Re: [LAD] unsubscribe question

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 25 April 2007, Frank Eickhoff wrote:
>hello, i would like to unsubscribe from the mailinglist, however since
>there where changes in the administration i receive daily mails, that
>was different before. but i dont understand where i can change this by
>myself.
>thank you,
>frank
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Do you not see the two links at the bottom of every message?  One does his own 
list management chores at the last one, or should be able to.  If like me, 
they'll have to send you a fresh copy of the password, my aged wet ram is way 
too volatile to remember all that for 43 lists. :)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
In Hollywood, if you don't have happiness, you send out for it.
-- Rex Reed
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Re: [LAD] [OT] LinuxSampler and GPL - some clarifications

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 27 January 2008, Marek wrote:
>On Jan 27, 2008 10:56 PM, Forest Bond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 10:23:21PM +0100, Marek wrote:
>> > On Jan 27, 2008 9:40 PM, Forest Bond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 08:14:29PM +0100, Marek wrote:
>> >>> If so then this is FUD for you indeed. If you are a copyright holder
>> >>> then you should know how the GPL protects your work.
>> >>
>> >> Agreed.  But your interpretation of the GPL is one that I've certainly
>> >> never seen.
>> >
>> > You have seen it now :)
>>
>> Well, your interpretation differs greatly from that of the FSF (as well as
>> the vast majority of the GPL camp).  I wish you luck evangelizing it.
>
>Define vast majority of the GPL camp. Give me the facts, give me the links.
>
>Marek

Tell ya what, Marek.  Take your proposal to the FSF.  Don't take the word of 
people who have actually read the GPL's words for it, so get it from the 
horses mouth so to speak.  You obviously aren't about to believe any of us 
anyway so quit harassing these good folks over it.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Consultants are mystical people who ask a company for a number and then
give it back to them.
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Re: [LAD] [OT] LinuxSampler and GPL - some clarifications

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 29 January 2008, Forest Bond wrote:
>On Tue, Jan 29, 2008 at 02:57:49PM +, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
>> If you don't put a sock in it fairly quickly, then I'm afraid I'm going to
>> have to stab you.
>
>Geez, easy, keep it somewhat civil...
>
Yeah, back in my amiga days we used to threaten to send Vino, Tony and Luigi 
over with greetings in violin cases. ;-)

>-Forest



-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Q:  Why is Christmas just like a day at the office?
A:  You do all of the work and the fat guy in the suit
gets all the credit.
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Re: [LAD] [ot] how to produce ^m ?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 July 2008, Julien Claassen wrote:
>Hi!
>   Does anyone know which character exactly ^m is and how I can reproduce it
> as a character in my program code. Unfortunitely I get it from the outside
> and have to deal with it.
>   Kindest regards
> Julien
>
That is the usual convention for displaying a carriage return, a chr$(13), used 
as the end of line marker in non-unix-ish systems.  unix-ish systems have 
nearly always used a linefeed, a chr$(10), for the EOL character.  And M$ 
systems use both just to try and be different. 30+ years ago most printers 
needed both.

>
>Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles)
>
> FIND MY WEB-PROJECT AT: 
>http://ltsb.sourceforge.net
>the Linux TextBased Studio guide
>=== AND MY PERSONAL PAGES AT: ===
>http://www.juliencoder.de
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Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Delta: We're Amtrak with wings.-- David Letterman
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Re: [LAD] OT: alternative fuel for cars [was: Re : Car engine sound emulation for future electic cars . ideas ?]

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 05 August 2008, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
>On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 09:24:05PM +0700, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>> Exploding/burning water has been done and it is definitely absolutely
>> possible. If after watching the videos you still think it is impossible
>> that  so many people from different parts of the world are able to
>> replicate the circuit and literally explode water then I would love to
>> hear your opinion as it will give me another topic for my blog.
>
>Well, a nice topic would be how we've arrived at the quite
>alarming situation that there are people who believe something
>because they've seen a video of it, and who have apparently lost
>all sense of even the most elementary criticism. Act like that,
>and you'll be the cherished victim of marketeers, preachers,
>dictators, and all other sort of confidence tricksters.
>
>To what level of stupidity have are we falling ?
>
>Ciao,

First off, this whole thread is absolutely off topic, second off, there seems 
to be a serious gap between what some folks believe and TANSTAAFL.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
"Your stupidity, Allen, is simply not up to par."
-- Dave Mack ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

"Yours is."
-- Allen Gwinn ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), in alt.flame
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Re: [LAD] [OT] vector drawing software

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 08 August 2008, Bengt Gördén wrote:
>Den Friday 08 August 2008 03.52.47 skrev Thomas Vecchione:
>> 3D Cad tools unfortuanatly I haven't found any I particularly like among
>> the open source projects.  Personally I am using QCad for 2D and Sketchup
>> for 3D.  I use Blender for organic modleing and rendering though.
>
>I'm one of those Linux-only persons. Is there a Sketchup for Linux or is it
>just Mac and Windows as the Sketchup-page says?
>
The newest wine-1.0 can run the windows version of sketchup-6 on nvidia video 
cards using the nvidia binary blob drivers.  I have not been able to make it 
work on my older ATI 9200SE card, the screens workspace isn't drawn, and 
generally contains random data stolen from other screens.  Apparently it 
needs some sort of 3d support that is not in the current radeon driver for 
RV280 chipsets.

I ordered an X1650 Pro, but it arrived defective yesterday, my box won't even 
post when its plugged in. :(

>/bengan

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.
-- Minna Antrim, "Naked Truth and Veiled Allusions"
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Re: [LAD] [OT] vector drawing software

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 08 August 2008, Emanuel Rumpf wrote:
>2008/8/7 Thorsten Wilms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> However, for precise geometrical shapes, Blender is the wrong tool. It
>> can be done to some degree, but it is just painful compared to a decent
>> CAD tool.
>
>Here's a comunity, that tries to extend Blender for these
>requirements. (Some Scripts are available)
>http://blender-archi.tuxfamily.org/Main_Page
>
>
>BRL-CAD
>http://brlcad.org/
>Article:
>http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/node/1633

The article is dated, there have been 2 releases since.  Unforch for me, the 
last release is for IA64 linux only, not x86-32.  I already have 7.10, so 
downloaded the srcs to see if it will build on x86-32.

>
>Some upcoming OS CAD projects:
>
>avoCADo
>http://avocado-cad.sourceforge.net/

Interesting, downloaded it.

>FreeCAD
>http://juergen-riegel.net/FreeCAD/Docu/index.php?title=Main_Page

Big pre-alpha notices on download page.

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Maintence window broken
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Re: [LAD] Wireless Electricity vs audio quality

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 25 August 2008, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 11:32 +0200, Arnold Krille wrote:
>> > I have doubt about the effect it will have on electrical equipment due
>> > to static RF as we are not dealing with rf signals in this case.
>>
>> Electrical equipment is not only sensible to the range you might be
>> referring here as radio frequencies. Electrical equipment is sensible to
>> _all kinds_ of frequencies as long as they come as electromagnetic waves.
>> And if they "tune" the energy-transportation-frequencies to the "exact"
>> value of metals (metals have a broad band of frequencies possible afaik),
>> they still also reach the frequencies of the metal in ad-converter, cpu,
>> memory, hard-disk, which all will pick up energy. Sounds like fun :-)
>
>EMF is distorted frequencies so in this case as the resonance is very
>specific to the frequency domain it should be controllable and hence not
>affect audio or electrical equipment with discharge or leakage.

Patrick, you are showing your lack of understanding of this phenom and how it 
works.  The assumption is that the load is resonant at the frequency used, so 
it very efficiently absorbs whatever magnetic fields there may be AT THAT 
FREQUENCY.

By that definition, the most efficient transfer will occur when there is no 
distortion, since all distortion products are either harmonically related, or 
due to intermodulation and aliasing effects.  By that same definition, these 
distortion products will not be well absorbed by the resonant circuit simply 
because they are not at the operating frequency.

We won't discuss at length the distortion products created by a non-linear 
load (such as rectifying it for DC power) effects, but they will certainly 
exist in any situation involving a non-linear load.  Even the 120 hz 
flickering of an incandescent lamp would be measurable given sensitive enough 
measuring gear.  And it would effect the transfer efficiency because of it 
when you were looking to get that last .001%.

This discussion is off topic, and occasionally hillarious due to the BS 
content.  And I do enjoy a good BS session from time to time.  Usually over a 
6 pack of suds, but that is another time & place.

Now, a discussion about pulseaudio OTOH, would be welcome, cuz I can't make it 
work, it refuses to recognize my emu10k1 driven Audigy2 Value card at all.

-- 
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
I have a very good DENTAL PLAN.  Thank you.
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Re: [LAD] Wireless Electricity vs audio quality

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 25 August 2008, Dan Mills wrote:
>On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 09:38 -0400, Fred Gleason wrote:
>> I can sure vouch for the truth of this.  Been in enough high-power
>> broadcasting plants (>=50 kW) at both MW and FM frequencies to see it lots
>> of times.  It can be a real bugbear, especially with consumer or even
>> semi-pro gear.
>
>Even some seriously pro gear gets it horribly wrong on occasion, and
>designing it right is a pain as what works at 500Khz, generally does not
>at 1Ghz and stray resonances can scupper even the best filters over that
>sort of bandwidth.
>
>Now it can be done, as (at the third attempt) I have a multichannel
>audio board that just works even in the presence of significant power at
>AM broadcast, FM Broadcast, 900Mhz and 2.4Ghz, but it took some doing
>(The hardware is likely to go for well over £500 per card, and about a
>third of that is parts cost).
>
>We will gloss over the AM site I had co located with a bloody search
>radar on an army base that was FUN to get to work right.
>
As is a modern digital satellite receiver or a tv stl in the 2.1Gig band, when 
its 17 air miles from a 50 megawatter at the local airport.  An analog rx 
shows a black dot occasionally, but the digital stuff upchucks all over 
itself.  The filters to fix it are a bit over a kilobuck each.

>Wireless power transmission by low frequency resonant coupling **IS** a
>useful trick in some circumstances (I have seen it used to charge hand
>lamps for use in explosive atmospheres for example (Well over ten years
>back)), and in intels case could be used to for example power a wireless
>mouse or charge a phone, but you can bet there would be a handshake
>between the device and the charging pad prior to RF being applied. It
>will never work well over any distance as the inverse square law applies
>once you are out of the near field of the aerial (A tuned loop from what
>I can see - also very old technology), this distance depends on both
>wavelength and loop dimensions, so making the loop smaller will not
>improve things).
>
>It is not a viable replacement for a power cord for anything that needs
>more then a watt or so or that is reasonable mobile, but I could maybe
>see it for things that can be placed on some sort of pad (And yes, RF
>pickup will be a real and serious problem).
>
>Regards, Dan.
>
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Cheers, Gene
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
It is indeed desirable to be well descended, but the glory belongs to
our ancestors.
-- Plutarch
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Re: [LAD] joining the fun...

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 26 August 2008, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>Robin Gareus wrote:
>>> As a member, contributor and advocate for Linux Audio for the past 10
>>> years I am also interested in discussing the above issues with other
>>> members of the list as I think there is a lot to be learned and
>>> possibly advanced.
>>
>> you're right: there's no stupid questions. IMHO as linux-audio-devs
>> we're not really qualified to discuss libre-energy questions; Thanks for
>> sharing though; it provoked few good responses from Pieter, Fons and
>> others that I liked and learned from.
>
>Personally I don't really care for Fons's comments of this subject. He
>is clearly just trying to bait me. If others find that entertaining then
>they better watch out if they ever have to meet me in person. I can
>certainly hold a grudge if I choose to.
>
>However, I do think there is a bit of stagnation on this list over the
>past year or so. It seems that we have reached a plateau currently where
>there is not much to discuss. If anything my intention is to kickstart
>some discussions that could lead to more interesting developments...

To redirect some of this energy, how about trying to figure out pulseaudio for 
the common user, who may want to do uncommon things.  I have 2 audio systems 
in this box, and PA refuses to recognize the Audigy2 (emu10k1 driven) card I 
use for everything BUT skype.  If I want sound at all, I have to excise as 
much of it as kde will allow in order that my sound work at all.

-- 
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
I'd rather be led to hell than managed to heavan.
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Re: [LAD] Guide to Linux Sound APIs

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 29 September 2008, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>On Sun, 28.09.08 15:36, David Cournapeau ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:14 AM, victor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > There is also pulseaudio, which is quite simple to program
>> > and use in simple apps.
>>
>> What's the percentage of linux systems which have pulse audio ? I know
>> I don't on my system, and it is a very popular one (ubuntu).
>
>Almost all distributions at least ship it. And all the major ones
>enable it by default. Fedora does, Ubuntu does, OpenSuse does.
>
>Lennart

Yes, they enable it, but its not ready for prime time, so it often winds up 
being disabled in order to get any sound at all.  I have one such system 
myself.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
I didn't get sophisticated -- I just got tired.  But maybe that's what
sophisticated is -- being tired.
-- Rita Gain
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Re: [LAD] Guide to Linux Sound APIs

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 29 September 2008, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>On Sun, 28.09.08 09:38, Paul Davis ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>> > Also, I guess it depends on how you upgrade, because my workstation is
>> > 8.04, which is upgraded every year or so for 2 years and a half now,
>> > and I don't have pulseaudio. One of the package I wan't to add sound
>> > support for is for science mostly, and many people are still using
>> > Ubuntu Dapper, Fedora 3, etc...
>> >
>> > So it does not look like pulseaudio is that great if you want to
>> > support various linux and have very little needs for audio.
>>
>> As Lennart tried to make reasonably clear, the primary goal of
>> PulseAudio is NOT to act as a new API, but to act as a new
>> *infrastructure* that supports existing APIs transparently.
>> I am sure that he would be happy if it eventually takes over the world
>> and everybody writes apps using its API, but that doesn't appear to be
>> the goal right now.
>
>The reason why I don't ask application developers at this time to
>adopt the native PA API is that it is a relatively complex API since
>all calls are asynchronous. It's comprehensive and not redundant, but
>simply too complex for everyone but the most experienced.
>
>Lennart

I believe (no docs to confirm or deny this) it also is hard coded to pick the 
first device it finds as the default output device.  Since I relegated the 
mobo's el simple chipset for use by skype et all, then installed an Audigy2 
for the real utility audio.  But PA refuses to use the Audigy2.  So it gets 
nuked.  And then sound Just Works(TM).

I'd complain, but there seems to be no path to the actual developers other 
than Bugzilla, and my Bugzilla entries have been "won't fix"ed.  If there is 
no path from the user who finds his system crippled, leaving him no choice 
but to nuke as much as he can in order to get any sound.  That of course is 
not conducive to actually getting it fixed.

Fix that, so there is a working dialog path back from the user to the 
developer, and maybe it can be made to work.  As it is, the documentation on 
it is non-existent, and we the users feel like we're battling with M$, a 
generally futile endeavor, and that is gonna lead to a lot of profanity & 
name calling.  This is after all, linux, where choice is a talking point.

I'm deliberately trying to be civil, but this is as civil as I can manage 
after the treatment I've received when I fussed about it.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Practical people would be more practical if they would take a little
more time for dreaming.
-- J. P. McEvoy

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Re: [LAD] Guide to Linux Sound APIs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
>Gene Heskett:
>> Fix that, so there is a working dialog path back from the user to
>> the developer, and maybe it can be made to work.  As it is, the
>> documentation on it is non-existent, and we the users feel like
>> we're battling with M$, a generally futile endeavor, and that is
>> gonna lead to a lot of profanity & name calling.  This is after
>> all, linux, where choice is a talking point.
>
>Hi Gene, I think that the complaint should be aimed at distributions,
>really. If they choose to ship foo they should make sure it works.
>Which they tend to do to some (large) extent.
>
In the case of Fedora, no, the buck stops there, and I'm made to be the 
bad-ass.  It looks to me as if they are deliberately shielding the 
developers, or maybe they are locked in a closet off the lunch room living on 
scraps?

I dunno.  What I did come away with was that I was on my own, and that PA 
simply ignored the 8 line stanza in my modprobe.conf that makes it all Just 
Work when PA is prevented from screwing with things.

Without any meaningful docs on how to go about configuring it, if indeed it is 
configurable, the easiest thing to do is remove as much of it as possible 
without nukeing kde itself.

>In the past all of us had to realize that the minute we wanted to
>deviate from what a distribution considered to be a "standard system"
>(like in your case 2 sound devices) we were pretty much on our own.

Yes, that is a given.  But in order to do this intelligently, there must be 
docs of the 'this does that effect' in existence.  Apparently there are none 
or URL's would have been offered.

>I might add that the ensuing research is only sometimes painful. Usually
>it is just a hell of a ride, isn't it :)

Sometimes it can be quite educational in which case people like me become the 
help desk others are looking for, and I do that where I can.  Other times, 
and PA is a heck of a good example, it is frustrating to the point of saying 
to hell with it.
 
>So I think there is a huge demand for more and better integration on
>the distribution side, for user tools to make not-so-standard stuff
>just work as well. Which is A Lot Of Work, right? We'll get there,
>slowly, I'm sure.
>
Probably, and at about the same pace as NM moves, which is glacial.  Dumbassed 
typo's fixing takes a year to make it from patch submission to distro 
included.  That, when it effects 90% of the users, should be a week.  Max.

>Wolfgang
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Get forgiveness now -- tomorrow you may no longer feel guilty.
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Re: [LAD] Guide to Linux Sound APIs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>On Mon, 29.09.08 14:32, Gene Heskett ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>> >> As Lennart tried to make reasonably clear, the primary goal of
>> >> PulseAudio is NOT to act as a new API, but to act as a new
>> >> *infrastructure* that supports existing APIs transparently.
>> >> I am sure that he would be happy if it eventually takes over the world
>> >> and everybody writes apps using its API, but that doesn't appear to be
>> >> the goal right now.
>> >
>> >The reason why I don't ask application developers at this time to
>> >adopt the native PA API is that it is a relatively complex API since
>> >all calls are asynchronous. It's comprehensive and not redundant, but
>> >simply too complex for everyone but the most experienced.
>> >
>> >Lennart
>>
>> I believe (no docs to confirm or deny this) it also is hard coded to pick
>> the first device it finds as the default output device.  Since I relegated
>> the mobo's el simple chipset for use by skype et all, then installed an
>> Audigy2 for the real utility audio.  But PA refuses to use the Audigy2. 
>> So it gets nuked.  And then sound Just Works(TM).
>
>You can move any active stream on-the-fly to a different device. Just
>right-click on it in pavucontrol. PA will then remember for later.
>
>Also, you can easily make a different device default via paucontrol, too.

What is pavucontrol?  It was never, ever, part of the kde menu's on this F8, 
KDE-3.5.9 equipt x86 box.  The tool may well work as advertised, but first it 
has to be found before it can be used.

>> I'd complain, but there seems to be no path to the actual developers other
>> than Bugzilla, and my Bugzilla entries have been "won't fix"ed.  If there
>> is no path from the user who finds his system crippled, leaving him no
>> choice but to nuke as much as he can in order to get any sound.  That of
>> course is not conducive to actually getting it fixed.
>
>rhbz? Ids?
>
>If it's not rhbz or PA bts I won't get notice of it.

That is part of the problem, if this is a feedback path, this is the first 
mention of it that I have noticed. Actual URL's please, my acronym translator 
needs a new dictionary. :)

>> Fix that, so there is a working dialog path back from the user to the
>> developer, and maybe it can be made to work.  As it is, the documentation
>> on it is non-existent, and we the users feel like we're battling with M$,
>> a generally futile endeavor, and that is gonna lead to a lot of profanity
>> & name calling.  This is after all, linux, where choice is a talking
>> point.
>
>Actaully there is quite a bit of documentation available. See
>http://pulseaudio.org. Developer docs are here:
>http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/pulseaudio/doxygen/

I will mark this message as important, and check it out as I build another box 
to replace this one early next week.  Thanks for the URL.

>Sure, there can always be more documentation but quite frankly PA
>isn't that bad in this area.
>
>Lennart



-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the
systematic organisation of hatreds.
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Re: [LAD] Guide to Linux Sound APIs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
>Gene Heskett:
>> Probably, and at about the same pace as NM moves, which is glacial.
>>  Dumbassed typo's fixing takes a year to make it from patch
>> submission to distro included.  That, when it effects 90% of the
>> users, should be a week.  Max.
>
>True. What is "NM"?

Network Manager

>Wolfgang
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-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
"I teleported home one night
With Ron and Sid and Meg.
Ron stole Meggie's heart away
And I got Sidney's leg."

- A poem about matter transference beams. 
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Re: [LAD] Guide to Linux Sound APIs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>On Tue, 30.09.08 11:28, Gene Heskett ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>> >> I believe (no docs to confirm or deny this) it also is hard coded to
>> >> pick the first device it finds as the default output device.  Since I
>> >> relegated the mobo's el simple chipset for use by skype et all, then
>> >> installed an Audigy2 for the real utility audio.  But PA refuses to use
>> >> the Audigy2. So it gets nuked.  And then sound Just Works(TM).
>> >
>> >You can move any active stream on-the-fly to a different device. Just
>> >right-click on it in pavucontrol. PA will then remember for later.
>> >
>> >Also, you can easily make a different device default via paucontrol, too.
>>
>> What is pavucontrol?  It was never, ever, part of the kde menu's on this
>> F8, KDE-3.5.9 equipt x86 box.  The tool may well work as advertised, but
>> first it has to be found before it can be used.
>
>It is available in the GNOME menus AFAIR. I do not maintain the Fedora
>KDE packages and I have no idea how well or bad PA is integrated in KDE.
>
>> >> I'd complain, but there seems to be no path to the actual developers
>> >> other than Bugzilla, and my Bugzilla entries have been "won't fix"ed. 
>> >> If there is no path from the user who finds his system crippled,
>> >> leaving him no choice but to nuke as much as he can in order to get any
>> >> sound.  That of course is not conducive to actually getting it fixed.
>> >
>> >rhbz? Ids?
>> >
>> >If it's not rhbz or PA bts I won't get notice of it.
>>
>> That is part of the problem, if this is a feedback path, this is the first
>> mention of it that I have noticed. Actual URL's please, my acronym
>> translator needs a new dictionary. :)
>
>rhbz = Red Hat Bugzilla (i.e. where you are supposed to report a bug
>if you found one in Fedora, http://bugzilla.redhat.com)
>
Which is where I filed the first report, and got a "won't fix" answer.  I 
don't recall the bz number atm.

