Re: Promise RAID controller howto?

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

Hi,

as far as I can see (you're talking about the "rel.tgz" archive from
the LinuxBETA directory, don't you?), this is just glue code for their
binary only "ftlib.o" driver.

No real open source here. Maybe Andre can work something from the
header structures.  But then again, the archive is dated 9/28/2000,
it's not exactly new...

Regards
Henning



On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:41:11PM +0200, Erik van Asselt wrote:
> Hm i have the Promise raid source for 2.2 kernel modules so what do you mean
> by opensource signatures
> 
> i have it working for 2.2 kernels but i can't get it to work properly in 2.4
> So if someone want to look at the source !!!
> it can be found on www.promise.com
> 
> Assie
> 
> Andre Hedrick schreef:
> 
> > On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I know, that this is a FAQ and the Promise RAID controller card is not
> > > yet usable as a RAID board under Linux 2.x but is there a way to use
> > > the controller just like the UltraATA 100 controller?
> >
> > It is not a raid board ... it is a raid lie
> >
> > > I know, that "input high == UltraATA core, input low = RAID core"
> > > according to Andre Hedrick but I really don't care about the RAID
> > > core. I want to use this controller to drive JBOD.
> >
> > Wrong, if Promise will opensource the signatures then we map the software
> > raid against that location and use Linux's soft-raid.
> >
> > > Can one do this? The disks need not to be interchangeable to other
> > > controllers.  Just be accessible.
> > >
> > > 2.2 solutions preferred, 2.4 ok.
> > >
> > >   Regards
> > >   Henning
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
> > > INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> > > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > > Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> > >
> >
> > Andre Hedrick
> > Linux ATA Development
> > ASL Kernel Development
> > -
> > ASL, Inc. Toll free: 1-877-ASL-3535
> > 1757 Houret Court     Fax: 1-408-941-2071
> > Milpitas, CA 95035Web: www.aslab.com
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Promise RAID controller howto?

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

Hi,

as far as I can see (you're talking about the "rel.tgz" archive from
the LinuxBETA directory, don't you?), this is just glue code for their
binary only "ftlib.o" driver.

No real open source here. Maybe Andre can work something from the
header structures.  But then again, the archive is dated 9/28/2000,
it's not exactly new...

Regards
Henning



On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:41:11PM +0200, Erik van Asselt wrote:
 Hm i have the Promise raid source for 2.2 kernel modules so what do you mean
 by opensource signatures
 
 i have it working for 2.2 kernels but i can't get it to work properly in 2.4
 So if someone want to look at the source !!!
 it can be found on www.promise.com
 
 Assie
 
 Andre Hedrick schreef:
 
  On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
 
   Hi,
  
   I know, that this is a FAQ and the Promise RAID controller card is not
   yet usable as a RAID board under Linux 2.x but is there a way to use
   the controller just like the UltraATA 100 controller?
 
  It is not a raid board ... it is a raid lie
 
   I know, that "input high == UltraATA core, input low = RAID core"
   according to Andre Hedrick but I really don't care about the RAID
   core. I want to use this controller to drive JBOD.
 
  Wrong, if Promise will opensource the signatures then we map the software
  raid against that location and use Linux's soft-raid.
 
   Can one do this? The disks need not to be interchangeable to other
   controllers.  Just be accessible.
  
   2.2 solutions preferred, 2.4 ok.
  
 Regards
 Henning
  
   --
   Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
   INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
   -
   To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
   the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
   Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
  
 
  Andre Hedrick
  Linux ATA Development
  ASL Kernel Development
  -
  ASL, Inc. Toll free: 1-877-ASL-3535
  1757 Houret Court Fax: 1-408-941-2071
  Milpitas, CA 95035Web: www.aslab.com
 
  -
  To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
  the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
  Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Promise RAID controller howto?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Hi,

I know, that this is a FAQ and the Promise RAID controller card is not
yet usable as a RAID board under Linux 2.x but is there a way to use
the controller just like the UltraATA 100 controller?

I know, that "input high == UltraATA core, input low = RAID core"
according to Andre Hedrick but I really don't care about the RAID
core. I want to use this controller to drive JBOD.

Can one do this? The disks need not to be interchangeable to other
controllers.  Just be accessible.

2.2 solutions preferred, 2.4 ok.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Promise RAID controller howto?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Hi,

I know, that this is a FAQ and the Promise RAID controller card is not
yet usable as a RAID board under Linux 2.x but is there a way to use
the controller just like the UltraATA 100 controller?

I know, that "input high == UltraATA core, input low = RAID core"
according to Andre Hedrick but I really don't care about the RAID
core. I want to use this controller to drive JBOD.

Can one do this? The disks need not to be interchangeable to other
controllers.  Just be accessible.

2.2 solutions preferred, 2.4 ok.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux Worm (fwd)

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard B. Johnson) writes:

>I have just received notice that my machines will no longer be
>provided access to "The Internet".

>"Effective on or before 16:00:00 local time, the only personal
>computers that will be allowed Internet access are those administered
>by a Microsoft Certified Network Administrator. This means that
>no Unix or Linux machines will be provided access beyond the local
>area network. If you require Internet access, the company will
>provide a PC which runs a secure operating system such as Microsoft
>Windows, or Windows/NT. Insecure operating systems like Linux must
>be removed from company owned computers before the end of this week."

This is a troll, right? I mean, you wouldn't work for a company that
publishes such internal memos (and allows its employees to post in
into a public mailing list), would you?

If you're working for a company that considers one OS "more secure"
than another, your "security administrator" should really get a clue.

I mean, they all suck. Really, all of them. That's why they're OSes. ;-)

        Regards
    Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux Worm (fwd)

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard B. Johnson) writes:

I have just received notice that my machines will no longer be
provided access to "The Internet".

"Effective on or before 16:00:00 local time, the only personal
computers that will be allowed Internet access are those administered
by a Microsoft Certified Network Administrator. This means that
no Unix or Linux machines will be provided access beyond the local
area network. If you require Internet access, the company will
provide a PC which runs a secure operating system such as Microsoft
Windows, or Windows/NT. Insecure operating systems like Linux must
be removed from company owned computers before the end of this week."

This is a troll, right? I mean, you wouldn't work for a company that
publishes such internal memos (and allows its employees to post in
into a public mailing list), would you?

If you're working for a company that considers one OS "more secure"
than another, your "security administrator" should really get a clue.

I mean, they all suck. Really, all of them. That's why they're OSes. ;-)

Regards
    Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [PATCH] Improved version reporting

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>Looking at fdformat to get the util-linux version is perhaps
>not the most reliable way - some people have fdformat from fd-utils or so.
>Using mount --version would be better - I am not aware of any
>other mount distribution.

Bad idea. RedHat has mount and util-linux in different RPMs (at least 6.x).

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: poll() behaves differently in Linux 2.4.1 vs. Linux 2.2.14 (POLLHUP)

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (David S. Miller) writes:

>Jeffrey Butler writes:
> >   I've noticed that poll() calls on IPv4 sockets do
> > not behave the same under linux 2.4 vs. linux 2.2.14. 
> > Linux 2.4 will return POLLHUP for a socket that is not
> > connected (and has never been connected) while Linux
> > 2.2 will not.
> >   The following example program demonstrates the
> > problem when it's run under linux 2.4:

>True, this behavior was changed from 2.2.x.  We now match the behavior
>of other svr4 systems, in particular Solaris.  This new behavior in
>2.4.x will not change.

Hi,

but Jeffrey wrote:

--- cut ---
JB> Other operating systems (not that they are necessarily
JB> correct) also output the same as Linux 2.2.14.  I
JB> tried this on FreeBSD 4.4.1, Solaris 5.7 (on a SPARC),
JB> and Windows 2000 with Cygwin 1.1.7.
--- cut ---

This is BSD, SysVR4 and an abomination all behaving like 2.2.x and not
2.4.x (which confuses the heck out of a poll()-using daemon
here... :-) )

I'd prefer not to have too many user space surprises in moving from
2.2 to 2.4.

    Regards
    Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: poll() behaves differently in Linux 2.4.1 vs. Linux 2.2.14 (POLLHUP)

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (David S. Miller) writes:

Jeffrey Butler writes:
I've noticed that poll() calls on IPv4 sockets do
  not behave the same under linux 2.4 vs. linux 2.2.14. 
  Linux 2.4 will return POLLHUP for a socket that is not
  connected (and has never been connected) while Linux
  2.2 will not.
The following example program demonstrates the
  problem when it's run under linux 2.4:

True, this behavior was changed from 2.2.x.  We now match the behavior
of other svr4 systems, in particular Solaris.  This new behavior in
2.4.x will not change.

Hi,

but Jeffrey wrote:

--- cut ---
JB Other operating systems (not that they are necessarily
JB correct) also output the same as Linux 2.2.14.  I
JB tried this on FreeBSD 4.4.1, Solaris 5.7 (on a SPARC),
JB and Windows 2000 with Cygwin 1.1.7.
--- cut ---

This is BSD, SysVR4 and an abomination all behaving like 2.2.x and not
2.4.x (which confuses the heck out of a poll()-using daemon
here... :-) )

I'd prefer not to have too many user space surprises in moving from
2.2 to 2.4.

