Re: websphere on zlinux?
I've been involved in some very successful implementations of WebSphere on Linux for zSeries. One is for a company that uses it for their external web site and another is for an internal application used for order entry. The order entry app gets over 700,000 hits a day from 50-60 order takers. It runs on a z800 IFL and most of the time uses less than 10% of the processor. As with anything, your mileage may vary, but if there is an existing application it is better to measure it over time to make sure it is a good fit. If it is under development, it can be stress tested with a load generator and then measured to see what the CPU load will be like. On Friday 29 August 2003 08:31 am, you wrote: > Does anyone have any experience using was on zlinux? Any comparisons with > other platforms? Any gotcha's to watch for? > > thx > > Lionel B. Dyck, Systems Software Lead > Kaiser Permanente Information Technology > 25 N. Via Monte Ave > Walnut Creek, Ca 94598 > > Phone: (925) 926-5332 (tie line 8/473-5332) > E-Mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sametime: (use Lotus Notes address) > AIM:lbdyck -- Rich Smrcina Sr. Systems Engineer Sytek Services, A Division of DSG Milwaukee, WI rsmrcina at wi.rr.com rsmrcina at dsgroup.com Catch the WAVV! Stay for Requirements and the Free for All! Update your S/390 skills in 4 days for a very reasonable price. WAVV 2004 in Chattanooga, TN April 30-May 4, 2004 For details see http://www.wavv.org
Re: websphere on zlinux?
Lionel, I support WebSphere environments on both zLinux (Test and Production) and Intel (Development). The only real gotcha is the CPU speed difference, as it relates to Java performance, that folks on this list are dealing with every day. WebSphere is a complete Java application, so all things WebSphere run slower on zSeries. I'd be happy to discuss specifics offline. Thanks, Hank Calzaretta Moore Wallace -Original Message- From: Lionel Dyck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 8:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: websphere on zlinux? Does anyone have any experience using was on zlinux? Any comparisons with other platforms? Any gotcha's to watch for? thx Lionel B. Dyck, Systems Software Lead Kaiser Permanente Information Technology 25 N. Via Monte Ave Walnut Creek, Ca 94598 Phone: (925) 926-5332 (tie line 8/473-5332) E-Mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sametime: (use Lotus Notes address) AIM:lbdyck
Re: websphere on zlinux?
> Does anyone have any experience using was on zlinux? A fair amount. It works about as well as it does on any other platform in terms of functionality. > Any > comparisons with > other platforms? It probably compares best with AIX or Solaris implementations in that it doesn't have some of the bomb-proof nature of the z/OS implementation. Programming is pretty much the same as for the Solaris/AIX environment, and the tools are pretty much the same. > Any gotcha's to watch for? It is *very* resource intensive. It also tends to have a very large working set, so tuning a supporting VM system can be quite complex. Also, you have to deal with the differences in numerical performance for the zSeries CPUs -- many WAS applications brought from other platforms tend to assume that CPU and floating point math are basically free to a good home, and tend to use LOTS of them, often needing additional processor power to support the same workloads. You may also need additional RAM to hold the working sets, or be prepared to dedicate a goodly chunk of disk to paging areas. There's a redbook on WAS on zLinux that covers a lot of this stuff in fair detail. Search for "WAS zLinux" on the IBM redbook site. -- db
Re: websphere on zlinux?
Rich, Do you typically 'stack' applications on a single default server on WebSphere or do you create multiple servers a a single virtual machine? If both, which performs the best for you? Thanks. Rich Smrcina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] om> cc: Sent by: Linux on Subject: Re: websphere on zlinux? 390 Port <[EMAIL PROTECTED] IST.EDU> 08/29/2003 08:57 AM Please respond to Linux on 390 Port I've been involved in some very successful implementations of WebSphere on Linux for zSeries. One is for a company that uses it for their external web site and another is for an internal application used for order entry. The order entry app gets over 700,000 hits a day from 50-60 order takers. It runs on a z800 IFL and most of the time uses less than 10% of the processor. As with anything, your mileage may vary, but if there is an existing application it is better to measure it over time to make sure it is a good fit. If it is under development, it can be stress tested with a load generator and then measured to see what the CPU load will be like. On Friday 29 August 2003 08:31 am, you wrote: > Does anyone have any experience using was on zlinux? Any comparisons with > other platforms? Any gotcha's to watch for? > > thx > > Lionel B. Dyck, Systems Software Lead > Kaiser Permanente Information Technology > 25 N. Via Monte Ave > Walnut Creek, Ca 94598 > > Phone: (925) 926-5332 (tie line 8/473-5332) > E-Mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sametime: (use Lotus Notes address) > AIM:lbdyck -- Rich Smrcina Sr. Systems Engineer Sytek Services, A Division of DSG Milwaukee, WI rsmrcina at wi.rr.com rsmrcina at dsgroup.com Catch the WAVV! Stay for Requirements and the Free for All! Update your S/390 skills in 4 days for a very reasonable price. WAVV 2004 in Chattanooga, TN April 30-May 4, 2004 For details see http://www.wavv.org
Re: websphere on zlinux?
