Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
2013/12/7 Joseph Rushton Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net: On 07/12/13 19:18, Janek Warchoł wrote: ? Have you looked at Eja Mater awful Finale.pdf? Do you consider the issues marked in red minor? They actually make it very difficult to sing the rhythm correctly! That one example in bar 69 is very ouch, but it's the kind of problem that would be an issue for sightreading only -- you'd fix it and move on. My experience says otherwise (maybe because my choir is not professional): we continued to sing this moment badly for the next 5 years. I have to say that I do wonder if that was user error, though -- because I never came up with such a catastrophic misalignment when I was using Finale. I have seen it about 10 times already, in scores coming from different people. I can send you more examples in private. At a guess, perhaps caused by the user entering more notes than could fit in the bar, then deleting some of them, or otherwise correcting note lengths? No idea. The one in bar 80 doesn't strike me as much of an issue. An irritation but not in any way a serious problem, because it isn't out of sync with anything else horizontally. I was far more concerned about the placement of the dots on the dotted 8ths, because that _did_ seem like something that could jar the reading of the single line parts, even when you know the rhythm. I don't mean to dismiss your concerns here, but I think that these problems are small fry in the scale of the kinds of illegibility or ambiguity or simply reading difficulty that there can be in parts put in front of musicians. You probably haven't seen some of the hand-written parts (from reputable publishers!) that I have ... :-) Well, if we're speaking of hand-written stuff, then yes. But as far as the engraved output from notation software, i havent' seen much worse problems. Do you have a spare expert Finale user? Because the problem is that on the *LilyPond* mailing list it's hard to find expert Finale users. We'd have to hire someone, and that costs money. No, but I imagine that if you went on the Finale mailing list and said, Hey, we're trying out this challenge as part of a drive to test and improve our usability, anyone up for it? you'd get some volunteers. You don't need a super-hot-whizzkid-who-works-for-Bärenreiter, you just need someone who is competent and capable and knows their way around the software. ok, sounds reasonable. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On 08/12/13 22:42, Janek Warchoł wrote: My experience says otherwise (maybe because my choir is not professional): we continued to sing this moment badly for the next 5 years. Well, then your complaint is certainly valid! :-) I have seen it about 10 times already, in scores coming from different people. I can send you more examples in private. Question -- were these all or mostly vocal works? I don't remember any similar examples from my own use of Finale, but it's been quite a long while, and of course I was producing instrumental works. I have a feeling the inclusion of lyrics might be affecting the spacing. Well, if we're speaking of hand-written stuff, then yes. But as far as the engraved output from notation software, i havent' seen much worse problems. I have, and in a published score at that, but I think it was the fault of an earlier version of one of these notation programs, and almost certainly a publisher who didn't know how to use it (and obviously didn't care about quality control). ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
2013/12/8 Joseph Rushton Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net: On 08/12/13 22:42, Janek Warchoł wrote: I have seen it about 10 times already, in scores coming from different people. I can send you more examples in private. Question -- were these all or mostly vocal works? yes. I have a feeling the inclusion of lyrics might be affecting the spacing. indeed. Well, if we're speaking of hand-written stuff, then yes. But as far as the engraved output from notation software, i havent' seen much worse problems. I have, and in a published score at that, but I think it was the fault of an earlier version of one of these notation programs, and almost certainly a publisher who didn't know how to use it (and obviously didn't care about quality control). Yeah, that's sad... Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
2013/12/5 Ryan McClure ryanmichaelmccl...@gmail.com: A quick question--sorry to clog the mailling list--but what are the rules concerning copyright with this sort of thing? Would all works have to be public domain/approved by the copyright holder? I have explicit permission from the author of Eja, Mater Finale engraving for using it in this comparison. As for the other materials, they are short fragments and fair use (or critical/scholarly purposes) laws should apply. 2013/12/6 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: Shane Brandes sh...@grayskies.net writes: The U.S. has the concept of fair use see 17 U.S.C. § 107 But we want LilyPond to be distributable in more than just the U.S.A. Who said that i want to make these comparisons part of LilyPond itself? I'm talking about creating a library of resources related to lilypond, but they don't have to be in the lilypond itself. 2013/12/6 Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com: In particular, I would say that anything used should be incontrovertibly in the public domain (i.e., the older, the better). This is just impossible with comparisons like these ones - the finale/sibelius engravings cannot be old enough to be in public domain. best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/12/6 Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com: In particular, I would say that anything used should be incontrovertibly in the public domain (i.e., the older, the better). This is just impossible with comparisons like these ones - the finale/sibelius engravings cannot be old enough to be in public domain. Indeed. However, if someone can make new engravings from music that is in public domain and release or license them to the project, that's a different story. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