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [PATCH] Improved version reporting

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Looking at fdformat to get the util-linux version is perhaps
not the most reliable way - some people have fdformat from fd-utils or so.
Using mount --version would be better - I am not aware of any
other mount distribution.

Bad idea. RedHat has mount and util-linux in different RPMs (at least 6.x).

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: What is 2.4 Linux networking performance like compared to BSD?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Reiser) writes:

> If I can't get information about BSD v. Linux 2.4 networking code,
> then reiserfs has to get ported to BSD which will be both nice and a
> pain to do.

So we would get dual-licensed ReiserFS (BSD and GPL)? 

Are you aware of the legal implications, making your currently
GPL-only code BSD-licensed (status of third party patches for the GPL
code and so on)?

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: What is 2.4 Linux networking performance like compared to BSD?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Reiser) writes:

 If I can't get information about BSD v. Linux 2.4 networking code,
 then reiserfs has to get ported to BSD which will be both nice and a
 pain to do.

So we would get dual-licensed ReiserFS (BSD and GPL)? 

Are you aware of the legal implications, making your currently
GPL-only code BSD-licensed (status of third party patches for the GPL
code and so on)?

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: TESTERS PLEASE - improvements to knfsd for 2.4.2

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Neil Brown) writes:

> I am looking forward to seeing lots of downloads and absolutely no
> problem reports but is seems unlikely.

> Alan Cox has suggested that these changes may not be appropriate for
> 2.4, so we might have to wait for 2.5 to see them on kernel.org, but
> we don't have to wait till then to find the bugs.

Oh, please not again a stable kernel series with NFS problems, we're
locked in for ages. 2.2 was bad enough up to 2.2.18. We have ReiserFS
in 2.4.1 (and not in 2.4.0), could we _please_ get NFS-exportable
ReiserFS in 2.4.4 or 2.4.5?

Yes, will test. :-) Though I won't touch any 2.4 release in production
up to at least 2.4.5 (first really usable 2.0 was around this, first
2.2 too. =:-)

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: TESTERS PLEASE - improvements to knfsd for 2.4.2

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Neil Brown) writes:

 I am looking forward to seeing lots of downloads and absolutely no
 problem reports but is seems unlikely.

 Alan Cox has suggested that these changes may not be appropriate for
 2.4, so we might have to wait for 2.5 to see them on kernel.org, but
 we don't have to wait till then to find the bugs.

Oh, please not again a stable kernel series with NFS problems, we're
locked in for ages. 2.2 was bad enough up to 2.2.18. We have ReiserFS
in 2.4.1 (and not in 2.4.0), could we _please_ get NFS-exportable
ReiserFS in 2.4.4 or 2.4.5?

Yes, will test. :-) Though I won't touch any 2.4 release in production
up to at least 2.4.5 (first really usable 2.0 was around this, first
2.2 too. =:-)

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 05:07:02AM -0600, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Werner Almesberger wrote:
> > Now what's at stake ? Look at the Windows world. Also there, companies
> > could release their drivers as Open Source. Quick, how many do this ?
> > Almost none. So, given the choice, most companies have defaulted to
> > closed source. Consistently complaining when a company tries to release
> > only closed source drivers for Linux seems to generally have the desired
> > effect of making them change their policy.
> 
> FWIW, -every single- Windows driver source code I've seen has been
> bloody awful.  Asking them to release that code would probably result in
> embarrassment.  Same reasoning why many companies won't release hardware
> specifications...  The internal docs are bad.  Really bad.

Because they start off bloody awful examples. From the DDK. And they
have noone to ask but M$. And they hire a student or a contract
company to write a driver after ambigous specs from the DDK.  Or they
just reiterate on a chip-vendor-supported driver again and again
(Quick, can anyone say "NVidia"?). And who certificates (hah!) a
driver written after the DDK to run on an OS? Right, the vendor of
both. =:-)

And the public documentation must be cleared by a lawyer to not
accidentially release IP of another company. And they must be reworked
by a tech writer to be readable for people that "can't go to office
#307 and ask Fred about the wiring details".

All boils down to money, IMHO, not always to bad will. Sometimes,
yes. Most of the time, the CFO will just as the project manager:
"Costs how much? Earns how much?".

I would even like think, that some HW companies would release drivers
as open source if they would be able to find individuals or contract
companies, that are willing to sign NDAs to use the inhouse
information for writing a driver without leaking the information
itself out.

I know of some companies that do that kind of contract work. 
Unfortunately most of the time for more exotic HW.

BTW: Lawyer question: 

"I release a driver as open source under, BSD license. May I put it
into the kernel source tree or must I compile it as a separate
loadable module for not being in GPL violation."

According to my understanding of the loadable module issue and the GPL
of the kernel, I must distribute the source separated from the kernel
source and may only compile as loadable module. 

Would twin licensing solve this? But then I must not pull changes from
the GPL tree back into my BSD tree and distribute this BSD tree under
BSD license, because this license allows a vendor binary only
distribution which is forbidden by the GPL'ed changes. And I must not
pose the "changes to the GPL'ed sources can be pulled back into the
BSD sources" restriction on the tree because then I am already in
violation of the GPL ("must not put additional restrictions on").

So, is it legal to put changes to a twin licensed driver in the Linux
kernel tree back into the same driver in the BSD tree?

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 11:53:14AM +0100, Werner Almesberger wrote:
> Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:

> Fine. So you've reinvented AIX, HP-UX, SCO, etc. The question is what
> you expect from Linux. After all, you strongly disagree with the main
> common denominator of Linux developers, that it be Open Source.

No, I don't. I don't at all. But I prefer a more pragmatic approach to
the developers and companies who don't.

And yes, there _is_ IMHO a difference in telling someone on LKM,
especially someone without deeper knowledge that is lookin for help:

"You're using a non-open source driver, so we can't help you. Please
ask your vendor for support."

and

"Fuck off,  Luser".

("Der Ton macht die Musik". Sorry don't know the equal english
expression).

Regards
        Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 11:53:14AM +0100, Werner Almesberger wrote:
 Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:

 Fine. So you've reinvented AIX, HP-UX, SCO, etc. The question is what
 you expect from Linux. After all, you strongly disagree with the main
 common denominator of Linux developers, that it be Open Source.

No, I don't. I don't at all. But I prefer a more pragmatic approach to
the developers and companies who don't.

And yes, there _is_ IMHO a difference in telling someone on LKM,
especially someone without deeper knowledge that is lookin for help:

"You're using a non-open source driver, so we can't help you. Please
ask your vendor for support."

and

"Fuck off, insert binary vendor, software or distribution Luser".

("Der Ton macht die Musik". Sorry don't know the equal english
expression).

Regards
Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 05:07:02AM -0600, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Werner Almesberger wrote:
  Now what's at stake ? Look at the Windows world. Also there, companies
  could release their drivers as Open Source. Quick, how many do this ?
  Almost none. So, given the choice, most companies have defaulted to
  closed source. Consistently complaining when a company tries to release
  only closed source drivers for Linux seems to generally have the desired
  effect of making them change their policy.
 
 FWIW, -every single- Windows driver source code I've seen has been
 bloody awful.  Asking them to release that code would probably result in
 embarrassment.  Same reasoning why many companies won't release hardware
 specifications...  The internal docs are bad.  Really bad.

Because they start off bloody awful examples. From the DDK. And they
have noone to ask but M$. And they hire a student or a contract
company to write a driver after ambigous specs from the DDK.  Or they
just reiterate on a chip-vendor-supported driver again and again
(Quick, can anyone say "NVidia"?). And who certificates (hah!) a
driver written after the DDK to run on an OS? Right, the vendor of
both. =:-)

And the public documentation must be cleared by a lawyer to not
accidentially release IP of another company. And they must be reworked
by a tech writer to be readable for people that "can't go to office
#307 and ask Fred about the wiring details".

All boils down to money, IMHO, not always to bad will. Sometimes,
yes. Most of the time, the CFO will just as the project manager:
"Costs how much? Earns how much?".

I would even like think, that some HW companies would release drivers
as open source if they would be able to find individuals or contract
companies, that are willing to sign NDAs to use the inhouse
information for writing a driver without leaking the information
itself out.

I know of some companies that do that kind of contract work. 
Unfortunately most of the time for more exotic HW.

BTW: Lawyer question: 

"I release a driver as open source under, BSD license. May I put it
into the kernel source tree or must I compile it as a separate
loadable module for not being in GPL violation."

According to my understanding of the loadable module issue and the GPL
of the kernel, I must distribute the source separated from the kernel
source and may only compile as loadable module. 

