Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 14:20 -0400, Alan Altmark wrote: > On Wednesday, 09/27/2006 at 12:48 AST, "Morris, Kevin J. (LNG-DAY)" > > Is there a way to let zVM know that this is a password field similar to > > when you are logging on to zVM or using the VM-FTP Client? > > Yes, the function is there in the underlying z/VM device support (3215 > opcode 0x0E), but the con3215 driver in Linux doesn't appear to issue it. > I imagine there would have to be termios (?) and ioctl() changes to the > driver of some sort to support some type of NOECHO specification. I tried to use opcode 0x0e to do password suppression in the 3215 driver but found out the hard way that it doesn't work. To suppress the output on a 3215 device you need to have a pending 0x0e read. The read will sit there until the user pressed the attention key. If in the meantime the console has to print a new message, the read needs to be stopped, followed by the write for the message and then the read needs to be started again. Consider my surprise when I found that a halt-subchannel on the 3215 device did not work .. it is not implemented in the 3215 emulation. -- blue skies, Martin. Martin Schwidefsky Linux for zSeries Development & Services IBM Deutschland Entwicklung GmbH "Reality continues to ruin my life." - Calvin. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Given the available options I would vote for allowing no-password logons to Linux via the console. Because: - Recording passwords is bad policy. Anyone who sees a console or console listing can then use the discovered passwords elsewhere. - Depending on keyboard mapping and special characters used (# ^ [ ]), logon to Linux becomes difficult or impossible via the 3215. - Access to the console can (should!) be restricted by regular VM security or ESM, the only possible problem being that some sites require >8 character upper-lower case passwords for their UNIX-type systems. Ray Mrohs U.S. Department of Justice 202-307-6896 > 1) For Linux on Z, there is no legitimate reason to be using > the console > for anything but emergencies that have broken network access to the > guest. ssh with keyrings and sudo are for normal maintenance and > operations access. If the server is so horked that you need > the console, > you DEFINITELY don't want J Random Luser messing with it. In that > scenario, the people who will be working at the console > already HAVE the > root password or an equivalent security token and can do as > much damage > as they like. You aren't improving the security of things any by > requiring the extra login at the console. > > 2) You have a authentication method as strong as the Unix > login already > in place (the VM userid login), assuming that you have decent password > policies in place already for the VM side (and if not, why not?). > > 3) You can audit the living heck out of the VM login with an ESM, and > even without one, CP does some fairly decent logging that's really, > REALLY hard to circumvent. > > 4) LOGONBY can be selective -- no need to give them access to > *everything*. > > I guess I'm more confident in the VM side of the world and the audit > capabilities there. I think I'd be able to make the case to an hostile > auditor. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> - Access to the console can (should!) be restricted by regular VM > security or ESM, the only possible problem being that some sites require > >8 character upper-lower case passwords for their UNIX-type systems. It'd be interesting to know how many of these sites apply similar requirements to terminal servers attached to serial consoles. One could make a fairly strong argument that that's exactly the role that VM plays in this scenario. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On 9/28/06, David Boyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It'd be interesting to know how many of these sites apply similar requirements to terminal servers attached to serial consoles. One could make a fairly strong argument that that's exactly the role that VM plays in this scenario. It takes a wicked mind to come up with the right analogy (i trust both of us in that). I think Alan came up with the "virtual raised floor" so being able to logon a virtual server is like grant people accces to the floor. Some installations can use simple rules for that. But very often the rule is at least that you only go there when you have something that needs to be done there. I have also heard about colocation centers that have locked server racks and video camera's on the floor. You can have that as well with VM. The personal userid & RACF password allows access to the floor, and logonby is like the key to each rack, with RACF and the operator logging to audit it all. Much the same, but more flexible and easier to do. Rob -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Thursday, 09/28/2006 at 11:09 ZE2, Martin Schwidefsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I tried to use opcode 0x0e to do password suppression in the 3215 driver > but found out the hard way that it doesn't work. To suppress the output > on a 3215 device you need to have a pending 0x0e read. The read will sit > there until the user pressed the attention key. If in the meantime the > console has to print a new message, the read needs to be stopped, > followed by the write for the message and then the read needs to be > started again. Consider my surprise when I found that a halt-subchannel > on the 3215 device did not work .. it is not implemented in the 3215 > emulation. Oh, yeah! Now I remember! I double-checked the 3215 CCWs in the old S/370 Model 135 book and opcode 0x0E is something CP made up explicitly to suppress the display of the password. There's no particular reason its use couldn't be decoupled from "prompt". But I also remember now that the halt-subchannel mechanisms used by Linux could create "windows" where the typed password could become visible or be ignored. I am, of course, in the camp that says don't prompt for the root password. In the vast majority of shops, whoever logs onto the virtual console and kill or corrupt Linux in any way they wish. And when you compare this against having the formerly-secret root password appear in a console log, the decision is simple (IMO). If I had a discrete server in a password protected room (one per room, please), would I bother with another password? What if a sign on the wall above the server said, "A visual record of everything you do will be made and stored where other people can get it."? Sometimes people don't apply the same protections to archived logs as they do to the servers those logs come from. If someone needs to logon to a Linux console it is because the network is broken and they need to run a repair script or they haven't Seen The Light Go into the Light..go.. :-) Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Thursday, 09/28/2006 at 09:27 AST, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - Depending on keyboard mapping and special characters used (# ^ [ ]), > logon to Linux becomes difficult or impossible via the 3215. In new deployments, I would recommend (courtesy of discussion on IBM-MAIN): TERM LINEND ESC OFF CHARDEL OFF LINEDEL OFF TABCHAR OFF That old Field Mark works great and isn't something guests are interested in. You just have to figure out which key on your keyboard produces it! (After 30 years of pressing #, the transition for us Old Dogs is challenging to say the least.) For all EBCDIC stuff, Linux assumes you are code page 37 (Grr!), including ^ and square brackets. IMO Linux should extract the code page information from the virtual console and translate accordingly. (sigh... I'm a cp924 guy myself...) Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Thu, 2006-09-28 at 10:44 -0400, Alan Altmark wrote: > On Thursday, 09/28/2006 at 09:27 AST, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > For all EBCDIC stuff, Linux assumes you are code page 37 (Grr!), > including ^ and square brackets. IMO Linux should extract the code page > information from the virtual console and translate accordingly. (sigh... > I'm a cp924 guy myself...) Care to come up with a patch? -- blue skies, Martin. Martin Schwidefsky Linux for zSeries Development & Services IBM Deutschland Entwicklung GmbH "Reality continues to ruin my life." - Calvin. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
David Boyes wrote: > I'm not sure there's anything they *can* do. The guest doesn't see the > input until the attention key gets pressed, so that it really doesn't > get control in any useful way. > > You might be able to do something with a 3270 console, but that's > probably unlikely to be useful in a VM environment (spare us VINPUT, > please!). > > It would be a lot easier to configure (and probably more useful to have) > a root shell to always be running on the console without a Unix login > required. Since you already have a authorization method in place (the VM > userid login) that does password suppression correctly, that would be > the "right" thing to do -- after all, if you have the VM userid > password, you can already do all the harm that a root user can do, and > you have secure logging of the fact that the login occurred. You know, linux can use serial ports as a console device... So why hasn't IBM come up with a virtual serial port type of console system to use instead? Something like having the console on /dev/ttyS0, and that via some z/VM magic, is available on an IP as a port number. Telnet to the port, and Linux's getty takes it from there. Or better yet, through some z/VM magic, the serial ports could be mapped to another Linux host's serial ports, say one set up as a console appliance... Then that appliance could be configured to allow access to them in a variety of ways, whether it be by port numbers, account names, ssh key, whatever. I've been imagining this for a long time now, and just wondered why IBM never did it. *Brandon Darbro -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> You know, linux can use serial ports as a console device... So why > hasn't IBM come up with a virtual serial port type of console system to > use instead? Something like having the console on /dev/ttyS0, and that > via some z/VM magic, is available on an IP as a port number. Telnet to > the port, and Linux's getty takes it from there. Or better yet, through > some z/VM magic, the serial ports could be mapped to another Linux > host's serial ports, say one set up as a console appliance... Then that > appliance could be configured to allow access to them in a variety of > ways, whether it be by port numbers, account