[LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[Florian Paul Schmidt]

Hi,

GIT repo:

https://github.com/fps/ladspamm

DOXYGEN docs (very minimal):

http://fps.github.com/ladspamm

For my own small side projects I needed a little c++ wrapper lib around 
LADSPA plugins. Since someone else might be interested in it, too, I put 
it on github.


ladspamm::world world;

ladspamm::plugin_instance instance(
 world.libraries[0]->plugins[0], 48000
);

instance.activate();

instantiates and activates the first found plugin in the first found 
library..


This is version 0.0.1 so expect bugs and missing features..

Have fun,
Flo

--
Florian Paul Schmidt
http://fps.io

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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[Ove Karlsen]

Mentioning LADSPA in 2013 is wildly outdated don´t you think?

I am a professional musician. I am also the developer of the millennium 
plugin suite, which is technically superior in anything it does, 
compared to closed-source variants.


This is a track mastered with my plugins, ultra-loud, good-sounding, 
minimal-phase gaussian EQ. etc etc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-0bxL9mZdY

More information on these can be found on my blog. - 
www.paradoxuncreated.com


What I think Linux audio needs is to combine efforts for professional 
and regular users.
There seems to be little combined direction in linux audio. There are 
several standards, and nobody really seems to care much for them. And 
audiodrivers seem to vary in quality, and you can get better results 
with alternatives less used.


What should be done is, rethink the whole audio signal path/stack with 
regards to the lowest possible latency. Audio is one of the places, one 
really cares about low latency. While latency on the linux kernel now, 
is good enough for most uses, the audio needs rethinking. I tried a 
brand-new USB Fireface UCX, in classcompliant mode, and it did not work 
at first, needed a patch, and then only got 5ms latency. And I have run 
0.33 ms with a firewire card. Looking at this from a high-level 
perspective it seems to be a software problem. On windows, it works 
without a problem, and with 1ms latency, with the firewire drivers. 
Linux audio really needs to be as good. And knowing MS engineering, it 
can easily be better.


What about a professional mixer, used system wide, where you can apply 
effects, eq, routing etc. Windows does not have this. And a good plugin 
standard (atleast 64bit float). And the mixer should ofcourse be good 
enough, so that people can simply use it in their DAW software. 
Everybody working and refining this element, should improve any DAW.


And things need to be quick and easy to use. No uneccesary mouseclicks. 
Look at Logic audio, maybe 5.5.1 on windows, it can be very fast to use. 
Later versions on mac are also good, but to be honest, a bit bloated for 
my tastes, and they also reduced the control rate on some stuff there, 
which I did not like at all.


And what about trying to establish a universal soundplayback engine, 
with atleast sampleaccurate timing.


Making a os-level mixer and sequencer, with the features expected by 
professional, but that also scales to normal users, with a 
"soundblaster" would be the optimal.


And I have already done world-class DSP plugins, so that you don´t even 
have to worry about.


So summing it up, a world-class mixing and sequencer stack, with 
low-latency interfacing, (think 0.2ms should be doable = virtual 
hardware), with the least obscure code and codepaths. And make it easy 
for anyone to get into making plugins. No obscurities.


Peace Be With You.


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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[gordonjcp]

On Mon, Jan 07, 2013 at 12:05:55PM +0100, Ove Karlsen wrote:
> Mentioning LADSPA in 2013 is wildly outdated don´t you think?
> 
> I am a professional musician. I am also the developer of the
> millennium plugin suite, which is technically superior in anything
> it does, compared to closed-source variants.

Why do you think LADSPA is outdated, and what do you use instead?

The whole reason I stopped developing the nekosynth plugins was because of the 
ungodly mess that is LV2.  VST is out, because I'm not interested in 
proprietary software.