Would twin licensing solve this? But then I must not pull changes from
the GPL tree back into my BSD tree and distribute this BSD tree under
BSD license, because this license allows a vendor binary only
distribution which is forbidden by the GPL'ed changes. And I must not
pose the "changes to the GPL'ed sources can be pulled back into the
BSD sources" restriction on the tree because then I am already in
violation of the GPL ("must not put additional restrictions on").

So, is it legal to put changes to a twin licensed driver in the Linux
kernel tree back into the same driver in the BSD tree?

Regards
    Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 09:50:17AM -0800, Andre Hedrick wrote:

[...]
> If you do not like that rule, LEAVE!  
[...]
> if I catch you abusing the privildge of use of my work, I will
> pursue you in terms defined as actionable.
[...]
> And you do not have the knowledge or authority to comment on this subject
> where "I do".
[...]

Bla, bla, bla. The usual Andre Hedrick rant about how superior you're
to all other, threats and the cited hostility of "open source advocats" 
about everyone not their opinion.

You may be a really talented software developer with a deep under-
standing of the ATA subsystem. That does not give you the right to
insult all other people that are not your opinion.

> When you begin to learn that OpenSource is the way and that some of us
> will work with companies on an as needed bases.  At this point if you came

Andre, I do this since quite a few years. I can live quote good from
it in my small vertical market and I love using free software for the
flexibility that I get. But this does not mean, that I will never ever
touch again a program where I have no source. I do this all the time
without and ideological prejudice.

> Once Linux decides to adopt and support AV Streams, it will be in the best
> interrest of TiVO to work with me so that they do not have to work against
> me. 

I see the fine point of you using the word "me". Not "the Linux community".

        Regards
    Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

I wrote:

>The matter with me is: "Vendors AAA ships its hardware product with a
>driver for i386/Linux". The driver may be closed source, but at least
>there _is_ a driver. Russell now says: "This is bad, because I can't use
>the driver for my ARM box. So the vendor should ship no driver at
>all. This is better than a i386-only driver". 

Russell told me, that this is not what he said. I seem to have
over-interpreted his statements. I apologize for that.

Regards
    Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Felix von Leitner) writes:

>Thus spake Henning P . Schmiedehausen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
>> "If a company does not write a driver which works on all hardware
>>  platforms in all cases and gives us the source, then it is better,
>>  that the company writes no drivers at all."

>> "If I can't force a company to write a driver for everyone, then I
>>  don't want to write them any driver at all."

>> IMHO you're like a spoiled kid: "If I can't have it, noone should have it".

>Henning, what is the matter with you?

The matter with me is: "Vendors AAA ships its hardware product with a
driver for i386/Linux". The driver may be closed source, but at least
there _is_ a driver. Russell now says: "This is bad, because I can't use
the driver for my ARM box. So the vendor should ship no driver at
all. This is better than a i386-only driver". 

I say "I'm happy that there is _ANY_ driver at all. Because the vendor
has recognized the importance of Linux at least on i386. And if they
did this and they see, that they _can_ get market share, maybe they
will start thinking about releasing for other architectures, too. Or
even release the source to their driver".

And if someone wants a driver for the hardware of vendor AAA on ARM
and vendor AAA does decide _not_ to release the product for ARM, it is
their right to do so. 

And Russell may still approach AAA to release an ARM driver, too. Or
buy a product from BBB, which does support ARM with either a
vendor-supported close source driver or an open source driver.

Someone approached Legato to release a MIPS/Linux version of their
backup client. Maybe they even paid for the port. And now, everyone
can get this client from the Legato website. It is still closed
source, but still, everyone that has a MIPS/Linux box benefited from
this. 

>I bought the hardware.  Why should I pay for the driver?

If the hardware is "NOT SUPPORTED BESIDES LINUX/i386" and you have an
ARM, the solution is simple: DON'T BUY IT. VOTE WITH YOUR MONEY. If
Linux/ARM starts becoming a sigificant part of the market share,
vendor AAA will either lose to vendor BBB or release a driver for ARM.

>Please state your intentions.  Why would you want to split the Linux
>user base into people who pay companies to screw them (I get a driver
>for hardware I already paid for, but the driver will work with exactly
>one kernel version on one hardware) and people who think they deserve
>support when they buy hardware?

If you buy a hardware and on the box is stated "Supported on Windows,
MacOS and Linux/i386" and you have none of these platforms, why buy
it? If you buy it and then start complaining "it is not vendor-
supported on Linux/ARM", it is your fault and not the fault of the
vendor. If the vendor puts a second box next to the hardware box on
the shelves, which just contains a CD-ROM with a binary only driver
for Linux/ARM and sells this box for $99, it's their right to do
so. And Russell can buy a vendor supported driver for Linux/ARM.

>Why do we even have to discuss drivers?
>A company that actively hinders developing a good driver with patents,
>NDAs or other legal crap does not deserve my money.  If you throw your
>money at such people, you deserve everything you get.

That's exactly my point. Nice to see, that we agree. ;-) See
above. Vote with your money. But IMHO it's better to get
vendor-supported drivers for Linux/i386, than no driver at
all. Because if these drivers do not work, I _can_ call the company
and complain.

And I actively _DON'T_ want _YOU_ to decide what _I_ want. If I can
get a driver for the hardware XXX that I need for a project and vendor
AAA sells me a driver for this product on Linux only for a certain
platform, kernel version and distribution, it is _MY_ _PERSONAL_
_DECISION_ to still buy this driver or not. I don't want anyone to
tell me "you must not do this, because it's bad". If it's bad or not,
please let me decide. I'm old enough to decide for myself.

I WANT THE CHOICE. If I have no choice, I buy the product on another
platform.

And you can be sure, I will not come running to LKM to complain and
demand support.

And you can even sue if you're in Germany and the driver does not work
as stated on the box("Erfüllung zugesicherter Eigenschaften, Nach-
besserung oder Wandlung").

Regards
Henning

P.S.: I consider "configuring a mailer so that it does not accept mail
from a sender" neither good style nor "das letzte Wort" in a discussion. 
It is IMHO a sign of weakness and inability to discuss on an objective
base. It is more like "I don't like your opinion, so I censor you".
Discussion, Microsoft-style.

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ben Ford) writes:

>> On the other hand, they make excellent mice.  The mouse wheel and
>> the new optical mice are truly innovative and Microsoft should be
>> commended for them. 
>> 
>The wheel was a nifty idea, but I've seen workstations 15 years old with 
>optical mice.  It wasn't MS's idea.

Abstracting the graphics API from the hardware wasn't M$ idea,
either. But they succeeded where Amiga failed. Having an idea is 99%
of the innovation and 1% of the success.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael H. Warfield) writes:

> Excuse me?  A 1 billion dolar investment in Linux is not
>supporting it?

On their own hardware.

> Setting up tier 1 and tier 2 support services for a half a dozen
>distributions is not supporting it?  

For their own hardware.

> Porting their AIX file systems and applications is not supporting
> it?

Keeping their legacy customer base on their products. Showing a
migration path that stays on their products and does not move to M$ or
another vendor.

> Porting it to the 390 is not supporting it?

Their own hardware.

>  You bet'cha they are taking advantage of the fact that people want
> it.  They would be damn fools in business if they didn't take
> advantage of that.

They want to stay in business. They don't want to lose their
customers. I remember an interview with an IBM exec which went along
the lines "We're supporting 25 different OS. Linux is OS #26. So, no
news for us here".

> And that means supporting it.  It's to their advantage to support it
> and they see it.  You must have a really bizzare idea of what
> support means...

It means "keep my customer base happy with me, so they give me more
bucks".

I'm sure, that their business plan with Linux says "we get two bucks
for every every one that we spend". IBM is an iron vendor. They have a
strong software product line but their first target is selling "IBM
software on an IBM supported OS on IBM hardware". And if the "IBM
supported OS" is not M$ Windows, which they have to pay a license fee
for but a "license-free OS" which is even developed for them, it's
good for them. And they get "community recognition" and a good press
thrown in for free.

It's "win - win" for them. And, BTW, for us and Linux too, which is a
good thing.

Regards
Henning

P.S.: Oh, look a me. Living in an environment where IBM are the good
guys. The horrors. The horrors. ;-)

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Torrey Hoffman) writes:

[...]
>Some things to consider, in no particular order:
[...]

Uniform support from most of the hard- and software vendors on this
planet. Support for 50.000+ different hardware expansions with all
their features from grabber cards to color printers and network cards
to 3D graphics accelerators for their whole product line.

That's not innovation, you're correct. But that's 99% of what users
care about.

I still have no really well working Linux driver for the modem in my
notebook. And it is not even a WinModem. I have a 95% working
closed-source, binary only driver patched to my kernel version, which
at least for me is better than nothing.

>- Innovative new hardware devices are more likely to be based on
>Linux than any Microsoft OS. For example, the TiVO, the coolest 
>improvement to television since the VCR.

Because it is cheaper to use. Linux has no license fee. That's what
the TiVO vendor cares about.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gregory Maxwell) writes:

>when you said commercial above) drivers for Linux, including the steaming
>pile of garbage your company ships.

