Re: [LincolnTalk] Community Center as part of the mall

[Margaret Olson]

The town can not dictate a specific tenant to a property owner through any
process. The town can approach a property owner with an appealing offer.
All discussions to date of the proposed mall zoning will permit a use such
as a community center, and I will be very surprised if they do not continue
to do so.

[Note: I am not making any statement about where the community center does
or does not belong, only clarifying what is and is not theoretically
possible]

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 3:03 PM Peter Buchthal  wrote:

> I respectfully disagree.  I don't believe the Planning Board can specify
> the tenants and the terms for a future community center at the Lincoln
> Mall  as the Mall under Options C and D1-D3 will be developed by right and
> won't require a Town Meeting for a building permit.  I am not an attorney,
> but using google, I did not find any examples of a Town being able to
> pre-reserve space in a development built by right for the Town's use.  If
> you want the possibility of a community center at the Lincoln Mall, choose
> Option E.
>
> Peter Buchthal
> Weston Rd.
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 2:53 PM Margaret Olson 
> wrote:
>
>> The likelihood or not of the community center at the mall is irrelevant
>> to which option is chosen. It is equally likely or unlikely with C as with
>> E, or with any of the D options.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 2:38 PM Karla Gravis 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Why would including the Community Center as part of the mall be a
>>> "project killer"? We could sign a 10/20/30 year lease. Wouldn't a developer
>>> jump at the chance to have a stable tenant instead of having to deal with
>>> constant retail turnover? Or is this comment an indictment of the viability
>>> of any commercial space at the Mall area?
>>>
>>> According to the town's economic feasibility study, a developer could
>>> consider charging ~$3 per sqft in monthly rent. For a 10,000 sqft CC, that
>>> would mean $360K in yearly rent. Compare that to the town's yearly debt
>>> service payment of $0.77M - $1.54M for the proposed CC designs.  The
>>> savings come from the fact that public buildings are much more costly to
>>> build than what private developments cost.
>>>
>>> In relation to the argument that the CC cannot be in the mall area
>>> because of LEAP, there is no need to have LEAP move to the mall. Remodeling
>>> Pod C (where LEAP is currently hosted) has been estimated at $3.5M. The
>>> non-LEAP portion of the community center designs being put to vote will be
>>> costing the town $12.5M - $21.5M. If the annual cost of the community
>>> center is $360k instead of $1M+, there will surely be some left to renovate
>>> LEAP.
>>>
>>> To be clear, this is not Civico's plan for the mall. If Option C is
>>> chosen, this synergistic combination will likely not happen. However, with
>>> Option E, this could very much be part of the project presented to the
>>> Town. We could tap TCB (The Community Builders - pun intended) to build a
>>> community center and truly affordable housing.
>>>
>>>
>>>

 On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 12:47 Paul Shorb  wrote:

> The CCBC has an FAQ linked here
> 
>  that explains
> why the community center should be located at Hartwell campus (as the Town
> has voted to approve multiple times) rather than at the Mall.
>
> Putting a community center at the Town center would be much more
> expensive, if it could be accomplished at all. As I noted in another
> post just now, shared spaces are efficient, since (A) seniors tend to
> use the facilities in the day and (B) school children do so in the later
> afternoon, walking from the school buildings to participate in Lincoln's
> Parks & Rec programs or LEAP.  Building a separate community center
> at the town center would still leave the town with the need to renovate 
> the
> spaces that would remain at Hartwell; I have heard the estimate of about
> $3.5 million for each of three pods at Hartwell.
>
> Also, I'm not sure how a community center at the Town center could
> actually be achieved. The Town center does not have sufficient
> available Town-owned space to build a community center. You therefore
> suggested including the Community Center as a required accessory use
> in the development of a future residential project at Lincoln Station.
> However, despite the rosy theory provided by your urban planning contact, 
> that
> sounds like a project-killer to me.
>
> Dealing with climate change is a big motivator for me. That pushes me
> in the direction of Option C, much more than getting a community center
> somehow forced into a future development of the Mall. If I'm right that 
> "required
> accessory use" would be a project-killer, then we would thus not only
> fail to get a community center built there, but als

Re: [LincolnTalk] Community Center as part of the mall

[Peter Buchthal]

I respectfully disagree.  I don't believe the Planning Board can specify
the tenants and the terms for a future community center at the Lincoln
Mall  as the Mall under Options C and D1-D3 will be developed by right and
won't require a Town Meeting for a building permit.  I am not an attorney,
but using google, I did not find any examples of a Town being able to
pre-reserve space in a development built by right for the Town's use.  If
you want the possibility of a community center at the Lincoln Mall, choose
Option E.

