Re: Usability Question
Bertalan Fodor wrote: A visual slur tweaking tool exists (see in the archives.) Have you tried that? I have now - and it's great! Bertalan, have you considered including this in/with LilyPondTool? ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Yes, I'm working on it. Bert Brett Duncan írta: Bertalan Fodor wrote: A visual slur tweaking tool exists (see in the archives.) Have you tried that? I have now - and it's great! Bertalan, have you considered including this in/with LilyPondTool? ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Bertalan Fodor escreveu: Yes, I'm working on it. Bert Brett Duncan írta: Bertalan Fodor wrote: A visual slur tweaking tool exists (see in the archives.) Have you tried that? I have now - and it's great! Bertalan, have you considered including this in/with LilyPondTool? If I ever get round to it, the meaning of the control-points property will be changed. The x-coordinate should be relative to the horizontal span of the slur/tie. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen LilyPond Software Design -- Code for Music Notation http://www.lilypond-design.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
It seems I didn't look carefully enough at the output after doing some final
modifications. However, if you replace the definition of myVoiceFive by
myVoiceFive = { \myVoiceOne \shiftOnn }
then everything seems to work as it should. It's weird, since these two
definitions should be completely equivalent.
/Mats
Bertalan Fodor wrote:
First of all, here's an alternative version of
your code that hopefully is somewhat closer to what you want.
Mats, this also says clashing notecolumns in the first note (and
merges them to one position) (with 2.10.11)
--
=
Mats Bengtsson
Signal Processing
Signals, Sensors and Systems
Royal Institute of Technology
SE-100 44 STOCKHOLM
Sweden
Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463
Fax: (+46) 8 790 7260
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=
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Re: Usability Question
Frédéric Chiasson escreveu: I am not a programmer. I can't start to program myself to make an interface. But I may suggest some clues for design. It may be possible No. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen LilyPond Software Design -- Code for Music Notation http://www.lilypond-design.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Dear Brett,
thanks a lot for your input which was indeed very helpful!
I do see now how this notation issue could work. I am just afraid that this
is far too much of an overhead work to do this for each one of the six
sonatas and partitas by Bach.
Thanks a lot, all the folks out there, for your help and contributions.
Please take my sincere apologies if you have felt I was impolite or too lazy
to search. This was not my intent.
All the best,
Upro
Brett Duncan-2 wrote:
Hi Upro,
based on what others have contributed here, especially about voiceFive,
here's my attempt to reproduce what appeared in the JPEG. It's pretty
close - there is the small matter of the slant on the second set of
beamed notes, which Carl already noted. The last slur also seems to end
in a rather high position. I'm pretty sure both of these things can be
adjusted, but others can probably come up with the right answers for
those faster than I can (assuming you want to change them).
I for one am glad you asked your questions - I've learned some useful
things from the ensuing discussion!
Brett
%---
\version 2.10.12
#(set-global-staff-size 17)
\header {
title = \markup \center-align \italic { Sonata 1ma a Violino Solo
senza Basso di J. S. Bach}
}
\include deutsch.ly
voiceFive = { \voiceOne \shiftOnn }
melody = \new Staff {
\time 4/4
\key d \minor
\clef treble
\relative c' {
\voiceOne
\new Voice=3 { \voiceThree b'4}
\new Voice=5 { \voiceFive \stemUp d,}
\new Voice=4 { \voiceFour g,}
{ \tieUp g''4 ~ }
\oneVoice g32[ f( es d c b a b64 g)]
\voiceThree
\new Voice=1 { \voiceOne c4}
\new Voice=2 { \voiceFour a,4}
{ g'8 \tieDown fis8 ~}
\oneVoice fis32[ e!( d e fis g a c64 b)]
\voiceThree
\new Voice=1 { \voiceOne fis'4}
\new Voice=2 { \voiceTwo d,8 s }
{ \tieDown c'8[ ~ c32( d64 c b32 c] }
\oneVoice \once \override Script #'avoid-slur = #'inside
c16.[\trill b64 c d16 a])
}
}
\score {
\melody
\layout {
}
}
\paper {
#(set-paper-size a4)
}
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Re: Usability Question
Brett Duncan wrote:
%---
\version 2.10.12
#(set-global-staff-size 17)
\header {
title = \markup \center-align \italic { Sonata 1ma a Violino Solo
senza Basso di J. S. Bach}
}
\include deutsch.ly
voiceFive = { \voiceOne \shiftOnn }
melody = \new Staff {
\time 4/4
\key d \minor
\clef treble
\relative c' { \voiceOne
\new Voice=3 { \voiceThree b'4}
There's no point in naming the contexts here. You could save some
typing by simply saying
\new Voice { \voiceThree b'4}
For the beam slant, it's tedious but possible to manually specify the
position of the
end points of the beam, see the example called beam-control.ly in the
Tips and Tricks
document.
/Mats
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Re: Usability Question
I do see now how this notation issue could work. I am just afraid that this is far too much of an overhead work to do this for each one of the six sonatas and partitas by Bach. Well, I'm after more then two hundred pages is LilyPond score, including some 50 pages of more complicated ones, I've found that after a quite tough start, when finding the best practices for a score, the rest is easy. Now, we created \voiceFive and some others for you. I think you can easily build your score from these elements. And I'm sure you will get additional help here if you need. I don't know Sibelius, but I'm quite curious if you must manually move notes in polyphonic situations or you just say regard as fifth/seventh voice. Bert ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Mats Bengtsson wrote:
Brett Duncan wrote:
snip
\new Voice=3 { \voiceThree b'4}
There's no point in naming the contexts here. You could save some
typing by simply saying
\new Voice { \voiceThree b'4}
Thanks Mats - I'd followed what Rutger had posted, and assumed that the
contexts had to be named, it's useful to know that's not necessary.