>pa bts = PulseAudio Bug Tracker (i.e. where you are suppoed to report
>a bug if you found one in PulseAudio,
> http://pulseaudio.org/wiki/Community#PatchesBugsTranslations)

Humm, is doesn't work considered a bug? :)

>Lennart



-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
"I teleported home one night
With Ron and Sid and Meg.
Ron stole Meggie's heart away
And I got Sidney's leg."

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Re: [LAD] Guide to Linux Sound APIs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>On Tue, 30.09.08 11:19, Gene Heskett ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>> >> we're battling with M$, a generally futile endeavor, and that is
>> >> gonna lead to a lot of profanity & name calling.  This is after
>> >> all, linux, where choice is a talking point.
>> >
>> >Hi Gene, I think that the complaint should be aimed at distributions,
>> >really. If they choose to ship foo they should make sure it works.
>> >Which they tend to do to some (large) extent.
>>
>> In the case of Fedora, no, the buck stops there, and I'm made to be the
>> bad-ass.  It looks to me as if they are deliberately shielding the
>> developers, or maybe they are locked in a closet off the lunch room living
>> on scraps?
>
>This is utter nonsense.
>
>There are probably no companies that are more open about what their
>developers do than Red Hat. Most of us have blogs where it is very
>simple to follow what we do. And most of the time they are syndicated
>all around the net. Almost all our development happens upstream and
>can be followed in git repos and stuff. We attend conferences where we
>explain what is going on -- and a lot of them. I post regularly on
>mailing lists like this one. We hang around on IRC almost our entire
>work time.
>
>If you call us shielded off then I wonder what you'd call everyone
>else.
>
>> I dunno.  What I did come away with was that I was on my own, and that PA
>> simply ignored the 8 line stanza in my modprobe.conf that makes it all
>> Just Work when PA is prevented from screwing with things.
>
>ALSA device indexes are not stable anymore, they depend on the driver
>initialization order during boot time which is not deterministic
>anymore, since this happens in parallel now.

Which explains that, thanks.

>That's why PA ignores 
>them and uses HAL UDIs for identifying audio devices instead. (I
>assume that you are referring to the device indexes when you talk
>about modprobe.conf).

Essentially, yes.  Although I don't recall that randomness has ever reared it 
head here, running F8, and always a bleeding edge kernel, 2.6.27-rc7-4 ATM.

Can modprobe.conf be trained to use these HAL UDI's?

>> Without any meaningful docs on how to go about configuring it, if indeed
>> it is configurable, the easiest thing to do is remove as much of it as
>> possible without nukeing kde itself.
>
>There are quite a bit of docs out there. Just check out
>http://pulseaudio.org/wiki/Documentation.
>
>> >In the past all of us had to realize that the minute we wanted to
>> >deviate from what a distribution considered to be a "standard system"
>> >(like in your case 2 sound devices) we were pretty much on our own.
>>
>> Yes, that is a given.  But in order to do this intelligently, there must
>> be docs of the 'this does that effect' in existence.  Apparently there are
>> none or URL's would have been offered.

And now they have been.  This msg marked important so kmail won't expire it, 
and I'll certainly check them out when I get the video's poor performance in 
hand.  The R600 ATI chipset support has no acceleration written yet.

>How would you like to have them offered? Maybe home delivered as printed
>books? Would that suit you?

Don't be silly.  Just a simple 'man pulseaudio' should bring up a URL or two 
at the bottom for questions not answered above in the man pages.

>Have you ever tried to go to "pulseaudio.org" if you had a question?
>Have you ever tried this thing called "Google"? It's a so called
>"search engine" that helps you find things when you don't know where
>to look. It's pretty hot stuff!

ISTR I did wind up there once, and it required I setup yet another account, 
complete with passwords etc before I could post.  I must have 30 of them 
things now & the wall is covered with cryptic postits I can no longer 
remember what site the noted username & password belong to.  CRS reigns 
supreme for disagreeable tasks.

As for google, the most common advice I got from there was to nuke it.
Now I'm starting all over with a new motherboard, with a much better 8 channel 
audio system, so I might retire the Creative SB0400, Audigy2 and forget about 
skype & see if I can make it now work.  vz has all the other servers blocked 
anyway, so I can never get a confirmation email from any of them except 
skype, and as that was 2 years ago, I expect its history now. vz can't stand 
the competition I guess.

>> >So I think there is a huge demand for more and better integration on
>> >the distribution side, for user tools to

Re: [LAD] Guide to Linux Sound APIs

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 September 2008, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
>Lennart Poettering:
>> On Tue, 30.09.08 11:28, Gene Heskett ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>
>wrote:
>> > >You can move any active stream on-the-fly to a different device.
>> > > Just right-click on it in pavucontrol. PA will then remember
>> > > for later.
>> > >
>> > >Also, you can easily make a different device default via
>> > > paucontrol, too.
>
>Gene, can I say that you want to make sure to really understand what
>Lennart says here? 

ATM, I have to take your word for it Wolfgang.  I just replaced the 
motherboard, memory and video in this box, and audio is about 4th down on the 
need to fix list for the next day or so.

>The power pavucontrol gives you as an audio user is 
>massive. Stuff like setting devices for live streams of applications
>used to be buried deep deep down. pulseaudio provides a view of your
>sound devices and sound sources that was simply not there before. It
>provides what most people want, actually, only that ...
>
>> > What is pavucontrol?  It was never, ever, part of the kde menu's
>> > on this F8, KDE-3.5.9 equipt x86 box.  The tool may well work as
>> > advertised, but first it has to be found before it can be used.
>>
>> It is available in the GNOME menus AFAIR. I do not maintain the
>> Fedora KDE packages and I have no idea how well or bad PA is
>> integrated in KDE.
>
>... it needs way better integration from distributions. That's where
>userland is important. Make the effort to report KDE's supposed lack
>of pavucontrol (Lennart, couldn't you have called the thing
>pulsecontrol? Ach!)

Jolly idea, that.  blahcontrol seems to be the buzzword these days.

>to redhat and it will get fixed. Like Lennart 
>says: He's not even aware of it because he's on gnome. Help them and
>people will benefit from it.

And I don't like gnomes constant nannying and nagging, not to mention its 
difficulty in actually configuring it.  Gnome seems built for winderz users 
and I only have one xp install out of 4 machines here.  And it boots F8 99.9% 
of the time.  KDE I can set to do almost anything.

>Wolfgang
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Crito, I owe a cock to Asclepius; will you remember to pay the debt?
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Re: [LAD] Guide to Linux Sound APIs

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 01 October 2008, victor wrote:
>Gosh, I hope I have enough gusto to be re-building computers when
>I get there (if I do), never mind programming in C (will it still exist?).
>Impressive.
>
>Victor

Well, I did it yesterday, read it and get jealous:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# dmesg|grep Bogo
[0.000999] Calibrating delay loop (skipped), value calculated using timer 
frequency.. 4420.30 BogoMIPS (lpj=2210151)
[0.000999] Calibrating delay using timer specific routine.. 4420.64 
BogoMIPS (lpj=2210323)
[0.000999] Calibrating delay using timer specific routine.. 4420.44 
BogoMIPS (lpj=2210221)
[0.000999] Calibrating delay using timer specific routine.. 4420.44 
BogoMIPS (lpj=2210220)
[0.247012] Total of 4 processors activated (17681.83 BogoMIPS).

Unforch, I have not found a way to drive this video card with anything but 
plain old radeon.  R600 chipset support is very thin & non-accelerated, and 
experimental according to Xorg.0.log.  glxgears is about 300 fps.

tvtime won't run, but now sketchup does, which was the point of this $500+ 
expenditure. :)

>> Were I 20 years younger, which would put me in my mid-50's when I was
>> carving
>> machine code for 8 bit machines, I most certainly would.  But at 74, I
>> find
>> I'm doing a lot of stuff in bash only.  I'm not fully groking the new c99
>> syntax, its a far cry from either of my K&R Ansi C manuals.

Also, since real live gets in the way, this summers project has been:

With the exception of the folks in the pix who helped raise the trusses, and a 
couple of hours nailing shingles, the rest of that came from my head and 
hands since about may 26th.

I still have some soffit to install on the back and gable end.  But its doing 
an intermittent drizzle here today, so not much is being done, instead I just 
rebuilt my modprobe.conf (something mucked it up) and now I have sound again.
I have had that file diddled by supposedly un-connected software so many times 
I am about to set the -i flag on that file, just to see who bitches about it.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Can't open /usr/share/games/fortunes/fortunes.dat.

Humm, my fortune database is ???  Better yet, where the hell did the 
surplus 's' come from?
Here is that script:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] bin]# cat makesig
echo '-- ' >~/signature
echo Cheers, Gene  >>~/signature
cat ~/sigbase >>~/signature
/usr/bin/fortune -s >>~/signature

Me goes off scratching balding head...

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Re: [LAD] Audio Trigger

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 06 November 2008, OrazioPirataDelloSpazio (Lorenzo) wrote:
>Hi all,
>I need to use a microphone input as a trigger. In other words my idea is
>to connect a switch to the microphone input. In this way, when the
>switch is turned on it generates a spike in the captured track.
>I would like to create a program that trigger an event every spike it
>receives.

1st, the switch needs to switch a voltage, otherwise there is nothing to 
record.  Most voltages (think carbon zinc 1.5 volt battery) are going to be 
too high for a mic input, but will drive it to saturation in the A-d stage.  
This could be used to advantage, but depends on the card.  If the input is DC 
coupled, then the output data should be a 16 bit signed integer, with a zero 
value when the switch is open, and full scale when it is closed.

>I succeed in capturing the mic input through a simple program that uses
>alsa driver, but I don't know how to "parse" the raw data to search for
>the spikes. Any hints?

Sure, read the data stream as signed integers and look for that point where it 
suddenly goes full scale from some value that is lose to zero.

>Second question: on a "full duplex" sound card, can I capture at 8 bit,
>mono, 22.050 bit/s , and on the same time playback at 16 bit, stereo,
>44.100 ?

The capture clocking will likely be the same as the playback, and likely will 
be a 16 bit per sample capture since 8 bit, without a lot of monkey business 
in the capture channel, is pretty poor telephone quality.  More than adequate 
for what you want to do, but probably not something the hardware can be 
talked into doing.

>Thank you!
>
>Lorenzo
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Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
QOTD:
Silence is the only virtue he has left.
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[LAD] Audio vs ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings;

Up2date reinstall of the latest FU8 respin.

The various audio devices found by an lspci -vv on this mobo are:
==
00:06.1 Audio device: nVidia Corporation MCP55 High Definition Audio (rev a2)
Subsystem: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. Unknown device 81f6
Control: I/O- Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- 
Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx-
Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- 
SERR- TAbort- 
SERR- TAbort- 
SERR- 
Kernel driver in use: HDA Intel
Kernel modules: snd-hda-intel
===

And there is also a pcHDTV-3000 which has a connexant audio but its obviously 
a mic level output, and since tvtime doesn't work on the video card 
associated with the last device listed above, the point is moot till it does 
work.

The first device above I have not been able to get a peep out of, so I've made 
the second one, the Audigy2, the default.  And I have NDI where to plug 
anything that looks like audio into that ATI based HD-2400-Pro video card, 
but lspci says its there.

Testing the sound for the audigy2 in system-config-soundcard works, but places 
like utube are silent.  As is cnn et all since the last reboot.

2 questions:

do we have a 'vu meter' that can be switched to monitor the various audio 
inputs?

And when I had to reinstall, I see that pulseaudio was installed, and a now 
frozen 'lsof|grep audio' returns this, but has not returned a prompt.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] cards]# lsof |grep audio
pulseaudi  3473  root  txt   REG8,357972   
53801556 /usr/bin/pulseaudio
artsd  3528  root  mem   REG8,396380   
53795593 /usr/lib/libaudio.so.2.4
artsd  3528  root  mem   REG8,3   171580
5603705 /usr/lib/libaudiofile.so.0.0.2

Is this yet another case where I need to remove as much PA as I can in order 
to get working sound again, or is there a configurator for this PITA that 
might be able to fix this?  The silence here is deafening.

Thanks.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Round Numbers are always false.
-- Samuel Johnson
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Re: [LAD] Audio vs ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 November 2008, Thomas Kuther wrote:
>On Sa, 29.11.08 00:46 Gene Heskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Greetings;
>>
>> Up2date reinstall of the latest FU8 respin.
>>
>> The various audio devices found by an lspci -vv on this mobo are:
>> ==
>> 00:06.1 Audio device: nVidia Corporation MCP55 High Definition Audio
>> (rev a2) Subsystem: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. Unknown device 81f6
>> Control: I/O- Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop-
>> ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx-
>> Status: Cap+ 66MHz+ UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=fast
>>
>> >TAbort- SERR- >
>> Latency: 0 (500ns min, 1250ns max)
>> Interrupt: pin B routed to IRQ 21
>> Region 0: Memory at fe024000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable)
>> [size=16K] Capabilities: [44] Power Management version 2
>> Flags: PMEClk- DSI- D1- D2- AuxCurrent=0mA
>> PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot+,D3cold+)
>> Status: D0 PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
>> Capabilities: [50] Message Signalled Interrupts: Mask+ 64bit+
>> Queue=0/0 Enable-
>> Address:   Data: 
>> Masking:   Pending: 
>> Capabilities: [6c] HyperTransport: MSI Mapping Enable+ Fixed+
>> Kernel driver in use: HDA Intel
>> Kernel modules: snd-hda-intel
>> ==
>> 01:07.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB0400 Audigy2
>> Value Subsystem: Creative Labs Unknown device 1001
>> Control: I/O+ Mem- BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop-
>> ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx-
>> Status: Cap+ 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B+ ParErr- DEVSEL=medium
>>
>> >TAbort- SERR- >
>> Latency: 32 (500ns min, 5000ns max)
>> Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 17
>> Region 0: I/O ports at ac00 [size=64]
>> Capabilities: [dc] Power Management version 2
>> Flags: PMEClk- DSI+ D1+ D2+ AuxCurrent=0mA
>> PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot-,D3cold-)
>> Status: D0 PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
>> Kernel driver in use: EMU10K1_Audigy
>> Kernel modules: snd-emu10k1
>> ===
>> 03:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc Unknown device aa10
>> Subsystem: Diamond Multimedia Systems Unknown device aa10
>> Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop-
>> ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx-
>> Status: Cap+ 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B- ParErr- DEVSEL=fast
>>
>> >TAbort- SERR- >
>> Latency: 0, Cache Line Size: 32 bytes
>> Interrupt: pin B routed to IRQ 16
>> Region 0: Memory at fddfc000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable)
>> [size=16K] Capabilities: [50] Power Management version 3
>> Flags: PMEClk- DSI- D1+ D2+ AuxCurrent=0mA
>> PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot-,D3cold-)
>> Status: D0 PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
>> Capabilities: [58] Express (v1) Legacy Endpoint, MSI 00
>> DevCap: MaxPayload 128 bytes, PhantFunc 0, Latency
>> L0s <4us, L1 unlimited
>> ExtTag+ AttnBtn- AttnInd- PwrInd- RBE+
>> FLReset- DevCtl: Report errors: Correctable- Non-Fatal- Fatal-
>> Unsupported-
>> RlxdOrd+ ExtTag- PhantFunc- AuxPwr- NoSnoop+
>> MaxPayload 128 bytes, MaxReadReq 128 bytes
>> DevSta: CorrErr- UncorrErr- FatalErr- UnsuppReq-
>> AuxPwr- TransPend-
>> LnkCap: Port #0, Speed 2.5GT/s, Width x16, ASPM L0s
>> L1, Latency L0 <64ns, L1 <1us
>> ClockPM- Suprise- LLActRep- BwNot-
>> LnkCtl: ASPM Disabled; RCB 64 bytes Disabled-
>> Retrain- CommClk+
>> ExtSynch- ClockPM- AutWidDis- BWInt- AutBWInt-
>> LnkSta: Speed 2.5GT/s, Width x16, TrErr- Train-
>> SlotClk+ DLActive- BWMgmt- ABWMgmt-
>> Capabilities: [a0] Message Signalled Interrupts: Mask- 64bit+
>> Queue=0/0 Enable-
>> Address:   Data: 
>> Capabilities: [100] Vendor Specific Information 
>> Kernel driver in use: HDA Intel
>> Kernel modules: snd-hda-intel
>> ===
>>
>> And there is also a pcHDTV-3000 which has a connexant audio but its
>> obviously a mic level output, and since tvtime doesn't work on the
>> video card associated with the last device listed above, the point is
>> moot till it does work.
>>
>> The first device ab

Re: [LAD] Audio vs ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 November 2008, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Hi :)
>
>my reply might fail the topic, but maybe there is something in common.
>
>I have an ASUS M2A-VM HDMI. I disabled on-board audio and HDMI and
>removed the HDMI PCIe card.
>If I try to use MIDI applications like Rosegarden, Qtractor and soft
>synth like Qsynth (using an USB MIDI IO device and a Envy24 based sound
>card) I only get crashes.
>I tried to generate a core file, but this didn't work until now, so I
>have no information about what is going wrong at the moment.
>
>Okay, in my case it's not audio that's not working, but MIDI, anyway,
>both has to do with ALSA.
>
>I'm sorry if this is something complete different.
>
>Cheers,
>Ralf

I think it is Ralf, here, when the Audigy2 is running, it has a midi port, 
just feed it the file and it plays, if your startup (rc.local) feeds it the 
cd's soundfont file using asfxload IIRC.  Here, I've since found pavumeter, 
and somehow set up a simultainious feed in PA, and if I play a cnn news 
video, or a utube video, this pavumeter shows the audio is making it that 
far, but from there I guess it goes to /dev/null.

Maybe that is YAC? (yet Another Clue)

I haven't tried to play a midi file, hang on a sec, darn, no .midi files 
survived the drive crash so I can't test that ATM.

Someone suggested I run, as root, update-pciids, which did then allow the 
video card to be identified, but not its ATI audio on the same card:

03:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc RV610 audio device [Radeon HD 2400 
PRO]
Subsystem: Diamond Multimedia Systems Unknown device aa10

Thanks Ralf.  I added the LAD list to the CC line as I see this is a private 
msg.  Normally a reply goes only to the list, so you'll get two copies I 
suspect.  I guess the list server isn't setting the Reply-to: line?

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
One of the signs of Napoleon's greatness is the fact that he once had a
publisher shot.
-- Siegfried Unseld
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Re: [LAD] ASUS mobo NEW thread - started OT for another tread

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 November 2008, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>In reply to
>Subject:   Re: [LAD] Audio vs ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo
>Date:  Sat, 29 Nov 2008 08:55:17 -0500
>From:  Gene Heskett
>Organization:
>To:Ralf Mardorf
>CC:linux-audio-dev lists.linuxaudio.org
>References:<200811290046.51317.gene.heskett verizon.net>
><4930F02B.5030109 alice-dsl.net>
>
>
>Hi Gene :)
>
>before it gets too confusing, I'll isolate the ASUS mobo audio and ASUS
>mobo MIDI issue.
>
>I got another reply off-list about the MIDI issue. Here it is, including
>my answer:
>Subject:   Re: [LAD] Audio vs ASUS mobo - MIDI
>Date:  Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:34:42 +0100
>From:  Ralf Mardorf
>To:
>References:
>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 2008-11-29 at 08:32 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>> If I try to use MIDI applications like Rosegarden, Qtractor and soft
>>> synth like Qsynth (using an USB MIDI IO device and a Envy24 based sound
>>> card) I only get crashes.
>>
>> I got that on kernel 2.6.26-rt when I upgraded from 2.6.24. Apparently
>> the rt-patch is broken for midi on that one.
>>
>> What is your kernel?
>
>*I changed the subject, so that this don't annoy the original thread, by
>something that might be OT, if this will become something for the list,
>but for the moment I agree, that off-list seems to be the better choice.*
>
>Hi :)
>
>no, it has nothing to do with the problems for real-time kernels ex
>2.6.26. I tested Suse 11.0 with the distro's real-time kernels, not with
>the Jengelh once. Suse 11.0 at the moment is 2.6.25 and I tested 64
>Studio 2.1 with the default real-time kernel 2.6.21 and a self compiled
>real-time kernel 2.6.24.
>
>I know that the ASUS M2N-SLI Delux has another chipset than my ASUS
>M2A-VM HDMI, but because both mobos are relatively new, there might be
>something in common.
>
>MIDI applications crashes without any useful messages for my ASUS M2A-VM
>HDMI with an AMD BE-2350 CPU using Suse 11.0, 64 Studio 2.1 default
>(Etch) and 64 Studio 2.1 upgraded to Lenny. Another user has a Gigabyte
>ga-p35-ds3l with an Intel q6600 CPU and the same problems, he now runs
>Windows for MIDI work, but started with 64 Studio, Arch and Sidux, he
>also tested different kernels. His mobo is fine with XP, Cubase SX and
>Halion, 100% stable. I don't have any Windows install for my computer,
>so I don't have any information about this.
>
>For my mobo Linux is stable for any thing else, but MIDI applications,
>resp. when I try to run MIDI applications, often their audio clients,
>resp. JACK fails.
>
>I still hope it will be possible to solve the problem. I have the latest
>BIOS version for my mobo.

My bios is one back, the most recent alpha version mucks the memory config and 
won't boot.

>Until now I only tested 64-bit distros and 
>never a 32-bit version.
>
>What mobo, CPU and distro do you use?