"hostile behaviour of the open source community towards people that
don't agree to their ideas".

q.e.d. Thanks.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

. They can't get Linux with this and that's
why they're afraid. And that's where such a Linux-bashing article
comes from.

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

why they're afraid. And that's where such a Linux-bashing article
comes from.

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gregory Maxwell) writes:

when you said commercial above) drivers for Linux, including the steaming
pile of garbage your company ships.

"hostile behaviour of the open source community towards people that
don't agree to their ideas".

q.e.d. Thanks.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Torrey Hoffman) writes:

[...]
Some things to consider, in no particular order:
[...]

Uniform support from most of the hard- and software vendors on this
planet. Support for 50.000+ different hardware expansions with all
their features from grabber cards to color printers and network cards
to 3D graphics accelerators for their whole product line.

That's not innovation, you're correct. But that's 99% of what users
care about.

I still have no really well working Linux driver for the modem in my
notebook. And it is not even a WinModem. I have a 95% working
closed-source, binary only driver patched to my kernel version, which
at least for me is better than nothing.

- Innovative new hardware devices are more likely to be based on
Linux than any Microsoft OS. For example, the TiVO, the coolest 
improvement to television since the VCR.

Because it is cheaper to use. Linux has no license fee. That's what
the TiVO vendor cares about.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ben Ford) writes:

 On the other hand, they make excellent mice.  The mouse wheel and
 the new optical mice are truly innovative and Microsoft should be
 commended for them. 
 
The wheel was a nifty idea, but I've seen workstations 15 years old with 
optical mice.  It wasn't MS's idea.

Abstracting the graphics API from the hardware wasn't M$ idea,
either. But they succeeded where Amiga failed. Having an idea is 99%
of the innovation and 1% of the success.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael H. Warfield) writes:

 Excuse me?  A 1 billion dolar investment in Linux is not
supporting it?

On their own hardware.

 Setting up tier 1 and tier 2 support services for a half a dozen
distributions is not supporting it?  

For their own hardware.

 Porting their AIX file systems and applications is not supporting
 it?

Keeping their legacy customer base on their products. Showing a
migration path that stays on their products and does not move to M$ or
another vendor.

 Porting it to the 390 is not supporting it?

Their own hardware.

  You bet'cha they are taking advantage of the fact that people want
 it.  They would be damn fools in business if they didn't take
 advantage of that.

They want to stay in business. They don't want to lose their
customers. I remember an interview with an IBM exec which went along
the lines "We're supporting 25 different OS. Linux is OS #26. So, no
news for us here".

 And that means supporting it.  It's to their advantage to support it
 and they see it.  You must have a really bizzare idea of what
 support means...

It means "keep my customer base happy with me, so they give me more
bucks".

I'm sure, that their business plan with Linux says "we get two bucks
for every every one that we spend". IBM is an iron vendor. They have a
strong software product line but their first target is selling "IBM
software on an IBM supported OS on IBM hardware". And if the "IBM
supported OS" is not M$ Windows, which they have to pay a license fee
for but a "license-free OS" which is even developed for them, it's
good for them. And they get "community recognition" and a good press
thrown in for free.

It's "win - win" for them. And, BTW, for us and Linux too, which is a
good thing.

Regards
Henning

P.S.: Oh, look a me. Living in an environment where IBM are the good
guys. The horrors. The horrors. ;-)

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Felix von Leitner) writes:

Thus spake Henning P . Schmiedehausen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 "If a company does not write a driver which works on all hardware
  platforms in all cases and gives us the source, then it is better,
  that the company writes no drivers at all."

 "If I can't force a company to write a driver for everyone, then I
  don't want to write them any driver at all."

 IMHO you're like a spoiled kid: "If I can't have it, noone should have it".

Henning, what is the matter with you?

The matter with me is: "Vendors AAA ships its hardware product with a
driver for i386/Linux". The driver may be closed source, but at least
there _is_ a driver. Russell now says: "This is bad, because I can't use
the driver for my ARM box. So the vendor should ship no driver at
all. This is better than a i386-only driver". 

I say "I'm happy that there is _ANY_ driver at all. Because the vendor
has recognized the importance of Linux at least on i386. And if they
did this and they see, that they _can_ get market share, maybe they
will start thinking about releasing for other architectures, too. Or
even release the source to their driver".

And if someone wants a driver for the hardware of vendor AAA on ARM
and vendor AAA does decide _not_ to release the product for ARM, it is
their right to do so. 

And Russell may still approach AAA to release an ARM driver, too. Or
buy a product from BBB, which does support ARM with either a
vendor-supported close source driver or an open source driver.

Someone approached Legato to release a MIPS/Linux version of their
backup client. Maybe they even paid for the port. And now, everyone
can get this client from the Legato website. It is still closed
source, but still, everyone that has a MIPS/Linux box benefited from
this. 

I bought the hardware.  Why should I pay for the driver?

If the hardware is "NOT SUPPORTED BESIDES LINUX/i386" and you have an
ARM, the solution is simple: DON'T BUY IT. VOTE WITH YOUR MONEY. If
Linux/ARM starts becoming a sigificant part of the market share,
vendor AAA will either lose to vendor BBB or release a driver for ARM.

Please state your intentions.  Why would you want to split the Linux
user base into people who pay companies to screw them (I get a driver
for hardware I already paid for, but the driver will work with exactly
one kernel version on one hardware) and people who think they deserve
support when they buy hardware?

If you buy a hardware and on the box is stated "Supported on Windows,
MacOS and Linux/i386" and you have none of these platforms, why buy
it? If you buy it and then start complaining "it is not vendor-
supported on Linux/ARM", it is your fault and not the fault of the
vendor. If the vendor puts a second box next to the hardware box on
the shelves, which just contains a CD-ROM with a binary only driver
for Linux/ARM and sells this box for $99, it's their right to do
so. And Russell can buy a vendor supported driver for Linux/ARM.

Why do we even have to discuss drivers?
A company that actively hinders developing a good driver with patents,
NDAs or other legal crap does not deserve my money.  If you throw your
money at such people, you deserve everything you get.

That's exactly my point. Nice to see, that we agree. ;-) See
above. Vote with your money. But IMHO it's better to get
vendor-supported drivers for Linux/i386, than no driver at
all. Because if these drivers do not work, I _can_ call the company
and complain.

And I actively _DON'T_ want _YOU_ to decide what _I_ want. If I can
get a driver for the hardware XXX that I need for a project and vendor
AAA sells me a driver for this product on Linux only for a certain
platform, kernel version and distribution, it is _MY_ _PERSONAL_
_DECISION_ to still buy this driver or not. I don't want anyone to
tell me "you must not do this, because it's bad". If it's bad or not,
please let me decide. I'm old enough to decide for myself.

I WANT THE CHOICE. If I have no choice, I buy the product on another
platform.

And you can be sure, I will not come running to LKM to complain and
demand support.

And you can even sue if you're in Germany and the driver does not work
as stated on the box("Erfllung zugesicherter Eigenschaften, Nach-
besserung oder Wandlung").

Regards
Henning

P.S.: I consider "configuring a mailer so that it does not accept mail
from a sender" neither good style nor "das letzte Wort" in a discussion. 
It is IMHO a sign of weakness and inability to discuss on an objective
base. It is more like "I don't like your opinion, so I censor you".
Discussion, Microsoft-style.

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-9105

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

I wrote:

The matter with me is: "Vendors AAA ships its hardware product with a
driver for i386/Linux". The driver may be closed source, but at least
there _is_ a driver. Russell now says: "This is bad, because I can't use
the driver for my ARM box. So the vendor should ship no driver at
all. This is better than a i386-only driver". 

Russell told me, that this is not what he said. I seem to have
over-interpreted his statements. I apologize for that.

Regards
Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 09:50:17AM -0800, Andre Hedrick wrote:

[...]
 If you do not like that rule, LEAVE!  
[...]
 if I catch you abusing the privildge of use of my work, I will
 pursue you in terms defined as actionable.
[...]
 And you do not have the knowledge or authority to comment on this subject
 where "I do".
[...]

Bla, bla, bla. The usual Andre Hedrick rant about how superior you're
to all other, threats and the cited hostility of "open source advocats" 
about everyone not their opinion.

You may be a really talented software developer with a deep under-
standing of the ATA subsystem. That does not give you the right to
insult all other people that are not your opinion.

 When you begin to learn that OpenSource is the way and that some of us
 will work with companies on an as needed bases.  At this point if you came

Andre, I do this since quite a few years. I can live quote good from
it in my small vertical market and I love using free software for the
flexibility that I get. But this does not mean, that I will never ever
touch again a program where I have no source. I do this all the time
without and ideological prejudice.

 Once Linux decides to adopt and support AV Streams, it will be in the best
 interrest of TiVO to work with me so that they do not have to work against
 me. 

I see the fine point of you using the word "me". Not "the Linux community".