For the beam slant, it's tedious but possible to manually specify the
position of the
end points of the beam, see the example called beam-control.ly in the
Tips and Tricks
document.
Actually, it's not really that tedious -the override is pretty
straightforward and easy to understand. It took me very little time to
look at the example and apply the override.
OTOH, adjusting the final slur to match what was in the JPEG *was*
tedious, and I noticed that in the example in Tips and Tricks it points
out that any change in the horizontal spacing will also require
repositioning the slur.
I'm going to play with that a little more, to make sure I really
understand what it's doing. Incidentally, is there a way to extract the
control points of a slur automatically generated by LP? I tried
\displayMusic but it didn't tell me anything about the control points.
Brett
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Re: Usability Question
Brett Duncan wrote: I'm going to play with that a little more, to make sure I really understand what it's doing. Incidentally, is there a way to extract the control points of a slur automatically generated by LP? I tried \displayMusic but it didn't tell me anything about the control points. The short answer is yes; the long answer is that I can't remember how. If you search the bugs- and -devel mailists, you should be able to find it -- it was recommended to me while I was investigating some bug; I think this happened within the past two months. It was certainly after August 2006. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
A visual slur tweaking tool exists (see in the archives.) Have you tried that? I'm going to play with that a little more, to make sure I really understand what it's doing. Incidentally, is there a way to extract the control points of a slur automatically generated by LP? I tried \displayMusic but it didn't tell me anything about the control points. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
If you look at the definition of voice you will see:
voiceOne = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 0) 'Voice)
voiceTwo = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 1) 'Voice)
voiceThree =#(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 2) 'Voice)
voiceFour = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 3) 'Voice)
So voiceFive shoudl be possible
Bert
Yes! And it *works* !
Rutger
voiceFive = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 4) 'Voice)
{ \voiceOne g''4 ~ \stemDown g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] } \\ {
\voiceThree b4} \\ { \voiceFive d,} \\ { \voiceTwo g,}\\
Bert
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Re: Usability Question
Upro jelden at gmail.com writes: I admit that not finding the function for a simple line brake was not very smart of me. I have studied the online-manual thouroughly, but it's not easy to find solutions there, and I haven't found them for the descripbed problems. Try the PDF version as it is really easy to search. Also you can search within sites with google (haven't tried this, but imagine it works) Suggestions like condensing a four voiced, polyphonic piece by Bach for an Urtext edition for one of the major publishers seems to me a strange reaction to my query. Also, fake a solution with invisibile notes is not a solution you would like to use in an edition of a 65-page manuscript. I think this comes to a rather important issue. Lilypond has not been what I had expected (read: ideally hoped!) when I first came across it. The reality never is as simple we would like it to be, because the reality has to deal with all the contingencies adressed in this archive. BUT, the question is, is there something better out there? Are you willing to PAY for it? If not, then how can one (you) be part of the solution - i.e. making LP better, easier, clearer, more concise etc. even if that only means generating positive constructive criticism. I agree it isn't perfect, it's a work in progress. Remember LP is made up of volunteers, and is not a money making software venture. I find it grates a bit to start a question by saying the software is deficient because ~ I don't have the time (read: am not willing) to learn how to use it. I am also sure that professional editors etc. are forced to work around their software to get it to do what they want. I have never used a piece of saftware that didn't require this. I don't see anything un-professional about invisible notes, constructing chord in polyphony. Do what it takes - that's what the pro's do. If it isn't good enough for you, try something else. I'm trying to use lilypond for an important publication, so I'd be glad to get some real help here! I'll stand behind Graham. The implication here is that his help is not real. Read above comments on volunteers. The folks writing in are human and benefit from a positive like the rest of us. Jonathan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Upro escreveu: Hello! I have been using Lilypond some years ago, without needs for too good formattzig, but now I decided to try to make an edition for a major publisher with lilypond. Interesting! Which one? (etc) If it's really important, you could consider reserving a cut of what the publisher pays to sponsor work on LilyPond. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen LilyPond Software Design -- Code for Music Notation http://www.lilypond-design.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Usability Question
Bert wrote:
Yes! And it *works* !
Rutger
voiceFive = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 4) 'Voice)
{ \voiceOne g''4 ~ \stemDown g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] }
\\ { \voiceThree b4} \\ { \voiceFive d,} \\ { \voiceTwo g,}\\
Bert
I tried the code and found that it worked, but voiceFive has extra
horizontal shift (i.e. \shiftOnn), so the b and d didn't line up
perfectly. Then I tried making the b and d a chord in voice 3, and
found that it worked as well. So this code provides output that is
_very_ close to the scan that was provided.