Peter Buchthal
Weston Rd.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 2:53 PM Margaret Olson  wrote:

> The likelihood or not of the community center at the mall is irrelevant to
> which option is chosen. It is equally likely or unlikely with C as with E,
> or with any of the D options.
>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 2:38 PM Karla Gravis  wrote:
>
>> Why would including the Community Center as part of the mall be a
>> "project killer"? We could sign a 10/20/30 year lease. Wouldn't a developer
>> jump at the chance to have a stable tenant instead of having to deal with
>> constant retail turnover? Or is this comment an indictment of the viability
>> of any commercial space at the Mall area?
>>
>> According to the town's economic feasibility study, a developer could
>> consider charging ~$3 per sqft in monthly rent. For a 10,000 sqft CC, that
>> would mean $360K in yearly rent. Compare that to the town's yearly debt
>> service payment of $0.77M - $1.54M for the proposed CC designs.  The
>> savings come from the fact that public buildings are much more costly to
>> build than what private developments cost.
>>
>> In relation to the argument that the CC cannot be in the mall area
>> because of LEAP, there is no need to have LEAP move to the mall. Remodeling
>> Pod C (where LEAP is currently hosted) has been estimated at $3.5M. The
>> non-LEAP portion of the community center designs being put to vote will be
>> costing the town $12.5M - $21.5M. If the annual cost of the community
>> center is $360k instead of $1M+, there will surely be some left to renovate
>> LEAP.
>>
>> To be clear, this is not Civico's plan for the mall. If Option C is
>> chosen, this synergistic combination will likely not happen. However, with
>> Option E, this could very much be part of the project presented to the
>> Town. We could tap TCB (The Community Builders - pun intended) to build a
>> community center and truly affordable housing.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 12:47 Paul Shorb  wrote:
>>>
 The CCBC has an FAQ linked here
 
  that explains
 why the community center should be located at Hartwell campus (as the Town
 has voted to approve multiple times) rather than at the Mall.

 Putting a community center at the Town center would be much more
 expensive, if it could be accomplished at all. As I noted in another
 post just now, shared spaces are efficient, since (A) seniors tend to
 use the facilities in the day and (B) school children do so in the later
 afternoon, walking from the school buildings to participate in Lincoln's
 Parks & Rec programs or LEAP.  Building a separate community center at
 the town center would still leave the town with the need to renovate the
 spaces that would remain at Hartwell; I have heard the estimate of about
 $3.5 million for each of three pods at Hartwell.

 Also, I'm not sure how a community center at the Town center could
 actually be achieved. The Town center does not have sufficient
 available Town-owned space to build a community center. You therefore
 suggested including the Community Center as a required accessory use
 in the development of a future residential project at Lincoln Station.
 However, despite the rosy theory provided by your urban planning contact, 
 that
 sounds like a project-killer to me.

 Dealing with climate change is a big motivator for me. That pushes me
 in the direction of Option C, much more than getting a community center
 somehow forced into a future development of the Mall. If I'm right that 
 "required
 accessory use" would be a project-killer, then we would thus not only
 fail to get a community center built there, but also fail to get the
 Mall redeveloped with higher-density near the rail stop and shopping,
 which would be the biggest potential climate win here.

 Paul Shorb
 (a member of the RLF Board but expressing my personal views here)

 On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 7:54 AM Ken Hurd  wrote:

> Hello LincolnTalkers,
> With apologies for expressing yet again my strongly held opinion as an
> architect concerned with what we build in Lincoln, I want to remind
> everyone why I and many others believe we should not build a community
> center on the school campus.  I still believe it should 

Re: [LincolnTalk] Community Center as part of the mall

[Paul Shorb]

You are right, I don't know that it would be a project killer. That was
just my non-expert guess. If the town were willing to pay a high enough
rent for community-center space at a redeveloped Mall, I guess that could
work economically from the developer's point of view.

