Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
Yes you are right, it's all about negotiating with the vendor. And as you say also , the size can make a big difference. Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of William D Carroll [william.d.carr...@jpmchase.com] Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 16:33 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb Again ELA, that's licensing per core depending on your ELA can change. again, depending on company and size. WAS for us was a moot point as was Oracle, DB2 etc.. no software advantage just stating it's not a blanket thing William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Agblad Tore Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 10:21 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb Thank's, Yes they know, and are involved. The win is due to pricing often is per CPU/Core. Both SLES and WAS are licensed per CPU/core. We need one license per IFL and they also need one license per cpu/core in blades. There are at least two cpus in each nowadays, so 200 servers usually means about 400 licenses compared to one or two for one or two IFLs:s. The pricetag differs yes, but far from that much. ___ Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development, Linux servers Dept 4352 DA1S SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden Telephone: +46-31-3233569 E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of William D Carroll Sent: den 22 juni 2009 15:42 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb FYI Your company ELAs may have a impact on this so be aware. Be sure you get you Licensing folks involved as they know the ELA's better than anyone. In our case Software cost became a moot point due to ELA's and it became a HW battle. The size of your company and how it's ELA's are structured could impact this tremendously. William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure ECS Core Services z/Software Group / Emerging Technologies -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Agblad Tore Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:29 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb You can not just take the isolated cpu-hw-cost and compare. Also include in HWcost all maint with HW, like connecting-power-cables-boxes and so on. With many blades you have to keep all these switches and cables in order. Just the simple case install a new server includes bying the HW, carry it into the server hall (you will need authorithy which often means you have to wait for the guy with the 'key') connect them (is there enough power in you diesel-backup?) add cables to a switch (which switch and who documents this) and the installing. There is some manhour here. By now you probably also have a different box, not the same as the existing ones, and you can not guarante exact same hw, maybe different drivers for new bios/network/disks/SCSI adapters.. Some customers requires exactly same setup for test-QA-prod, that may now be hard to get. Include all that and: When you have 200 Linux servers, do the calculation, and you will se that the z alternative will have about the same hw-cost as x86 blades. If you also include the license costs, the z maybe comes out as the most cost-effective one. Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Ivan Warren [i...@vmfacility.fr] Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 01:39 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb > In my Linux Installation Planning talks, I address this briefly. Until such > time as IFL processors cost the same as Intel processors, i.e. never, there > will always be some point along the spectrum of workload profiles where it > makes more sense to run a given application on midrange hardware and not the > mainframe. With the introduction of the z10, that point has moved > considerably, in favor of the mainframe. There is still going to be a > substantial grey
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
No, they did, They negotiated x86 so low that the IFL pricing became a moot point Oracle on x86 is an enterprise license for example, we pay same price for all platforms Same for IBM products etc. They did too good a job is the problem William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Barton Robinson Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 3:18 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb So your contract negotiations people need to be educated on how to negotiate a much lower ELA? William D Carroll wrote: > Again > ELA, that's licensing per core depending on your ELA can change. > again, depending on company and size. WAS for us was a moot point as > was Oracle, DB2 etc.. no software advantage > > just stating it's not a blanket thing > > William 'Doug' Carroll > Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I > Global Technology Infrastructure > > > -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of > Agblad Tore > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 10:21 AM > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb > > Thank's, Yes they know, and are involved. > The win is due to pricing often is per CPU/Core. > > Both SLES and WAS are licensed per CPU/core. > We need one license per IFL > and they also need one license per cpu/core in blades. > There are at least two cpus in each nowadays, so 200 servers usually > means about 400 licenses compared to one or two for one or two IFLs:s. > The pricetag differs yes, but far from that much. > > ___ > Tore Agblad > Volvo Information Technology > Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development, Linux servers Dept 4352 > DA1S > SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden > > Telephone: +46-31-3233569 > E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com > > http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ > > -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of > William D Carroll > Sent: den 22 juni 2009 15:42 > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb > > FYI > Your company ELAs may have a impact on this so be aware. > Be sure you get you Licensing folks involved as they know the ELA's > better than anyone. In our case Software cost became a moot point due > to ELA's and it became a HW battle. > > The size of your company and how it's ELA's are structured could > impact this tremendously. > > William 'Doug' Carroll > Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I > Global Technology Infrastructure > ECS Core Services z/Software Group / Emerging Technologies > > -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of > Agblad Tore > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:29 AM > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb > > You can not just take the isolated cpu-hw-cost and compare. > Also include in HWcost all maint with HW, like connecting-power-cables-boxes > and so on. > With many blades you have to keep all these switches and cables in > order. Just the simple case install a new server includes bying the > HW, carry it into the server hall (you will need authorithy which > often means you have to wait for the guy with the 'key') connect them > (is there enough power in you > diesel-backup?) add cables to a switch (which switch and who documents this) > and the installing. > There is some manhour here. > By now you probably also have a different box, not the same as the > existing ones, and you can not guarante exact same hw, maybe different > drivers for new bios/network/disks/SCSI adapters.. > Some customers requires exactly same setup for test-QA-prod, that may now be > hard to get. > Include all that and: > When you have 200 Linux servers, do the calculation, and you will se > that the z alternative will have about the same hw-cost as x86 blades. > > If you also include the license costs, the z maybe comes out as the most > cost-effective one. > > Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar > Tore Agblad > >Volvo Information Technology >Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development >SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden >E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com > >http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ > > From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Ivan > Warren [i...@vmfacility.fr] > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 01:39 > To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
So your contract negotiations people need to be educated on how to negotiate a much lower ELA? William D Carroll wrote: Again ELA, that's licensing per core depending on your ELA can change. again, depending on company and size. WAS for us was a moot point as was Oracle, DB2 etc.. no software advantage just stating it's not a blanket thing William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Agblad Tore Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 10:21 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb Thank's, Yes they know, and are involved. The win is due to pricing often is per CPU/Core. Both SLES and WAS are licensed per CPU/core. We need one license per IFL and they also need one license per cpu/core in blades. There are at least two cpus in each nowadays, so 200 servers usually means about 400 licenses compared to one or two for one or two IFLs:s. The pricetag differs yes, but far from that much. ___ Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development, Linux servers Dept 4352 DA1S SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden Telephone: +46-31-3233569 E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of William D Carroll Sent: den 22 juni 2009 15:42 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb FYI Your company ELAs may have a impact on this so be aware. Be sure you get you Licensing folks involved as they know the ELA's better than anyone. In our case Software cost became a moot point due to ELA's and it became a HW battle. The size of your company and how it's ELA's are structured could impact this tremendously. William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure ECS Core Services z/Software Group / Emerging Technologies -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Agblad Tore Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:29 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb You can not just take the isolated cpu-hw-cost and compare. Also include in HWcost all maint with HW, like connecting-power-cables-boxes and so on. With many blades you have to keep all these switches and cables in order. Just the simple case install a new server includes bying the HW, carry it into the server hall (you will need authorithy which often means you have to wait for the guy with the 'key') connect them (is there enough power in you diesel-backup?) add cables to a switch (which switch and who documents this) and the installing. There is some manhour here. By now you probably also have a different box, not the same as the existing ones, and you can not guarante exact same hw, maybe different drivers for new bios/network/disks/SCSI adapters.. Some customers requires exactly same setup for test-QA-prod, that may now be hard to get. Include all that and: When you have 200 Linux servers, do the calculation, and you will se that the z alternative will have about the same hw-cost as x86 blades. If you also include the license costs, the z maybe comes out as the most cost-effective one. Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Ivan Warren [i...@vmfacility.fr] Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 01:39 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb In my Linux Installation Planning talks, I address this briefly. Until such time as IFL processors cost the same as Intel processors, i.e. never, there will always be some point along the spectrum of workload profiles where it makes more sense to run a given application on midrange hardware and not the mainframe. With the introduction of the z10, that point has moved considerably, in favor of the mainframe. There is still going to be a substantial grey area before that point, which is why each case needs to be examined individually to make the correct decision. Amen ! --Ivan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