%Begin Lilypond Code
#(set-global-staff-size 17)
% \version 2.10.7
\includedeutsch.ly
\paper {
#(set-paper-size a4)
}
voiceFive = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 4) 'Voice)
\header {
title = \markup \center-align \italic { Sonata 1ma a Violino
Solo senza Basso di J. S. Bach} }
melody = \relative c' {
\clef treble
\key g \minor
\time 4/4
{ \voiceOne g''4 ~ \stemDown g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] } \\ {
\voiceThree b d,4} \\ { \voiceTwo g,}\\
% { \voiceOne g''4 ~ \stemDown g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] } \\ {
\voiceThree b4} \\ { \voiceFive d,} \\ { \voiceTwo g,}\\
%{ g''4 ~ \stemDown g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] }\\{
b4}\\{d,}\\{ g,}\\
{ c'4} \\ \\ { \tieDown g8[ fis~] fis32[ \slurDown
e( d e fis g a c64 b)]} \\ { a,4 }
|
{fis''4} \\ {\voiceThree \slurDown c8[( c32) \slurUp
d64( c b32 c] \stemDown c16.\trill b64 c d16 a)} \\ {\voiceFour d,8}
}
\score {
\new Staff \melody
\layout { }
}
%End Lilypond Code
Carl
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Re: Usability Question
Carl D. Sorensen wrote:
Bert wrote:
Yes! And it *works* !
Rutger
voiceFive = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 4) 'Voice)
{ \voiceOne g''4 ~ \stemDown g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] }
\\ { \voiceThree b4} \\ { \voiceFive d,} \\ { \voiceTwo g,}\\
Bert
I tried the code and found that it worked, but voiceFive has extra
horizontal shift (i.e. \shiftOnn), so the b and d didn't line up
perfectly. Then I tried making the b and d a chord in voice 3, and
found that it worked as well.
But the whole point of this \voiceFive thingy is that none of the four
notes in the first quarter should line up, and especially not the three
notes with stem upwards.
Rutger
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Re: Usability Question
Rutger Hofman rutger at cs.vu.nl writes: But the whole point of this \voiceFive thingy is that none of the four notes in the first quarter should line up, and especially not the three notes with stem upwards. Rutger I'm not sure I agree with this conclusion. The scan that was provided shows two of the stem-up notes aligned. I suppose that that could be an engraving error from the scanned piece. I'm not sure where one goes to find out if the two notes should be aligned or should be separated (which the voiceFive construct does quite nicely). If the piece in question is properly engraved, then we might want to have LilyPond produce similar behavior. If not, then there's no reason to go after it. BTW, the scanned piece shows a rising beam on the second set of beamed notes, while LilyPond's is horizontal. This is also an engraving difference that might want to be adjusted, or perhaps not. It all depends on the quality of the scanned piece. Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
The scan that was provided shows two of the stem-up notes aligned. I suppose that that could be an engraving error from the scanned piece. It's a polyphonic Bach violin peace: they are separate voices, not chords, they figure melodies (despite there are notes between in the first noise) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: usability question - how to search manual
I admit that not finding the function for a simple line brake was not very smart of me. I have studied the online-manual thouroughly, but it's not easy to find solutions there, and I haven't found them for the descripbed problems. Try the PDF version as it is really easy to search. Also you can search within sites with google (haven't tried this, but imagine it works) It doesn't really matter how easy it is to search the manual if you enter search terms incorrectly - you'll still not find what you're looking for. The original poster spelled break wrong, and I doubt the Lilypond manual discusses mechanisms for slowing down a vehicle! Ah, the hazards of the English language. ;-) Tim Reeves ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Usability Question
Bertalan Fodor wrote: The scan that was provided shows two of the stem-up notes aligned. I suppose that that could be an engraving error from the scanned piece. It's a polyphonic Bach violin peace: they are separate voices, not chords, they figure melodies (despite there are notes between in the first noise) Thanks. I've looked more closely at the sacn (at Rutger's suggestion) and now I see the horizontal separation of the middle two stems. I've been working on setting polyphonic classical guitar music, where there are also multiple voices to figure melodies. As I do so, I'll pay more attention to the small increments of horizontal spacing, as shown in the scan. Thanks for your input. Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Bertalan Fodor wrote: The scan that was provided shows two of the stem-up notes aligned. I suppose that that could be an engraving error from the scanned piece. It's a polyphonic Bach violin peace: they are separate voices, not chords, they figure melodies (despite there are notes between in the first noise) These Sonatas and Partitas by Bach are very famous for the beautiful handwriting in his manuscript. Several publishers sell facsimile of this manuscript. An extremely ambituous attempt to imitate the manuscript as closely as possible but still use computer based typesetting can be found in the Werner Icking archive (the typesetting was done by Werner Icking himself, using musixtex), see http://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/J.S.Bach.php, scroll down to BWV1001. There you can for example notice that all four notes of the first chord actually were written with stem up, but each slightly offset to the right (corresponding to \voiceOne \voiceThree \voiceFive and \voiceSeven in LilyPond). /Mats ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Jonathan Henkelman wrote: Upro jelden at gmail.com writes: I admit that not finding the function for a simple line brake was not very smart of me. I have studied the online-manual thouroughly, but it's not easy to find solutions there, and I haven't found them for the descripbed problems. Try the PDF version as it is really easy to search. Also you can search within sites with google (haven't tried this, but imagine it works) Actually, the index of the manual is fairly ambituous and includes, among others, the search terms breaking lines and line breaks (not to mention that there's a section title Line breaking). I guess the problem is that many people haven't found the index (At www.lilypond.org, click on Documentation for your version of Lilypond, then on User manual and LilyPond index. If you find that some obvious index term is missing, please send a hint to the mailing list, (see http://lilypond.org/web/devel/participating/documentation-adding). /Mats ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
You have received a large number of answers already, but
I'm not sure how many of your original questions have really
been answered. First of all, here's an alternative version of
your code that hopefully is somewhat closer to what you want.
