Re: Musescore/musicxml questions

[Kira Garvie]

Thank you, Jacques! That does help.
I work with this system, that creates both printable online files and
downloadable xml files, but lately I have been having formatting issues...
I wish we used something other than MuseScore! (Lilypond is used for a
different part of the project!)
https://my.hymnary.org/song/62/o-come-all-ye-faithful?header=auto&instrument=full&translation=None&;

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 4:44 PM Jacques Menu  wrote:

> Hello Kira,
>
> I’ve looked at the two files you posted, and the MusicXML export is
> actually not reflecting the exact layout of the original.Converting it to
> LilyPond with xml2ly gives the same layout as when the exported file is
> re-imported in Musecore.
>
> This is a difficult issue at any rate, to be submitted to the MuseScore
> team at https://musescore.com/user/login?destination=%2Fcas%2Flogin.
>
> HTH!
>
> JM
>
> > Le 30 juin 2022 à 18:50, Kira Garvie  a écrit :
> >
> > Hey all,
> > I know this is a bit off-topic but it's on-topic for me... also I don't
> know who else to ask, the muse-score forums aren't very helpful.
> > I use Lilypond, Musescore, and musicxml files for my work. Please, no
> comments on the quality of Musescore, the decision to use it was above my
> paygrade. I am having issues exporting an xml file and having it keep its
> formatting. Is there anyone who has experience with this and can help me
> off the list? Or should I just can it and keep googling stuff until I
> stumble on an answer?
> > Here are the files.
> > Thank you!
> > 
>
>

Re: Musescore/musicxml questions

[Jacques Menu]

Hello Kira,

I’ve looked at the two files you posted, and the MusicXML export is actually 
not reflecting the exact layout of the original.Converting it to LilyPond with 
xml2ly gives the same layout as when the exported file is re-imported in 
Musecore.

This is a difficult issue at any rate, to be submitted to the MuseScore team at 
https://musescore.com/user/login?destination=%2Fcas%2Flogin.

HTH!

JM

> Le 30 juin 2022 à 18:50, Kira Garvie  a écrit :
> 
> Hey all,
> I know this is a bit off-topic but it's on-topic for me... also I don't know 
> who else to ask, the muse-score forums aren't very helpful.
> I use Lilypond, Musescore, and musicxml files for my work. Please, no 
> comments on the quality of Musescore, the decision to use it was above my 
> paygrade. I am having issues exporting an xml file and having it keep its 
> formatting. Is there anyone who has experience with this and can help me off 
> the list? Or should I just can it and keep googling stuff until I stumble on 
> an answer? 
> Here are the files.
> Thank you!
> 

Re: Musescore/musicxml questions

[Karlin High]

On 6/30/2022 11:50 AM, Kira Garvie wrote:

I am having issues exporting an xml file and having it keep its formatting.


Can you further describe the workflow, source and destination of the export?
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

Musescore/musicxml questions

[Kira Garvie]

Hey all,
I know this is a bit off-topic but it's on-topic for me... also I don't
know who else to ask, the muse-score forums aren't very helpful.
I use Lilypond, Musescore, and musicxml files for my work. Please, no
comments on the quality of Musescore, the decision to use it was above my
paygrade. I am having issues exporting an xml file and having it keep its
formatting. Is there anyone who has experience with this and can help me
off the list? Or should I just can it and keep googling stuff until I
stumble on an answer?
Here are the files.
Thank you!


SSS2019-13.musicxml
Description: Binary data


SSS2019-13.mscz
Description: application/musescore

Re: New Musescore

[Brent Annable]

Thanks Jean!

Brent.

On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 at 18:52, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:

> Le 24/10/2021 à 08:02, Brent Annable a écrit :
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > Can anybody tell me how to actually use the new Leland font in lilypond?
> I
> > went to the GitHub link and downloaded all the files, but as far as I can
> > tell there are no Leland-11, Leland-13, Leland-14, etc. files. I
> downloaded
> > the available .otf anyway, and when I tried to compile a Lilypond file
> the
> > log said 'cannot find Leland-11'. How do I actually do this?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Brent.
>
> It is not possible yet. The font is in SMuFL
> format, for which support is an ongoing project.
> See the latest news about this here:
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2021-10/msg00078.html
>
> Regards,
> Jean
>

Re: New Musescore

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le 24/10/2021 à 08:02, Brent Annable a écrit :

Hi Everyone,

Can anybody tell me how to actually use the new Leland font in lilypond? I
went to the GitHub link and downloaded all the files, but as far as I can
tell there are no Leland-11, Leland-13, Leland-14, etc. files. I downloaded
the available .otf anyway, and when I tried to compile a Lilypond file the
log said 'cannot find Leland-11'. How do I actually do this?

Regards,

Brent.


It is not possible yet. The font is in SMuFL
format, for which support is an ongoing project.
See the latest news about this here:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2021-10/msg00078.html

Regards,
Jean

Re: New Musescore

[Brent Annable]

Hi Everyone,

Can anybody tell me how to actually use the new Leland font in lilypond? I
went to the GitHub link and downloaded all the files, but as far as I can
tell there are no Leland-11, Leland-13, Leland-14, etc. files. I downloaded
the available .otf anyway, and when I tried to compile a Lilypond file the
log said 'cannot find Leland-11'. How do I actually do this?

Regards,

Brent.

On Sat, 23 Jan 2021 at 07:56, Xavier Scheuer  wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 at 19:44, Noeck  wrote:
> >
> > FYI: The new MuseScore version 3.6 comes with a new default music font
> > and text font.
> >
> > https://musescore.org/de/node/315523
> >
> > There is a sample image in this article
> > https://gnulinux.ch/neue-version-von-musescore
>
> This is super interesting, thanks for the information.
>
> After making inquiries I would like to add that the new music font is
> called Leland in tribute to Leland Smith, the creator of the SCORE
> application. It is available in SMuFL format and under the OFL license.
> The text font is based on New Century Schoolbook and is also released
> under OFL license.
>
> For a quick overview of these fonts you can watch the Musescore 3.6
> presentation video and for a more detailed explanation of the origin of the
> design of the new music font the video of Tantacrul "How I Designed a Free
> Music Font for 5 Million Musicians (MuseScore 3.6)".
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLR40BGNy68
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGo4PJd1lng
>
> In short, there are many reasons to be happy about this, since it can be
> reused in LilyPond.
> Cc lilypond-devel as these fonts under OFL as well as these design
> explanations could trigger some discussions for LilyPond as well, I think.
>
> Cheers,
> Xavier
>
> --
> Xavier Scheuer 
>
>

Re: New Musescore

[Xavier Scheuer]

On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 at 19:44, Noeck  wrote:
>
> FYI: The new MuseScore version 3.6 comes with a new default music font
> and text font.
>
> https://musescore.org/de/node/315523
>
> There is a sample image in this article
> https://gnulinux.ch/neue-version-von-musescore

This is super interesting, thanks for the information.

After making inquiries I would like to add that the new music font is
called Leland in tribute to Leland Smith, the creator of the SCORE
application. It is available in SMuFL format and under the OFL license.
The text font is based on New Century Schoolbook and is also released under
OFL license.

For a quick overview of these fonts you can watch the Musescore 3.6
presentation video and for a more detailed explanation of the origin of the
design of the new music font the video of Tantacrul "How I Designed a Free
Music Font for 5 Million Musicians (MuseScore 3.6)".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLR40BGNy68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGo4PJd1lng

In short, there are many reasons to be happy about this, since it can be
reused in LilyPond.
Cc lilypond-devel as these fonts under OFL as well as these design
explanations could trigger some discussions for LilyPond as well, I think.

Cheers,
Xavier

-- 
Xavier Scheuer 

New Musescore

[Noeck]

FYI: The new MuseScore version 3.6 comes with a new default music font
and text font.

https://musescore.org/de/node/315523

There is a sample image in this article
https://gnulinux.ch/neue-version-von-musescore

Cheers,
Joram

Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

Hi, David!

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 3:51 PM David Bellows  wrote:

> > Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond
>
> Excellent work and thank you!
>

My pleasure ;-)


> Lilypond does look good here. I am curious, what are forked stems? You
> have that as a "no" for Lilypond.
>

Forked stems (or splayed stems, as Harm referred to them) can be necessary
when there are two notes that share the same staff line or space, but are
not the same pitch (e.g., ) A split stem separates the two noteheads
with their respective accidentals so they each can be distinguished
clearly. They aren't super common and can often be avoided by using a
different enharmonic spelling, but sometimes they can't be avoided and
require this. LilyPond doesn't handle this situation natively (yet) and it
requires a nice workaround, such as the one Harm presented.


> Also, I see you used the latest unstable version of Lilypond, did that
> make much of a difference?
>

Not really. The line items are pretty standard things, most of which have
been supported for a long time now. I don't suspect 2.18.2 to score much
differently than 2.19.82, except for only a few items like supporting
alternate music fonts, which was introduced in 2.19.12.

Best,
Abraham
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 6:18 PM Thomas Morley 
wrote:

> Am Di., 27. Nov. 2018 um 00:16 Uhr schrieb Malte Meyn <
> lilyp...@maltemeyn.de>:
>
> > „Notes, forked stems“ (l. 109)
> > → should be „yes (fake: rotated stems or custom lines)“
> >
>
> Or like attached pdf.
> Most recent code here (if someone's interested)
> https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,1176.msg6932.html#msg6932


Thanks everyone for the feedback. I will update the spreadsheet accordingly.

Best,
Abraham
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Thomas Morley]

Am Di., 27. Nov. 2018 um 00:16 Uhr schrieb Malte Meyn :

> „Notes, forked stems“ (l. 109)
> → should be „yes (fake: rotated stems or custom lines)“
>

Or like attached pdf.
Most recent code here (if someone's interested)
https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,1176.msg6932.html#msg6932

Cheers,
  Harm


splayed-stems-07.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Malte Meyn]

Am 26.11.18 um 23:36 schrieb Abraham Lee:
Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about 
LilyPond. I felt pretty confident in the Notation and Engraving tabs, 
pretty solid marks there, but more uncertain about the Playback tab 
entries. I'm honestly not sure what they should be since many of the 
playback functionality is requisite on forming the content for playback 
rather than score output (i.e., using articulate.ly 
, restructuring repeats, etc.). Please feel free 
to look over my responses and let me know if you feel I've answered in 
error.
I think in that Google doc several things aren’t correct or unclear. But 
maybe some of these I just don’t know ;)


Notation comparison
===

„Metronome marks, lines“ (line 40 of the table) Is this something like 
tempo spanners?

→ probably should be „no“ or „yes (fake)“

„Repeats, quadruple bar“ (l. 53) I think this means something like
\repeat percent 2 { b1 b b b }
→ should be „no“

„Ties, cross-staff“ (l. 69)
→ shouldn’t that be „no (fake: use slurs)“?

„Ties, laissez vibrer over barlines“ (l. 71) This implies that laissez 
vibrer ties can have a duration and a length depending on that. They 
don’t, their length doesn’t depend on rhythm and horizontal spacing.

→ should be „yes (needs manual length control)“ or similar

„Chord symbols, analysis“ (l. 104) Does this mean functional analysis? 
There are snippets that use lyrics and make heavy use of markup 
commands. But that’s not builtin and needs complicated input.

→ should be „yes (needs extra ‚plugin‘)“ or similar

„Notes, forked stems“ (l. 109)
→ should be „yes (fake: rotated stems or custom lines)“


Engraving comparison

„Measures, override width“ (l. 10) It’s not that easy. You can use 
\newSpacingSection and several spacing commands but you cannot say „make 
this measure 5cm wide“.

→ should be „yes, but …“

Playback comparison
===
„Output, instrument changes“ (l. 5)
\override Staff.midiInstrument = "…"
→ should be „yes“

„Tempo, polytempo“ (l. 10) What’s that?

