Re: Browsers, compatility, and price
Why? Because browsers implement standards poorly. Because some browsers (Kon* Op*) don't really care about standards. They're bound to forever invest time in chancing undocumented stanadards. Let me say that we (the konqueror developers) do care! How come you assume we don't? Yes, we implement some IE extenstions. So? Mozilla does the same. They did for example add foo.innerHtml in Javascript which is a non standard extension first introduced by IE. If you today build a browser that is build 100% onstandards it's completely unusable in the real world as it would render less than a percent of the web pages correctly. Also mozilla has hundreds (maybe thousands) of cludges in the code for real world HTML. Thats why it works on most web pages. We chose to go a little bit further and implement a little more than IE, namely the ones we thought make sense and would help getting things compatible. There are however limits as to how far we go. If we eg. have the choice to be either IE or standards compatible, we choose the standard. Konqueror does eg. implement the full DOM2 Javascript bindings (and we pass the DOM 2 test suite with about 2-4 errors, actually less than mozilla). CSS2.1 support is fastly getting better (we've for example rewritten the parser lately to be 100% standards compliant, etc...) Cheers, Lars = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Browsers, compatility, and price
I would like to say a few words about $SUBJECT.. As you know, in many companies (be it Egged, government offices, etc) they place a bid for a 3rd party company to build them a site according to specs given by the company. As my previous boss in Tehila told me: Hetz, there are 2 ways to choose from: 1. A repsectable company who will build the site with PHP, MySQL and will fully check that their web site will work on various browsers - those companies ask for X*2 price 2. A small company who will build the site on IIS, with ASP and will only check it against latest version of Explorer - they will ask for X price.. Guess who wins the bid? There are also 2 ways of browsers: 1. Konqueror, Opera - these browser do whatever they can to support what Opera's CEO calls streets HTML - which means either non standard HTML or buggy behaviors - both browsers support those kind of HTML in addition to the W3C standards - that way you can browse many problematic sites. 2. Mozilla and browsers based on Gecko - those browsers stick to the W3C standard, so when you approach a site which doesn't support the standard well enough - you'll get either bad rendering or you won't be able to use the sites. Financially speaking - writing a web site and maintaining it work with the latest variant browsers is a PITA. You got tons of quirks to do in order to make the site look good on MSIE and Mozilla, and that part alone sometimes costs more then maintaining 1 browsers - and companies don't want to pay for it - they are fine with Explorer... Just for a kick - try to take the google web site and pass it through the W3C validator. It fails. Many people have asked Google about it and they simply refuse to make it fully W3C compatible. Do you want to boycott Google? good luck, I won't be one of the participants... So yes, you can complain to the webmasters of those web sites (start with Egged, Bank Discount, Globes, Ynet, etc) - see how much they are willing to make their web site work in Mozilla - not much, although THERE IS hope - look at the Visa CAL case for example. Thanks, Hetz = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Browsers, compatility, and price
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: I would like to say a few words about $SUBJECT.. As you know, in many companies (be it Egged, government offices, etc) they place a bid for a 3rd party company to build them a site according to specs given by the company. As my previous boss in Tehila told me: Hetz, there are 2 ways to choose from: 1. A repsectable company who will build the site with PHP, MySQL and will fully check that their web site will work on various browsers - those companies ask for X*2 price 2. A small company who will build the site on IIS, with ASP and will only check it against latest version of Explorer - they will ask for X price.. Guess who wins the bid? Company X made a good investment. THey know that they'll be called again next year to fix the site when version X+1 of Explorer will be out and the site will break. There are also 2 ways of browsers: 1. Konqueror, Opera - these browser do whatever they can to support what Opera's CEO calls streets HTML - which means either non standard HTML or buggy behaviors - both browsers support those kind of HTML in addition to the W3C standards - that way you can browse many problematic sites. 2. Mozilla and browsers based on Gecko - those browsers stick to the W3C standard, so when you approach a site which doesn't support the standard well enough - you'll get either bad rendering or you won't be able to use the sites. Financially speaking - writing a web site and maintaining it work with the latest variant browsers is a PITA. You got tons of quirks to do in order to make the site look good on MSIE and Mozilla, and that part alone sometimes costs more then maintaining 1 browsers - and companies don't want to pay for it - they are fine with Explorer... Why? Because browsers implement standards poorly. Because some browsers (Kon* Op*) don't really care about standards. They're bound to forever invest time in chancing undocumented stanadards. Just for a kick - try to take the google web site and pass it through the W3C validator. It fails. Many people have asked Google about it and they simply refuse to make it fully W3C compatible. Do you want to boycott Google? good luck, I won't be one of the participants... However, it is usable with a large veraity of user agents (not only graphical agents with resolution of 800x600 and above). And google probably activly test this. Other site builders probably don't have the resources to test their site with all the of those browsers. Writing the site according to the standards is one of the simplest testing form. So yes, you can complain to the webmasters of those web sites (start with Egged, Bank Discount, Globes, Ynet, etc) - see how much they are willing to make their web site work in Mozilla - not much, although THERE IS hope - look at the Visa CAL case for example. As for Egged: I really don't care now, because I have a better and faster alternative. Now an interesting this will be to try to give this alternative a higher google value than egged.co.il (because this is what I personally need from egged) -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Browsers, compatility, and price
