Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Hi, In my case the marshall stacks were replaced by the POD HD. There is no audible reason to think the marshall stack is better then modern physical simulation/modeling techniques. The only difference is the experience of standing in front of a speaker stack, and feeling the breeze in the hair. Oh wait, not even that: A good PA suffices for wind generation. So its only upto the musicians taste. No one could tell a fullblown stack from a good simulation just by ear! Gerald On 08/24/2014 08:46 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: ! Why are Marshall stacks not replaced by Zoom, Guitarix and friends directly connected to the PA? ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 22:56 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: why musicians could prefer the digital way, if at least the end up in a digital media. When recording a guitar at midnight in a rental apartment I play my guitar directly connected to the mixing console, resp. some preamplification is better before using the mixer. Sometimes amp and speaker simulations can be used, but often they are too sluggish. EQs digital or analog) and early reflections (digital) often are more promising. I'm not against digital gear for guitars, OTOH tube gear has some advantages and even analog transistor gear. I mentioned the Boss Sustainer and Turbo Overdrive. Both effects can be done digital too, but the advantage when using those effects is, that you automatically get a preamp. The Hughes Kettner tube preamp is much better. At home we usually can not record a guitar amp, in a studio we can do. A flight simulator is good to practise flying, but if you want to travel, you need to use a real plane. There is nothing like a tube emulation. You can not use a mixer or sound card input with a completely different responding quality and frequency response than those provided by tubes and Celestion speakers and use an algorithm to simulate something that is missing. It's possible to handle the frequencies, when there are only frequencies to cut, but impossible to emulate a missing responding quality. For guitar the simulations are to sluggish, the responding quality of the sound cards or mixers are different to those of tube amps. Regarding the tube microphone emulation, let your Sure mic sound like a Neuman or Brauner, it's not only the tube, but much more the missing frequency response of the capsule. On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 22:53 +0100, James Morris wrote: Bring out the pitchforks, someone dares to not keep up with the times, burn him at the stake! You are missing the context. I'm pro old equipment, but against equipment that tries to fake vintage gear, claiming to use modern methods, while it even doesn't use the available algorithms. And again, you can simulate a flight, but you can't travel using a flight simulator. IOW if you know what to do, you can provide digital EQs and things like that, but you can not provide preamp and amp simulation, when the preamp from the mixer or sound card simply can not do what's needed for guitar. Perhaps you noticed that one of the threads is about pickups and the different sound, when using a guitar amp and when using other gear. I'm not a bonehead, I simply confront you with the technical facts. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 08:16 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Perhaps you noticed that one of the threads is about pickups and the different sound, when using a guitar amp and when using other gear. I'm not a bonehead, I simply confront you with the technical facts. And hear it is: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 07:19 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: I have a classical guitar that I put a piezo into. Ok, I broke a piezo buzzer open, put wires on the disk and used putty to stick it under the bridge :) When plugged into my mixer (impedance 10k?) it sounded really bad. I could eq it to not bad, but it took a lot of eq to do so. My wife has a fishman loudmouth guitar amp made for acoustic guitars and plugging into that made it sound wonderful with no eq at all. If Len would use Guitarix, it won't change anything, the preamp of the mixer already is the culprit. And as soon as you use a preamp, such as the Hughes Kettner I mentioned, then you could use an amp emulation, but then you don't need it anymore. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 15:25 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Piezos have a capacitive impedance, together with the preamp resistive input impedance this forms a first order highpass filter. A typical mic input is around 2 kOhms, this would place the cutoff frequency somewhere in the high audio range, with 6 dB/oct below that. Could be EQ'd in theory, but for musical use it's usually better to use a high-Z preamp. Have you tested Guitarix? Hermann claims that Guitarix fix such an issue, if you know how to handle Guitarix. I'm to bonehead to waste my time trying to fix such a technical issue using Guitarix, perhaps somebody approachable is willing to learn how to use Guitarix to eliminate technical facts by the magic of Guitarix tube amp emulation algorithms. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 09:02:34AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 15:25 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Piezos have a capacitive impedance, together with the preamp resistive input impedance this forms a first order highpass filter. A typical mic input is around 2 kOhms, this would place the cutoff frequency somewhere in the high audio range, with 6 dB/oct below that. Could be EQ'd in theory, but for musical use it's usually better to use a high-Z preamp. Have you tested Guitarix? Hermann claims that Guitarix fix such an issue, if you know how to handle Guitarix. And in theory it could, but I don't think Hermann is advising anyone to use Guitarix to fix a technical issue such as this one. For a piezo pickup you need the right preamp, either a very high-Z one or a charge amplifier. Not to create any 'sound' but just to make it work as intended. This has nothing at all to do with Guitarix or even tube emulation in general, so you better stop whining about it. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 08:13 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 09:02:34AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 15:25 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Piezos have a capacitive impedance, together with the preamp resistive input impedance this forms a first order highpass filter. A typical mic input is around 2 kOhms, this would place the cutoff frequency somewhere in the high audio range, with 6 dB/oct below that. Could be EQ'd in theory, but for musical use it's usually better to use a high-Z preamp. Have you tested Guitarix? Hermann claims that Guitarix fix such an issue, if you know how to handle Guitarix. And in theory it could, There's to much interaction regarding the dynamic playing done by the guitar player and the preamplification, unlikely that it make sense trying to fix it by a digital algorithm. The output of most simulations usually is without dynamic and add much noise. but I don't think Hermann is advising anyone to use Guitarix to fix a technical issue such as this one. For a piezo pickup you need the right preamp, either a very high-Z one or a charge amplifier. Not to create any 'sound' but just to make it work as intended. This has nothing at all to do with Guitarix or even tube emulation in general, so you better stop whining about it. Actually I was talking about preamps when using a guitar plugged into a mixer. Feel free to search the mailing list archive. Hermann recommended to use Guitarix and started dissing me, when I said that Guitarix can not provide what has to be done by the right amplification in the first place. Please don't misrepresent it. Hermann claimed something without understanding what the discussion was about and he claimed something that should be provided by Guitarix, that can not be provided. I pointed out that even plugging in a Boss transistor stompbox between guitar and mixer (or sound card) sometimes is better to fix the main issue, than using amp and speaker emulations. Hermann claimed that this isn't true, Guitarix does the trick, no correct preamp is needed. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:13:28 + Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: ... or a charge amplifier. Interesting you mention that. I was wondering if that sort of thing would work, although I didn't know the name - I had to look it up :) -- Will J Godfrey http://www.musically.me.uk Say you have a poem and I have a tune. Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:41:44AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Hermann claimed something without understanding what the discussion was about So he made a mistake. No reason to amplify that out of proportion. -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 09:47 +0100, Will Godfrey wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:13:28 + Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: ... or a charge amplifier. Interesting you mention that. I was wondering if that sort of thing would work, although I didn't know the name - I had to look it up :) Unfortunately the English Wiki for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_pickup#Preamps doesn't mention the Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_amplifier , while the charge amplifier Wiki links to the guitar pickup Wiki. For Germans I recommend http://www.sengpielaudio.com/ , no liability assumed. People often claim that Wiki knowhow isn't that good, but the knowhow about audio engineering in German Wikis usually is very good. I wasn't aware that many Wikis are written by Sengpiel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberhard_Sengpiel , but there are a lot of other good Wikis about audio engineering that seem to be written by others. Perhaps somebody with better English skills than mine, should share some audio knowhow in the way it's done in German. I never read a German audio engineering Wiki and wanted to correct something, all I read was superb. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 09:47:31AM +0100, Will Godfrey wrote: On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:13:28 + Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: ... or a charge amplifier. Interesting you mention that. I was wondering if that sort of thing would work, although I didn't know the name - I had to look it up :) The output produced by a piezo is an electric charge proportional to the mechanical input, so a charge amp is the right way to capture it, and the standard one for scientific or technical use. Basically what a charge amp does is to short-circuit the piezo and integrate the resulting current. And since current * time = charge, this produces the right output. What happens with a high-Z input instead is that the capacitance of the piezo itself plus that of the cable acts as the integrator. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 08:51 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:41:44AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Hermann claimed something without understanding what the discussion was about So he made a mistake. No reason to amplify that out of proportion. My apologies, my apologies also to Hermann. Indeed, there was no need to expand the discussion. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 25.08.2014 10:51, schrieb Fons Adriaensen: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:41:44AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Hermann claimed something without understanding what the discussion was about So he made a mistake. No reason to amplify that out of proportion. for the record, here we go http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/2014-August/thread.html#35207 All I do is just to require ralf to stop compare bananas with peaches. (Okay, it's eggplants what I talk about. peaches, do someone mention peaches? apples? oranges? Oh shit, . . . ) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 25.08.2014 08:16, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 22:56 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: why musicians could prefer the digital way, if at least the end up in a digital media. When recording a guitar at [umpf..))/%$§!`?=)( when recording your guitar, that would be welcome, just do it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoHMuLXH8ew ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Len Ovens l...@ovenwerks.net wrote: On Sat, 23 Aug 2014, Grekim Jennings wrote: The best situation is if you have converters with analog trims, which is I think what you were saying, and set them accordingly for each preamp. I leave my preamps plugged into a specific A/D channels that have been calibrated for that preamp. That would be the best thing so long as you have the channels and equipment to do so. A lot of people have two channels with a builtin pre a pre that the litterature says is modeled on some super Britsh Console pre that all the hits used, but is in fact just another two pre on a chip deal with a tweak in the freq response to colour it. In general the best thing seems to be a line in (+4 with lots of head room) and a pre matched to the mic. Possibly with some eq. I think a good preamp can make a difference to what needs to be done to fix the sound at mixdown. That is why I said money is often better spent on mics and preamps. I guess most amateurs go straight from mic to preamp/converter now days, but if using some gear in between, proper gain staging is essential. Set the gain at the input stage and keep the signal hot but not too hot through your chain (preferably by matching line levels between input and output). Another often missed point is that mics can sound different depending on the impedance of the preamp input. I would agree that now days the best spent money would go into mics and pres, and possibly hardware EQs and compressors too B) I'd also contend that if recording with a decent converter to 24bit, then recording to -10 or -20 dB FS would not present a problem at all, rather it would give a good headroom safety margin. And one could always normalize the track before mixing if so desired. If the signal picked up by the mic is too hot for the preamp, it would seem a no brainer to buy or build a few pads to be able to reduce the signal presented to the preamp. -- Joakim ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:52:33AM +0200, Joakim Hernberg wrote: I guess most amateurs go straight from mic to preamp/converter now days, but if using some gear in between, proper gain staging is essential. That's where things get to go wrong. Another often missed point is that mics can sound different depending on the impedance of the preamp input. Yes, but assuming there's no distortion, the difference amounts to some EQ. I would agree that now days the best spent money would go into mics and pres, and possibly hardware EQs and compressors too There's really no point in hardware EQ today if your signal ends up to be digital. That said, some software EQs are really bad, usually the result of turning some textbook equation into code without understanding it. Same for many software compressors. But both can be near perfect as well. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 24 Aug 2014, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:52:33AM +0200, Joakim Hernberg wrote: Another often missed point is that mics can sound different depending on the impedance of the preamp input. Yes, but assuming there's no distortion, the difference amounts to some EQ. That is true and for most studio mics (anyone use crystal mics?) it would be minimal. Anytime eq is used to bring back low level frequencies, it is likely to bring back the noise around that frequency too. Instrument pickups are most sensitive to this. I have a classical guitar that I put a piezo into. Ok, I broke a piezo buzzer open, put wires on the disk and used putty to stick it under the bridge :) When plugged into my mixer (impedance 10k?) it sounded really bad. I could eq it to not bad, but it took a lot of eq to do so. My wife has a fishman loudmouth guitar amp made for acoustic guitars and plugging into that made it sound wonderful with no eq at all. The only thing I found was that phase reverse made a big difference in feedback sensitivity... I guess I need to flip the element over or reverse the cable. Certaimly this is an extreme example and while a pickup is nice for performing, I normally use a mic for this guitar for recording. The point being, that while it is obvious that impedance needs to be reasonable to begin with, a lot of people's eyes glaze over with the first use of the word. For many people the best thing is a mic with a USB plug on it. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 07:19:11AM -0700, Len Ovens wrote: That is true and for most studio mics (anyone use crystal mics?) it would be minimal. Anytime eq is used to bring back low level frequencies, it is likely to bring back the noise around that frequency too. Instrument pickups are most sensitive to this. I have a classical guitar that I put a piezo into. Piezos have a capacitive impedance, together with the preamp resistive input impedance this forms a first order highpass filter. A typical mic input is around 2 kOhms, this would place the cutoff frequency somewhere in the high audio range, with 6 dB/oct below that. Could be EQ'd in theory, but for musical use it's usually better to use a high-Z preamp. Some specialised preamps (e.g. for piezo hydrophones), actually do use a 'zero impedance' input, and integrate the signal to compensate. This provides the best FR and the most stable calibration, and allows the use of very long cables.. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 24.08.2014 05:29, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: It was a big difference to non-tube gear. No EQ, no Guitarix Co. can compare with the Hughes Kettner tube preamp. Remains me on a situation several years ago. I travel around in Turkey, visit a local market, to buy some food. The women behind the stand pray to me her eggplants, I say, no, thanks, I didn't like how they taste. She says, If you don't know how to handle them, then they wouldn't be tasteful, but if you do it right, they are delicious. She told me how to make it, and up to today, I love to prepare eggplants for my dinner. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 18:48 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: Am 24.08.2014 05:29, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: It was a big difference to non-tube gear. No EQ, no Guitarix Co. can compare with the Hughes Kettner tube preamp. Remains me on a situation several years ago. I travel around in Turkey, visit a local market, to buy some food. The women behind the stand pray to me her eggplants, I say, no, thanks, I didn't like how they taste. She says, If you don't know how to handle them, then they wouldn't be tasteful, but if you do it right, they are delicious. She told me how to make it, and up to today, I love to prepare eggplants for my dinner. Reminds me of effects that emulate tube microphones. Plug in your Sure SM58, select Brauner VM1 and an algorithm will generate everything missing by the SM58, based on the information provided by the SM58. This on the other hand reminds me of Jerry Bruckheimer and Co.'s scientific soaps. An observation camera shows somebody from behind and the digital forensics guys use an algorithm that calculates the view showing the face of the person, whose face wasn't recorded. Preparing an eggplant is easy to do, handling algorithms faking abilities also is easy to do. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 24.08.2014 19:43, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: This on the other hand reminds me of Jerry Bruckheimer and Co.'s scientific soaps. An observation camera shows somebody from behind and the digital forensics guys use an algorithm that calculates the view showing the face of the person, whose face wasn't recorded. Preparing an eggplant is easy to do, handling algorithms faking abilities also is easy to do. That just shows you will, and I mean you will, not you could, never understand the scientific behind tube emulation, and modular emulation of hardware gear. greetings hermann ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 24.08.2014 20:23, schrieb hermann meyer: Am 24.08.2014 19:43, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: This on the other hand reminds me of Jerry Bruckheimer and Co.'s scientific soaps. An observation camera shows somebody from behind and the digital forensics guys use an algorithm that calculates the view showing the face of the person, whose face wasn't recorded. Preparing an eggplant is easy to do, handling algorithms faking abilities also is easy to do. That just shows you will, and I mean you will, not you could, never understand the scientific behind tube emulation, and modular emulation of hardware gear. greetings hermann As well it seems to me that you didn't know how to make a eggplant delicacies. ;-) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 20:23 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: Am 24.08.2014 19:43, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: This on the other hand reminds me of Jerry Bruckheimer and Co.'s scientific soaps. An observation camera shows somebody from behind and the digital forensics guys use an algorithm that calculates the view showing the face of the person, whose face wasn't recorded. Preparing an eggplant is easy to do, handling algorithms faking abilities also is easy to do. That just shows you will, and I mean you will, not you could, never understand the scientific behind tube emulation, and modular emulation of hardware gear. Winfried Knobloch Röhrentechnik ganz modern Pflaum Verlag München ISBN 3-7905-0660-5. IIRC around 20 years ago a former friend released some notes about this topic in the VDT-Magazin, IIRC he at least has given a talk at a Tonmeistertagung about it. Anyway, I experienced that recording an e. guitar from an elCheapo transistor amp with an elCheapo microphone at low volumes (when living in a rental apartment) always sounds better, than tube amp and speaker emulations, just the Hughes Kettner tube preamp was amazing, when connecting the guitar directly to the mixer. Guitarix and all proprietary simulations sometimes can be used, but usually even a Boss CS-3 or Boss OD-2, a parametric EQ provided by the mixer and e.g. a SPX90II early reflection already beats Zoom, Guitarix and friends. YMMV! Why are Marshall stacks not replaced by Zoom, Guitarix and friends directly connected to the PA? ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 20:36 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: As well it seems to me that you didn't know how to make a eggplant delicacies. ;-) That might be true :D, it's a matter of taste. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 24.08.2014 20:46, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 20:23 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: Am 24.08.2014 19:43, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: This on the other hand reminds me of Jerry Bruckheimer and Co.'s scientific soaps. An observation camera shows somebody from behind and the digital forensics guys use an algorithm that calculates the view showing the face of the person, whose face wasn't recorded. Preparing an eggplant is easy to do, handling algorithms faking abilities also is easy to do. That just shows you will, and I mean you will, not you could, never understand the scientific behind tube emulation, and modular emulation of hardware gear. Winfried Knobloch Röhrentechnik ganz modern Pflaum Verlag München ISBN 3-7905-0660-5. IIRC around 20 years ago a former friend released some notes about this topic in the VDT-Magazin, IIRC he at least has given a talk at a Tonmeistertagung about it. Anyway, I experienced that recording an e. guitar from an elCheapo transistor amp with an elCheapo microphone at low volumes (when living in a rental apartment) always sounds better, than tube amp and speaker emulations, just the Hughes Kettner tube preamp was amazing, when connecting the guitar directly to the mixer. Guitarix and all proprietary simulations sometimes can be used, but usually even a Boss CS-3 or Boss OD-2, a parametric EQ provided by the mixer and e.g. a SPX90II early reflection already beats Zoom, Guitarix and friends. YMMV! Why are Marshall stacks not replaced by Zoom, Guitarix and friends directly connected to the PA? Exact the answer I expected from you, and, sorry, but I haven't the time, nor any fun in explain to you how to use guitarix, just, leave it behind you and, do me a pleasure, delete all your guitarix stuff and didn't talk about it anymore, PLEASE. Talk about Guitar Rig, or what ever you use, but stop talking about stuff you didn't use nor understand to use. best hermann ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 20:57 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: Exact the answer I expected from you, and, sorry, but I haven't the time, nor any fun in explain to you how to use guitarix, just, leave it behind you and, do me a pleasure, delete all your guitarix stuff and didn't talk about it anymore, PLEASE. Talk about Guitar Rig, or what ever you use, but stop talking about stuff you didn't use nor understand to use. JFTR I don't use Guitar Rig, I don't use Windows or a Mac, but it does provider some nice things, such as a step sequencer for the guitar. As I already pointed out, all simulations can be used sometimes, but most of the times any elCheapo amp recorded by any elCheapo mic at disgusting low volumes sounds better. For clean guitars a Boss CS-3 and for overdrive a Boss OD-2 and a little bit of an 80th early reflection + the mixer's parametric EQ usually will do better, than Guitarix, Guitar Rig and others. IIRC Zoom was the first who introduced those emulations to the masses. Between 20 and 30 years ago Zoom released a kind of Guitar Amp Walkman, I don't remember it's name, it was similar to what Guitarix provides nowadays. No doubt about it, Zoom, Guitarix and others are useful for some tasks, but they can not provide what they claim to provide. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 24.08.2014 21:11, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: but they can not provide what they claim to provide. Because you didn't know how to make it delicious.:-(;-) Again, please stop talking about what you didn't use nor understand to use. As a side note, a couple of people use guitarix regular on stage, just,in opposite to you, they understand how to use it, and how to make it sound delicious. For the case you would experience a bit more with guitarix, start to use the tube screamer in front and the tonestack followed by the convolver in the back. Otherwise, please respect my previous post ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
PS: Instead of an 80th early reflection, I used an IR that came with jconvolver (IIRC that time it was named jconv or similar). When I noticed that guitarix included jconv I tried out guitarix, because jconv's drawback was, that it only could be set up by a config file, no real-time editing was possible. I tested Guitarix and noticed that the stereo IR was used mono. Linux already provided the stereo IR, something that Lexicon already provided decades before, just guitarix crippled it to mono. Perhaps I missed something, since I experienced Guitarix as a tool that did neither keep pace with the times, nor it keeps place with the times = 20 years ago. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 21:24 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: As a side note, a couple of people use guitarix regular on stage Do they use guitarix's effects, such as a flanger, or the amp and speaker simulation? I seriously doubt that any musician who has got a choice, by choice does prefer what ever digital simulation (Guitarix or any other) over a real good or even odd guitar amp. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 24.08.2014 21:33, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: PS: Instead of an 80th early reflection, I used an IR that came with jconvolver (IIRC that time it was named jconv or similar). When I noticed that guitarix included jconv I tried out guitarix, because jconv's drawback was, that it only could be set up by a config file, no real-time editing was possible. I tested Guitarix and noticed that the stereo IR was used mono. Linux already provided the stereo IR, something that Lexicon already provided decades before, just guitarix crippled it to mono. Perhaps I missed something, since I experienced Guitarix as a tool that did neither keep pace with the times, nor it keeps place with the times = 20 years ago. Guitarix didn't include jconv, but a (2) interface to zita-convlover. It include a mono and as well a stereo interface. If you load a^stero file in the mono convolver, it will be used, OH, Surprise, ta, ta ,ta ,at M,MM,, Mono. Ups, use the stereo convolver if you would use a stereo IR file in stereo. Again, you didn't use guitarix, nor do you know were you talk about. AFAIK, you didn't test, you just go as long as it fits your prejudices. Again, How often do I need to ask you that, please, go ahead, stop talking about guitarix, you didn't use it, nor do you have any idea about how to use it, nor do you want to use it., go on, make your deal for what ever you do, but, please, gimme the freedom, as I provide it with my work, gimme it back. respect my soul, please. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 24.08.2014 21:44, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 21:24 +0200, hermann meyer wrote: As a side note, a couple of people use guitarix regular on stage Do they use guitarix's effects, such as a flanger, or the amp and speaker simulation? I seriously doubt that any musician who has got a choice, by choice does prefer what ever digital simulation (Guitarix or any other) over a real good or even odd guitar amp. Seriously, I doubt that you are a musician. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Please could anybody AES and/or VDT chime in? Feel free to blame me, assumed I'm mistaken and back up Hermann's claims. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 24.08.2014 22:27, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: Please could anybody AES and/or VDT chime in? Feel free to blame me, assumed I'm mistaken and back up Hermann's claims. http://player.vimeo.com/video/98178317?title=0byline=0portrait=0api=1 ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Am 24.08.2014 22:27, schrieb Ralf Mardorf: Please could anybody AES and/or VDT chime in? Feel free to blame me, assumed I'm mistaken and back up Hermann's claims. http://portalmod.com/blog/2014/08/mod-duo-harmonizer-gx-tube-simulator/ I guess you are to bonehead to understand. http://portalmod.com/blog/2014/08/mod-duo-harmonizer-gx-tube-simulator/ why musicians could prefer the digital way, if at least the end up in a digital media. O:-) :-( ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 21:33:03 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: PS: Instead of an 80th early reflection, I used an IR that came with jconvolver (IIRC that time it was named jconv or similar). When I noticed that guitarix included jconv I tried out guitarix, because jconv's drawback was, that it only could be set up by a config file, no real-time editing was possible. I tested Guitarix and noticed that the stereo IR was used mono. Linux already provided the stereo IR, something that Lexicon already provided decades before, just guitarix crippled it to mono. Perhaps I missed something, since I experienced Guitarix as a tool that did neither keep pace with the times, nor it keeps place with the times = 20 years ago. Bring out the pitchforks, someone dares to not keep up with the times, burn him at the stake! ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 07:19:11AM -0700, Len Ovens wrote: Certaimly this is an extreme example and while a pickup is nice for performing, I normally use a mic for this guitar for recording. Still some piezo pickups can produce a really nice sound when used on a good instrument, in particular for the more jazzy genres. I've been amazed by this many times. For many people the best thing is a mic with a USB plug on it. Sadly, yes. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 07:56 -0400, Grekim Jennings wrote: I have a Presonus Audiobox which can sound fine for an acoustic guitar, but throw a drum at it and it is automatically over full scale and unusable. Actually you cant blame a preamp, if the microphone is missing a PAD switch. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Saturday 23 August 2014 08:11:01 Ralf Mardorf did opine And Gene did reply: On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 07:56 -0400, Grekim Jennings wrote: I have a Presonus Audiobox which can sound fine for an acoustic guitar, but throw a drum at it and it is automatically over full scale and unusable. Actually you cant blame a preamp, if the microphone is missing a PAD switch. That is not something I have seen in a mike, but one really should carry an adapter to allow the mike to be fed into a line input. Sent out to record a session of the State University of Iowa Scottish Highlanders, which was scheduled to be on a 20 or so acre practice field, it started to rain so they had moved into a quonset hut along one edge of the property. I had the best tape deck in our inventory at Woodburn Sound Service in Iowa City, a Tandberg, which had slightly better specs than a Berlant we also had, and a legendarily good mike, an Altec M-21-b (hey this is 1957 folks that mike sold new for 600 1957 dollars!) when they fired up the 22 bagpipes inside that quonset hut, it was not only painful to my ears, I found I had to clip lead the mike into the line input, and was hitting +3 on the vu meter at a gain crank of about 1.25 on a 10 scale. But the recording itself turned out fairly decent and we sold about 65 copies on single sided acetate disks, cut on our own recording lathe. The M-21-b was a powered condenser mike, ran on 150 volts of bias, had a 6AT6 vacuum tube in it for a cathode follower output and could make around 140 volts p-p at its output into a 10k load. That was the mike they used to record the cannon shots, about 6 below the muzzle of the cannon, for the Mercury Records version of the Overture of 1812. With that sort of headroom in its output, it simply didn't clip. It was also rated 20HZ-17Khz flat. When Emory Cook went to Trinidad to record the then illegal steel drums, the recordings also contained the crickets, very faithfully reproduced on his 78 rpm lp's of the day. But my lifelong familiarity with tinnitus started in that quonset hut. And I haven't heard a cricket in 50 some years. OTOH, wearing out several high power rifle barrels at the target range over the last 50 years has also had its effect even if wearing 30+ db ear muffs to do it. Un-Funny thing about that is that when I walk into a store with an ultrasonic Doppler burglar alarm, I am in instant ear pain and can't get out of that store soon enough. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 08:56 -0400, Grekim Jennings wrote: On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 07:56 -0400, Grekim Jennings wrote: I have a Presonus Audiobox which can sound fine for an acoustic guitar, but throw a drum at it and it is automatically over full scale and unusable. Actually you cant blame a preamp, if the microphone is missing a PAD switch. A pad would solve the problem, but it's hardly a requirement of a good microphone and a purist would probably say it's a bad idea to add that to a mic. It's just not a professional preamp so I didn't have high expectations. Some high class microphones for good reasons add a PAD switch. Some of the best microphones can't accommodate all signal levels, IOW usually the microphone's amp can't handle the input from the capsule. If the microphone has got no PAD switch, then you need to back off the microphone from the drums or what ever sound source does produce the loudness. Indeed, if the microphones amp can handle the signal level, using it's PAD switch isn't the best idea, OTOH inaudible more noise and what ever else could be caused by the microphone's PAD switch is better than not being able to use the microphone, even if not the mic's amp should be the culprit. A mic-preamp should be able to handle the input from all microphones. On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 10:00 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: That is not something I have seen in a mike, but one really should carry an adapter to allow the mike to be fed into a line input. Neuman and Brauner microphones provide it. Not all microphones need it. But my lifelong familiarity with tinnitus started in that quonset hut. Audio engineers should live in cities. At the moment I'm able to hear my tinnitus, perhaps it's louder, because I've got a cold, but usually the noise from the city is that loud, that I can't hear my tinnitus. And I haven't heard a cricket in 50 some years. I'm still able to hear crickets. Perhaps your occupational disease is more serious. Anyway, many audio engineers suffer from tinnitus, but usually they don't suffer from being cloth-eared, because they did something stupid, as many other, even young people do. I'm not sure if the audio engineer's occupational disease tinnitus is caused by audio signals, tension (mental and/or of the musculature) could cause this too. Regards, Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Saturday 23 August 2014 12:30:35 Ralf Mardorf did opine And Gene did reply: On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 08:56 -0400, Grekim Jennings wrote: On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 07:56 -0400, Grekim Jennings wrote: I have a Presonus Audiobox which can sound fine for an acoustic guitar, but throw a drum at it and it is automatically over full scale and unusable. Actually you cant blame a preamp, if the microphone is missing a PAD switch. A pad would solve the problem, but it's hardly a requirement of a good microphone and a purist would probably say it's a bad idea to add that to a mic. It's just not a professional preamp so I didn't have high expectations. Some high class microphones for good reasons add a PAD switch. Some of the best microphones can't accommodate all signal levels, IOW usually the microphone's amp can't handle the input from the capsule. If the microphone has got no PAD switch, then you need to back off the microphone from the drums or what ever sound source does produce the loudness. Indeed, if the microphones amp can handle the signal level, using it's PAD switch isn't the best idea, OTOH inaudible more noise and what ever else could be caused by the microphone's PAD switch is better than not being able to use the microphone, even if not the mic's amp should be the culprit. A mic-preamp should be able to handle the input from all microphones. On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 10:00 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: That is not something I have seen in a mike, but one really should carry an adapter to allow the mike to be fed into a line input. Neuman and Brauner microphones provide it. Not all microphones need it. But my lifelong familiarity with tinnitus started in that quonset hut. Audio engineers should live in cities. At the moment I'm able to hear my tinnitus, perhaps it's louder, because I've got a cold, but usually the noise from the city is that loud, that I can't hear my tinnitus. And I haven't heard a cricket in 50 some years. I'm still able to hear crickets. Perhaps your occupational disease is more serious. And has had 40 more years for the 120+ db noise abuse that causes it, to cause it. I do have some decades on you, Ralf. :) I can hear it right now, over the noise of several computer fans in this room. Anyway, many audio engineers suffer from tinnitus, but usually they don't suffer from being cloth-eared, because they did something stupid, as many other, even young people do. I'm not sure if the audio engineer's occupational disease tinnitus is caused by audio signals, tension (mental and/or of the musculature) could cause this too. Regards, Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sat, 23 Aug 2014, Grekim Jennings wrote: Partly also for historical reasons, I think. In many ways digital recording started as the poor man's tape. Direct to disk recording with no effects was at first all that could be handled and most peole using it were replacing 8 track tape with it. They already had a mixer. As the DAW developed, mix down on the computer has been next. But for many people the recording part of the strip has been outside of the DAW, on an analog mixer. This is changing as a new batch of people are going mic- interface. Their input strip is whatever the interface provides... often only trim (either as a pot on the pre or in ALSA). Is this for convenience or not having the ability to afford something else? I think a lot of times money is spent on the wrong thing such as buying a fancy multicore computer when something from 8 years ago is totally adequate for digital audio. true and not. I just upgraded to the i5 because my older P4, while able to record audio, was on the edge of being able to deal with the number of tracks (9 or 10) I was using. Also, it was not enough to test some setups that I was helping others with, like idjc, streaming from two compressed files and a skype call. Something I can do no problem with the new box. The recording I was doing was all audio in, no soft synth, no effects while recording. Effects were added at high latency during mixdown. There are audio tasks that can not be done on an older computer. I could probably make do with a two core i3, but I am not sure. Some of the people I know who are doing audio with video would find my new computer is not powerful enough. I would have gotten an i7, but I found the only difference I could find was that they had hyperthreading which is not lowlatency friendly (I had to turn HT off on the P4 to get solid low latency). In another thread there is talk about adding effects to the tallent's monitor... which means lowlatency effects. I don't do this at this time as I do all monitor mixing analog before the signal gets to the audio interface. The recorded audio from the direct out on the mixer and monitor from the mixed signal. analog items are forgotten. This is a real problem with a two input IF, The trim needs to be set every time and the variety of signals through one channel is huge. Everything from a ribbon to line level. Having a set of good pre amps could be worth while, this is probably the biggest hole in the hobby studio. I have two, tube and solid state. (plus line) It is very simple to keep a few notes on what is a good preamp setting for a given mic and preamp combination. One inconvenience with some budget preamps is that you don't know what sort of gain it is providing, so while you may write down the setting by using a notation like 2:00 for dial position, you haven't learned anything about gain, so if you swap out a preamp you need to guess at where to start. Yes it is simple to keep notes. I would expect it is not a problem for anyone in this list (it is pretty hard to develop sw without some sort of organization skills). I have worked with artists who like to record their work who would find all they could do to make Ardour work, let alone worry about external gear too. So long as they can get audio recorded they are happy, if a backing track sounds bad... lower it in the mix and blame it on the cheap equipment that is the best they can afford. The best situation is if you have converters with analog trims, which is I think what you were saying, and set them accordingly for each preamp. I leave my preamps plugged into a specific A/D channels that have been calibrated for that preamp. That would be the best thing so long as you have the channels and equipment to do so. A lot of people have two channels with a builtin pre a pre that the litterature says is modeled on some super Britsh Console pre that all the hits used, but is in fact just another two pre on a chip deal with a tweak in the freq response to colour it. In general the best thing seems to be a line in (+4 with lots of head room) and a pre matched to the mic. Possibly with some eq. I think a good preamp can make a difference to what needs to be done to fix the sound at mixdown. That is why I said money is often better spent on mics and preamps. One other note, some budget preamps are not qualified for certain levels of input. I have a Presonus Audiobox which can sound fine for an acoustic guitar, but throw a drum at it and it is automatically over full scale and unusable. Someone has suggested the mic should have a pad, but if the impedance of the mic and pre are known, it is not hard to design and build a pad with a bypass switch... in fact two tens in a row would give twenty on need and cost pennys more after you already have the case and connectors. Or, it would be possible to have two pads of different impedance to use with more than one mic. -- Len Ovens