Again ELA, that's licensing per core depending on your ELA can change. again, depending on company and size. WAS for us was a moot point as was Oracle, DB2 etc.. no software advantage just stating it's not a blanket thing William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Agblad Tore Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 10:21 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb Thank's, Yes they know, and are involved. The win is due to pricing often is per CPU/Core. Both SLES and WAS are licensed per CPU/core. We need one license per IFL and they also need one license per cpu/core in blades. There are at least two cpus in each nowadays, so 200 servers usually means about 400 licenses compared to one or two for one or two IFLs:s. The pricetag differs yes, but far from that much. ___ Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development, Linux servers Dept 4352 DA1S SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden Telephone: +46-31-3233569 E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of William D Carroll Sent: den 22 juni 2009 15:42 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb FYI Your company ELAs may have a impact on this so be aware. Be sure you get you Licensing folks involved as they know the ELA's better than anyone. In our case Software cost became a moot point due to ELA's and it became a HW battle. The size of your company and how it's ELA's are structured could impact this tremendously. William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure ECS Core Services z/Software Group / Emerging Technologies -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Agblad Tore Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:29 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb You can not just take the isolated cpu-hw-cost and compare. Also include in HWcost all maint with HW, like connecting-power-cables-boxes and so on. With many blades you have to keep all these switches and cables in order. Just the simple case install a new server includes bying the HW, carry it into the server hall (you will need authorithy which often means you have to wait for the guy with the 'key') connect them (is there enough power in you diesel-backup?) add cables to a switch (which switch and who documents this) and the installing. There is some manhour here. By now you probably also have a different box, not the same as the existing ones, and you can not guarante exact same hw, maybe different drivers for new bios/network/disks/SCSI adapters.. Some customers requires exactly same setup for test-QA-prod, that may now be hard to get. Include all that and: When you have 200 Linux servers, do the calculation, and you will se that the z alternative will have about the same hw-cost as x86 blades. If you also include the license costs, the z maybe comes out as the most cost-effective one. Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Ivan Warren [i...@vmfacility.fr] Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 01:39 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb > In my Linux Installation Planning talks, I address this briefly. Until such > time as IFL processors cost the same as Intel processors, i.e. never, there > will always be some point along the spectrum of workload profiles where it > makes more sense to run a given application on midrange hardware and not the > mainframe. With the introduction of the z10, that point has moved > considerably, in favor of the mainframe. There is still going to be a > substantial grey area before that point, which is why each case needs to be > examined individually to make the correct decision. > > Amen ! --Ivan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-39
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
Thank's, Yes they know, and are involved. The win is due to pricing often is per CPU/Core. Both SLES and WAS are licensed per CPU/core. We need one license per IFL and they also need one license per cpu/core in blades. There are at least two cpus in each nowadays, so 200 servers usually means about 400 licenses compared to one or two for one or two IFLs:s. The pricetag differs yes, but far from that much. ___ Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development, Linux servers Dept 4352 DA1S SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden Telephone: +46-31-3233569 E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of William D Carroll Sent: den 22 juni 2009 15:42 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb FYI Your company ELAs may have a impact on this so be aware. Be sure you get you Licensing folks involved as they know the ELA's better than anyone. In our case Software cost became a moot point due to ELA's and it became a HW battle. The size of your company and how it's ELA's are structured could impact this tremendously. William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure ECS Core Services z/Software Group / Emerging Technologies -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Agblad Tore Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:29 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb You can not just take the isolated cpu-hw-cost and