On 2003-03-04, Nadav Har'El wrote: What happens if you take the cheaper company and tell them don't do me any favors - don't write javascript, don't write any flash animations. I want every link in the page to be an HTML A HREF= What do you think will happen? They'll increase their price? I seriously doubt that. Their work will actually become easier! Good point. OTOH, perhaps their work will become much harder as they will have to learn HTML better, instead on relying on some program that generates javascript when they tell it they want a menu... In fact, it takes a lot of effort to make it NOT WORK. I still can't believe some people (like the boss you described) don't get it... The problem lies in the tool makers and those who taught the workers of the cheap companies - they didn't get and now making it NOT WORK is almost as easy :-). Note that sites like Egged's or Bank Leumi are meant to be used, not admired (unlike, for example, a site advertising some movie which you are supposed to go out and see in the cinema), so if the people in charge there asked for cute features like sophisticated Javascripts - they completely didn't understand the job they were asked to do. Heartily agreed. -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm too lazy to use GUI - why should I click all these things to get my job done? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Browsers, compatility, and price
NH I want every link in the page to be an HTML A HREF= What do you NH think will happen? They'll increase their price? I seriously doubt that. NH Their work will actually become easier! No, but it'd have to become cheaper! You can't anymore charge for sophisticated link direction system, only for plain HTML. And HTML is cheap and not a buzzword anymore. That's why flash front pages are so popular - you can charge for flash much more than for simple pictures with HTML links! NH are supposed to go out and see in the cinema), so if the people NH in charge there asked for cute features like sophisticated NH Javascripts - they completely didn't understand the job they NH were asked to do. Here you got to the root of the problem on the Israeli web design market. When the person responicble for the design of the major government or financial organisation says you the site is dull and suggests to add more colors and a couple of animations - all you can do is either go work in other business or think I'm going to have so much bad carma that I would be lucky to be a worm in the next life and go and do it and to hell with all freaks that would not like it. They don't pay your bills - the bored site manager does. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-50-624945/\ JRRT LotR. whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Browsers, compatility, and price
At 22:19 +0200 on 4/3/2003, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: Here you got to the root of the problem on the Israeli web design market. When the person responicble for the design of the major government or financial organisation says you the site is dull and suggests to add more colors and a couple of animations - all you can do is either go work in other business or think I'm going to have so much bad carma that I would be lucky to be a worm in the next life and go and do it and to hell with all freaks that would not like it. They don't pay your bills - the bored site manager does. Amen to that. I felt exactly like that last time I had to add a no right click javascript to our web site... Ugh, ugh, ugh. I sit and write beautiful PHP scripts with only the bear essentials in Javascript (actually, everything I write myself works even if you have Javascript turned off), and then comes our HTML designer, sticks a lot of Ugly pop-up windows, banner changers and stuff over it, and when he can't find the right instant script on the web, the CEO gets me to do it. Despite my loud pleas. Bad Karma. Moral of the story: managerial types like gadgets. That's why they have cellphones which sing, dance and take (crappy) photographs, while we use the same old strictly-talk-and-sms blobs until they break. That's why PowerPoint was invented (I can't think of a presentation which would require more than some text and a few illustrations, why on Earth should the next slide morph in and the lines of text fall from the sky into the frame? And it's not Microsoft's fault. These things existed in HyperCard 12 years ago). Managers want to have things that play in the background, a different navigation system on every page (And Flash is there for them always), and so on, 'cause it's cool and shows that we're really technologically advanced. Do you have a Yes TV box? Try switching to Music Select. Almost a third of the screen is wasted on fluff. There are actual pictures of faces which change as you go from menu to menu. This in an interactive application with much less screen real-estate than we are used to in web design. Somebody made that decision, it's not accidental. It's not some kid adding fluff and then the customers dumbly accepting it. It's the other way around - the managers saw the nice, working prototype. Oh yes, this is great! they said. Now just add some animation there. And colors. Preferably Acid Green and Lime. We need to help managers focus on usability, by convincing them that it will work for them, too (Less need to upgrade! And all those additional customers who can use your site! And less technical support calls!). For some (like the CEO from above) it's hopeless. Herouth -- EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HOME PAGE: http://herouth.port5.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Browsers, compatility, and price
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Alon Altman wrote: You can do this easily with some spare change, by buying a Google adword for Egged and/or the hebrew equivalent. Anyone has a Goolge AdWords account? It's only about $0.05 per day for an adword on Hebrew egged. Please email me in private. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- The difference between legal separation and divorce is that legal separation gives the man time to hide his money. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
