Re: \lyrics, was Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[David Wright]

On Mon 06 Nov 2017 at 09:10:54 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> David Wright  writes:
> 
> > On Sun 05 Nov 2017 at 19:29:27 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> >
> >> It's very thinly documented since it just confuses people.  As you
> >> can see.
> >
> > Well it would do if they don't find it in the documentation as
> > they have to either guess or look for places where it's used
> > correctly, as opposed to p142 of the LM where it does appear
> > to be a mistake.
> >
> >> At one time it was entirely undocumented even I think.
> >
> > Intentionally?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> >> > so I thought I'd look it up. It took a while to find it in the NR
> >> > as it's rather hidden away under §5.4 (and with no index entry).
> >> 
> >> Intentionally I think.
> >
> > That seems ridiculous. Many posts here are greeted with responses like
> > "Why didn't you look it up." Perhaps the answer lies here.
> 
> I have to see yet any post where someone unwittingly used \lyrics and
> the answer was "why didn't you look it up".

That's not what I said.

> Part of the reason is that
> we don't even document it, and there were long discussions about
> removing it and its ilk altogether.

That's no reason for not documenting it, resulting in people who
come across it elsewhere wasting their time looking for it.

The conventional way for dealing with features like this is to
document it as "deprecated, may be withdrawn in a future version",
or like the attached.

> > I don't have enough background information to know whether the
> > introduction of "\lyrics" was to improve consistency with its
> > friends, or just for brevity (popular in the unix world).
> 
> Neither.  It was there before the exposure of contexts and modes was
> formalized.  It was just \lyrics, \chords, \figures, \notes then.

Cheers,
David.
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Re: \lyrics, was Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Sun 05 Nov 2017 at 19:29:27 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> It's very thinly documented since it just confuses people.  As you
>> can see.
>
> Well it would do if they don't find it in the documentation as
> they have to either guess or look for places where it's used
> correctly, as opposed to p142 of the LM where it does appear
> to be a mistake.
>
>> At one time it was entirely undocumented even I think.
>
> Intentionally?

Yes.

>> > so I thought I'd look it up. It took a while to find it in the NR
>> > as it's rather hidden away under §5.4 (and with no index entry).
>> 
>> Intentionally I think.
>
> That seems ridiculous. Many posts here are greeted with responses like
> "Why didn't you look it up." Perhaps the answer lies here.

I have to see yet any post where someone unwittingly used \lyrics and
the answer was "why didn't you look it up".  Part of the reason is that
we don't even document it, and there were long discussions about
removing it and its ilk altogether.

> I don't have enough background information to know whether the
> introduction of "\lyrics" was to improve consistency with its
> friends, or just for brevity (popular in the unix world).

Neither.  It was there before the exposure of contexts and modes was
formalized.  It was just \lyrics, \chords, \figures, \notes then.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: \lyrics, was Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[David Wright]

On Sun 05 Nov 2017 at 22:31:01 (+0100), Noeck wrote:
> Hi David (W.),
> 
> > I don't have enough background information to know whether the
> > introduction of "\lyrics" was to improve consistency with its
> > friends, or just for brevity (popular in the unix world).
> > Yesterday I was leaning to the latter, in which case one could
> > imagine contractions like "\new Voice" → "\voice".
> 
> As you wrote yourself below, these shorthands are for places where you
> would have to specify both a new context and an entry mode otherwise:
> 
> \new ChordNames \chordmode { … }->  \chords
> \new DrumVoice \drummode { … }  ->  \drums
> \new FiguredBass \figuremode { … }  ->  \figures
> \new Lyrics \lyricmode { … }->  \lyrics
> 
> For normal music you don't need to specify the input mode (\notemode)
> and the staff is created automatically. So in some way
> \new Staff \notemode { … }   has the shorthand  { … }.
> 
> > However, after stumbling on NR p589, I see that this change
> > is being, or has been, applied only to mode-specifying commands
> > so it wouldn't affect the commands alluded to above.
> 
> Yes.

Thanks for all the replies, and to Simon for the reference; I'd
never looked through the Administrative Policies.

BTW it's perhaps less of a surprise that \lyrics is new to me because
I ran grep \new Lyrics \lyricmode over my sources and the only hits
were MIDI imports from rosegarden and MWEs from here. All my own
lyrics are contained in simple variables with a mode but no context.

> PS: If one alreay understood the different modes and contexts, this
> cheatsheet might help to remember them:
> http://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_en.pdf (on the right on
> the same line as the captions).

That's great; I've added it to your other cribs: the visual index and
the spacing.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: \lyrics, was Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[Noeck]

Hi David (W.),

> I don't have enough background information to know whether the
> introduction of "\lyrics" was to improve consistency with its
> friends, or just for brevity (popular in the unix world).
> Yesterday I was leaning to the latter, in which case one could
> imagine contractions like "\new Voice" → "\voice".