#(set-global-staff-size 17)
% \version 2.10.7
\includedeutsch.ly
\paper {
#(set-paper-size a4)
}
\header {
title = \markup \center-align \italic { Sonata 1ma a Violino Solo
senza
Basso di J. S. Bach}
}
myVoiceOne = {\voiceOne \tieDown}
myVoiceTwo = {\voiceTwo \tieUp}
myVoiceThree = {\voiceThree \tieDown}
myVoiceFive = { #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 4) 'Voice)
\tieDown }
melody = \relative c' {
\clef treble
\key g \minor
\time 4/4
\new Voice {
\voiceOne
g''4 ~ g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] \myVoiceThree
g8[ fis~] fis32[ e( d e fis g a c64 )b] |
c8[~ c32 d64( c b32 c] c16.\trill b64 c d16 )a
}
\new Voice {
\myVoiceThree
b4 s \myVoiceOne c s | fis s
}
\new Voice {\myVoiceFive d,}
\new Voice {\myVoiceTwo g,4 s a s | d8 s s4 }
}
\score {
\new Staff \melody
\layout { }
}
What I did here was
- To keep each voice together over a longer section, not split
them up into half beats (this is a matter of taste, but may
save some typing, especially if you want the same tweak to
apply to a longer section).
- Explicitly instantiate voices instead of using the ... \\ ...
feature.
- Correspondingly, I explicitly specify \voiceOne ...
- Since most of your comments related to the fact that the
ties have the same direction as the stems when you use the
default \voiceOne, ... \voiceFour macros, I defined alternative
versions called \myVoiceOne ... \myVoiceFive, that set the
ties in the opposite direction.
Keep asking and keep reading the manual.
/Mats
Upro wrote:
Hello!
I have been using Lilypond some years ago, without needs for too good
formattzig, but now I decided to try to make an edition for a major
publisher with lilypond.
However, I have found that there are several issues that I find too time
consuming and complicated to rate lilypond as professionally usable.
But being an optimist I decided to post some general questions to see what
others think and know.
My example score is some bars for violin by Bach. Let's go!
1. The score has four voises. All have their own stems. I find it extremely
complicated to arrange stems/notes in the same order (right to left), and
stems in the correct direction.
All solutions I have found in the forum are either rather laborious, or
involve programming. I do not have the intention nor the tie to learn scheme
or improve/recover my knowledge of Python to follow this path.
2. I have not found an easy way to change the placement of ties (over or
below the notes)
3. I have also not found a neatly usable command to try to make a score into
one page, or to force a system/line brake.
4. I have not found a way to make a tie from within a polyphonic passage
into a neiboring honophone section. I used a workaraond by keeping the
adjacent passage within the polyphonic sectin, but I would like to find a
way to avoid that.
I include the cntents of my ilypond file, and a jpg of what I would liem to
see.
I would really appreciate concise and useful help. This is for maybe the
most reknowned publisher and could also be a landmark for lilypond - if I
can achioeve my goal with lilypond (and not Sibelius...).
Here are my comments on the file/score:
a) First chord: I would liem to have the same stem direction/order in my
file as in the image (up-up-up-down from top to bottom)
b) Why do the stems in bar 1, second quarter, point upwards AND the tie is
on top?
c) Bar 1, 4th quarter: Again: Why is the tie on top and not on bottom?
d) 2nd bar, first quarter: As in a) I would like to change the order of the
notes.
e) 2nd bar, first quarter: Two tied eight notes c: Why is the tie not closer
to the noteheads?
f) 2nd bar, second tie: Again, it should be on top.