2013/12/7 Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com: On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/12/6 Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com: In particular, I would say that anything used should be incontrovertibly in the public domain (i.e., the older, the better). This is just impossible with comparisons like these ones - the finale/sibelius engravings cannot be old enough to be in public domain. Indeed. However, if someone can make new engravings from music that is in public domain and release or license them to the project, that's a different story. That'd be nice, but: - virtually noone has time to do this - there's actually a point in making a comparison with publicly available scores: compare LilyPond output to what you can get from a publisher ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
2013/12/6 Joseph Rushton Wakeling joseph.wakeling@webdrak What Finale version are you using to generate these examples? They weren't created by me; i don't know the version (but the Eja Mater is probably 2003 or 2005). I hate to say this, but from my point of view (as a Lilypond user and enthusiast) I think that rather than favouring Lilypond, this rather supports the contention that in general Finale's output is good enough. I presume what you have there is untweaked Finale engraving, and many of the issues you identify are very minor or most likely easily fixed. Have you looked at Eja Mater awful Finale.pdf? Do you consider the issues marked in red minor? They actually make it very difficult to sing the rhythm correctly! If you want a real comparison, give two expert users -- one of Finale, one of Lilypond -- the same score and give them an hour to engrave as much as they can, with the goal that every single bar they engrave is perfect. Then compare what they achieve. Do you have a spare expert Finale user? Because the problem is that on the *LilyPond* mailing list it's hard to find expert Finale users. We'd have to hire someone, and that costs money. Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
- Original Message - From: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com To: Joseph Rushton Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net Cc: LilyPond Users lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 6:18 PM Subject: Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials 2013/12/6 Joseph Rushton Wakeling joseph.wakeling@webdrak What Finale version are you using to generate these examples? They weren't created by me; i don't know the version (but the Eja Mater is probably 2003 or 2005). I hate to say this, but from my point of view (as a Lilypond user and enthusiast) I think that rather than favouring Lilypond, this rather supports the contention that in general Finale's output is good enough. I presume what you have there is untweaked Finale engraving, and many of the issues you identify are very minor or most likely easily fixed. Have you looked at Eja Mater awful Finale.pdf? Do you consider the issues marked in red minor? They actually make it very difficult to sing the rhythm correctly! If you want a real comparison, give two expert users -- one of Finale, one of Lilypond -- the same score and give them an hour to engrave as much as they can, with the goal that every single bar they engrave is perfect. Then compare what they achieve. Do you have a spare expert Finale user? Because the problem is that on the *LilyPond* mailing list it's hard to find expert Finale users. We'd have to hire someone, and that costs money. Janek I have often offered to create Sibelius 7 versions. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On 07/12/13 19:18, Janek Warchoł wrote: Have you looked at Eja Mater awful Finale.pdf? Do you consider the issues marked in red minor? They actually make it very difficult to sing the rhythm correctly! That one example in bar 69 is very ouch, but it's the kind of problem that would be an issue for sightreading only -- you'd fix it and move on. I agree it's nastier for choral singing (where everyone has the score) compared to instrumental playing, where you'd have just the single part and so only the conductor would have to handle that rhythmic clash. I have to say that I do wonder if that was user error, though -- because I never came up with such a catastrophic misalignment when I was using Finale. At a guess, perhaps caused by the user entering more notes than could fit in the bar, then deleting some of them, or otherwise correcting note lengths? The one in bar 80 doesn't strike me as much of an issue. An irritation but not in any way a serious problem, because it isn't out of sync with anything else horizontally. I was far more concerned about the placement of the dots on the dotted 8ths, because that _did_ seem like something that could jar the reading of the single line parts, even when you know the rhythm. I don't mean to dismiss your concerns here, but I think that these problems are small fry in the scale of the kinds of illegibility or ambiguity or simply reading difficulty that there can be in parts put in front of musicians. You probably haven't seen some of the hand-written parts (from reputable publishers!) that I have ... :-) Do you have a spare expert Finale user? Because the problem is that on the *LilyPond* mailing list it's hard to find expert Finale users. We'd have to hire someone, and that costs money. No, but I imagine that if you went on the Finale mailing list and said, Hey, we're trying out this challenge as part of a drive to test and improve our usability, anyone up for it? you'd get some volunteers. You don't need a super-hot-whizzkid-who-works-for-Bärenreiter, you just need someone who is competent and capable and knows their way around the software. