Re: point-and-click default
On Sat 01 Jan 2022 at 22:27:31 (+0100), Valentin Petzel wrote: > May I just fan the fire by saying that on kde this works out of the box? > > That being said, the only really usable pnc implementation is Frescobaldi, as > that one will keep track while you’re editing the file and thus always point > to > the right thing. Interesting. How precise is the forward indication (ie in the score display), and how does it point to it. Do you know what mechanism it's using to keep track? The way reverse indications work is relatively straightforward (except for how LP inserts the textedits), but I've never slogged through the paper that describes SyncTeX, nor installed Okular, which is one viewer that's supposed to be able to perform forward indications, but comprises 134 extra packages in Debian. > And I don’t see much of a problem with disabling pnc by default, but it would > not change much as most people would probably activate it somewhere and still > forget to deactivate it for sharing. Of course, many other document formats can also leak information unless you work around the problem, by sanitising the documents, naming their source locations carefully, logging in anonymously, or whatever's most straightforward. Cheers, David.
Re: point-and-click default
For the records, I've added an issue on Frescobaldi tracker: https://github.com/frescobaldi/frescobaldi/issues/1412
Re: point-and-click default
May I just fan the fire by saying that on kde this works out of the box? That being said, the only really usable pnc implementation is Frescobaldi, as that one will keep track while you’re editing the file and thus always point to the right thing. And I don’t see much of a problem with disabling pnc by default, but it would not change much as most people would probably activate it somewhere and still forget to deactivate it for sharing. Cheers, Valentin Am Donnerstag, 30. Dezember 2021, 18:22:42 CET schrieb David Zelinsky: > David Zelinsky writes: > > Tom Sgouros writes: > >> For those of us just catching up, can someone explain how to see the > >> metadata? I guess this is more of a PDF question, but while I have some > >> experts' attention... > >> > >> Thank you, > >> > >> -Tom > > > > I can only tell you about evince, the pdf reader I use. But I expect it > > should be the same in most pdf readers. > > > > If you hover the mouse pointer over a notehead, it displays the URI that > > > > will be looked up when you click there. It will look like this: > > textedit > > > > where is the absolute path to the lilypond source > > file, and and are the starting and ending > > positions of the text defining the note in question. > > > > -David > > Sorry, I meant to say also that is the line number in the source > file where the note definition appears. > > In evince on my Ubuntu system, clicking on the note elicits an error, > because evince does not know what to do with a "textedit:..." link. > Section 4.1 of the Usage Manual (under 4. External Programs) explains > how to make it work. > > -David signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: point-and-click default
On 30/12/2021 17:22, David Zelinsky wrote: In evince on my Ubuntu system, clicking on the note elicits an error, because evince does not know what to do with a "textedit:..." link. Section 4.1 of the Usage Manual (under 4. External Programs) explains how to make it work. Nor does my Windows setup ... When it works, it's useful, but it's certainly not a novice hack if it doesn't work out-of-the-box. (Yes I know it's bog-standard nix, but my original background was minicomputers, and it still feels alien to me.) Cheers, Wol
Re: point-and-click default
Lukas-Fabian Moser writes: > Hi David, >> I've been using Lilypond for a few years, and only yesterday learned >> about the point-and-click feature in pdf output. In particular, I had >> no idea that by default Lilypond includes absolute pathnames to local >> source files on my system as metadata in the pdf output files. So when >> I uploaded a couple of files to IMSLP recently, that metadata was >> available for all to see. > > The Notation Reference states > (https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/usage/configuring-the-system-for-point-and-click): > > "Point and click functionality is enabled by default when creating PDF > or SVG files." > > "Note: You should always turn off point and click in any LilyPond > files to be distributed to avoid including path information about your > computer in the PDF file, which can pose a security risk." > > I agree that these statements make for a gloomy combination by today's > standards of increased awareness for computer security issues. > > Wouldn't it be more reasonable to switch point-and-click off by > default? My personal idea would be to use relative links anyway, but that might possibly not work with the kind of "URL helper" setup that typically ends up calling lilypond-invoke-editor . -- David Kastrup
Re: point-and-click default
