Re: score transposition problem
Am 13.04.2011 06:15, schrieb Tom Cloyd:
I have a simple problem which I've never before faced, and I'm hoping
there exists a simple solution about which someone can tell me.
I play and write music for classic guitar, so I use \clef treble_8
in my scores (classic guitar sounds an octave lower than the music
notation).
I want to arrange a Bach chorale for guitar. My score for the chorale
is a nightmare. I can barely read bass clef, and can do that in my
mind, but the scores for soprano, alto, and tenor all use C-clefs, and
in a way that each score must be read in a unique way. I've never
before seen a score like this. The notes fit nicely on the staff, but
I cannot read them without a lot of mental gymnastics.
Is there a way simply to input the notes to a lilypond file as if they
were in my normal G-clef, such that, for example, the F-clef for the
bass part, where the note is placed on the top line of the staff (an
A), I would record it as an F, then magically move the notes up or
down enough semi-tones to get to a correct placement on the treble_8
clef, at which point I add key signature to my *.ly file and I'm ready
to begin my transposition, using the PDF output to play from...?
Well, you describe how to proceed: just input the notes as if they were
written on G clef.
Your f is actually written f'' and should sound like an a, so just add
\transpose f'' a { \myMusic }
and it should work out of the box. The same holds for the C clefs, of
course.
Regards,
Marc
This is what I'd do mentally, if that were all I COULD do, but it
hurts my brain to think about doing this for all the parts, using
C-clefs which are placed wherever it was convenient to place them by
the composer (I wonder if Bach did this, or was it someone else...?).
The more I think about this the more I think there must be a way to do
it, and only using Lilypond, but I don't know what it might be.
I look forward to the response of this forum, which I have to say is
without doubt the most helpful of the many to which I belong.
t.
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: score transposition problem
Hi,
2011/4/13 Marc Hohl m...@hohlart.de:
Am 13.04.2011 06:15, schrieb Tom Cloyd:
I have a simple problem which I've never before faced, and I'm hoping
there exists a simple solution about which someone can tell me.
I play and write music for classic guitar, so I use \clef treble_8 in
my scores (classic guitar sounds an octave lower than the music notation).
I want to arrange a Bach chorale for guitar. My score for the chorale is a
nightmare. I can barely read bass clef, and can do that in my mind, but the
scores for soprano, alto, and tenor all use C-clefs, and in a way that each
score must be read in a unique way. I've never before seen a score like
this. The notes fit nicely on the staff, but I cannot read them without a
lot of mental gymnastics.
Is there a way simply to input the notes to a lilypond file as if they
were in my normal G-clef, such that, for example, the F-clef for the bass
part, where the note is placed on the top line of the staff (an A), I would
record it as an F, then magically move the notes up or down enough
semi-tones to get to a correct placement on the treble_8 clef, at which
point I add key signature to my *.ly file and I'm ready to begin my
transposition, using the PDF output to play from...?
Well, you describe how to proceed: just input the notes as if they were
written on G clef.
Your f is actually written f'' and should sound like an a, so just add
\transpose f'' a { \myMusic }
and it should work out of the box. The same holds for the C clefs, of
course.
Actually, it doesn't. It's because \transpose is chromatic, and the
staff itself isn't. Compile the following:
realMusic = { a b c' d' e' f' g' a' }
\staff { \clef bass \realMusic }
writtenDownAsIfItWasInTrebleClef = { f'' g'' a'' b'' c''' d''' e''' f''' }
\staff { \clef G s1*0^this should print a minor scale, but it
doesn't \transpose f'' a \writtenDownAsIfItWasInTrebleClef }
Interestingly,
\staff { \clef G^13\writtenDownAsIfItWasInTrebleClef }
outputs something like you want. However, even if one would hide the
13 above clef, it is structurally wrong (it only displays notes
correctly, their internal pitches are f'' g'' a'' b'' c''' d''' e'''
f''') and will produce wrong midi and cues.
Nevertheless, it must be possible to modify the function which handles
this special clef to convert notes properly.
Perhaps diatonic transposition would do - there was some discussion
about it and if i remember correctly a working prototype exists.
Search mailing archives.