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Janek Warchoł wrote 2013/12/6 Joseph Rushton Wakeling lt;joseph.wakeling@webdrak gt; What Finale version are you using to generate these examples? They weren't created by me; i don't know the version (but the Eja Mater is probably 2003 or 2005). I hate to say this, but from my point of view (as a Lilypond user and enthusiast) I think that rather than favouring Lilypond, this rather supports the contention that in general Finale's output is good enough. I presume what you have there is untweaked Finale engraving, and many of the issues you identify are very minor or most likely easily fixed. Have you looked at Eja Mater awful Finale.pdf? Do you consider the issues marked in red minor? They actually make it very difficult to sing the rhythm correctly! If you want a real comparison, give two expert users -- one of Finale, one of Lilypond -- the same score and give them an hour to engrave as much as they can, with the goal that every single bar they engrave is perfect. Then compare what they achieve. Do you have a spare expert Finale user? Because the problem is that on the *LilyPond* mailing list it's hard to find expert Finale users. We'd have to hire someone, and that costs money. Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@ https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user I could assist with Finale 2014 though I hesitate to call myself an 'expert' in Finale. Power user maybe, but no expert. Does that help? - composer | sound designer LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) -- http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/engraving-comparisons-and-other-promotional-materials-tp155133p155325.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On 07/12/13 19:39, SoundsFromSound wrote: I could assist with Finale 2014 though I hesitate to call myself an 'expert' in Finale. Power user maybe, but no expert. Does that help? I think that power user would be fine for the kind of test run I proposed. I mean, so long as you don't let your affection for Lilypond bias your performance ... :-) After all, the fundamental purpose of a trial like this is to have some kind of estimate of the relative productivity that capable users of the software can enjoy. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Am 07.12.2013 19:39, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling: No, but I imagine that if you went on the Finale mailing list and said, Hey, we're trying out this challenge as part of a drive to test and improve our usability, anyone up for it? you'd get some volunteers. One potential issue I'm seeing with this (I have already thought about this too) is: I think we all want LilyPond to be the best tool around, but IISC we're all talking about a serious comparison that also may server to teach us what to improve. But once we're going to compete with people from other tools' mailing lists it will probably become a real (and therefore less informative) competition. Urs ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Am 06.12.2013 17:11, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling: On 05/12/13 21:18, Janek Warchoł wrote: as promised, here are engraving comparisons that i hand out to musicians i meet: What Finale version are you using to generate these examples? I hate to say this, but from my point of view (as a Lilypond user and enthusiast) I think that rather than favouring Lilypond, this rather supports the contention that in general Finale's output is good enough. I presume what you have there is untweaked Finale engraving, and many of the issues you identify are very minor or most likely easily fixed. I have to throw in a comparison: http://lilypond.ursliska.de/uploads/pics/07_02.png http://lilypond.ursliska.de/uploads/pics/finale2008_one-system.png These are an excerpt from a copyright piece, but I've got permission to display in the context of a tutorial and of a blog post (they're in my plain text essay on the blog). I think this is a very good example for the fact that LilyPond often manages to produce legible layout even if it fails. Actually the only thing that's _really_ wrong with this example is the long slur - but that's of the kind I wouldn't expect any automated engraving to manage. Finale (admittedly 2008 - but LilyPond is 2.13 too IIRC) managed to clash about every conceivable grob in this case. Urs ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On 07/12/13 20:05, Urs Liska wrote: I have to throw in a comparison: http://lilypond.ursliska.de/uploads/pics/07_02.png http://lilypond.ursliska.de/uploads/pics/finale2008_one-system.png These are an excerpt from a copyright piece, but I've got permission to display in the context of a tutorial and of a blog post (they're in my plain text essay on the blog). I think this is a very good example for the fact that LilyPond often manages to produce legible layout even if it fails. Actually the only thing that's _really_ wrong with this example is the long slur - but that's of the kind I wouldn't expect any automated engraving to manage. Finale (admittedly 2008 - but LilyPond is 2.13 too IIRC) managed to clash about every conceivable grob in this case. Yes, but you're comparing default behaviour to default behaviour. I think we can all agree that Lilypond almost invariably wins in that comparison. The reason I proposed a competent-user-vs-competent-user comparison is that a competent user wouldn't leave those clashes in place but would manually tweak them. If those manual tweaks are quick-and-easy to make, then those faults of default behaviour may be considered much less serious. