Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
On 26 April 2010 09:46, Amos Shapira amos.shap...@gmail.com wrote: I'd appreciate to see a summary of the meeting and if there are any follow-up actions here or maybe one of the foss web sites. (I might have joined you on-line but it'll happen in my middle of the night of a work day). Hi Amos, this is what happened: 1) We discussed some Israeli websites, notably Ben Gurion airport, and had written to their administrations. 2) We formed a group to write to these websites regularly, every week different people write to different sites. There was an announcement on the Linux-il list. If you would like to participate then please contact me either here, on that thread, in private mail, or by phone (054-7881700). 3) We realized that we need more than 6 people to show up for meetings! -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
I'd appreciate to see a summary of the meeting and if there are any follow-up actions here or maybe one of the foss web sites. (I might have joined you on-line but it'll happen in my middle of the night of a work day). Cheers, Amos On 4/25/10, Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: I wish that I had seen this message sooner. I have been contacting sites about this issue for years. I hope to be there at 18:30, there is a lot that we as a group can do together to convince these sites to change. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
And another tool for the evening - browsershots.com might help getting screenshots of the web sites on various browser/os combinations. -Amos On 4/26/10, Amos Shapira amos.shap...@gmail.com wrote: I'd appreciate to see a summary of the meeting and if there are any follow-up actions here or maybe one of the foss web sites. (I might have joined you on-line but it'll happen in my middle of the night of a work day). Cheers, Amos On 4/25/10, Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: I wish that I had seen this message sooner. I have been contacting sites about this issue for years. I hope to be there at 18:30, there is a lot that we as a group can do together to convince these sites to change. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
Hi Everybody, To allow more people to join the rant workshop (even those who cannot come to the meeting physically), we shall broadcast the list of websites we're approaching using three means: 1. www.haifux.org/233/website.txt (which will be updated whenever we move to a new website - do not forget to refresh the page, not from cache!). 2. the haifux' group at linkedin (where we will post the website we are dealing with) 3. for those of you who will google-talk me. You are more than welcome to join us in this quest. If you would like to have other means of communicating the current target, please let me know by private email. Best regards and see you later, Orr. On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Amos Shapira amos.shap...@gmail.com wrote: -- Orr Dunkelman, orr.dunkel...@gmail.com GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to o...@vipe.technion.ac.il) ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
If you would like to have other means of communicating the current target, please let me know by private email. Orr, we should _not_ all write to the websites at once! It will be obvious that a small group of zealots is targeting them. Rather, it should appear to the sites that there are genuine problems that regularly affect everyday users. We should coordinate so that each site gets a letter from a different user every week, and don't even mention the browser or OS in the initial contact letter. I will gladly volunteer to coordinate this: interested users should register with me, and once a week (not always on the same weekday) I will send to them the address of a site to write to. That will ensure a steady flow of non-related complaints: a tactic that is much more effective than 5 complains all at once. I presented this idea before, and advocates such as Shlomi Fish from Linux-IL showed interest. I will organize everything now, and come to the meeting prepared. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
Dotan hi, Even though we haven't tried as a community to approach such webmasters on a regular basis, history shows that people approached webmasters as individuals, and usually it did not succeed. Maybe trying as a group would have a better effect. Now, approaching several websites at the same time should be OK, as usually they do not correlate and share information about: hey XXX YYY ZZZ WWW all sent me complaints about W3C compliance Moreover, history shows that long term coordinated events are harder to pull over one time energy spike. Cheers, Orr. On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: If you would like to have other means of communicating the current target, please let me know by private email. Orr, we should _not_ all write to the websites at once! It will be obvious that a small group of zealots is targeting them. Rather, it should appear to the sites that there are genuine problems that regularly affect everyday users. We should coordinate so that each site gets a letter from a different user every week, and don't even mention the browser or OS in the initial contact letter. I will gladly volunteer to coordinate this: interested users should register with me, and once a week (not always on the same weekday) I will send to them the address of a site to write to. That will ensure a steady flow of non-related complaints: a tactic that is much more effective than 5 complains all at once. I presented this idea before, and advocates such as Shlomi Fish from Linux-IL showed interest. I will organize everything now, and come to the meeting prepared. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- Orr Dunkelman, orr.dunkel...@gmail.com GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to o...@vipe.technion.ac.il) ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
Even though we haven't tried as a community to approach such webmasters on a regular basis, history shows that people approached webmasters as individuals, and usually it did not succeed. Maybe trying as a group would have a better effect. I disagree. I have contacted tens of sites, and in most cases found that the sites want to accompany the users. In fact, only Israeli sites seem to have the my way or the highway attitude, and even that has changed since IE 7 came out. We'll talk about that at the meeting. Now, approaching several websites at the same time should be OK, as usually they do not correlate and share information about: hey XXX YYY ZZZ WWW all sent me complaints about W3C compliance Moreover, history shows that long term coordinated events are harder to pull over one time energy spike. A one-time event of ten emails is less effective than a one-time event of a single email. A one-time event of a single email means a lost purchase. A one-time event of ten emails means some zealots are being shmucks. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