compare. Also include in HWcost all maint with HW, like connecting-power-cables-boxes and so on. With many blades you have to keep all these switches and cables in order. Just the simple case install a new server includes bying the HW, carry it into the server hall (you will need authorithy which often means you have to wait for the guy with the 'key') connect them (is there enough power in you diesel-backup?) add cables to a switch (which switch and who documents this) and the installing. There is some manhour here. By now you probably also have a different box, not the same as the existing ones, and you can not guarante exact same hw, maybe different drivers for new bios/network/disks/SCSI adapters.. Some customers requires exactly same setup for test-QA-prod, that may now be hard to get. Include all that and: When you have 200 Linux servers, do the calculation, and you will se that the z alternative will have about the same hw-cost as x86 blades. If you also include the license costs, the z maybe comes out as the most cost-effective one. Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Ivan Warren [i...@vmfacility.fr] Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 01:39 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb > In my Linux Installation Planning talks, I address this briefly. Until such > time as IFL processors cost the same as Intel processors, i.e. never, there > will always be some point along the spectrum of workload profiles where it > makes more sense to run a given application on midrange hardware and not the > mainframe. With the introduction of the z10, that point has moved > considerably, in favor of the mainframe. There is still going to be a > substantial grey area before that point, which is why each case needs to be > examined individually to make the correct decision. > > Amen ! --Ivan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 This communication is for informational purposes only. It is not intended as an offer or solicitation for the purchase or sale of any financial instrument or as an official confirmation of any transaction. All market prices, data and other information are not warranted as to completeness or accuracy and are subject to change without notice. Any comments or statements made herein do not necessarily reflect those of JPMorgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates. This transmission may contain information that is privilege
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
FYI Your company ELAs may have a impact on this so be aware. Be sure you get you Licensing folks involved as they know the ELA's better than anyone. In our case Software cost became a moot point due to ELA's and it became a HW battle. The size of your company and how it's ELA's are structured could impact this tremendously. William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure ECS Core Services z/Software Group / Emerging Technologies -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Agblad Tore Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:29 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb You can not just take the isolated cpu-hw-cost and compare. Also include in HWcost all maint with HW, like connecting-power-cables-boxes and so on. With many blades you have to keep all these switches and cables in order. Just the simple case install a new server includes bying the HW, carry it into the server hall (you will need authorithy which often means you have to wait for the guy with the 'key') connect them (is there enough power in you diesel-backup?) add cables to a switch (which switch and who documents this) and the installing. There is some manhour here. By now you probably also have a different box, not the same as the existing ones, and you can not guarante exact same hw, maybe different drivers for new bios/network/disks/SCSI adapters.. Some customers requires exactly same setup for test-QA-prod, that may now be hard to get. Include all that and: When you have 200 Linux servers, do the calculation, and you will se that the z alternative will have about the same hw-cost as x86 blades. If you also include the license costs, the z maybe comes out as the most cost-effective one. Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Ivan Warren [i...@vmfacility.fr] Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 01:39 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb > In my Linux Installation Planning talks, I address this briefly. Until such > time as IFL processors cost the same as Intel processors, i.e. never, there > will always be some point along the spectrum of workload profiles where it > makes more sense to run a given application on midrange hardware and not the > mainframe. With the introduction of the z10, that point has moved > considerably, in favor of the mainframe. There is still going to be a > substantial grey area before that point, which is why each case needs to be > examined individually to make the correct decision. > > Amen ! --Ivan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 This communication is for informational purposes only. It is not intended as an offer or solicitation for the purchase or sale of any financial instrument or as an official confirmation of any transaction. All market prices, data and other information are not warranted as to completeness or accuracy and are subject to change without notice. Any comments or statements made herein do not necessarily reflect those of JPMorgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates. This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential, legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Although this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. Please refer to http://www.
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