Asus M2N-SLI DELUXE, slow 4 core phenom 9550, the august 2008 respin of F8.  
Kernel:
2.6.26.6-49.fc8.
>Thanks,
>Ralf



-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
World War III?  No thanks!
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Re: [LAD] Audio vs ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 November 2008, Thomas Kuther wrote:
>On Sa, 29.11.08 08:11 Gene Heskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >To test audio w/o pulseaudio, you can take some wave file and run
>> >
>> >pasuspender aplay foo.wav
>>
>> This gets me dead silence, both from the speakers plugged into the
>> Audigy2, and from a phone type headset plugged into the 'lime' jack
>> called front speakers on the motherboard.
>>
>> No errors reported:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] cards]# pasuspender
>> aplay /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav Playing WAVE
>> '/usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav' : Signed 16 bit Little
>> Endian, Rate 48000 Hz, Mono
>>
>> >or just kill it: pulseaudio -k
>>
>> Which gets me this error now:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] cards]# pulseaudio -k
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] cards]# aplay /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav
>> *** PULSEAUDIO: Unable to connect: Connection refused
>> aplay: main:564: audio open error: Connection refused
>
>Ah, that looks as if the default device is set to use the "pulse"
>plugin then. If your distribution did that system-whide,
>your /etc/asound.conf might contain something like
>
>pcm.!default {
>type pulse
>}
>ctl.!default {
>type pulse
>}
A cat of /etc/asound.conf:
===
#Generated by system-config-soundcard
#If you edit this file, don't run system-config-soundcard,
#all your changes here could be lost.
#SWCONF
#DEV 2
defaults.pcm.card 0
defaults.pcm.device 2
defaults.ctl.card 0
===
>
>(or maybe they put a .asoundrc in /etc/skel, then you should have it in
>~/.asoundrc)

That file does not exist on this system.

>So try commenting it out, paulseaudio -k, and aplay again.
>"cat /proc/asound/cards" shows the current order of your devices,

 0 [Audigy2]: Audigy2 - Audigy 2 Value [SB0400]
  Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] (rev.0, serial:0x10011102) at 
0xac00, irq 17
 1 [NVidia ]: HDA-Intel - HDA NVidia
  HDA NVidia at 0xfe024000 irq 21
 2 [HDMI   ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI HDMI
  HDA ATI HDMI at 0xfddfc000 irq 16
=

>so 
>
>aplay -Dhw:0 == card 0
>aplay -Dhw:1 == card 1
>
>etc..
>
>> I restarted PA, it bitched about being run as root, and re-ran your
>> sample with and without the pasuspender prefix, no errors reported
>> and pavumeter watching the simultainious output was as silent as the
>> rest of the room.
>>
>> >The ATI device in your lspci output could be the HDMI audio out.
>> >Try to run "update-pciids" as root, maybe lspci shows a correct
>> >description then (instead of unknown device)
>>
>> Only partially, now it says:
>> =
>> 03:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc RV610 audio device [Radeon
>> HD 2400 PRO]
>> Subsystem: Diamond Multimedia Systems Unknown device aa10
>> [...]
>> ===
>> But this card does not, to my knowledge have any audio output
>> facilities unless it is part of the digital connection to the
>> monitor, a Samsung BW-205, and there are no audio jacks in evidence
>> on it either.
>
>Those HDMI jacks contain both, audio and video signal output.
>http://www.cobaltcable.com/images/hdmi_jack.jpg

No such socket on this video card. analog/svga(db15), svhs and digital only.

I just rebooted as something was preventing me from restarting the ktorrent 
gui(and still is), and there was a message box on screen after x had started 
telling me the default device refused permissions and that the sound server 
would continue using /dev/null, so now we know where the audio is going, but 
not why.  What do I inspect and chmod to get that going, as root?

>
>Regards,
>Thomas



-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
I have defined the hundred per cent American as ninety-nine per cent an idiot.
-- George Bernard Shaw
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Re: [LAD] ASUS mobo NEW thread - started OT for another tread

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 November 2008, Thomas Kuther wrote:
>On Sa, 29.11.08 15:13 Ralf Mardorf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> If I try to use MIDI applications like Rosegarden, Qtractor and
>> >> soft synth like Qsynth (using an USB MIDI IO device and a Envy24
>> >> based sound card) I only get crashes.
>> >
>> > I got that on kernel 2.6.26-rt when I upgraded from 2.6.24.
>> > Apparently the rt-patch is broken for midi on that one.
>> >
>> > What is your kernel?
>
>I have similar problems with MIDI things on 2.6.26.6-rt with my Envy24
>based card.
>
>http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.audio.users/51411/match=jackd+vs
>
>The kernel was guilty.

I recovered many kernels, but haven't had time to play with grub.conf to add 
them back. I will do that and get back as I have all the way up to 28-rc6 
available.

Thanks


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
'Course, that doesn't work when 'a' contains parentheses.
 -- Larry Wall in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: [LAD] ASUS mobo NEW thread - started OT for another tread

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 November 2008, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Thomas Kuther wrote:
>> I have similar problems with MIDI things on 2.6.26.6-rt with my Envy24
>> based card.
>>
>> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.audio.users/51411/match=jackd+vs
>>
>> The kernel was guilty.
>
>Yes, it's well known, that kernel ex 2.6.26 aren't fine with the rt patch.

I just now rebooted to 2.6.28-rc6, and I still get this at the x start:
===
Sound server informational message:
Error while initializing the sound driver:
device: default can't be opened for playback (Connection refused)
The sound server will continue, using the null output device.

I don't know what device the 'default device' is, although a cat 
of /proc/asound/cards returns this list:
 0 [Audigy2]: Audigy2 - Audigy 2 Value [SB0400]
  Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] (rev.0, serial:0x10011102) at 
0xac00, irq 17
 1 [NVidia ]: HDA-Intel - HDA NVidia
  HDA NVidia at 0xfe024000 irq 21
 2 [HDMI   ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI HDMI
  HDA ATI HDMI at 0xfddfc000 irq 16

And I have this in /dev:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# ls -l /dev/a*
crw-rw  1 root root 14, 14 2008-11-29 10:39 /dev/admmidi
crw-rw+ 1 root root 14, 12 2008-11-29 10:39 /dev/adsp
crw-rw+ 1 root root 14, 28 2008-11-29 10:39 /dev/adsp1
crw-rw+ 1 root root 14, 13 2008-11-29 10:39 /dev/amidi
crw-rw+ 1 root root 14,  4 2008-11-29 10:39 /dev/audio
crw-rw+ 1 root root 14, 20 2008-11-29 10:39 /dev/audio1
crw-rw  1 root root 10, 60 2008-11-29 10:39 /dev/autofs

Here is /etc/alsa/pulse-default.conf:
=
# PulseAudio plugin configuration

# Let's create a virtual device "pulse" for mixer and PCM

pcm.pulse {
type pulse
}

ctl.pulse {
type pulse
}

# Let's make it the default!

pcm.!default {
type pulse
}

ctl.!default {
type pulse
}
===
Which gives me no clue as to what the 'default device' might be either.
So here is /etc/alsa/alsa.conf:
===
#
#  ALSA library configuration file
#

# pre-load the configuration files

@hooks [
{
func load
files [
"/etc/alsa/pulse-default.conf"
"/etc/asound.conf"
"~/.asoundrc"
]
errors false
}
]

# load card-specific configuration files (on request)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] [
{
func load
files [
{
@func concat
strings [
{ @func datadir }
"/cards/aliases.conf"
]
}
]
}
{
func load_for_all_cards
files [
{
@func concat
strings [
{ @func datadir }
"/cards/"
{ @func private_string }
".conf"
]
}
]
errors false
}
]

#
# defaults
#

# show all name hints also for definitions without hint {} section
defaults.namehint.showall off
# show just basic name hints
defaults.namehint.basic on
# show extended name hints
defaults.namehint.extended off
#
defaults.ctl.card 0
defaults.pcm.card 0
defaults.pcm.device 0
defaults.pcm.subdevice -1
defaults.pcm.nonblock 1
defaults.pcm.ipc_key 5678293
defaults.pcm.ipc_perm 0600
defaults.pcm.dmix.max_periods 0
defaults.pcm.dmix.rate 48000
defaults.pcm.dmix.format "unchanged"
defaults.pcm.dmix.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.dmix.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.dsnoop.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.dsnoop.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.front.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.front.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.rear.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.rear.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.center_lfe.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.center_lfe.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.side.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.side.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.surround40.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.surround40.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.surround41.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.surround41.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.surround50.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.surround50.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.surround51.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.surround51.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.surround71.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.surround71.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.iec958.card defaults.pcm.card
defaults.pcm.iec958.device defaults.pcm.device
defaults.pcm.modem.card

Re: [LAD] ASUS mobo NEW thread - started OT for another tread

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 November 2008, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>> device: default can't be opened for playback (Connection refused)
>
>Hi, I'm short in time and couldn't read the last two mails and I can't
>read this mail too right now, but to your question which the "debvice:
>default" is, it's hw:0, if you wish to see the sequence of your sound
>devices, run QjackCtl. You can see the order of the devices, if you take
>a look at the setup. If your Linux changes the numbers for the devices
>with each boot, you need to give the advices consistent numbers, e.g.
>for Debian based Linux by following http://www.64studio.com/faq_user.
>
>So the new thread, is also the old thread :D, anyway, your problem seems
>to be solvable :), while I seems to have less good luck :(.
>

Its working, I took out the alsa pulse plugin. Bingo!
>Hth,
>Ralf



-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Help me, I'm a prisoner in a Fortune cookie file!
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Re: [LAD] [ot] - NEED some security advise PLEASE! + new question

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 15 February 2009, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
>On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:39:09AM +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote:
>> ... And if it's a public server,
>> I'd rather not have anybody logging in through ssh who is not capable of
>> dealing with key logins. I disabled password logins through ssh on
>> my public machines.
>
>That seems to be the best way to deal with it.
>
>A weakly related OT question:
>
>I need to set up a machine as a router. One side is
>a fixed public IP address, the other side is a local
>net using 192.168.1.x. I want to give internet access
>to the machines on the local net, so this requires
>(AFAIK) NAT. Anyone has a pointer to a good tutorial
>about how to do this ?
>
>TIA,

Just one answer IMO, DD-WRT.  Runs from a CF card in an adapter on the end of 
a PATA cable.

-- 
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Give all orders verbally.  Never write anything down that might go into a
"Pearl Harbor File".
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[LAD] qjackd Q

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

I have used the kde audio prefs to place Jack at the top of the priority list, 
my audigy 2 stuffs next,  with esd and pulse at the bottom.  Everything seemed 
to work ok, but I noticed last night after I had watched some news on cnn with 
firefox-3.0.7, that qjackd was using an average of 50% of all 4 cores on my 
amd phenom, but no sound was being played at the time and the speakers were 
silent.  Calling up qjackctl and doing a restart seems to have fixed it.

Bug?

Thanks.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Duty, n:
What one expects from others.
-- Oscar Wilde

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[LAD] qjackd goes funkity

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

1: I installed the jack suite about a week ago, recommended by a friend and 
I've had it grab core0 of my quad core phenom and loop at 100% several times, 
however, using qjackctl to stop and restart it always fixes it.  Is there a 
buglet still around?

2: I have kmail set to play its usual pling as incoming mail arrives, and 
since I installed jack, its quite distorted and just a nearly mote whisper.
Is this a possible config error?

It may be that 1 above is related to 2 above as it seems to occur at some 
point when the machine is quiet for the night, but fetchmail/procmail/kmail is 
still running, so it would be getting tapped at that input several hundred 
times by the time I get up the next morning.

Comments/hints welcomed.

Thanks.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
I have replaced NT with Linux.
Linux -- heir of the byte that dogged me.

   -- Allan Willis

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Re: [LAD] qjackd goes funkity

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 30 March 2009, MarcO'Chapeau wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 16:44:25 -0400, Gene Heskett 
>
>wrote:
>> Greetings all;
>
>Hi there,
>
>> 1: I installed the jack suite about a week ago, recommended by a friend
>
>and
>
>> I've had it grab core0 of my quad core phenom and loop at 100% several
>> times,
>> however, using qjackctl to stop and restart it always fixes it.  Is there
>
>a
>
>> buglet still around?
>
>Around where ? we don't know which version of JACK and qjackctl you're
>using...

[r...@coyote linux-2.6.28.9]# rpm -qa|grep jack
wine-jack-1.1.15-1.fc10.i386
jack-rack-1.4.7-1.fc9.i386
jack-audio-connection-kit-devel-0.116.1-3.fc10.i386
pulseaudio-module-jack-0.9.14-1.fc10.i386
projectM-jack-1.2.0-4.fc10.i386
jack-audio-connection-kit-example-clients-0.116.1-3.fc10.i386
qjackctl-0.3.3-1.fc10.i386
jack-audio-connection-kit-0.116.1-3.fc10.i386

>> 2: I have kmail set to play its usual pling as incoming mail arrives, and
>>
>> since I installed jack, its quite distorted and just a nearly mote
>
>whisper.
>
>> Is this a possible config error?
>>
>> It may be that 1 above is related to 2 above as it seems to occur at some
>>
>> point when the machine is quiet for the night, but
>
>fetchmail/procmail/kmail
>
>> is
>> still running, so it would be getting tapped at that input several
>
>hundred
>
>> times by the time I get up the next morning.
>>
>> Comments/hints welcomed.
>
>You should probably not use JACK for desktop stuff... does all the apps
>that output audio through JACK sound the same or is it just kmail ?
>
Apparently just kmail that I've noticed so far, cnn's news video seem to be 
ok, as well as msnbc & abcnews.

>Cheers,
>Marc-Olivier Barre.

Thank you.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Paranoia doesn't mean the whole world isn't out to get you.

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Re: [LAD] qjackd goes funkity

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 30 March 2009, Gene Heskett wrote:
>On Monday 30 March 2009, MarcO'Chapeau wrote:
>>On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 16:44:25 -0400, Gene Heskett 
>>
>>wrote:
>>> Greetings all;
>>
>>Hi there,
>>
>>> 1: I installed the jack suite about a week ago, recommended by a friend
>>
>>and
>>
>>> I've had it grab core0 of my quad core phenom and loop at 100% several
>>> times,
>>> however, using qjackctl to stop and restart it always fixes it.  Is there
>>
>>a
>>
>>> buglet still around?
>>
>>Around where ? we don't know which version of JACK and qjackctl you're
>>using...
>
>[r...@coyote linux-2.6.28.9]# rpm -qa|grep jack
>wine-jack-1.1.15-1.fc10.i386
>jack-rack-1.4.7-1.fc9.i386
>jack-audio-connection-kit-devel-0.116.1-3.fc10.i386
>pulseaudio-module-jack-0.9.14-1.fc10.i386
>projectM-jack-1.2.0-4.fc10.i386
>jack-audio-connection-kit-example-clients-0.116.1-3.fc10.i386
>qjackctl-0.3.3-1.fc10.i386
>jack-audio-connection-kit-0.116.1-3.fc10.i386
>
>>> 2: I have kmail set to play its usual pling as incoming mail arrives, and
>>>
>>> since I installed jack, its quite distorted and just a nearly mote
>>
>>whisper.
>>
>>> Is this a possible config error?
>>>
>>> It may be that 1 above is related to 2 above as it seems to occur at some
>>>
>>> point when the machine is quiet for the night, but
>>
>>fetchmail/procmail/kmail
>>
>>> is
>>> still running, so it would be getting tapped at that input several
>>
>>hundred
>>
>>> times by the time I get up the next morning.
>>>
>>> Comments/hints welcomed.
>>
>>You should probably not use JACK for desktop stuff... does all the apps
>>that output audio through JACK sound the same or is it just kmail ?
>
>Apparently just kmail that I've noticed so far, cnn's news video seem to be
>ok, as well as msnbc & abcnews.
>
>>Cheers,
>>Marc-Olivier Barre.
>
>Thank you.

PS: 13:16 local time, it has just now grabbed 2 of the 4 cores, but qjackctl 
stopped both copies just fine.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it.
-- Abbie Hoffman

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[LAD] Building 'rhumba box', need square inches of ports data.

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings;

I'm building a rhumba box not exactly like anything I've been able to google 
up on the net.  But I saw one a week ago that I thought worked very well as an 
acoustic standup bass substitute when it was close miked.

My boxes panels are 5.2mm birch plywood, with double rabbeted cherry glue 
strips, and except for the sound port holes in the front panel, will be air 
sealed for best resonance.  Total capacity then is 3.535 cu feet.

My question is, given that the port holes will be a larger one in the dead 
center of the front panel, and two smaller ones flanking it, splitting the 
space so the smaller ones will be centered on 1/2 the distance from the center 
point of the center hole, sort of a | o 0 o | where the vertical lines are the 
ends of the box by its longest measure.

Is there a formula for lowest frequency vs cubic feet that is commonly used to 
determine the sizes of these 'sound' portholes?

Thanks all.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Yes, but every time I try to see things your way, I get a headache.

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[LAD] Need to look at and tune an acoustic instrument

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings;

I'm told that matlab can do this, but this is a one time deal on a home made 
instrument.  I've not that sort of money to spend.

Do we have anything for linux that can take a microphone input to an audio 
card, do an FFT on what it picks up that is accurate to small parts of a hertz 
at frequencies in the 1st two octaves of a keyboard?

Thanks all.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


* knghtbrd does the ET thing
 anybody got a speak-n-spell?

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Re: [LAD] Need to look at and tune an acoustic instrument

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 01 June 2009, Jan Weil wrote:
>On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 12:06:16AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> I'm told that matlab can do this, but this is a one time deal on a home
>> made instrument.  I've not that sort of money to spend.
>>
>> Do we have anything for linux that can take a microphone input to an audio
>> card, do an FFT on what it picks up that is accurate to small parts of a
>> hertz at frequencies in the 1st two octaves of a keyboard?
>
>FMIT <http://home.gna.org/fmit/>?
>
>HTH
>
>Jan

That looks pretty close Jan, thanks.  I'll see if I can get the F6 rpm to 
install on F10.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>

No, that's wrong too.  Now there's a race condition between the rm and
the mv.  Hmm, I need more coffee.
-- Guy Maor on Debian Bug#25228

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Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by default; Desktop/audio RT developers, read this!

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 23 June 2009, Bob Ham wrote:
>On Tue, 2009-06-23 at 00:49 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> On Tue, 23.06.09 00:36, Fons Adriaensen (f...@kokkinizita.net) wrote:
>> > Since you claim that all the *Kit stuff is optional,
>>
>> (as a side note, I didn't claim that)
>>
>> > and you will still allow us to run our systems as we
>> > see fit, and since you wear a Red Hat, please tell
>> > me how to remove
>>
>> Just downgrade to FC5 or so.
>
>This response shows a real problem.  The fact that you cannot disable
>these kinds of services without forking shows there's a design problem.
>The fact that these badly-designed services have become so widespread
>shows a deeper problem.
>
>Recently, money seems to have become quite influential in the free
>software community, typified by Red Hat and its efforts to drive free
>software development in a direction that suits enterprise customers.
>The quoted response shows an unwillingness for these parties to
>*cooperate* with communities and instead I see a desire to *dictate* to
>communities.
>
>Yes, I can fork Fedora and create a new distribution but that takes a
>great deal of time and effort.  If Red Hat were interested in
>cooperating instead of dictating, that effort would not be needed; Red
>Hat would take on the responsibility of ensuring that their systems are
>flexible enough not to need a fork.  Practically, that means designing
>software systems in such a way as they can be easily disabled.
>
>
>Being fuelled by money, this new influence in free software is
>susceptible to the control of any parties willing to spend enough.  That
>opens the possibility of a fifth column within the free software
>community.  I've previously argued that in future, it may be necessary
>to protect the interests of free software by forking away from this
>influence if it starts behaving as a fifth column.
>
>The above response shows that this influence is already having a
>detrimental affect on the quality of free software.  I wonder if it
>won't be necessary to fork away from this influence, purely because of
>the sub-standard nature of the solutions it produces.
>
>RealtimeKit demonstrates this sub-standard nature in that it's a
>workaround.  It provides an API to be used if a system call fails.  This
>is not a problem in itself but there seems to be no desire to spend the
>time and effort needed to deal with the issue of why the system call is
>failing.  Instead, there seems to be only a narrow-minded drive to
>produce the next-best *Kit, which will provide an all-new service to
>enable our enterprise customers!
>
>It's great that all these new Kits are putting free software in the
>hands of average users.  What isn't great is that they seem to be
>hastily developed and without concern for the wider free software
>community.  There will be consequences of this lack of concern.
>
>Bob

+10,000

PA is one of the biggest screwups ever, but red hat can't see it.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


"In short, _N is Richardian if, and only if, _N is not Richardian."

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Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by default; Desktop/audio RT developers, read this!

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 23 June 2009, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
>> +10,000
>>
>> PA is one of the biggest screwups ever, but red hat can't see it.
>
>I don't think PA is a bad thing. On my laptop, PA works as follows:
>
>1) takes care of general desktop stuff as needed
>2) when JACKD connects directly to ALSA, PA ceases to play anything through
>the audio card (who would want any "you got mails" in the middle of an audio
>production anyhow?) but it also prevents other apps from complaining how
>they cannot access the audio card.
>
>Now, since I do not know enough about the innards of PA beyond couple of
>conference slides, I cannot attest just how many apps actually are
>intercepted by PA or if they are designed to gracefully ignore lack of
>output, but to me this spells out a desktop experience the way it is
>supposed to be. Granted, PA still has bugs to work out and I had it crap out
>on me after couple standby/resume cycles at which point I simply had to
>restart it. Other than that I had no noticeable problems with it.
>
>So, I wonder if part of the problem could be hardware-specific (cannot
>imagine how this would be the case, but then what else would cause such
>divergent perception of PA?)
>
>Ico

Oh it works fine on my lappy, IF you don't mind the audio being 3  words 
behind the lips making the noise when watching a news clip from 
cnn/fgox/abc/nbc/whoever.

I had to get rid of it to even get ANY sound on my main machine, which has at 
least 3 audio systems in it, I simply could not convince it that the default 
card to output to was the audigy2 (SBO400) card.  The ASUS mobo audio just 
doesn't cut it, and AFAICT, the 'hda' audio on my HD-2400 Pro video card is 
not even bonded out.