Hi David, I've been using Lilypond for a few years, and only yesterday learned about the point-and-click feature in pdf output. In particular, I had no idea that by default Lilypond includes absolute pathnames to local source files on my system as metadata in the pdf output files. So when I uploaded a couple of files to IMSLP recently, that metadata was available for all to see. The Notation Reference states (https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.23/Documentation/usage/configuring-the-system-for-point-and-click): "Point and click functionality is enabled by default when creating PDF or SVG files." "Note: You should always turn off point and click in any LilyPond files to be distributed to avoid including path information about your computer in the PDF file, which can pose a security risk." I agree that these statements make for a gloomy combination by today's standards of increased awareness for computer security issues. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to switch point-and-click off by default? My argument would be that in Frescobaldi, it's trivial to accommodate such a change, and non-Frescobaldi users who are able to set up a point-and-click-ready system of their own should also be perfectly able to make point-and-click the default on their system if they want to. Even more so since there's \pointAndClickOn, making it trivial to enable the feature for individual files without having to mess with command line parameters. Lukas
Re: point-and-click default
David Zelinsky writes: > Tom Sgouros writes: > >> For those of us just catching up, can someone explain how to see the >> metadata? I guess this is more of a PDF question, but while I have some >> experts' attention... >> >> Thank you, >> >> -Tom > > I can only tell you about evince, the pdf reader I use. But I expect it > should be the same in most pdf readers. > > If you hover the mouse pointer over a notehead, it displays the URI that > will be looked up when you click there. It will look like this: > > textedit > > where is the absolute path to the lilypond source > file, and and are the starting and ending > positions of the text defining the note in question. > > -David Sorry, I meant to say also that is the line number in the source file where the note definition appears. In evince on my Ubuntu system, clicking on the note elicits an error, because evince does not know what to do with a "textedit:..." link. Section 4.1 of the Usage Manual (under 4. External Programs) explains how to make it work. -David
Re: point-and-click default
Tom Sgouros writes: > For those of us just catching up, can someone explain how to see the > metadata? I guess this is more of a PDF question, but while I have some > experts' attention... > > Thank you, > > -Tom I can only tell you about evince, the pdf reader I use. But I expect it should be the same in most pdf readers. If you hover the mouse pointer over a notehead, it displays the URI that will be looked up when you click there. It will look like this: textedit where is the absolute path to the lilypond source file, and and are the starting and ending positions of the text defining the note in question. -David
Re: point-and-click default
Knute Snortum writes: > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 7:13 PM David Zelinsky wrote: > [...] >> But even if it is configured to work, it seems like a REALLY BAD IDEA to >> have this feature enabled *by default*. Or, if it is to be the default, >> it ought to be mentioned VERY PROMINENTLY, so anyone installing and >> using Lilypond will see it. As far as I could tell, it is not even >> mentioned in the Learning Manual. >> >> The reference manual does admonish users to disable the feature when >> producing pdf output for public distribution. But that warning is >> totally useless if a user does not happen to read that (rather obsure) >> section of the manual. > > My vote would be to leave the point-and-click as the default and put a > mention of how to publish a PDF in the Learning Manual, with any > necessary warnings. In Frescobaldi, I use this feature all the time > and there is an easy way to publish PDFs without point-and-click. I > didn't know about the absolute path names in the metadata, but that > makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, keeping it the default but including documentation in the Learning Manual sounds like a reasonable solution. But there should also be instructions for setting it up, or a pointer to the part of the Reference Manual that discusses it. Although apparently point-and-click works out of the box in Frescobaldi, not everyone uses Frescobaldi, and it requires some setup to work with other pdf readers (e.g. evince), at least in my vanilla Ubuntu distribution. This is all extensively documented in the Reference Manual, but not in a place anyone is likely to see it unless they know to search for point-and-click. -David
Re: point-and-click default