You can not just take the isolated cpu-hw-cost and compare. Also include in HWcost all maint with HW, like connecting-power-cables-boxes and so on. With many blades you have to keep all these switches and cables in order. Just the simple case install a new server includes bying the HW, carry it into the server hall (you will need authorithy which often means you have to wait for the guy with the 'key') connect them (is there enough power in you diesel-backup?) add cables to a switch (which switch and who documents this) and the installing. There is some manhour here. By now you probably also have a different box, not the same as the existing ones, and you can not guarante exact same hw, maybe different drivers for new bios/network/disks/SCSI adapters.. Some customers requires exactly same setup for test-QA-prod, that may now be hard to get. Include all that and: When you have 200 Linux servers, do the calculation, and you will se that the z alternative will have about the same hw-cost as x86 blades. If you also include the license costs, the z maybe comes out as the most cost-effective one. Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Ivan Warren [i...@vmfacility.fr] Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 01:39 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb > In my Linux Installation Planning talks, I address this briefly. Until such > time as IFL processors cost the same as Intel processors, i.e. never, there > will always be some point along the spectrum of workload profiles where it > makes more sense to run a given application on midrange hardware and not the > mainframe. With the introduction of the z10, that point has moved > considerably, in favor of the mainframe. There is still going to be a > substantial grey area before that point, which is why each case needs to be > examined individually to make the correct decision. > > Amen ! --Ivan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
One calculation from real life I have seen is that the z alternative hw cost was just below that of Intel blades per server. And also that hw cost is less than 10% of total cost, for all platforms. Just be sure to have ALL costs included. It's sometimes hard to get that in the Intelx86 case. Cordialement / Vriendelijke Groeten / Best Regards / Med Vänliga Hälsningar Tore Agblad Volvo Information Technology Infrastructure Mainframe Design & Development SE-405 08, Gothenburg Sweden E-mail: tore.agb...@volvo.com http://www.volvo.com/volvoit/global/en-gb/ From: Linux on 390 Port [linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Rodger Donaldson [rod...@diaspora.gen.nz] Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:29 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb Harder, Pieter wrote: >> I agree that the speed of CPU is not the problem anymore. But do you want >> CPU intensive load? Afaik the CPU in >mainframe, even z10, is still more >> expensive than an intel. So if you'd have CPU intensive loads, would it be >> still cost >effective to run on z? Do we still need to stay away from these >> applications? > > Just talking of the top of my head (meaning no real life comparison > experience, yet..) > > When you run out of the capabilities of standard Intellish hardware, you have > three options: > - splitting a two-tier setup to three-tier. Expensive/more complex because of > multiple server images > - look at non-standard Intellish hardware that is probably a lot more > expensive > - or look at something completely different like z or p (will Sparc still be > there to look at?) > > Of course it all depends, but option 3 may not be so far out as you think at > first glance. To amplify: Think about what if actually costs to deploy on decent hardware. My standard Intel server would require two power supplies, two single port FBA cards (if SAN attach is a requirement), and four ethernet ports (2 x failover primary, 1 backup, 1 management). Once you start eating a couple of power points, 4 switch ports, and two fibre ports per server, the cost, if accurately accounted for, looks quite different. Then, of course, you start wanting to cluster for availability, and the cost looks even less attractive, especially since you will be buying enough hardware that you can take full load on n-1 nodes. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
In my Linux Installation Planning talks, I address this briefly. Until such time as IFL processors cost the same as Intel processors, i.e. never, there will always be some point along the spectrum of workload profiles where it makes more sense to run a given application on midrange hardware and not the mainframe. With the introduction of the z10, that point has moved considerably, in favor of the mainframe. There is still going to be a substantial grey area before that point, which is why each case needs to be examined individually to make the correct decision. Amen ! --Ivan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
>>> On 6/18/2009 at 4:17 AM, "van Sleeuwen, Berry" wrote: > I agree that the speed of CPU is not the problem anymore. But do you > want CPU intensive load? Afaik the CPU in mainframe, even z10, is still > more expensive than an intel. So if you'd have CPU intensive loads, > would it be still cost effective to run on z? Do we still need to stay > away from these applications? In my Linux Installation Planning talks, I address this briefly. Until such time as IFL processors cost the same as Intel processors, i.e. never, there will always be some point along the spectrum of workload profiles where it makes more sense to run a given application on midrange hardware and not the mainframe. With the introduction of the z10, that point has moved considerably, in favor of the mainframe. There is still going to be a substantial grey area before that point, which is why each case needs to be examined individually to make the correct decision. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