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0700, Len Ovens wrote: true and not. I just upgraded to the i5 because my older P4, while able to record audio, was on the edge of being able to deal with the number of tracks (9 or 10) I was using. Strange. I've been using a P4 systen until a year ago. It had no problems at all with 30 tracks or so, many of them being multichannel. That was with Ardour2. With A3 it failed on memory (512M), not on CPU load. You are right that an i7 won't be better than an i5. My current home system is an i5. It performs better than the i7 in the CdM studio, which is from the same manufacturer and twice the price. Yes it is simple to keep notes. I would expect it is not a problem for anyone in this list (it is pretty hard to develop sw without some sort of organization skills). I have worked with artists who like to record their work who would find all they could do to make Ardour work, let alone worry about external gear too. People should know their limits. And take their time to learn and move those limits. There's always some effort involved in doing that. And if they can't do something right, hire someone who can. That is also an opportunity to learn. So long as they can get audio recorded they are happy, if a backing track sounds bad... lower it in the mix and blame it on the cheap equipment that is the best they can afford. Some (not all) cheap equipment today is better than what most people could dream of 30 years ago. And a lot of great recording was done in those days. That would be the best thing so long as you have the channels and equipment to do so. A lot of people have two channels with a builtin pre a pre that the litterature says is modeled on some super Britsh Console pre that all the hits used, but is in fact just another two pre on a chip deal with a tweak in the freq response to colour it. Now *that* is true. All that 'vintage preamp' stuff is one great hoax. Whatever 'sound' these things have amounts to a bit of EQ. The same is true for tube preamps. Tubes may generate some nice distortion when used in a power amp, more so if you throw in some transformers. But at the millivolt levels you find in a preamp they are as linear as it gets. Someone has suggested the mic should have a pad, but if the impedance of the mic and pre are known, it is not hard to design and build a pad with a bypass switch... in fact two tens in a row would give twenty on need and cost pennys more after you already have the case and connectors. Or, it would be possible to have two pads of different impedance to use with more than one mic. You need pads only for condenser mics. And since they already have a preamp built-in they won't care much about impedance (as long as it's reasonable). Three resistores of 10 cents each will do the trick. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 22:58 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Three resistores of 10 cents each will do the trick. Funny news, here 1/4 W metal does cost less than 0,10 € :), carbon does cost 0,10 € :D. English: http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/ [1] German: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-pads.htm [1] http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-spannungsanpassung.htm [1] http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-spannungsteiler.htm [1] [1] no liability assumed ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 22:58 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Some (not all) cheap equipment today is better than what most people could dream of 30 years ago. And a lot of great recording was done in those days. At least the analog IOs of inexpensive digital effects don't cause that kind of audible noise that even expensive digital effects still caused 25 yeas ago. Some algorithm nowadays are much better, but OTOH handling and reliability for the = 25 years older equipment is much better. Better handling and reliability is more important for a production than getting rid of a little bit of noise. You also could say that some external gear isn't needed anymore, because plugins can do the same. Yes, but it took me more than a hour to find a Linux delay plugin and the setting to get a clean left/right ping pong delay and it wasn't the delay that had a switch that claimed ping pong. If you own gear from 80s as I do, you get what you want in a few seconds. Not only because I know that gear and I don't know the Linux plugins, but also because the handling is much easier. GUIs could be much better than the not that good knob and display usage of vintage digital effects, but often GUI aren't better, usually they are less comfortable. Now *that* is true. All that 'vintage preamp' stuff is one great hoax. Whatever 'sound' these things have amounts to a bit of EQ. The same is true for tube preamps. Tubes may generate some nice distortion when used in a power amp, more so if you throw in some transformers. But at the millivolt levels you find in a preamp they are as linear as it gets. I stay away from tube gear, because I don't have the money and no will to maintain it and some indeed is very bad, but it's not completely a swindle. A friend years ago lent me a Hughes Kettner guitar tube preamp. It was a preamp intended as preamp for a guitar amp, it was not intended as an amp emulation for usage to play guitar connected to the mixing console, but I used it to play guitar without an amp, connected to the mixer. The sound was much better than any amp, speaker, whatever simulation I ever heard. It was a big difference to non-tube gear. No EQ, no Guitarix Co. can compare with the Hughes Kettner tube preamp. Some, especially really old tube preamps sound very good, even for usage with microphones. It might be possible that a discrete analog circuit without tubes could sound that good too, but some preamps are known to be inexpensive and to provide good audio quality. Around 20 years ago inexpensive Art tube preamps even were used by people who had the money for expensive preamps. Some people owned better preamps, but liked the bias of those amps for some tasks and other needed preamps and had no money, they perhaps wanted something that is more linear/neutral, but for the money those Art tube preamps seemingly were better than other preamps. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Sat, 23 Aug 2014, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 02:48:55PM -0700, Len Ovens wrote: true and not. I just upgraded to the i5 because my older P4, while able to record audio, was on the edge of being able to deal with the number of tracks (9 or 10) I was using. Strange. I've been using a P4 systen until a year ago. It had no problems at all with 30 tracks or so, many of them being multichannel. That was with Ardour2. With A3 it failed on memory (512M), not on CPU load. I may have been trying to push the latency too low or I was using the wrong plugins. I was recording the electric guitar direct and using plugins to make it sound amped. Very little on the vocals of anything save an aux out to a single reverb. I can't remember what else now. However, the en/decoding of too many things at the same time was over the top. The best I could get with skype-pulse-jack-idjc-icecast and back along with mp3 files decoding to mix in was over 20ms and still not stable. This is what some people use as a radio studio for internet radio. The i5 I can set -p32 no problem. Lower latency makes it easier for a host to converse with someone on the phone. Skype may not be the best, but lots of people have it... I don't think pulse was resampling, but it may have been from 48k to 48k, the mp3s seem to all be 44.1k but they are decoded straight to jack, so only one resample (as part of the decode?). You are right that an i7 won't be better than an i5. My current home system is an i5. It performs better than the i7 in the CdM studio, which is from the same manufacturer and twice the price. Have you tried turning boost and hyperthreading off in bios? But then the whole chipset may be different too. Yes it is simple to keep notes. I would expect it is not a problem for anyone in this list (it is pretty hard to develop sw without some sort of organization skills). I have worked with artists who like to record their work who would find all they could do to make Ardour work, let alone worry about external gear too. People should know their limits. And take their time to learn and move those limits. There's always some effort involved in doing that. And if they can't do something right, hire someone who can. That is also an opportunity to learn. I agree. So long as they can get audio recorded they are happy, if a backing track sounds bad... lower it in the mix and blame it on the cheap equipment that is the best they can afford. Some (not all) cheap equipment today is better than what most people could dream of 30 years ago. And a lot of great recording was done in those days. Yes, but often people would prefer to blame bad sound from their missuse on equipment than on themselves. Some people choose not to learn. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Ralf, please stop dictating how others should work. I've been recording in studios for 35 years and I like to think I know what I'm doing. Not everyone who has different working methods from yours is an idiot, but that seems to be what you are implying. John ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 01:10:58AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 20:06 +0100, John Rigg wrote: The P+G faders (generally regarded as the best) Actually you get fader units for Studer with PG, but also with Alps faders. Such a module usually costs more than a complete home recording mixer. True, but how much more does it cost to emulate a P+G fader in software compared with the cheaper ones? John ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 08:06:13PM +0100, John Rigg wrote: http://www.pennyandgiles.com/Products/Audio-Faders-Video-Controllers/Linear-Manual-Fader-PGF8000.aspx The Panel Graduations/Slots diagrams on page 3 show the taper characteristic. The taper I'm using in some apps is very similar: http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/faders.png A position vs dB plot of this consists of two parts: the top one (down to -20 dB in this case) is linear, the bottom half is parabolic. The two curves are tangent at the intersection point, so there is no 'jump' in the dB/distance ratio. Mapping functions in both directions are very simple. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:29:30 +0200, John Rigg lad...@jrigg.co.uk wrote: Ralf, please stop dictating how others should work. I've been recording in studios for 35 years and I like to think I know what I'm doing. Not everyone who has different working methods from yours is an idiot, but that seems to be what you are implying. Hi John, you claimed that you know how to record right in the first place, so that you don't need EQs for the mixing, that's why you claimed that EQs by default for each mixer channel could be a nuisance. You might have the gift to know how the frequencies will interact for the mix, already when doing the mix, but that is a very unusual gift. It's common for good audio engineering that EQs and faders are the basic tools for mixing. I confirmed Fons' piece of information that fades are rare when mixing music and the fades you are doing are those rare fades, fates that btw. I'm doing too, at least I do similar fades. The quality of mixes nowadays often suffer from bad engineering, because as Fons' pointed out, people tend to add too much effects to a channel, I added that one reasons is, that using EQs as a basic tool for a transparent mix and to control the dynamic range of a song, nowadays often is replaced by using dynamic effects and much usage of fader automation. I'm not dictating anything, the nature of the interaction of audio signals from several channels, when mixing them to a mono or stereo sum dictates us the way we most of the times should do a mix, to get a transparent acoustic pattern, with an acceptable dynamic range. Dynamic effects, such as a compressor are ok, they are needed, but to use them, EQs are needed too and sometimes EQs can replace usage of a compressor, at least for the individual channels. You get me wrong, I'm not implying idiocy. My intention is to point out, that young people don't have a chance to learn by trail and error, regarding to the odd design of many Linux DAW mixers. Qtractor is one piece of software I very often use. Many young people using Linux are using it too. It's mixer e.g. doesn't provide post fader aux sends for audio, resp. for MIDI the faders are post aux sends, but if you insert an effect, it's also post fader and will add noise, even if you use the channel at a low volume, IOW the odd design of this mixer and some other mixers too, leads to learning how to mix in a wrong way. Learning by trail and error only works, when the mixer has got a sane design, as the mixers had, when you and I learned audio engineering 30 years ago. Regards, Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Fri, 2014-08-22 at 08:41 +0100, John Rigg wrote: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 01:10:58AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 20:06 +0100, John Rigg wrote: The P+G faders (generally regarded as the best) Actually you get fader units for Studer with PG, but also with Alps faders. Such a module usually costs more than a complete home recording mixer. True, but how much more does it cost to emulate a P+G fader in software compared with the cheaper ones? Good point. It still doesn't matter what tapper is used, since both kinds don't cause issues. On Fri, 2014-08-22 at 12:32 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:29:30 +0200, John Rigg lad...@jrigg.co.uk wrote: Ralf, please stop dictating how others should work. I've been recording in studios for 35 years and I like to think I know what I'm doing. Not everyone who has different working methods from yours is an idiot, but that seems to be what you are implying. Hi John, you claimed that you know how to record right in the first place, so that you don't need EQs for the mixing, that's why you claimed that EQs by default for each mixer channel could be a nuisance. You might have the gift to know how the frequencies will interact for the mix, already when doing the mix, but that is a very unusual gift. It's common for good audio ^^^ recordings :D, not mix ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 12:32:19PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: IOW the odd design of this mixer and some other mixers too, leads to learning how to mix in a wrong way. I'd agree with that (while not commenting on the rest). Regarding EQ pre or post 'tape', that is for a part a matter or personal preference, but also related to history. At the start of the multitrack era, many engineers were perfectly capable of mixing the type of music they usually handled 'live'. They didn't need a hundred trials to arrive at a good mix. And with only 16 or 24 tracks available, you often had to pre-mix things before tape. Using EQ at that point was a natural thing to do. The typical structure of the mixers used at the time also plays a role. Desks used for multitrack production were in fact two mixers in one box. In the first generation, you had a 'main' mixer with everything on it, EQ, inserts, large faders, etc. While recording tracks, this was used to mix the signals going to tape, on 16 or 24 mixing busses. A separate 'monitoring' mixer, usually a lot simpler, no EQ or just a very simple one, was used to create a control room monitor mix of the tape signals. Aux busses were shared between the two, so you could create a monitor mix for a musician using both the mic signals and those already on tape. For mixing you would switch the main mixer inputs to the tape outputs and mix them on a stereo bus, again using all facilities provided. These desks tended to be quite large, since the monitor mixer was a separate section, usually to the right of the main one. Using EQ while recording was a natural thing to do when using such a mixer, simply because it was available, and for the reasons already mentioned above. Then came in-line mixers. In-line means that one channel from the main mixer and one from the monitoring one were combined into a single strip. So each strip had two faders, the second normally being a small one. One advantage was much reduced size. At the same time the signal routing was made more flexible, to the point that the two signal paths within a strip could swap roles. In other words, even while recording tracks you could opt to use the 'simple' mixer to do that and the 'main' one for control room monitoring. The result was that at the end of a session you could have the main mixer completely set up for the mix, including post-tape EQ and any effects, without having to change anything. And on some mixers (more as time went on) you could save that setup and recall it later, so this was an interesting way to work. All the large mixers I ever used (Neve, Harrison, SSL) were in-line, and I usually preferred to use them as explained above. It was a personal thing, some other engineers at the place where I worked did the same, and some others never did unless they had to provide a live mix for broadcasting while recording multitrack at the same time. A DAW such as Ardour has remnants of the in-line structure. Logically there are still two signal paths in each track strip. But the 'pre-tape' part, instead of being a mixer, has been reduced to the mininum: no gain controls and fixed one-to-one connections from inputs to tracks. The only thing that remains is that you can measure the input signal, and use it as input to the main path while transport is stopped or the track is recording. With unlimited tracks available, this makes sense of course, though it encourages postponing everything to the mixing stage. I'm not convinced that is always a good idea, you can easily end up with 'too much to handle' there. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Fri, 2014-08-22 at 12:05 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 12:32:19PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: IOW the odd design of this mixer and some other mixers too, leads to learning how to mix in a wrong way. I'd agree with that (while not commenting on the rest). But you commented a little bit of the rest ;). Indeed I'm mistaken, because I did not think about the situation, when it's possible to mix all instruments, before recording them ... In other words, even while recording tracks you could opt to use the 'simple' mixer to do that and the 'main' one for control room monitoring. The result was that at the end of a session you could have the main mixer completely set up for the mix, including post-tape EQ and any effects, without having to change anything. ... assumed a band plays all instruments at the same time, it's possible to set up the EQs in the first place. There isn't the need to record all instruments at the same time, but for the pre record mix, they need to play all together, before the recording starts. I only had a situation in mind, when there aren't enough people to play all instruments at the same time, IOW if one person or a few persons play and record the instruments one after the other, then the mix only can be done after recording. Anyway, I was mistaken, there is a situation when it's possible to mix before recording. However, the band in the box approach does mean that you need to have EQs, pre or post recording, nearly no good mix can be done without EQs. IMO your parametric EQ should be included by default. If the EQ isn't needed, than it usually shouldn't be an issue, if it's nevertheless included. I doubt that the EQ is too resource hungry for a production environment. It's not only an issue that IMO EQs are missing, so some people tend not to use EQs, when they should be used. It's not easy to find a usable EQ for mixer channels. A user needs to test several EQs or ask at a mailing list/forum. I would recommend to stay away from some Linux EQs, but I've learned, it's better not to mention which ones. Is it really better to keep quiet ;)? 