Hope this helps,
Janek
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: score transposition problem
On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 22:15:54 -0600 Tom Cloyd t...@tomcloyd.com wrote: I want to arrange a Bach chorale for guitar. My score for the chorale is a nightmare. I can barely read bass clef, and can do that in my mind, but the scores for soprano, alto, and tenor all use C-clefs, and in a way that each score must be read in a unique way. I've never before seen a score like this. The notes fit nicely on the staff, but I cannot read them without a lot of mental gymnastics. Have you looked around for another score? I have all 371+ in grand staff notation and if I'm not mistaken, there is a (large) PDF here: http://superbonus.project.free.fr/IMG/pdf/Bach-371-Chorals.pdf David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: score transposition problem
Am 13.04.2011 09:56, schrieb Janek Warchoł:
Hi,
2011/4/13 Marc Hohlm...@hohlart.de:
Am 13.04.2011 06:15, schrieb Tom Cloyd:
I have a simple problem which I've never before faced, and I'm hoping
there exists a simple solution about which someone can tell me.
I play and write music for classic guitar, so I use \clef treble_8 in
my scores (classic guitar sounds an octave lower than the music notation).
I want to arrange a Bach chorale for guitar. My score for the chorale is a
nightmare. I can barely read bass clef, and can do that in my mind, but the
scores for soprano, alto, and tenor all use C-clefs, and in a way that each
score must be read in a unique way. I've never before seen a score like
this. The notes fit nicely on the staff, but I cannot read them without a
lot of mental gymnastics.
Is there a way simply to input the notes to a lilypond file as if they
were in my normal G-clef, such that, for example, the F-clef for the bass
part, where the note is placed on the top line of the staff (an A), I would
record it as an F, then magically move the notes up or down enough
semi-tones to get to a correct placement on the treble_8 clef, at which
point I add key signature to my *.ly file and I'm ready to begin my
transposition, using the PDF output to play from...?
Well, you describe how to proceed: just input the notes as if they were
written on G clef.
Your f is actually written f'' and should sound like an a, so just add
\transpose f'' a { \myMusic }
and it should work out of the box. The same holds for the C clefs, of
course.
Actually, it doesn't. It's because \transpose is chromatic, and the
staff itself isn't. Compile the following:
Ah, I see :-(
Well, it looked so simple ...
realMusic = { a b c' d' e' f' g' a' }
\staff { \clef bass \realMusic }
writtenDownAsIfItWasInTrebleClef = { f'' g'' a'' b'' c''' d''' e''' f''' }
\staff { \clef G s1*0^this should print a minor scale, but it
doesn't \transpose f'' a \writtenDownAsIfItWasInTrebleClef }
Interestingly,
\staff { \clef G^13\writtenDownAsIfItWasInTrebleClef }
outputs something like you want. However, even if one would hide the
13 above clef, it is structurally wrong (it only displays notes
correctly, their internal pitches are f'' g'' a'' b'' c''' d''' e'''
f''') and will produce wrong midi and cues.
Nevertheless, it must be possible to modify the function which handles
this special clef to convert notes properly.
Perhaps diatonic transposition would do - there was some discussion
about it and if i remember correctly a working prototype exists.
Search mailing archives.
Here are some starting points:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2008-12/msg00805.html
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2008-12/msg00815.html
Marc
Hope this helps,
Janek
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: score transposition problem
Marc Hohl m...@hohlart.de writes:
Am 13.04.2011 09:56, schrieb Janek Warchoł:
Hi,
2011/4/13 Marc Hohlm...@hohlart.de:
Am 13.04.2011 06:15, schrieb Tom Cloyd:
I want to arrange a Bach chorale for guitar. My score for the
chorale is a nightmare. I can barely read bass clef, and can do
that in my mind, but the scores for soprano, alto, and tenor all
use C-clefs, and in a way that each score must be read in a unique
way. I've never before seen a score like this. The notes fit nicely
on the staff, but I cannot read them without a lot of mental
gymnastics.
Well, you describe how to proceed: just input the notes as if they were
written on G clef.
Your f is actually written f'' and should sound like an a, so just add
\transpose f'' a { \myMusic }
and it should work out of the box. The same holds for the C clefs, of
course.