names, ssh key, whatever. Just thinking out loud, but: You could construct something like this using PVM fairly trivially, assuming you were willing to tolerate a 3270 console on the Linuxen (and that the 3270 console driver in Linux tolerates DIALed terminals coming and going at the appropriate addresses in the virtual machine) and that PVM was easily available on IFLs. PVM is astonishingly powerful for doing stuff like this, and Endicott has fixed the licensing problem on IFLs due to PVM being necessary for CSE. The PVM link signon protocol is remarkably simple, and could easily be supported on Linux with a little work. You could probably also simulate this using YVETTE without spending any money -- connect to VM, DIAL YVETTE, then DIAL to the guests as appropriate. I'll have to try this out later. Wrt to your idea of a console server appliance, that could be done fairly easily if you run telnetd on a nonstandard well-known port, and then configure /etc/ttys to allow root logins on that set of ptys. Cisco has a nice way of mapping serial links to hostnames in IOS that might be a interesting model. The console appliance would need some type of relatively secure solicitor as a login shell... hmm. I think this is possible to do. How badly do you want it? 8-) > I've been imagining this for a long time now, and just wondered why IBM > never did it. I think this is how the Integrated ASCII Console thing is supposed to work. It doesn't scale all that well, and with the line-mode support in the VM TELNET server, it's really not all that necessary -- you can already get a TTY console connection to use to get the network up, and then you can get directly to the system in question w/o getting the VM system involved at all. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
David Boyes wrote: You know, linux can use serial ports as a console device... So why hasn't IBM come up with a virtual serial port type of console system to use instead? Something like having the console on /dev/ttyS0, and that via some z/VM magic, is available on an IP as a port number. Telnet to the port, and Linux's getty takes it from there. Or better yet, through some z/VM magic, the serial ports could be mapped to another Linux host's serial ports, say one set up as a console appliance... Then that appliance could be configured to allow access to them in a variety of ways, whether it be by port numbers, account names, ssh key, whatever. Just thinking out loud, but: You could construct something like this using PVM fairly trivially, assuming you were willing to tolerate a 3270 console on the Linuxen (and that the 3270 console driver in Linux tolerates DIALed terminals coming and going at the appropriate addresses in the virtual machine) and that PVM was easily available on IFLs. PVM is astonishingly powerful for doing stuff like this, and Endicott has fixed the licensing problem on IFLs due to PVM being necessary for CSE. The PVM link signon protocol is remarkably simple, and could easily be supported on Linux with a little work. You could probably also simulate this using YVETTE without spending any money -- connect to VM, DIAL YVETTE, then DIAL to the guests as appropriate. I'll have to try this out later. Wrt to your idea of a console server appliance, that could be done fairly easily if you run telnetd on a nonstandard well-known port, and then configure /etc/ttys to allow root logins on that set of ptys. Cisco has a nice way of mapping serial links to hostnames in IOS that might be a interesting model. The console appliance would need some type of relatively secure solicitor as a login shell... hmm. I think this is possible to do. How badly do you want it? 8-) I've been imagining this for a long time now, and just wondered why IBM never did it. I think this is how the Integrated ASCII Console thing is supposed to work. It doesn't scale all that well, and with the line-mode support in the VM TELNET server, it's really not all that necessary -- you can already get a TTY console connection to use to get the network up, and then you can get directly to the system in question w/o getting the VM system involved at all. No, the entire point is to not have to tolerate 3270 at all, to also not have a line mode in telnet. The entire point is to have a virtual console device that is *completely* usable. Have it good for vi, screen (terminal multiplexer), control codes, TUI's, heck, even zmodem uploads if we wanted to (*shudder*). As I was saying for the virtual console appliance, there could be many configurable items. Simple way would be to have folks telnet to a port and be dropped right into the associated serial console device. Better way would be to do that with SSH... not sure you could do ports for that though. Could use ssh keys, and have the appliance side with a shell script determine which key was used, then send you to a particular serial console based on that. Or any other number of ways. The main thing is to get one linux appliance to be attached somehow via virtual serial connections to all the other Linux guests, and have those guests configured to use serial console. If I had to put up with any 3270 limitations or telnet line mode, there's no point in even pursuing it, as it would be no better than what we have now... a broken console. *Brandon -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On 9/28/06, Brandon Darbro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No, the entire point is to not have to tolerate 3270 at all, to also not have a line mode in telnet. The entire point is to have a virtual console device that is *completely* usable. Have it good for vi, screen (terminal multiplexer), control codes, TUI's, heck, even zmodem uploads if we wanted to (*shudder*). But why not use another running Linux server on the same z/VM image with all the goodies you want or need, and link to the disks of the dead machine to fix the problem? That allows you to use the network to get data (if you even need to, because most packages may already be on this server). Having a central virtual KVM requires all kind of security controls to make it scale. You don't just want any Linux console to be available to everyone who may sometimes need to have access. Because obviously the virtual KVM will also manage the virtual BIOS (CP commands, directory, etc) and allow for reboot, shutdown, you name what. Rob -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Sep 28, 2006, at 9:42 AM, Brandon Darbro wrote: The main thing is to get one linux appliance to be attached somehow via virtual serial connections to all the other Linux guests, and have those guests configured to use serial console. I seem to recall that quite a long time ago--maybe 5 years now--there was discussion of doing clustering/HA stuff with Linux guests that used vCTCs as serial devices. Maybe this could do what you want: Define one octopus guest, the console server, with dozens of CTC pairs, each coupled to one other guest, and for each connected guest, have that guest use the CTC serial device as its console. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Thursday, 09/28/2006 at 08:17 MST, Brandon Darbro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You know, linux can use serial ports as a console device... So why > hasn't IBM come up with a virtual serial port type of console system to > use instead? Something like having the console on /dev/ttyS0, and that > via some z/VM magic, is available on an IP as a port number. Telnet to > the port, and Linux's getty takes it from there. Or better yet, through > some z/VM magic, the serial ports could be mapped to another Linux > host's serial ports, say one set up as a console appliance... Then that > appliance could be configured to allow access to them in a variety of > ways, whether it be by port numbers, account names, ssh key, whatever. > > I've been imagining this for a long time now, and just wondered why IBM > never did it. IBM *has* been imagining this for a long time, too. The good thing is that the cold compresses have been effective and the migraines don't occur as often now as they used to The problem has to do with block 3270 vs. serial NVT mode. You would enter the system in line mode and switch to 3270 as usual to get a VM logo and logon, then, by some miracle TBD, switch back to line mode (emulators aren't so good at this, btw). And then there's the whole ASCII/EBCDIC/ASCII translation thing. You really want a "passthru mode" LDEV. Unless you're connecting to an EBCDIC guest, of course. [The light is hurting my eyes now...I have to go lay down.] Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Suse S390 help?
Does this list deal at all with SUSE on S390? I'm trying to install SUSE S390 over the Hercules S390 emulator and am having a problem. Paul -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Rob van der Heij wrote: On 9/28/06, Brandon Darbro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No, the entire point is to not have to tolerate 3270 at all, to also not have a line mode in telnet. The entire point is to have a virtual console device that is *completely* usable. Have it good for vi, screen (terminal multiplexer), control codes, TUI's, heck, even zmodem uploads if we wanted to (*shudder*). But why not use another running Linux server on the same z/VM image with all the goodies you want or need, and link to the disks of the dead machine to fix the problem? That allows you to use the network to get data (if you even need to, because most packages may already be on this server). Having a central virtual KVM requires all kind of security controls to make it scale. You don't just want any Linux console to be available to everyone who may sometimes need to have access. Because obviously the virtual KVM will also manage the virtual BIOS (CP commands, directory, etc) and allow for reboot, shutdown, you name what. Rob Some shops, like mine, have what I call "strategic division of labor". I can't grab another VM's disks. z/VM is handled by the mainframe group, and Linux is handled by my Unix group. And while I might get granted such access, that makes me the sole support person for tons of VM's, because we haven't been successful getting many Unix admins to train up on working in z/VM, and we get to do it so rarely, we forget much of our training. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Paul Dembry > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:28 PM > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Suse S390 help? > > > Does this list deal at all with SUSE on S390? I'm trying to > install SUSE > S390 over the Hercules S390 emulator and am having a problem. > Paul > Maybe. Can't hurt to ask so, ask away. I have successfully installed SLES-10-RC3 on Hercules/390 running on an AMD Athlon64 running SLES 10.1 at home. As my college Russian teacher used to say: "Easy! Easy!" (she was a native Russian trying to teach Texans, poor lady!) As an aside: Your email "reply to" is set to yourself. Sometimes this is not the proper setting for email lists. Your call. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Adam Thornton wrote: On Sep 28, 2006, at 9:42 AM, Brandon Darbro wrote: The main thing is to get one linux appliance to be attached somehow via virtual serial connections to all the other Linux guests, and have those guests configured to use serial console. I seem to recall that quite a long time ago--maybe 5 years now--there was discussion of doing clustering/HA stuff with Linux guests that used vCTCs as serial devices. Maybe this could do what you want: Define one octopus guest, the console server, with dozens of CTC pairs, each coupled to one other guest, and for each connected guest, have that guest use the CTC serial device as its console. Adam Now that sounds more like what I'm looking for! Basically virtual serial cables! Can you suggest where I might find the information to read up on this? I'll need to figure out all these kinds of details: *Linux CTC major/minor number info, and commonly used device name. *Limitations on how many virtual CTC's one Linux host can take (if any). *Line speed / pseudo baud rate, if applicable? *Would it use hardware flow control or need software flow control? If we could get 30-100 or more guests to use these CTC's as their console devices to one linux appliance, score! -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> I seem to recall that quite a long time ago--maybe 5 years now--there > was discussion of doing clustering/HA stuff with Linux guests that > used vCTCs as serial devices. Maybe this could do what you want: > Define one octopus guest, the console server, with dozens of CTC > pairs, each coupled to one other guest, and for each connected guest, > have that guest use the CTC serial device as its console. Better yet, make them PVM clients over the CTC, and map that PVM session as /dev/console. Then you get all the cool automation stuff and multisession support of PVM as well. David Boyes Sine Nomine Associates -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> Maybe. Can't hurt to ask so, ask away. I have successfully installed > SLES-10-RC3 on Hercules/390 running on an AMD Athlon64 running SLES 10.1 > at home. As my college Russian teacher used to say: "Easy! Easy!" (she > was a native Russian trying to teach Texans, poor lady!) Thanks. I get all the way to the install when it is partitioning the drives and it fails trying to write the disk label on /dev/dasda. Your Russian teacher was correct, it was "Easy! Easy!" right up to this point. The error message is Storage Modification Failed System Error -1007 Trying to write disk label msdos to /dev/dasda Not obvious why SUSE would want to write a disk label of "msdos" to /dev/dasda. Regards, Paul -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
David Boyes wrote: I seem to recall that quite a long time ago--maybe 5 years now--there was discussion of doing clustering/HA stuff with Linux guests that used vCTCs as serial devices. Maybe this could do what you want: Define one octopus guest, the console server, with dozens of CTC pairs, each coupled to one other guest, and for each connected guest, have that guest use the CTC serial device as its console. Better yet, make them PVM clients over the CTC, and map that PVM session as /dev/console. Then you get all the cool automation stuff and multisession support of PVM as well. David Boyes Sine Nomine Associates But doesn't that limit it to line mode again? If so, what the heck would be the point? -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
What version of SUSE is this, by the way? That might be helpful. Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Dembry Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:46 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Suse S390 help? > Maybe. Can't hurt to ask so, ask away. I have successfully installed > SLES-10-RC3 on Hercules/390 running on an AMD Athlon64 running SLES 10.1 > at home. As my college Russian teacher used to say: "Easy! Easy!" (she > was a native Russian trying to teach Texans, poor lady!) Thanks. I get all the way to the install when it is partitioning the drives and it fails trying to write the disk label on /dev/dasda. Your Russian teacher was correct, it was "Easy! Easy!" right up to this point. The error message is Storage Modification Failed System Error -1007 Trying to write disk label msdos to /dev/dasda Not obvious why SUSE would want to write a disk label of "msdos" to /dev/dasda. Regards, Paul -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> > I seem to recall that quite a long time ago--maybe 5 years now--there > was discussion of doing clustering/HA stuff with Linux guests that > used vCTCs as serial devices. Maybe this could do what you want: > Define one octopus guest, the console server, with dozens of CTC > pairs, each coupled to one other guest, and for each connected guest, > have that guest use the CTC serial device as its console. > > Adam > Would IUCV work for this? A lot easier to configure than vCTCs. Mark Wheeler, 3M Company -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Paul Dembry > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:46 PM > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: Suse S390 help? > > > > Maybe. Can't hurt to ask so, ask away. I have successfully installed > > SLES-10-RC3 on Hercules/390 running on an AMD Athlon64 > running SLES 10.1 > > at home. As my college Russian teacher used to say: "Easy! > Easy!" (she > > was a native Russian trying to teach Texans, poor lady!) > Thanks. I get all the way to the install when it is > partitioning the drives > and it fails trying to write the disk label on /dev/dasda. > Your Russian > teacher was correct, it was "Easy! Easy!" right up to this > point. The error > message is > > Storage Modification Failed > System Error -1007 > > Trying to write disk label msdos to /dev/dasda > > Not obvious why SUSE would want to write a disk label of "msdos" to > /dev/dasda. > Regards, > Paul The only question that comes to my mind is whether you told the installed to do a "dasdfmt" of the volume in question? The Hercules "dasdinit" is not sufficient (even though required) because it does not format the tracks into 4K records that z/Linux requires. Why "msdos" indeed? What filesystem type did you choose? I used ext3, not ResierFS. SUSE seems to be enamored of ResierFS for some reason. But I remember seeing messages here about it not being the best idea on the s390 version of z/Linux. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> No, the entire point is to not have to tolerate 3270 at all, to also not > have a line mode in telnet. The entire point is to have a virtual > console device that is *completely* usable. Have it good for vi, screen > (terminal multiplexer), control codes, TUI's, heck, even zmodem uploads > if we wanted to (*shudder*). You've got that already -- it's called a network PTY...8-). > If I had to put up with any 3270 limitations or telnet line mode, > there's no point in even pursuing it, as it would be no better than what > we have now... a broken console. Do you consider the line mode approach that most Unix servers have in their boot PROMs broken as well? That's the comparison you want, I think. I don't know of any Unix implementation that does fullscreen stuff in the boot PROMs. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Sep 28, 2006, at 10:56 AM, Mark Wheeler wrote: I seem to recall that quite a long time ago--maybe 5 years now--there was discussion of doing clustering/HA stuff with Linux guests that used vCTCs as serial devices. Maybe this could do what you want: Define one octopus guest, the console server, with dozens of CTC pairs, each coupled to one other guest, and for each connected guest, have that guest use the CTC serial device as its console. Adam Would IUCV work for this? A lot easier to configure than vCTCs. At the time, no... This was back in early 2.4 days. Now that we have a generic IUCV driver, maybe, although I don't know if you can make it look enough like a serial-discipline device to run a console session over. The nice thing about the CTCs was that somehow it got presented as /dev/ttySx, I think. I haven't yet gone searching for the Redbook, but I'm pretty sure it was one of the early z/Linux high-availability ones. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On 9/28/06, Brandon Darbro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Some shops, like mine, have what I call "strategic division of labor".
I can't grab another VM's disks. z/VM is handled by the mainframe
group, and Linux is handled by my Unix group. And while I might get
granted such access, that makes me the sole support person for tons of
VM's, because we haven't been successful getting many Unix admins to
train up on working in z/VM, and we get to do it so rarely, we forget
much of our training.
There's challenge to get the "strategic division" so that the work
gets done. I fully understand the battles to fight, and I just hope
that by discussing this we give you some ideas on what battles to try
to win in your shop. If you think something will not work for you, we
can help come up with alternatives. The only way you know for sure it
will not work is by not trying at all.
Many of us have shops where traditionally the network group were
aliens and had to be avoided. Getting an IP address for your Linux
virtual machines was extremely hard ("you already have an IP address
on the mainframe") and Alan's suggestion to call it a subnet was even
worse because "we manage routers and switches" boundaries of control.
It's not an all-or-nothing approach you have to use. You don't need a
userid that can access all disks, you just give every admin (or group
of admins) their own virtual server that can get at the disks they may
touch. With some standardization you can create an easy shell script
that will link the disks and mount them, and undo it again when you're
done. The good part in this is that it avoids discussions about
personal favorite tools that people like, because they don't need to
be installed on each machine anymore.
I noticed at the helpdesk that they often also do not bother to dig in
the Windows desktop of the user but stick the hard disk in their
docking station and run tools against it instead. It's much more
reliable.