If I have to continue like this for the rest of this opus magnum I' kill
myself ;-)
TIA, upro
#(set-global-staff-size 17)
% \version 2.10.7
\includedeutsch.ly
\paper {
#(set-paper-size a4)
}
\header {
title = \markup \center-align \italic { Sonata 1ma a Violino Solo
senza
Basso di J. S. Bach}
}
melody = \relative c' {
\clef treble
\key g \minor
\time 4/4
{ g''4 ~ g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] }\\{ b4}\\{d,}\\{
g,}\\
{ c'4} \\ \\ { g8[ fis~] fis32[ e( d e fis g a c64 )b]} \\ { a,4
}
|
{fis''4} \\ {c8[( c32) d64( c b32 c] c16.\trill b64 c d16 )a} \\ {d,8}
}
\score {
\new Staff \melody
\layout { }
}
http://www.nabble.com/file/5663/bach.jpg
--
=
Mats Bengtsson
Signal Processing
Signals, Sensors and Systems
Royal Institute of Technology
Re: Usability Question
Hi, I also have a usability question. I'm using lilypond-2.10.11 (linux executable) on intel centrino 1.4MHz with 256MB of RAM, and I cannot render 10 page chamber piece of music due to lack of memory. after 15 min I stop Layout outputting to 'xxx.ps' and I found outputted 4 pages of 10. If I turn swap off, I'm given Out of memory error. Last year I prepared 30-page orchestral score and I was forced to cut it into 4 parts and process them separately (lily-2.7.35). I remember I left lilypond rendering this piece for one night. It didn't help. I won't mention some memory segm. faults which disappeared when eg. I changed one tuplet to regular eighths (I had to change the piece, fortunately -- my own). So my question is if I have to buy new hardware to be able to use my preferred software? Or whether it would help if I compiled lily myself? Would I be indecently curious if I ask you about your experiences with large lilypond projects (if 10-page piece can be regarded as large) and your hardware? In this point I want to defend Upro, who started this thread. This man wants to typeset some bigger thing, but he doesn't want to fail due to technical problems. And probably these masterpieces of Leipzig Cantor will be typeset with Sibelius. I agree that typing lilypond code in is much faster than doing so with (eg.) Sibelius, I agree that result of raw processing with lilypond is much better. One must be very naive to believe that everything can be coded as program/algorithm. But when it comes to fine tuning the score it becomes real pain. Most things are done with trialerror method, which consumes (depending on score of course) lots of time. With mouse it takes seconds to drag'n'drop such elements. What about hard to achieve marks as double-glissando on violin? To complain more: convert-ly simply doesn't work for me. So all my old projects have to be rewritten line by line. Of course some dirty hacks (someone before mention them?) have to be changed usually to some other ones (like controlled aleatorism notation, modifying stencils with scheme). There was pointed somewhere analogy to TeX/LaTeX. But I can process latex files from eighties of last century, but cannot my last year lilypond work. In my case this would be very optimistic variant. That is my choice to use Lilypond. I agee with limitations. I very often supplement printed scores with black pen (mentioned above double-glissandoes, lastly harp part -- all this graphical stuff). But I don't want to be limited to 5-page scores. Upro, and I, and anyone who professionally deal with music, esp. making visual representation of her, in a long run needs reliable environment. But to stop this nonconstructive criticism I must admit I found LP very handy and useful when I was making short excerpts of larger pieces for embedding in book (theory of music, 400p.). Using Finale/Sibelius/who-knows-what-else I had would kill my self. Certainly. best, ak Ps.sorry for my english -- as I've never been in UK/USA I know it only theoretically. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
First of all, here's an alternative version of your code that hopefully is somewhat closer to what you want. Mats, this also says clashing notecolumns in the first note (and merges them to one position) (with 2.10.11) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Hello, Andrzej: your experiences with large lilypond projects [...] and your hardware? I recently typeset my 42-page chamber opera score (in Lilypond 2.9). If I recall correctly, it took between 1 and 2 minutes to generate the full score (on an Apple MacBook with 2GHz Intel Core Duo). Hope this helps! Kieren. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Andrzej Kopec wrote: I also have a usability question. I'm using lilypond-2.10.11 (linux executable) on intel centrino 1.4MHz with 256MB of RAM, and I cannot render 10 page chamber piece of music due to lack of memory. after 15 min I stop Layout outputting to 'xxx.ps' and I found outputted 4 pages of 10. If I turn swap off, I'm given Out of memory error. Han-Wen has just fixed a large number of memory leaks; try the same file with 2.10.12 when it's released. You don't need to buy new hardware or anything like that. To complain more: convert-ly simply doesn't work for me. That's one of the issues in my odd jobs list. I welcome any help. Ps.sorry for my english -- as I've never been in UK/USA I know it only theoretically. That's ok; people in the USA don't even know English theoretically! :) Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Andrzej Kopec escreveu: I also have a usability question. I'm using lilypond-2.10.11 (linux executable) on intel centrino 1.4MHz with 256MB of RAM, and I cannot render 10 page chamber piece of music due to lack of memory. after 15 min I stop Layout outputting to 'xxx.ps' and I found outputted 4 pages of 10. If I turn swap off, I'm given Out of memory error. Try 2.11/10.12. I've implemented some new memory tracing tools, which indicated that the use of (ice-9 format) routine was eating tremendous amounts of memory. With .12, the memory use should be almost halved. I won't mention some memory segm. faults which disappeared when eg. I changed one tuplet to regular eighths (I had to change the piece, fortunately -- my own). Well, you mentioned them anyway. I take memory corruption and other sorts of heisenbugs *very* seriously, and I want to hear about them. I can't recall reading your bugreport about this. Bugs such as these get priority high in the bugtracker, and they're the first on my list to fix. So my question is if I have to buy new hardware to be able to use my preferred software? Or whether it would help if I compiled lily myself? Would I be indecently curious if I ask you about your experiences with large lilypond projects (if 10-page piece can be regarded as large) and your hardware? I think your best bet is to see if you can upgrade RAM of your machine. Most of the improvements of lilypond seem to come at the expense of memory usage. Other than that, over the years we've added lots more automated formatting tweaks, which should make most of the exotic, hand-coded tweaks superfluous. However, we have to pay for this with CPU and memory. The use of skyline spacing, both horizontal and vertical, comes to mind as an example. Upro, and I, and anyone who professionally deal with music, esp. making visual representation of her, in a long run needs reliable environment. Unfortunately, that's something I can't guarantee, especially for free. However, managing different branches has become a lot easier now that we use GIT. That's why so many of the bugfixes in 2.11 have made it back into 2.10. Still, it's work. I for one, would welcome it if someone would help with backporting bugfixes. With GIT it's not that difficult, but it requires moderate programming knowledge. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen LilyPond Software Design -- Code for Music Notation http://www.lilypond-design.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Hi! For the compiling time, I am surprised that sometimes it takes almost a minute to compile only 3 pages of music for alto, double bass and piano! The fastest is 30 seconds. I am using LilyPond 2.11.11 on a MacBook Intel Core Duo with 512 Mb. For the interface, the best thing for a text entry based interface is that the format and the offset you put on the notes and other symbols will stay the same if you don't change the code in that part of the piece. That is the most annoying with the WYSIWYG interface of Sibelius. Even the beam format might change if you add a note in the measure! And I am not talking about the quality of the font. The stems fall a little besides the notehead and off the beams. It shows in printing. The Feta font is A LOT better. But Sibelius is excellent for its intuitive interface. The entering of most notes and symbols and, most important, the change of position of the symbols is far more easy to do than in LilyPond. For example, entering tempo indications and text spanners in Sibelius is a piece of cake, while working with LilyPond needs good programming skills to do the same, especially if you want it at the place you want it. Thanks to LilyPondTool, moving some symbols (but unfortunately not all) are a little easier. But a GUI interface would be great to see immediately the changes of position of some symbols on the score. This topic had been already discussed in an article on LilyPond by Han-Wenn. LilyPondTool does that partially for some symbols, but not for everything. I am not a programmer. I can't start to program myself to make an interface. But I may suggest some clues for design. It may be possible to have the best of both worlds : text and graphic inputs. Remember WordPerfect? One of the reasons for its success in the 80/90s was the option to enter relatively WYSIWIGly the text (remember the different colors to say Bold or Italic, brrr!) but to be able to SEE the code underneath the format and change it. Maybe it would be a way to design an interface for LilyPond : to be able to enter code by GUI or text. Also, if ever a team want to start to work on this thing, I suggest to look at Berlioz, an almost unknown notation program designed solely for engraving. Here is the site : www.berlioz.tm.fr (only in French) The font is not as inviting as LilyPond (but it is nicely lighter in some ways), but the quality of the layout of notes and the design of slurs is amazing. The way it is designed make it possible to do everything you want without much tweaking and unorthodox ways to bypass the program standards. It is divided in three procedures. The last procedure is almost like an SVG editor where you can move and place everything you want. But one problem about this program is its price : over 600 euros!! If a parallel team could work for an interface which would use the code of Lilypond for engraving but would be easy for a non-programmer to use, many more people would gain interest to it. The text entry alone is allright, but gets very complicated when you want to use all the possibilities of LilyPond to do elaborate scores. I would have give up if it wasn't for LilyPondTool to remind me of the format of the tweaks. That are my big two cents. Regards, Frederic Chiasson ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Frédéric Chiasson wrote: Hi! For the compiling time, I am surprised that sometimes it takes almost a minute to compile only 3 pages of music for alto, double bass and piano! The fastest is 30 seconds. I am using LilyPond 2.11.11 on a MacBook Intel Core Duo with 512 Mb. There have been bug reports complaining about that 2.11.11 is much slower than 2.11.10 and earlier versions, so I'm not sure your numbers are representative for LilyPond in general. /Mats ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Usability Question
Hello!
I have been using Lilypond some years ago, without needs for too good
formattzig, but now I decided to try to make an edition for a major
publisher with lilypond.
However, I have found that there are several issues that I find too time
consuming and complicated to rate lilypond as professionally usable.
But being an optimist I decided to post some general questions to see what
others think and know.
My example score is some bars for violin by Bach. Let's go!
1. The score has four voises. All have their own stems. I find it extremely
complicated to arrange stems/notes in the same order (right to left), and
stems in the correct direction.
All solutions I have found in the forum are either rather laborious, or
involve programming. I do not have the intention nor the tie to learn scheme
or improve/recover my knowledge of Python to follow this path.
2. I have not found an easy way to change the placement of ties (over or
below the notes)
3. I have also not found a neatly usable command to try to make a score into
one page, or to force a system/line brake.
4. I have not found a way to make a tie from within a polyphonic passage
into a neiboring honophone section. I used a workaraond by keeping the
adjacent passage within the polyphonic sectin, but I would like to find a
way to avoid that.
I include the cntents of my ilypond file, and a jpg of what I would liem to
see.
I would really appreciate concise and useful help. This is for maybe the
most reknowned publisher and could also be a landmark for lilypond - if I
can achioeve my goal with lilypond (and not Sibelius...).
Here are my comments on the file/score:
a) First chord: I would liem to have the same stem direction/order in my
file as in the image (up-up-up-down from top to bottom)
b) Why do the stems in bar 1, second quarter, point upwards AND the tie is
on top?
c) Bar 1, 4th quarter: Again: Why is the tie on top and not on bottom?
d) 2nd bar, first quarter: As in a) I would like to change the order of the
notes.
e) 2nd bar, first quarter: Two tied eight notes c: Why is the tie not closer
to the noteheads?
f) 2nd bar, second tie: Again, it should be on top.