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Am 07.12.2013 20:18, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling: On 07/12/13 20:05, Urs Liska wrote: I have to throw in a comparison: http://lilypond.ursliska.de/uploads/pics/07_02.png http://lilypond.ursliska.de/uploads/pics/finale2008_one-system.png These are an excerpt from a copyright piece, but I've got permission to display in the context of a tutorial and of a blog post (they're in my plain text essay on the blog). I think this is a very good example for the fact that LilyPond often manages to produce legible layout even if it fails. Actually the only thing that's _really_ wrong with this example is the long slur - but that's of the kind I wouldn't expect any automated engraving to manage. Finale (admittedly 2008 - but LilyPond is 2.13 too IIRC) managed to clash about every conceivable grob in this case. Yes, but you're comparing default behaviour to default behaviour. I think we can all agree that Lilypond almost invariably wins in that comparison. The reason I proposed a competent-user-vs-competent-user comparison is that a competent user wouldn't leave those clashes in place but would manually tweak them. If those manual tweaks are quick-and-easy to make, then those faults of default behaviour may be considered much less serious. You may have a look at this and the following pages: http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-improving-the-output.html It is quite outdated, but it shows that the steps to fix the score in LilyPond are quite manageable (in particular with \shape or the new \shapeII), while I think fixing the Finale part (reliably) will be much more problematic, at least with this kind of music where the complexity leads to that amount of catastrophic results as in the Finale version. Urs ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On 07/12/13 19:54, Urs Liska wrote: But once we're going to compete with people from other tools' mailing lists it will probably become a real (and therefore less informative) competition. Well, if you couch it in terms along the lines of, Hey, we're just trying to improve our software here, we all want the best software and make it a friendly game rather than a Hey, we're better than you! exercise, I don't see that it need get too serious (at least in the sense of unfriendly competition). Anyway, there's a limit to how competitive it can get simply by virtue of the fact that Lilypond can be tweaked in response to how it does in such a competition, whereas with Finale, the development team has to take notice :-) Personally I would approach the Finale community with an invitation that gives the impression that you expect to come out worse in this comparison (because after all, it's about productivity rather than default engraving quality), but that you hope to learn something from the exercise. Then, if it's true, appropriate gratitude can be shown and lessons can be learned -- while if Lilypond comes out ahead (in which case, it should also be approached with humility rather than triumphalism), hopefully a few Finale users will start taking Lilypond more seriously. The important thing to recognize is that Finale and Sibelius users are not the competition. They're fellow dreamers about excellence in music notation software. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On 07/12/13 20:21, Urs Liska wrote: I think fixing the Finale part (reliably) will be much more problematic, at least with this kind of music where the complexity leads to that amount of catastrophic results as in the Finale version. That's why you want to run the test, to see if a good and enthusiastic Finale user can rise to the challenge! :-) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Shane Brandes sh...@grayskies.net writes: The U.S. has the concept of fair use see 17 U.S.C. § 107 But we want LilyPond to be distributable in more than just the U.S.A. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:42 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Shane Brandes sh...@grayskies.net writes: The U.S. has the concept of fair use see 17 U.S.C. § 107 But we want LilyPond to be distributable in more than just the U.S.A. Indeed. I am not a legal expert by any stretch (I've just read a lot of stuff on copyright law, between this project and some other related interests of mine). In particular, I would say that anything used should be incontrovertibly in the public domain (i.e., the older, the better). 1) While many jurisdictions recognize the rule of shortest term, this is not a guarantee, particularly if there is a specific agreement between two countries. For instance, I think the U.S. and Germany have a bilateral agreement that says each handles copyright according to its own laws, regardless of the country of origin. 2) As David has implied, Fair Use varies widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, if it exists at all in a jurisdiction. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:42 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Shane Brandes sh...@grayskies.net writes: The U.S. has the concept of fair use see 17 U.S.C. § 107 But we want LilyPond to be distributable in more than just the U.S.A. Indeed. I am not a legal expert by any stretch (I've just read a lot of stuff on copyright law, between this project and some other related interests of mine). In particular, I would say that anything used should be incontrovertibly in the public domain (i.e., the older, the better). There is not such thing as incontrovertibly in the public domain as various governments are shifting the goal posts around retroactively. It is a perversion of the idea of copyright as a means of encouraging the creation of works when copyright extensions are granted after the death of the author since no extension can make him possibly work harder on creating new works for the sake of his heirs after he is already dead. So any extension announced after the death of an author should not apply to the works of an author who labored under different assumptions when creating the work. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 10:30 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: So any extension announced after the death of an author should not apply to the works of an author who labored under different assumptions when creating the work. +1 Indeed. That said, if a work is in the public domain, it's in the public domain. So while works created in the U.S. in the 1930s (which would have entered public domain 75 years after creation, if I recall correctly) have had their term extended with the U.S. adopting parts of the Berne Convention, the U.S. Congress cannot go back and grab works created in the 1910s which have passed into public domain. Granted, there could be a major upheaval of copyright that makes this happen, but the chances of this happening at this point seem to be minimal. On the other hand, the major media corporations (Disney being Exhibit A of this issue), may persuade governments to make it so that copyright keeps extending and works *never* pass into public domain. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 10:30 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: So any extension announced after the death of an author should not apply to the works of an author who labored under different assumptions when creating the work. +1 Indeed. That said, if a work is in the public domain, it's in the public domain. URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_European_Union#Duration_of_protection [...] This provision had the effect of restoring the copyrights in certain works which had entered the public domain in countries with shorter copyright terms.[23] -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 10:47 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Carl Peterson carlopeter...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 10:30 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: So any extension announced after the death of an author should not apply to the works of an author who labored under different assumptions when creating the work. +1 Indeed. That said, if a work is in the public domain, it's in the public domain. URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_European_Union#Duration_of_protection [...] This provision had the effect of restoring the copyrights in certain works which had entered the public domain in countries with shorter copyright terms.[23] Well, that just defies common logic. But that's government and bureaucracy for you. I think my original parenthetical statement---older is better---applies here. It would be much harder to restore copyright all the way back to Canon in D, the Brandenburg Concertos, or Moonlight Sonata, would it not? ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On 05/12/13 21:18, Janek Warchoł wrote: as promised, here are engraving comparisons that i hand out to musicians i meet: What Finale version are you using to generate these examples? I hate to say this, but from my point of view (as a Lilypond user and enthusiast) I think that rather than favouring Lilypond, this rather supports the contention that in general Finale's output is good enough. I presume what you have there is untweaked Finale engraving, and many of the issues you identify are very minor or most likely easily fixed. The only thing that I can see that really irritates and really seems dangerous from a performing perspective is the dot on the dotted 8th notes, whose regular misplacement does create some potentially nasty reading ambiguities. If you want a real comparison, give two expert users -- one of Finale, one of Lilypond -- the same score and give them an hour to engrave as much as they can, with the goal that every single bar they engrave is perfect. Then compare what they achieve. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
If you want a real comparison, give two expert users -- one of Finale, one of Lilypond -- the same score and give them an hour to engrave as much as they can, with the goal that every single bar they engrave is perfect. Then compare what they achieve. While I think this is a good idea, I have a few reasons to hesitate. We don't want to just promote LilyPond to expert users; wouldn't we want any user to switch over? Any professional can make anything look good. An expert Micro$oft Paint user could probably reproduce the Mona Lisa if given enough time. What LilyPond does better than Finale/Sibelius is more excellent default engraving. How many times have people used Finale and gotten that dreaded last-bar-on-its-own-page problem? I believe the best test would be using ONLY defaults for Finale, Sibelius, and LilyPond to show what the programs can do--not what experienced users can do. - Ryan McClure Music Education Major, Shepherd University Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/engraving-comparisons-and-other-promotional-materials-tp155133p155232.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Am 06.12.2013 19:53, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling: I disagree, because the faults of default Finale output are not serious faults if they're quick and easy to fix. Some more aspects to this: How reliably can these faults be fixed? What happens to the fixes if you screw up with a tweak. What if the layout changes because of corrections or a different paper format? How can someone else fix issues in a score? etc. etc. Urs ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