„Dynamics, gradual changes“ (l. 15) Shouldn’t that be „yes (fake: many 
immediate changes)“?


„Repeats, capo/segno/coda/fine“ (l. 45) These are input as markups, 
aren’t they? So I think this should be „yes (fake: copy music using 
variables)“ or similar.


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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Bellows]

> Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond

Excellent work and thank you!

Lilypond does look good here. I am curious, what are forked stems? You
have that as a "no" for Lilypond.

Also, I see you used the latest unstable version of Lilypond, did that
make much of a difference?

Dave
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 2:37 PM Abraham Lee  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:04 PM David Bellows  wrote:
>>
>> Urs,
>>
>> >I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily 
>> >much to the comments section).
>>
>> If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
>> know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
>> suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
>> of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
>> in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
>> from anywhere else we'd like).
>>
>> > not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list
>>
>> I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
>> these (and others) would apply.
>>
>> > find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
>> > after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with 
>> > syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe 
>> > this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)
>>
>> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
>> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
>
>
> Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond. I 
> felt pretty confident in the Notation and Engraving tabs, pretty solid marks 
> there, but more uncertain about the Playback tab entries. I'm honestly not 
> sure what they should be since many of the playback functionality is 
> requisite on forming the content for playback rather than score output (i.e., 
> using articulate.ly, restructuring repeats, etc.). Please feel free to look 
> over my responses and let me know if you feel I've answered in error.
>
> Best,
> Abraham

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 1:04 PM David Bellows  wrote:

> Urs,
>
> >I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily
> much to the comments section).
>
> If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
> know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
> suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
> of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
> in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
> from anywhere else we'd like).
>
> > not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the
> list
>
> I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
> these (and others) would apply.
>
> > find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins
> after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with
> syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe
> this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)
>
> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
>

Ok, everyone. I have finally gotten around to adding data about LilyPond. I
felt pretty confident in the Notation and Engraving tabs, pretty solid
marks there, but more uncertain about the Playback tab entries. I'm
honestly not sure what they should be since many of the playback
functionality is requisite on forming the content for playback rather than
score output (i.e., using articulate.ly, restructuring repeats, etc.).
Please feel free to look over my responses and let me know if you feel I've
answered in error.

Best,
Abraham
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2018-11-20 um 21:03 schrieb David Bellows :

>> find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
>> after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with syntactical 
>> means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe this would even 
>> warrant a new tab in the sheet)
> 
> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?

Maybe call it extensibility - other programs might accept plugins or might be 
scriptable in JavaScript or the like.

You could also mention interoperability - MusicXML, (La)TeX... Others might 
have e.g. Word addons and fare better WRT MusicXML...

Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
https://www.fiee.net





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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Shane Brandes]

So it does everything on that list near as I can work out.
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 5:57 PM Torsten Hämmerle
 wrote:
>
> Shane Brandes wrote
> > What do they mean by jazz articulations?
>
> Hi Shane,
>
> I guess they mean doits, falls, shakes, bends…
>
> All the best,
> Torsten
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html
>
> ___
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Shane Brandes wrote
> What do they mean by jazz articulations?

Hi Shane,

I guess they mean doits, falls, shakes, bends…

All the best,
Torsten




--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[J Martin Rushton]

See also on Wikipedia for a comparison:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_scorewriters

On 20/11/18 22:03, Shane Brandes wrote:
> Is there anything on that list that Lilypond doesn't do? What do they
> mean by jazz articulations?
> 
> -Shane
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 3:04 PM David Bellows  wrote:
>>
>> Urs,
>>
>>> I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily 
>>> much to the comments section).
>>
>> If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
>> know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
>> suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
>> of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
>> in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
>> from anywhere else we'd like).
>>
>>> not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list
>>
>> I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
>> these (and others) would apply.
>>
>>> find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
>>> after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with 
>>> syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe 
>>> this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)
>>
>> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
>> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:50 AM David Kastrup  wrote:
>>>
>>> Karlin High  writes:
>>>
>>>> On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:
>>>>> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
>>>>> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.
>>>>
>>>> I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
>>>> software.
>>>>
>>>> <https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
>>>> <https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>
>>>>
>>>> Other list members here may have more recent references or info.
>>>
>>> I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
>>> programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
>>> challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
>>> an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
>>> degree than other programs.
>>>
>>> So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
>>> not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Kastrup
>>
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-- 
J Martin Rushton MBCS



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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Shane Brandes]

Is there anything on that list that Lilypond doesn't do? What do they
mean by jazz articulations?

-Shane
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 3:04 PM David Bellows  wrote:
>
> Urs,
>
> >I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily much 
> >to the comments section).
>
> If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
> know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
> suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
> of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
> in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
> from anywhere else we'd like).
>
> > not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list
>
> I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
> these (and others) would apply.
>
> > find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
> > after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with 
> > syntactical means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe 
> > this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)
>
> One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
> parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:50 AM David Kastrup  wrote:
> >
> > Karlin High  writes:
> >
> > > On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:
> > >> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
> > >> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.
> > >
> > > I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
> > > software.
> > >
> > > <https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
> > > <https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>
> > >
> > > Other list members here may have more recent references or info.
> >
> > I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
> > programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
> > challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
> > an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
> > degree than other programs.
> >
> > So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
> > not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.
> >
> > --
> > David Kastrup
>
> ___
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Bellows]

Urs,

>I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily much 
>to the comments section).

If the owner of the spreadsheet allows it, then definitely. I don't
know them personally so I don't know how they feel about that. I
suppose we could create our own version if they do not agree. I'm one
of the mods in that sub so I'll be making the chart a permanent link
in the sub so either way would work (and obviously we can link to it
from anywhere else we'd like).

> not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list

I agree. The OP did ask for omissions/corrections so I would think
these (and others) would apply.

> find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
> after-the-fact),with things like complete extensibility with syntactical 
> means, conditional layout per engraving target ...(Maybe this would even 
> warrant a new tab in the sheet)

One of Lilypond's biggest strengths! Working out meaningful/useful
parallels with the other programs would be the issue, I'm guessing?
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:50 AM David Kastrup  wrote:
>
> Karlin High  writes:
>
> > On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:
> >> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
> >> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.
> >
> > I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
> > software.
> >
> > <https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
> > <https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>
> >
> > Other list members here may have more recent references or info.
>
> I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
> programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
> challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
> an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
> degree than other programs.
>
> So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
> not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.
>
> --
> David Kastrup

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Kastrup]

Karlin High  writes:

> On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:
>> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
>> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.
>
> I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other
> software.
>
> <https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
> <https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>
>
> Other list members here may have more recent references or info.

I think it's always a bit of a squeeze to compare LilyPond with other
programs, particularly in the "challenges" department since the
challenge is often more to the user than to the program, LilyPond being
an open architecture with user-extensible functionality to a much larger
degree than other programs.

So a particularly user may set a checkmark "yes, can do" while this does
not actually hold for a typical user without asking on the mailing list.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.11.18 um 19:38 schrieb David Bellows:

Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
and better and off the tops of their heads.

So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.

The post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/

The chart (Google document):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0



I think it would be good to add our stuff to the chart (not necessarily 
much to the comments section).


But if we do that I think we should

* not only check the given items with yes/no but also freely add to the list
  (just two random entries: "Lyrics, unlimited number of stanzas", 
"Ornaments, custom").

  Especially on the "Engraving" tab there are *lots* of possibilities

* find a way to plug the "programmability" aspect (vs. applying plugins 
after-the-fact),
  with things like complete extensibility with syntactical means, 
conditional layout per engraving target ...

  (Maybe this would even warrant a new tab in the sheet)

My 2cts

Urs



Thanks,
Dave Bellows

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.11.18 um 19:54 schrieb Karlin High:

On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:

Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.


I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other 
software.


<https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
<https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>



I think both of these links (although interesting in itself) don't help 
very much for this specific purpose.


Urs




Other list members here may have more recent references or info.


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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:56 AM David Bellows 
wrote:

> I'm not the owner which is why I suggested emailing the results to me
> or to post it on Reddit. But I am glad you're willing to contribute
>

I don't think posting it as text on Reddit is the best format (not that I
have an account to do so, but that's beside the point). Tabular form makes
a lot more sense to me, like is typically seen on Wikipedia. So, I will
wait for the owner to give permission.


> and look forward to the results!
>

Yeah! From my quick look-over, LP should do very well on both the Notation
and Engraving tabs, but not so good (unsurprisingly) on the Playback tab.
Then again, I don't use the 'articulate' function much, since I don't need
playback for more than ear-proofing the notes. Maybe it can provide more
"Yes"-es than I think! If anyone has deeper experience here, please let me
know and I will adjust LP's entries accordingly.

Best,
Abraham
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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Bellows]

Hey Abraham,

> What a lovely idea! I'd be happy to add data for LilyPond. I've requested 
> write access to the Google Doc (not sure if you're the owner or not).

I'm not the owner which is why I suggested emailing the results to me
or to post it on Reddit. But I am glad you're willing to contribute
and look forward to the results!

Dave
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 10:52 AM Abraham Lee  wrote:
>
> Hi, David!
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:39 AM David Bellows  wrote:
>>
>> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
>> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
>> out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
>> them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
>> and better and off the tops of their heads.
>>
>> So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
>> email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
>> results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
>> is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.
>>
>> The post:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/
>>
>> The chart (Google document):
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0
>
>
> What a lovely idea! I'd be happy to add data for LilyPond. I've requested 
> write access to the Google Doc (not sure if you're the owner or not).
>
> Best,
> Abraham

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Karlin High]

On 11/20/2018 12:38 PM, David Bellows wrote:

Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico.


I remember seeing some past work done with comparing LilyPond to other 
software.


<https://github.com/engraving-challenges/main>
<https://lilypondblog.org/category/comparisons/>

Other list members here may have more recent references or info.
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[Abraham Lee]

Hi, David!

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:39 AM David Bellows 
wrote:

> Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
> listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
> out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
> them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
> and better and off the tops of their heads.
>
> So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
> email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
> results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
> is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.
>
> The post:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/
>
> The chart (Google document):
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0


What a lovely idea! I'd be happy to add data for LilyPond. I've requested
write access to the Google Doc (not sure if you're the owner or not).

Best,
Abraham
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Comparison of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico -- would like to add Lilypond

[David Bellows]

Over in the /r/composer sub on Reddit, a user put together a chart
listing features of Musescore, Sibelius and Dorico. While I can figure
out whether Lilypond has some/many of those features (or can "fake"
them), I figured that there are people here who could do this easier
and better and off the tops of their heads.

So if anyone wants to contribute you can either do so using this list,
email me directly or if you have a Reddit account just post your
results in that thread. I'm one of the mods of that sub and our plan
is to keep a permanent link to the chart for future reference.

The post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/9yue29/comparison_of_features_between_musescore_sibelius/

The chart (Google document):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VWH-dEMyf4P4smFKE36dnBQ_vXNGvKRnE7Fgh4yFNXQ/edit#gid=0

Thanks,
Dave Bellows

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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Son_V]

> it's tedious as it sounds
:-((



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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Federico Bruni]

2014-07-10 21:52 GMT+02:00 Federico Bruni :

> See my file attached, all the measures are commented except the first and
> the problem is still present.
> This is not yet a minimal example. You should dig more. Try commenting
> staff 2 and leave only staff one. Be careful to comment in the right
> places; xmlcopyeditor will print a warning if there's something wrong. Run
> again musicxml2ly and see if the error is still present.
>

I reduced it to a single measure and I can import in Denemo. In Denemo I
see there's an upbeat or pickup at the beginning. Maybe this is what causes
trouble?