> >I agree that the speed of CPU is not the problem anymore. But do you > want CPU intensive load? Afaik the CPU in >mainframe, even z10, is > still more expensive than an intel. So if you'd have CPU intensive > loads, would it be still cost >effective to run on z? Do we still need > to stay away from these applications? > > Just talking of the top of my head (meaning no real life comparison > experience, yet..) Also speculating... Most CPU intensive workloads also tend to be data-intensive in that they tend to draw large amounts of data from various sources and chew on them in various ways. There is a non-zero advantage to close proximity to the "official" source of data, which still tends to live somewhere inside the mainframe, at least in a commercial setting. You can do things within a machine that are not really practical in a distributed setup, which may tip the balance for you. I think Rob is correct that we should no longer avoid CPU intensive workloads, but concentrate on balancing them with I/O intensive workloads so that we optimize for 100% utilization as often as possible. That's the design sweet-spot for s390x anyway, so we might as well play to the strength of the design. I'd also think that dynamic workload management is going to be the distinguishing factor for this platform -- I'm really expecting a revival of eWLM as soon as IBM realizes how important this will become and does the work to integrate z/VM into it. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
Harder, Pieter wrote: >> I agree that the speed of CPU is not the problem anymore. But do you want >> CPU intensive load? Afaik the CPU in >mainframe, even z10, is still more >> expensive than an intel. So if you'd have CPU intensive loads, would it be >> still cost >effective to run on z? Do we still need to stay away from these >> applications? > > Just talking of the top of my head (meaning no real life comparison > experience, yet..) > > When you run out of the capabilities of standard Intellish hardware, you have > three options: > - splitting a two-tier setup to three-tier. Expensive/more complex because of > multiple server images > - look at non-standard Intellish hardware that is probably a lot more > expensive > - or look at something completely different like z or p (will Sparc still be > there to look at?) > > Of course it all depends, but option 3 may not be so far out as you think at > first glance. To amplify: Think about what if actually costs to deploy on decent hardware. My standard Intel server would require two power supplies, two single port FBA cards (if SAN attach is a requirement), and four ethernet ports (2 x failover primary, 1 backup, 1 management). Once you start eating a couple of power points, 4 switch ports, and two fibre ports per server, the cost, if accurately accounted for, looks quite different. Then, of course, you start wanting to cluster for availability, and the cost looks even less attractive, especially since you will be buying enough hardware that you can take full load on n-1 nodes. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
2009/6/18 van Sleeuwen, Berry : > I agree that the speed of CPU is not the problem anymore. But do you > want CPU intensive load? Afaik the CPU in mainframe, even z10, is still > more expensive than an intel. So if you'd have CPU intensive loads, > would it be still cost effective to run on z? Do we still need to stay > away from these applications? Two different things: compute intensive workload and server utilization Asymmetric encryption for example is compute intensive. But if each transaction takes 5 seconds and you only need to do that 5 times an hour, the server utilization is very low. It may still be a great candidate for the mainframe. And if you have 100 of those you can still do it on the same CPU without buying 99 extra discrete servers (apart from the fact that if you have 100 servers share the resources, you may be able to justify a cryptic card that can be shared) But there's extreme cases where things don't make sense. Like the application that was only used once a month for 30 minutes, but needed 12 CPUs during that peak... (the application got fixed so it needed less than 1 CPU for 30 minutes). Common sense and performance data gets you beyond the rules of thumb. -- Rob van der Heij Velocity Software http://www.velocitysoftware.com/ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
>I agree that the speed of CPU is not the problem anymore. But do you want CPU >intensive load? Afaik the CPU in >mainframe, even z10, is still more expensive >than an intel. So if you'd have CPU intensive loads, would it be still cost >>effective to run on z? Do we still need to stay away from these applications? Just talking of the top of my head (meaning no real life comparison experience, yet..) When you run out of the capabilities of standard Intellish hardware, you have three options: - splitting a two-tier setup to three-tier. Expensive/more complex because of multiple server images - look at non-standard Intellish hardware that is probably a lot more expensive - or look at something completely different like z or p (will Sparc still be there to look at?) Of course it all depends, but option 3 may not be so far out as you think at first glance. Best regards, Pieter Harder pieter.har...@brabantwater.nl tel +31-73-6837133 / +31-6-47272537 Brabant Water N.V. Postbus 1068 5200 BC 's-Hertogenbosch http://www.brabantwater.nl Handelsregister: 16005077 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