As you wrote yourself below, these shorthands are for places where you
would have to specify both a new context and an entry mode otherwise:

\new ChordNames \chordmode { … }->  \chords
\new DrumVoice \drummode { … }  ->  \drums
\new FiguredBass \figuremode { … }  ->  \figures
\new Lyrics \lyricmode { … }->  \lyrics

For normal music you don't need to specify the input mode (\notemode)
and the staff is created automatically. So in some way
\new Staff \notemode { … }   has the shorthand  { … }.

> However, after stumbling on NR p589, I see that this change
> is being, or has been, applied only to mode-specifying commands
> so it wouldn't affect the commands alluded to above.

Yes.

Cheers,
Joram



PS: If one alreay understood the different modes and contexts, this
cheatsheet might help to remember them:
http://joramberger.de/files/lilypond_sheet_2.18_en.pdf (on the right on
the same line as the captions).

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Re: \lyrics, was Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[David Wright]

On Sun 05 Nov 2017 at 19:29:27 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> David Wright  writes:
> 
> > On Sat 04 Nov 2017 at 02:10:53 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> >> Jérôme Plût  writes:
> >> 
> >> > I tried applying the contents of
> >> > http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/flexible-vertical-spacing-within-systems
> >> > to move the figured bass a bit closer to the staff:
> >> >
> >> > \version "2.19.54"
> >> > \score { { \new StaffGroup <<
> >> >   \new Staff { \clef "F" c d e f }
> >> >   \new Lyrics \with {
> >> >   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing =
> >> >   #'((basic-distance . 1) (stretchability . 0))
> >> >   } \lyrics { "c"4 "d" "e" "f" }
> >> >   \new FiguredBass \with {
> >> >   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-nonstaff-spacing =
> >> >   #'((basic-distance . 1))
> >> >   } \figures { <5>4 <5>4 <5> <5> }
> >> >>> } \layout { indent = 0 \cm } 
> >> >
> >> > Yet this stupid figured bass does not move, even if I input a
> >> > ridiculously large value for 'basic-distance.
> >> >
> >> > What is happening?
> >> 
> >> \lyrics is the same as \new Lyrics \lyricmode ... so your own \new
> >> Lyrics is contentless.  Same with \figures and \new FiguredBass
> >> \figuremode ...
> >> 
> >> I find that overriding the settings (both!) in the Lyrics context works
> >> fine.
> >> 
> >> Either use the \...mode constructs or use \lyrics \with { ... } ... and
> >> \figures \with { ... } ... .
> >
> > \lyrics is new to me
> 
> It's very thinly documented since it just confuses people.  As you can
see.

Well it would do if they don't find it in the documentation as
they have to either guess or look for places where it's used
correctly, as opposed to p142 of the LM where it does appear
to be a mistake.

> At one time it was entirely undocumented even I think.

Intentionally?

> > so I thought I'd look it up. It took a while to find it in the NR as
> > it's rather hidden away under §5.4 (and with no index entry).
> 
> Intentionally I think.

That seems ridiculous. Many posts here are greeted with responses
like "Why didn't you look it up." Perhaps the answer lies here.

> > I've yet to figure out the paragraph in changes.pdf starting
> > "\lyricsto and \addLyrics have been harmonized." There seems to be
> > quite a lot in it. (I assume \addLyrics there and on p290 of NR are
> > typos.)
> 
> I just came back from a conference where I had two talks about music
> creation under GNU/Linux.  So if nobody else can be bothered, trigger me
> again in a few days.

I won't bother, thanks.

> > But in the example on p142 of the LM, is that a mistake?
> > Would I be right in thinking that
> > words = \lyrics { the text }
> > is a more expensive construction than
> > words = \lyricmode { the text }
> 
> The former is short for
> 
> words = \new Lyrics \lyricmode { the text }

OK, so it's a mistake.

> > BTW is there a move towards \voice, \staff, \grandstaff, etc?
> 
> I have no idea what you are even talking about here.

I don't have enough background information to know whether the
introduction of "\lyrics" was to improve consistency with its
friends, or just for brevity (popular in the unix world).
Yesterday I was leaning to the latter, in which case one could
imagine contractions like "\new Voice" → "\voice".

However, after stumbling on NR p589, I see that this change
is being, or has been, applied only to mode-specifying commands
so it wouldn't affect the commands alluded to above.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: \lyrics, was Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[Simon Albrecht]

On 05.11.2017 04:10, David Wright wrote:

BTW is there a move towards \voice, \staff, \grandstaff, etc?