Actually, it doesn't. It's because \transpose is chromatic, and the
staff itself isn't. Compile the following:
Ah, I see :-(
Well, it looked so simple ...
It usually is. You need to change the key appropriately as well to have
the half steps occur in the right places. This works for in-key notes;
accidentals need to be reinterpreted accordingly to have the same amount
of sharpening or flattening as the original.
As an example: say you have a score written in alto clef in g\major
which you want to move to treble_8.
The base note of g\major looks like being an f, so you change your clef
in hand-writing to treble_8, and the key from one sharp to one flat.
Any accidentals in the score that change meaning due to this key change
have to be reinterpreted accordingly.
Now you are ready to play the score (transposed by one note), or to type
it in, and submit it to \transpose f g.
--
David Kastrup
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: score transposition problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/13/2011 00:15 AM, Tom Cloyd wrote: I want to arrange a Bach chorale for guitar. My score for the chorale is a nightmare. I can barely read bass clef, and can do that in my mind, but the scores for soprano, alto, and tenor all use C-clefs, and in a way that each score must be read in a unique way. I've never before seen a score like this. The notes fit nicely on the staff, but I cannot read them without a lot of mental gymnastics. I’m afraid there’s not much for it except to learn to read them (these are probably tenor and alto clefs). As others have pointed out, a simple transposition is going to produce weird effects. And speaking as a trombone player who had to learn tenor clef to play orchestral stuff, you actually do get used to it fairly quickly. If it’s giving you trouble, use a paper copy with the line-notes penciled in (e.g., D F A C E for tenor clef) at the start of the line. I find that I mostly think in relative terms when reading tenor; e.g., the first note is a C, then there’s a third so it’s an E, etc. You could also try using some math as you go along: in the tenor clef, every note is one “notch” high relative to the treble clef, so a note on the 4th line should be moved down one to the 3rd space, which is a treble C. (You’ll be an octave off, but that is a much easier problem to solve.) For the alto clef, move the note up a notch for the treble note value. HTH, crism - -- Chris Maden, text nerd URL: http://crism.maden.org/ “Those in power write the history, while those who suffer write the songs.” — Frank Harte GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2lq3AACgkQGfhmdwB3wxkusgCfTf+s1w/Yl7xLJmxsPAvGb5yy HFAAniP/1T//Sd63gKdV6SOJoKdsNe/T =pVLZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: score transposition problem
You can use Denemo for this. Choose the clefs the original has, insert the notes just as if they were dots on lines and in the end change the clef to what you want. Nils On 04/13/2011 00:15 AM, Tom Cloyd wrote: I want to arrange a Bach chorale for guitar. My score for the chorale is a nightmare. I can barely read bass clef, and can do that in my mind, but the scores for soprano, alto, and tenor all use C-clefs, and in a way that each score must be read in a unique way. I've never before seen a score like this. The notes fit nicely on the staff, but I cannot read them without a lot of mental gymnastics. I’m afraid there’s not much for it except to learn to read them (these are probably tenor and alto clefs). As others have pointed out, a simple transposition is going to produce weird effects. And speaking as a trombone player who had to learn tenor clef to play orchestral stuff, you actually do get used to it fairly quickly. If it’s giving you trouble, use a paper copy with the line-notes penciled in (e.g., D F A C E for tenor clef) at the start of the line. I find that I mostly think in relative terms when reading tenor; e.g., the first note is a C, then there’s a third so it’s an E, etc. You could also try using some math as you go along: in the tenor clef, every note is one “notch” high relative to the treble clef, so a note on the 4th line should be moved down one to the 3rd space, which is a treble C. (You’ll be an octave off, but that is a much easier problem to solve.) For the alto clef, move the note up a notch for the treble note value. HTH, crism - -- Chris Maden, text nerd URL: http://crism.maden.org/ “Those in power write the history, while those who suffer write the songs.” — Frank Harte GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2lq3AACgkQGfhmdwB3wxkusgCfTf+s1w/Yl7xLJmxsPAvGb5yy HFAAniP/1T//Sd63gKdV6SOJoKdsNe/T =pVLZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: score transposition problem
