlier than attached.

Uhmm, no.  I've never done that.  Using the `mew' e-mail reader
(within Emacs) I can actually read inline images but not create.


Werner

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Re: A question of list etiquette and images. (Was Re: Short stems)

[Francisco Vila]

2012/12/18 Arle Lommel :
> It provides an interesting conundrum. I use a Macintosh with the default 
> client (Apple Mail) or a mobile device (iPhone) with the built-in mail 
> client. With neither of those is there any distinction between in-line and 
> attached images at all. In other words, short of changing my entire mail set 
> up, I don't have any choice* but to post inline images.

>From my ignorance: can you attach any other kind of file such as a
PDF? Would it be inline too? In case: why generic files and not
images?

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Short stems

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Thomas Morley writes:

> please:
> DON'T POST INLINE-IMAGES!

Can you please don't shout, esp. not to our users?

> Attach them!
> I'm surely not alone with filtering them out.

Why would anyone do that?  People will inline pictures and I find that
very useful.  Werner has sent many many clear bug reports using inline
pictures, much friendlier than attached.

If you can't handle them, you may consider using the mailing list
archives

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2012-12/msg00556.html

Greetings, Jan

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Re: Short stems

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Arle Lommel writes:

> I have run into an odd little aesthetic issue. I'm finding that some
> eighth (or shorter) notes get stems that are too short when they stick
> out from the staff.

LilyPond tries to mimick traditional engraving.  There are bugs,
however, saying "I find xx is too short" is not helpful.

Please find a piece of beautiful engraving and compare that with
LilyPond to see if you found a bug, and show us.

If you cannot find it, you may consider revising your taste regarding
the issue.

Oh, I don't see anything wrong with inline pictures

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2012-12/msg00556.html

we've been using them for bug reports and I happen to like them.

Greetings, Jan

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Re: Short stems

[Arle Lommel]

> then you might comment on the recommendation for improvement here
>  
> which will probably prompt some action.

I will look at that. See my note below: I think the default values are a 
problem.

> LilyPond's default is the list I typed above : shorten stems with zero flags 
> by 1.0 staffspace, stems with one-or-more flags by 0.5 staff space.   
> I guess you will like something closer to  #'(1.0 0.3 0.2)
> where the extra entry is for stem with two-or-more flags


After some experiment I ended up completely turning off shortening for eighth 
and shorter. Even the minimal values you supplied were leaving the flags 
colliding with note heads.

\override Stem #'details #'stem-shorten =  #'(1.0 0 0)

And that seems to resolve the issue. I'll have to play around with Harm's more 
involved solution as well and see what it offers me.

Thanks,

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Re: A question of list etiquette and images. (Was Re: Short stems)

[Paul Morris]

On Dec 18, 2012, at 1:03 AM, Arle Lommel  wrote:

> Given that, does anyone have any suggestions to how behave nicely for list 
> members like Harm when images are involved? 

Hi Arle,   Hmmm...  one possible solution is to post your images in flickr, 
dropbox, or your online storage provider of choice, and then include links to 
them in your messages.  

(I saw where Thunderbird now has this feature where it will upload a file to 
online storage and insert the link into your message.  I'm not suggesting you 
change your email app -- it's just what made me think of this.)

Just a thought,
-Paul
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A question of list etiquette and images. (Was Re: Short stems)

[Arle Lommel]

First off, thanks very much, Harm, for taking the time to review my issue and 
provide a detailed response, despite the complaint about images. I will work 
with it and see how it works out.

Now please forgive me for diverting from Lilypond-related matters to issues of 
the list etiquette. My issue is raised by this statement:

> please:
> DON'T POST INLINE-IMAGES!
> Attach them!
> I'm surely not alone with filtering them out.


It provides an interesting conundrum. I use a Macintosh with the default client 
(Apple Mail) or a mobile device (iPhone) with the built-in mail client. With 
neither of those is there any distinction between in-line and attached images 
at all. In other words, short of changing my entire mail set up, I don't have 
any choice* but to post inline images.

The best I could do is put images at the end of the message, but that doesn't 
address the issue you raise at all since they are still, even then, treated as 
inline images and it only changes the location within the message.

(*OK, technically there is a kludge from the Terminal to change default 
behavior to not allow in-line viewing—on the Mac, but not, as far as I can 
tell, on the iPhone—, but it ends up disrupting normal function of the mail 
programs and would require quitting the program, changing the default in the 
terminal, and restarting the mail program just to deal with the list. Nor, as 
far as I can tell, would it fix the problem for someone else. I believe it only 
changes the display preference for me.)