I've just tried musicxml2ly developed by philomelos¹ and I get a different
error:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./musicxml2ly", line 3369, in 
main()
  File "./musicxml2ly", line 3363, in main
voices = convert (filename, options)
  File "./musicxml2ly", line 3241, in convert
(voices, staff_info) = get_all_voices (parts)
  File "./musicxml2ly", line 2837, in get_all_voices
part_ly_voices[n] = musicxml_voice_to_lily_voice (v)
  File "./musicxml2ly", line 2644, in musicxml_voice_to_lily_voice
if (beamed == "begin" or slurred == "start") and
(len(voice._elements[idx+1].get_typed_children (musicxml.Lyric)) != 0):
IndexError: list index out of range

¹ https://github.com/Philomelos/lilypond-musicxml2ly-dev

http://www.musicxml.org/dtds/partwise.dtd";>

  

  MuseScore 1.2
  2014-06-08
  

  

  7.056
  40
  

  1683.67
  1190.48
  
56.6893
56.6893
56.6893
113.379

  
56.6893
56.6893
56.6893
113.379

  

  
Laudes et gratia miserachs organo

  

  brace
  

  Organo
  Org.
  
Organo

  
1
20
78.7402
0

  

  

  

  
107.78
0.00

  214.12
  

  65.00
  

  
2

  -1
  major
  

  4
  4
  
2

  G
  2
  

  F
  4
  

  

  A
  4
  
4
1
half
up
1

  
  


  

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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Son_V" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update


Sorry but I can understand what a "tiny example" is, but I'm not able to 
make
one ... and, about the "hand edit the XML source to get rid of the error 
in

the PartGroupInfo section" ... what could i do??? :-(
Thanks.


A LilyPond tiny example is descried here:

http://lilypond.org/tiny-examples.html

Try taking sections out of the XML until it's as small as possible whilst 
still showing the problem.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Son_V" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update


Ok, but how can Denemo load the file that LilyPond can't open, and so 
makes

Forte?


Either because Denemo is more tolerant of incorrect XML, or there's a bug in 
the LilyPond MusicXML importer.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Son_V]

Sorry but I can understand what a "tiny example" is, but I'm not able to make
one ... and, about the "hand edit the XML source to get rid of the error in
the PartGroupInfo section" ... what could i do??? :-(
Thanks.



--
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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Son_V]

Ok, but how can Denemo load the file that LilyPond can't open, and so makes
Forte?



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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Son_V" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update



Well, the file produced by Musescore:
http://www.freefilehosting.net/prova_1

and the same file imported in Forte Premium demo and re-exported in an xml
file:
http://www.freefilehosting.net/provaii

But what messes me is that the first file, the one produced by MuseScore,
can be imported in Denemo (BUT it sees FIVE voices!) and, WITHOUT any
problem, by Forte. I think maybe there's a problem with musixml2ly ... but
what can be done? Thanks.


[echo]

You could see whether you can reduce the XML file to a tiny example that
still breaks the import, and post it here. We can then use that to raise a
bug report.

You could also hand edit the XML source to get rid of the error in the
PartGroupInfo section.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Richard Shann]

On Thu, 2014-07-10 at 09:45 -0700, Son_V wrote:
> the one produced by MuseScore,
> can be imported in Denemo (BUT it sees FIVE voices!) 
well, it sees 5 voices because, bizarrely MuseScore has numbered the
three voices 1, 2 and 5
The two empty ones are harmless (empty) and easily deleted of course.

Richard



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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Son_V]

Well, the file produced by Musescore:
http://www.freefilehosting.net/prova_1 

and the same file imported in Forte Premium demo and re-exported in an xml
file:
http://www.freefilehosting.net/provaii 

But what messes me is that the first file, the one produced by MuseScore,
can be imported in Denemo (BUT it sees FIVE voices!) and, WITHOUT any
problem, by Forte. I think maybe there's a problem with musixml2ly ... but
what can be done? Thanks.




--
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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[James]

On 10/07/14 11:59, Son_V wrote:

Hi, some days ago I posted a message to say that I couldn't import an xml
organ file made with Musescore; yesterday I installed Forte 5 basic took
from GAOTD, and at my surprise it read perfectly the xml files I couldn't
made Lilypond read . At this point i could think there is a problem in the
LilyPond import section. I installed Forte 5 premium demo (the basic edition
can't export to xml) and imported the xml file produced by Musescore (all
OK) and export it back to a new xml file. I got another, different error.

 Importing in Ubuntustudio, Frescobaldi 2.0.13, LilyPond 2.16.2 from
the Musescore xml output

The file couldn't be converted. Error message:
musicxml2ly: Lettura di MusicXML da /home/vincent/Musica/CANC/cazz/prova.xml
...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2986, in 
 main()
   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2981, in main
 voices = convert (filename, options)
   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2896, in convert
 update_score_setup (score, part_list, voices)
   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2794, in update_score_setup
 score_structure.set_part_information (part_id, staves_info)
   File "/usr/share/lilypond/2.16.2/python/musicexp.py", line 1935, in
set_part_information
 self.contents.set_part_information (part_id, staves_info)
   File "/usr/share/lilypond/2.16.2/python/musicexp.py", line 1774, in
set_part_information
 c.set_part_information (part_name, staves_info)
AttributeError: PartGroupInfo instance has no attribute
'set_part_information'

 Importing in Ubuntustudio,  from the from the Forte 5 premium demo
xml output

The file couldn't be converted. Error message:
musicxml2ly: Lettura di MusicXML da
/home/vincent/Musica/CANC/cazz/provaII.xml ...
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2986, in 
 main()
   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2981, in main
 voices = convert (filename, options)
   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2883, in convert
 score_information = extract_score_information (tree)
   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 201, in extract_score_information
 set_if_exists ('title', movement_title.get_text ())
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'get_text'

What can be done? :-(





I'd attach the xml file you are trying to convert (if it is small enough 
- or give someone a place they can get it from) and report this to 
'bug-lilyp...@gnu.org'.


James

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Re: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Son_V" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:59 AM
Subject: I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update



What can be done? :-( 



Please see my reply on bugs to your duplicate message about this.

--
Phil Holmes

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I was unable to import an xml ogan file from Musescore - update

[Son_V]

Hi, some days ago I posted a message to say that I couldn't import an xml
organ file made with Musescore; yesterday I installed Forte 5 basic took
from GAOTD, and at my surprise it read perfectly the xml files I couldn't
made Lilypond read . At this point i could think there is a problem in the
LilyPond import section. I installed Forte 5 premium demo (the basic edition
can't export to xml) and imported the xml file produced by Musescore (all
OK) and export it back to a new xml file. I got another, different error.

 Importing in Ubuntustudio, Frescobaldi 2.0.13, LilyPond 2.16.2 from
the Musescore xml output

The file couldn't be converted. Error message:
musicxml2ly: Lettura di MusicXML da /home/vincent/Musica/CANC/cazz/prova.xml
...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2986, in 
main()
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2981, in main
voices = convert (filename, options)
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2896, in convert
update_score_setup (score, part_list, voices)
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2794, in update_score_setup
score_structure.set_part_information (part_id, staves_info)
  File "/usr/share/lilypond/2.16.2/python/musicexp.py", line 1935, in
set_part_information
self.contents.set_part_information (part_id, staves_info)
  File "/usr/share/lilypond/2.16.2/python/musicexp.py", line 1774, in
set_part_information
c.set_part_information (part_name, staves_info)
AttributeError: PartGroupInfo instance has no attribute
'set_part_information'

 Importing in Ubuntustudio,  from the from the Forte 5 premium demo
xml output

The file couldn't be converted. Error message:
musicxml2ly: Lettura di MusicXML da
/home/vincent/Musica/CANC/cazz/provaII.xml ...
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2986, in 
main()
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2981, in main
voices = convert (filename, options)
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2883, in convert
score_information = extract_score_information (tree)
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 201, in extract_score_information
set_if_exists ('title', movement_title.get_text ())
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'get_text'

What can be done? :-( 



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Re: OT? Error importing Organ xml files made in Musescore

[Son_V]

s c' d' bes\AutoBarline
%5
 c' bes a2~ \AutoBarline
 a bes4 c'\AutoBarline
 d' c' bes a\AutoBarline
 g2 c'\AutoBarline
 r1\AutoBarline
%10
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
%15
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
%20
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
%25
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
 r\AutoBarline
%30
 r\AutoBarline
 r \bar "|."}


MvmntIVoiceX = {
 f1~ \AutoBarline
 f~ \AutoBarline
 f~ \AutoBarline
 f(\AutoBarline
%5
 c2.) a,4(\AutoBarline
 d c bes, a,\AutoBarline
 g, a, bes,2\AutoBarline
 c1)\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
%10
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
%15
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
%20
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
%25
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
%30
 \skip 1\AutoBarline
 \bar "|." \skip 1 \AutoEndMovementBarline
}





%Default Score Layout

\header {
tagline = \markup {"" on \simple #(strftime "%x" (localtime
(current-time)))}

}
\paper {

}
#(set-default-paper-size "a4")
#(set-global-staff-size 18)

\score { %Start of Movement
 <<

%Start of Staff
\new Staff = "voice 1"  << 
 \new Voice = "VoiceIMvmntI"  { 
  \clef treble 
{ \key f \major}
{ \time 4/4 }
 \MvmntIVoiceI} %End of voice

>>
%End of Staff

%Start of Staff
\new Staff = "voce 2"  << 
 \new Voice = "VoiceIIMvmntI"  { 
  \clef treble 
{ \key f \major}
{ \time 4/4 }
 \MvmntIVoiceII} %End of voice

>>
%End of Staff

%Start of Staff
\new Staff = "voce 3"  << 
 \new Voice = "VoiceIIIMvmntI"  { 
  \clef treble 
{ \key f \major}
{ \time 4/4 }
 \MvmntIVoiceIII} %End of voice

>>
%End of Staff

%Start of Staff
\new Staff = "voce 4"  << 
 \new Voice = "VoiceIVMvmntI"  { 
  \clef bass 
{ \key f \major}
{ \time 4/4 }
 \MvmntIVoiceIV} %End of voice

>>
%End of Staff

%Start of Staff
\new Staff = "voce 5"  << 
 \new Voice = "VoiceVMvmntI"  { 
  \clef treble 
{ \key f \major}
{ \time 4/4 }
 \MvmntIVoiceV} %End of voice
 \new Voice = "VoiceVIMvmntI"  { 
  \MvmntIVoiceVI} %End of voice
 \new Voice = "VoiceVIIMvmntI"  { 
  \MvmntIVoiceVII} %End of voice
 \new Voice = "VoiceVIIIMvmntI"  { 
  \MvmntIVoiceVIII} %End of voice

>>
%End of Staff

%Start of Staff
\new Staff = "voce 9"  << 
 \new Voice = "VoiceIXMvmntI"  { 
  \clef bass 
{ \key f \major}
{ \time 4/4 }
 \MvmntIVoiceIX} %End of voice
 \new Voice = "VoiceXMvmntI"  { 
  \MvmntIVoiceX} %End of voice

>>
%End of Staff

>>

} %End of Movement



HTH Thanks.