2 Cents, Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Fri, 2014-08-22 at 12:05 +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: With unlimited tracks available, this makes sense of course, though it encourages postponing everything to the mixing stage. I'm not convinced that is always a good idea, you can easily end up with 'too much to handle' there. PS: I'm especially thinking about the band in the box approach, For synth plugins I mix already before recording and for sure, others who record a band could use EQs before the recording too. At what time you need the EQs doesn't matter, you need EQs for mixing music. Is there really the need to include EQs only when they are needed and to exclude them, when they aren't used? What exactly is the nuisance, if EQs are always included/available, even when they aren't needed? Horsepower of the computer? From cheap to expensive analog mixers, all provide EQs, you can't get rid of them, when you don't need them. There is no reason to get rid of them. Horsepower of a DAW computer vs searching for a good working EQ, learn that EQs usually are needed etc. ... to make EQs optional comes with more drawbacks than advantages. There's nothing wrong with learning by trail and error, but newbies don't become a chance to do this, when the mixer design isn't good, when even basic tools aren't defaults. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Fri, 2014-08-22 at 15:33 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: but newbies don't become a chance to do this ^^ get :D, bekommen/erhalten ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014, Fons Adriaensen wrote: A DAW such as Ardour has remnants of the in-line structure. Logically there are still two signal paths in each track strip. But the 'pre-tape' part, instead of being a mixer, has been reduced to the mininum: no gain controls and fixed one-to-one connections from inputs to tracks. The only thing that remains is that you can measure the input signal, and use it as input to the main path while transport is stopped or the track is Partly also for historical reasons, I think. In many ways digital recording started as the poor man's tape. Direct to disk recording with no effects was at first all that could be handled and most peole using it were replacing 8 track tape with it. They already had a mixer. As the DAW developed, mix down on the computer has been next. But for many people the recording part of the strip has been outside of the DAW, on an analog mixer. This is changing as a new batch of people are going mic- interface. Their input strip is whatever the interface provides... often only trim (either as a pot on the pre or in ALSA). So digital recording is also going through a two mixer to inline transition. From hybrid to digital only. The trim controls are there, where they should be, as close to incoming signal as possible. I don't suppose it would be too hard to add alsa trim for a card like the d1010 to ardour, but many USB IFs (even PCIe) have no controls in alsa. It is a physical pot somewhere. So rather than being in front of the engineer, it is hidden and easily missed by the newby... or even not so new. So much is done digitally, that the remaining analog items are forgotten. This is a real problem with a two input IF, The trim needs to be set every time and the variety of signals through one channel is huge. Everything from a ribbon to line level. Having a set of good pre amps could be worth while, this is probably the biggest hole in the hobby studio. I have two, tube and solid state. (plus line) recording. With unlimited tracks available, this makes sense unlimited? CPU speed does that even if sw doesn't. As in days of old, buget determines tracks and effects available, though the price per track has dropped dramatically. Mixbus (Ardour with input strips) is known as cpu heavy, because of where the average home/small studio budget is. I have a 4 core i5... about $500. The next step up is a xeon 8 core... two of them on the same board with separate memory. multi hard drives 6x the cost pretty easy, but not bad in a paying studio. The reality is, a better interface comes first... and mics... the dual xeon starts to look cheap by comparison. of course, though it encourages postponing everything to the mixing stage. I'm not convinced that is always a good idea, you can easily end up with 'too much to handle' there. grouping and subs. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 12:39:05PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: IMO each channel by default should provide your (Fons') parametric EQ and post fader aux sends. Those who usually try to record the right sound in the first place might find this a nuisance. Unfortunately one size doesn't fit all. If people start mixer automation for the fist time, a notification should pop up and mention, that: Fades are rare in music mixing Some might find that patronising. I personally mix a lot of recordings with fade outs, even if it's just to fade the end of the last note or a long reverb tail. Regarding fader mappings, faders on analogue mixers vary a lot in their characteristics. Control panel markings are rarely accurate and don't necessarily provide a reliable basis for software emulation (unlike actual measurements). The '70s Neve mentioned earlier would likely have used Penny Giles faders with a roughly logarithmic taper (no VCAs). Since this type of fader is made by varying the characteristics of the resistive track along its length it's very tricky to achieve consistency. A logarithmic fader is unlikely to match one from a different manufacturer, which makes replacement difficult if the original type is obsolete - often all the channel faders need to be replaced at once if this is the case. One thing most analogue faders do have is better resolution than a 128 step midi controller, so slow fades without audible steps are easier to achieve. John ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, Ralf Mardorf wrote: PS: It's not completely OT ;), even a remote control for a virtual mixer is used in the same way as old analog gear. For radio the fade ins and outs could be done by each kind of sane taper/mapping. Fons already pointed out, it's like driving different cars. Not OT at all. It is all related to a real piece of sw in Linux for Audio. I am getting real help in designing a part of my SW. (and HW, but the two are so interrelated they can't be separated)) -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, John Rigg wrote: On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 12:39:05PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: IMO each channel by default should provide your (Fons') parametric EQ and post fader aux sends. Those who usually try to record the right sound in the first place might find this a nuisance. Unfortunately one size doesn't fit all. Not having anyting other than level certainly ecourages one to record the right sound. It has with me. The '70s Neve mentioned earlier would likely have used Penny Giles faders with a roughly logarithmic taper (no VCAs). Since this type of fader is made Ok, I have to ask this somewhere, it may as well be here :) Which log? I would think .5 db for the same amount of movement the entire fader length would be logarithmic (log 10). A linear fader would be +6 at top, 0 in the middle and infinite at the bottom (assuming a 0 to 2 range as Ardour uses). The standard fader seems to be half way in the middle... logarithmic with a linear component. It is easy to see why we do not use linear, and a log 10 would never get to ininity, it would need a special step at -100 or so to jump there. In fact a log pot would have to have an extra resistor at the bottom to keep it from ever turning completely off. The audio taper seems to be made to give good mixing resolution in the mixing range while still fading to 0 during a fade. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
Len Ovens wrote: On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, John Rigg wrote: ... faders with a roughly logarithmic taper (no VCAs). Which log? I would think .5 db for the same amount of movement the entire fader length would be logarithmic (log 10). For a fader from -INF to zero, alsamixer uses dB = 6000 * log10(pos), where pos is 0...1: http://git.alsa-project.org/?p=alsa-utils.git;a=blob;hb=HEAD;f=alsamixer/volume_mapping.c Regards, Clemens ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 09:01:03AM -0700, Len Ovens wrote: On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, John Rigg wrote: The '70s Neve mentioned earlier would likely have used Penny Giles faders with a roughly logarithmic taper (no VCAs). Since this type of fader is made Ok, I have to ask this somewhere, it may as well be here :) Which log? The P+G faders (generally regarded as the best) are close to log10 characteristic, ie. -20dB at about half travel. There's a PDF data sheet here: http://www.pennyandgiles.com/Products/Audio-Faders-Video-Controllers/Linear-Manual-Fader-PGF8000.aspx The Panel Graduations/Slots diagrams on page 3 show the taper characteristic. John ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 15:50 +0100, John Rigg wrote: On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 12:39:05PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: IMO each channel by default should provide your (Fons') parametric EQ and post fader aux sends. Those who usually try to record the right sound in the first place might find this a nuisance. Unfortunately one size doesn't fit all. An EQ and a fader for each channel is a must have and never ever could be a nuisance. Control over volume and frequencies are needed tools for mixing music. There is nothing like recording the right sound in the first place regarding the mix of several tracks. Controlling frequencies can be used to get the right sound for an individual instrument and yes, you can record it that way in the first place and then you don't need the EQ for this task, but when mixing music the EQ is needed to control interaction of the sound from different tracks, too keep the sound you recorded right in the first place. Nowadays many people use compressors to do the work that actually is a task of an EQ and not the ask of a compressor. A transparent acoustic pattern and control over dynamic range by a good engineer mainly is done using EQs and faders and not by using compressors and fade ins and outs. If people start mixer automation for the fist time, a notification should pop up and mention, that: Fades are rare in music mixing Some might find that patronising. I personally mix a lot of recordings with fade outs, even if it's just to fade the end of the last note or a long reverb tail. Fading out a reverb is disgusting, anyway, I'm mixing pop music myself, somebody perhaps sings ten words and you want a delay just on one of the words, this kind of mixing is done and some people might like fading out a reverb or to add reverb to the end of a guitar solo ... the claim is that fates are _rare_ and to add delay or reverb by a fade or to fade out reverb or to fade out a song and sometimes to