No, there isn’t. You might be interested in


Best, Simon

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Re: \lyrics, was Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[Thomas Morley]

2017-11-05 19:29 GMT+01:00 David Kastrup :
> David Wright  writes:
>
>> On Sat 04 Nov 2017 at 02:10:53 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
>>> Jérôme Plût  writes:
>>>
>>> > I tried applying the contents of
>>> > http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/flexible-vertical-spacing-within-systems
>>> > to move the figured bass a bit closer to the staff:
>>> >
>>> > \version "2.19.54"
>>> > \score { { \new StaffGroup <<
>>> >   \new Staff { \clef "F" c d e f }
>>> >   \new Lyrics \with {
>>> >   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing =
>>> >   #'((basic-distance . 1) (stretchability . 0))
>>> >   } \lyrics { "c"4 "d" "e" "f" }
>>> >   \new FiguredBass \with {
>>> >   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-nonstaff-spacing =
>>> >   #'((basic-distance . 1))
>>> >   } \figures { <5>4 <5>4 <5> <5> }
>>> >>> } \layout { indent = 0 \cm }
>>> >
>>> > Yet this stupid figured bass does not move, even if I input a
>>> > ridiculously large value for 'basic-distance.
>>> >
>>> > What is happening?
>>>
>>> \lyrics is the same as \new Lyrics \lyricmode ... so your own \new
>>> Lyrics is contentless.  Same with \figures and \new FiguredBass
>>> \figuremode ...
>>>
>>> I find that overriding the settings (both!) in the Lyrics context works
>>> fine.
>>>
>>> Either use the \...mode constructs or use \lyrics \with { ... } ... and
>>> \figures \with { ... } ... .
>>
>> \lyrics is new to me
>
> It's very thinly documented since it just confuses people.  As you can
> see.  At one time it was entirely undocumented even I think.
>
>> so I thought I'd look it up. It took a while to find it in the NR as
>> it's rather hidden away under §5.4 (and with no index entry).
>
> Intentionally I think.
>
>> I've yet to figure out the paragraph in changes.pdf starting
>> "\lyricsto and \addLyrics have been harmonized." There seems to be
>> quite a lot in it. (I assume \addLyrics there and on p290 of NR are
>> typos.)
>
> I just came back from a conference where I had two talks about music
> creation under GNU/Linux.  So if nobody else can be bothered, trigger me
> again in a few days.

https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/5233/

Though, I didn't manage to upload patched 2.20-changes.
Doing so from the stable-2-20 branch would include a wagonload of other changes.
How to do so?

>> But in the example on p142 of the LM, is that a mistake?

I changed this for consistency reasons as well.

>> Would I be right in thinking that
>> words = \lyrics { the text }
>> is a more expensive construction than
>> words = \lyricmode { the text }
>
> The former is short for
>
> words = \new Lyrics \lyricmode { the text }
>
>> BTW is there a move towards \voice, \staff, \grandstaff, etc?
>
> I have no idea what you are even talking about here.
>
> --
> David Kastrup


Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: \lyrics, was Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Sat 04 Nov 2017 at 02:10:53 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
>> Jérôme Plût  writes:
>> 
>> > I tried applying the contents of
>> > http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/flexible-vertical-spacing-within-systems
>> > to move the figured bass a bit closer to the staff:
>> >
>> > \version "2.19.54"
>> > \score { { \new StaffGroup <<
>> >   \new Staff { \clef "F" c d e f }
>> >   \new Lyrics \with {
>> >   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing =
>> >   #'((basic-distance . 1) (stretchability . 0))
>> >   } \lyrics { "c"4 "d" "e" "f" }
>> >   \new FiguredBass \with {
>> >   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-nonstaff-spacing =
>> >   #'((basic-distance . 1))
>> >   } \figures { <5>4 <5>4 <5> <5> }
>> >>> } \layout { indent = 0 \cm } 
>> >
>> > Yet this stupid figured bass does not move, even if I input a
>> > ridiculously large value for 'basic-distance.
>> >
>> > What is happening?
>> 
>> \lyrics is the same as \new Lyrics \lyricmode ... so your own \new
>> Lyrics is contentless.  Same with \figures and \new FiguredBass
>> \figuremode ...
>> 
>> I find that overriding the settings (both!) in the Lyrics context works
>> fine.
>> 
>> Either use the \...mode constructs or use \lyrics \with { ... } ... and
>> \figures \with { ... } ... .
>
> \lyrics is new to me

It's very thinly documented since it just confuses people.  As you can
see.  At one time it was entirely undocumented even I think.

> so I thought I'd look it up. It took a while to find it in the NR as
> it's rather hidden away under §5.4 (and with no index entry).

Intentionally I think.