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Re: OT? Error importing Organ xml files made in Musescore

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2014-06-24 at 06:59 -0700, Son_V wrote:
> Hi all, can't understand why I can't import Organ xml files

I would be interested to know how Denemo's musicxml import manages with
your file - version 1.1.4 at least. Although not at all sophisticated I
don't have any examples where it fails to produce at least the bulk of
the music from a musicxml file (and then of course you have that music
in LilyPond format).
I realize you wouldn't want to use that route as a normal thing... (if
you can send me the musicxml file, I can test importing it)

regards

Richard Shann

>  that I make in
> Musescore (I find it a lot esaier to write with a direct reading of what I'
> doing, then to load the xml files in Frescodaldi to get the graphical
> output). I get this error message:
> 
> The file couldn't be converted. Error message:
> musicxml2ly: Lettura di MusicXML da /home/vincent/Musica/Cancella/c.xml
> ...
> musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond...  TIMES>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2986, in 
> main()
>   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2981, in main
> voices = convert (filename, options)
>   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2896, in convert
> update_score_setup (score, part_list, voices)
>   File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2794, in update_score_setup
> score_structure.set_part_information (part_id, staves_info)
>   File "/usr/share/lilypond/2.16.2/python/musicexp.py", line 1935, in
> set_part_information
> self.contents.set_part_information (part_id, staves_info)
>   File "/usr/share/lilypond/2.16.2/python/musicexp.py", line 1774, in
> set_part_information
> c.set_part_information (part_name, staves_info)
> AttributeError: PartGroupInfo instance has no attribute
> 'set_part_information'
> 
> Never had a problem with choir staves. What can I do? Many thanks.
> 
> 
> 
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> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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OT? Error importing Organ xml files made in Musescore

[Son_V]

Hi all, can't understand why I can't import Organ xml files that I make in
Musescore (I find it a lot esaier to write with a direct reading of what I'
doing, then to load the xml files in Frescodaldi to get the graphical
output). I get this error message:

The file couldn't be converted. Error message:
musicxml2ly: Lettura di MusicXML da /home/vincent/Musica/Cancella/c.xml
...
musicxml2ly: Conversione nelle espressioni di LilyPond... 
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2986, in 
main()
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2981, in main
voices = convert (filename, options)
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2896, in convert
update_score_setup (score, part_list, voices)
  File "/usr/bin/musicxml2ly", line 2794, in update_score_setup
score_structure.set_part_information (part_id, staves_info)
  File "/usr/share/lilypond/2.16.2/python/musicexp.py", line 1935, in
set_part_information
self.contents.set_part_information (part_id, staves_info)
  File "/usr/share/lilypond/2.16.2/python/musicexp.py", line 1774, in
set_part_information
c.set_part_information (part_name, staves_info)
AttributeError: PartGroupInfo instance has no attribute
'set_part_information'

Never had a problem with choir staves. What can I do? Many thanks.



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Re: MuseScore Front End

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Federico Bruni writes:

> Some weeks ago it's been reported here a tweet saying that MuseScore
> developers will drop the lilypond export and focus on musicxml export.

Yes, I had a chat about that with Thomas Bonte.  LilyPond export was
in dire need of some love and the best thing to do with code that
needs a lot of love and does not get it, is to throw it out.

Jan

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Re: MuseScore Front End

[Federico Bruni]

Il 04/feb/2014 03:09 "SoundsFromSound"  ha
scritto:
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. I have never used MuseScore before
> and I've looked into it quickly tonight. I'm confused about one aspect of
it
> - does it actually /use /LilyPond for it's engraving? Or is it a
completely
> separate and stand-alone engraving software that outputs on its own? I
> didn't know if it was some sort of front end like Frescobaldi or simply
not
> Lily-/anything /at all.
>

Janek told me that they use the Feta font, which might lead to think that
the typesetting "engine' is lilypond. But MuseScore has its own typesetting
engine.

Some weeks ago it's been reported here a tweet saying that MuseScore
developers will drop the lilypond export and focus on musicxml export.
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Re: MuseScore Front End

[SoundsFromSound]

Graeme Lee wrote
>> Hi Graeme,
>>
>> Oh ok thanks! I couldn't quite tell for sure because at a /quick /glance
>> MuseScore output looks a little like Lilypond, but then again once you
>> /really /look, not really at all. My eyes were clearly playing tricks on
>> me
>> I guess.
>>
>> Ben
>>
> 
> Musescore uses the feta font (slightly modified) - which is why it might 
> look almost identical at first glance.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Graeme
> 
> 
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That would explain it :)



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Re: MuseScore Front End

[Graeme Lee]

Hi Graeme,

Oh ok thanks! I couldn't quite tell for sure because at a /quick /glance
MuseScore output looks a little like Lilypond, but then again once you
/really /look, not really at all. My eyes were clearly playing tricks on me
I guess.

Ben



Musescore uses the feta font (slightly modified) - which is why it might 
look almost identical at first glance.


Regards,

Graeme


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Re: MuseScore Front End

[SoundsFromSound]

Graeme Lee wrote
> Hi Ben.
> 
> It's stand-alone (like Sibelius/Finale).
> 
> I used it before I knew better, I mean, knew about Lilypond.
> 
> Graeme
> 
> 
> On 4-Feb 13:08, SoundsFromSound wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. I have never used MuseScore
>> before
>> and I've looked into it quickly tonight. I'm confused about one aspect of
>> it
>> - does it actually /use /LilyPond for it's engraving? Or is it a
>> completely
>> separate and stand-alone engraving software that outputs on its own? I
>> didn't know if it was some sort of front end like Frescobaldi or simply
>> not
>> Lily-/anything /at all.
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> composer | sound designer
>> LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond
>> --

Hi Graeme,

Oh ok thanks! I couldn't quite tell for sure because at a /quick /glance
MuseScore output looks a little like Lilypond, but then again once you
/really /look, not really at all. My eyes were clearly playing tricks on me
I guess.

Ben



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Re: MuseScore Front End

[Graeme Lee]

Hi Ben.

It's stand-alone (like Sibelius/Finale).

I used it before I knew better, I mean, knew about Lilypond.

Graeme


On 4-Feb 13:08, SoundsFromSound wrote:

Hey everyone,

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. I have never used MuseScore before
and I've looked into it quickly tonight. I'm confused about one aspect of it
- does it actually /use /LilyPond for it's engraving? Or is it a completely
separate and stand-alone engraving software that outputs on its own? I
didn't know if it was some sort of front end like Frescobaldi or simply not
Lily-/anything /at all.

Ben



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MuseScore Front End

[SoundsFromSound]

Hey everyone,

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. I have never used MuseScore before
and I've looked into it quickly tonight. I'm confused about one aspect of it
- does it actually /use /LilyPond for it's engraving? Or is it a completely
separate and stand-alone engraving software that outputs on its own? I
didn't know if it was some sort of front end like Frescobaldi or simply not
Lily-/anything /at all.

Ben



-
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LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond
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Re: export to musescore

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 11/13/2013 12:00 PM, Peter Bjuhr wrote:


On 11/12/2013 09:40 AM, Urs Liska wrote:


the way to go would be MusicXML export.
While this wish has popped up every now and then for years, Peter 
Bjuhr has just started to give it an actual try. We don't know how 
far this will get, but it will at least be a start for this very 
important improvement.
When we've sorted out the options and have something like a "roadmap" 
we'll post about it again.


I'd like to add that the actual development is partly taking place in 
the development version of Frescobaldi, perhaps someone has seen the 
menu element there and wondered. It's still very basic and limited so 
I would definitely hesitate to promote any real use of it besides for 
testing purposes.





Maybe I should also clarify that the roadmap Urs is writing about is for 
a LilyPond export and not just for Frescobaldi users. We hope to get 
back with more info about this soon...


Best
Peter


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Re: export to musescore

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 11/12/2013 09:40 AM, Urs Liska wrote:

Am 12.11.2013 09:06, schrieb Stefan Thomas:

Dear community,
is there a way to export lilypond to musescore?
I don't want to give up using lilypond, but when I work with students 
and pupils, I've experienced that they have a lot of difficulties in 
using lilypond and that they prefer with a gui.

All the best
Stefan



Hi Thomas,

the way to go would be MusicXML export.
While this wish has popped up every now and then for years, Peter 
Bjuhr has just started to give it an actual try. We don't know how far 
this will get, but it will at least be a start for this very important 
improvement.
When we've sorted out the options and have something like a "roadmap" 
we'll post about it again.


Urs




I'd like to add that the actual development is partly taking place in 
the development version of Frescobaldi, perhaps someone has seen the 
menu element there and wondered. It's still very basic and limited so I 
would definitely hesitate to promote any real use of it besides for 
testing purposes.


Stefan, maybe it could be interesting to know something of the level of 
complexity of the LilyPond code you wish to export or even a short 
example. Then at least I could tell you how far away a successful export 
is at this point.


Best
Peter

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Re: export to musescore

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2013-11-12 at 19:16 +0100, Stefan Thomas wrote:
> Dear Richard,
> 
> I've tried to open a lilypond-file with denemo, but it didn't work,
> unfortunately.

Yes - what I had in mind was to use Denemo to create the LilyPond you
need (then you can pass the Denemo file to your students). Only a
limited amount of LilyPond syntax is parsed by Denemo. What works best
is pasting LilyPond notes into a staff in Denemo, but sadly whole
LilyPond file import rarely succeeds without pruning out various
constructs that Denemo doesn't cope with.

Richard


> 
> On Tue, 2013-11-12 at 09:40 +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
> > Am 12.11.2013 09:06, schrieb Stefan Thomas:
> > > Dear community,
> > > is there a way to export lilypond to musescore?
> > > I don't want to give up using lilypond, but when I work with
> > students 
> > > and pupils, I've experienced that they have a lot of difficulties
> > in 
> > > using lilypond and that they prefer with a gui.
> > > All the best
> > > Stefan
> > >
> > 
> > Hi Thomas,
> > 
> > the way to go would be MusicXML export. 
> I would say the way to go is use Denemo and get the students to do so
> too. That way you get the LilyPond typesetting across the whole class.
> (But I would :) )
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
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Re: export to musescore

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear Richard,
I've tried to open a lilypond-file with denemo, but it didn't work,
unfortunately.

On Tue, 2013-11-12 at 09:40 +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
> >* Am 12.11.2013 09:06, schrieb Stefan Thomas:*
> >* > Dear community,*
> >* > is there a way to export lilypond to musescore?*
> >* > I don't want to give up using lilypond, but when I work with*
> >* students *
> >* > and pupils, I've experienced that they have a lot of difficulties*
> >* in *
> >* > using lilypond and that they prefer with a gui.*
> >* > All the best*
> >* > Stefan*
> >* >*
> >
> >* Hi Thomas,*
> >
> >* the way to go would be MusicXML export. *
> I would say the way to go is use Denemo and get the students to do so
> too. That way you get the LilyPond typesetting across the whole class.
> (But I would :) )
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
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Re: export to musescore

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2013-11-12 at 09:40 +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
> Am 12.11.2013 09:06, schrieb Stefan Thomas:
> > Dear community,
> > is there a way to export lilypond to musescore?
> > I don't want to give up using lilypond, but when I work with
> students 
> > and pupils, I've experienced that they have a lot of difficulties
> in 
> > using lilypond and that they prefer with a gui.
> > All the best
> > Stefan
> >
> 
> Hi Thomas,
> 
> the way to go would be MusicXML export. 
I would say the way to go is use Denemo and get the students to do so
too. That way you get the LilyPond typesetting across the whole class.
(But I would :) )

Richard



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Re: export to musescore

[Urs Liska]

Am 12.11.2013 09:06, schrieb Stefan Thomas:

Dear community,
is there a way to export lilypond to musescore?
I don't want to give up using lilypond, but when I work with students 
and pupils, I've experienced that they have a lot of difficulties in 
using lilypond and that they prefer with a gui.

All the best
Stefan



Hi Thomas,

the way to go would be MusicXML export.
While this wish has popped up every now and then for years, Peter Bjuhr 
has just started to give it an actual try. We don't know how far this 
will get, but it will at least be a start for this very important 
improvement.
When we've sorted out the options and have something like a "roadmap" 
we'll post about it again.