I agree that the speed of CPU is not the problem anymore. But do you want CPU intensive load? Afaik the CPU in mainframe, even z10, is still more expensive than an intel. So if you'd have CPU intensive loads, would it be still cost effective to run on z? Do we still need to stay away from these applications? Regards, berry. -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:linux-...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Rob van der Heij Sent: donderdag 18 juni 2009 9:19 To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Rules of Thumb In the early days of Linux on z/VM, we were using very slow CPUs so that 1-2 hrs on the other hardware meant 10-20 hrs of CPU on S/390. That made it very hard to compete and we told people to stay away from CPU-intensive workload. Today mainframe CPUs are as fast as the rest. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 ÿþD i t b e r i c h t i s v e r t r o u w e l i j k e n k a n g e h e i m e i n f o r m a t i e b e v a t t e n e n k e l b e s t e m d v o o r d e g e a d r e s s e e r d e . I n d i e n d i t b e r i c h t n i e t v o o r u i s b e s t e m d , v e r z o e k e n w i j u d i t o n m i d d e l l i j k a a n o n s t e m e l d e n e n h e t b e r i c h t t e v e r n i e t i g e n . A a n g e z i e n d e i n t e g r i t e i t v a n h e t b e r i c h t n i e t v e i l i g g e s t e l d i s m i d d e l s v e r z e n d i n g v i a i n t e r n e t , k a n A t o s O r i g i n n i e t a a n s p r a k e l i j k w o r d e n g e h o u d e n v o o r d e i n h o u d d a a r v a n . H o e w e l w i j o n s i n s p a n n e n e e n v i r u s v r i j n e t w e r k t e h a n t e r e n , g e v e n w i j g e e n e n k e l e g a r a n t i e d a t d i t b e r i c h t v i r u s v r i j i s , n o c h a a n v a a r d e n w i j e n i g e a a n s p r a k e l i j k h e i d v o o r d e m o g e l i j k e a a n w e z i g h e i d v a n e e n v i r u s i n d i t b e r i c h t . O p a l o n z e r e c h t s v e r h o u d i n g e n , a a n b i e d i n g e n e n o v e r e e n k o m s t e n w a a r o n d e r A t o s O r i g i n g o e d e r e n e n / o f d i e n s t e n l e v e r t z i j n m e t u i t s l u i t i n g v a n a l l e a n d e r e v o o r w a a r d e n d e L e v e r i n g s v o o r w a a r d e n v a n A t o s O r i g i n v a n t o e p a s s i n g . D e z e w o r d e n u o p a a n v r a a g d i r e c t k o s t e l o o s t o e g e z o n d e n . T h i s e - m a i l a n d t h e d o c u m e n t s a t t a c h e d a r e c o n f i d e n t i a l a n d i n t e n d e d s o l e l y f o r t h e a d d r e s s e e ; i t m a y a l s o b e p r i v i l e g e d . I f y o u r e c e i v e t h i s e - m a i l i n e r r o r , p l e a s e n o t i f y t h e s e n d e r i m m e d i a t e l y a n d d e s t r o y i t . A s i t s i n t e g r i t y c a n n o t b e s e c u r e d o n t h e I n t e r n e t , t h e A t o s O r i g i n g r o u p l i a b i l i t y c a n n o t b e t r i g g e r e d f o r t h e m e s s a g e c o n t e n t . A l t h o u g h t h e s e n d e r e n d e a v o u r s t o m a i n t a i n a c o m p u t e r v i r u s - f r e e n e t w o r k , t h e s e n d e r d o e s n o t w a r r a n t t h a t t h i s t r a n s m i s s i o n i s v i r u s - f r e e a n d w i l l n o t b e l i a b l e f o r a n y d a m a g e s r e s u l t i n g f r o m a n y v i r u s t r a n s m i t t e d . O n a l l o f f e r s a n d a g r e e m e n t s u n d e r w h i c h A t o s O r i g i n s u p p l i e s g o o d s a n d / o r s e r v i c e s o f w h a t e v e r n a t u r e , t h e T e r m s o f D e l i v e r y f r o m A t o s O r i g i n e x c l u s i v e l y a p p l y . T h e T e r m s o f D e l i v e r y s h a l l b e p r o m p t l y s u b m i t t e d t o y o u o n y o u r r e q u e s t . A t o s O r i g i n N e d e r l a n d B . V . / U t r e c h t K v K U t r e c h t 3 0 1 3 2 7 6 2
Re: FW: Rules of Thumb
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Bernie VK2KAD wrote: > For example, I know that Cognos for example is capable of running on zLinux > - but when I look at it's workload profile on existing mid-range hardware if > appears that it wouldn't be a very sociable guest. From practically idle > to 100% busy for 1-2 hours or more says this guy doesn't like to share his > toys and thus wouldn't be a very good candidate - or am I wrong?? Important question is how often it has this requirement and what other workload you have. If it's once a day and you have other workload fill in the remaining 22-23 hrs of capacity, it may be a great fit. On the fine level we talk about interleaving workload that has a mix of resource requirements so the system can run a few workloads at the same time without delaying either of them significantly (one uses the CPU while the other waits for I/O to complete). When your Cognos workload is CPU constrained, it would only combine well with workload that is for example I/O constrained. On the coarse level you talk about virtual server utilization. When each server is only busy during one hour of the day, you can fit 20 of them on the machine. Queueing theory shows that the more servers and resources you have, the better are your odds that not everyone will have their share at the same time. You need to collect usage data from the servers and applications that you want to consolidate, and analyze that to see if it fits. And probably do a proof of concept to compare your apples and oranges (a CPU second on Intel is not the same as a CPU second on System z). In the early days of Linux on z/VM, we were using very slow CPUs so that 1-2 hrs on the other hardware meant 10-20 hrs of CPU on S/390. That made it very hard to compete and we told people to stay away from CPU-intensive workload. Today mainframe CPUs are as fast as the rest. One reason this logic does not apply equally to other platforms is that the mainframe technology for sharing is more mature. -- Rob van der Heij Velocity Software http://www.velocitysoftware.com/ -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