Wow, as usual I'm totally delighted with the range and richness of responses to my query. Many things to try and to investigate. Not all of them will take me to my goal as easily as I'd like, but all sound worth following up on. I've very grateful to you all. Thank you very much. I was afraid there was an easy answer which further study of Lilypond would reveal, and that my question would therefore be annoying (as in why doesn't he just read the bloody documentation?!). Actually I did, for quite a while last night, and was equal parts fascinated and befuddled, even though I've engrave close to 30 original compositions with Lilypond. As it turns out, this transposition problem's not all that easy, and there are multiple ways to approach the problem. Wonderful. I expect that after a little more study and experimentation, I'll never again be as challenged by transposition as I am at this moment. As for Denemo, I've been wanting for a while to check in to this, although I'm not about to abandon text Lilypond scripting, which I've grown to love as a kind of special magic! But for this problem, the solution you suggest sound really great. I'll jump to it this evening! Tom On 04/13/2011 09:00 AM, Nils Hammerfest wrote: You can use Denemo for this. Choose the clefs the original has, insert the notes just as if they were dots on lines and in the end change the clef to what you want. Nils On 04/13/2011 00:15 AM, Tom Cloyd wrote: I want to arrange a Bach chorale for guitar. My score for the chorale is a nightmare. I can barely read bass clef, and can do that in my mind, but the scores for soprano, alto, and tenor all use C-clefs, and in a way that each score must be read in a unique way. I've never before seen a score like this. The notes fit nicely on the staff, but I cannot read them without a lot of mental gymnastics. I’m afraid there’s not much for it except to learn to read them (these are probably tenor and alto clefs). As others have pointed out, a simple transposition is going to produce weird effects. And speaking as a trombone player who had to learn tenor clef to play orchestral stuff, you actually do get used to it fairly quickly. If it’s giving you trouble, use a paper copy with the line-notes penciled in (e.g., D F A C E for tenor clef) at the start of the line. I find that I mostly think in relative terms when reading tenor; e.g., the first note is a C, then there’s a third so it’s an E, etc. You could also try using some math as you go along: in the tenor clef, every note is one “notch” high relative to the treble clef, so a note on the 4th line should be moved down one to the 3rd space, which is a treble C. (You’ll be an octave off, but that is a much easier problem to solve.) For the alto clef, move the note up a notch for the treble note value. HTH, crism - -- Chris Maden, text nerdURL: http://crism.maden.org/ “Those in power write the history, while those who suffer write the songs.” — Frank Harte GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2lq3AACgkQGfhmdwB3wxkusgCfTf+s1w/Yl7xLJmxsPAvGb5yy HFAAniP/1T//Sd63gKdV6SOJoKdsNe/T =pVLZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- ~ It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. ~ Epictetus (c.55-c.135) ~ Tom Cloyd, MS MA Private practice Psychotherapist St. George, Utah, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332 t...@tomcloyd.com (email) TomCloyd.com (website) sleightmind.wordpress.com (mental health issues weblog) ~ ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
score transposition problem
I have a simple problem which I've never before faced, and I'm hoping there exists a simple solution about which someone can tell me. I play and write music for classic guitar, so I use \clef treble_8 in my scores (classic guitar sounds an octave lower than the music notation). I want to arrange a Bach chorale for guitar. My score for the chorale is a nightmare. I can barely read bass clef, and can do that in my mind, but the scores for soprano, alto, and tenor all use C-clefs, and in a way that each score must be read in a unique way. I've never before seen a score like this. The notes fit nicely on the staff, but I cannot read them without a lot of mental gymnastics. Is there a way simply to input the notes to a lilypond file as if they were in my normal G-clef, such that, for example, the F-clef for the bass part, where the note is placed on the top line of the staff (an A), I would record it as an F, then magically move the notes up or down enough semi-tones to get to a correct placement on the treble_8 clef, at which point I add key signature to my *.ly file and I'm ready to begin my transposition, using the PDF output to play from...? This is what I'd do mentally, if that were all I COULD do, but it hurts my brain to think about doing this for all the parts, using C-clefs which are placed wherever it was convenient to place them by the composer (I wonder if Bach did this, or was it someone else...?). The more I think about this the more I think there must be a way to do it, and only using Lilypond, but I don't know what it might be. I look forward to the response of this forum, which I have to say is without doubt the most helpful of the many to which I belong. t. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