PA probably works reasonably well for those who want to tinker with it for 
each audio generating app they run.  But put it into a multichannel/multicard 
environment and it craps its pants.

Me, I just wanna see & hear the news from the tv peoples web sites like cnn 
etc.  Or play some music I ripped from my own CD's.  For that, PA fails.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


The longer the title, the less important the job.

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Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by default; Desktop/audio RT developers, read this!

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 24 June 2009, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
>On Wed, 2009-06-24 at 10:33 +0700, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>> On 06/24/2009 10:24 AM, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
>> > On Tue, 2009-06-23 at 18:44 -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
>> > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Fernando
>> > >
>> > > Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
>> > > > see here for an interesting entry:
>> > > >  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=442959
>> > >
>> > > that is hilarious :)
>> >
>> > Hmmm, well, not really. It means he has been working on this for a
>> > while. It is too bad that he only made lad aware of it after it was
>> > "ready to go"...
>>
>> It's not something that can be directly pinned on Lennart though. It's
>> not exactly empowering to have to fight for every inch before the work
>> is started.
>
>Yep, I agree, it does not speak very well of lad. I'm not sure what
>would have happened if he had visited lad earlier. It _could_ have been,
>for example, an invitation to work on the project, not necessary a
>request for open, scathing and insulting responses :-) On the other hand
>design by committee has usually little chance of success.
>
>There has obviously been discussions on this, just not here (lkml for
>once - I stopped merely scanning it a while back, impossible to keep
>up).
>
>IMO I would probably not have lasted as long as he did in this thread.
>Too many type and fire responses - as you mention below - with little
>thought or research (I'm guilty as well, of course).
>
>On the other hand he is a member of the lkml list and posts there, and
>lkml is not the kindest of environments. Maybe he expected something
>different of lad.
>
>> Maybe he wanted to conserve his mental energy for the actual code and
>> save the fight for a time when he could handle the load...
>>
>> It's becoming a recurring theme round here, maybe it has always been
>> this way? It seems to me that it's become more so in the past few
>> years.
>
>Maybe so. Or maybe we are (at least the older ones) in the slow process
>of "nothing like the old times" regression :-) I think that in a smaller
>community it is harder to not know somebody, specially in the case of
>lad after the first LAD Conference, and if you know somebody personally
>it is harder to (ab)use sarcasm or outright be insulting, email is
>faceless.
>
>> Lest we recall the eruption over getting lv2 into reactor or whatever
>> that app was.
>>
>> Maybe it's because we are all that much busier these days that it's
>> harder to find the time to edit our responses?
>
>Or maybe it is that the community has gotten bigger. Or both. I know I'm
>busier but that has been a constant for quite a while so it can't be :-)
>
>There may be a degree of anger as well that is directed to whoever stirs
>things a bit. I also have that, but I try to not let that influence my
>posts too much. Don't know how successfully.
>
>-- Fernando

A sane voice, and an good deduction.  Better said than I could, thanks 
Fernando.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


No problem is insoluble.
-- Dr. Janet Wallace, "The Deadly Years", stardate 3479.4

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Re: [LAD] Impro-visor source code and fork

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 19 July 2009, lase...@gmail.com wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>If anybody is interested, I have decompiled the latest Impro-visor version,
>which has only been provide as a binary (in contradiction to the terms of
> the GPL). So if you want the source code just let me know and I will send
> it.
>
>I'm sure it won't compile immediately, since there are a number of incorrect
>constructs returned by the decompilation. I will work on this in the next
>while to have it compile.
>
>I think someone else mentioned they posted the older binary/source
> somewhere. Perhaps this can be hosted at the same location (have to look
> back to see where that is/who posted).
>
>Apart from that, I will be looking into forking Impro-visor in the next few
>days. After making contact with the responsible parties about the GPL
>violations, I have received no reply and the source code has not been
>posted along with the binaries as is legally required. I also contacted
>the department head at the institution responsible for this work to see
>if they would look into the matter. Perhaps they can sort this out in the
>next little while. Failing that, I will probably start a new project on
>SourceForge and be looking to put together a development team.
>Contributions to the software by users will also be welcome. There will
>be a need for new leadsheets, transcriptions, documentation, and even
>translations of the user interface.
>
>Cheer,
>
>Raymond

Turn this violation over to the kind folks at the FSF.  They have a legal team 
to pursue such, and have AFAIK, a 100% batting record.  Letters from attorneys 
will generally get their institutional attention.

>
>
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-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


You buttered your bread, now lie in it.

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Re: [LAD] Connecting to Ekiga from the rest of the World

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 25 July 2009, Jussi Laako wrote:

And yes, I'm hijacking, sorry.

>Nicola Larosa wrote:
>> FEI (For Everyone's Info), while SIP is a standard and interoperable
>> protocol, Skype is a proprietary protocol and app, and being a peer-to-
>> peer system, it uses your bandwidth for other calls too.
>
>This is true, and IMO, XMPP/Jingle is even better standard. Downside of
>these compared to Skype is more or less total lack of encryption for the
>actual voice RTP stream. I would hope that SRTP would be used more, but
>establishing the key infrastructure to support it can be a bit complex...

This 'Jingle' is a new one to me. Unforch, verizon is exactly like M$ in that 
as a 2 bit company, they can't stand one bit of competition, so the user 
confirmation emails from most of the SIP servers are filtered to /dev/null by 
their servers.  I have signed up for several, and never received the 
confirming email.  That can't be just a co-incidence...

>Empathy (http://live.gnome.org/Empathy) is "the" Telepathy client for
>the Linux desktop. Telepathy + Farsight is a framework to handle
>IM/presence/call signaling and streaming.

I'll have to check that out, thanks.  Humm, found a whole bunch of jabber 
stuff with yumex, about 180 megs worth installing now.  I might be back  for 
help. :)

Q: Has that been wrapped for KDE also?  Apparently not for kde4 yet.

Thanks, now back to the thread.

>   - Jussi

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


Vax Vobiscum

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Re: [LAD] students and copyright

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 02 August 2009, Dave Phillips wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>Just out of curiosity, how many participants in this discussion are
>copyright holders ? How many of you have published works under copyright ?
>
>Best,
>
>dp
>
Everything I ever wrote with 3 exceptions, carried a copyright (date) Maurice 
E. Heskett.

The first 2 exceptions are anything I wrote for the trs-80 color computer, 
which I long ago placed in the public domain, some of which is 10 to 20 years 
later, on hardware installation disks from at least one src yet today.  And 
anything I've written for linux has been GPLv2 only since 11 years ago.

The other exception was a control program that was very useful to tv stations 
doing their own commercial production, and the target machine was quite 
cramped for memory, so it was only in the srcs.

How proud one can be about his output is best stated by the longevity of that 
output, several of my projects for the 'coco' are now 20 years old & still in 
use, and 2 programs I wrote for television stations have enjoyed lifetimes of 
over a decade.  Distribution of those however, wasn't an issue, AFAIK, only 
one copy of each of those ever existed, they were written, and the hardware 
needed built, to address a specific need.  I do know that the mention of my 
device and program while at their booth at the NAB in 1981, caused MicroTime 
to drop a project they were working on which was not as capable in the model 
they had there.  Why they didn't just come and ask, I'll never know.

As for the removal of the names of the earlier contributors to the software 
that started this bit of an endless and sometimes smoking thread, I would hope 
that there exists in writing, a letter available to Mr. Keller, allowing their 
copyrights to be removed, or that their contributions have all been re-written 
in a clean room environment, with the re-writers never having had access to 
the original code.  If a code contribution has been completely removed, only 
then can the copyright notice also be removed.

This last option is well established practice and seems to have stood the test 
of legal time.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


Q:  Why did Menachem Begin invade Lebanon?
A:  To impress Jodie Foster.

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Re: [LAD] how i think the gpl works under german jurisdiction

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 August 2009, Jens M Andreasen wrote:
>On Fri, 2009-08-07 at 00:44 +0200, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>> at the risk of starting another zillion-mail thread,
>
>Pamela Jones wrote that "You won't get shot at dawn for not
>understanding the GPL .."
>
>This needs fixing!!!
>
So you are in favor of that?  Humm, it does have a certain attraction. :)
>
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-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

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Re: [LAD] this past weekend's linuxaudio.org downtime

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 12 October 2009, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
>Here's a story that may give you all a good chuckle:
>
>Last weekend Robin Gareus, our LAO guru has contacted me inquiring why
> there was a ~1hr linuxaudio.org server downtime that took place that Sat.
> morning. Luckily we now have an UPS that gives us almost 2 hours of
> offline power. Hence, the server went through this unscathed. Yet, the
> network
>infrastructure was also down so even though the server remained up, there
>was no way of reaching it.
>
>So, I went investigating what happened, and this is the reply I got from
> our on-campus support:
>
>Squirrel fried in transformer.  Campus and part of downtown was out of
> power on Saturday morning before the game. [this was a football game we
> had in town that day with 10K+ visitors]
>
Chuckle, sounds like some of the fireworks I've had in a tv transmitter, from 
snakes and rodents getting into the high voltage stuff.  We have about 7200 
volts and 15 amps available in that supply, so over 100kw is available before 
the breakers trip.  Usually very messy, and several hours off the air while 
we go run down some slabs of micarta 1/2" thick and 3" or more wide & 18" 
long to rebuild terminal strips with.  One such burnup actually blew a hole 
about 3/4" in diameter in a 12 gauge steel wall.  We don't often find enough 
of the culprit to make a positive ID as to specie.

They didn't have that much of a fire if it was still identifiable as a 
squirrel. :)

>:-)
>
>Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>Composition, Music Technology
>Director, DISIS Interactive Sound & Intermedia Studio
>Assistant Co-Director, CCTAD
>CHCI, CS, and Art (by courtesy)
>Virginia Tech
>Dept. of Music - 0240
>Blacksburg, VA 24061
>(540) 231-6139
>(540) 231-5034 (fax)
>i...@vt.edu
>http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/bukvic/
>
>
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-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


It is often the case that the man who can't tell a lie thinks he is the best
judge of one.
-- Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar"
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Re: [LAD] [semi-OT] midi snakes using CAT5?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 01 November 2009, Arnold Krille wrote:
>Hi,
>
>On Sunday 01 November 2009 16:47:44 Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>> i'm playing with my shiny new BCF2K, and i'm going to use it some
>> distance from my machine, so i'm going to try a midi link instead of USB.
>> what is the maximum length of midi chain that you have used without
>> problems? i read somewhere that no more than 15 meters are recommended,
>> which strikes me as pretty short even if it's unbalanced.
>> my idea is to abuse a cat5 cable as a triple midi loom - do you think
>> that could work? pinout would be as follows:
>> 1midi 1 signal
>> 2midi 1 ground
>> 3midi 2 signal
>> 4midi 2 ground
>> 5midi 3 signal
>> 6midi 6 ground
>> 7common +5V
>> 8common +5V
>
>If you want to make use of the drilling of the pins in cat5, it should be
>
>1+2 Midi 1
>3+6 Midi 2
>4+5 Midi 3
>7+8 Midi 4
>
>Why do you want to carry 5V? According to my docs, Midi is just Signal+ and
>Signal- and shield. Which, when carried over Cat5, should be all on the
>shield.

Except that I have yet to see a piece of cat5 with shielding.

>I made myself some adaptors Midi->XLR->Midi a year ago but never actually
> used them to date.
>
>Have fun,
>
>Arnold
>


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


"I will make no bargains with terrorist hardware."
-- Peter da Silva
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Re: [LAD] [semi-OT] midi snakes using CAT5?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 01 November 2009, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>Arnold Krille wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sunday 01 November 2009 16:47:44 Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>>> i'm playing with my shiny new BCF2K, and i'm going to use it some
>>> distance from my machine, so i'm going to try a midi link instead of
>>> USB. what is the maximum length of midi chain that you have used without
>>> problems? i read somewhere that no more than 15 meters are recommended,
>>> which strikes me as pretty short even if it's unbalanced.
>>> my idea is to abuse a cat5 cable as a triple midi loom - do you think
>>> that could work? pinout would be as follows:
>>> 1   midi 1 signal
>>> 2   midi 1 ground
>>> 3   midi 2 signal
>>> 4   midi 2 ground
>>> 5   midi 3 signal
>>> 6   midi 6 ground
>>> 7   common +5V
>>> 8   common +5V
>>
>> If you want to make use of the drilling of the pins in cat5, it should be
>>
>> 1+2 Midi 1
>> 3+6 Midi 2
>> 4+5 Midi 3
>> 7+8 Midi 4
>
>sure, i just numbered the wires, your count is based on rj45, but i
>meant the same.
>
>> Why do you want to carry 5V? According to my docs, Midi is just Signal+
>> and Signal- and shield. Which, when carried over Cat5, should be all on
>> the shield.
>
>any midi has to carry 5v iirc. and midi is not balanced, so there is no
>signal+ and signal-. would be cool if there was - then 100m would be no
>problem :)

Preface, I am a C.E.T., and a broadcast engineer with 47 years time in the 
field.  Yeah, that and my 75 years age makes me an old fart. ;-)

Midi, by spec, is a current source, just enough to run the opto-isolator in 
the next piece of gear.  The rise and fall times become degraded by cable 
capacitance, eventually leading to timing errors.  AFAIK, no one has actually 
tried to run it using a low capacitance cable to extend the range.  In cat5, 
the twisted pair is probably only a slightly higher impedance than the 
microphone cables I have bought labeled as very expensive midi cable just 
because they had the right connectors on the end.  So it might go a little 
further than the store bought cables, but not by very much.

Another effect in the 4 twisted pair cat5 is crosstalk if using each pair as 
a different midi port, but I don't think that would show up before the signal 
lags ate the signals lunch.

Just for grins, I once changed the crystal in an rs232 interface so that it 
could be run at midi speeds, then hooked it up to a couple of different 
keyboards.  The polarity inherent in the opto-isolator inputs seemed to 
protect the input and I ran it that way for a couple years with no damages to 
either keyboard, or to the rs-232 ports hardware.

From an engineering standpoint, midi, designed as an idiot proof interface, 
has served us very well indeed.  But with cat5 all over the place and cheap 
as dirt, I am amazed that the gear makers haven't switched interfaces. Today, 
the average midi circuit is badly overloaded because its so slow. I've heard 
music that because of the note update rate, sounded like Floyd Cramer's 
piano, and it wasn't written that way...  Gigahertz ethernet can be run 
several hundred feet, with 200-2000x the data rate midi can manage.  Think of 
the possibilities that could open up.  Every instrument in a 200 piece 
orchestral construction getting its note on in the same millisecond.  That 
might be too perfect, too mechanical, but you get the idea.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [LAD] [semi-OT] midi snakes using CAT5?

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 02 November 2009, Arnold Krille wrote:
>On Monday 02 November 2009 00:56:15 Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Sunday 01 November 2009, Arnold Krille wrote:
>> >If you want to make use of the drilling of the pins in cat5, it should
>> > be 1+2 Midi 1
>> >3+6 Midi 2
>> >4+5 Midi 3
>> >7+8 Midi 4
>> >Why do you want to carry 5V? According to my docs, Midi is just Signal+
>> > and Signal- and shield. Which, when carried over Cat5, should be all on
>> > the shield.
>>
>> Except that I have yet to see a piece of cat5 with shielding.
>
>Look for that STP or S/UTP or FTP cables :-)
>
>Honestly all the cables I make myself are from (single-)shielded twisted
> pair. And except for the cheap cables that come with some devices, all the
> cables I buy are shielded too (with no extra costs).
>
>Unshielded is usable to connect that slow wlan-repeater that can't really
> go more then 10MBits but for anything else in networking you should used
> shielded cable.
>
>And as Jörn is asking about using it in professional surroundings, it will
>most definitely be the shielded cable he is using...
>
>Have fun,
>
>Arnold
>
FWIW, I have around 120 feet of unshielded cat5 stretched around my property, 
with 100mbit cards at all points, from a switch I can see here in my den, 
down into the basement and out through the same hole the telco cable comes 
in, under the back porch floor, and up the house wall to an anchor point on 
the porch roof, thence to an anchor point at the peak of a workshop shed I 
built 10 years ago, down to a 4 port switch in there, then from that another 
cable is currently running out the shop door and about 35 feet across the 
back yard to a window in the garage, and 20 some feet to a test machine.  I 
can move something from here to that last machine at 10megabytes/second.  
Std, unshielded cat5.The piece from the house to the shed has been 
swinging in the wind for about 6 years now, a never ending source of 
amazement to me that it hasn't failed.

My point is that the opto-isolation isn't required for ethernet since it is a 
transformer coupled differential circuit, therefore quite immune to 
longitudinal voltages caused by poor wiring practices, local high powered AM 
broadcasting signals etc.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
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If this is timesharing, give me my share right now.
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Re: [LAD] LADI

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 23 November 2009, Bob Ham wrote:
>On Sat, 2009-11-21 at 09:45 -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
>> I don't really care at all about the technology inside a Linux session
>> handling "toolkit", although clearly it would be nicer if it worked on
>> all Linux systems. What I care about is the complete lack of any
>> stable API that a developer of an application that would participate
>> in this could use and have some confidence in. Do I believe that using
>> dbus as an IPC mechanism makes sense in this case, and that therefore
>> "the API" is really just a set of dbus names and semantics? Well, i'm
>> agnostic about that
>
>I'd like to comment on this issue in order to clarify and also to
>explain why, as Nedko stated in his original email, I gave no support to
>D-Busification efforts.
>
>One of the goals of LADCCA, LASH and even LADISH is to enable
>network-wide session management.  A D-Bus connection enables
>communication between remote objects on a single bus.  However, that bus
>is limited to a single host.  Buses cannot span hosts.  In order to
>implement a network-aware session management system using D-Bus, there
>must necessarily be one of only two approaches.
>
>The first approach is to have one bus on one host which all clients and
>servers on all hosts connect to.  This is a star topology which has
>inherent weaknesses in terms of resilience.  I believe the robustness
>needed for a usable networked audio session cannot be provided using an
>IPC mechanism with a single point of failure.
>
>The second option is to have multiple buses; for each session client and
>server to open multiple D-Bus connections.  However, this introduces
>another layer of addressing.  In order for messages to be passed to a
>remote object, not only must you know the address of the object but the
>address of the bus to which it is connected.  This completely undermines
>the use of D-Bus.  D-Bus is an IPC mechanism for communication with
>remote objects that doesn't allow communication with remote objects on
>remote hosts.
>
>I have never understood why D-Bus was even considered for a network-wide
>audio session system.  It seems to me to be a case of all problems
>looking like a nail when you have a hammer.
>
Hop hip hooray!  Someone with an overview of the problem, and some 
understanding of the issues.

I have only a very small oar in this water as I represent just another sample 
of the fabled 'user'.  One who has been lurking here for many years, hoping 
someone will pluck his magic twanger and linux audio will Just Work(TM) 
forevermore.  As all of these lists readers are aware of, that hasn't 
happened.

But what I see all too often here are the clashes of personalities because 
each one thinks his idea should trump all others and be universally adopted 
by all.  This D-Bus thing is typical.  And when someone points out its 
weaknesses, he is more likely to be treated like somebody burning a religious 
book than as someone trying to steer to progress of this stateless ship.

So, I suggest that at the next audio summit, the discussion MUST be centered 
on the design of a messaging bus/protocol that is usable by all if enough 
pride can be swallowed by the protagonists, lay out the structures needed so 
that _everyone_ has a usable tool, and come home and write it!

The present situation, while far better than it was in 1997-8 when I did my 
first linux install, is still nowhere near a Just Works(TM) condition.  And 
what I read in my lurking here for much of a decade, is scarey.  So little 
mention of the system the top distros are shoving down our throats, 
pulseaudio, as if its being somehow profane to even mention it.  Hey, we all 
live on this same planet, remember?

So little co-operation and so much time spent whipping the horses that are 
trying to draw and quarter this thing called linux audio, each somehow 
thinking that when their team has pulled off its little piece, it will 
somehow be converted to a majority holding.  Like a 2nd place winner in a 
gunfight, it won't happen.

So lets start from scratch and build this universal bus, one that can handle 
a system with more than one piece that claims to be audio capable, in 
addition to being _local_ network transparent.  And then all the rest of the 
various factions here should get on this bus and use it.

You can, and probably will, ignore me.  In fact I expect it based on my 
observations so far.