Urs

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export to musescore

[Stefan Thomas]

Dear community,
is there a way to export lilypond to musescore?
I don't want to give up using lilypond, but when I work with students and
pupils, I've experienced that they have a lot of difficulties in using
lilypond and that they prefer with a gui.
All the best
Stefan
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

Thank you - 

The comparison with LilyPond is now up on the Denemo website:

http://denemo.org/compareSibelius

altogether, these examples (not selected to favor LilyPond, chosen by
MuseScore and at random from IMSLP) show the benefit of not trying to
typeset note-by-note as the music is entered.
This method of comparison is not robust against manipulation, however:
Sibelius and Finale could take extra care typesetting when importing
music, but my guess is that they haven't bothered.
If anyone would like to hand enter some of that music to see if the
MusicXML import is doing anything fancy that would be good (but a lot of
work, of course, else you wouldn't be reading here :) )

Richard


On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 22:10 +0100, Phil Holmes wrote:
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Richard Shann" 
> To: "Phil Holmes" 
> Cc: "Mats Bengtsson" ; 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 5:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc
> 
> 
> > Great! They are both creative commons xxx,
> >
> >  > justify="center" valign="bottom">Copyright © 2012 Marc Sabatella
> > Licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0
> > License
> >
> > the Adon from IMSLP, so ok, but you can send them direct if you like.
> 
> Here you go.  These are imported from MusicXML with no tweaking, and 
> exported to PDF, with the full version of Sibelius 7.  To be honest, 
> Sibelius isn't normally _this_ bad.
> 
> --
> Phil Holmes 



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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 11:34 -0700, arnepe wrote:
> ok and done, both pdf's are on their way.

And here (last two examples) are the resultant comparisons:

http://denemo.org/compareFinale

Please check that I am not misrepresenting LilyPond here. I have put a
command into Denemo to fix slurs that are very steep with an accidental
that gets cut through using the tweak

\\once \\override Slur #'details #'edge-attraction-factor = #1 

which I found on the issue ticket for this. It affects the Adon piece
(bar 5 lower staff), unfortunately (and strangely it was not affected
when I had the dummy lyrics before); if there is any legitimate way of
not drawing attention to this bug I would like to hear about it. Only
MuseScore has difficulty with this bar, and then only slightly.

Richard


> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Comparing-LilyPond-with-Sibelius-Finale-Musescore-etc-tp148220p148392.html
> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[arnepe]

ok and done, both pdf's are on their way.



--
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Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 09:42 -0700, arnepe wrote:
> I do have both Sibelius (7) and Finale (2012), if needed ...

Well Phil Holmes has done Sib 7 it seems, so if you could do the same
for Finale that would be great (the .xml files are attached to two
earlier emails from me in this thread).

Richard



> 
> 
> cheers
> Arne
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Comparing-LilyPond-with-Sibelius-Finale-Musescore-etc-tp148220p148387.html
> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[arnepe]

I do have both Sibelius (7) and Finale (2012), if needed ...


cheers
Arne



--
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http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Comparing-LilyPond-with-Sibelius-Finale-Musescore-etc-tp148220p148387.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

Great! They are both creative commons xxx, 

 Copyright © 2012 Marc Sabatella
Licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 3.0
License

the Adon from IMSLP, so ok, but you can send them direct if you like.

Richard



On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 17:05 +0100, Phil Holmes wrote:
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Richard Shann" 
> To: "Phil Holmes" 
> Cc: "Mats Bengtsson" ; 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 5:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc
> 
> 
> > Oh, and, of course, it would be good to see how Sibelius gets on
> > re-importing the attached vocal piece, which was apparently generated on
> > some version of Sibelius. (It came from searching IMSLP for "sibelius"
> > and "musicxml" and hunting around)
> >
> > Richard
> 
> 
> I've done both of these.  One has copyright markings and so I'm loathe to 
> post it here.  Is the other copyright free?
> 
> --
> Phil Holmes 
> 



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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Shann" 

To: "Phil Holmes" 
Cc: "Mats Bengtsson" ; 
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc



Oh, and, of course, it would be good to see how Sibelius gets on
re-importing the attached vocal piece, which was apparently generated on
some version of Sibelius. (It came from searching IMSLP for "sibelius"
and "musicxml" and hunting around)

Richard



I've done both of these.  One has copyright markings and so I'm loathe to 
post it here.  Is the other copyright free?


--
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Urs Liska]

Am 23.07.2013 19:11, schrieb Richard Shann:

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 15:12 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:

Am 23.07.2013 15:09, schrieb Richard Shann:

On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 14:03 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:

Am 20.07.2013 17:57, schrieb Richard Shann:


I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting compared
with those of well-known alternatives:

http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters

If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
published work that I could find with a quick search - then please let
me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
music examples...).

Richard



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What about the LilyPond and Finale renderings on that page:
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-improving-the-output.html?

Reading this page I see you refer to "the model" but it is not so clear
what this is

In this case the printed score from which I typeset the example with
LilyPond and someone else with Finale 2008.

Ah, I see, you are able to talk about "Enter the plain music, correctly
assign voices and don't apply any manual corrections" in the context of
Finale
Actually I can't talk that way about Finale - because I don't know it. 
What I formulated is _my_ LilyPond perspective on it, and I asked Janek 
to typeset the example with Finale with the given premises. I actually 
don't know what he did to come up with that result.

- with many such programs you cannot certain markings or text
without manually positioning it, it just floats at the end of the mouse
pointer until you click.


This leads nicely to another point I wanted to throw in.
This whole discussion reminds me of one topic I have on my wishlist for 
lilypondblog.org: How can you tell in a Finale or Sibelius score what is 
default and what is manually tweaked? This isn't intended to be a 
'display of superiority' but rather a real matter of interest because I 
don't know (anymore) how a WYSIWYG user would think about such issues 
(if he is aware of them at all).


If anybody feels inspired to write something in that direction (e.g. 
showing an example, formulating a set of questions etc.) feel free to 
contact Janek or me.


Urs


Richard






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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Phil Holmes]

Sib 7.

--
Phil Holmes


  - Original Message - 
  From: Alex Yoder 
  To: Phil Holmes 
  Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 7:45 PM
  Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc


  Which version of Sibelius?  I believe it was Sibelius 7 that introduced the 
"magnetic layout" feature which moves things around as you place them.  Of 
course, that's still nothing like Lilypond.


  On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Phil Holmes  wrote:

- Original Message - From: "Richard Shann" 

To: "Urs Liska" 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc




  On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 15:12 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:

Am 23.07.2013 15:09, schrieb Richard Shann:
> On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 14:03 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:
>> Am 20.07.2013 17:57, schrieb Richard Shann:
>>
>>> I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting >>> 
compared
>>> with those of well-known alternatives:
>>>
>>> http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters
>>>
>>> If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
>>> published work that I could find with a quick search - then please 
>>> let
>>> me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
>>> My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
>>> some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
>>> music examples...).
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> lilypond-user mailing list
>>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>> What about the LilyPond and Finale renderings on that page:
>> 
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-improving-the-output.html?
> Reading this page I see you refer to "the model" but it is not so 
clear
> what this is
In this case the printed score from which I typeset the example with
LilyPond and someone else with Finale 2008.


  Ah, I see, you are able to talk about "Enter the plain music, correctly
  assign voices and don't apply any manual corrections" in the context of
  Finale - with many such programs you cannot certain markings or text
  without manually positioning it, it just floats at the end of the mouse
  pointer until you click.




Without wishing to bias any result, I have to say that Sibelius is 
_appalling_ at placing lyrics by default.

--
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Alex Yoder]

Which version of Sibelius?  I believe it was Sibelius 7 that introduced the
"magnetic layout" feature which moves things around as you place them.  Of
course, that's still nothing like Lilypond.

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Phil Holmes  wrote:

> - Original Message - From: "Richard Shann" <
> richard.sh...@virgin.net>
> To: "Urs Liska" 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc
>
>
>
>  On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 15:12 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:
>>
>>> Am 23.07.2013 15:09, schrieb Richard Shann:
>>> > On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 14:03 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:
>>> >> Am 20.07.2013 17:57, schrieb Richard Shann:
>>> >>
>>> >>> I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting >>>
>>> compared
>>> >>> with those of well-known alternatives:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> http://denemo.org/**CompareScorewriters<http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
>>> >>> published work that I could find with a quick search - then please
>>> >>> let
>>> >>> me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
>>> >>> My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
>>> >>> some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
>>> >>> music examples...).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Richard
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> __**_
>>> >>> lilypond-user mailing list
>>> >>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>>> >>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/**listinfo/lilypond-user<https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user>
>>> >> What about the LilyPond and Finale renderings on that page:
>>> >> http://lilypond.ursliska.de/**notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/**
>>> tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-**improving-the-output.html<http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-improving-the-output.html>
>>> ?
>>> > Reading this page I see you refer to "the model" but it is not so clear
>>> > what this is
>>> In this case the printed score from which I typeset the example with
>>> LilyPond and someone else with Finale 2008.
>>>
>>
>> Ah, I see, you are able to talk about "Enter the plain music, correctly
>> assign voices and don't apply any manual corrections" in the context of
>> Finale - with many such programs you cannot certain markings or text
>> without manually positioning it, it just floats at the end of the mouse
>> pointer until you click.
>>
>
>
> Without wishing to bias any result, I have to say that Sibelius is
> _appalling_ at placing lyrics by default.
>
> --
> Phil Holmes
>
> __**_
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/**listinfo/lilypond-user<https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user>
>
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Shann" 

To: "Urs Liska" 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc



On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 15:12 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:

Am 23.07.2013 15:09, schrieb Richard Shann:
> On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 14:03 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:
>> Am 20.07.2013 17:57, schrieb Richard Shann:
>>
>>> I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting 
>>> compared

>>> with those of well-known alternatives:
>>>
>>> http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters
>>>
>>> If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
>>> published work that I could find with a quick search - then please 
>>> let

>>> me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
>>> My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
>>> some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
>>> music examples...).
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> lilypond-user mailing list
>>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>> What about the LilyPond and Finale renderings on that page:
>> 
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-improving-the-output.html?
> Reading this page I see you refer to "the model" but it is not so clear
> what this is
In this case the printed score from which I typeset the example with
LilyPond and someone else with Finale 2008.


Ah, I see, you are able to talk about "Enter the plain music, correctly
assign voices and don't apply any manual corrections" in the context of
Finale - with many such programs you cannot certain markings or text
without manually positioning it, it just floats at the end of the mouse
pointer until you click.



Without wishing to bias any result, I have to say that Sibelius is 
_appalling_ at placing lyrics by default.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Carl Peterson]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Richard Shann wrote:

> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 13:01 -0400, Carl Peterson wrote:
> > This may be what you're getting at with the musicXML idea, but what
> > about doing what we usually do to demonstrate lilypond...take a
> > reference score, and set it up with no manual edits? So, for example,
> > in Finale you would be able to connect slurs from notehead to
> > notehead, but not adjust the curve in any way. In LP, you would add
> > the parentheses and nothing else. This eliminates any issue of
> > musicXML translation and trying to get the musicXML figured out may
> > end up being like the post a few weeks ago where the poster decided it
> > was easier to re-input the score than to deal with converting
> > software.
>
> We have  just crossed in the post on this issue. We would need willing
> owners of proprietary programs to do signifcant work ...