Rob
--
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Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
David Boyes wrote: Do you consider the line mode approach that most Unix servers have in their boot PROMs broken as well? That's the comparison you want, I think. I don't know of any Unix implementation that does fullscreen stuff in the boot PROMs. No, line mode makes sense at the boot prom level... but when a Solaris box or HP box is booted into the OS, the console device becomes a fully interactive terminal. Very handy for when the box's network settings are wrong so you can't ssh into it. This allows you to login to the console and use editors such as vi or emacs. What your suggesting only adds the ability to issue control codes like a control-c, but not use interactive TUI's. It's not enough of a gain to warrant the trouble. Maybe you're just more use to 3270 than I am... I really despise it. :) Current experience: Oh, the networking info on that vm is wrong. Log into it's 3270 console... oh yeah, remember, don't type vi! Let's use ed or ex... okay, configuration fixed... let's see if I can ping out now. OH NO! I forgot to tell it only 1 ping! No control-c! *sigh* Well, *if* it's pinging, I should be able to ssh in and kill the ping process. If not... well, crap. Because of that, we have very few Unix admins who are authorized to use the 3270 console. Making sharing the workload with the rest of the admin group difficult. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> But doesn't that limit it to line mode again? If so, what the heck > would be the point? I guess I start with the assumption that the console of a Unix machine is something that does not ever get regular use -- it's a emergency device at best. I find that it's safer to start with that assumption for server instances. I don't allow console access to the non-zSeries boxes for casual use, either. As far as I'm concerned, the point of the console is to allow you to fix whatever it is that's preventing it from getting on the network, which can usually be accomplished with the same commands you'd do from a VDT-based console -- and those are all line mode commands anyway. Once you're on the net, login on a network PTY and do the editing, etc. As far as advantages of the consoles being PVM clients: 1) Never having to allow J Random Luser to log in to the VM userid to get to the "console" 2) PVM macros for common tasks. 3) Configuration and selection solicitor so operators don't need to remember details. 4) Console access does not depend on having a working network configuration in the guest. 5) Leverages existing Linux 3270 console support with minimal development 6) PVM cross-system support over multiple transports (IP and non-IP) 7) Direct integration into z/OS or VSE-based automation tools without development (most support PVM directly) 8) PVM implements the suppress-echo-response CCW correctly. 8-) 9) PVM already supports a transparent method of sending data (you can actually run SNA traffic over PVM links if you so choose; ugly, but it works). The same support could be drafted for your idea w/o totally rewriting the session muxing code in PVM from scratch. 10) Multiple session support with session switching hotkeys. 11) (my favorite) Because we can. 8-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
David Boyes wrote: But doesn't that limit it to line mode again? If so, what the heck would be the point? I guess I start with the assumption that the console of a Unix machine is something that does not ever get regular use -- it's a emergency device at best. I find that it's safer to start with that assumption for server instances. I don't allow console access to the non-zSeries boxes for casual use, either. As far as I'm concerned, the point of the console is to allow you to fix whatever it is that's preventing it from getting on the network, which can usually be accomplished with the same commands you'd do from a VDT-based console -- and those are all line mode commands anyway. Once you're on the net, login on a network PTY and do the editing, etc. As far as advantages of the consoles being PVM clients: 1) Never having to allow J Random Luser to log in to the VM userid to get to the "console" 2) PVM macros for common tasks. 3) Configuration and selection solicitor so operators don't need to remember details. 4) Console access does not depend on having a working network configuration in the guest. 5) Leverages existing Linux 3270 console support with minimal development 6) PVM cross-system support over multiple transports (IP and non-IP) 7) Direct integration into z/OS or VSE-based automation tools without development (most support PVM directly) 8) PVM implements the suppress-echo-response CCW correctly. 8-) 9) PVM already supports a transparent method of sending data (you can actually run SNA traffic over PVM links if you so choose; ugly, but it works). The same support could be drafted for your idea w/o totally rewriting the session muxing code in PVM from scratch. 10) Multiple session support with session switching hotkeys. 11) (my favorite) Because we can. 8-) And my Unix side of me recoils at what you've just described. Here's my point... The biggest barrier to my sharing support responsibility for z/Linux is the console. If the host doesn't ping, call this tiny list of admins, because none of us know (or want to know) how to use the console. They don't even want to reboot a box because they don't understand how to use the console, and they'd like to watch the console to see each boot step go properly. They won't work on the boxes for fear if they screw it up, they wouldn't know how to fix it via the console. So you get 5 admins who will work on them instead of 50+. I'm going to look into the virtual CTC idea. If I can make this work, I think it would be a great idea. Anything one can do to spread the workload around is great. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 12:59:09PM -0500, McKown, John wrote: > The only question that comes to my mind is whether you told the > installed to do a "dasdfmt" of the volume in question?The Hercules > "dasdinit" is not sufficient (even though required) because it does not > format the tracks into 4K records that z/Linux requires. However, if you give dasdinit the -linux option, it will do the necessary formatting. > SUSE seems to be enamored of ResierFS for some reason. But I remember > seeing messages here about it not being the best idea on the s390 > version of z/Linux. I don't know of anyone who recommends ReiserFS for general production use on any platform. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZChttp://www.conmicro.cx http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!) Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Jay Maynard > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:37 PM > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: Suse S390 help? > > > I don't know of anyone who recommends ReiserFS for general > production use on > any platform. > -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZChttp://www.conmicro.cx As to that, all I can say is that the SUSE installer that I used has ReiserFS as the "default" filesystem and I had to remember to change it to ext3. Thanks for the -linux switch. I am likely behind in my Hercules/390 stuff due to lack to time to "mess around" any more. Too busy at work and too ill at home (anemia can really put one off). -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Brandon Darbro > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:31 PM > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: zLinux User Passwords on console > > They won't work on the boxes for fear if they screw it up, > they wouldn't > know how to fix it via the console. So you get 5 admins who will work > on them instead of 50+. > > I'm going to look into the virtual CTC idea. If I can make > this work, I > think it would be a great idea. Anything one can do to spread the > workload around is great. I think what you would really like IBM to do is something akin to the HMC's "integrated ASCII console" in z/VM as well as just from the HMC. I wonder if there are enough z/Linux under z/VM customers to "pressure" IBM for this feature? z/VM already supports the integrated 3270 console (SYSG?) as well as the old forget-what-it's-called (SYSC). It is an "architected interface" after all. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
I recently installed Xandros Desktop 4 on my home PC, and it uses ReiserFS. (Okay, so maybe you can't call that 'Production' use.) -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Maynard Sent: September 28, 2006 14:37 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Suse S390 help? On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 12:59:09PM -0500, McKown, John wrote: > The only question that comes to my mind is whether you told the > installed to do a "dasdfmt" of the volume in question?The Hercules > "dasdinit" is not sufficient (even though required) because it does not > format the tracks into 4K records that z/Linux requires. However, if you give dasdinit the -linux option, it will do the necessary formatting. > SUSE seems to be enamored of ResierFS for some reason. But I remember > seeing messages here about it not being the best idea on the s390 > version of z/Linux. I don't know of anyone who recommends ReiserFS for general production use on any platform. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZChttp://www.conmicro.cx http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!) Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient or delegate is strictly prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. The integrity and security of this message cannot by guaranteed on the Internet. The Sender accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, or for the consequences of any actions taken on basis of the information provided. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The sender accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. This disclaimer is the property of the TTC and must not be altered or circumvented in any manner. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> The only question that comes to my mind is whether you told the > installed to do a "dasdfmt" of the volume in question? The Hercules > "dasdinit" is not sufficient (even though required) because it does not > format the tracks into 4K records that z/Linux requires. Why "msdos" > indeed? What filesystem type did you choose? I used ext3, not ResierFS. > SUSE seems to be enamored of ResierFS for some reason. But I remember > seeing messages here about it not being the best idea on the s390 > version of z/Linux. I used the -linux option on dasdinit but I think I did also use resierfs. I'm installing again using ext3 to see if that makes a difference. Paul -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help? ReiserFS
I have implemented production workloads with an early version of ReiserFs, we did some analysis that showed ext3 and Reiser have different performance sweet spots, one works better for a large number of small files, the other works better for a small number of large files. The decision to go Reiser did cause problems when we encountered an error in Reiser lock which would hang our server with no indication why other than it was the filesystem caused hang. When the problem was identified and resolved (after 9 painful months) the performance was very good. Phil -- 'in media stat virtus' Virtue's in the middle -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> No, line mode makes sense at the boot prom level... but when a Solaris > box or HP box is booted into the OS, the console device becomes a fully > interactive terminal. Very handy for when the box's network settings > are wrong so you can't ssh into it. Exactly. You have enough control to 'ifconfig eth0 ;route add ' and then log in via a normal network connection to complete the repairs. > This allows you to login to the > console and use editors such as vi or emacs. What your suggesting only > adds the ability to issue control codes like a control-c, but not use > interactive TUI's. It's not enough of a gain to warrant the trouble. We're back to the assumption of what you use a console for. For me, it's only for getting the network interface temporarily configured so I can get to the box over the network. After that's done, it doesn't *matter* what the console can do -- I can do anything I want over the network (TUI, GUI, etc). > Maybe you're just more use to 3270 than I am... I really despise it. :) No, I date back to physical printing TTYs as Unix consoles -- the day we got the DECwriter 120 running at 4800 baud w/o crashing the front end on the 11/730 was a big deal for me...8-). I don't assume that console terminals will EVER be able to do intelligent editing...8-). > Current experience: Oh, the networking info on that vm is wrong. Log > into it's 3270 console... oh yeah, remember, don't type vi! Let's use > ed or ex... okay, configuration fixed... let's see if I can ping out > now. OH NO! I forgot to tell it only 1 ping! No control-c! *sigh* > Well, *if* it's pinging, I should be able to ssh in and kill the ping > process. If not... well, crap. > > Because of that, we have very few Unix admins who are authorized to use > the 3270 console. Making sharing the workload with the rest of the > admin group difficult. All of which could be implemented as PVM macros that prompted for parameters and then issued the correct commands with the correct options, with no need to ever touch the console directly. Or via CP SEND or PROP. We're just starting from different assumptions, I guess. I have no problems working on a TTY linemode console, because that's what I assume the lowest common denominator is, and I rarely use or need the setup tools. It's a PITA, but then it's only a problem long enough to get a network adapter temporarily configured and working. *Then* I do the permanent fix -- preferably from someplace warmer than the machine room and from a real VDT with cursor motion. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> Here's my point... The biggest barrier to my sharing support > responsibility for z/Linux is the console. Let me pose this question: how many of your colleagues know what to do after hitting L1-A on a Sun console, or accidentally disconnecting a serial cable to a console port? If they do know, how did they learn? Do they understand the difference between how to respond on a SPARCstation versus an E15000 (bonus points if they know *which* console on the E15K to use to respond)? If they do, then that's the result of education, not technology. I think the same consideration applies here -- but now we're in the realm of philosophy, not technology. Let's try both approaches and see what comes of it. My approach will fit either one; maybe we're solving different levels of the same problem. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
David Boyes wrote: We're just starting from different assumptions, I guess. I have no problems working on a TTY linemode console, because that's what I assume the lowest common denominator is, and I rarely use or need the setup tools. It's a PITA, but then it's only a problem long enough to get a network adapter temporarily configured and working. *Then* I do the permanent fix -- preferably from someplace warmer than the machine room and from a real VDT with cursor motion. I'm glad this works for you. I can do that to, if I want to continue being the handful that can support the box. I honestly recognize your points and see the validity in them, but anything short of what I'm asking for will continue to leave us 5 SA's as the only SA's for this platform. My average Unix SA's around me expect to be able to use vi, and most of them have no clue what to do without it. As for manually doing the ifconfig, fine and dandy, as long as they can get to the man page for it. They're use to Solaris and HP, they aren't going to know the linux syntax and device names without a reference... which at home in the middle of the night on-call they won't have readily. So my assumptions of what makes an adequate terminal console is one where the SA's can do just about everything they'll want to from right there. Edit files with vi, ping a host and control-c out of it, bash and ksh shell history navigation keys, the TUI form of Yast, etc etc. Without that, it won't get adopted by the rest of Unixdom, at least not here. Most of these admins have never seen a mainframe, let alone have any idea how to deal with one. It's not just that they want to be ignorant, there's also the cost of training them to do something differently. They need to be able to do console work the way they always have, simple as that. I know this must sound like a bunch of useless whining to those of you at home with the way things are now, and it's why most of this goes unsaid for so very very long. But if we ever want the average Unix admin to be able to work on these boxes comfortably, they need a console that is familiar. While my whining is partially motivated by my own dislike of 3270, it's mostly motivated by the huge wall it has made for my fellow workers. "Sure, I'd love to work on Linux," they say... until they see the console, "No thanks, Brandon." And with management not willing to force them to take training because it costs... we end up with the same few old folks supporting it. I can't be the only shop that has this problem, can I? -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
David Boyes wrote: Here's my point... The biggest barrier to my sharing support responsibility for z/Linux is the console. Let me pose this question: how many of your colleagues know what to do after hitting L1-A on a Sun console, or accidentally disconnecting a serial cable to a console port? If they do know, how did they learn? Do they understand the difference between how to respond on a SPARCstation versus an E15000 (bonus points if they know *which* console on the E15K to use to respond)? If they do, then that's the result of education, not technology. I think the same consideration applies here -- but now we're in the realm of philosophy, not technology. Let's try both approaches and see what comes of it. My approach will fit either one; maybe we're solving different levels of the same problem. Unfortunately, not many. I'd say 10 out of 50 would know. The rest depend on a remote terminal server product we use. They telnet to host and port, authenticate, and there's the console... or in a couple of cases, a menu to choose a console. They know the basics of telnet ^] send brk. Now some of them *use* to know how to do more, but haven't had to use it in years and lost it. For our E10k and Sunfire systems, we again, had a subset of admins who were trained on how manage them. They had the same problem, if you weren't on the E10k/Sunfire subteam, you avoided supporting the systems on them because you didn't know the way to do it. Sure we'd try and cross train others... but they used it so rarely, they forgot how. Even worse, "Where's that link on how to do this/that?" emails. In the end, only the subteam ends up supporting them. Again, my employer can't be the only one with this type of problem, can it? A small note, though... if you actually did know how to get to a console on the E10k and Sunfire systems, once there, it was fully usable, unlike 3270. And unless I'm misunderstanding you, your line mode approach breaks lots of things as well, like a TUI (see Yast), or bash command line history functions, for example. *Brandon -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Hi Brandon. I have some comments on your last post. I hope this could help in any way. [...] My average Unix SA's around me expect to be able to use vi, and most of them have no clue what to do without it. "sed" is a powerful tool for rescuing in a TN3270. As for manually doing the ifconfig, fine and dandy, as long as they can get to the man page for it. If the SA can reach the server in problem, they surely can type "man ifconfig" in google.com/linux . Or just log on to any other working linux on the same site. Unless all of your guests are down... They're use to Solaris and HP, they aren't going to know the linux syntax and device names without a reference... which at home in the middle of the night on-call they won't have readily. They don't have to, that's why we all use the man pages. Or even google! Edit files with vi, ping a host and control-c out of it You can send "^C" in a TN3270, which is indeed a Ctrl-C . Works perfectly to stop a ping command. , bash and ksh shell history navigation keys, You can use the "history" command and to replay the 29th command, send !29 in the console. Map the PF12 key to retreive by issuing the "#CP SET PF12 RETIEVE" command in the console to replay the last couple of commands. the TUI form of Yast, etc etc. YaST is only a frontend. Everything YaST does can be done by editing some files. Without that, it won't get adopted by the rest of Unixdom, at least not here. Most of these admins have never seen a mainframe, let alone have any idea how to deal with one. It's not just that they want to be ignorant, there's also the cost of training them to do something differently. Everything IMHO is a question of determination and interest. I never used a TN3270 console 1 year from now. It did not stop me to admin more than 100 linux guest under VM. I was willing to learn it and loved it. I only use the console to IPL and rescue the machines. They need to be able to do console work the way they always have, simple as that. I know this must sound like a bunch of useless whining to those of you at home with the way things are now, and it's why most of this goes unsaid for so very very long. But if we ever want the average Unix admin to be able to work on these boxes comfortably, they need a console that is familiar. Intel linux boxes and mainframe Linux boxes are not the same. You need to learn some things to be able to manage linuxes on the z. I fully understand your point, but I'm trying to give you some answers. I know it's hard to change some old habits, but managing Linux on the z is not all about TN3270. Regards. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> I'm glad this works for you. I can do that to, if I want to continue > being the handful that can support the box. I honestly recognize your > points and see the validity in them, but anything short of what I'm > asking for will continue to leave us 5 SA's as the only SA's for this > platform. My average Unix SA's around me expect to be able to use vi, > and most of them have no clue what to do without it. As for manually > doing the ifconfig, fine and dandy, as long as they can get to the man > page for it. They're use to Solaris and HP, they aren't going to know > the linux syntax and device names without a reference... which at home > in the middle of the night on-call they won't have readily. Possible alternatives: 1) Write them a quick cookbook man page detailing the steps to get a guest back on the net -- call it zlinux-console -- and put it on one of the Solaris or HP boxes. They can log in to their favorite environment and type 'man zlinux-console', and it's all laid out for them, and that way it's always available wherever they happen to be. 2) Put all the platform specific info into a wiki or something. This is good practice regardless of the platform (cf Time Management for Sysadmins, by Tom Limoncelli) 3) deploy a 'netconfig' script on your zLinux instances that prompts for the critical parameters (ip addres, netmask, default route) and executes the appropriate stuff for them. All address the issue w/o substantial effort, and can be done in an afternoon or less. > Without that, it won't get adopted by the rest of Unixdom, at least not > here. Most of these admins have never seen a mainframe, let alone have > any idea how to deal with one. It's not just that they want to be > ignorant, there's also the cost of training them to do something > differently. They need to be able to do console work the way they > always have, simple as that. I guess I don't understand how they adapt to different kinds of systems, then. It's no different than asking someone trained as a Solaris admin to deal with a HP/UX box. At a fundamental level, it ain't the same elephant, and they shouldn't expect it to be. *Every* platform has a few weirdo things about it -- you cope and move on with fixing what needs fixed. I don't see this as whining, but I do think we're trying to solve an education problem with technology, which in the long run, just won't work. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of David Boyes > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:35 PM > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: zLinux User Passwords on console > > I don't see this as whining, but I do think we're trying to solve an > education problem with technology, which in the long run, just won't > work. As proven by MS Windows. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> What version of SUSE is this, by the way? That might be helpful. SUSE 10.0 RC4 Paul -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Sounds like Brandon's sysadmin role must be a little different from ours. Either that or he's got 500+ servers? Heck, I'd be happy to have 5 linux sysadmin in my group!We have various other support teams support teams - db2, mq, websphere, etc. So the ones who can screw it up so badly that you need a console are few - and we all know how to fix it. Marcy Cortes "This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation." -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brandon Darbro Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:31 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] zLinux User Passwords on console David Boyes wrote: >> But doesn't that limit it to line mode again? If so, what the heck >> would be the point? >> > > I guess I start with the assumption that the console of a Unix machine > is something that does not ever get regular use -- it's a emergency > device at best. I find that it's safer to start with that assumption > for server instances. I don't allow console access to the non-zSeries > boxes for casual use, either. > > As far as I'm concerned, the point of the console is to allow you to > fix whatever it is that's preventing it from getting on the network, > which can usually be accomplished with the same commands you'd do from > a VDT-based console -- and those are all line mode commands anyway. > Once you're on the net, login on a network PTY and do the editing, etc. > > As far as advantages of the consoles being PVM clients: > > 1) Never having to allow J Random Luser to log in to the VM userid to > get to the "console" > > 2) PVM macros for common tasks. > > 3) Configuration and selection solicitor so operators don't need to > remember details. > > 4) Console access does not depend on having a working network > configuration in the guest. > > 5) Leverages existing Linux 3270 console support with minimal > development > > 6) PVM cross-system support over multiple transports (IP and non-IP) > > 7) Direct integration into z/OS or VSE-based automation tools without > development (most support PVM directly) > > 8) PVM implements the suppress-echo-response CCW correctly. 8-) > > 9) PVM already supports a transparent method of sending data (you can > actually run SNA traffic over PVM links if you so choose; ugly, but it > works). The same support could be drafted for your idea w/o totally > rewriting the session muxing code in PVM from scratch. > > 10) Multiple session support with session switching hotkeys. > > 11) (my favorite) Because we can. 8-) > And my Unix side of me recoils at what you've just described. Here's my point... The biggest barrier to my sharing support responsibility for z/Linux is the console. If the host doesn't ping, call this tiny list of admins, because none of us know (or want to know) how to use the console. They don't even want to reboot a box because they don't understand how to use the console, and they'd like to watch the console to see each boot step go properly. They won't work on the boxes for fear if they screw it up, they wouldn't know how to fix it via the console. So you get 5 admins who will work on them instead of 50+. I'm going to look into the virtual CTC idea. If I can make this work, I think it would be a great idea. Anything one can do to spread the workload around is great. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On 9/28/06, David Boyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 1) Write them a quick cookbook man page detailing the steps to get a guest back on the net -- call it zlinux-console -- and put it on one of the Solaris or HP boxes. They can log in to their favorite environment and type 'man zlinux-console', and it's all laid out for them, and that way it's always available wherever they happen to be. How 'bout : XAUTOLOG deadone STORAGE 512M IPL 200 Where the R/O disk 200 has a rescue system that will run from ramdisk, uses your central LDAP to authenticate (or has the well known root password) and tries to mount the file system as /sysimage or what have you. It should probably come up only with an IP address in your service network, not at the live (outside) network, but that's up to you. Bonus points if you make the rescue system in an NSS with a cool name. Obviously you could also let PROP do the autolog or use a web site to trigger it. Rob -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
> Unfortunately, not many. I'd say 10 out of 50 would know. I'd consider that pretty good, actually. You're ahead of the crowd there. > The rest > depend on a remote terminal server product we use. They telnet to host > and port, authenticate, and there's the console... or in a couple of > cases, a menu to choose a console. They know the basics of telnet ^] > send brk. Now some of them *use* to know how to do more, but haven't > had to use it in years and lost it. For our E10k and Sunfire systems, > we again, had a subset of admins who were trained on how manage them. > They had the same problem, if you weren't on the E10k/Sunfire subteam, > you avoided supporting the systems on them because you didn't know the > way to do it. Sure we'd try and cross train others... but they used it > so rarely, they forgot how. Even worse, "Where's that link on how to do > this/that?" emails. In the end, only the subteam ends up supporting them. Sounds like the problem is actually one of how to find the right docs, rather than the console access problem. > A small note, though... if you actually did know how to get to a console > on the E10k and Sunfire systems, once there, it was fully usable, unlike > 3270. True. But Sun didn't recommend (and still doesn't) using it for anything other than emergency recovery. Mistakes could accidentally stop other domains and do all sorts of other evil without really trying hard. Ditto with big Superdomes and pSeries boxen. > And unless I'm misunderstanding you, your line mode approach > breaks lots of things as well, like a TUI (see Yast), or bash command > line history functions, for example. No, it's just a preliminary step -- just like the getting to the console step on the Sunfires. You get the guest back on the network with the line mode stuff, then you log in using a normal telnet/SSH client and *get off the console*. You do whatever you need to do using the telnet/SSH session. In that case the TUI, Yast, bash functions, etc are fully functional and work like normal. That's one of the reasons I like the netconfig script idea -- can all that knowledge into a script, get it back on the air, and then deal with the long term fix. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
You know, it was just an idea on how to make life simpler for our shop. I said what I was looking for, I gave the requirements... why do you folks need to question why I need it or want it? If you can, and feel like, helping and pointing me in the right direction toward developing a solution, great! Thank you. But if all you want to just debate me on the merits of the idea and why I want it, please don't. It doesn't help, it just discourages someone who's trying to be inventive. Who knows, if I succeed, you might just find it helpful to you someday. Adam, thanks for your suggestion, I'm looking into it. David, I thank you for your ideas, too, but it's completely not what I'm looking for... However, if I had a clue on how to do what you wanted, I'd help you. I see no reason why a virtual serial connection between vm's can't be created. Maybe CTC is the way to do it. We'll see. And maybe the linux serial console code would need some changes to accommodate. Again, we'll see. But there has to be a way, and if there isn't, IBM should create a way. Virtual serial connections can be useful for a lot more than just consoles. Thanks folks, not trying to bite the hands that feed me... just frustrated at having to justify why my idea even deserves being helped. *Brandon -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
On Thu, 2006-09-28 at 13:36 -0500, Jay Maynard wrote: > I don't know of anyone who recommends ReiserFS for general production use on > any platform. There are people on this forum whom I respect a great deal, and who recommend against reiserfs on s390. Nevertheless I run reiserfs on three intelboxes 24x7, and I haven't seen filesystem corruption for 18 months. Based on that experience I like reiserfs on x86, if you have lots and lots of little files. I'll defer to the experts in the case of s390 with, perhaps, fewer small files and more large ones. (So Jay... now you know exactly ONE person who recommends reiserfs for general production use on ONE platform.) -- David Andrews A. Duda and Sons, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> The only question that comes to my mind is whether you told the > installed to do a "dasdfmt" of the volume in question? The Hercules > "dasdinit" is not sufficient (even though required) because it does not > format the tracks into 4K records that z/Linux requires. Why "msdos" > indeed? What filesystem type did you choose? I used ext3, not ResierFS. > SUSE seems to be enamored of ResierFS for some reason. But I remember > seeing messages here about it not being the best idea on the s390 > version of z/Linux. I chose Ext3 this time, same problem. I had install format the drives during the System analysis phase when it found the drives. I Activate them, then Format them. BTW there is an option there, Use DIAG. What's DIAG? Should I have told it to dasdfmt in the partition screen? That's what I'll do next. It's a bit slow, about 30 minutes to format a 10GB 3390. Paul -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Seasoned UNIX guys are maniacs at the keyboard. They want vi, autocomplete, and basically everything else that's available on a native Linux console. We shouldn't surmise what they want console access for - it may be to fix a network problem, maybe not. If VM is to support Linux in a transparent way, the console does need to be more usable. I've dealt with quite a few UNIX people who get instantly frustrated with the current setup. As if vi weren't tough enough for a VMer, I've had to learn sed and several other tricks to revive misconfigured images. I see it as merely quirky, but others see it as a detractor to serious implementation. And yes, that puts me in a small pool of folks willing to bridge the knowledge/education gap. In all, especially where Linux390 is a marginal sell, VM should be offering more than merely 'good enough'. Simplicity & Familiarity are two things that need to be considered in any kind of console solution. Ray Mrohs U.S. Department of Justice 202-307-6896 > Let me pose this question: how many of your colleagues know what to do > after hitting L1-A on a Sun console, or accidentally disconnecting a > serial cable to a console port? If they do know, how did they > learn? Do > they understand the difference between how to respond on a > SPARCstation > versus an E15000 (bonus points if they know *which* console > on the E15K > to use to respond)? > > If they do, then that's the result of education, not > technology. I think > the same consideration applies here -- but now we're in the realm of > philosophy, not technology. > > Let's try both approaches and see what comes of it. My > approach will fit > either one; maybe we're solving different levels of the same problem. > -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Marcy Cortes wrote: Sounds like Brandon's sysadmin role must be a little different from ours. Either that or he's got 500+ servers? Heck, I'd be happy to have 5 linux sysadmin in my group!We have various other support teams support teams - db2, mq, websphere, etc. So the ones who can screw it up so badly that you need a console are few - and we all know how to fix it. That could very well be the case. Without getting myself in trouble for revealing trade secrets, lets just say we've made a significant move towards having any Unix SA be able to support any Unix box. Our system build and sustaining support groups handle hundreds (maybe thousands? Not sure) of Unix servers. Various flavors of Unix. And on almost all of those distributed Unix systems, remote console is the key to making it possible. No running to the data center to hook up dumb terminal on a cart, needing to know if your pin-outs are right, if your serial terminal settings are right. The few systems that can't work this way are either being phased out, or supported by a small group of people (2-5)... and if they can, they'll talk the customer out of ever buying something like that again. Mainframe is just that much more different. Things my fellow admins face when trying to support z/Linux: * Different backup solution than the rest of distrubted Unix/Linux. * Different system health monitoring system. * A console that confuses them and if they do the wrong thing can freeze the vm. * Pages for run-away vm's (They charge for CPU?!? You're kidding! they say) Plus all the differences between SuSE Linux and any other Unix. Stuff like this seriously impacts how a "Jack of all Unix" group can support it. *Brandon -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Brandon Darbro wrote: >Current experience: Oh, the networking info on that vm is wrong. Log >into it's 3270 console... oh yeah, remember, don't type vi! Let's use >ed or ex... okay, configuration fixed... let's see if I can ping out >now. OH NO! I forgot to tell it only 1 ping! No control-c! *sigh* >Well, *if* it's pinging, I should be able to ssh in and kill the ping >process. If not... well, crap. At least this problem should actually be solved: you can send a control-c to the 3215 console by sending the two characters ^c on a line for themselves. (That's the "caret" character.) Likewise for ^d and ^z. Mit freundlichen Gruessen / Best Regards Ulrich Weigand -- Dr. Ulrich Weigand GNU compiler/toolchain for Linux on System z and Cell BE IBM Deutschland Entwicklung GmbH, Schoenaicher Str. 220, 71032 Boeblingen Phone: +49-7031/16-3727 --- Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Rob van der Heij wrote: On 9/28/06, David Boyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 1) Write them a quick cookbook man page detailing the steps to get a guest back on the net -- call it zlinux-console -- and put it on one of the Solaris or HP boxes. They can log in to their favorite environment and type 'man zlinux-console', and it's all laid out for them, and that way it's always available wherever they happen to be. How 'bout : XAUTOLOG deadone STORAGE 512M IPL 200 Where the R/O disk 200 has a rescue system that will run from ramdisk, uses your central LDAP to authenticate (or has the well known root password) and tries to mount the file system as /sysimage or what have you. It should probably come up only with an IP address in your service network, not at the live (outside) network, but that's up to you. Bonus points if you make the rescue system in an NSS with a cool name. Obviously you could also let PROP do the autolog or use a web site to trigger it. Rob Okay, but what about the times when one of the older SLES 8 vm's has a low memory condition and it's qeth driver goes to lala land? If I don't want to reboot the vm, I have to fix this via the console. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Paul Dembry > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:01 PM > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: Suse S390 help? > > I chose Ext3 this time, same problem. I had install format > the drives during > the System analysis phase when it found the drives. I > Activate them, then > Format them. BTW there is an option there, Use DIAG. What's > DIAG? Should I > have told it to dasdfmt in the partition screen? That's what > I'll do next. > It's a bit slow, about 30 minutes to format a 10GB 3390. > Paul DIAG is a z/VM thing only. It is of no use in Hercules. Basically, I/O on s/390 is done using the SSCH instruction and CCW strings. DIAG is a way to do I/O under z/VM which is more efficient, when running z/Linux under z/VM. DIAG is the "interface" to talk directly to the z/VM hypervisor. I know that I succeeded with SLES-10-RC3 installation and I did, indeed, tell it to do a "dasdfmt" on the installation. And then I went to bed for the night. My Athlon64 3800+ gets about 25 emulated MIPS under Hercules. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:59 PM, David Andrews wrote: Based on that experience I like reiserfs on x86, if you have lots and lots of little files. I'll defer to the experts in the case of s390 with, perhaps, fewer small files and more large ones. I haven't been back to it in a long time. I was using it with a whole lot of very small files on s390. Under extreme load, eventually Reiserfs ate itself and died horrifically and unrecoverably. I was not pleased. This was about 2 years ago now, but, well, I have other filesystems that don't do that to me, so I haven't felt like trying Reiserfs again. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Ulrich Weigand wrote: Brandon Darbro wrote: Current experience: Oh, the networking info on that vm is wrong. Log into it's 3270 console... oh yeah, remember, don't type vi! Let's use ed or ex... okay, configuration fixed... let's see if I can ping out now. OH NO! I forgot to tell it only 1 ping! No control-c! *sigh* Well, *if* it's pinging, I should be able to ssh in and kill the ping process. If not... well, crap. At least this problem should actually be solved: you can send a control-c to the 3215 console by sending the two characters ^c on a line for themselves. (That's the "caret" character.) Likewise for ^d and ^z. I've tried that with x3270 as my client terminal program... it's never worked. Any idea as to why? *Brandon -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Sep 28, 2006, at 2:07 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seasoned UNIX guys are maniacs at the keyboard. They want vi, autocomplete, and basically everything else that's available on a native Linux console. REALLY seasoned Unix guys are not late-90s Linux weenies, and know how to survive just fine with TERM="dumb" and a real Bourne Shell, not Bash, as /bin/sh. Grumble grumble where's my Geritol? WHICH OF YOU KIDS STOLE MY GERITOL? Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Sep 28, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Brandon Darbro wrote: Things my fellow admins face when trying to support z/Linux: * Different backup solution than the rest of distrubted Unix/Linux. Why? Bacula and Amanda run spiffily under it. * Different system health monitoring system. Why? Nagios runs spiffily on it. Now, granted, neither of these has a lot of z/VM *host* support out of the box (watch this space, though...), but if what you care about is Linux, those apps treat it like Linux on any other architecture. If the issue is "whatever backup and monitoring products we run for x86 Linux aren't available for zSeries Linux"...then that's a problem with your vendor and its responsiveness to your needs, not Linux on zSeries. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> I know that I succeeded with SLES-10-RC3 installation and I did, indeed, > tell it to do a "dasdfmt" on the installation. And then I went to bed > for the night. My Athlon64 3800+ gets about 25 emulated MIPS under > Hercules. Do you recall if you had to lay out the partitions yourself? The installer always comes up saying that it cannot create an automatic proposal for disk partitioning (something like that). Paul -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Adam Thornton wrote: On Sep 28, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Brandon Darbro wrote: Things my fellow admins face when trying to support z/Linux: * Different backup solution than the rest of distrubted Unix/Linux. Why? Bacula and Amanda run spiffily under it. * Different system health monitoring system. Why? Nagios runs spiffily on it. Now, granted, neither of these has a lot of z/VM *host* support out of the box (watch this space, though...), but if what you care about is Linux, those apps treat it like Linux on any other architecture. If the issue is "whatever backup and monitoring products we run for x86 Linux aren't available for zSeries Linux"...then that's a problem with your vendor and its responsiveness to your needs, not Linux on zSeries. Adam The problem is with enterprise wide standards we use for these things. We just recently (*finally*) got the backup software available, but it's sans the Oracle agent, so it's only mostly useful. As for the monitoring software, it's available for x86 but not zSeries, and to be honest it shouldn't go on zSeries. It's too much of a resource eater to be on a system where we bill folks for cpu usage. An idle system should be as idle as possible to avoid racking up huge bills, so a monitoring solution that is constantly buzzing on the cpu would be bad. I wish I felt I could share what these products were, but Boeing really frowns on going public with technologies we use, for fear of it sounding like an endorsement. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Hobbit runs very well also (the new 4.2 release cuts CPU Utilization by 80%!) And there is a Hobbit client for z/VM. There is a client for z/OS as well, but since I don't have access to a z/OS system I don't know how well it works. Adam Thornton wrote: Why? Nagios runs spiffily on it. Now, granted, neither of these has a lot of z/VM *host* support out of the box (watch this space, though...), but if what you care about is Linux, those apps treat it like Linux on any other architecture. If the issue is "whatever backup and monitoring products we run for x86 Linux aren't available for zSeries Linux"...then that's a problem with your vendor and its responsiveness to your needs, not Linux on zSeries. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Rich Smrcina VM Assist, Inc. Phone: 414-491-6001 Ans Service: 360-715-2467 rich.smrcina at vmassist.com Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2007 - Green Bay, WI - May 18-22, 2007 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> I know that I succeeded with SLES-10-RC3 installation and I did, indeed, > tell it to do a "dasdfmt" on the installation. And then I went to bed > for the night. My Athlon64 3800+ gets about 25 emulated MIPS under > Hercules. Hmm when I choose dasdfmt in the partition screen, I get the hourglass for a few seconds and then nothing. Continuing onward, it fails again with the same thing, trying to set the disk label of /dev/dasda to msdos. I installed Centos Linux on this Hercules as well other OSs and they work so I'm confident of our Hercules installation, there's just something about this SUSE. My next attempt is to dasdinit the 3390-9 again w/o -linux, not format it during the System Analysis phase, and tell it to dasdfmt during the partition phase. Do you recall what disk device type you used? I have them defined as 0120 3390 /hercules/suse390/dasd/linux.120 0121 3390 /hercules/suse390/dasd/linux.121 and in dasdinit, I used 3390-2 and 3390-9 as the device types. BTW I'm running Hercules on our SUSE 9 system. Thanks, Paul -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
Yes. Jay said that the -linux option for dasdinit should do the same thing for you, but I think it's worth trying. If that works, when -linux didn't then you can file a bug report with Jay. :) If not, then we're definitely into unknown territory here. Mark Post -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Dembry Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:01 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Suse S390 help? -snip- Should I have told it to dasdfmt in the partition screen? That's what I'll do next. It's a bit slow, about 30 minutes to format a 10GB 3390. Paul -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
"then that's a problem with your vendor and its responsiveness to your needs, not Linux on zSeries." And they are much more responsive if you start the beating close to when contract renewals are going on. Just be sure and ask for future version of your o/s too so that you don't have to keep doing the beating over and over :) We've fought these battles a lot... It would be helpful if we knew who else is fighting them too. Perhaps Len Santalucia's zSeries executive council is a good place for that? Marcy Cortes "This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation." -Original Message- Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Len is a great place to start. But I have a better idea: the ISVCOSTS list server! It is primarily a z/OS product-centric list server, but I do not believe it is restricted to that. See below: Instructions and guidelines for use are below. Please keep this note for future reference. If you have colleagues who would like to join, please ask them to point their web browser to http://www.can.ibm.com/isvcosts for details on this peer discussion group and an application form to join. There is no charge. John Anderson is an asset management specialist who moderates the list and who works for IBM Canada but DOES NOT share the information with IBM. No vendors are allowed to join the list and it is VERY USEFUL for open and honest discussions about ISV software. Bob Richards -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marcy Cortes Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: zLinux User Passwords on console "then that's a problem with your vendor and its responsiveness to your needs, not Linux on zSeries." And they are much more responsive if you start the beating close to when contract renewals are going on. Just be sure and ask for future version of your o/s too so that you don't have to keep doing the beating over and over :) We've fought these battles a lot... It would be helpful if we knew who else is fighting them too. Perhaps Len Santalucia's zSeries executive council is a good place for that? Marcy Cortes LEGAL DISCLAIMER The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Seeing Beyond Money is a service mark of SunTrust Banks, Inc. [ST:XCL] -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Thursday, 09/28/2006 at 02:18 MST, Brandon Darbro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've tried that with x3270 as my client terminal program... it's never > worked. Any idea as to why? Make sure the client is emulating host code page 37. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Brandon Darbro wrote:
David Boyes wrote:
I'm not sure there's anything they *can* do. The guest doesn't see the
input until the attention key gets pressed, so that it really doesn't
get control in any useful way.