If I have to continue like this for the rest of this opus magnum I' kill
myself ;-)
TIA, upro
#(set-global-staff-size 17)
% \version 2.10.7
\includedeutsch.ly
\paper {
#(set-paper-size a4)
}
\header {
title = \markup \center-align \italic { Sonata 1ma a Violino Solo
senza
Basso di J. S. Bach}
}
melody = \relative c' {
\clef treble
\key g \minor
\time 4/4
{ g''4 ~ g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] }\\{ b4}\\{d,}\\{
g,}\\
{ c'4} \\ \\ { g8[ fis~] fis32[ e( d e fis g a c64 )b]} \\
{ a,4 }
|
{fis''4} \\ {c8[( c32) d64( c b32 c] c16.\trill b64 c d16
)a} \\ {d,8}
}
\score {
\new Staff \melody
\layout { }
}
http://www.nabble.com/file/5663/bach.jpg
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Re: Usability Question
Upro wrote: 1. The score has four voises. All have their own stems. I find it extremely complicated to arrange stems/notes in the same order (right to left), and stems in the correct direction. I personally would condense this down to one or possibly two voices. Somebody else might have other suggestions. 2. I have not found an easy way to change the placement of ties (over or below the notes) You can set the #'direction of ties in the latest unstable version; I'm not certain if this new feature exists in stable yet. 3. I have also not found a neatly usable command to try to make a score into one page, or to force a system/line brake. Err, \break ? You can try to make the whole score fit onto a single page by changing the font size. 4. I have not found a way to make a tie from within a polyphonic passage into a neiboring honophone section. I used a workaraond by keeping the adjacent passage within the polyphonic sectin, but I would like to find a way to avoid that. You could fake this with invisible notes. I would really appreciate concise and useful help. This is for maybe the most reknowned publisher and could also be a landmark for lilypond - if I can achioeve my goal with lilypond (and not Sibelius...). I'm glad that you're using lilypond, but I recommend that you read the user manual a bit more carefully -- finding out how to force a linebreak is not hard! There are many other commands and tips in the manual that will help you. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Graham Percival-2 wrote: Upro wrote: 1. The score has four voises. All have their own stems. I find it extremely complicated to arrange stems/notes in the same order (right to left), and stems in the correct direction. I personally would condense this down to one or possibly two voices. Somebody else might have other suggestions. 2. I have not found an easy way to change the placement of ties (over or below the notes) You can set the #'direction of ties in the latest unstable version; I'm not certain if this new feature exists in stable yet. 3. I have also not found a neatly usable command to try to make a score into one page, or to force a system/line brake. Err, \break ? You can try to make the whole score fit onto a single page by changing the font size. 4. I have not found a way to make a tie from within a polyphonic passage into a neiboring honophone section. I used a workaraond by keeping the adjacent passage within the polyphonic sectin, but I would like to find a way to avoid that. You could fake this with invisible notes. I would really appreciate concise and useful help. This is for maybe the most reknowned publisher and could also be a landmark for lilypond - if I can achioeve my goal with lilypond (and not Sibelius...). I'm glad that you're using lilypond, but I recommend that you read the user manual a bit more carefully -- finding out how to force a linebreak is not hard! There are many other commands and tips in the manual that will help you. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user I admit that not finding the function for a simple line brake was not very smart of me. I have studied the online-manual thouroughly, but it's not easy to find solutions there, and I haven't found them for the descripbed problems. Suggestions like condensing a four voiced, polyphonic piece by Bach for an Urtext edition for one of the major publishers seems to me a strange reaction to my query. Also, fake a solution with invisibile notes is not a solution you would like to use in an edition of a 65-page manuscript. Between the line, an answer like that reads like I also don't know it. I'm trying to use lilypond for an important publication, so I'd be glad to get some real help here! Thanks, Upro -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Usability-Question-tf3017097.html#a8400127 Sent from the Gnu - Lilypond - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Upro wrote: Graham Percival-2 wrote: I personally would condense this down to one or possibly two voices. Somebody else might have other suggestions. Suggestions like condensing a four voiced, polyphonic piece by Bach for an Urtext edition for one of the major publishers seems to me a strange reaction to my query. Between the line, an answer like that reads like I also don't know it. Umm, yes. That's precisely what Somebody else might have other suggestions means. I'm trying to use lilypond for an important publication, so I'd be glad to get some real help here! I gave you real help -- out of your four questions, I answered two of them completely. I didn't know how to do everything, so I gave you the best answer I could. BTW, when you're asking for real help, it's a good idea to be polite. - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
1. The score has four voises. All have their own stems. I find it
extremely
complicated to arrange stems/notes in the same order (right to left), and
stems in the correct direction.
I personally would condense this down to one or possibly two voices.
Somebody else might have other suggestions.
No, that's not right. It's a polyphonic piece.LilyPond handles different
polyphonic voices very well, I think you can use \voiceOne etc. to
override default order.
2. I have not found an easy way to change the placement of ties (over or
below the notes)
You can set the #'direction of ties in the latest unstable version; I'm
not certain if this new feature exists in stable yet.
What's the problem with \tieUp and \tieDown?
3. I have also not found a neatly usable command to try to make a score
into
one page, or to force a system/line brake.
Err, \break ?
You can try to make the whole score fit onto a single page by changing
the font size.
Using system-count in paper block can help also.
I admit that not finding the function for a simple line brake was not very
smart of me. I have studied the online-manual thouroughly, but it's not easy
to find solutions there, and I haven't found them for the descripbed
problems.
What would have happened if you searched for the text line brake in
the manual?
Also, fake a solution with invisibile notes is not a solution you would like
to use in an edition of a 65-page manuscript.
Yes, it is. And actually this is exactly the way you would do this in
Finale, for example. Using fake notes a very easy way. You just write:
{ c d ~ \hideNotes e \unHideNotes } \\ { f g e}
(And you should also think about whether the tied notes are not in the
same voice)
I'm trying to use lilypond for an important publication, so I'd be glad to
get some real help here!