> I've yet to figure out the paragraph in changes.pdf starting
> "\lyricsto and \addLyrics have been harmonized." There seems to be
> quite a lot in it. (I assume \addLyrics there and on p290 of NR are
> typos.)

I just came back from a conference where I had two talks about music
creation under GNU/Linux.  So if nobody else can be bothered, trigger me
again in a few days.

> But in the example on p142 of the LM, is that a mistake?
> Would I be right in thinking that
> words = \lyrics { the text }
> is a more expensive construction than
> words = \lyricmode { the text }

The former is short for

words = \new Lyrics \lyricmode { the text }

> BTW is there a move towards \voice, \staff, \grandstaff, etc?

I have no idea what you are even talking about here.

-- 
David Kastrup

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\lyrics, was Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[David Wright]

On Sat 04 Nov 2017 at 02:10:53 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> Jérôme Plût  writes:
> 
> > I tried applying the contents of
> > http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/flexible-vertical-spacing-within-systems
> > to move the figured bass a bit closer to the staff:
> >
> > \version "2.19.54"
> > \score { { \new StaffGroup <<
> >   \new Staff { \clef "F" c d e f }
> >   \new Lyrics \with {
> >   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing =
> >   #'((basic-distance . 1) (stretchability . 0))
> >   } \lyrics { "c"4 "d" "e" "f" }
> >   \new FiguredBass \with {
> >   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-nonstaff-spacing =
> >   #'((basic-distance . 1))
> >   } \figures { <5>4 <5>4 <5> <5> }
> >>> } \layout { indent = 0 \cm } 
> >
> > Yet this stupid figured bass does not move, even if I input a
> > ridiculously large value for 'basic-distance.
> >
> > What is happening?
> 
> \lyrics is the same as \new Lyrics \lyricmode ... so your own \new
> Lyrics is contentless.  Same with \figures and \new FiguredBass
> \figuremode ...
> 
> I find that overriding the settings (both!) in the Lyrics context works
> fine.
> 
> Either use the \...mode constructs or use \lyrics \with { ... } ... and
> \figures \with { ... } ... .

\lyrics is new to me so I thought I'd look it up. It took a while
to find it in the NR as it's rather hidden away under §5.4 (and
with no index entry).

I've yet to figure out the paragraph in changes.pdf starting
"\lyricsto and \addLyrics have been harmonized." There seems
to be quite a lot in it. (I assume \addLyrics there and on
p290 of NR are typos.)

But in the example on p142 of the LM, is that a mistake?
Would I be right in thinking that
words = \lyrics { the text }
is a more expensive construction than
words = \lyricmode { the text }

BTW is there a move towards \voice, \staff, \grandstaff, etc?

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Vertical spacing of figured bass

[David Kastrup]

Jérôme Plût  writes:

> I tried applying the contents of
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/flexible-vertical-spacing-within-systems
> to move the figured bass a bit closer to the staff:
>
> \version "2.19.54"
> \score { { \new StaffGroup <<
>   \new Staff { \clef "F" c d e f }
>   \new Lyrics \with {
>   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing =
>   #'((basic-distance . 1) (stretchability . 0))
>   } \lyrics { "c"4 "d" "e" "f" }
>   \new FiguredBass \with {
>   \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-nonstaff-spacing =
>   #'((basic-distance . 1))
>   } \figures { <5>4 <5>4 <5> <5> }
>>> } \layout { indent = 0 \cm } 
>
> Yet this stupid figured bass does not move, even if I input a
> ridiculously large value for 'basic-distance.
>
> What is happening?

\lyrics is the same as \new Lyrics \lyricmode ... so your own \new
Lyrics is contentless.  Same with \figures and \new FiguredBass
\figuremode ...

I find that overriding the settings (both!) in the Lyrics context works
fine.

Either use the \...mode constructs or use \lyrics \with { ... } ... and
\figures \with { ... } ... .

-- 
David Kastrup

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Vertical spacing of figured bass

[Jérôme Plût]

I tried applying the contents of
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/flexible-vertical-spacing-within-systems
to move the figured bass a bit closer to the staff:

\version "2.19.54"
\score { { \new StaffGroup <<
  \new Staff { \clef "F" c d e f }
  \new Lyrics \with {
  \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing =
  #'((basic-distance . 1) (stretchability . 0))
  } \lyrics { "c"4 "d" "e" "f" }
  \new FiguredBass \with {
  \override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-nonstaff-spacing =
  #'((basic-distance . 1))
  } \figures { <5>4 <5>4 <5> <5> }
>> } \layout { indent = 0 \cm } 

Yet this stupid figured bass does not move, even if I input a
ridiculously large value for 'basic-distance.

What is happening?

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