Just an old (75) farts $0.02, who hopes he lives long enough to see it work.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


"Conversion, fastidious Goddess, loves blood better than brick, and feasts
most subtly on the human will."
-- Virginia Woolf, "Mrs. Dalloway"
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Re: [LAD] FOSS Ethernet Soundcard

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 24 November 2009, Adrian Knoth wrote:
>On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 09:48:53AM +0100, Karl Hammar wrote:
>> So ich habe mal was zusammengedichtet 
>>
>> > > The rationale in brief:
>> > > No proprietry hardware soundcard needed.
>> > > Almost all modern computers have reasonably fast Ethernet
>> > > connections.
>> >
>> > Don't know how much you already did for the hardware layout. If
>> > possible, try to avoid analog stuff, that is, ADC/DAC.
>>
>> You don't say why we should avoid analog stuff.
>
>Like always: Analog parts are hard to build. You need to calibrate your
>circuits, you have tolerances in almost every component, you need a lot
>of knowledge to manufacture a high-quality ADC/DAC.
>
>This is stuff you could easily avoid if you just outsource the whole
>ADC/DAC to a company which has the skills to do this. Luckily, there's
>ADAT: eight channels of audio over a single, optical link. So all you
>would need is one or more ADAT jacks somehow attached to your computer.
>
>Even better: studios usually have ADAT-ADC/DAC around, they're only
>looking for a way to get the data from/to the computer. If you want to
>win the whole pro-audio scene for this project, just provide ADAT plugs.
>
>The cheapest ADAT ADC/DAC I know is the Behringer ADA8000:
>
>   http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_ultragain_pro8_digital_ada8000.htm
>
>There is better gear around, e.g., the Apogee Rosetta converters or the
>RME ADI line:
>
>   http://www.thomann.de/gb/apogee_rosetta_800_24192khz.htm
>
>   http://www.thomann.de/gb/rme_adi_8_qsm.htm
>
>
>
>Don't get me wrong, but I guess you cannot match their level of quality.
>And I don't see why one should fiddle around with soldering some crappy
>analog ports when he has decent studio gear around or can buy
>good-enough quality like the Behringer ADA8000.
>
>And while we are at it: RME and Apogee often also don't even dare to
>provide a preamp, because the studio guys have better stuff around:
>
>   http://www.thomann.de/gb/avalon_ad2022_preamp.htm
>
>The preamp makes the music. If you feed your 4000EUR Neumann M149
>microphone into an Avalon, all you need is a decent A/D conversion and
>you're halfway done with your radio production. ;)
>
>Sometimes, these preamps come with builtin A/D converters. That's what I
>use:
>
>   http://www.thomann.de/gb/focusrite_liquid_4_pre.htm
>
>See it? It reads "ADAT I/O". If the FOSS soundcard provides an
>IP-to-ADAT converter with zero latency mixing facilities and builtin DSP
>effects, you'd be the man! You could instantly sell numbers of units, it
>would be the perfect onstage mix/split/monitoring solution.
>
>> > I'm also somewhat interested in the network part, I feel IPv6 could
>> > help a lot. It supports autoconfiguration and it has decent multicast
>> > support, so it would be possible to broadcast/multicast the streams on
>> > the net (LAN). This could be useful if you want to access the stream at
>> > a mixing console for a life setup and simultaneously record it on a
>> > computer.
>>
>> At a live recording you probably have only your own gear connected to
>> the lan. In that case you can easily assign ip-adresses at will and to
>> your own taste. I don't see how IPv6 vs. IPv4 could matter at all.
>
>Come on, we're talking about a new development here. New development
>should never ever focus on IPv4, IPv6 has been there since 1998.
>
>Manually assigning an IPv4 address feels so 1990s and increases
>complexity. With IPv6, you just put your device on the net and it gets
>a link-local address, that is, fe80:MAC-Address. (it's not exactly the
>MAC-Address, but it's derived from it).
>
>No need to assign anything, you're instantly ready to go. And you have
>link-local multicast (read: broadcast in IPv4 terminology). Just use an
>address starting with ff02 and send your streams to it. Everyone
>subscribed to this address would receive it.
>
>I have a jack client streaming/receiving IPv6 multicast streams. It's so
>easy. No configuration at all, I just fire up the application and I'm
>ready to stream. I don't even care about the other addresses used on
>this LAN.
>
>Let's talk about discovery: how do you intend to find your devices on
>the net? With IPv6 multicast, all soundcards could statically listen on
>ff02::dead:beef. Then, the workstation sends its discovery packet to
>ff02::dead:beef, all cards receive it and respond (connect back) to the
>source IP (or an IP given in the packet, but that's not even necessary)
>
>In other words: A single address is sufficient to trigger the callbacks.
>The cards tell the workstation about their very own IPv6 multicast
>streaming address, and the workstation simply has to tune in. There you
>go. Streaming and discovery within approx. 200 lines of code.
>
>Perhaps it's even a good idea to provide a master clock on an IPv6
>multicast address, but clocks are a separate issue (in a studio, the
>workstation would probably slave to some decent specialised clock, e.g.,
>Apogee Big Ben)
>
>[RockNe

Re: [LAD] FOSS Ethernet Soundcard

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 24 November 2009, Adrian Knoth wrote:
>On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 04:46:02PM +0100, Karl Hammar wrote:
>> Well, you have to start somewhere. I'm not in this to compete with
>> Behringer ADA8000, I'm in this to fiddle around with soldering.
>
>WTF? Soldering is what it takes to make the product. If soldering is the
>motivation for the project, I couldn't care less. ;)

Yes, but without those of us to whom a hot soldering iron is just as valuable 
a tool as the ubitiquous dual channel 100 mhz triggered, computerized scope 
is (I have both, and know well how to use them), all your ideas are just 
that, an abstraction that will wait for that hot soldering iron to bring it 
to life.  Only then will you know what it will take and can write the 
software.

>OTOH, as Gene has pointed out, a completely open source protocol
>replacing ADAT is a valid motivation, so the HQ guys could still jump
>the band waggon once the protocol has settled.
>
>(given that it will ever make its way)

That is why the enthusiasm on my part. Barring under influence by the Apples 
and Microsofts extant, a truly royalty free, available from off the shelf 
parts, interface really should replace the rest of these wanna be bus's as 
soon as the old stuff's limitations begin to be an artistic limit.  That of 
course depends on the state of the individual studio, with some input from 
the tax and amortization schedules extant in that locale.

Given a level playing field, something we all know the Apples and M$'s of the 
world abhor with all their considerable bank accounts and lawyers, this could 
be a working reality in 5 years, and dominant in 10.  And the state of audio 
production would be considerably better off.

Of course I'm preaching to the choir, but one has to start someplace.  The 
more members the choir has, the louder they can sing. :)

>> One question tough. If you have ADAT, why go the longer way over an
>> ADAT-to-ethernet box than straight into your adat card in your computer?
>> What would one gain?

Don't have the ADAT, so I cannot begin to answer that in a sensible way.

>I could then place multiple ADAT converters on the net, combine their
>capacity without using MADI (64 channels over one cable), copy the
>signal at the FOH (front-of-house, mixing desk), feed every musician
>with his personal monitoring stream and record it.

At what cost in ADAT capable boxes?

>Today, RockNet does this, all audio distribution networks do this, but
>they are expensive. My impression was you want to provide this kind of
>functionality for less money.

Eggzactly. Lowest common denominator.

>If I could save the MADI card and just plug the network cable into my
>el-cheapo network card, I would have a gain.
>
>> uint48_t ethernet_addr;
>> uint32_t ip_addr = 192 << 24 | 168 << 16 | ethernet_addr & 0x;
>
>I'd probably slap you when come up with code like this. ;) This is
>lacking abstraction.
>
>For those who haven't heard, yet: An IP address isn't an uint32_t. This
>is the road to hell, leads to unportable code.

Thanks for pointing that out.

>But since I'm working for the networking chair at Jena University, let
>me tell you that the right structure for an IP address is
>
>   struct sockaddr_storage
>
>Nothing else. Don't even dare to shift bits in an uint32_t. Things like
>this might have been right in the 90ties, but we had RFC 3493 in
>February 2003 (and RFC 2553 in 1999). ;) (things might be different when
>we're talking kernel level)
>
>
>As mentioned in the original posting: if I could provide some input, I'd
>happily do this. It's probably a good idea to decide on the goals,
>first, but I might have missed that part of the discussion.

I think this might be the beginnings of _that_ discussion.

>Cheerio

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


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take one along that worked.
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Re: [LAD] FOSS Ethernet Soundcard

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 06 December 2009, Pieter Palmers wrote:
[...]

>Greets,
>
>Pieter
>
>PS: I didn't want to go into the USB vs FireWire debate, there's plenty
>of material on that. But I think that even USB is a better idea than
>ethernet, not because its technically superior but because there is a
>better ecosystem for audio+usb.

At the expense of a truly horrible latency built into the usb specs.  In 
another field (my interests are best described as eclectic), involving far 
less data at a time than audio, machine control, aka cnc milling and similar 
operations where the machine must be under the computers control at sub-
millisecond intervals for servo's and  < 50 microsecond intervals for stepper 
motors, those who have tried to go down the usb road have generally failed 
rather miserably.  So that road is both well traveled and has been found 
wanting. 100 millisecond latency's just cannot be tolerated for that usage.

Ethernet is everywhere, and is one of the reasons my previous messages 
favored it.  Unforch, while I grant that firewire is hands down superior, and 
I have a couple of ports here, it is apparently a totally daisy chain 
topology from a single host port,  and AIUI, cable lengths are very limited 
in comparison to ethernet.  However there is a 6 port 'hub' at 
 ($38.99)
to expand the limited number (usually 1 or 2) of ports found on todays 
motherboards, and the total cable length to 9 meters, and even the pluggin 
cards available seem to be limited to 4 ports.  I see that for 1394b, cables 
up to 32 feet are available but at the price I'd have to assume there is a 
booster hub in the middle.  With pricy optical convertors, to 3/8's mile 
using glass fiber. (actually it is probably plastic if it has that length 
limitation, glass, good glass, checked out at .4 db loss over 39 kilometers 
when we fed the local cable systems from our studios, several years ago now.  

ATM out of 6 mobo USB ports and 6 hubs making branches as deep as 4 sub-hubs, 
I have only 7 open sockets.  And I don't believe my usb map is anywhere near 
a record setter.

Were there a firewire audio gizmo on site, I might have it working too, so go 
build one, I'm waiting. (and don't forget the daisy chain, most folks ignore 
it) The first port here is for my movie camera, which kino generally runs 
quite nicely, with very nearly realtime video and audio, only a slight echo 
between the speaker on the camera and my speakers. :)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


 Kgnghtbrd: I wouldn't kow, I see no need for a spellchecker yet
 you were saying?
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Re: [LAD] FOSS Ethernet Soundcard

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 06 December 2009, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>On 12/07/2009 05:36 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> ATM out of 6 mobo USB ports and 6 hubs making branches as deep as 4
>> sub-hubs, I have only 7 open sockets.  And I don't believe my usb map is
>> anywhere near a record setter.
>
>Slightly off topic but...
>
Whats a 'topic' Patrick? :)

>I have had the pleasure of working with multiple usb devices (in the
>1000's) and I can say that I was able to get a 4 core, intel with 8GB
>RAM to handle 500 devices at the same time with additonal pci->usb
>cards. The only ones worth any time are made by Belkin. To stream data
>to so many devices at one time you need a lot of available memory. 2GB
>will handle about 100 devices nicely without sacrificing any transfer
> speed.
>
>A single USB 7 port hub can be made to chain 1x7 port hub-> 7 x 7 port
>hub-> 1 x 4 port hub to give a total of 50 devices at one time. You can
>modularise this chain to get 100 devices running off 1 usb bus. I have
>my systems installed at La Louvre for instance where they are running
>very well.
>
>I had no chance to test latency for audio recording but from my
>experience there are only two usb-2.0 chips on the market that get
>anywhere near the 480Mb/s bandwidth available for usb-2.0 and they are
>both used by Belkin.
>

And those chips ident themselves as?

>My experience with usb cable lengths > 3 meters is that they require a
>booster.

Which is generally seen as a hub in an lsusb, they just don't socket out the 
other 3 ports.  I had 2 of the FDTI versions, but the far end wasn't exactly 
on the same circuit, and a wandering lightning strike took one of them out, 
so now I have a powered hub plugged into the remaining good extension cable 
with 3 of its ports in use when an eldlerly coco3 is powered up, and that has 
been working nicely for about a year now.  All my usb-serial stuff is FDTI, 
the pl2303 stuff is pure crap as we found on the heyu mailing list.

I'm glad to hear Belkin stuff is working well, but I'd almost expect that 
since they had a heavy hand in the original USB specs.  Too bad their UPS's 
don't adhere to it.

Its also worth note that Belkin has a real and obnoxious screw you attitude 
about linux over in the UPS division. They make, or relabel, a darned good 
UPS, and it would be very nice if we could actually talk to it from linux.  
Unforch, their latest monitor software, BullDog, was built on an RH-5.2 
system, and turns into a 100% of all cores cpu hog on a 2.4 or 2.6 SMP 
kernel.

Attempts to get them to rebuild it for newer linux's have been made, 
including giving us the src so we can.  Their return msgs will answer every 
question with boilerplate, except about the BullDog software for linux, those 
questions are trimmed from the replies and ignored.  Obviously my next UPS 
when these batteries have failed will have a label on it that is known linux 
friendly, like APC.

>Patrick Shirkey
>Boost Hardware Ltd

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
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Re: [LAD] GUI for audio application

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 29 December 2009, Peter Nelson wrote:
>On Tue, 2009-12-29 at 22:57 +0800, Ray Rashif wrote:
>> So hold your horses, something's up. Where? Here:
>> http://calf.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=calf/calf;a=tree;f=gui;h
>>b=20a7d0fb06da3c6c48738e4521f24700c5adaf01
>>
>> And someone leaked this: http://foltman.com/Deesser.png
>>
>> 5/5 :O
>
>Very shiny. However, pretty useless as far as screen real-estate goes.
>100 or so pixels either side for 'screws' is not necessary either.

On a crowded audio workstation screen, the attempt at a 4/3 ratio for the 
curve display seems to be a bit of overfill too.  So I agree with the screws 
comment, real estate for the vitals only please.  I would rather see that 
curve section shrink 50 pixels in favor of making that row of teeny knobs 
easier to grab.  Or better yet make them horizontal sliders.

But I do have to admit its 'purty' , very nice imagery, so congratulations on 
the composition. ;)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

When a fly lands on the ceiling, does it do a half roll or a half loop?
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Re: [LAD] hard realtime performance synth

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 25 January 2010, Jens M Andreasen wrote:
>On Mon, 2010-01-25 at 09:25 +, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>> What 16 thousand million? Who said there was no money in electronic
>> music instruments?
>
>Yes it does sound a bit excessive, doesn't it? According to the same
>website, Roland is selling for $40 billion. This includes their Video
>gear though.
>
>And then again, Yamaha is selling for only $4 billion, which is highly
>surprising compared to the two others?! Did something get lost in
>translation? Are these figures really Taiwan or Hong Kong dollars? Yen?
>
>Roland is publically traded and hence publish their key data, which
>tells us that their sales for 2009 were at ¥100,506,864,000 (Yen!) which
>then again still translates to around a billion US dollars - but nowhere
>near the forty like it was quoted in the link I gave yesterday.
>Sorry ...

Please, don't forget that the audio/video market isn't the only one they are 
heavily involved in.  My next door neighbor is in the graphic arts business 
and supplies probably 50% of the fancy paint and decal business to the race 
car owners for a couple of states in all directions, and also makes a large 
proportion of the local signage.  His tools include a couple of Roland decal 
cutters that cost him into the 6th digit to buy, and which still cost him 
somewhere in the low 5th digit for maintenance contracts per year.  Not to 
mention expendables that probably run well towards the 6th digit a year.
So they are worth more than what the audio folks might consider just for what 
the audio folks know about them.

>Roland:  $1 billion
>http://www.corporateinformation.com/Company-Snapshot.aspx?cusip=C39242560
>
>Yamaha:  $4 billion
>http://www.corporateinformation.com/Company-Snapshot.aspx?cusip=C39283560
>
>Kawai: $1/2 billion
>http://www.corporateinformation.com/Company-Snapshot.aspx?cusip=C392AK960
>
>
>My guess is that KORG would be selling maybe like Kawai? (while of
>course targetting an entirely different market.)
>
>In any case, $16 billion does not sound reasonable.
>
>
>
>... And now back to our regular programming:
>
> "How to make useful musical instruments out of the techno-trash others
>have thrown in the dumpster?"
>
>> On 24 Jan 2010, at 15:06, Jens M Andreasen wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2010-01-24 at 17:46 +0300, Louigi Verona wrote:
>> >> I read about this Korg OASYS ...
>> >>
>> >> ... Proprietary world is so full of wasted efforts, imho.
>> >
>> > The 290 employees at KORG is raking in a cool $16,419.7 million in
>> > annual sales from their efforts, so they might deviate just slightly
>> > from our most humble opinions.
>> >
>> > :-D
>> >
>> > http://www.hoovers.com/company/Korg_Inc/rfcjhyi-1.html
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
>> > http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
>
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-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

Take it easy, we're in a hurry.
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Re: [LAD] Smallest, simplest, silliest SDR?

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 27 February 2010, Folderol wrote:
>On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 00:50:07 +
>
>Gordon JC Pearce  wrote:
>> On Sun, 2010-02-28 at 01:41 +0100, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>> > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:40:00AM +, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
>> > > I wanted a very simple SDR with jack inputs and outputs for a
>> > > demonstration I was doing.  I had a look at the DSP guts of dttsp and
>> > > quisk, and sat down to code.
>> >
>> > Forgive my ignorance, but what is an SDR ?
>>
>> Software-Defined Radio.  Basically you downmix incoming RF to the audio
>> range with two mixers fed 90 degrees out of phase.  You can then munge
>> this in various different ways to tune and demodulate various different
>> radio signals.
>>
>> Gordon MM0YEQ
>
>Sounds suspiciously like some form of quadrature demodulator. Rather
>like GEC/Sobel introduced with their 1018 TV chassis in the 1960s.
>Oh how we laughed ...

Why were you laughing?  Zenith did this, with a self excited circuit, using a 
type 6BN6 gated beam tube to recover the audio directly from the 4.5 mhz 
inter carrier frequency, starting in the fall of '51 with the intro of the 
'52 model year.  It worked fairly well too.  Stable, not sensitive to the 
fine tuning setting, so folks out in the fringes could tune for a slightly 
better if not as sharp a pix.

I even made a minor improvement to the circuit that reduced the AM 
sensitivity noticeably that was incorporated into the next 3 years production 
runs.  I was all of 17 at the time and working in the service dept., the only 
one, at a zenith wholesaler.

It still, like all tv's of the day, had some synch buzz, and it took the FCC 
35 damned years to let us broadcasters fix that.  As the CE of a tv station, 
one of the things I did when they allowed us to experimentally reduce the 
aural transmitters power output from 100% of visual to 20%, was to try 10% on 
the sly, which helped even more.  Then a year or so after I came to WV, I 
thought 5% might be worth a try, but couldn't get even a bad final tube that 
low, so I bypassed it one night, saving us many KW a day in electricity since 
the final took 12 volts at 180 amps (2160 watts/hour just to light it up, and 
used about 10KW/hour in high voltage draw) which took it down to about 900 
watts from the driver stage output, compared to 26kw of visual, figuring I 
would hook it back up if the phone started ringing.

18 years later the phone still hadn't rung.  The tubes were out of production 
& tired, and it was down to about 500 watts when we turned it off (NTSC) for 
good.  Nary a complaint in all that time about weak signal, not even from the 
cable folks.

Quadrature detection works, and there are even some integrated circuits that 
do that, they take an fm signal in, need about 6 parts including a tuned coil 
circuit for the frequency of the fm input, work at less than 1% THD at 4.5 
mhz with its +-25khz modulation, or about 1% THD at 10.7 mhz with its wider 
modulation.  If you need any lower THD than that, go find a 50 year old 
McIntosh C8 tuner and restore it.  They were, in their day, the absolute 
cream of the crop and to my extended knowledge, such performance has never 
been even close to duplicated at any price, and that one was con$iderable 
when new in '60.

Yeah, I'll plead guilty to being an old fart, 75 now.  And its been one hell 
of a ride to get to this day.  Mostly enjoyable, I'd do it again almost 
exactly as it happened.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

I did this 'cause Linux gives me a woody.  It doesn't generate revenue.
-- Dave '-ddt->` Taylor, announcing DOOM for Linux
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Re: [LAD] Smallest, simplest, silliest SDR?

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 27 February 2010, Tim E. Real wrote:
>On February 27, 2010 07:50:07 pm Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
>> On Sun, 2010-02-28 at 01:41 +0100, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>> > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:40:00AM +, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
>> > > I wanted a very simple SDR with jack inputs and outputs for a
>> > > demonstration I was doing.  I had a look at the DSP guts of dttsp and
>> > > quisk, and sat down to code.
>> >
>> > Forgive my ignorance, but what is an SDR ?
>>
>> Software-Defined Radio.  Basically you downmix incoming RF to the audio
>> range with two mixers fed 90 degrees out of phase.  You can then munge
>> this in various different ways to tune and demodulate various different
>> radio signals.
>>
>> Gordon MM0YEQ
>>
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>
>I read about this in Nuts And Volts magazine.
>They describe in some detail how SDR works and neat DSP techniques
> in general.
>I searched the web but could only seem to find Windows related stuff.
>Some more Linux stuff would be cool.
>One still needs to build or buy a front-end first though, right?
>
>Tim.

Build it.  In 1975, RCA was making an IC for the FM detector that claimed
  <0.1% distortion and at least a 60db SNR for tv and fm radio rx use, the 
type CA3089-E.  They were about $3 the last time I bought a onsie.  14 pin 
dip package.  I would imagine that even better integrated circuits are 
available today for that.  That one needed a superhet front end that could 
give it 400 microvolts to achieve that <0.1% THD, and delivered about 400 
millivolts of audio.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

When God endowed human beings with brains, He did not intend to guarantee 
them.
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Re: [LAD] Smallest, simplest, silliest SDR?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 28 February 2010, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
>On Mon, 2010-03-01 at 01:13 +0100, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>> It's similar to Steve Harris' Bode Shifter plugin,
>> except that this takes a single (real) signal and
>> converts it to complex internally using a Hilbert
>> transform.
>
>That's an interesting point - I should look at that again.  The trouble
>is, I'm so bad at maths my Hilbert Transformer developed shorted
>turns...
>
So did mine Gordon, heck, while I know what it is, and that its symetrical, I 
could write an FFT or even a butterfly transform with a gun to my head.  But 
I have sure made heavy use of gear that can do it over the years.

>Gordon MM0YEQ
>
>
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-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

Aren't we lucky our documentation is so sparse noone can accuse us of being
inconsistent? 8)

- Rusty Russell on linux-kernel
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Re: [LAD] Smallest, simplest, silliest SDR?