For those of us just catching up, can someone explain how to see the metadata? I guess this is more of a PDF question, but while I have some experts' attention... Thank you, -Tom On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 10:25 AM Knute Snortum wrote: > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 7:13 PM David Zelinsky > wrote: > [...] > > But even if it is configured to work, it seems like a REALLY BAD IDEA to > > have this feature enabled *by default*. Or, if it is to be the default, > > it ought to be mentioned VERY PROMINENTLY, so anyone installing and > > using Lilypond will see it. As far as I could tell, it is not even > > mentioned in the Learning Manual. > > > > The reference manual does admonish users to disable the feature when > > producing pdf output for public distribution. But that warning is > > totally useless if a user does not happen to read that (rather obsure) > > section of the manual. > > My vote would be to leave the point-and-click as the default and put a > mention of how to publish a PDF in the Learning Manual, with any > necessary warnings. In Frescobaldi, I use this feature all the time > and there is an easy way to publish PDFs without point-and-click. I > didn't know about the absolute path names in the metadata, but that > makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out. > > > -- > Knute Snortum > >
Re: point-and-click default
On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 7:13 PM David Zelinsky wrote: [...] > But even if it is configured to work, it seems like a REALLY BAD IDEA to > have this feature enabled *by default*. Or, if it is to be the default, > it ought to be mentioned VERY PROMINENTLY, so anyone installing and > using Lilypond will see it. As far as I could tell, it is not even > mentioned in the Learning Manual. > > The reference manual does admonish users to disable the feature when > producing pdf output for public distribution. But that warning is > totally useless if a user does not happen to read that (rather obsure) > section of the manual. My vote would be to leave the point-and-click as the default and put a mention of how to publish a PDF in the Learning Manual, with any necessary warnings. In Frescobaldi, I use this feature all the time and there is an easy way to publish PDFs without point-and-click. I didn't know about the absolute path names in the metadata, but that makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out. -- Knute Snortum
Re: point-and-click default
> > > This point-and-click seems like a useful feature for editing, *if* it's > configured to work on your system. But it apparently is not usually set > up that way by default, at least on most Linux systems. (I do > appreciate the instructions in the manual for configuring it, and plan > to do that.) > I think pretty much everyone uses point-and-click. The most popular editor (Frescobaldi) is available on Linux (I use it) - often packaged for you by the distro, so I think you are not correct about how it is typically used there. If you were in the dark about this until now I think you are an outlier. Working with LilyPond is much harder without it. Re the greater point about whether it should be on by default: I personally like it as is and wouldn't want to have to enable it each time or make new users do it. And I think that is more important than the potential downside of someone not knowing to use publish (or forgetting), and then making a pdf available that reveals their system username. But that is only my opinion, and I understand your view. Kevin
point-and-click default
I'm about to rant about an existing Lilyond default. Really I want to suggest a change for the developers, but I'm not sure where or how to do that. So I'll start with this rant, and I'll be happy to take any more productive steps if someone can suggest what they should be. Or, if this issue has been previosly debated, I'd be interested to have a link to that discussion. Here goes... I've been using Lilypond for a few years, and only yesterday learned about the point-and-click feature in pdf output. In particular, I had no idea that by default Lilypond includes absolute pathnames to local source files on my system as metadata in the pdf output files. So when I uploaded a couple of files to IMSLP recently, that metadata was available for all to see. Having learned (from my son!) about this feature, I have now found it in the manual, and I now know how to disable it. And I have replaced the publicly available files with new ones that do not have the metadata--and are also half the size! This point-and-click seems like a useful feature for editing, *if* it's configured to work on your system. But it apparently is not usually set up that way by default, at least on most Linux systems. (I do appreciate the instructions in the manual for configuring it, and plan to do that.) But even if it is configured to work, it seems like a REALLY BAD IDEA to have this feature enabled *by default*. Or, if it is to be the default, it ought to be mentioned VERY PROMINENTLY, so anyone installing and using Lilypond will see it. As far as I could tell, it is not even mentioned in the Learning Manual. The reference manual does admonish users to disable the feature when producing pdf output for public distribution. But that warning is totally useless if a user does not happen to read that (rather obsure) section of the manual. -- David Zelinsky