Hi all, Our application staff are considering changing one of their large applications to Java on the mainframe. Can someone please answer the following questions. 1) What is the performance of running Java on USS on MVS?. 2) Is there any mainframe benchmark between running Java on MVS and on Linux? Kind Regards, Meganen Naidoo
Re: websphere on zlinux?
We've gone both ways and there are plusses and minuses. Keeping each production application in it's own WAS application server (in a single Linux instance) has the benefit of isolating applications such that a coding error or runaway query in one application only crashes the application server that it runs in. The java heap size for each application can also be more granularly fine tuned. On the other hand, using additional application servers has the drawback of a larger memory footprint. I was recently involved in a situation where we broke apart applications into separate application servers. I don't know that it performed any better, but it sure provided better stability. We've also heard from WAS support that additional application servers for production applications is the suggested way to go. Test systems shouldn't need this level of care, depending upon how carefully you wish to mimick production. I hope this helps. On Tuesday 02 September 2003 07:43 am, you wrote: > Rich, > > Do you typically 'stack' applications on a single default server on > WebSphere or do you create multiple servers a a single virtual machine? If > both, which performs the best for you? > > Thanks. > > > > > Rich Smrcina > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] om> cc: > Sent by: Linux onSubject: Re: websphere on > zlinux? 390 Port > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > IST.EDU> > > > 08/29/2003 08:57 > AM > Please respond to > Linux on 390 Port > > > > > > > I've been involved in some very successful implementations of WebSphere on > Linux for zSeries. One is for a company that uses it for their external > web > site and another is for an internal application used for order entry. > > The order entry app gets over 700,000 hits a day from 50-60 order takers. > It > runs on a z800 IFL and most of the time uses less than 10% of the > processor. > > As with anything, your mileage may vary, but if there is an existing > application it is better to measure it over time to make sure it is a good > fit. If it is under development, it can be stress tested with a load > generator and then measured to see what the CPU load will be like. > > On Friday 29 August 2003 08:31 am, you wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience using was on zlinux? Any comparisons > > with > > > other platforms? Any gotcha's to watch for? > > > > thx > > > > Lionel B. Dyck, Systems Software Lead > > Kaiser Permanente Information Technology > > 25 N. Via Monte Ave > > Walnut Creek, Ca 94598 > > > > Phone: (925) 926-5332 (tie line 8/473-5332) > > E-Mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sametime: (use Lotus Notes address) > > AIM:lbdyck -- Rich Smrcina Sr. Systems Engineer Sytek Services, A Division of DSG Milwaukee, WI rsmrcina at wi.rr.com rsmrcina at dsgroup.com Catch the WAVV! Stay for Requirements and the Free for All! Update your S/390 skills in 4 days for a very reasonable price. WAVV 2004 in Chattanooga, TN April 30-May 4, 2004 For details see http://www.wavv.org
Re: websphere on zlinux?
On Tue, 2003-09-02 at 08:22, Rich Smrcina wrote: > We've gone both ways and there are plusses and minuses. Keeping each > production application in it's own WAS application server (in a single Linux > instance) has the benefit of isolating applications such that a coding error > or runaway query in one application only crashes the application server that > it runs in. The java heap size for each application can also be more > granularly fine tuned. > > On the other hand, using additional application servers has the drawback of a > larger memory footprint. On the third hand, given that, with typical WAS applications, the overhead of Linux (about 40MB) is small compared to the WebSphere overhead (what, about 200MB, usually?), breaking them into separate virtual machines isn't necessarily a silly choice either. Adam
Re: websphere on zlinux?