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 01 March 2010, Folderol wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 22:50:02 -0500
>
>Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> On Saturday 27 February 2010, Folderol wrote:
>> >On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 00:50:07 +
>> >
>> >Gordon JC Pearce  wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 2010-02-28 at 01:41 +0100, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>> >> > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:40:00AM +, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
>> >> > > I wanted a very simple SDR with jack inputs and outputs for a
>> >> > > demonstration I was doing.  I had a look at the DSP guts of dttsp
>> >> > > and quisk, and sat down to code.
>> >> >
>> >> > Forgive my ignorance, but what is an SDR ?
>> >>
>> >> Software-Defined Radio.  Basically you downmix incoming RF to the
>> >> audio range with two mixers fed 90 degrees out of phase.  You can then
>> >> mung this in various different ways to tune and demodulate various
>> >> different radio signals.
>> >>
>> >> Gordon MM0YEQ
>> >
>> >Sounds suspiciously like some form of quadrature demodulator. Rather
>> >like GEC/Sobel introduced with their 1018 TV chassis in the 1960s.
>> >Oh how we laughed ...
>>
>> Why were you laughing?  Zenith did this, with a self excited circuit,
>> using a type 6BN6 gated beam tube to recover the audio directly from the
>> 4.5 mhz inter carrier frequency, starting in the fall of '51 with the
>> intro of the '52 model year.  It worked fairly well too.  Stable, not
>> sensitive to the fine tuning setting, so folks out in the fringes could
>> tune for a slightly better if not as sharp a pix.
>
>< snip .. very interesting stuff actually :) >
>
>That must have been in the USA I guess, over here the intercarrier is
>6MHz
>
>Us young 'uns laughed on two levels.
>
>The first was that most of us didn't have a clue how the things worked,
>due to pathetic instruction from our employers (I'm looking at you
>Radio Rentals). When asked what, exactly, quadrature demodulation was,
>there was a pregnant pause after which the instructor said 'Well it's
>demod in quadrature of course' then swiftly moved on to the next topic.
>
>Our next cause of merriment was the horrendous EH90 heptode (yes I did
>say heptode) implementation. See, it scarred as all so badly I can
>still remember the precise details!
>
>The screen feed was via an 18k - 5k6 potential divider, only there was
>something very strange about the composition resistors used for this.
>In the first place they were under-rated (especially the 18k. If you did
>the math you could prove it. Secondly, where resistors normally go
>high if they overheat these went low, so a nice little thermal runaway
>ensued. This actually set fire to the (paxolin) PCB, burning a hole
>through it. If you were very unlucky it also cooked up a wirewound
>resistor further along the board, which then de-soldered itself, arced
>and burned another hole in the board.
>
>In those days we were expected to fix these things on site, so after
>scraping out all the carbon, you were left with point-to-point wiring
>across the gaping holes, supporting the replacement components as best
>you could.
>
>Such fun we had!
>
The 6BN6 was what was called a gated beam tube, with the #1 grid being driven 
by the somewhat am limited carrier (4.5, 6 or 10.7mhz, I believe it worked 
well at all those freqs)  Half a volt to a volt of signal IIRC although its 
now been 50 years since I probed the circuit with a scope.  The 3rd grid, 
after the screen grid, was also quite closely spaced so that it had decent 
gain also, and a tuned circuit with a Q selected according to the expected 
bandwidth was tied from this grid to ground.  Space charges drove this grid 
by the coupling effect of the electron beam going by, and natural resonance 
effects saw to it that its voltage lagged (or led, its been years) the driven 
grids voltage by about 90 degrees electrically.  The end result was a pulse 
duration modulation of the plate current because the tuned circuit lagged the 
input signal by an amount dependent on the instantaneous frequency.

Actual plate current in this tube was only 1 to 1.5 milliamps, so there 
wasn't really a large amount of power being handled.  Screen (grid #2) 
current was maybe 3 milliamps, so the developed audio voltage wasn't too 
large and they usually had another medium gain small triode to bring it up to 
a level suitable for driving a 6V6 or similar output stage that gave about 2 
watts of reasonably clean audio to drive the speaker(s).

In solid state, RCA made a CA3089E for several decades that worked on a 
similar principle, but mopped the floor with a 6BN6 because of its superior 
performance.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

The future is a race between education and catastrophe.
-- H.G. Wells
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Re: [LAD] Smallest, simplest, silliest SDR?

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 01 March 2010, Tim E. Real wrote:
>"Solder-head: Rhyme of the repair technician"  Version 0.0.0.1
>
>I
> made my bread for many years, all
> circuits known to man. From
> USA and Britain, and from
> Sweden and Japan.
>
>When
> cheap hi-tech met lust for crap, I
> could no longer face it. For
> everything today my friend, is
> module replacement!
>
>I'm
> thankful for computer skills, they
> might keep me afloat. I
> wrote this application, in
> which I wrote this note.
>
Chuckle, yes, you will eat I believe.  Whether its from the talent as a code 
monger, or as a poet, remains to be seen. ;-)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

Life is a concentration camp.  You're stuck here and there's no way
out and you can only rage impotently against your persecutors.
-- Woody Allen
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Re: [LAD] automation on Linux (modular approach)

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 20 March 2010, alex stone wrote:
>I'm not sure the gist of the thread has been adhered to, but as
>someone who has sidetracked the odd thread in my enthusiasm, i'm no
>saint either.
>
>Nevertheless, citing ardour as the ultimate answer doesn't address the
>intent of the thread, which as i understand it was a question
>concerning the continuity of data streaming across apps.
>And although Ardour is a fine app, it's automation can be frustrating
>to use, for me at least. I've had a taste of using an alternative, and
>it's a lot easier to use, in my particular use case.
>
>The weight of alternate responses seems to be geared toward a precise
>definition of the use of automation, for a particular use case, which
>is outside of the worklfow of some. That immediately narrows the
>options for users, and forces those of use who work in a different way
>into "this is the way it is, and you'll have to find a workaround."
>Hardly the stuff of building a modular setup, with linux infinitely
>variable in the opportunities it offers to bolt things together in a
>manner the user wishes to exploit.
>
>I've been hammering away at midi since it started, and in the process
>of recording with midi driven projects, i discovered the following:
>
>1.) Users do as much as they can in midi, before they record to audio.
>In the hands of an experienced user, a project can be "tuned" to a
>fairly decent result, before the recording to audio begins.
>
>2.) No matter how much a user does to fine tune the midi, and there
>are some fine midi charts out there, the user still has to edit the
>audio after it's recorded, to further tweak the result into a closer
>resemblance of human playing. This is successful to varying degrees,
>dependent on the skills of the user, and what level of excellence he
>or she wishes to strive for, but in the case of recording orchestral
>work, it's been my experience that sorting out the velocities in the
>midi chart, and then using automation for audio to emulate swells, and
>smooth volume transitions gives the best result, generally speaking.
>
>3.) Contrary to popular belief, midi is not the panacea for automation
>control. It's widespread adoption is more to do with the decisions
>taken by devs and companies in the commercial world, when midi finally
>got past the angst of commercial operators having to agree on
>something. As a protocol to render smooth automated lines, it too does
>its job with varying degrees of success. But it doesn't effectively
>render the smoothness associated with live playing. I know this as a
>former orchestral player, and have on many occasions had to render
>dozens of takes, simply to layer together enough audio to manipulate
>into some semblance of natural playing.
>
>4.) Midi is a multiplexed format. If the user wants to automate using
>one single data stream, then like it or not, he is using 1 port=16
>channels =0-127 bits of control data. In my recent tests, the CV data
>i wrote and used to automate a line gave a far smoother transition,
>from 0.0-1.0, and that was a single data stream. No extra channels, or
>the stepped result of using a defined data jump from 0 to 1 to 2 to 3,
>etc... On top of this, the user has to sort out which channel they're
>going to use, where they're going to send it, and which channel in
>which port they're going to attach it to.
>
>5.) It's also my experience that users i've communicated with over
>many years, who write from midi recorded into audio, are likely going
>to write automation for volume, and maybe a little pan from time to
>time. This is very much dependent on the use case, but it's fair to
>say that those who require as smooth a volume change as possible don't
>get it using midi, at least to a decent standard of excellence. Again,
>relying on those years of use, and a fair degree of objectivity, i was
>enthused by the smoothness of using a CV stream to render volume
>transitions. One of those long held wishes that has come to life, and
>saved me a stack of donkey work in the process.
>
>6.) Crossfading is neither here not there in a discussion about
>automation. It's the province of an app to provide an effective
>crossfade framework, something Ardour does well i might add.
>
>7.) For electronic music writers in particular, but also for the wider
>user base, manipulating an external synth (and we are discussing a
>modular setup, yes?) via CV lanes seems to be an opportunity waiting
>to happen. The user adds a lane, names it to the control he wants to
>manipulate, and goes to work, recording smooth automation lines and
>getting the weird and sometimes original result from the synth. That's
>it. Add a lane, port it to a control and name it for easy recognition
>in the project. Couldn't be easier. and there's no "steps" (0-127)
>when the control is changed.
>
>8.) I'm not wasting anymore valuable time on this,as it's clear any
>effort to do so would be futile in the face of the current status quo,
>and the intent to keep th

Re: [LAD] automation on Linux (modular approach)

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 20 March 2010, Paul Davis wrote:
>On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
>> It is now at least 15 years past due for a new, far faster, and more
>> expressive protocol.  Something based on the TOS connector or similar
>> relatively inexpensive hardware interface that can handle 100x midi's
>> traffic on a single, daisy chain-able connection.  I'd suggest 1394B, but
>> in a setup and tear down every night scenario, I don't see that as being
>> as rugged as a plastic optical fiber.
>
>uhmmm ... MIDI over USB or MIDI over ethernet is as flexible and fast
>as what you suggest, and already exist. The transport and physical
>layer aspects of MIDI are already going away. What remains is the
>actual message format and contents.
>
>--p

Which is in bad need of a major overhaul itself as I stated.  What I'd like 
to see is a new protocol statement prepared and an RFQ issued, so that the 
whole industry could continue to 'stay on the same page'.

And I just discovered that you sent it privately, but kmail filtered on the 
address and put it in the LAD folder.  No matter.

At the same time, I don't really have a working oar in this discussion, its 
more of a comment along the lines of not seeing history repeat some of its 
uglier mistakes over the last 75 years I have been observing it. ;-)

Take Care Paul.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

Wash: "Can I suggest something that doesn't involve violence, or is this the
wrong crowd for that?"
--"Serenity"
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Re: [LAD] automation on Linux (modular approach)

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 23 March 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>James Morris wrote:
>> I'm with Louigi on this - I'd like to set up a sequence in whatever
>> sequencer I'm using and draw graphs to control cut-offs modulations etc
>> etc in some softsynth BEFORE the sound is output/recorded.
>>
>> But because I can't do this, I have to settle with recording the audio of
>> the synth into ardour, and then use automation to control the params of
>> various LV2/LADSPA plugins. It has provided some interesting (to me)
>> results :-)
>>
>>
>> http://jwm-art.net/art/audio/qtest_fallibility.mp3
>>
>> but I doubt the engineers (or real musicians) amongst you will approve.
>>
>> James.
>
>Hi James :)

Likewise, Hi James.  I thought the percussion was very good, but the keyboard 
came in, then the mp3 distortion was obvious and I killed it.  But the kill 
wasn't clean and I had to hunt the player down with htop and kill the top 
copy of the player, it was left looping about a bar.  I wonder if a FLAC or 
ogg would have torn up the keyboard sound like that?  I'd like to try one of 
those formats myself as it did sound like the beginnings of something worth 
listening to.

>very good composition, very good arrangement and a good recording. I
>really do like it, a FLAC or WAV for private listening is welcome :).
>I planed to do something similar using Linux. Using hardware synth
>controlled by the ATARI ST Cubase SysEx Windows to record changes for
>the filters etc. and using an anlog mixer a song like yours is easy to do.
>Perhaps this SysEx thing is needed for Linux sequencers too.
>Anyway, you were able to this recording using Linux.
>
>Cheers!
>Ralf

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

It is no wonder that people are so horrible when they start life as children.
-- Kingsley Amis
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Re: [LAD] A small article about tools for electronic musicians

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 April 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Louigi Verona wrote:
>> Hey Lorenzo!
>>
>> The point is not extreme. It deals with music which requires sound
>> manipulation. Thanks to everybody's feedback, I might change the
>> wording to better explain what I mean. As stated in the article, by
>> electronic musician there I mean a musician who manipulates sound.
>> Usually, it is ambient-kinda music, like this:
>> http://www.louigiverona.ru/?page=projects&s=music&t=catalogue&num=5
>> 
>>
>> If you listen to that, it is a whole class of electronic music. Having
>> an app like Rakarrack is key for that kind of music - in fact, it is
>> all about transforming sounds, there are no melodies in a strict sense
>> of the word.
>> Prior to Rakarrack I was on my way to installing Windows XP on another
>> laptop for music. Now that plan is put to a halt.
>>
>> So my article is for a rather niche kind of composers, but it is a
>> niche I want the devs to know about.
>>
>> L.V.
>
>I exactly was thinking about music similar to
>http://www.louigiverona.ru/?page=projects&s=music&t=catalogue&num=0, so
>there's no misunderstanding.

That is quite listenable music IMO, but on my system, seems to be suffering 
from sign reversals on some notes. Pulse Audio system of course so its also 
full of other, unrelated ticks and pops.  Neither are the musics fault IMO.  
Listening to Daydream Sessions.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
HOST SYSTEM RESPONDING, PROBABLY UP...
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[LAD] Need to unsub, but server is down.

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings;

Can someone go look at lists.linuxaudio.org?  The bottom line of the message 
is timing out.

Thanks.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
"Live or die, I'll make a million."
-- Reebus Kneebus, before his jump to the center of the earth, Firesign 
Theater
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Re: [LAD] A little quiz about audio measurements...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 28 May 2010, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>This week I had to perform measurements on a audio
>interface, and this resulted in some quite interesting
>results. Before revealing what happened, I'll let you
>have a look at some of the data and come up with your
>own conclusions, see
>
>
>
>(Free beer at the next LAC for the best analysis)
>
>Ciao,
>
My guess is that it could be related to crosstalk, and the nominally 100hz 
component is the digitization delay.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
  I never liked you, and I always will. -Samuel Goldwyn
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Re: [LAD] A little quiz about audio measurements...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 28 May 2010, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 11:24:29PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> Oberhausen, Rheinland, Germany; power line frequency right now is at
>> 49 Hz, measured with a low cost energy consumption costs meter.
>> Those low cost meters shouldn't be able to do correct measurements
>> ;). The best test at home might be to compare the sound of a
>> transformer with a 50 Hz sine wave.
>
>49 Hz is impossible. It would mean that a clock using this
>frequency would be slow by more than a minute per hour.
>
>Long-term accuracy is extremely high, precisely because clocks
>depend on it. And since almost all of Europe is interconnected,
>adjusting the frequency must be a _very_ slow process. So errors
>of 2 percent really can't be tolerated.
>
>Ciao,
>
I beg to differ a bit.  But this is also OT, sorry.

I can recall an instance while I was C.E.ing at KIVA-tv in Farminfton NM, in 
the later 70's that was certainly odd to say the least.  We had come off the 
network into kiddie hour in the afternoon, with my operator on duty fussing 
because the network ran over, way over, only to discover that no tv made 
could sync to the video coming out of our Sony 2800, 3/4" U-Matic vcr's, and 
moving the tape to another machine made no diff.

Since our power was from the W.A.P.A. grid, which is most of the US west of 
the river, I glanced at the wall clock, which was then still a wall powered 
synch motor clock, and found it was about 13 minutes ahead of my watch, an 
early digital one.

So I called the local power company who had no clue what it was that I was 
talking about, so they gave me another number to call.  Shortening  the 
story here, 3 numbers & 15 minutes later I am talking to the engineer in 
charge in the W.A.P.A. control room (I think in Bonneville Utah), and when I 
said they were running fast, he laughed, so I asked him what time it was, 
and got a quote that matched our wall clock to a second or so.  I said, no, 
its not, its such and such a time right now, and the whole grid is running 
at what my counter says is 71HZ, I had by that time measured it.  So he 
walked over to his vibrating reed meter and of course it was so far off it 
was silent.  He came back to the phone and asked if I could hear anything, 
at which point I could hear the air conditioner blowers almost coasting back 
down to their usual speed, and it was back to about 59.6 HZ, which my vcr's 
with their synch motors and eddy current brakes which made the belts slip 
ever so slightly so that the drum speed was once again 1800 rpms (actually 
1,798.2 rpms, NTSC of course), and we were back on the air.  The wall clock 
was finally right again about 22:00 that night.

The point being that he had the controls that allowed the whole grid west of 
the river (Miss. River) to be dropped about 11 hertz in slightly over a 
minute.  And that is an area larger than Europe I believe.

Pull that today and they would probably send the black helicopters to check 
your bodies DNA.  After the fact.

Yup, broadcast engineering can be a "but that can't happen (but it just 
did)" scenario at least once a week.  I stuck around for 45 years just to 
see what happened next.  And it was quite a ride. ;-)

Now, back to your regularly scheduled puzzles.  Your turn again Fons. ;-)

-- 
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Re: [LAD] A little quiz about audio measurements...

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 May 2010, Veronica Merryfield wrote:
>> Regarding to station clocks I guess they are synced by radio and not by
>> the power line. In Parma there the clocks might be heritage-protected ;)
>> and stills synced by the power line frequency.
>
>The ones I have visited have two clocks, one on the power line and one
> atomical. The control systems have the same thing, so they say, but when
> talking through the running of the station it seemed much of that sort of
> control is manual.
>
>The significance here, I was surprised to see 100.0hz if it was mains
> bourn.
>
That is because the 50hz is full wave rectified, becoming 100hz and 
harmonics thereof because that waveform is not a sin wave.
>Vrnc
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Re: [LAD] A little quiz about audio measurements...

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 May 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
[...]

>I found no Wiki for "Überferquenz", increased frequency. At what value
>was the voltage, when there were 100 Hz?

The 100 HZ component is what you get by rectifying both halves of the sine 
wave, effectively inverting the lower half to become another pulse, with 
lots of distortion so there will be harmonics of the 100HZ also displayed on 
the spectrum display.   In most power generators, the voltage at the output 
is regulated by the current through the rotating armature being controlled, 
so the voltage, should the armature overspeed, is generally fairly stable.

In what we call standby power systems here, the throttle of the engine doing 
the turning is usually controlled by the output frequency, with a drop in 
frequency being assumed to be an increase in the load, and an increase being 
a drop in the load, generally achieving about a +- 1 hz tolerance.  In much 
larger systems, there will be a fixed frequency reference derived from a 
master clock, and the phase angles of the power are compared to this 
reference, with a very high gain so the phase errors are usually within a 
degree.  So the system is said to be phase locked.  The input energy to turn 
the machinery, water gates, whatever, are where the control is actually 
exerted.  Should any one 'generator' get more than a few degrees out of 
lock, it will usually disconnect itself, or reduce its excitation current to 
allow it to catch up or increase it if it needs to slow minutely, this may 
cause a few millivolts of a voltage change to the whole grid.  Somewhere in 
here the load shedding also comes into play if it is a controllable item for 
that section of the grid.

Where the grid idea fails in places like the US, is when the light speed 
propagation delays begin to play with the phase reference.  Because of this 
the USA is broken into smaller pieces grid wise.

>So if anybody wants to program a virtual Hammond B3, should he take care
>about tuning effects caused by the power line?
>Btw. is the motors speed for a B3 depending to the voltage or is it
>synced by the frequency?
>
>Ralf

They are synch motors Ralf.  Its a different motor for me at 60hz on this 
side of the pond.


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Re: [LAD] audio/midi app development

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>On 06/17/2010 04:52 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> Paul Davis wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Ralf Mardorf
>>>
>>>  wrote:
 PS: Why not programming for savant syndrome musical gifted and 'fast'
 watching people too?
>>>
>>> the limits under discussion relate to monitor technology, not human
>>> capabilities.
>>
>> I'm not a 'fast watching savant' ;) and even if the GUI is too slow, I
>> won't care. I'm listening to music with my very good ears, but my bad
>> eyes. No doubt, Linux is a good choice, but MIDI real-time could be
>> better. For me the GUI is unimportant. BUT I prefer to do audio
>> recordings using Linux, but MIDI recordings. It's a real pity, because
>> MIDI would add some very cool features.
>
>This is only on your system right? I know a lot of people are working
>with midi recording using linux tools.
>
>You see jitter at low latency but have you tried changing your hardware
>or working with the driver developers to isolate and fix the bugs you
>are seeing?

One of the test tools that might be enlightening for the MIDI folks here, is 
the machine control program called emc.  Because jitter is very important 
when feeding a stepper motor controller a steady heartbeat at high audio and 
somewhat above frequencies, the coders have developed a 'latency-test' 
script, which you run on one screen, then abuse the heck out of the machine 
doing other things, (browsing the web, moving windows around, compiling a 
kernel, whatever warms up the cpu) then come back half an hour or more later 
and read the average and worst case latencies as displayed in nanoseconds.  

Those are generally big figures so do the math and make milliseconds out of 
them.

Emc when running stepper motors is fussier that all get out, and that tool 
just might point the finger at truly bad motherboard, or video hardware.  
FWIW, an nvida video card, can only be used in a machine running emc if the 
vesa driver is selected, all the others including nv, tie up the interrupts, 
sometimes for many milliseconds.  For emc, that would equal a stalled motor 
and a wrecked part you were cutting at the time it stalled.  Similar things 
can be said about the APCI of some motherboards.  If that can't be fixed via 
a bios setting, toss the board.  Via chipsets seem to be the most popular in 
this latter category.

If its a complex part that you've already got several hours worth of carving 
& cutting tool wear into, that will only happen once, because whatever the 
culprit is, gets both found and a free airmail trip into the bin.

What?  Oh, I'll go back to lurking now. ;-)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The policy is not to have policy. It works as well in kernel design as 
politics.