agreed, but Ryan stated he was in the U.S. I am in the and therefore have had to deal directly with that code of laws, having knowledge of that useful and interesting bit of the law I mentioned it in the hopes of spurring on discovery of what others might know about the current situation across the globe. Copyright law is as has been pointed out grossly perverted beyond its original useful intent, but how far that madness extends is something unknown to me, not being a lawyer or even for that matter an international lawyer. My point was that at some point examples have to be created that reflect current usage practices and there are ways that can be accomplished without infringement. On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:42 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Shane Brandes sh...@grayskies.net writes: The U.S. has the concept of fair use see 17 U.S.C. § 107 But we want LilyPond to be distributable in more than just the U.S.A. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
On 06/12/13 20:02, Urs Liska wrote: Some more aspects to this: How reliably can these faults be fixed? What happens to the fixes if you screw up with a tweak. What if the layout changes because of corrections or a different paper format? How can someone else fix issues in a score? etc. etc. Yes, all fair questions. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Mr. McClure, On two previous mailings I have extoled the values of Lilypond for the new user (loaded mine this last March), or what might be called its out of the box capabilities. Since installation I have transcribed 20+ piano scores for my own study and use. All of them are crisper than the published version and are more uniformly spaced on the page. Mark -Original Message- From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Ryan McClure Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 8:59 AM To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Subject: Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials While I think this is a good idea, I have a few reasons to hesitate. We don't want to just promote LilyPond to expert users; wouldn't we want any user to switch over? Any professional can make anything look good. An expert Micro$oft Paint user could probably reproduce the Mona Lisa if given enough time. What LilyPond does better than Finale/Sibelius is more excellent default engraving. How many times have people used Finale and gotten that dreaded last-bar-on-its-own-page problem? I believe the best test would be using ONLY defaults for Finale, Sibelius, and LilyPond to show what the programs can do--not what experienced users can do. - Ryan McClure Music Education Major, Shepherd University Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/engraving-comparisons-and-other-promot ional-materials-tp155133p155232.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Hi all, as promised, here are engraving comparisons that i hand out to musicians i meet: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71760856/engraving%20comparisons.zip (this link is temporary, expect that it won't be valid after a couple weeks). One comparison is in English - other are in Polish, but you'll figure out everything from the pictures :) I think it'd be great to have a public collection of such marketing stuff, so that when we want to demonstrate LilyPond to someone we'll have some resources available. Of course, i know that we have a feature list on the website, but i think we could use some more involved and in-depth materials. Anyway, who'd like to join such effort? In addition to translating the comparisons, which i'd do, it'd be nice to design a flyer, a list of why use LilyPond arguments, more comparisons, etc best, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
Excellent comparisons...looking at Finale made me cringe, but it reminded me why I made the switch to LilyPond. :) I'd be more than willing to help out. I am able to access Sibelius in my university's computer lab and can make some samples of Sibelius. I also have Finale access too, along with Musescore. I'd love to help out with this...More people need to see why these programs aren't the best for beautiful output :) - Ryan McClure Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/engraving-comparisons-and-other-promotional-materials-tp155133p155135.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
A quick question--sorry to clog the mailling list--but what are the rules concerning copyright with this sort of thing? Would all works have to be public domain/approved by the copyright holder? I assume the answer is yes, but I don't want to take any chances. I'm from the US if that makes any difference. - Ryan McClure Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/engraving-comparisons-and-other-promotional-materials-tp155133p155137.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: engraving comparisons and other promotional materials
The U.S. has the concept of fair use see 17 U.S.C. § 107 1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; 2. the nature of the copyrighted work; 3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and 4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. Anyway for the majority of examples it should be the case that out of copyright material can be had, but some things will by there nature require such small examples of such copyrighted material due to more innovative typesetting treatment or notation practices that occurred after the obscenely lengthy protection period. of course one might make parodies of such material such as mucky mouse or what have you. Shane On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Ryan McClure ryanmichaelmccl...@gmail.com wrote: A quick question--sorry to clog the mailling list--but what are the rules concerning copyright with this sort of thing? Would all works have to be public domain/approved by the copyright holder? I assume the answer is yes, but I don't want to take any chances. I'm from the US if that makes any difference. - Ryan McClure Luna Music Engraving www.lunamusicengraving.com -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/engraving-comparisons-and-other-promotional-materials-tp155133p155137.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