Finale and Sibelius offer 30-day trial versions of their software, and
Finale has a free version of their software, Notepad (
http://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale-notepad/) that is mainly limited
in number of instruments and export options.
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 13:01 -0400, Carl Peterson wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Richard Shann
>  wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 17:23 +0200, pls wrote:
> 
> >  (both MusicXML and their corresponding PDF/PNG files) as
> reference files:
> http://www.musicxml.com/music-in-musicxml/example-set/.  They
> cover quite a broad spectrum of music notation.  I would
> simply open these files with different applications and save
> the rendered scores each time as PDF files without changing /
> tweaking anything.  Then we can compare the resulting PDF
> files.
> >
> > Of course this doesn't necessarily tell anything about the
> quality of music engraving of the compared applications.  It
> rather shows the quality of the file format conversion of
> these programs.
> 
> Yes, for this reason I suggest we do *not* do this, as it will
> distract
> attention from the main point that people do not understand,
> namely that
> just by inputting the music they want to play into LilyPond
> they can get
> a nicely playable score; whereas if they input the music into
> a
> drawing-based program they will have to position things by
> eye, using
> the mouse.
> (There is a secondary point, that if they alter the music in a
> LilyPond
> score the re-positioning of everything else takes place
> automatically,
> which often it will not with a drawing program).
> 
> We will not help people by replacing this insight with
> observations
> about how bad musicxml2ly or, worse still Denemo's musicxml
> import is.
> Well, in fact they are not so bad, inasmuch as it would be
> self-defeating to import all manner of typesetting information
> into
> Denemo or LilyPond, these importers are there to save typing
> in reams of
> notes and durations basically. But, we will not communicate
> the main
> message this way.
> 
> So what we need is some musicXML files which just contain some
> basic
> information, e.g.
> 
> notes durations and markings
> 
> the sort of thing someone might expect to type/click in to a
> program to
> tell it about the music they want.
> 
> This would take some donkey work, though (potentially
> stripping out
> information about beaming, slur positioning ...), and it *may*
> not be
> needed. A first stab might be simply exporting scores from the
> commercial programs in musicXML and then reading them back. I
> did this
>     with MuseScore http://denemo.org/compare#Example_2 and the
> gives a good
> insight into how much hand-tweaking is needed in MuseScore.
> This would
> not illustrate the point if Musescore exported more
> information to
> musicXML and imported more back and it may not work for other
> programs
> which may do this, but it *may* work just fine.
> 
> 
> 
> This may be what you're getting at with the musicXML idea, but what
> about doing what we usually do to demonstrate lilypond...take a
> reference score, and set it up with no manual edits? So, for example,
> in Finale you would be able to connect slurs from notehead to
> notehead, but not adjust the curve in any way. In LP, you would add
> the parentheses and nothing else. This eliminates any issue of
> musicXML translation and trying to get the musicXML figured out may
> end up being like the post a few weeks ago where the poster decided it
> was easier to re-input the score than to deal with converting
> software.

We have  just crossed in the post on this issue. We would need willing
owners of proprietary programs to do signifcant work ...

Richard






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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 15:12 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:
> Am 23.07.2013 15:09, schrieb Richard Shann:
> > On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 14:03 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:
> >> Am 20.07.2013 17:57, schrieb Richard Shann:
> >>
> >>> I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting compared
> >>> with those of well-known alternatives:
> >>>
> >>> http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters
> >>>
> >>> If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
> >>> published work that I could find with a quick search - then please let
> >>> me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
> >>> My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
> >>> some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
> >>> music examples...).
> >>>
> >>> Richard
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> lilypond-user mailing list
> >>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> >>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> >> What about the LilyPond and Finale renderings on that page:
> >> http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-improving-the-output.html?
> > Reading this page I see you refer to "the model" but it is not so clear
> > what this is
> In this case the printed score from which I typeset the example with 
> LilyPond and someone else with Finale 2008.

Ah, I see, you are able to talk about "Enter the plain music, correctly
assign voices and don't apply any manual corrections" in the context of
Finale - with many such programs you cannot certain markings or text
without manually positioning it, it just floats at the end of the mouse
pointer until you click.

Richard






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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Carl Peterson]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Richard Shann wrote:

> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 17:23 +0200, pls wrote:
>
> >  (both MusicXML and their corresponding PDF/PNG files) as reference
> files: http://www.musicxml.com/music-in-musicxml/example-set/.  They
> cover quite a broad spectrum of music notation.  I would simply open these
> files with different applications and save the rendered scores each time as
> PDF files without changing / tweaking anything.  Then we can compare the
> resulting PDF files.
> >
> > Of course this doesn't necessarily tell anything about the quality of
> music engraving of the compared applications.  It rather shows the quality
> of the file format conversion of these programs.
>
> Yes, for this reason I suggest we do *not* do this, as it will distract
> attention from the main point that people do not understand, namely that
> just by inputting the music they want to play into LilyPond they can get
> a nicely playable score; whereas if they input the music into a
> drawing-based program they will have to position things by eye, using
> the mouse.
> (There is a secondary point, that if they alter the music in a LilyPond
> score the re-positioning of everything else takes place automatically,
> which often it will not with a drawing program).
>
> We will not help people by replacing this insight with observations
> about how bad musicxml2ly or, worse still Denemo's musicxml import is.
> Well, in fact they are not so bad, inasmuch as it would be
> self-defeating to import all manner of typesetting information into
> Denemo or LilyPond, these importers are there to save typing in reams of
> notes and durations basically. But, we will not communicate the main
> message this way.
>
> So what we need is some musicXML files which just contain some basic
> information, e.g.
>
> notes durations and markings
>
> the sort of thing someone might expect to type/click in to a program to
> tell it about the music they want.
>
> This would take some donkey work, though (potentially stripping out
> information about beaming, slur positioning ...), and it *may* not be
> needed. A first stab might be simply exporting scores from the
> commercial programs in musicXML and then reading them back. I did this
> with MuseScore http://denemo.org/compare#Example_2 and the gives a good
> insight into how much hand-tweaking is needed in MuseScore. This would
> not illustrate the point if Musescore exported more information to
> musicXML and imported more back and it may not work for other programs
> which may do this, but it *may* work just fine.
>
>
This may be what you're getting at with the musicXML idea, but what about
doing what we usually do to demonstrate lilypond...take a reference score,
and set it up with no manual edits? So, for example, in Finale you would be
able to connect slurs from notehead to notehead, but not adjust the curve
in any way. In LP, you would add the parentheses and nothing else. This
eliminates any issue of musicXML translation and trying to get the musicXML
figured out may end up being like the post a few weeks ago where the poster
decided it was easier to re-input the score than to deal with converting
software.


>
> Richard
>

Carl
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 17:23 +0200, pls wrote:
> On 23.07.2013, at 15:03, Phil Holmes  wrote:
> 
> > - Original Message - From: "Richard Shann" 
> > 
> > To: "Mats Bengtsson" 
> > Cc: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:06 PM
> > Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc
> >> 
> >> Well without considerable expense I can't really test Sibelius or
> >> Finale, just report on what others have published in its name. They may
> >> have hopeless skills in music typesetting. Where these comparisons are
> >> strong is where the comparison is between two imports from MusicXML. If
> >> anyone has access to the commercial programs and can do some MusicXML
> >> imports then we could get an insight into the un-tweaked performance of
> >> them.
> What a coincidence: I was actually planning a blog entry comparing the 
> MusicXML-Import of various programs.  
> > 
> > I can import musicXML into the latest version of Sibelius (7) and report on 
> > its output if you want.
> It would be great to collaborate! 
> 
> I'd recommend to standardize the comparison by using these sample files

I thought about this too: it has the advantage of being completely
objective, which in a world full of advertising hype is a good thing;
people would not have to take your word for it, they could try it
themselves. HOWEVER ...

>  (both MusicXML and their corresponding PDF/PNG files) as reference files: 
> http://www.musicxml.com/music-in-musicxml/example-set/.  They cover quite a 
> broad spectrum of music notation.  I would simply open these files with 
> different applications and save the rendered scores each time as PDF files 
> without changing / tweaking anything.  Then we can compare the resulting PDF 
> files.
> 
> Of course this doesn't necessarily tell anything about the quality of music 
> engraving of the compared applications.  It rather shows the quality of the 
> file format conversion of these programs.

Yes, for this reason I suggest we do *not* do this, as it will distract
attention from the main point that people do not understand, namely that
just by inputting the music they want to play into LilyPond they can get
a nicely playable score; whereas if they input the music into a
drawing-based program they will have to position things by eye, using
the mouse.
(There is a secondary point, that if they alter the music in a LilyPond
score the re-positioning of everything else takes place automatically,
which often it will not with a drawing program).

We will not help people by replacing this insight with observations
about how bad musicxml2ly or, worse still Denemo's musicxml import is.
Well, in fact they are not so bad, inasmuch as it would be
self-defeating to import all manner of typesetting information into
Denemo or LilyPond, these importers are there to save typing in reams of
notes and durations basically. But, we will not communicate the main
message this way.

So what we need is some musicXML files which just contain some basic
information, e.g.

notes durations and markings

the sort of thing someone might expect to type/click in to a program to
tell it about the music they want.

This would take some donkey work, though (potentially stripping out
information about beaming, slur positioning ...), and it *may* not be
needed. A first stab might be simply exporting scores from the
commercial programs in musicXML and then reading them back. I did this
with MuseScore http://denemo.org/compare#Example_2 and the gives a good
insight into how much hand-tweaking is needed in MuseScore. This would
not illustrate the point if Musescore exported more information to
musicXML and imported more back and it may not work for other programs
which may do this, but it *may* work just fine.


Richard



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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[pls]

On 23.07.2013, at 15:03, Phil Holmes  wrote:

> - Original Message - From: "Richard Shann" 
> To: "Mats Bengtsson" 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc
>> 
>> Well without considerable expense I can't really test Sibelius or
>> Finale, just report on what others have published in its name. They may
>> have hopeless skills in music typesetting. Where these comparisons are
>> strong is where the comparison is between two imports from MusicXML. If
>> anyone has access to the commercial programs and can do some MusicXML
>> imports then we could get an insight into the un-tweaked performance of
>> them.
What a coincidence: I was actually planning a blog entry comparing the 
MusicXML-Import of various programs.  
> 
> I can import musicXML into the latest version of Sibelius (7) and report on 
> its output if you want.
It would be great to collaborate! 

I'd recommend to standardize the comparison by using these sample files (both 
MusicXML and their corresponding PDF/PNG files) as reference files: 
http://www.musicxml.com/music-in-musicxml/example-set/.  They cover quite a 
broad spectrum of music notation.  I would simply open these files with 
different applications and save the rendered scores each time as PDF files 
without changing / tweaking anything.  Then we can compare the resulting PDF 
files.

Of course this doesn't necessarily tell anything about the quality of music 
engraving of the compared applications.  It rather shows the quality of the 
file format conversion of these programs.  musicxml2ly will not score very well 
here, I'm afraid.  I have already tested quite a few of these files...

In the same vein I'd like to do a comparison of various OMR applications with 
these sample files...
> 
> --
> Phil Holmes 
> 
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 14:03 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:
> Am 20.07.2013 17:57, schrieb Richard Shann:
> 
> > I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting compared
> > with those of well-known alternatives:
> > 
> > http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters
> > 
> > If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
> > published work that I could find with a quick search - then please let
> > me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
> > My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
> > some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
> > music examples...).
> > 
> > Richard
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > lilypond-user@gnu.org
> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> What about the LilyPond and Finale renderings on that page:
> http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-improving-the-output.html?

Reading this page I see you refer to "the model" but it is not so clear
what this is: a musicXML file could provide a fixed point of reference,
though its rag-bag specification does not help. And worse, the musicXML
format is capable of holding descriptions of where to break lines etc;
we really want to compare the ability to generate this sort of thing.

Could we arrive at a definition of what a minimal specification of a
piece of music notation that described some conventional Western music
but not how it is to be typeset? I'm not sure. Even having added
"conventional Western" to that sentence.