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Re: [LAD] audio/midi app development

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Philipp Überbacher wrote:
>Excerpts from Gene Heskett's message of 2010-06-17 00:45:14 +0200:
>> On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>> >On 06/17/2010 04:52 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> >> Paul Davis wrote:
>> >>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Ralf Mardorf
>> >>>
>> >>>  wrote:
>>  PS: Why not programming for savant syndrome musical gifted and
>>  'fast' watching people too?
>> >>>
>> >>> the limits under discussion relate to monitor technology, not human
>> >>> capabilities.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not a 'fast watching savant' ;) and even if the GUI is too slow,
>> >> I won't care. I'm listening to music with my very good ears, but my
>> >> bad eyes. No doubt, Linux is a good choice, but MIDI real-time could
>> >> be better. For me the GUI is unimportant. BUT I prefer to do audio
>> >> recordings using Linux, but MIDI recordings. It's a real pity,
>> >> because MIDI would add some very cool features.
>> >
>> >This is only on your system right? I know a lot of people are working
>> >with midi recording using linux tools.
>> >
>> >You see jitter at low latency but have you tried changing your hardware
>> >or working with the driver developers to isolate and fix the bugs you
>> >are seeing?
>>
>> One of the test tools that might be enlightening for the MIDI folks
>> here, is the machine control program called emc.  Because jitter is very
>> important when feeding a stepper motor controller a steady heartbeat at
>> high audio and somewhat above frequencies, the coders have developed a
>> 'latency-test' script, which you run on one screen, then abuse the heck
>> out of the machine doing other things, (browsing the web, moving windows
>> around, compiling a kernel, whatever warms up the cpu) then come back
>> half an hour or more later and read the average and worst case latencies
>> as displayed in nanoseconds.
>>
>> Those are generally big figures so do the math and make milliseconds out
>> of them.
>>
>> Emc when running stepper motors is fussier that all get out, and that
>> tool just might point the finger at truly bad motherboard, or video
>> hardware. FWIW, an nvida video card, can only be used in a machine
>> running emc if the vesa driver is selected, all the others including nv,
>> tie up the interrupts, sometimes for many milliseconds.  For emc, that
>> would equal a stalled motor and a wrecked part you were cutting at the
>> time it stalled.  Similar things can be said about the APCI of some
>> motherboards.  If that can't be fixed via a bios setting, toss the
>> board.  Via chipsets seem to be the most popular in this latter
>> category.
>>
>> If its a complex part that you've already got several hours worth of
>> carving & cutting tool wear into, that will only happen once, because
>> whatever the culprit is, gets both found and a free airmail trip into
>> the bin.
>>
>> What?  Oh, I'll go back to lurking now. ;-)
>
>I fear something named simply 'emc' isn't easy to find around the net.
>
Go see , I am reasonable sure there are links to a 
downloadable live but installable .iso there.  You can run this latency-test 
from the booted cd I believe.

-- 
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Duct tape is like the force.  It has a light side, and a dark side, and
it holds the universe together ...
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Re: [LAD] audio/midi app development

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Philipp Überbacher wrote:
>Excerpts from Gene Heskett's message of 2010-06-17 00:45:14 +0200:
[...]

>I fear something named simply 'emc' isn't easy to find around the net.

Try 

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
75. I think it should not be doing that...

--Top 100 things you don't want the sysadmin to say
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Re: [LAD] audio/midi app development

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Harry Van Haaren wrote:
>> Go see ,
>
>The link you posted doesnt work. It's a .org i think:
>http://wiki.linuxcnc.org
>
>Cheers, -Harry
>
Working from wet ram and its 75 years old, what can I plead except 
oldtimers. ;-)

-- 
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Re: [LAD] audio/midi app development

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 17 June 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>>> On 06/17/2010 04:52 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>>> Paul Davis wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Ralf Mardorf
>>>>>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> PS: Why not programming for savant syndrome musical gifted and
>>>>>> 'fast' watching people too?
>>>>>
>>>>> the limits under discussion relate to monitor technology, not human
>>>>> capabilities.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not a 'fast watching savant' ;) and even if the GUI is too slow, I
>>>> won't care. I'm listening to music with my very good ears, but my bad
>>>> eyes. No doubt, Linux is a good choice, but MIDI real-time could be
>>>> better. For me the GUI is unimportant. BUT I prefer to do audio
>>>> recordings using Linux, but MIDI recordings. It's a real pity, because
>>>> MIDI would add some very cool features.
>>>
>>> This is only on your system right? I know a lot of people are working
>>> with midi recording using linux tools.
>>>
>>> You see jitter at low latency but have you tried changing your hardware
>>> or working with the driver developers to isolate and fix the bugs you
>>> are seeing?
>>
>> One of the test tools that might be enlightening for the MIDI folks
>> here, is the machine control program called emc.  Because jitter is very
>> important when feeding a stepper motor controller a steady heartbeat at
>> high audio and somewhat above frequencies, the coders have developed a
>> 'latency-test' script, which you run on one screen, then abuse the heck
>> out of the machine doing other things, (browsing the web, moving windows
>> around, compiling a kernel, whatever warms up the cpu) then come back
>> half an hour or more later and read the average and worst case latencies
>> as displayed in nanoseconds.
>>
>> Those are generally big figures so do the math and make milliseconds out
>> of them.
>>
>> Emc when running stepper motors is fussier that all get out, and that
>> tool just might point the finger at truly bad motherboard, or video
>> hardware. FWIW, an nvida video card, can only be used in a machine
>> running emc if the vesa driver is selected, all the others including nv,
>> tie up the interrupts, sometimes for many milliseconds.  For emc, that
>> would equal a stalled motor and a wrecked part you were cutting at the
>> time it stalled.  Similar things can be said about the APCI of some
>> motherboards.  If that can't be fixed via a bios setting, toss the
>> board.  Via chipsets seem to be the most popular in this latter
>> category.
>>
>> If its a complex part that you've already got several hours worth of
>> carving & cutting tool wear into, that will only happen once, because
>> whatever the culprit is, gets both found and a free airmail trip into
>> the bin.
>>
>> What?  Oh, I'll go back to lurking now. ;-)
>
>I guess you are regarding to http://linuxwiki.de/EMC, but I just started
>searching the web. Btw. when 'we' some old dino computer freaks
>controlled stepper motors by DOS machines, we just controlled remoted
>pics (oldish micro controllers - but not very old -, I guess you would
>use DSPs or other micro controllers today, 

There are several boards about that will let you treat a stepper equipt 
machine like they were servo's.  But in either case, if the stepper misses a 
step, game over.  So one stays within the limits of what the stepper can do. 
I would explain why steppers and high speeds are mutually exclusive, but 
then I'd really be off topic.

>but would you use your MacOS,
>Windows, Linux instead of external chips for fast and exact real-time
>control?). While oldish machines without multitasking, e.g. the Atari ST
>could control machines on real-time, at least for applications like
>MIDI, I don't know if the Atari would be able to control a CNC machine,

I have one friend down in TX that is running his stepper mill with a TRS-80 
Color Computer whose clock is .79mhz.  He has been making steam engines with 
it.  Slowly, very slowly, using a Dremel for a spindle.  For that, Dremels 
area POS.

Midi's timing is fairly critical, but steppers are even fussier at higher 
speeds where the torque falls off.

>I guess there are reasons for using external micro controllers when
>controlling such machines, not only when using a MacOS, Windows PC,
>Linux PC I never heard of MacOS, Windows PC

Re: [LAD] audio/midi app development

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 17 June 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> Btw. when 'we' some old dino computer freaks controlled stepper motors
>> by DOS machines, we just controlled remoted pics (oldish micro
>> controllers - but not very old -, I guess you would use DSPs or other
>> micro controllers today, but would you use your MacOS, Windows, Linux
>> instead of external chips for fast and exact real-time control?).
>
>Regarding to the age, I should have read who is the sender of the email
>before I replied ;D.

That, other than I have lived long enough to have been there and done that, 
hasn't a lot to do with it.  I have spent 75 years refusing to grow _up_. :)

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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exactly the point of most pressure.
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Re: [LAD] Real-time plotting of audio/ oscilloscope.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 17 June 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> Jeremy wrote:
>>> Is there a fundamental restriction on doing so, or is my problem in
>>> software?
>>>
>>> Jeremy
>>
>> Hardware ;)!
>>
>> We should start a black- and whitelist for hardware used for Linux
>> real-time. Unfortunately I could add my two machines to the blacklist
>> :(.
>
>A blacklist (greylist) was started here, but it's a forum. We should do
>a real 'list' (table) with printable short informations about no-go chip
>sets etc..

And you could possibly borrow some of the worst hardware from our wiki's 
list to start yours. ;-)

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
An intellectual is someone whose mind watches itself.
-- Albert Camus
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Re: [LAD] Real-time plotting of audio/ oscilloscope.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 17 June 2010, Jeremy wrote:
>On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 2:25 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> Jeremy wrote:
>>> Is there a fundamental restriction on doing so, or is my problem in
>>> software?
>>>
>>> Jeremy
>>
>> Hardware ;)!
>>
>> We should start a black- and whitelist for hardware used for Linux
>> real-time. Unfortunately I could add my two machines to the blacklist
>> :(.
>
>Which hardware is "bad"?  The cpu?  The video chip? The motherboard?
>
>Jeremy
>
Video hardware seems to be the biggest offender.

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [LAD] audio/midi app development

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 17 June 2010, Philipp Überbacher wrote:
>Excerpts from Gene Heskett's message of 2010-06-17 01:32:00 +0200:
>> On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Philipp Überbacher wrote:
>> >Excerpts from Gene Heskett's message of 2010-06-17 00:45:14 +0200:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >I fear something named simply 'emc' isn't easy to find around the net.
>>
>> Try
>> 
>
>Thanks, I found it eventually (I'm really bad at using search engines).
>Quite interesting, it uses a RTAI patched kernel. I also read this has a
>module to disable SMIs, which is kind of hard to believe..

Not sure about the SMI, but screen blanking has to be disabled, that bites 
in the the IRQ timing very badly.  So when I walk away, I need to remember 
to shut that old CRT Samsung off manually.

>At my school we transfered the CAD files per floppy to a DOS box that
>controlled the CNC machine, guess that's for the same reason, bad rt
>capabilities of newer OSes and machines.

The RTAI works pretty well, I can start a job, switch away from that window, 
and talk to the guys on IRC, or browse the web without hurting the job.  
That to me is true multitasking.


-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [LAD] audio/midi app development

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 17 June 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Philipp Überbacher wrote:
>> Excerpts from Gene Heskett's message of 2010-06-17 01:32:00 +0200:
>>> On Wednesday 16 June 2010, Philipp Überbacher wrote:
 Excerpts from Gene Heskett's message of 2010-06-17 00:45:14 +0200:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
 I fear something named simply 'emc' isn't easy to find around the net.
>>>
>>> Try
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> --Top 100 things you don't want the sysadmin to say
>>
>> Thanks, I found it eventually (I'm really bad at using search engines).
>> Quite interesting, it uses a RTAI patched kernel. I also read this has a
>> module to disable SMIs, which is kind of hard to believe..
>>
>> At my school we transfered the CAD files per floppy to a DOS box that
>> controlled the CNC machine, guess that's for the same reason, bad rt
>> capabilities of newer OSes and machines.
>
>Never ever! I bet the DOS machine 'controls' micro controllers used by
>the CNC machine. Imagine a conical object where you wish to engrave a
>word in a reasonable time. Have fun using my computer + a Linux kernel
>rt (or any windows rt) to do this ;).

Chuckle.  We have SW that can take your name, wrap it around a beer can 
sized object, and once the code is correct, carve your name on that cylinder 
in maybe a minute.  That would take a machine setup with 4 axis control, 
which mine is.  And all 4 axis motors are controlled by step and direction 
controls over a single parport.  Using xylotex motor drivers.

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [LAD] Real-time plotting of audio/ oscilloscope.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 17 June 2010, Paul Davis wrote:
>On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 3:26 AM, Ralf Mardorf
>
> wrote:
>> Dunno. I could post $ hwinfo > hwinfo.txt for a combination of hardware
>> that will cause MIDI jitter when controlling external MIDI  equipment.
>
>which would produce a basically useless list.
>
>most of the hardware that most people have is fine when considered by
>itself. its the combination of different devices *and* device drivers
>*and* BIOSes that cause the issues. although there are cases where
>"chip X is bad for foobar" can be said without any ambiguity, most of
>the time its much more like "chip X on mobo Y with BIOS foo and
>version 3.14519 of the diddly driver ."

Very very true Paul, and its something I didn't expound on.  Thanks.

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Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter

[Gene Heskett]

:  Ralf Mardorf 
>To:f...@kokkinizita.net
>CC:linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
>References:<4badbd42.4030...@alice-dsl.net>
> <20100327164326.gd1...@zita2>
>
>> Hi Fons :)
>>
>> f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>> > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 09:09:38AM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> >> Regular it shifted between 2395 and 2404, but with a few exceptions,
>> >> one time 2302, three times 2304, two times 2305 and two time 2494.
>> >> See attachment.
>> >> What might cause this exceptions? Could it be access to the RAM by
>> >> the graphics? Is there something bad because of the IRQs?
>> >>
>> >> Regular shift 2404 - 2395 = 9 frames of jitter, exceptional maximal
>> >> shift 2494 - 2302 =  192 frames of jitter.
>> >>
>> >> I guess this does mean ...
>> >> 5.3 ms / 512 frames = 0.010351562 ms/frame
>> >> Maximal difference for regular jitter 0.093164062 ms.
>> >> Maximal difference for exceptional jitter 1.9875 ms.
>> >> ... am I wrong?
>> >
>> > Wrong once or twice, if twice in such a way that the two
>> > errors cancel out.
>> >
>> > First note that the test prints the difference between
>> > events. That means that e.g. if *one* note is 100 samples
>> > late you could see  2400 2500 2300 2400.
>> >
>> > The '2300' is just because the previous one was late,
>> > not because this one arrives too early. So you should
>> > divide the jitter as you measure it by two.
>>
>> Aha, okay this is plausible.
>>
>> > Second, 5.33 ms = 256 frames at 48 kHz. But maybe you
>> > are using 96 kHz ??
>>
>> So you didn't read the attachment ;), yes I did use 96 KHz.
>> [snip]
>
>Subject:   Again MIDI jitter - tested with Fons test applications
>Date:  Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:09:38 +0100
>From:  Ralf Mardorf 
>To:Linux Audio Developers 
>
>> When I once tested it by recording I got this result for ALSA MIDI on
>>
>> Linux, Cubase runs on Windows on the same machine:
>>   ||Cubase|HR tmr|System|PCM pl|PCM ca
>>
>> --++--+--+--+--+--
>> 500.0 || 493.0| 504.9| 505.6| 503.4| 503.2
>> 1000.0|| 993.4|1005.4|1005.8|1005.3|1006.4
>> 1500.0||1494.5|1503.6|1506.4|1507.4|1507.3
>> 2000.0||1994.8|2003.8|2007.2|2007.9|2009.5
>> 2500.0||2492.4|2504.1|2504.3|2503.6|2503.2
>> 3000.0||2992.9|3006.0|3006.2|3005.9|3007.6
>> 3500.0||3493.7|3502.7|3505.4|3506.5|3509.5
>> 4000.0||3994.6|4003.1|4003.2|4008.8|4009.9
>> msec +/- 0.1 msec
>> maxDif||   4.8|   6.0|   7.2|   8.8|   9.9
>> minDif||  -2.4|  -2.7|  -3.2|  -3.4|  -3.2
>> --+--+--+--+--
>> Jitter||   2.4|   3.3|   4.0|   5.4|   6.7
>> msec +/- 0.2 msec
>
>... as you can see, for Cubase I got this 2ms of jitter. So regarding to
>your explanation Herman, Windows + ASIO + Cubase does a good job, just
>the USB interface will limit it, while for Linux there seems to be
>another issue too, but the USB interface. Btw. Linux HR tmr is a PITA,
>just System, PCM pl and PCM ca are usable without issues for all Linux
> apps.
>
>What could be the cause that Windows just is limited to the USB
>interface by 2.4 ms, but Linux comes with 4.0 ms on my machine?
>
>Joshua Boyd on LAD wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:37:25AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>> At my school we transfered the CAD files per floppy to a DOS box that
>>>> controlled the CNC machine, guess that's for the same reason, bad rt
>>>> capabilities of newer OSes and machines.
>>>
>>> The RTAI works pretty well, I can start a job, switch away from that
>>> window, and talk to the guys on IRC, or browse the web without hurting
>>> the job. That to me is true multitasking.
>>
>> So, that leaves me wondering why no one seems to be trying RTAI for
>> audio work?  Or is someone doing that and I'm just not aware?
>
>Today I tried to do so.
>
>I tried to run JACK2 with -R switch by user and by sudo, the result was
>the same as here, when I launched JACK2 without -R switch on 64 Studio
>3.0 beta based on Ubuntu Hardy:
>
>$ uname -r
>2.6.24-16-rtai
>
>$ jackd -dalsa -dhw:0 -r96000 -p512 -n2
>jackdmp 1.9.3
>Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others.
>Copyright 2004-2009 Grame.
>jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
>This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
>under certain conditions; see the file COPYING f

Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 19 June 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Hi Gene :)
[huge snip]
>> Being an ardent purist can bite you.  As another friend of mine would
>> say, use what works.
>
>No Windows! If needed I'll write to your friend and get that Atari-VGA
>interface, get a SMPTE interface again and an anlog audio recorder
>again. I also would change the SCSI hard disk in the Lacom interface,
>it's a 42 MB Seagate, without any free space and it sometimes fails on
>startup. The main problem is, that I don't have the money jet and it's
>not that easy to get the money. Another issue is, that I guess it's time
>to use modern software, because it also comes with some advantages
>compared to 80ies software made for the Atari and to the very old
>hardware. E.g. what would happen if one day a chip in the Steinberg
>dongle should break?


It has been my experience that such dongles have a lifetime of about a year.
Or less.

Story time:  Years ago, we setup a graphics system that involved using the 
A&B Roll Editing (or something like that name) amiga software to control 2 
editing S-VHS vcr's, Panasonic 7750's.  That came with a parport dongle, 
without which it would not work.  And it was a $25,000 package.

They, after lots of argument, and receiving the old dongle, would replace it 
when it failed.  eventually that program was sold to RVS, Ring Video 
Systems, some fly by night down in FL.

The dongle failed again (there was no printer attached to its output port 
ever) and they screwed around for 6 months, finally going to the original 
authors house to get the last dongle in existence after we threatened to 
sue.  It lasted about 3 months.  By then the hacking business was running 
full tilt in the amiga world, so when they said no more dongle, we said 
we're gonna hack it, sue us if you dare.  We sent it off to one of the 
hackers, and had a working system back on-line in 3 days.  RVS in turn had 
one of their programmers try to take it out, and 3 copies later over about 2 
weeks, they failed.  And we laughed at them on the phone when the last one 
they sent didn't work.

To this day, I believe we only have one dongle protected system at the 
station & that was because they said there wasn't one, but there was.  We 
simply do not consider for purchase, any system that uses a dongle for copy 
protection.  And we are not exactly silent when we tell some vendor, sorry, 
you use a trouble prone technology so we will not even consider your 
product/equipment.  When we are writing checks for $100k and up for the new 
digital stuff, we are justifiably being picky.  If the vendor doesn't like 
it, the exit door is that way, come back when you can offer us something 
that Just Works(TM).  Its been remarkably effective at separating out the 
rectums in the business.

>Cheers!
>
>Ralf
>


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Undetectable errors are infinite in variety, in contrast to detectable 
errors, which by definition are limited
-- SNAFU Equations (JB's Scholastic Laws) n�3
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Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 19 June 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Hi Gene :)
>
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Saturday 19 June 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>
>> This will go back only to LAD as I'm not subbed to the others, Ralf.
>>
>>> Ichthyostega wrote:
>>>> Ralf Mardorf schrieb:
>>>>> Another stupid question induced by an argument regarding to MIDI
>>>>> jitter by Daniel James.
>>>>>
>>>>>> [snip] I'm sceptical that the realtime kernel is the cause of your
>>>>>> MIDI problems. If they got this right in the 80's, on computers
>>>>>> which could not do anything near realtime audio processing, then I
>>>>>> think it's more likely to be a question of MIDI application design.
>>>>
>>>> At that point we should call back, how that whole story with
>>>> "realtime" started. At the begining was a design mismatch. Many things
>>>> related to the Linux kernel started out with a kind of "I feel fine"
>>>> pragmatism. Which, btw isn't to criticise as it is, because this also
>>>> accounts for the freshness and sometime unconventional new approach to
>>>> some problems. But with regards to timings, for all of the first
>>>> decade of Linux development, there seemed to be a completely different
>>>> mental model, which we could summarise as: permormance == throughput,
>>>> and timings are only relevant, when you get a network timeout, or a
>>>> sluggish response in your application's GUI.
>>>>
>>>> Thus, if we now consider to use a Linux kernel for making music, we
>>>> must assess that the whole design isochronously assumed about 1000
>>>> times more headroom as there really is.
>>>>
>>>> Thus, as writing a new Kernel doesn't seem to be an option, this whole
>>>> tedious undertaking of the "realtime patches" can be described as an
>>>> attempt to fix this "problem" (which was never assumed to be a problem
>>>> in the initial design) by hunting down one by one each individual
>>>> instance where the existing kernel could possibly be reacting too
>>>> slow.
>>>>
>>>> Thus, we should rather be surprised, how good these realtime kernels
>>>> work. OTOH, is isn't a surprise the machines from the 80s meet these
>>>> criteria; their OS software was written with an awareness for a much
>>>> more limited processing capability right from start.
>>>>
>>>>> Why do people (not only me) report jitter for external MIDI
>>>>> equipment, but I couldn't find any report for real-time audio jitter?
>>>>> Resp. what's about async and disconnecting clients by JACK?
>>>>
>>>> Audio and MIDI are two quite different beasts.
>>>> Sound is processed in Blocks, where the individual unity (1 Sample) is
>>>> much more fine grained and way below anything which can be discerned
>>>> by a human ear. Moreover, Sound as such already exists and 'just' has
>>>> to be piped through. To the contrary, MIDI consists of events, which
>>>> immediately trigger a reaction, which could be that a piece of
>>>> software and at the same time a piece of external hardware starts a
>>>> processing cycle. You see, thats a completely different situation and
>>>> thus it's obvious, why for these two media the same problem causes so
>>>> different symptoms.
>>>>
>>>>> OTOH on Windows audio clients don't disconnect,
>>>>> just MIDI jitter is an issue too.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, this was a design decision for JACK. It never tries to conceal
>>>> any timeout problem, rather it requires its clients to keep up with
>>>> a very tight schedule and comply to very strict rules.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know the MIDI part of Jack well enough to judge, if it was
>>>> designed with the same "you're required to comply" policy. And
>>>> besides, when the MIDI interface is hooked up via USB, we again face a
>>>> completely different situation. USB is a complicated protocol, which
>>>> multiple versions and levels and is certainly not designed to get an
>>>> individual event transfered reliably with less than 2ms jitter.
>>>> There is even the possibility that the USB peers negotiate to use a
>>>> lower transfer rate or protocol

Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 19 June 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]
>The Steinberg dongle seems to be ok, since it's from the 80ies or
>beginning 90ies and was used for several years without getting broken.
>But exactly because it's that old I fear it could break one day.
>
>I 'guess' that I also could get cracked versions of Cubase for the
>Atari, but while the dongle version is 100% stable and the latest
>version ever made for the Atari, there aren't cracks for the latest
>version and the cracks I know were '99%' stable.