Given that, does anyone have any suggestions to how behave nicely for list 
members like Harm when images are involved? Sometimes graphics are needed, and 
from a user perspective being able to say "like this" is very useful. Surely if 
Harm is not alone in filtering them out, I am also not alone in using current 
mail clients that don't make the distinction Harm wants me to make. I'm surely 
not the only one for whom "DON'T POST INLINE-IMAGES! Attach them!” is a dictum 
that cannot be complied with because it is not a meaningful one in our software.

Best regards,

Arle
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Re: Short stems

[Keith OHara]

Arle Lommel  gmail.com> writes:

> I have run into an odd little aesthetic issue. I'm finding that
> some eighth (or shorter) notes get stems that
> are too short when they stick out from the staff.

I see you have plenty of answers already, but if you use the list of values
that LilyPond uses internally 

\relative c'' {
   \override Stem #'details #'stem-shorten =  #'(1.0 0.5)
   16 \stemDown  } 

then you might comment on the recommendation for improvement here
  
which will probably prompt some action.

LilyPond's default is the list I typed above : shorten stems with zero flags 
by 1.0 staffspace, stems with one-or-more flags by 0.5 staff space.   
I guess you will like something closer to  #'(1.0 0.3 0.2)
where the extra entry is for stem with two-or-more flags


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Re: Short stems

[Nick Payne]

On 18/12/12 09:35, Arle Lommel wrote:
I have run into an odd little aesthetic issue. I'm finding that some 
eighth (or shorter) notes get stems that are too short when they stick 
out from the staff.

You can change the default multiplier for stem lengths with

\override Stem.length-fraction = #(magstep n)

where n is the value you allocate to magstep to suit your needs. e.g.

\version "2.16.1"

\relative c'' {
  \override Stem #'length-fraction = #(magstep 1.5)
  8 \stemDown 8
}

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Re: Short stems

[Thomas Morley]

2012/12/17 Arle Lommel 

> I have run into an odd little aesthetic issue. I'm finding that some
> eighth (or shorter) notes get stems that are too short when they stick out
> from the staff.
>
> For instance, I find the stem here awfully short because it makes the flag
> on the eighth note run into the note heads:
>
>
>
> But the measure before I get this:
>
>
> Which looks fine.
>
> While I am can tweak note stem lengths on an individual basis, it seems a
> less than ideal to address the issue.
>
> Is there some setting that can be used to keep the stems from getting so
> short? For the most part it only bothers me on the eight notes and shorter
> duration where the flags make it more apparent.
>
> Best,
>
> Arle
>
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>

Hi Arle,

please:
DON'T POST INLINE-IMAGES!
Attach them!
I'm surely not alone with filtering them out.

If I want to see what image you posted, I have to refer to the archives (or
change my filter-settings and I will _not_ do that).
This doesn't boost my motivation to work on your problem.

That said, on topic:
You may want to use the code below to lengthen an unbeamed stem for 8th or
shorter.
Sometimes LilyPond does a long stem, so I provided a reverting, too.

\version "2.16.1"

stemAdd =
#(define-music-function (parser location stem-add)(number?)
"
 Adds the value of stem-add to the length of the unbeamed stems of 8th and
 shorter.
"
#{
\override Stem #'after-line-breaking =
   #(lambda (grob)
 (let* ((dur (ly:grob-property grob 'duration-log))
(nc (ly:grob-parent grob Y))
(beam? (ly:grob? (ly:grob-object grob 'beam)))
(lngth (if (not beam?)(ly:grob-property grob 'length
 (if (and (not beam?) (>= dur 3))
   (ly:grob-set-property! grob 'length (+ stem-add lngth))
   #f)))
#})

revertStemAdd = \revert Stem #'after-line-breaking

\layout {
\stemAdd #1
}

\relative c' {
\voiceTwo
\autoBeamOff
8
d4
d8
d8[ e]
d16
d32
d64
d'64
\revertStemAdd
d'8 |
}


HTH,
  Harm
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Short stems

[Arle Lommel]

I have run into an odd little aesthetic issue. I'm finding that some eighth (or shorter) notes get stems that are too short when they stick out from the staff.For instance, I find the stem here awfully short because it makes the flag on the eighth note run into the note heads:But the measure before I get this:Which looks fine.While I am can tweak note stem lengths on an individual basis, it seems a less than ideal to address the issue.Is there some setting that can be used to keep the stems from getting so short? For the most part it only bothers me on the eight notes and shorter duration where the flags make it more apparent.Best,Arle___
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