Regards
    Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 01:37:58PM +, Russell King wrote:

> Henning P. Schmiedehausen writes:
> > But at least I would be happy if there would be a printing
> > engine that is entirely open source and all the printer vendors can
> > write a small, closed source stub that drives their printer over
> > parallel port, ethernet or USB and give us all the features, that the
> > Linux _USERS_ (and these are the people that count) want.
> 
> Speaking as a Linux _USER_, if this happens, can I get said print
> engine working on my ARM machines with these closed source drivers?
>
> Can Alpha users get this print system working?  Can Sparc uses
> get it working?  What?  I can't?  They can't?  Well, its no good to
> me nor them.  

Maybe not. But you can use this print engine API to pay anyone to
write a driver for you. What you just said, is exactly my point. You
said:

"If a company does not write a driver which works on all hardware
 platforms in all cases and gives us the source, then it is better,
 that the company writes no drivers at all."

"If I can't force a company to write a driver for everyone, then I
 don't want to write them any driver at all."

IMHO you're like a spoiled kid: "If I can't have it, noone should have it".

> You've just made the system x86 specific.  Well done, thats a step
> backwards, not forwards.

No. Some Linux users got a driver that works as well as the drivers
for another OS. This is good for Linux. And all Linux users and
developers got an open, stable API, which is supported by big printer
vendors and enables everyone to write good drivers.

If you need a printer driver for the ARM, you're able to approach the
company XXX and either pay for an ARM specific driver (and they will
listen to you because they already have made a driver for another
Linux platform, learned that they can make money with Linux software
and have experience with driver(s) for Linux. And it will be just a
recompile most of the time).

> Ah, golly, I'll just have to throw my ARM machines away because
> we have some critical parts of the system which are closed source.

We're talking about a driver. If Company XX won't sell it to you for
your architecture, it's their right to do so. There is software that
I've written that you might want to have, too. If I chose not to sell
it to you, what do you do? You can say "company XX sucks" and buy an
equal product with an ARM driver from YY which listens to you. _THAT_
is IMHO open. Not forcing everyone to comply with your ideology.

> > But even if there is such an engine written for Gnome or KDE, some
> > really ingenious "free software advocate" will slap a "must not be
> > used with any kind of non-GPL driver" on it...
> 
> Good.  I build the stuff to work on my ARM machines.

Can you get a Legato Networker Client for Linux-ARM? Can you get one for
Linux-MIPS? Why? Because someone payed for the port.

> They don't work on ARM though, do they?  Gee, I guess ARM Ltd ought to
> stop my contract because what use is an ARM kernel without everything
> else to go with it?
> 
> For me, closed source is _REALLY_ bad news.  _EXTREMELY_ bad news.
> It 100% prevents me from doing stuff.

No. It means, that for some programs, in order to have them, you have
to pay. That is fine. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. You
may, of course, chose not to pay, but then you may not be able to use
a certain program.

Look, I'm willing to pay money for the whole M$ Office Suite on
Linux. Yes.  I would give billg gladly a big chunk of my money to get
this application suite on Linux. Not a copy or a "just almost like M$
Office". But the real thing. The real "M$ Office 2k" suite for Linux.

Can I?  No. Because M$ chose not to offer its product for Linux. Bad
for me. It means, that I can not get parts of my work done on Linux.
Can I buy AutoCAD? Photoshop? Quicken? Outlook? Visio? Not look alikes
or clones or "almost as good as". But the real thing with the same
support as on Windows. I can for the Mac. Why can't I for Linux?

Because IMHO some companies shy away from the aggressive and sometime
openly hostile behaviour of the Open Source community ("If you don't
support your application on Linux/SPARC with an B/W framebuffer, you
suck. Go away") towards commercial companies.  ("If you don't support
Gnome 1.0 but just KDE 2.1, you suck. Go away"). And billg laughs and
just points the confused companies towards the "stable" and "easy to
use" M$ OS.

And the volatile APIs which are immature in some points (Font handling. 
Printer support. Color handling. Same things all the time. But displaying 
the results of your work and printing them onto paper is for many
people the most important thing. And frankly, Linux sucks here).

In your opinion, it is 

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 02:58:45PM +0100, Jean Francois Micouleau wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> 
> > If IBM, Intel, Compaq, HP, Dell, SGI and other companies would
> > wholeheartedly drop their Windows support in favour of Linux, that I
> > would call "a move". If HP would spent only 5% of their driver writing
> > buget for Windows into Linux driver development, that I would call "a
> > move". 
> 
> I'm wondering if the $600 000 HP gave to VA linux and myself last year is
> only 5% of their driver budget.

> Henning, HP is supporting linux and the open source movement. They are
> paying people to port linux to the ia64 platform and the hp-pa risc.

Yes. They want to sell the IA64 and the HP-PA hardware. So it is
logically for them to fund people and companies that port the kernel
or build OS software for their hardware.

> They are supporting the open source movement by paying people like me to
> improve Samba.

Yes. They want to sell products which use this special piece of software.

I don't see HP supporting software authors to write CD-ROM burning
software for all CDROM writers just to be able to bundle Linux
software with their CDROM writers [just watching an HP commercial on
TV].

IMHO, this is no "basic change in company policy". HP and many other
companies understood that they have two ways to conduct their business
in the future: Being dependent on a company that dictates how to write
software, being forced to live with the way that company wants future
products to be and the fact that this company will always have an edge
over their competitors. Or the will support open _protocols_ like
CORBA, TCP/IP, XML and the like to keep their closed source products
working on many (especially their own) platforms and avoid the
strangle hold of a single company.

Linux is ideal for them because no company has "a grip" on the OS. 
This is good!

But is it "commitment to open source"? Or just "keeping all options
open"? Because these companies still support their products on M$. 

Most of the programs are in newer, larger and more mature versions for
Windows. Why? Did you ever try to write a non-web based GUI program
for Linux? For which Linux? Which desktop (besides using statically
linked motif applications or bare metal X11)? Which version of the
desktop? What tools do you get? How mature are the tools, especially
GUI builders and IDEs? Most developers in bigger companies are not
kernel wizards but just average run-of-the-mill-have-a-grip-on-c++
developers who code after specs.

Most companies simply use Java and leave the details to the VM. If you
write for Windows, you have an ugly and complicated API with lots of
bugs, but the API itself is stable since six (!) years.  You can write
programs that run on 95/98/ME/NT/2000 unchanged. Writing them sucks
but it is possible. For Linux to do so, you must use almost bare X11.

Don't get me wrong. I am _happy_ that there are big companies
recognizing, funding and supporting Linux. But then it is for Linux to
grow mature and recognize that these companies don't do it because
they think "Linux is cool". They do it because they think "Linux is
business. Linux is profit. Linux helps us to avoid the strangle hold
of M$" No news here. No basic direction change here. They do Windows
and anything else for exactly the same reasons.

And they don't do desktop applications besides java applications and
Web stuff.

Regards
Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael H. Warfield) writes:

>   But wasn't that Xerox that had that?  Yeah, the same ones that
>screwed us over with the compression patent that shot .gif images out
>of the sky.  There was inovation for you.

Wrong company. You may want to check your facts before bashing.


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike A. Harris) writes:

>On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Dennis wrote:

>>The biggest thing that the linux community does to stifle innovation is to
>>bash commercial vendors trying to make a profit by whining endlessly about
>>"sourceless" distributions and recommending "open-source" solutions even
>>when they are wholly inferior. You're only hurting yourselves in the long
>>run. In that respect MS is correct, because those with the dollars to
>>innovate will stay away.

>Try telling that to IBM, Intel, Compaq, Hewlett Packard, Dell,
>SGI, and a handful of other _major_ computer companies that now
>realize the importance of open source.

No. They spent some small money on it and wait and see how it works
out. If it doesnt't, well, life goes on.

If IBM, Intel, Compaq, HP, Dell, SGI and other companies would
wholeheartedly drop their Windows support in favour of Linux, that I
would call "a move". If HP would spent only 5% of their driver writing
buget for Windows into Linux driver development, that I would call "a
move". 

Everything else is just "Keeping our options open".

In this market, there are IMHO only two companies that have themselves
openly and clearly committed: SUN and Microsoft.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

swer (IMHO):

Programmer that can do so is tangled in the "it must be open, free,
GPL" idea. Company wants to make at least some bucks with their
products and the driver is part of the product. So they may want to
release a driver which is "closed source". Uh. I can see the flame
wars in the newsgroups "stay away from brand XX, they're publishing
evil closed source drivers". Better buy brand YY, they have no drivers
at all but you can use Ghostscript to get an inferior and worse
looking printout but have the warm feeling of "all open source".

You can be sure, that Company XX will not repeat their "drivers for
Linux" experiment with such media exposure.