That would still leave the question of whether that is the kind of
community center that we want to have. Space at the Mall is limited, and
everyone seems to agree about wanting to keep as much commercial space
active there as shoppers will support. So my guess (again, non-expert) is
that a community center squeezed into what would otherwise be ground-floor
commercial space at the Mall would be small and dreary, compared to what
has been sketched out for the roomier, greener Hartwell campus (in
addition to losing the cost efficiencies and social benefits from creating
a multi-programmatic multi-generational space, previously discussed).

In any event, the above questions seem relevant only to what one wants to
vote for in 2024, when a final community center plan is put before Town
Meeting, not to the voting tomorrow. Margaret Olson has pointed out in this
thread that where you think the community center should be should be
irrelevant to which HCA option you cote for, since ending up with a
community center in the town center "is equally likely or unlikely with C
as with E, or with any of the D options". I haven't got my own head fully
wrapped around why that is so -- getting dizzy from trying to follow LT
today --  but I trust her to know!

Paul Shorb
(RLF Board member but sharing my personal views here)

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 2:38 PM Karla Gravis  wrote:

> Why would including the Community Center as part of the mall be a "project
> killer"? We could sign a 10/20/30 year lease. Wouldn't a developer jump at
> the chance to have a stable tenant instead of having to deal with constant
> retail turnover? Or is this comment an indictment of the viability of any
> commercial space at the Mall area?
>
> According to the town's economic feasibility study, a developer could
> consider charging ~$3 per sqft in monthly rent. For a 10,000 sqft CC, that
> would mean $360K in yearly rent. Compare that to the town's yearly debt
> service payment of $0.77M - $1.54M for the proposed CC designs.  The
> savings come from the fact that public buildings are much more costly to
> build than what private developments cost.
>
> In relation to the argument that the CC cannot be in the mall area because
> of LEAP, there is no need to have LEAP move to the mall. Remodeling Pod C
> (where LEAP is currently hosted) has been estimated at $3.5M. The non-LEAP
> portion of the community center designs being put to vote will be costing
> the town $12.5M - $21.5M. If the annual cost of the community center is
> $360k instead of $1M+, there will surely be some left to renovate LEAP.
>
> To be clear, this is not Civico's plan for the mall. If Option C is
> chosen, this synergistic combination will likely not happen. However, with
> Option E, this could very much be part of the project presented to the
> Town. We could tap TCB (The Community Builders - pun intended) to build a
> community center and truly affordable housing.
>
>
>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 12:47 Paul Shorb  wrote:
>>
>>> The CCBC has an FAQ linked here
>>> 
>>>  that explains
>>> why the community center should be located at Hartwell campus (as the Town
>>> has voted to approve multiple times) rather than at the Mall.
>>>
>>> Putting a community center at the Town center would be much more
>>> expensive, if it could be accomplished at all. As I noted in another
>>> post just now, shared spaces are efficient, since (A) seniors tend to
>>> use the facilities in the day and (B) school children do so in the later
>>> afternoon, walking from the school buildings to participate in Lincoln's
>>> Parks & Rec programs or LEAP.  Building a separate community center at
>>> the town center would still leave the town with the need to renovate the
>>> spaces that would remain at Hartwell; I have heard the estimate of about
>>> $3.5 million for each of three pods at Hartwell.
>>>
>>> Also, I'm not sure how a community center at the Town center could
>>> actually be achieved. The Town center does not have sufficient
>>> available Town-owned space to build a community center. You therefore
>>> suggested including the Community Center as a required accessory use in
>>> the development of a future residential project at Lincoln Station.
>>> However, despite the rosy theory provided by your urban planning contact, 
>>> that
>>> sounds like a project-killer to me.
>>>
>>> Dealing with climate change is a big motivator for me. That pushes me in
>>> the direction of Option C, much more than getting a community center
>>> somehow forced into a future development of the Mall. If I'm right that 
>>> "required
>>> accessory use

Re: [LincolnTalk] Community Center as part of the mall

[Margaret Olson]