Thanks Rich. I'm in the process of load testing several applications using both scenarios. Trying to find optimum memory configurations and learning what to do and not do. I have found that when using multiple servers on a single instance, it's a good idea to not start all servers at once and walk away. It seems to take all available memory on the machine and start shutting down servers once it hits the wall. Thanks again. Rich Smrcina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] om> cc: Sent by: Linux on Subject: Re: websphere on zlinux? 390 Port <[EMAIL PROTECTED] IST.EDU> 09/02/2003 08:22 AM Please respond to Linux on 390 Port We've gone both ways and there are plusses and minuses. Keeping each production application in it's own WAS application server (in a single Linux instance) has the benefit of isolating applications such that a coding error or runaway query in one application only crashes the application server that it runs in. The java heap size for each application can also be more granularly fine tuned. On the other hand, using additional application servers has the drawback of a larger memory footprint. I was recently involved in a situation where we broke apart applications into separate application servers. I don't know that it performed any better, but it sure provided better stability. We've also heard from WAS support that additional application servers for production applications is the suggested way to go. Test systems shouldn't need this level of care, depending upon how carefully you wish to mimick production. I hope this helps. On Tuesday 02 September 2003 07:43 am, you wrote: > Rich, > > Do you typically 'stack' applications on a single default server on > WebSphere or do you create multiple servers a a single virtual machine? If > both, which performs the best for you? > > Thanks. > > > > > Rich Smrcina > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] om> cc: > Sent by: Linux onSubject: Re: websphere on > zlinux? 390 Port > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > IST.EDU> > > > 08/29/2003 08:57 > AM > Please respond to > Linux on 390 Port > > > > > > > I've been involved in some very successful implementations of WebSphere on > Linux for zSeries. One is for a company that uses it for their external > web > site and another is for an internal application used for order entry. > > The order entry app gets over 700,000 hits a day from 50-60 order takers. > It > runs on a z800 IFL and most of the time uses less than 10% of the > processor. > > As with anything, your mileage may vary, but if there is an existing > application it is better to measure it over time to make sure it is a good > fit. If it is under development, it can be stress tested with a load > generator and then measured to see what the CPU load will be like. > > On Friday 29 August 2003 08:31 am, you wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience using was on zlinux? Any comparisons > > with > > > other platforms? Any gotcha's to watch for? > > > > thx > > > > Lionel B. Dyck, Systems Software Lead > > Kaiser Permanente Information Technology > > 25 N. Via Monte Ave > > Walnut Creek, Ca 94598 > > > > Phone: (925) 926-5332 (tie line 8/473-5332) > > E-Mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sametime: (use Lotus Notes address) > > AIM:lbdyck -- Rich Smrcina Sr. Systems Engineer Sytek Services, A Division of DSG Milwaukee, WI rsmrcina at wi.rr.com rsmrcina at dsgroup.com Catch the WAVV! Stay for Requirements and the Free for All! Update your S/390 skills in 4 days for a very reasonable price. WAVV 2004 in Chattanooga, TN April 30-May 4, 2004 For details see http://www.wavv.org
Re: websphere on zlinux?