The Linux community must grow. It must grow soon and it must grow
mature. People, even the most narrow minded open source advocates must
accept, that there are people out there, that happliy use
"proprietary", "closed source" and "open source" all along. Yes, you
have to obey the licenses. Yes, you have to point mistakes in
licensing and incompatible licensing out to companies, that make
mistakes. But at least I would be happy if there would be a printing
engine that is entirely open source and all the printer vendors can
write a small, closed source stub that drives their printer over
parallel port, ethernet or USB and give us all the features, that the
Linux _USERS_ (and these are the people that count) want. But even if
there is such an engine written for Gnome or KDE, some really
ingenious "free software advocate" will slap a "must not be used with
any kind of non-GPL driver" on it and all the printer vendors will
give you the finger.

And Billg is the one that wins.

The whole Linux community is using closed-source/open-source all along
for years: Netscape. Star Office. To name a few. Why is it so hard to
accept, that at least some people or companies are willing to offer
support for their products but not with their source? I charge these
companies for my support but I have no problem with their tools. I
even buy them (and get ripped off like with Cygnus Source Navigator :-( ).

And if you really read till here: No, I'm not an M$ advocate. I use M$
products for four things: Word, Excel, Powerpoint and my finance
software. I have to use M$ because there are no alternatives for Linux
that are acceptable in a professional, cross-company environment. If I
tell a customer "I can't open that document in Star Writer", they
start laughing.

But I spent some of my earlier years in a community which was s
much like the Linux community today: The Amiga environment. And it saw
it wither and die just because of this kind of in-fighting which
programming language to use to write the Word-Killer (C or Modula)
instead of _WRITING_ the Word-Killer.

I'm using Linux since seven years now. I don't want to lose it. But
then again, Linux must grow. I'm too old to switch to Windows now. ;-)

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Augustin Vidovic) writes:

>1- GPL code is the opposite of crap

No. A license doesn't automatically make good code.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike A. Harris) writes:

On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Dennis wrote:

The biggest thing that the linux community does to stifle innovation is to
bash commercial vendors trying to make a profit by whining endlessly about
"sourceless" distributions and recommending "open-source" solutions even
when they are wholly inferior. You're only hurting yourselves in the long
run. In that respect MS is correct, because those with the dollars to
innovate will stay away.

Try telling that to IBM, Intel, Compaq, Hewlett Packard, Dell,
SGI, and a handful of other _major_ computer companies that now
realize the importance of open source.

No. They spent some small money on it and wait and see how it works
out. If it doesnt't, well, life goes on.

If IBM, Intel, Compaq, HP, Dell, SGI and other companies would
wholeheartedly drop their Windows support in favour of Linux, that I
would call "a move". If HP would spent only 5% of their driver writing
buget for Windows into Linux driver development, that I would call "a
move". 

Everything else is just "Keeping our options open".

In this market, there are IMHO only two companies that have themselves
openly and clearly committed: SUN and Microsoft.

Regards
        Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

 in the "it must be open, free,
GPL" idea. Company wants to make at least some bucks with their
products and the driver is part of the product. So they may want to
release a driver which is "closed source". Uh. I can see the flame
wars in the newsgroups "stay away from brand XX, they're publishing
evil closed source drivers". Better buy brand YY, they have no drivers
at all but you can use Ghostscript to get an inferior and worse
looking printout but have the warm feeling of "all open source".

You can be sure, that Company XX will not repeat their "drivers for
Linux" experiment with such media exposure.

The Linux community must grow. It must grow soon and it must grow
mature. People, even the most narrow minded open source advocates must
accept, that there are people out there, that happliy use
"proprietary", "closed source" and "open source" all along. Yes, you
have to obey the licenses. Yes, you have to point mistakes in
licensing and incompatible licensing out to companies, that make
mistakes. But at least I would be happy if there would be a printing
engine that is entirely open source and all the printer vendors can
write a small, closed source stub that drives their printer over
parallel port, ethernet or USB and give us all the features, that the
Linux _USERS_ (and these are the people that count) want. But even if
there is such an engine written for Gnome or KDE, some really
ingenious "free software advocate" will slap a "must not be used with
any kind of non-GPL driver" on it and all the printer vendors will
give you the finger.

And Billg is the one that wins.

The whole Linux community is using closed-source/open-source all along
for years: Netscape. Star Office. To name a few. Why is it so hard to
accept, that at least some people or companies are willing to offer
support for their products but not with their source? I charge these
companies for my support but I have no problem with their tools. I
even buy them (and get ripped off like with Cygnus Source Navigator :-( ).

And if you really read till here: No, I'm not an M$ advocate. I use M$
products for four things: Word, Excel, Powerpoint and my finance
software. I have to use M$ because there are no alternatives for Linux
that are acceptable in a professional, cross-company environment. If I
tell a customer "I can't open that document in Star Writer", they
start laughing.

But I spent some of my earlier years in a community which was s
much like the Linux community today: The Amiga environment. And it saw
it wither and die just because of this kind of in-fighting which
programming language to use to write the Word-Killer (C or Modula)
instead of _WRITING_ the Word-Killer.

I'm using Linux since seven years now. I don't want to lose it. But
then again, Linux must grow. I'm too old to switch to Windows now. ;-)

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Augustin Vidovic) writes:

1- GPL code is the opposite of crap

No. A license doesn't automatically make good code.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael H. Warfield) writes:

   But wasn't that Xerox that had that?  Yeah, the same ones that
screwed us over with the compression patent that shot .gif images out
of the sky.  There was inovation for you.

Wrong company. You may want to check your facts before bashing.


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 02:58:45PM +0100, Jean Francois Micouleau wrote:
 
 On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
 
  If IBM, Intel, Compaq, HP, Dell, SGI and other companies would
  wholeheartedly drop their Windows support in favour of Linux, that I
  would call "a move". If HP would spent only 5% of their driver writing
  buget for Windows into Linux driver development, that I would call "a
  move". 
 
 I'm wondering if the $600 000 HP gave to VA linux and myself last year is
 only 5% of their driver budget.

 Henning, HP is supporting linux and the open source movement. They are
 paying people to port linux to the ia64 platform and the hp-pa risc.

Yes. They want to sell the IA64 and the HP-PA hardware. So it is
logically for them to fund people and companies that port the kernel
or build OS software for their hardware.

 They are supporting the open source movement by paying people like me to
 improve Samba.

Yes. They want to sell products which use this special piece of software.

I don't see HP supporting software authors to write CD-ROM burning
software for all CDROM writers just to be able to bundle Linux
software with their CDROM writers [just watching an HP commercial on
TV].

IMHO, this is no "basic change in company policy". HP and many other
companies understood that they have two ways to conduct their business
in the future: Being dependent on a company that dictates how to write
software, being forced to live with the way that company wants future
products to be and the fact that this company will always have an edge
over their competitors. Or the will support open _protocols_ like
CORBA, TCP/IP, XML and the like to keep their closed source products
working on many (especially their own) platforms and avoid the
strangle hold of a single company.

Linux is ideal for them because no company has "a grip" on the OS. 
This is good!

But is it "commitment to open source"? Or just "keeping all options
open"? Because these companies still support their products on M$. 

Most of the programs are in newer, larger and more mature versions for
Windows. Why? Did you ever try to write a non-web based GUI program
for Linux? For which Linux? Which desktop (besides using statically
linked motif applications or bare metal X11)? Which version of the
desktop? What tools do you get? How mature are the tools, especially
GUI builders and IDEs? Most developers in bigger companies are not
kernel wizards but just average run-of-the-mill-have-a-grip-on-c++
developers who code after specs.

Most companies simply use Java and leave the details to the VM. If you
write for Windows, you have an ugly and complicated API with lots of
bugs, but the API itself is stable since six (!) years.  You can write
programs that run on 95/98/ME/NT/2000 unchanged. Writing them sucks
but it is possible. For Linux to do so, you must use almost bare X11.

Don't get me wrong. I am _happy_ that there are big companies
recognizing, funding and supporting Linux. But then it is for Linux to
grow mature and recognize that these companies don't do it because
they think "Linux is cool". They do it because they think "Linux is
business. Linux is profit. Linux helps us to avoid the strangle hold
of M$" No news here. No basic direction change here. They do Windows
and anything else for exactly the same reasons.

And they don't do desktop applications besides java applications and
Web stuff.

Regards
Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [LONG RANT] Re: Linux stifles innovation...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 01:37:58PM +, Russell King wrote:

 Henning P. Schmiedehausen writes:
  But at least I would be happy if there would be a printing
  engine that is entirely open source and all the printer vendors can
  write a small, closed source stub that drives their printer over
  parallel port, ethernet or USB and give us all the features, that the
  Linux _USERS_ (and these are the people that count) want.
 
 Speaking as a Linux _USER_, if this happens, can I get said print
 engine working on my ARM machines with these closed source drivers?

 Can Alpha users get this print system working?  Can Sparc uses
 get it working?  What?  I can't?  They can't?  Well, its no good to
 me nor them.  

Maybe not. But you can use this print engine API to pay anyone to
write a driver for you. What you just said, is exactly my point. You
said:

"If a company does not write a driver which works on all hardware
 platforms in all cases and gives us the source, then it is better,
 that the company writes no drivers at all."