The likelihood or not of the community center at the mall is irrelevant to
which option is chosen. It is equally likely or unlikely with C as with E,
or with any of the D options.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 2:38 PM Karla Gravis  wrote:

> Why would including the Community Center as part of the mall be a "project
> killer"? We could sign a 10/20/30 year lease. Wouldn't a developer jump at
> the chance to have a stable tenant instead of having to deal with constant
> retail turnover? Or is this comment an indictment of the viability of any
> commercial space at the Mall area?
>
> According to the town's economic feasibility study, a developer could
> consider charging ~$3 per sqft in monthly rent. For a 10,000 sqft CC, that
> would mean $360K in yearly rent. Compare that to the town's yearly debt
> service payment of $0.77M - $1.54M for the proposed CC designs.  The
> savings come from the fact that public buildings are much more costly to
> build than what private developments cost.
>
> In relation to the argument that the CC cannot be in the mall area because
> of LEAP, there is no need to have LEAP move to the mall. Remodeling Pod C
> (where LEAP is currently hosted) has been estimated at $3.5M. The non-LEAP
> portion of the community center designs being put to vote will be costing
> the town $12.5M - $21.5M. If the annual cost of the community center is
> $360k instead of $1M+, there will surely be some left to renovate LEAP.
>
> To be clear, this is not Civico's plan for the mall. If Option C is
> chosen, this synergistic combination will likely not happen. However, with
> Option E, this could very much be part of the project presented to the
> Town. We could tap TCB (The Community Builders - pun intended) to build a
> community center and truly affordable housing.
>
>
>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 12:47 Paul Shorb  wrote:
>>
>>> The CCBC has an FAQ linked here
>>> 
>>>  that explains
>>> why the community center should be located at Hartwell campus (as the Town
>>> has voted to approve multiple times) rather than at the Mall.
>>>
>>> Putting a community center at the Town center would be much more
>>> expensive, if it could be accomplished at all. As I noted in another
>>> post just now, shared spaces are efficient, since (A) seniors tend to
>>> use the facilities in the day and (B) school children do so in the later
>>> afternoon, walking from the school buildings to participate in Lincoln's
>>> Parks & Rec programs or LEAP.  Building a separate community center at
>>> the town center would still leave the town with the need to renovate the
>>> spaces that would remain at Hartwell; I have heard the estimate of about
>>> $3.5 million for each of three pods at Hartwell.
>>>
>>> Also, I'm not sure how a community center at the Town center could
>>> actually be achieved. The Town center does not have sufficient
>>> available Town-owned space to build a community center. You therefore
>>> suggested including the Community Center as a required accessory use in
>>> the development of a future residential project at Lincoln Station.
>>> However, despite the rosy theory provided by your urban planning contact, 
>>> that
>>> sounds like a project-killer to me.
>>>
>>> Dealing with climate change is a big motivator for me. That pushes me in
>>> the direction of Option C, much more than getting a community center
>>> somehow forced into a future development of the Mall. If I'm right that 
>>> "required
>>> accessory use" would be a project-killer, then we would thus not only
>>> fail to get a community center built there, but also fail to get the
>>> Mall redeveloped with higher-density near the rail stop and shopping,
>>> which would be the biggest potential climate win here.
>>>
>>> Paul Shorb
>>> (a member of the RLF Board but expressing my personal views here)
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 7:54 AM Ken Hurd  wrote:
>>>
 Hello LincolnTalkers,
 With apologies for expressing yet again my strongly held opinion as an
 architect concerned with what we build in Lincoln, I want to remind
 everyone why I and many others believe we should not build a community
 center on the school campus.  I still believe it should be located in
 Lincoln Station, particularly now that our small commercial area is in play
 because of the Housing Choice Act.

 As I wrote last year, "I fully support building a new facility, but it
 has long been my opinion that such a major investment by the town should be
 deployed where it is most needed - namely in the Lincoln Station area.  For
 more than ten years since Town Meeting approved the Comprehensive Long
 Range Plan, in which the revitalization of Lincoln Station was
 overwhelmingly one of the highest priorities, the area has lain dormant and
 in serious need of a catalyst to jumpstart its transformation into the
 compact, v

Re: [LincolnTalk] Community Center as part of the mall

[Karla Gravis]

Why would including the Community Center as part of the mall be a "project
killer"? We could sign a 10/20/30 year lease. Wouldn't a developer jump at
the chance to have a stable tenant instead of having to deal with constant
retail turnover? Or is this comment an indictment of the viability of any
commercial space at the Mall area?