That certainly makes sense, there is one customer that stages the application server startup. On Tuesday 02 September 2003 08:30 am, you wrote: > Thanks Rich. I'm in the process of load testing several applications using > both scenarios. Trying to find optimum memory configurations > and learning what to do and not do. I have found that when using multiple > servers on a single instance, it's a good idea to not start all servers > at once and walk away. It seems to take all available memory on the > machine and start shutting down servers once it hits the wall. > > Thanks again. > > > > > > > > Rich Smrcina > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] om> cc: > Sent by: Linux onSubject: Re: websphere on > zlinux? 390 Port > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > IST.EDU> > > > 09/02/2003 08:22 > AM > Please respond to > Linux on 390 Port > > > > > > > We've gone both ways and there are plusses and minuses. Keeping each > production application in it's own WAS application server (in a single > Linux > instance) has the benefit of isolating applications such that a coding > error > or runaway query in one application only crashes the application server > that > it runs in. The java heap size for each application can also be more > granularly fine tuned. > > On the other hand, using additional application servers has the drawback of > a > larger memory footprint. > > I was recently involved in a situation where we broke apart applications > into > separate application servers. I don't know that it performed any better, > but it sure provided better stability. We've also heard from WAS support > that additional application servers for production applications is the > suggested way to go. > > Test systems shouldn't need this level of care, depending upon how > carefully > you wish to mimick production. > > I hope this helps. > > On Tuesday 02 September 2003 07:43 am, you wrote: > > Rich, > > > > Do you typically 'stack' applications on a single default server on > > WebSphere or do you create multiple servers a a single virtual machine? > > If > > > both, which performs the best for you? > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > Rich Smrcina > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] om> cc: > > Sent by: Linux onSubject: Re: websphere on > > zlinux? 390 Port > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > IST.EDU> > > > > > > 08/29/2003 08:57 > > AM > > Please respond to > > Linux on 390 Port > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been involved in some very successful implementations of WebSphere > > on > > > Linux for zSeries. One is for a company that uses it for their external > > web > > site and another is for an internal application used for order entry. > > > > The order entry app gets over 700,000 hits a day from 50-60 order takers. > > It > > runs on a z800 IFL and most of the time uses less than 10% of the > > processor. > > > > As with anything, your mileage may vary, but if there is an existing > > application it is better to measure it over time to make sure it is a > > good > > > fit. If it is under development, it can be stress tested with a load > > generator and then measured to see what the CPU load will be like. > > > > On Friday 29 August 2003 08:31 am, you wrote: > > > Does anyone have any experience using was on zlinux? Any comparisons > > > > with > > > > > other platforms? Any gotcha's to watch for? > > > > > > thx > > > > > > Lionel B. Dyck, Systems Software Lead > > > Kaiser Permanente Information Technology > > > 25 N. Via Monte Ave > > > Walnut Creek, Ca 94598 > > > > > > Phone: (925) 926-5332 (tie line 8/473-5332) > > > E-Mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sametime: (use Lotus Notes address) > > > AIM:lbdyck -- Rich Smrcina Sr. Systems Engineer Sytek Services, A Division of DSG Milwaukee, WI rsmrcina at wi.rr.com rsmrcina at dsgroup.com Catch the WAVV! Stay for Requirements and the Free for All! Update your S/390 skills in 4 days for a very reasonable price. WAVV 2004 in Chattanooga, TN April 30-May 4, 2004 For details see http://www.wavv.org
Re: websphere on zlinux?
Interesting point. Each application server goes about 60MB, but each application server has a seperate java heap (which is configurable, but the application must fit in it). But even additional Linux virtual machines would have this overhead, since it would have the WAS base plus an application plus the java heap. On Tuesday 02 September 2003 08:25 am, you wrote: > On Tue, 2003-09-02 at 08:22, Rich Smrcina wrote: > > We've gone both ways and there are plusses and minuses. Keeping each > > production application in it's own WAS application server (in a single > > Linux instance) has the benefit of isolating applications such that a > > coding error or runaway query in one application only crashes the > > application server that it runs in. The java heap size for each > > application can also be more granularly fine tuned. > > > > On the other hand, using additional application servers has the drawback > > of a larger memory footprint. > > On the third hand, given that, with typical WAS applications, the > overhead of Linux (about 40MB) is small compared to the WebSphere > overhead (what, about 200MB, usually?), breaking them into separate > virtual machines isn't necessarily a silly choice either. > > Adam -- Rich Smrcina Sr. Systems Engineer Sytek Services, A Division of DSG Milwaukee, WI rsmrcina at wi.rr.com rsmrcina at dsgroup.com Catch the WAVV! Stay for Requirements and the Free for All! Update your S/390 skills in 4 days for a very reasonable price. WAVV 2004 in Chattanooga, TN April 30-May 4, 2004 For details see http://www.wavv.org
Re: websphere on zlinux?
On Tue, 2003-09-02 at 08:54, Rich Smrcina wrote: > But even additional Linux virtual machines would have this overhead, since it > would have the WAS base plus an application plus the java heap. Well, sure. I'm saying that Linux overhead plus WAS overhead is not very much larger than WAS overhead by itself, and it might give you more isolation and stability. On the other hand, separate WAS instances in the same virtual machine might give you all the isolation and stability you needed too. I'm sure that, as Bill Bitner likes to say, it depends. Adam