You might be able to do something with a 3270 console, but that's
probably unlikely to be useful in a VM environment (spare us VINPUT,
please!).
It would be a lot easier to configure (and probably more useful to have)
a root shell to always be running on the console without a Unix login
required. Since you already have a authorization method in place (the VM
userid login) that does password suppression correctly, that would be
the "right" thing to do -- after all, if you have the VM userid
password, you can already do all the harm that a root user can do, and
you have secure logging of the fact that the login occurred.
You know, linux can use serial ports as a console device... So why
hasn't IBM come up with a virtual serial port type of console system to
use instead? Something like having the console on /dev/ttyS0, and that
via some z/VM magic, is available on an IP as a port number. Telnet to
the port, and Linux's getty takes it from there. Or better yet, through
some z/VM magic, the serial ports could be mapped to another Linux
host's serial ports, say one set up as a console appliance... Then that
appliance could be configured to allow access to them in a variety of
ways, whether it be by port numbers, account names, ssh key, whatever.
I've been imagining this for a long time now, and just wondered why IBM
never did it.
A 2741 attached view a 270{1,2,3{ (I'd need to drag out tbe books to
rememebr which one) would probably do it.
--
Cheers
John
-- spambait
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Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
Alan Altmark wrote: On Thursday, 09/28/2006 at 08:17 MST, Brandon Darbro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You know, linux can use serial ports as a console device... So why hasn't IBM come up with a virtual serial port type of console system to use instead? Something like having the console on /dev/ttyS0, and that via some z/VM magic, is available on an IP as a port number. Telnet to the port, and Linux's getty takes it from there. Or better yet, through some z/VM magic, the serial ports could be mapped to another Linux host's serial ports, say one set up as a console appliance... Then that appliance could be configured to allow access to them in a variety of ways, whether it be by port numbers, account names, ssh key, whatever. I've been imagining this for a long time now, and just wondered why IBM never did it. IBM *has* been imagining this for a long time, too. The good thing is that the cold compresses have been effective and the migraines don't occur as often now as they used to The problem has to do with block 3270 vs. serial NVT mode. You would enter the system in line mode and switch to 3270 as usual to get a VM logo and logon, then, by some miracle TBD, switch back to line mode (emulators aren't so good at this, btw). And then there's the whole ASCII/EBCDIC/ASCII translation thing. You really want a "passthru mode" LDEV. Unless you're connecting to an EBCDIC guest, of course. [The light is hurting my eyes now...I have to go lay down.] Does z/VM support (remote) 2741 terminals or similar? I don't suppose there are many 2741 terminals in captivity, but an emulation shouldn't be hard to do. -- Cheers John -- spambait [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tourist pics http://portgeographe.environmentaldisasters.cds.merseine.nu/ Please do not reply off-list -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
David Boyes wrote: I seem to recall that quite a long time ago--maybe 5 years now--there was discussion of doing clustering/HA stuff with Linux guests that used vCTCs as serial devices. Maybe this could do what you want: Define one octopus guest, the console server, with dozens of CTC pairs, each coupled to one other guest, and for each connected guest, have that guest use the CTC serial device as its console. Better yet, make them PVM clients over the CTC, and map that PVM session as /dev/console. Then you get all the cool automation stuff and multisession support of PVM as well. What kind of terminal are you sitting at? Seems to me if you're starting at a block-mode device you have problems. -- Cheers John -- spambait [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tourist pics http://portgeographe.environmentaldisasters.cds.merseine.nu/ Please do not reply off-list -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
David Andrews wrote: On Thu, 2006-09-28 at 13:36 -0500, Jay Maynard wrote: I don't know of anyone who recommends ReiserFS for general production use on any platform. There are people on this forum whom I respect a great deal, and who recommend against reiserfs on s390. Nevertheless I run reiserfs on three intelboxes 24x7, and I haven't seen filesystem corruption for 18 months. Based on that experience I like reiserfs on x86, if you have lots and lots of little files. I'll defer to the experts in the case of s390 with, perhaps, fewer small files and more large ones. (So Jay... now you know exactly ONE person who recommends reiserfs for general production use on ONE platform.) I'm sure there are lots of people for whom it works, but _I_ see too many reports of problems to be at all interested in using it. First time I installed a SUSE, I did get reiserfs, and did use it briefly. I like to chattr +a ~/.bash_history and my recollection is that that didn't work. -- Cheers John -- spambait [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tourist pics http://portgeographe.environmentaldisasters.cds.merseine.nu/ Please do not reply off-list -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: zLinux User Passwords on console
On Sep 28, 2006, at 2:18 PM, Brandon Darbro wrote: I've tried that with x3270 as my client terminal program... it's never worked. Any idea as to why? Code page/keymap issue. x3270 is probably sending a logical not symbol rather than a caret. I'm sure someone who remembers how to fix this will chime in with the solution. Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
> -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Paul Dembry > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:32 PM > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: Suse S390 help? > > > > I know that I succeeded with SLES-10-RC3 installation and I did, > > indeed, tell it to do a "dasdfmt" on the installation. And > then I went > > to bed for the night. My Athlon64 3800+ gets about 25 emulated MIPS > > under Hercules. > Do you recall if you had to lay out the partitions yourself? > The installer always comes up saying that it cannot create an > automatic proposal for disk partitioning (something like that). Paul > Yes, I always do my own partitioning! I'm really, really weird. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
I only use 3390-3 emulated DASD on Hercules. Who knows, some day I might actually be able to get a z/Linux system on my work zSeries machine. It would be "nice" to just backup my Hercules disk images in some manner which would allow them to be restored on real zSeries DASD and IPL'ed. Again, I'm weird. Hmm perhaps SUSE s390 has a problem with a 3390-9 (> 2GB?). Seems odd but I'll try it again. On my last try, I looked around before starting yast. I found fdasd and I used it to create my partitions, eg fdasd /dev/dasda fdasd /dev/dasdb I then started the yast install procedure. The System Information section found my drives as usual and also showed the partitions. But when I got to the actual install, it still insisted that it could not create a partition proposal and when I opened up the partitioning section, my partitions were not there. Perhaps a clue. Anyway I'll try with a smaller system DASD and see what happens. Once I get this to work, I would next like to get LVM to work as well. Thanks for all the help! If I can just get past this point, I think I will have it installed. Centos was nice but neither Oracle nor DB2 install on it. BTW are you running S390 or S390x SUSE? Paul -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Suse S390 help?
I only use 3390-3 emulated DASD on Hercules. Who knows, some day I might actually be able to get a z/Linux system on my work zSeries machine. It would be "nice" to just backup my Hercules disk images in some manner which would allow them to be restored on real zSeries DASD and IPL'ed. Well using just 3390-3 dasds did not work either. This is really getting irritating. John, can you send me your hercules configuration file? Maybe I'm doing something stupid here. This is what I am using: # # Configuration file for Hercules emulator # CPUSERIAL 000611 CPUMODEL 3090 MAINSIZE 512 XPNDSIZE 0 CNSLPORT 3270 HTTPPORT 8081 NUMCPU 1 LOADPARM 0120 SYSEPOCH 1900 #TZOFFSET -0800 TODDRAG 1 ARCHMODE ESA/390 PANRATE FAST OSTAILOR LINUX #PGMPRDOS LICENSED # .-Device number # |.Device type # || .File name # || | # VV V #--- 000E 1403 print00e.txt crlf 001F 3270 0580 3420 ickdsf.ipl 0120 3390 /hercules/suse390/dasd/linux.120 0121 3390 /hercules/suse390/dasd/linux.121 0200 3270 0201 3270 0202 3270 0700 3270 3270 3215 0E20.2 CTCI -n /dev/net/tun 192.0.2.26 192.0.2.2 Paul -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