adjust the volume is done, but it's rare and not that often as fades are done by amateurish computer music engineers using mixer automation. Another problem of bad mixing are dynamic effects for each track and different sorts of delay for each track. This usually isn't done with knowhow, it's usually done because of a lack of knowhow. On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 08:30 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: Good I must be doing things right. The only fades I have used are fade out at end of song and I have drawn that in. Often, to make it sound right, I have to fade the lead (louder) tracks faster than the backing tracks anyway. Pop music usually ends as classical music ends, with a composed end, only the around 3 minute radio versions need a fade out. Bad composers already make this part of their compositions, they don't compose an end, they repeat something and make the fade out part of their composition, usually the same kind of composer who don't shy away from repeating the first half of their song by transposing it two half steps for the second part of the song. There are different levels of simple pop music. I love simple pop music without too much cheap tricks. But within the last decades cheap tricks became more and more the business. However, a fade out for the radio version is ok, lead and backing usually are on separated subgroups, another feature that also a virtual mixer should provide by default, needed for the fade out you described and for the post fader aux sends I mentioned. The design of virtual mixers shouldn't be that modular as they are. Some people might not need this or that, but to learn how to mix and to decide when something is needed or when not, there's the need to have a good default mixer. Some people, including myself have the knowhow and could use a modular mixer, but it does cause extra work or at least a template. Certainly adding individual reverb per track does not make sense as having the whole band in one sound space would be the normal target. There are exceptions, such as gated drums, but indeed, it's good common practise to use one reverb. _But_ the reverb is not simply given to the clean stereo sum, it's controlled for each channel individually, that#s a good reason for using aux sends. The pad string like sound needs another volume of reverb, than the dominant pop music kick does need. On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 09:01 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: Not having anyting other than level certainly ecourages one to record the right sound. It has with me. You only can estimate what sound is needed for the end mix when you're much experienced and even then it can't be optimal. Faders and EQs are basics for doing a good mix. To act from necessity is ok, but stupid when good EQs are available for the mix. I will repeat it. The EQs for _mixing_ are less needed to give the recorded instrument a sound characteristic, this can be done for the recording. For _mixing_ the EQ is needed to _keep_ this recorded characteristic when mixing with other recorded
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, John Rigg wrote: On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 09:01:03AM -0700, Len Ovens wrote: On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, John Rigg wrote: The '70s Neve mentioned earlier would likely have used Penny Giles faders with a roughly logarithmic taper (no VCAs). Since this type of fader is made Ok, I have to ask this somewhere, it may as well be here :) Which log? The P+G faders (generally regarded as the best) are close to log10 characteristic, ie. -20dB at about half travel. There's a PDF data sheet here: http://www.pennyandgiles.com/Products/Audio-Faders-Video-Controllers/Linear-Manual-Fader-PGF8000.aspx The Panel Graduations/Slots diagrams on page 3 show the taper characteristic. Interesting. Out of that I get what looks like two log areas and a third area that biases towards linear: 0 - -10 = 23.12 -10 - -20 = 25.2 -20 - -30 = 12.8 -30 - -40 = 11.8 -40 - -50 = 12 -50 - -60 = 5.5 -60 - -70 = 3.1 -70 - inf = 6.1 So 0 to -20db is log (about 12mm / 5db) -20 to - 50db is log (about 12mm / 10db) -50 to inf is what looks like a straight line from -50 to ground/inf So while the first two sections are log, they are not the same scale of log. It is like the top half of the fader is from a fader that would be from 0 to -40db. The next half is from a 50mm fader that is 0 to -40db but the last 10 or 12db are linearish from that point to the bottom. The fact that there are some places that look smaller than they should be (-30 to -40... or maybe -40 to -50 is too big?) is to allow smooth transitions from one part of the taper to the next. Fantastic engineering making the most of the length for usability. I expect this layout came from the days when a fader was made out of individual pads and a big switch. The pads were 2db apart or so. The one I saw was rotary. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 23:20 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 15:50 +0100, John Rigg wrote: On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 12:39:05PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: IMO each channel by default should provide your (Fons') parametric EQ and post fader aux sends. Those who usually try to record the right sound in the first place might find this a nuisance. Unfortunately one size doesn't fit all. An EQ and a fader for each channel is a must have and never ever could be a nuisance. Control over volume and frequencies are needed tools for mixing music. There is nothing like recording the right sound in the first place regarding the mix of several tracks. Controlling frequencies can be used to get the right sound for an individual instrument and yes, you can record it that way in the first place and then you don't need the EQ for this task, but when mixing music the EQ is needed to control interaction of the sound from different tracks, too keep the sound you recorded right in the first place. Nowadays many people use compressors to do the work that actually is a task of an EQ and not the ask of a compressor. A transparent acoustic pattern and control over dynamic range by a good engineer mainly is done using EQs and faders and not by using compressors and fade ins and outs. If people start mixer automation for the fist time, a notification should pop up and mention, that: Fades are rare in music mixing Some might find that patronising. I personally mix a lot of recordings with fade outs, even if it's just to fade the end of the last note or a long reverb tail. Fading out a reverb is disgusting, anyway, I'm mixing pop music myself, somebody perhaps sings ten words and you want a delay just on one of the words, this kind of mixing is done and some people might like fading out a reverb or to add reverb to the end of a guitar solo ... the claim is that fates are _rare_ and to add delay or reverb by a fade or to fade out reverb or to fade out a song and sometimes to adjust the volume is done, but it's rare and not that often as fades are done by amateurish computer music engineers using mixer automation. Another problem of bad mixing are dynamic effects for each track and different sorts of delay for each track. This usually isn't done with ^ reverb, this should be reverb and not dely :D knowhow, it's usually done because of a lack of knowhow. On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 08:30 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: Good I must be doing things right. The only fades I have used are fade out at end of song and I have drawn that in. Often, to make it sound right, I have to fade the lead (louder) tracks faster than the backing tracks anyway. Pop music usually ends as classical music ends, with a composed end, only the around 3 minute radio versions need a fade out. Bad composers already make this part of their compositions, they don't compose an end, they repeat something and make the fade out part of their composition, usually the same kind of composer who don't shy away from repeating the first half of their song by transposing it two half steps for the second part of the song. There are different levels of simple pop music. I love simple pop music without too much cheap tricks. But within the last decades cheap tricks became more and more the business. However, a fade out for the radio version is ok, lead and backing usually are on separated subgroups, another feature that also a virtual mixer should provide by default, needed for the fade out you described and for the post fader aux sends I mentioned. The design of virtual mixers shouldn't be that modular as they are. Some people might not need this or that, but to learn how to mix and to decide when something is needed or when not, there's the need to have a good default mixer. Some people, including myself have the knowhow and could use a modular mixer, but it does cause extra work or at least a template. Certainly adding individual reverb per track does not make sense as having the whole band in one sound space would be the normal target. There are exceptions, such as gated drums, but indeed, it's good common practise to use one reverb. _But_ the reverb is not simply given to the clean stereo sum, it's controlled for each channel individually, that#s a good reason for using aux sends. The pad string like sound needs another volume of reverb, than the dominant pop music kick does need. On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 09:01 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: Not having anyting other than level certainly ecourages one to record the right sound. It has with me. You only can estimate what sound is needed for the end mix when you're much experienced and even then it can't be optimal. Faders and EQs are basics for doing a good mix. To act from necessity is ok, but stupid when good EQs are available for the mix. I will repeat it. The EQs for
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Thu, 2014-08-21 at 20:06 +0100, John Rigg wrote: The P+G faders (generally regarded as the best) Actually you get fader units for Studer with PG, but also with Alps faders. Such a module usually costs more than a complete home recording mixer. Small semi-pro studios more often use something like a Soundcraft Delta with Alps faders. The long and the short of it, more people, in particular the amateurs and semi-pros tend to use gear with Alps faders. P+G are three times more expensive than Alps. Alps audio taper is very good. The only bad Alps faders I ever used (and still use) are seemingly substandard goods used by a Behringer mixer, this mixer cost around the price some Studer fader units do cost, but even those bad Alps faders just feel not good when fading, the Audio taper is ok. IOW regarding to the taper it doesn't matter if you're using PG or Alps. All those faders use a similar kind of log. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