On Fri, Apr 23, 2010, Oron Peled wrote about Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop: E.g: the COO may get really pissed off to find that with all the money thrown at the company website, the result cause ~20% of potential visitor to stay out. But can you honestly tell him that? The sad truth is so many Israeli sites don't work properly in Firefox, that many people have become used to working with two browsers: Normally they use Firefox, or their iPhone, or whatever, but when they want to user their bank's site and it doesn't work, they go to their Windows computer, and run IE specifically for that. Since 99% of the users (not 80%) have Windows and IE, only 1%, not 20%, are shut out. The other 19% may be slightly annoyed, but not much more. Your argument might better apply to sites whose business case especially depends on non-IE browsers - e.g., sites intended for mobile users who use iPhone or android or opera or whatever, not IE. But I assume that these sort of sites already check that they work on their intended client machines... -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Apr 25 2010, 11 Iyyar 5770 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Bank, n: a place that will lend you money http://nadav.harel.org.il |if you can prove that you don't need it. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Nadav Har'El n...@math.technion.ac.ilwrote: On Fri, Apr 23, 2010, Oron Peled wrote about Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop: E.g: the COO may get really pissed off to find that with all the money thrown at the company website, the result cause ~20% of potential visitor to stay out. But can you honestly tell him that? The sad truth is so many Israeli sites don't work properly in Firefox, that many people have become used to working with two browsers: Normally they use Firefox, or their iPhone, or whatever, but when they want to user their bank's site and it doesn't work, they go to their Windows computer, and run IE specifically for that. Since 99% of the users (not 80%) have Windows and IE, only 1%, not 20%, are shut out. The other 19% may be slightly annoyed, but not much more. Your argument might better apply to sites whose business case especially depends on non-IE browsers - e.g., sites intended for mobile users who use iPhone or android or opera or whatever, not IE. But I assume that these sort of sites already check that they work on their intended client machines... There is another market share, the fast trend adopting - If few years ago it was 15-25 % geeks, today it is students/Women (lost the research)/High Tech/Buzz people : Just take a look on the IPhone owners / netbook owners, do you really wish to loose around 40% of your potential market share ?! -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Apr 25 2010, 11 Iyyar 5770 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Bank, n: a place that will lend you money http://nadav.harel.org.il |if you can prove that you don't need it. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- -- -- Boris Shtrasman |Gnu/Linux Software developer | | IM : bori...@jabber.org | | URL : myrtfm.blogspot.com| ___ ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
Nadav Har'El wrote: On Fri, Apr 23, 2010, Oron Peled wrote about Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop: E.g: the COO may get really pissed off to find that with all the money thrown at the company website, the result cause ~20% of potential visitor to stay out. But can you honestly tell him that? The sad truth is so many Israeli sites don't work properly in Firefox, that many people have become used to working with two browsers: Normally they use Firefox, or their iPhone, or whatever, but when they want to user their bank's site and it doesn't work, they go to their Windows computer, and run IE specifically for that. Since 99% of the users (not 80%) have Windows and IE, only 1%, not 20%, are shut out. The other 19% may be slightly annoyed, but not much more. this may be true for monopolistic sites that have no alternative (e.g. government sites, possibly your bank's site, etc.). for sites that have competition, users with firefox will likely go to whichever of them that has firefox support. --guy ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 11:20:39AM +0300, guy keren wrote: this may be true for monopolistic sites that have no alternative (e.g. government sites, possibly your bank's site, etc.). for sites that have competition, users with firefox will likely go to whichever of them that has firefox support. A web site is also often used to save costs of providing service. If you're forced to call them due to the broken web site, do mention that. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
I wish that I had seen this message sooner. I have been contacting sites about this issue for years. I hope to be there at 18:30, there is a lot that we as a group can do together to convince these sites to change. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX Workshop] The Web Rant Workshop
On Thursday, 22 בApril 2010 10:47:42 Orr Dunkelman wrote: Dear all, Next Monday, 26.4.10, at 18:30 we are going to have a rant workshop Great event! where we will try to contact as many webmasters as possible and try to convince them to offer a better support for FOSS browsers. It would be even more effective if people can get contact details of higher ranked officials (those that pays for the construction and maintenance of the website). E.g: the COO may get really pissed off to find that with all the money thrown at the company website, the result cause ~20% of potential visitor to stay out. To hold this event, we need one or two wireless access points (we shall offer wireless connection so people could send emails). If you have one that you can bring (including soft AP), please let me know. I have a (rarely used) wireless access point (not a router, only a single ethernet port). Since I am not sure I would be able to attend, someone may coordinate with me privately to pick it up beforehand (e.g: Sat or Sun -- I live ~150m from the Technion main gate). -- Oron Peled Voice: +972-4-8228492 o...@actcom.co.il http://users.actcom.co.il/~oron We continue to live in a world where all our know-how is locked into binary files in an unknown format. If our documents are our corporate memory, Microsoft still has us all condemned to Alzheimer's. -- Simon Phipps ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