I think you do get.
Bert
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Re: Usability Question
Bertalan Fodor wrote:
Graham Percival-2 wrote:
Upro wrote:
1. The score has four voises. All have their own stems. I find it
extremely
complicated to arrange stems/notes in the same order (right to
left), and
stems in the correct direction.
I personally would condense this down to one or possibly two voices.
Somebody else might have other suggestions.
No, that's not right. It's a polyphonic piece.LilyPond handles different
polyphonic voices very well, I think you can use \voiceOne etc. to
override default order.
I also tried this with \voiceOne etc (with version 2.8.8, admittedly),
and couldn't get the first chord to print as 4 different voices of which
three have upward stems. Lilypond gives me warning: ignoring too many
clashing note columns, and collapses all three into one chord. If we
would have \voiceFive, that would solve the issue.
4. I have not found a way to make a tie from within a polyphonic passage
into a neiboring honophone section. I used a workaraond by keeping the
adjacent passage within the polyphonic sectin, but I would like to find a
way to avoid that.
The section on Explicitly instantiating voices (6.6.2. in my version)
gives an example for a slur. For your case, the first two quarter notes
might look like:
\voiceOne
\new Voice=3 { \voiceThree b'4}
\new Voice=2 { \voiceTwo \stemUp d,}
\new Voice=4 { \voiceFour g,}
{ \tieUp g''4 ~ }
\oneVoice g32[ f( es d c b a b64 g)]
then switch to voiceThree (for the horizontal placement at the next
quarter note):
\voiceThree
\new Voice=1 { \voiceOne fis'4}
\new Voice=2 { \voiceTwo d,8 s }
{ \tieDown c'8[ ~ }
\oneVoice \stemUp c32( d64 c b32 c] \stemNeutral c16.[\trill b64 c
d16 a])
Graham, I think he doesn't intend to be impolite. He thought you had
missed an important point in his question, and pointed that out maybe
too concisely.
Rutger
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Re: Usability Question
I also tried this with \voiceOne etc (with version 2.8.8, admittedly), and couldn't get the first chord to print as 4 different voices of which three have upward stems. Lilypond gives me warning: ignoring too many clashing note columns, and collapses all three into one chord. If we would have \voiceFive, that would solve the issue. If you look at the definition of voice you will see: voiceOne = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 0) 'Voice) voiceTwo = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 1) 'Voice) voiceThree =#(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 2) 'Voice) voiceFour = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 3) 'Voice) So voiceFive shoudl be possible :-) Bert ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Bertalan Fodor wrote: I also tried this with \voiceOne etc (with version 2.8.8, admittedly), and couldn't get the first chord to print as 4 different voices of which three have upward stems. Lilypond gives me warning: ignoring too many clashing note columns, and collapses all three into one chord. If we would have \voiceFive, that would solve the issue. If you look at the definition of voice you will see: voiceOne = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 0) 'Voice) voiceTwo = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 1) 'Voice) voiceThree =#(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 2) 'Voice) voiceFour = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 3) 'Voice) So voiceFive shoudl be possible :-) Bert Yes! And it *works* ! Rutger ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Usability Question
Rutger Hofman rutger at cs.vu.nl writes:
Bertalan Fodor wrote:
I also tried this with \voiceOne etc (with version 2.8.8, admittedly),
and couldn't get the first chord to print as 4 different voices of
which three have upward stems. Lilypond gives me warning: ignoring
too many clashing note columns, and collapses all three into one
chord. If we would have \voiceFive, that would solve the issue.
If you look at the definition of voice you will see:
voiceOne = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 0) 'Voice)
voiceTwo = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 1) 'Voice)
voiceThree =#(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 2) 'Voice)
voiceFour = #(context-spec-music (make-voice-props-set 3) 'Voice)
So voiceFive shoudl be possible
Bert
Yes! And it *works* !
Rutger
Could you post your code, please? I haven't been able to make it work. I've
also been having a problem with four voices on one staff, in that collisions are
only resolved between two notes, and if you put three notes in the same
horizontal position (e.g. three notes with \stemUp) you get the warning about
too many clashing note columns.
I've already reported a bug (see issue #202), but it's being considered as an
enhancement, not a bug, since the code works properly for two voices.
I've been able to, rather easily, fix the issues that were identified with ties
and slurs so as to make the LilyPond output match the .jpg. But I couldn't make
the first chord work.
Here's the code
%% Start code here
#(set-global-staff-size 17)
% \version 2.10.7
\includedeutsch.ly
\paper {
#(set-paper-size a4)
}
\header {
title = \markup \center-align \italic { Sonata 1ma a Violino Solo
senza Basso
di J. S. Bach} }
melody = \relative c' {
\clef treble
\key g \minor
\time 4/4
{ g''4 ~ \stemDown g32[ f( es d c b a b64 )g] }\\{
b4}\\{d,}\\{ g,}\\
{ c'4} \\ \\ { \tieDown g8[ fis~] fis32[ \slurDown e( d e
fis g a c64 b)]}
\\ { a,4 }
|
{fis''4} \\ {\voiceThree \slurDown c8[( c32) \slurUp d64( c
b32 c]
\stemDown c16.\trill b64 c d16 a)} \\ {\voiceFour d,8}
}
\score {
\new Staff \melody
\layout { }
}
%% End of Code
Carl
Carl
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