Richard


> Unfortunately TYPO3 scrambled the links to the full-size images, but
> it already gives you an idea.
> I like this example because it displays a task LilyPond does _not_
> manage - but then shows that Finale behaves much worse with it.
> (But to be honest: it's Finale 2008 and should maybe rerendered with a
> current version).
> 
> Urs
> ___
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Urs Liska]

Am 23.07.2013 15:09, schrieb Richard Shann:

On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 14:03 +0200, Urs Liska wrote:

Am 20.07.2013 17:57, schrieb Richard Shann:


I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting compared
with those of well-known alternatives:

http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters

If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
published work that I could find with a quick search - then please let
me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
music examples...).

Richard



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What about the LilyPond and Finale renderings on that page:
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-improving-the-output.html?

Reading this page I see you refer to "the model" but it is not so clear
what this is
In this case the printed score from which I typeset the example with 
LilyPond and someone else with Finale 2008.

: a musicXML file could provide a fixed point of reference,
though its rag-bag specification does not help. And worse, the musicXML
format is capable of holding descriptions of where to break lines etc;
we really want to compare the ability to generate this sort of thing.

Could we arrive at a definition of what a minimal specification of a
piece of music notation that described some conventional Western music
but not how it is to be typeset? I'm not sure. Even having added
"conventional Western" to that sentence.

Richard



Unfortunately TYPO3 scrambled the links to the full-size images, but
it already gives you an idea.
I like this example because it displays a task LilyPond does _not_
manage - but then shows that Finale behaves much worse with it.
(But to be honest: it's Finale 2008 and should maybe rerendered with a
current version).

Urs
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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Shann" 

To: "Mats Bengtsson" 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc


Well without considerable expense I can't really test Sibelius or
Finale, just report on what others have published in its name. They may
have hopeless skills in music typesetting. Where these comparisons are
strong is where the comparison is between two imports from MusicXML. If
anyone has access to the commercial programs and can do some MusicXML
imports then we could get an insight into the un-tweaked performance of
them.



I can import musicXML into the latest version of Sibelius (7) and report on 
its output if you want.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 23:20 +0200, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
> 
> > I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting compared
> > with those of well-known alternatives:
> >
> > http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters
> >
> > If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
> > published work that I could find with a quick search - then please let
> > me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
> > My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
> > some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
> > music examples...).
> >
> > Richard
> It's nice to have these comparisons, but I have a couple of comments:
> - You should specify what the version number of the respective programs. 
I have added the version numbers that I have information about
> Several of the similar comparisons that have been discussed earlier on 
> the list, have been based on fairly old versions of Finale and Sibelius, 
> which may be unfair.

Well without considerable expense I can't really test Sibelius or
Finale, just report on what others have published in its name. They may
have hopeless skills in music typesetting. Where these comparisons are
strong is where the comparison is between two imports from MusicXML. If
anyone has access to the commercial programs and can do some MusicXML
imports then we could get an insight into the un-tweaked performance of
them.

> - I really like that you point out that you are not fully certain how 
> much tweaking was used in the original typesettings, but it would of 
> course be even better to have example where you have this knowledge. If 
> you search the mailing list archives,
this is something I know I am not good at (searching) I just tried
starting from the lilypond.org site and failed to find a link there to
this mailing list from which I hopefully could launch a search, which is
either a bug or the measure of my incompetence. (I looked under
community)
>  you should find several examples 
> of similar comparisons and at least one or two of these included a 
> fairly detailed comparison of the amount of tweaking that was needed for 
> the different programs.
Searching my local copy of this mailing list for "comparison" "sibelius"
and "finale" didn't get me there...
> - In the Sibelius comparison, it's really a pity that you didn't include 
> the correct lyrics. The alignment and layout of lyrics is clearly an 
> important issue in music typesetting, so I don't agree with the comment 
> that these are not important. In particular, it's a pity that they dummy 
> lyrics you have inserted for the Denemo/LilyPond version doesn't use 
> correct hyphens, i.e.
> Lo -- rem ip -- sum
> instead of
> Lo- rem ip- sum
> for example. The current example gives the false impression that 
> Denemo/LilyPond isn't able to handle hyphens correctly.

Thank you for the guidance here - I don't understand lyrics conventions
- I have pasted in the correct lyrics now and hope this is ok. I didn't
really understand what was intended where slurs are used but two
syllables appeared. I used a double underscore ipse__lorem to achieve
something like that effect, but perhaps this would constitute a tweak
(although whether the effect is anyway sound music notation I rather
doubt)

The downside is that this new version has thrown up a bug (slur crashes
accidental) which I am sure you all know about

\version "2.16.0"
\score {
{ e'4( bes') }
}

why this didn't appear with the dummy lyrics version I can't imagine.

Thank you for the feedback.

Richard


> 
> Regards
> 
>  /Mats
> 



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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Mats Bengtsson]

I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting compared
with those of well-known alternatives:

http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters

If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
published work that I could find with a quick search - then please let
me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
music examples...).

Richard

It's nice to have these comparisons, but I have a couple of comments:
- You should specify what the version number of the respective programs. 
Several of the similar comparisons that have been discussed earlier on 
the list, have been based on fairly old versions of Finale and Sibelius, 
which may be unfair.
- I really like that you point out that you are not fully certain how 
much tweaking was used in the original typesettings, but it would of 
course be even better to have example where you have this knowledge. If 
you search the mailing list archives, you should find several examples 
of similar comparisons and at least one or two of these included a 
fairly detailed comparison of the amount of tweaking that was needed for 
the different programs.
- In the Sibelius comparison, it's really a pity that you didn't include 
the correct lyrics. The alignment and layout of lyrics is clearly an 
important issue in music typesetting, so I don't agree with the comment 
that these are not important. In particular, it's a pity that they dummy 
lyrics you have inserted for the Denemo/LilyPond version doesn't use 
correct hyphens, i.e.

Lo -- rem ip -- sum
instead of
Lo- rem ip- sum
for example. The current example gives the false impression that 
Denemo/LilyPond isn't able to handle hyphens correctly.


Regards

/Mats

--
=
Mats Bengtsson
Signal Processing
School of Electrical Engineering
Royal Institute of Technology (KTH)
SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
Sweden
Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463 
Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
Email: mats.bengts...@ee.kth.se
WWW: http://www.ee.kth.se/~mabe
=


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Re: Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.07.2013 17:57, schrieb Richard Shann:

I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting compared
with those of well-known alternatives:

http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters

If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
published work that I could find with a quick search - then please let
me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
music examples...).

Richard



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What about the LilyPond and Finale renderings on that page: 
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-2-improving-the-output.html?
Unfortunately TYPO3 scrambled the links to the full-size images, but it 
already gives you an idea.
I like this example because it displays a task LilyPond does _not_ 
manage - but then shows that Finale behaves much worse with it.
(But to be honest: it's Finale 2008 and should maybe rerendered with a 
current version).


Urs
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Comparing LilyPond with Sibelius, Finale, Musescore etc

[Richard Shann]

I have been compiling some examples of LilyPond's typesetting compared
with those of well-known alternatives:

http://denemo.org/CompareScorewriters

If anyone can provide better examples - these are just taken from
published work that I could find with a quick search - then please let
me know - especially if I am not doing LilyPond justice.
My examples have a common origin in MusicXML files, but there may be
some other way of standardizing the comparisons (short of re-typing
music examples...).

Richard



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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Janek Warchoł]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Urs Liska  wrote:
> We'll think about this (and some more, when I'm back and we're ready with our 
> current job ...). OK, Janek?

ok

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Urs Liska]

We'll think about this (and some more, when I'm back and we're ready with our 
current job ...). OK, Janek?
Best
Urs



"Janek Warchoł"  schrieb:

>On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 5:31 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>> There are also a few advantages [of using MuseScore]:
>>
>> a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of
>notation
>>   programs making use of an open standard.
>
>Indeed, having MusicXML exprort can give Lily more popularity.
>
>> b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain.  "You can use an
>editor
>>   of your choice" is about as helpful for the average musician as
>"You
>>   can use a lathe of your choice".
>
>LOL :D
>how true!  Valentin, that could be the next quote of the month :)
>
>> d) "I am well-versed in LilyPond.  What form do you want the entry
>in?
>>   Can I use music functions?  What note language should I be using?
>>   Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices?  Should I be
>using
>>   anonymous parallel voices?  What kind of context mods should I be
>>   using?"  "Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of
>question."
>
>Good point.
>
>That's why our KickStarter project (at least the first one) should be
>a not-very-long piece for chamber orchestra.  Or string quartet.
>Something with 3-6 staves and 5-15 pages.
>


>cheers,
>Janek
>
>PS there actually is one serious advantage of text input in a project
>like this: we could set up a git repository for it.
>
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-- 
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Jonathan Wilkes]

> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 17:31:49 +0200
> From: David Kastrup 
> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: musescore lands sponsoring?
> Message-ID: <87fwahu1lm@fencepost.gnu.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> 
> Carl Sorensen  writes:
> 
>>  Jan Nieuwenhuizen  gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>>   
>>>  Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this
>>>  sponsoring project?  What are we missing?
>> 
>>  Somebody who was willing to run a Kickstarter project and make it
>>  happen.
> 
> It is not just that.  There are also a few advantages:
> 
> a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation
>    programs making use of an open standard.

They can check-out any time they like,
But can they ever leave? :)

Let's say I look at their score and see some bad spacing among some set of 
sixteenths (and there is some bad spacing, btw).  Then I see a glaring 
enharmonic spelling of a leading-tone that the MIDI-entry got wrong and 
the editors missed (also there, btw).  Great, I say-- I'll just import the 
corresponding
MusicXML into Finale or whatever, do the tweaks, then export so that I can 
send the patch back to the project for inclusion in the next version.

Is music software X guaranteed to keep the rest of the score exactly the same, 
except for the parts I tweaked when I do the export back to MusicXML?  If so, 
that's an impressive open standard.

> 
> b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain.  "You can use an editor
>    of your choice" is about as helpful for the average musician as 
> "You
>    can use a lathe of your choice".
> 
> c) "Ok, let's assume I have a MIDI keyboard hooked up to my computer 
> for
>    note entry.  How do I go from there?" "Bring the keyboard back to 
> the
>    store.  We are not going to use it anyway."
> 
> d) "I am well-versed in LilyPond.  What form do you want the entry in?
>    Can I use music functions?  What note language should I be using?
>    Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices?  Should I be using
>    anonymous parallel voices?  What kind of context mods should I be
>    using?"  "Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of 
> question."

One thing I was thinking was that you could use tags in Lilypond to make 
editions.  Let's say someone had some crackerjack fingerings from various 
concert pianists they collected.  You could have all those available as pdfs 
while 
they all derive from the same codebase, so that when someone finally fixes the 
erroneous d-flat they only need to fix it once.  But I don't see how you could 
do 
that with Musescore.  If one wanted to add dynamics, for example, they'd be 
forced to fork the entire notation project and manually keep up with revisions 
to the original, no?

-Jonathan

> 
> -- 
> David Kastrup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
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> 
> End of lilypond-user Digest, Vol 114, Issue 145
> ***
> 

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Janek Warchoł]

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 5:31 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
> There are also a few advantages [of using MuseScore]:
>
> a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation
>   programs making use of an open standard.

Indeed, having MusicXML exprort can give Lily more popularity.

> b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain.  "You can use an editor
>   of your choice" is about as helpful for the average musician as "You
>   can use a lathe of your choice".

LOL :D
how true!  Valentin, that could be the next quote of the month :)

> d) "I am well-versed in LilyPond.  What form do you want the entry in?
>   Can I use music functions?  What note language should I be using?
>   Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices?  Should I be using
>   anonymous parallel voices?  What kind of context mods should I be
>   using?"  "Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of question."

Good point.

That's why our KickStarter project (at least the first one) should be
a not-very-long piece for chamber orchestra.  Or string quartet.
Something with 3-6 staves and 5-15 pages.

cheers,
Janek

PS there actually is one serious advantage of text input in a project
like this: we could set up a git repository for it.