"If I can't force a company to write a driver for everyone, then I
 don't want to write them any driver at all."

IMHO you're like a spoiled kid: "If I can't have it, noone should have it".

 You've just made the system x86 specific.  Well done, thats a step
 backwards, not forwards.

No. Some Linux users got a driver that works as well as the drivers
for another OS. This is good for Linux. And all Linux users and
developers got an open, stable API, which is supported by big printer
vendors and enables everyone to write good drivers.

If you need a printer driver for the ARM, you're able to approach the
company XXX and either pay for an ARM specific driver (and they will
listen to you because they already have made a driver for another
Linux platform, learned that they can make money with Linux software
and have experience with driver(s) for Linux. And it will be just a
recompile most of the time).

 Ah, golly, I'll just have to throw my ARM machines away because
 we have some critical parts of the system which are closed source.

We're talking about a driver. If Company XX won't sell it to you for
your architecture, it's their right to do so. There is software that
I've written that you might want to have, too. If I chose not to sell
it to you, what do you do? You can say "company XX sucks" and buy an
equal product with an ARM driver from YY which listens to you. _THAT_
is IMHO open. Not forcing everyone to comply with your ideology.

  But even if there is such an engine written for Gnome or KDE, some
  really ingenious "free software advocate" will slap a "must not be
  used with any kind of non-GPL driver" on it...
 
 Good.  I build the stuff to work on my ARM machines.

Can you get a Legato Networker Client for Linux-ARM? Can you get one for
Linux-MIPS? Why? Because someone payed for the port.

 They don't work on ARM though, do they?  Gee, I guess ARM Ltd ought to
 stop my contract because what use is an ARM kernel without everything
 else to go with it?
 
 For me, closed source is _REALLY_ bad news.  _EXTREMELY_ bad news.
 It 100% prevents me from doing stuff.

No. It means, that for some programs, in order to have them, you have
to pay. That is fine. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. You
may, of course, chose not to pay, but then you may not be able to use
a certain program.

Look, I'm willing to pay money for the whole M$ Office Suite on
Linux. Yes.  I would give billg gladly a big chunk of my money to get
this application suite on Linux. Not a copy or a "just almost like M$
Office". But the real thing. The real "M$ Office 2k" suite for Linux.

Can I?  No. Because M$ chose not to offer its product for Linux. Bad
for me. It means, that I can not get parts of my work done on Linux.
Can I buy AutoCAD? Photoshop? Quicken? Outlook? Visio? Not look alikes
or clones or "almost as good as". But the real thing with the same
support as on Windows. I can for the Mac. Why can't I for Linux?

Because IMHO some companies shy away from the aggressive and sometime
openly hostile behaviour of the Open Source community ("If you don't
support your application on Linux/SPARC with an B/W framebuffer, you
suck. Go away") towards commercial companies.  ("If you don't support
Gnome 1.0 but just KDE 2.1, you suck. Go away"). And billg laughs and
just points the confused companies towards the "stable" and "easy to
use" M$ OS.

And the volatile APIs which are immature in some points (Font handling. 
Printer support. Color handling. Same things all the time. But displaying 
the results of your work and printing them onto paper is for many
people the most important thing. And frankly, Linux sucks here).

In your opinion, it is better, that I can't get some programs at all
than paying money for them.

In my opinion, I prefer to get it at least for i386/Linux th

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kai Henningsen) writes:

>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Henning P. Schmiedehausen)  wrote on 12.02.01 in 
><968mjv$l9t$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jan Gyselinck) writes:
>>
>> >There's not really something wrong with MX's pointing to CNAME's.  It's
>> >just that some mailservers could (can?) not handle this.  So if you want to
>> >be able to receive mail from all kinds of mailservers, don't use CNAME's
>> >for MX's.
>>
>> No. It breaks a basic assumption set in stone in RFC821. It has
>> nothing to do with mailer software.

>May I point out that RFC 821 does not mention either CNAME or MX anywhere.

RFC 974 is about the "DOMAIN NAME SYSTEM". RFC 821 mentions DOMAINS:

3.7.  DOMAINS

>So don't tell us about stuff set in stone in RFC XYZ, when it's plain  
>you've never looked at that RFC.

Says who? RFC974 is a clarification of how to interpret Domain Name
System contents in a mail context. RFC821 makes a clear statement about
Domains in section 3.7:

[...]
  Whenever domain names are used in SMTP only the official names are
  used, the use of nicknames or aliases is not allowed.
[...]

and in RFC974 it is stated:

[...]
   In addition to mail information, the servers store certain other
   types of RR's which mailers may encounter or choose to use.  These
   are: the canonical name (CNAME) RR, which simply states that the
   domain name queried for is actually an alias for another domain name,
   which is the proper, or canonical, name; [...]
[...]

In my understanding (and I assume that you're familiar with both as
you've chosen to insult me by suggesting that I've not read this
stuff), this means clearly:

"YOU MUST NOT USE AN ALIAS WHENEVER DOMAINS ARE USED IN SMTP". (RFC821)

and

"THIS NAME IS AN ALIAS FOR ANOTHER DOMAIN NAME, WHICH IS THE PROPER,
CANONICAL NAME".

This boils down for me to 

"YOU MUST NOT USE A CNAME ANYWHERE IN SMTP".

and "ANYWHERE" also states for me "in the 220 greeting".

Any further questions?

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (James Antill) writes:

>"Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> % telnet mail.bar.org smtp
>> 220 mail.foo.org ESMTP ready
>> 
>> 
>> This kills loop detection. Yes, it is done this way =%-) and it breaks
>> if done wrong.

> This is humour, yeh ?

No.

> I would be supprised if even sendmail assumed braindamage like the
>above.
> For instance something that is pretty common is...

>foo.example.com. IN A 4.4.4.4
>foo.example.com. IN MX 10 mail.example.com.
>foo.example.com. IN MX 20 backup-mx1.example.com.

>; This is really mail.example.org.
>backup-mx1.example.com.  IN A 1.2.3.4

No. This is a misconfiguration. Yes, RFC821 is a bit rusty but as far
as I know, nothing has superseded it yet. And Section 3.7 states
clearly:

  Whenever domain names are used in SMTP only the official names are
  used, the use of nicknames or aliases is not allowed.

And the 220 Message is defined as

220 

On sendmail, this is enforced by the "k" flag in the mailer definition.

>...another is to have "farms" of mail servers (the A record for the MX
>has multiple entries).
> If it "broke" as you said, then a lot of mail wouldn't be being routed.

You're correct. A lot of mail isn't routed or just routed because the
mailers believe in the "be liberal in what you accept" policy. Or
plainly non-RFC-compliant.

There is a concept behind CNAMEs just like behind IP Fragmentation and
the NT domains. Noone stated that it is a _SANE_ concept but it is now
here and we have to live with it. CNAMES ARE NOT ALIASES.

A CNAME is a reference. It states "the canonical name of "" is
podunk.org". You write it as

xxx IN  CNAME   podunk.org.

SMTP requests that you use the canonical name in the 220 greeting,
according to RFC 821. Everything else is misconfiguration.

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (James Antill) writes:

"Henning P. Schmiedehausen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 % telnet mail.bar.org smtp
 220 mail.foo.org ESMTP ready
 
 
 This kills loop detection. Yes, it is done this way =%-) and it breaks
 if done wrong.

 This is humour, yeh ?

No.

 I would be supprised if even sendmail assumed braindamage like the
above.
 For instance something that is pretty common is...

foo.example.com. IN A 4.4.4.4
foo.example.com. IN MX 10 mail.example.com.
foo.example.com. IN MX 20 backup-mx1.example.com.

; This is really mail.example.org.
backup-mx1.example.com.  IN A 1.2.3.4

No. This is a misconfiguration. Yes, RFC821 is a bit rusty but as far
as I know, nothing has superseded it yet. And Section 3.7 states
clearly:

  Whenever domain names are used in SMTP only the official names are
  used, the use of nicknames or aliases is not allowed.

And the 220 Message is defined as

220 domain

On sendmail, this is enforced by the "k" flag in the mailer definition.

...another is to have "farms" of mail servers (the A record for the MX
has multiple entries).
 If it "broke" as you said, then a lot of mail wouldn't be being routed.

You're correct. A lot of mail isn't routed or just routed because the
mailers believe in the "be liberal in what you accept" policy. Or
plainly non-RFC-compliant.

There is a concept behind CNAMEs just like behind IP Fragmentation and
the NT domains. Noone stated that it is a _SANE_ concept but it is now
here and we have to live with it. CNAMES ARE NOT ALIASES.

A CNAME is a reference. It states "the canonical name of "" is
podunk.org". You write it as

xxx IN  CNAME   podunk.org.

SMTP requests that you use the canonical name in the 220 greeting,
according to RFC 821. Everything else is misconfiguration.