According to the town's economic feasibility study, a developer could
consider charging ~$3 per sqft in monthly rent. For a 10,000 sqft CC, that
would mean $360K in yearly rent. Compare that to the town's yearly debt
service payment of $0.77M - $1.54M for the proposed CC designs.  The
savings come from the fact that public buildings are much more costly to
build than what private developments cost.

In relation to the argument that the CC cannot be in the mall area because
of LEAP, there is no need to have LEAP move to the mall. Remodeling Pod C
(where LEAP is currently hosted) has been estimated at $3.5M. The non-LEAP
portion of the community center designs being put to vote will be costing
the town $12.5M - $21.5M. If the annual cost of the community center is
$360k instead of $1M+, there will surely be some left to renovate LEAP.

To be clear, this is not Civico's plan for the mall. If Option C is chosen,
this synergistic combination will likely not happen. However, with Option
E, this could very much be part of the project presented to the Town. We
could tap TCB (The Community Builders - pun intended) to build a community
center and truly affordable housing.



>
> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 12:47 Paul Shorb  wrote:
>
>> The CCBC has an FAQ linked here
>> 
>>  that explains
>> why the community center should be located at Hartwell campus (as the Town
>> has voted to approve multiple times) rather than at the Mall.
>>
>> Putting a community center at the Town center would be much more
>> expensive, if it could be accomplished at all. As I noted in another
>> post just now, shared spaces are efficient, since (A) seniors tend to
>> use the facilities in the day and (B) school children do so in the later
>> afternoon, walking from the school buildings to participate in Lincoln's
>> Parks & Rec programs or LEAP.  Building a separate community center at
>> the town center would still leave the town with the need to renovate the
>> spaces that would remain at Hartwell; I have heard the estimate of about
>> $3.5 million for each of three pods at Hartwell.
>>
>> Also, I'm not sure how a community center at the Town center could
>> actually be achieved. The Town center does not have sufficient available
>> Town-owned space to build a community center. You therefore suggested 
>> including the
>> Community Center as a required accessory use in the development of a future
>> residential project at Lincoln Station. However, despite the rosy theory
>> provided by your urban planning contact, that sounds like a
>> project-killer to me.
>>
>> Dealing with climate change is a big motivator for me. That pushes me in
>> the direction of Option C, much more than getting a community center
>> somehow forced into a future development of the Mall. If I'm right that 
>> "required
>> accessory use" would be a project-killer, then we would thus not only
>> fail to get a community center built there, but also fail to get the
>> Mall redeveloped with higher-density near the rail stop and shopping,
>> which would be the biggest potential climate win here.
>>
>> Paul Shorb
>> (a member of the RLF Board but expressing my personal views here)
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 7:54 AM Ken Hurd  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello LincolnTalkers,
>>> With apologies for expressing yet again my strongly held opinion as an
>>> architect concerned with what we build in Lincoln, I want to remind
>>> everyone why I and many others believe we should not build a community
>>> center on the school campus.  I still believe it should be located in
>>> Lincoln Station, particularly now that our small commercial area is in play
>>> because of the Housing Choice Act.
>>>
>>> As I wrote last year, "I fully support building a new facility, but it
>>> has long been my opinion that such a major investment by the town should be
>>> deployed where it is most needed - namely in the Lincoln Station area.  For
>>> more than ten years since Town Meeting approved the Comprehensive Long
>>> Range Plan, in which the revitalization of Lincoln Station was
>>> overwhelmingly one of the highest priorities, the area has lain dormant and
>>> in serious need of a catalyst to jumpstart its transformation into the
>>> compact, vital, walkable village center that was a stated goal at the
>>> time.  A community center in such a location would be the equivalent of an
>>> anchor store in a retail setting, and by virtue of attracting more people
>>> on a regular basis, it would create more opportunities for a clustered
>>> cross-current of activities spawning greater s