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Lucas Gonze]

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 1:16 AM,   wrote:
> I know I'm rehashing old ground, but I think that these projects stand to 
> mutually benefit from each other if and only if they evolve in "natural" 
> directions given their goals.  ...  In general, the idea of LilyPond is to 
> build a master engraver - a virtual person who, using various directives, 
> creates a score following hundreds of years of engraving knowledge.

There's a lot of wisdom in your comment, Mike. I agree that the best
thing would be for Musecore and Lilypond to define themselves in
complementary ways.

David, given the idea that the soul of Lilypond is engraving, I don't
know if having musescore import Lilypond syntax is absolutely
necessary or even absolutely possible. For them to do that would
require using Lilypond as a library and constantly updating the import
routines. The insane and incredible richness of Lilypond makes a 1-1
translation nearly impossible, so Musescore would have to support only
a subset of Lilypond features.

Not that I mean to convince you to invest spare time you don't have
into musescore integration - apologies if I give that impression.

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[David Kastrup]

Carl Sorensen  writes:

> Jan Nieuwenhuizen  gnu.org> writes:
>
>  
>> Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this
>> sponsoring project?  What are we missing?
>
> Somebody who was willing to run a Kickstarter project and make it
> happen.

It is not just that.  There are also a few advantages:

a) MusicXML export means the results are usable in a variety of notation
   programs making use of an open standard.

b) volunteers can be given a complete toolchain.  "You can use an editor
   of your choice" is about as helpful for the average musician as "You
   can use a lathe of your choice".

c) "Ok, let's assume I have a MIDI keyboard hooked up to my computer for
   note entry.  How do I go from there?" "Bring the keyboard back to the
   store.  We are not going to use it anyway."

d) "I am well-versed in LilyPond.  What form do you want the entry in?
   Can I use music functions?  What note language should I be using?
   Should the voicing be reflected in ad-hoc voices?  Should I be using
   anonymous parallel voices?  What kind of context mods should I be
   using?"  "Uh, we better form a committee for that kind of question."

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Carl Sorensen]

Jan Nieuwenhuizen  gnu.org> writes:

 
> Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this
> sponsoring project?  What are we missing?

Somebody who was willing to run a Kickstarter project and make it happen.

The people who put the project together choose their tools, mostly from 
personal preference.  The sponsorship was for the project, not the 
software, at least as I read the Kickstarter history.

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[mike]

On 29 mai 2012, at 23:56, Lucas Gonze wrote:

> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Nils  wrote:
>> AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of 
>> interest and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere 
>> on the musescore twitter account or something like this).
>> It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each 
>> Lilypond release.
> 
> Musecore and Lilypond are both open source. A GUI would benefit
> Lilypond. There's no reason for a Lilypond person to not work on .ly
> export from the Musecore front end.
> 
> I feel like this conversation is unnecessarily competitive. These
> projects have a *lot* in common. I am rooting for both.

I know I'm rehashing old ground, but I think that these projects stand to 
mutually benefit from each other if and only if they evolve in "natural" 
directions given their goals.

MuseScore reminds me of Finale and Sibelius and it seems like it should do this 
as best as possible.

LilyPond needs to be an excellent typesetter (like SCORE).  It needs to be for 
people who put layout above all else.  In general, the idea of LilyPond is to 
build a master engraver - a virtual person who, using various directives, 
creates a score following hundreds of years of engraving knowledge.  Like any 
master engraver, this involves trial and error and testing out multiple 
possibilities, which is exactly what LilyPond does - for any slur you see in a 
score, LilyPond is testing between 50 and 100 slurs to see which one fits best. 
 These tests take time and, if they were done for every change in a WYSIWYG 
score (because every change in a score has the potential to effect every 
element of a score) it would slow the score down immensely.

LilyPond 2.18 (yes, 2.18, not 2.16) will contain various changes in lyrics and 
skylines that build even more engraver knowledge into LilyPond, which will slow 
it down by about 1-5 seconds for a 60 second score.  These scores will look 
less airy in many cases.  These types of features are the ones that I think 
will improve LilyPond's typesetting most.

So, with respect to your comment above, I too am rooting for both programs.  I 
think what they have in common is that they both produce scores.  However, I'd 
encourage everyone to help both programs distinguish themselves through their 
differences.  The nightmare scenario, in my opinion, is that the two programs, 
competing over a user-base somewhere in the middle, converge.  To paraphrase 
what Bill Clinton said of Washington DC, it'd be like "A combination of 
northern hospitality and southern efficiency."

Cheers,
MS
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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Ben Luo]

Totally agree Wasil. A beautiful sheet, the syntax is only very small part.
Lilypond make other default setting great. We just focus on music and
syntax. These are the key of music.

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Wasil Sergejczyk wrote:

>
>> There is a chance, but only when the syntax is *obvious* enough.
>> Currently used syntax isn't obvious enough, but it won't be difficult
>> to change it, i think.
>>
>> for me, as a beginner, notes syntax wasn't the difficult part (then
> again, i'm used to write programming code), but page layout, staffs,
> voices, etc. so, i ended up by composing a set of templates for my needs
> and forgetting about that stuff. so, an online collection of such templates
> would smooth a learning curve alot, imho.
>
> --
> Best regards.
>
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>
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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Wasil Sergejczyk]

>
>
> There is a chance, but only when the syntax is *obvious* enough.
> Currently used syntax isn't obvious enough, but it won't be difficult
> to change it, i think.
>
> for me, as a beginner, notes syntax wasn't the difficult part (then again,
i'm used to write programming code), but page layout, staffs, voices, etc.
so, i ended up by composing a set of templates for my needs and forgetting
about that stuff. so, an online collection of such templates would smooth a
learning curve alot, imho.

-- 
Best regards.
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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Colin Campbell]

On 12-05-29 10:36 PM, David Kastrup wrote:


MuseScore is not a GUI for LilyPond, like LilyPond is not a frontend for
PostScript.  If it were a GUI for LilyPond, you could send a LilyPond
file to a MuseScore guy, and he would make some amendments with
MuseScore and send you back the changed LilyPond file.

There's no reason for a PostScript person to not work on .ps export from
the LilyPond front end, but that does not mean that when he tweaks some
noteheads, you can reimport those tweaks into into the original LilyPond
source.




For interest's sake: there was a discussion on slashdot today: 
http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/12/05/29/0015231/open-source-bach-project-completed-score-and-recording-now-online


Colin

--
I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt on both 
hands.
You need to be able to throw something back.
-Maya Angelou, poet (1928- )


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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[David Kastrup]

Lucas Gonze  writes:

> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Nils  wrote:
>> AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of
>> interest and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it
>> somewhere on the musescore twitter account or something like this).
>> It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with
>> each Lilypond release.
>
> Musecore and Lilypond are both open source. A GUI would benefit
> Lilypond. There's no reason for a Lilypond person to not work on .ly
> export from the Musecore front end.

MuseScore is not a GUI for LilyPond, like LilyPond is not a frontend for
PostScript.  If it were a GUI for LilyPond, you could send a LilyPond
file to a MuseScore guy, and he would make some amendments with
MuseScore and send you back the changed LilyPond file.

There's no reason for a PostScript person to not work on .ps export from
the LilyPond front end, but that does not mean that when he tweaks some
noteheads, you can reimport those tweaks into into the original LilyPond
source.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Nick Payne]

On 29/05/12 20:44, David Kastrup wrote:

Jan Nieuwenhuizen  writes:



How to turn enthousiasm into LilyPond, if people are unaware of it's
existence.  Long before we go SponsorshipMeister, I would suggest a
PRMeister.

I don't think that people are unaware of its existence.  Mutopia has
more than 1500 pieces by now.  Those did not exactly fall from some
tree.


Speaking of which, Mutopia seems to be pretty much moribund. I sent a 
score to their contributions e-mail address a couple of months ago, 
which was never acknowledged and hasn't appeared on the web site. Nor 
did I get a response to a mail pointing out a couple of errors in scores 
already on the web site, and nothing has appeared there since early 
February.


Nick

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Hans Aikema]

On 29-5-2012 23:16, Nils wrote:

On Tue, 29 May 2012 10:15:31 +0200
Marc Weber  wrote:


Musecore fails to render some specific cases when printing - but
exporting to lilypond seems to work in all (little) cases I tried.

Thus for simple cases I like that combination: musescore for typing and
lilypond for rendering.

AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of interest 
and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere on the 
musescore twitter account or something like this).
It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each 
Lilypond release.

Nils

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.


Nils,

Isn't it the 'dropped lilypond import', which apparently has been 
dropped the second time recently?


http://musescore.org/en/node/14273

AFAIK they intend to keep .ly export, but refuse to do .ly import unless 
new developers want to pick up the task of fixing and maintaining the 
importer code as import would need to be able to handle the various 
changes in the lilypond source format gracefully.
The export is easier to maintain as they just write the \version in the 
.ly file and leave it up to the user to run convert-ly and modify 
anything that convert-ly can't handle itself when using a more recent 
version of Lilypond.


regards,
Hans

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Lucas Gonze]

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Nils  wrote:
> AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of interest 
> and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere on the 
> musescore twitter account or something like this).
> It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each 
> Lilypond release.

Musecore and Lilypond are both open source. A GUI would benefit
Lilypond. There's no reason for a Lilypond person to not work on .ly
export from the Musecore front end.

I feel like this conversation is unnecessarily competitive. These
projects have a *lot* in common. I am rooting for both.

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Nils]

On Tue, 29 May 2012 10:15:31 +0200
Marc Weber  wrote:

> Musecore fails to render some specific cases when printing - but
> exporting to lilypond seems to work in all (little) cases I tried.
> 
> Thus for simple cases I like that combination: musescore for typing and
> lilypond for rendering.

AFAIK musescore dropped Lilypond export support because of a lack of interest 
and in favour of musicXML (whatever that means, I read it somewhere on the 
musescore twitter account or something like this).
It may still work, but we can expect it to break a little more with each 
Lilypond release.

Nils

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Marc Weber]

Excerpts from Jan Nieuwenhuizen's message of Tue May 29 09:56:14 +0200 2012:
> Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this
> sponsoring project?  What are we missing?

Just talking about my personal experience ..

I personally can only say that I've tried teaching lilypond to a
friendly woman and my mother - I failed both times (due to complexity).
It was too much for them to remember syntax and some templates for
repetitions and such.

Both were able to write scores with muscore. Of course they are no
professional type setters.

Musecore fails to render some specific cases when printing - but
exporting to lilypond seems to work in all (little) cases I tried.

Thus for simple cases I like that combination: musescore for typing and
lilypond for rendering.

Sponsorings are not always easy to understand :(

Marc Weber

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Re: musescore lands sponsoring?

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:56 AM, Jan Nieuwenhuizen  wrote:
>
> Just to make sure you have seen
>
>    
> http://www.opengoldbergvariations.org/b-sendorfer-sponsors-open-goldberg-project-providing-concert-grand-ceus-recording-technology-0
>
> Wouldn't LilyPond have been a technically superior choice for this
> sponsoring project?

Yes, certainly.

> What are we missing?

Werner is a crack coder, just look at
https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore to see how he cranked this out
in just 3 days.

kidding aside, I think a GUI appeals to more people, both developers,
users and passers-by (I notice some people that used to be active on
the LilyPond list on their site). What I don't get is that they chose
a Bach work as a demo. While interesting from a typesetting
perspective, the primary value of MuseScore is not copying existing
work, but being able to edit new works.

I wonder how much tweaks they needed to get the output they are showing.

Also, their sponsorship was for a recorded version of the work, ie.
for sound. More people are interested in sound rather than printed
matter.

-- 
Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

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