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ

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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Ove Karlsen wrote:
> Mentioning LADSPA in 2013 is wildly outdated don´t you think?
>
> I am a professional musician. I am also the developer of the millennium
> plugin suite, which is technically superior in anything it does, compared to
> closed-source variants.

http://www.kvraudio.com/product/millennium_plugin_suite_by_paradox_uncreated

Avg. User Rating: Not Rated - Be the first!
KVR Rank: 3564

> More information on these can be found on my blog. - www.paradoxuncreated.com

They probably can be. Unfortunately it's going to take an army of
archaeologists to dig that out of religion-flavoured posts.  Would you
like to pinpoint the exact posts?

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[Ove Karlsen]

On 1/7/2013 12:51 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Ove Karlsen wrote:

Mentioning LADSPA in 2013 is wildly outdated don´t you think?

I am a professional musician. I am also the developer of the millennium
plugin suite, which is technically superior in anything it does, compared to
closed-source variants.

http://www.kvraudio.com/product/millennium_plugin_suite_by_paradox_uncreated

Avg. User Rating: Not Rated - Be the first!
KVR Rank: 3564


More information on these can be found on my blog. - www.paradoxuncreated.com

They probably can be. Unfortunately it's going to take an army of
archaeologists to dig that out of religion-flavoured posts.  Would you
like to pinpoint the exact posts?

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Your condescending tone will be completley ignored. Go back to pleasing 
your satanfriends fantasyconcepts in their, and the object that moves on 
it´s own. And KvR is trash, and I have alway outperformed them, 
sometimes in DAYS, what they have claimed to do for YEARS. Any opinion 
of KvR is completely invalid, and they protect gay toiletwhores. Anyone 
who does that can not be expected to have the mind to do quality 
engineering. Continue to be offensive, and gain full-life ban and ignore 
from my part.


Peace Be With You.
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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[Ove Karlsen]

On 1/7/2013 12:27 PM, gordon...@gjcp.net wrote:

On Mon, Jan 07, 2013 at 12:05:55PM +0100, Ove Karlsen wrote:

Mentioning LADSPA in 2013 is wildly outdated don´t you think?

I am a professional musician. I am also the developer of the
millennium plugin suite, which is technically superior in anything
it does, compared to closed-source variants.

Why do you think LADSPA is outdated, and what do you use instead?

The whole reason I stopped developing the nekosynth plugins was because of the 
ungodly mess that is LV2.  VST is out, because I'm not interested in 
proprietary software.

I am using windows and vst at the moment. I need to do work in a 
professional environment, and linux is not there yet.


Peace Be With You.
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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[Paul Davis]

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Ove Karlsen <
ove.karl...@paradoxuncreated.com> wrote:

>
> What I think Linux audio needs is to combine efforts for professional and
> regular users.
>

linux is not OS X. the changes required in the audio "stack" to unify these
two worlds would be rejected by a huge chunk of the developers on linux.
there is no stick available to force them to adapt, as apple did in the
1990's when it imposed CoreAudio on all of its developers.


> There seems to be little combined direction in linux audio.


see above.


> There are several standards, and nobody really seems to care much for them.


most developers using JACK seem very content with it. the quibbles seem
generally to be about edge cases with the API. pulseaudio isn't really a
"standard" especially given that it continues to recommend that developers
use the ALSA API and not the one that PA itself provides. as for plugin
APIs, it is not as if the proprietary world can be cited as an example of
convergence on The One Truth. Why does AU exist on OS X when there was
already VST? Why did digidesign announce its own new plugin (native) API
within the last year? Why does VST exist when there was already a plugin
API present as part of DirectSound? LV2 is a honest, serious attempt to (a)
tackle the problems caused by LADSPA's *intentional* focus on being SIMPLE
(b) create an extensible API. it suffers from the fact that it is
documented in terms that are obscure and even confusing to most programmers
(including me) - i'm constantly amazed at how simple most of it is once you
see a real example of just about anything - but like each and every plugin
API before (and after) it, it will have its fans and its detractors no
matter what.