Since most of those dongles back then were themselves protected by grinding 
the part numbers off the chip, that damage to the expoxy-B covering is 
probably largely responsible for their short life, both from the instant 
heating caused by the grinding, but also from moisture migrating into the 
assembly through the damaged epoxy-B coating.

>For Windows there are dongle hacks available by torrent, they do work
>'99,9%' ok and can be used with cracks, 'I heard'. Dunno if
>they would work with bought software too, this might be interesting for
>people who bought the original and wish to use it on wine.
>
>I 'guess' I could get all I need for Windows as a crack, but I don't
>like cracks and I can't pay for legal versions and I don't wish to have
>USB dongles. Btw. I don't like the 'philosophy' of Microsoft.
>While bus dongles using oldish gate chips, are less damageable, I don't
>trust USB micro controllers.

>When I was young I tuned my motorbikes and cracked software and used
>software other people cracked. Juvenile law isn't valid for me today,
>just one reason not to use cracks.

And when I was a juvenile, transistors had not been invented yet. ;-)

>While open sources might not be important to everybody, people also
>might not care about malign US major corporation, at least keeping our
>own slates clean is a reason to get Linux more capable for music too.

Naw, I'm not the least bit allergic to tweaking the M$ nose. :)  Their 
little 'easter eggs' that cause the loss of an important file that can only 
be replaced by purchasing a new copy of the os, in this case NT-4.0, have 
bit me enough times that I have no respect for M$ for about 20 years now.  
My limited experience with XP showed that it did work, but never felt like a 
true os to me, just patches to DOS.  Their most stable was 95, it ran for 46 
days at a time, till the tick counter rolled over.  Reboot on day 45 and 
everything was cool.  I would have to assume that DOS-6.22 also suffered 
from that, we had one of those that crashed about every month & a half but 
never had the clues to point a finger at that.  Just one of those things...

>2 cents,

Mine too.  But I'd imagine the list people are about to police us, this is 
sort of off topic. ;(

>Ralf
>


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Q: How do you fix all Windows bugs at once?
A: Type DELTREE C:\WINDOWS
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[LAD] Better lossless compressions?

[Gene Heskett]

And is there a snowballs chance in hell that this is un-encumbered?



Yeah, I sub to a lot of stuff, and occasionally a gem comes by.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Old programmers never die, they just hit account block limit.
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Re: [LAD] Better lossless compressions?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 June 2010, Jens M Andreasen wrote:
>On Mon, 2010-06-21 at 22:55 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> And is there a snowballs chance in hell that this is un-encumbered?
>>
>> <http://electronicdesign.com/tabid/57/default.aspx?topic=algorithm_deliv
>>ers_lossless_compression_to_adc_samples&catpath=&fltrTitle=&fltrSummary=&
>>fltrPublication.aspx?nl=1>
>
>from TFA:
>: Implemented in a DSP chip or microprocessor, this simple compressor
>: requires about 50 instructions per sample. However, lossless
>: compression ratios fall between 1.3:1 and 2:1 on baseband signals.
>
>So a size of 75% expected and on occasion down to 50% after compression.
>How is that compared to existing implementations?
>
It was the lossless claim that got my attention, Jens.  I am well aware that 
current compressors can beat that at "acceptable" quality.  But an ogg at q7 
turned into an  192k mp3, or vice-versa, results in a blurred cacophony of 
noise because each compressor throws away different stuff.  The result is 
still like fingernails on a backboard even to these 75 year old ears.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first
overcome.
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Re: [LAD] Better lossless compressions?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 June 2010, Adrian Knoth wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 06:38:45AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> >from TFA:
>> >: Implemented in a DSP chip or microprocessor, this simple compressor
>> >: requires about 50 instructions per sample. However, lossless
>> >: compression ratios fall between 1.3:1 and 2:1 on baseband signals.
>> >
>> >So a size of 75% expected and on occasion down to 50% after
>> > compression. How is that compared to existing implementations?
>>
>> It was the lossless claim that got my attention, Jens. I am well aware
>> that current compressors can beat that at "acceptable" quality. But an
>> ogg at q7
>
>Jens was never talking about lossy "compression", which I call data
>reduction to avoid the ambiguity with real compression (as in ZIP).
>
>Lossless audio coding is nothing new, FLAC has been around for years.
>Your referenced codec achives 1.3:1 to 2:1. One can compare this to some
>values provided here:
>
>
>   http://web.inter.nl.net/users/hvdh/lossless/lossless.htm
>
>
>These are all lossless codecs, and as one can see, only few manage to
>come close to 2:1 (50% compression).
>
>However, results for predictive coding (derivation based approaches)
>vary a lot depending on the input signal. As a rule of thumb, a pure
>sine is easier to predict than noise, which more or less is the
>mathematical equivalent of randomness (I'm sure Fons could go into
>detail here, if necessary).
>
>
>Long story short: I don't think your link contains something
>extra-ordinary, just another me-too approach of well-known techniques.
>It might save you a few bits, but you'll have to measure it. Fire up
>octave, load the matlab script, encode a wave file and compare it to
>FLAC.
>
>If your referenced algorithm gives striking results, then convince
>everybody to forget about FLAC and use this new algo instead. Let me
>predict that neither the first nor the latter will happen. ;)
>
>
>That's more or less the end of the story. Any further discussion would
>only make sense with measured results at hand.
>
>
>HTH

I certainly won't argue with that assessment.  In truth, I had forgotten 
about flac too, possibly another sign of CRS that goes with age.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
All components become obsolete. 
-- Murphy's Computer Laws n�8
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Re: [LAD] remember ??

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 June 2010, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>those of you who attended LAC2009 will recognise the Sala
>Bianca and lovely metal girl Giorgia:
>
>  
>
>Enjoy !
>
Unforch Fons, while its decent video, the total silence is deafening.  Flash 
10 doing the playing according to the report from swiftfox, on mdv 2010-x64.

??

Thanks.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Nezvannyi gost'--khuzhe tatarina.
[An uninvited guest is worse than the Mongol invasion]
-- Russian proverb
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Re: [LAD] remember ??

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 June 2010, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 04:50:46PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Unforch Fons, while its decent video, the total silence is deafening. 
>> Flash 10 doing the playing according to the report from swiftfox, on mdv
>> 2010-x64.
>
>I've been watching this using plain standard Firefox on my laptop
>sitting in the garden using a wireless connection. No deafening
>silence at all...
>
>Ciao,
>
Now its working, except the connection is slow.  I haven't changed a thing.
/me goes off scratching my thinning hair. ;-)

Thanks Fons.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
That does not compute.
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Re: [LAD] remember ??

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 22 June 2010, Joshua Boyd wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 04:50:46PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Tuesday 22 June 2010, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>> >Hello all,
>> >
>> >those of you who attended LAC2009 will recognise the Sala
>> >Bianca and lovely metal girl Giorgia:
>> >
>> >  <http://www.youtube.com/user/WinterHaze01>
>> >
>> >Enjoy !
>>
>> Unforch Fons, while its decent video, the total silence is deafening. 
>> Flash 10 doing the playing according to the report from swiftfox, on mdv
>> 2010-x64.
>
>I didn't even try watching in firefox.  I just stuck the video URL into
>youtube-dl, then used mplayer to listen.  Flash video in firefox general
>isn't stable for me on any linux machine.
>
Humm, while it is playing, pulse is having a whole litter of kittens.
>From messages:

Jun 22 21:45:04 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 190 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:09 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 189 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:14 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 186 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:20 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 167 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:25 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 168 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:30 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 189 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:35 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 188 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:40 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 186 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:46 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 187 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:51 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 184 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:45:56 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 190 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:46:01 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 192 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:46:07 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 187 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:46:12 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 184 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:46:17 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 173 events suppressed
Jun 22 21:46:22 coyote pulseaudio[4479]: ratelimit.c: 181 events suppressed

I'll go pester the pulse list.  Thanks.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
By doing just a little every day, you can gradually let the task
completely overwhelm you.
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Re: [LAD] remember ??

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 23 June 2010, Tim E. Real wrote:
>On June 22, 2010 04:12:50 pm f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> those of you who attended LAC2009 will recognise the Sala
>> Bianca and lovely metal girl Giorgia:
>>
>>   
>>
>> Enjoy !
>
>Wow, this girl rocks!
>No, I mean really rocks!
>
>I'm sitting watching enjoying this video, and all of a sudden -
> and earthquake tremor hits, rocking our whole house
> violently for a few minutes ! (Ottawa 1:30pm).
>
>And I thought all these computer audio conferences played
> was cheesy tasteless made-with-C64 synth pop.
>Wow, gonna have to attend some day...
>
>To Gene:
>I had the same problem, no audio in Firefox.
>So I completely disabled Pulse.
>That seems to have cured it. Or else it was this:
>Make sure ALSA is not mixing up the order of your audio devices,
> which it has a *terrible* habit of doing randomly from day-to-day.
>(How to stop that ???)
>Make sure the first device is the actual desired audio output device.
>
>Tim.

There was no reboot or anything else that might have done that.
Snilmerg maybe?

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Carrots work on rabbits, they don't work on hungry weasels.

- Alan Cox on linux-kernel
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Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 01 July 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 14:27 +0200, Adrian Knoth wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 06:20:30PM -0700, Niels Mayer wrote:
>> > What's interesting to note is that most of the USB MIDI interfaces do
>> > not have consistent latency (Other than the Roland UM2's consistent
>>
>> Let me just show you the result from my Midisport USB 2x2 (standard
>> edition when it was still produced by midiman, not the anniversary
>> edition):
>>
>> set_realtime_priority(SCHED_FIFO, 20).. done.
>> clock resolution: 0.1 s
>>
>> > latency distribution:
>>
>> ...
>>   3.1 -  3.2 ms:1 #
>> ...
>>   3.9 -  4.0 ms:1 #
>>   4.0 -  4.1 ms: 9903
>> ## ...
>>   5.0 -  5.1 ms:   95 #
>>
>> > SUCCESS
>>
>>  best latency was 3.13 ms
>>  worst latency was 5.00 ms, which is great.
>>
>>
>> This is a vanilla 2.6.34 kernel, no realtime patches, no nothing.
>>
>> a...@hex:~$ cat /proc/asound/timers
>> G0: system timer : 4000.000us (1000 ticks)
>> P0-0-0: PCM playback 0-0-0 : SLAVE
>> P0-0-1: PCM capture 0-0-1 : SLAVE
>> P0-1-0: PCM playback 0-1-0 : SLAVE
>> P0-1-1: PCM capture 0-1-1 : SLAVE
>> P0-2-1: PCM capture 0-2-1 : SLAVE
>>
>>
>> Not even HR timers. And yes, this is SMP, and yes, I have the "ondemand"
>> cpu governor, that is, the evil frequency scaling and the lot. Put
>> simply, it's a plain Debian unstable system, no latency tuning at all.
>>
>> Ok, 4ms are not strikingly fast, but it's acceptable and shouldn't
>> matter in praxis. Especially I don't see any noteworthy jitter.
>>
>> I'm going to measure the mainline kernels from 2.6.26 to 2.6.34 within
>> the next days to see if this stability can be accounted to the parts of
>> the RT patch that have been integrated into mainline.
>>
>> If this hypothesis is correct, I should see a lot of jitter with older
>> kernels.
>>
>> I'll also try to compare it against an onboard MPU-401, a firewire based
>> device and one or two more USB solutions.
>>
>>
>> Long story short: Seems things are not black (USB) and white (PCI).
>
>I'll test PCI as soon as possible too.
>Btw. while ports from other computers and my whole MIDI hardware is able
>to use my 80ies self-made MIDI thru box, the level of the USB MIDI's
>output is to weak to do it (I didn't re-adjust the thru box). Could it
>be, that a weak level has impact to the interpretation of the slew rate,

Yes, but this is not the cause of the latency you are looking for.  And yes, 
the current capabilities of the drivers should be brought up to specs to 
make sure the data doesn't get a scrambled bit occasionally.

>regarding to high and low? Of course without using this  box, because it
>won't work, I'm thinking of connecting the IOs of the USB MIDI and
>running the ALSA latency test.

Which, because there is the 10ms worst case latency of USB inherent in the 
standards and connection, will probably show worst cases of at least that.

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Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 02 July 2010, Paul Davis wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Adrian Knoth  
wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 07:43:38PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
[...]

>> You're both missing an argument after -w. I wonder (but haven't
>> checked the source) why the tool even starts when you don't provide the
>> value for the wait time.
>
>New results:
>
>sudo /usr/bin/alsa-midi-latency-test -w 20 -r -R -i 20:0 -o 20:0
>
Hmm, I'm on mdv-2010-x64 at the moment, what package would I find this test 
utility in?

Thanks.

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The man who can smile when something goes wrong has thought of someone he 
can blame it on
-- Fundamental Law of Thermodynamics n�3
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Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 03 July 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>On Fri, 2010-07-02 at 14:51 -0700, Niels Mayer wrote:
>> sudo alsa-midi-latency-test -w 20 -r -R -i 36:0 -o 36:0
>
>Perhaps better without sudo.
>
Probably, as that will test the user environment.

-- 
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Q:  What do you call the scratches that you get when a female
sheep bites you?
A:  Ewe nicks.
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Re: [LAD] [Fwd: Re: No nagging, a serious question]

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 04 July 2010, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
>On Sun, 2010-07-04 at 22:16 +0100, Dan Mills wrote:
>> You could probably hack a multi serial port card to do multiple midi
>> ports (Change the rock to give a suitable divider for 31250 baud
>> (4MHz?), add current loop interfaces)...
>
>Been there, done that - when I was a penniless dole-scrounging scruffy
>university drop-out living on a farm in the middle of nowhere, I decided
>I needed a MIDI sequencer.  So, I modified an old serial card with a
>4MHz crystal which divides to 31250 baud, and wrote a simple
>tracker-style sequencer in a mixture of C and assembler on DOS.  It
>worked, kind of.  If you wanted to do anything really wild like change
>the tempo you needed to recompile.
>
>Gordon MM0YEQ
>
As for the serial card with a different crystal, BTDT, on a TRS-80 Color 
Computer 3.  Not only that, but the software, Ultimuse-III, written by Mike 
Knudsen could handle the serial card and the bitbanger at the same time, so 
I actually had 2 ports and drove two different midi keyboards each with 
their own midi voice assignments.  This on a machine with 60 ticks/second 
IRQ's for a clock.  And neither port had any extra added buffers, it Just 
Worked(TM).

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged 
demo.
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Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:47:58 pm f...@kokkinizita.net did opine:

> Hello all,
> 
> Early this week one of the three 'rendering' PCs of the WFS
> system in the Sala Bianca failed. It just appeared completely
> dead and didn't even try to boot when the power button was
> pressed, but the standby power (for the network interface)
> was available.
> 
> I suspected the power supply, so ordered a new one which
> arrived two days ago. Installed it and things worked again.
> 
> But now comes the interesting part. While installing the new
> PS, I also disconnected the wires to the power button, and
> to test I just used a screwdriver to short the two pins that
> normally connect to it. But when I reconnected the power button
> the PC switched off after a few seconds. So it seemed as if the
> power button was permanently being pressed. I again installed
> the old PS, and things worked as long as the power button was
> not connected.
> 
> Measuring the power button switch with a multimeter showed
> an unstable resistance value of between 1 and 3k while it
> was not pressed. So I removed the thing, which turned out
> to be a cheap miniature switch, a little cube of around 8
> mm size. I opened and disassembled it, and noticed that the
> contacts had some black dirt on them. Cleaned with aceton
> and reassembled, and things worked perfectly again.
> 
> What I don't understand is how the contacts got so dirty.
> If a resistance of a few kOhm is enough to make it look
> as a closed contact then it can't be handling large currents,
> so there should not be any arcing. And the construction of
> the thing is such that it is virtually closed, no dust or
> whatever could ever creep in.
> 
> Still it's quite sobering that this cheap 0.30 Euro thing
> was capable of bringing down a 1600 Euro workstation...
> Who would suspect a switch to fail in this way ?
> 
> Ciao,

Some lubricant obviously made its way in there, and one would have to 
assume that the switched current was sufficient to cause a microscopic 
arcing, which will in time create a smoke film on the internals, which is 
what you were measuring, and which caused the PSU to think the button was 
pressed full time.  Lubricants are a good idea only on a circuit that can 
be called a dry circuit, where dry=microamp currents at very low voltages.

Washing it out with acetone was ok, but I would probably have reached for a 
can of paint thinning alcohol as it is less likely to degrade the plastics.

Yup, I am a C.E.T., with 60 years of that sort of trouble shooting.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
God is subtle, but he is not malicious.
-- Albert Einstein
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Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:59:08 pm drew Roberts did opine:

> On Saturday 17 July 2010 17:17:05 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > Debouncing and live time of switches always is a gambling game.
> 
> Makes me remember key debouncing issues with the TRS-80 Model I
> keyboards...
> 
> drew

I think that should make both of us genuine old farts. :)
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-- 
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Win98 is called Win98 because 98% of all hardware components will need
driver updates.
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Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday, July 18, 2010 09:25:27 am Ralf Mardorf did opine:

> On Sun, 2010-07-18 at 11:14 +0200, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:56:47PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > Some lubricant obviously made its way in there, and one would have
> > > to assume that the switched current was sufficient to cause a
> > > microscopic arcing, which will in time create a smoke film on the
> > > internals, which is what you were measuring, and which caused the
> > > PSU to think the button was pressed full time.  Lubricants are a
> > > good idea only on a circuit that can be called a dry circuit, where
> > > dry=microamp currents at very low voltages.
> > 
> > Ah, yes, these plastic things are often lubricated.
> > 
> > > Washing it out with acetone was ok, but I would probably have
> > > reached for a can of paint thinning alcohol as it is less likely to
> > > degrade the plastics.
> > 
> > I know, but the acetone was all I had available...
> > 
> > Ciao,
> 
> Fruit acids or pure alcohols are effective and relatively harmless, but
> most effective are products by chemical companies, there are cleaners
> with qualities comparable to penetrating oil, but made to fit to
> electrical properties. Those cleaners will clean, resp. repair and
> protect.
> 
True for the most part, but please do not place the common Freon TF in that 
category when magnetic media is involved.  15 years ago at the tv station, 
I got tired of paying for Freon-TF by the gallon, and cleaning the heads on 
all our VCR's 2-4x daily, and tried cleaning one with paint thinner alcohol 
from ACE Hardware.  I didn't have to clean it again for a week!  So I 
switched cleaning agents on the spot.  And it turned out that Freon-TF was 
also much harder on the elastomer parts like pinch rollers.  I cut the time 
spent cleaning heads and rollers by 90%.  Roller replacements went way down 
too.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Humor in the Court:
Q.  Doctor, did you say he was shot in the woods?
A.  No, I said he was shot in the lumbar region.
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Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:47:23 am drew Roberts did opine:

> On Saturday 17 July 2010 22:59:51 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:59:08 pm drew Roberts did opine:
> > > On Saturday 17 July 2010 17:17:05 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > > > Debouncing and live time of switches always is a gambling game.
> > > 
> > > Makes me remember key debouncing issues with the TRS-80 Model I
> > > keyboards...
> > > 
> > > drew
> > 
> > I think that should make both of us genuine old farts. :)
> 
> I started in my mid to late teens but I am getting there. Thankfully.
> 
> all the best,
> 
> drew

And I was in the 40's by then,, I'll be 76 in Oct, if this batch of 
fencepost holes don't finish me first.  A type 2 Diabetic, my warranty 
expired 30 years ago. ;-)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
A farmer is a man outstanding in his field.
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Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:08:03 am Folderol did opine:

> On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:49:24 -0400
> 
> Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > And I was in the 40's by then,, I'll be 76 in Oct, if this batch of
> > fencepost holes don't finish me first.  A type 2 Diabetic, my warranty
> > expired 30 years ago. ;-)
> 
> Woo! There's hope for the rest of us then :)

I never doubted that for an instant.  There are some real brains on this 
list.  If osmosis still worked on this old wet ram, I might actually learn 
something.

Sometimes this audio scene reminds me of a 'Marge' cartoon I have on the 
wall, which says "Just think, in 40 years we'll have all these tatooed old 
lady's running around, and Rap Music will be the golden oldies"  Scary 
thought to an old country music fan. ;-)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
"You've got to think about tomorrow!"
"TOMORROW!  I haven't even prepared for *_yesterday* 
yet!"
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Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday, July 19, 2010 02:28:56 pm drew Roberts did opine:

> On Sunday 18 July 2010 11:14:26 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Scary
> > thought to an old country music fan. ;-)
> 
> Who do you like? My dad was a fan and was always playing it around the
> house as well as taking us on trips to the opry and what not.

John Cash was the best, but his brother Tommy whom I have also met a couple 
of times is a long way down the list.  And of course I'll be in love with 
Loretta Lynn for the rest of my days.  The favorite list however, is quite 
long so I won't bore this list with it.
 
> Some of his tastes rubbed off on me.
> 
> drew
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Actually, what I'd like is a little toy spaceship!!
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