> And audiodrivers seem to vary in quality, and you can get better results
> with alternatives less used.
>

when vendors write device drivers, you typically get the best possible
results for a given device. when 3rd parties write device drivers, often
simply using a specification (e.g. intel HDA) or worse, reverse
engineering, its absurd to expect the same level of functionality. the
drivers for devices whose vendors have actively supported their development
are as good as those on any other platform, particularly those where the
driver is responsible for the entire codepath from the h/w to user space
(i.e. PCI devices).


> What should be done is, rethink the whole audio signal path/stack with
> regards to the lowest possible latency. Audio is one of the places, one
> really cares about low latency. While latency on the linux kernel now, is
> good enough for most uses, the audio needs rethinking. I tried a brand-new
> USB Fireface UCX, in classcompliant mode, and it did not work at first,
> needed a patch,


welcome to the world of the linux firewire stack, which is developed and
maintained without a lot of interest in the particular needs of audio
interfaces (though less and less so these days). note also that firewire
audio interfaces are a dying breed (thanks apple!)


> and then only got 5ms latency. And I have run 0.33 ms with a firewire
> card. Looking at this from a high-level perspective it seems to be a
> software problem. On windows, it works without a problem, and with 1ms
> latency, with the firewire drivers. Linux audio really needs to be as good.
> And knowing MS engineering, it can easily be better.
>

why can it "easily be better" when at least half of the companies involved
in providing the technology are not interested in enabling


> What about a professional mixer, used system wide, where you can apply
> effects, eq, routing etc. Windows does not have this.


neither does OS X (though this is starting to change, undocumented). and
actually, windows *did* use to have this but it came with a 100msec latency
penalty.

we have a "professional mixer" where you can apply effects and routing on
Linux (and we also "gave" it to OS X and to a lesser extent, WIndows too),
but it does not run in kernel space. because of the issues i alluded to
earlier, it also is not capable of supporting all the requirements of
desktop applications, which is why pulseaudio exists. Pulseaudio does
things that no "professional" mixer needs, but that are incredibly useful
for consumer/desktop workflows.



> And a good plugin standard (atleast 64bit float).


there is absolutely no evidence that a 64 bit data path *between*
processing stages creates any detectable improvement in audio quality. in
fact, there are a few double blind tests that show that it makes no
difference whatsoever. with any plugin API, plugins are free to use
whatever data format they wish to. there are not many DSP algorithms that
are improved by using a 64 bit data format, so enforcing this on everything
(at this point in time) is unnecessary and counter-productive.

And things need to be quick and easy to use. No uneccesary mouseclicks.
> Look at Logic audio, maybe 5.5.1 on windows, it can be very fast to use.
> Later versions on mac are

Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[Benjamin Bruheim]

This tone is condescending indeed - "toiletwhores" is quite judgemental and
ugly. Please only talk audio engineering here, and not make judgments like
that. I can agree that KVR ain't the arbiter of everything and since
there's no ratings I don't see the point of mentioning it. But your
response is ugly and condescending. Anyway, on-topic.

I did find the interesting pages tho:
http://paradoxuncreated.com/Blog/wordpress/?page_id=75
and
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pxu/files/

I wish you could clarify the license. Eg. LGPL.

Also, LADSPA is a only just-another-pluginformat, and it doesn't really
matter if it is VST or LADSPA. Actually I like LADSPA because it doesn't
make any assumptions about UI. But we just have to accept there's no single
pluginformat since they all cater for different needs. Eg DSSI often ends
up being impossible to use on other platforms since it makes so many
linux-centric assumptions. And there are a handful of more formats too. So
OSS projects just end up supporting an array of plugin-systems anyway.

\\ Benjamin


On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Ove Karlsen <
ove.karl...@paradoxuncreated.com> wrote:

> On 1/7/2013 12:51 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Ove Karlsen wrote:
>>
>>> Mentioning LADSPA in 2013 is wildly outdated don´t you think?
>>>
>>> I am a professional musician. I am also the developer of the millennium
>>> plugin suite, which is technically superior in anything it does,
>>> compared to
>>> closed-source variants.
>>>
>> http://www.kvraudio.com/**product/millennium_plugin_**
>> suite_by_paradox_uncreated
>>
>> Avg. User Rating: Not Rated - Be the first!
>> KVR Rank: 3564
>>
>>  More information on these can be found on my blog. -
>>> www.paradoxuncreated.com
>>>
>> They probably can be. Unfortunately it's going to take an army of
>> archaeologists to dig that out of religion-flavoured posts.  Would you
>> like to pinpoint the exact posts?
>>
>> Alexandre Prokoudine
>> http://libregraphicsworld.org
>> __**_
>> Linux-audio-dev mailing list
>> Linux-audio-dev@lists.**linuxaudio.org
>> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/**listinfo/linux-audio-dev
>>
>>
> Your condescending tone will be completley ignored. Go back to pleasing
> your satanfriends fantasyconcepts in their, and the object that moves on
> it´s own. And KvR is trash, and I have alway outperformed them, sometimes
> in DAYS, what they have claimed to do for YEARS. Any opinion of KvR is
> completely invalid, and they protect gay toiletwhores. Anyone who does that
> can not be expected to have the mind to do quality engineering. Continue to
> be offensive, and gain full-life ban and ignore from my part.
>
> Peace Be With You.
>
> __**_
> Linux-audio-dev mailing list
> Linux-audio-dev@lists.**linuxaudio.org
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/**listinfo/linux-audio-dev
>
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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[Florian Paul Schmidt]

On 01/07/2013 12:05 PM, Ove Karlsen wrote:

Mentioning LADSPA in 2013 is wildly outdated don´t you think?



Yeah, I wondered whether to put the following remark at the top of the 
mail: "I know this is probably ten years too late..." but decided 
against it since I still find the simplicity of LADSPA to be appealing 
for a range of tasks..


[snipped the rest of the post as it wasn't related to ladspamm]

Have fun,
Flo


--
Florian Paul Schmidt
http://fps.io

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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Ove Karlsen wrote:

>>> I am a professional musician. I am also the developer of the millennium
>>> plugin suite, which is technically superior in anything it does, compared
>>> to
>>> closed-source variants.
> Your condescending tone will be completley ignored. Go back to pleasing your
> satanfriends fantasyconcepts in their, and the object that moves on it´s
> own. And KvR is trash, and I have alway outperformed them, sometimes in
> DAYS, what they have claimed to do for YEARS. Any opinion of KvR is
> completely invalid, and they protect gay toiletwhores. Anyone who does that
> can not be expected to have the mind to do quality engineering. Continue to
> be offensive, and gain full-life ban and ignore from my part.

Dear Ove,

In a list where probably every 2nd subscriber wrote a limiter, using
expressions like "technically superior" is a call for cutting
bullshit.

But hey, I'm quite prepared to give you a hug for every insult you made :)

I know, arguing about offtopic things seems so much more fun to you,
but let's get back on topic, shall we?

> What about a professional mixer, used system wide, where you can apply 
> effects, eq, routing etc.

As a matter of fact, we have that. It's in PulseAudio 3.0, except
there's no UI for that yet, not until pavucontrol is released.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ladspamm - a small c++ library for handling LADSPA plugins

[gordonjcp]

On Mon, Jan 07, 2013 at 01:23:39PM +0100, Ove Karlsen wrote:

> I am using windows and vst at the moment. I need to do work in a
> professional environment, and linux is not there yet.

On the Linux Audio Developer list, Windows is distinctly offtopic.  I'm not 
aware of any professional-grade audio software for Windows, or indeed the PC 
platform at all.

Find me a sequencer that can actually keep time on a PC, and I'll start to 
consider it suitable for professional use.

-- 
Gordonjcp MM0YEQ

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