    Regards
    Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kai Henningsen) writes:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Henning P. Schmiedehausen)  wrote on 12.02.01 in 
968mjv$l9t$[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jan Gyselinck) writes:

 There's not really something wrong with MX's pointing to CNAME's.  It's
 just that some mailservers could (can?) not handle this.  So if you want to
 be able to receive mail from all kinds of mailservers, don't use CNAME's
 for MX's.

 No. It breaks a basic assumption set in stone in RFC821. It has
 nothing to do with mailer software.

May I point out that RFC 821 does not mention either CNAME or MX anywhere.

RFC 974 is about the "DOMAIN NAME SYSTEM". RFC 821 mentions DOMAINS:

3.7.  DOMAINS

So don't tell us about stuff set in stone in RFC XYZ, when it's plain  
you've never looked at that RFC.

Says who? RFC974 is a clarification of how to interpret Domain Name
System contents in a mail context. RFC821 makes a clear statement about
Domains in section 3.7:

[...]
  Whenever domain names are used in SMTP only the official names are
  used, the use of nicknames or aliases is not allowed.
[...]

and in RFC974 it is stated:

[...]
   In addition to mail information, the servers store certain other
   types of RR's which mailers may encounter or choose to use.  These
   are: the canonical name (CNAME) RR, which simply states that the
   domain name queried for is actually an alias for another domain name,
   which is the proper, or canonical, name; [...]
[...]

In my understanding (and I assume that you're familiar with both as
you've chosen to insult me by suggesting that I've not read this
stuff), this means clearly:

"YOU MUST NOT USE AN ALIAS WHENEVER DOMAINS ARE USED IN SMTP". (RFC821)

and

"THIS NAME IS AN ALIAS FOR ANOTHER DOMAIN NAME, WHICH IS THE PROPER,
CANONICAL NAME".

This boils down for me to 

"YOU MUST NOT USE A CNAME ANYWHERE IN SMTP".

and "ANYWHERE" also states for me "in the 220 greeting".

Any further questions?

    Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [reiserfs-list] Re: Apparent instability of reiserfs on 2.4.1

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andi Kleen) writes:

>to the low level file system for efficient lookup (actually is all not 
>too difficult to implement, just requires very uncodefreezefriendly changes
>to nfsd) 

Well, at least I would really prefer a change for 2.4.x the sooner the
better as I will never ever want to repeat the NFS nightmare from
2.2. I prefer a working NFS on Reiser over a non working, but
codefreezed at any time. ;-)

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://vger.kernel.org/lkml/

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (H. Peter Anvin) writes:

>> In other words, you do a lookup, you start with a primary lookup
>> and then possibly a second lookup to resolve an MX or CNAME.  It's only
>> the MX that points to a CNAME that results in yet another lookup.  An
>> MX pointing to a CNAME is almost (almost, but not quite) as bad as a
>> CNAME pointing to a CNAME.
>> 

>There is no reducibility problem for MX -> CNAME, unlike the CNAME ->
>CNAME case.

>Please explain how there is any different between an CNAME or MX pointing
>to an A record in a different SOA versus an MX pointing to a CNAME
>pointing to an A record where at least one pair is local (same SOA).

CNAME is the "canonical name" of a host. Not an alias. There is good
decriptions for the problem with this in the bat book. Basically it
breaks if your mailer expects one host on the other side (mail.foo.org) 
and suddently the host reports as mail.bar.org). The sender is
allowed to assume that the name reported after the "220" greeting
matches the name in the MX. This is impossible with a CNAME:

mail.foo.org.   IN A 1.2.3.4
mail.bar.org.   IN CNAME mail.foo.org.
bar.org.IN MX 10 mail.bar.org.

% telnet mail.bar.org smtp
220 mail.foo.org ESMTP ready


This kills loop detection. Yes, it is done this way =%-) and it breaks
if done wrong.

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jan Gyselinck) writes:

>There's not really something wrong with MX's pointing to CNAME's.  It's just that 
>some mailservers could (can?) not handle this.  So if you want to be able to receive 
>mail from all kinds of mailservers, don't use CNAME's for MX's.

No. It breaks a basic assumption set in stone in RFC821. It has
nothing to do with mailer software.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (H. Peter Anvin) writes:

 In other words, you do a lookup, you start with a primary lookup
 and then possibly a second lookup to resolve an MX or CNAME.  It's only
 the MX that points to a CNAME that results in yet another lookup.  An
 MX pointing to a CNAME is almost (almost, but not quite) as bad as a
 CNAME pointing to a CNAME.
 

There is no reducibility problem for MX - CNAME, unlike the CNAME -
CNAME case.

Please explain how there is any different between an CNAME or MX pointing
to an A record in a different SOA versus an MX pointing to a CNAME
pointing to an A record where at least one pair is local (same SOA).

CNAME is the "canonical name" of a host. Not an alias. There is good
decriptions for the problem with this in the bat book. Basically it
breaks if your mailer expects one host on the other side (mail.foo.org) 
and suddently the host reports as mail.bar.org). The sender is
allowed to assume that the name reported after the "220" greeting
matches the name in the MX. This is impossible with a CNAME:

mail.foo.org.   IN A 1.2.3.4
mail.bar.org.   IN CNAME mail.foo.org.
bar.org.IN MX 10 mail.bar.org.

% telnet mail.bar.org smtp
220 mail.foo.org ESMTP ready


This kills loop detection. Yes, it is done this way =%-) and it breaks
if done wrong.

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jan Gyselinck) writes:

There's not really something wrong with MX's pointing to CNAME's.  It's just that 
some mailservers could (can?) not handle this.  So if you want to be able to receive 
mail from all kinds of mailservers, don't use CNAME's for MX's.

No. It breaks a basic assumption set in stone in RFC821. It has
nothing to do with mailer software.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matti Aarnio) writes:

>NSes and MXes must ALWAYS point to NAMEs with A//A6 records for
>them, specifically those names MUST NOT be CNAMEs.   With NSes the

NS: must not
MX: should not

...stickler for details. ;-)
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[OFF-TOPIC] sendmail (was: Re: someone knows a good sendmail mailing list ?)

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rik van Riel) writes:

>On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, osamu wrote:

>> someone knows a good sendmail mailing list ? active like this one ?

>I doubt it, if only because sendmail wouldn't be able to
>handle the load.

Why does this lie gets repeated over and over again? This is as wrong
as the again and again posted "threads is salt" quote of davem.

There are lots of badly set up sendmail sites, just because sendmail
is ubiquitous. Maybe it's because of this.

But a well set up sendmail handles almost any load that you throw at
it. I've set up sites handling an OC-3 load of E-Mail with just a few
boxes fine.

Ok, admittedly not on Linux. If this gets repeated again and again on
LKM, maybe it should read "sendmail on Linux can not handle the load" [1].

>(yeah, I know it's off-topic; but I couldn't resist this one)

Well, at least in this point, you're not enlightened. ;-)

Regards
Henning

[1] And davem maybe meant "Threads on Linux", too. =:-)
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: DNS goofups galore...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matti Aarnio) writes:

NSes and MXes must ALWAYS point to NAMEs with A//A6 records for
them, specifically those names MUST NOT be CNAMEs.   With NSes the

NS: must not
MX: should not

...stickler for details. ;-)
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: hotmail not dealing with ECN

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tony Hoyle) writes:

> These ISPs will *not* change simply because 1% of Linux users
> complain at them.  They have been contacted about this and they know
> of the problem.  I doubt they care.

Trust me, they care. Every Admin cares. They have, however, to convice
their superiors that upgrading two (three, five, twenty?) Firewall
boxes from a 99% running IOS into a newer, untested [1] version to
benefit 1% (1%? Oh, come on. 0.1% I would say) of their users from an
IETF experimental feature.

I wouldn't boot a box that runs 90 MBit/s traffic for 24/7 on such an
occasion.

You want ECN? Get DaveM to join Microsoft and push out MS Whistler
with ECN enabled and just an obscure Registry Entry to turn it
off. You will have ECN in a blink implemented everywhere.

Regards
Henning

[1] as in "inhouse tested and works". I would not trust Cisco Release
Notes on such boxes. ;-)

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: hotmail not dealing with ECN

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chris Ricker) writes:

>> If ECN is so wonderful, why doesn't anybody actually WANT to use it
>> anyway?

>Lots of people do.  Lots of other people (such as, in this case, hotmail)
>will never upgrade their software until the groundswell of complaints is
>more expensive than their perception of the cost of upgrading

Well, I guess, this is the price we must pay for having a monoculture
(a Cisco-powered) internet. If the single source of routers, switches
and network components (speak: Cisco) makes a single mistake in a
release version of their software (speak: drop ECN frames), everyone
suffers.

Cisco: If I buy a _new_ PIIX oder LDIR today, do I get an ECN capable
IOS or not? If not, will my CCNA know about this and upgrade my Box
before deploying?

Everyone I know and their brothers, that use Cisco Equipment, have a
support contract with Cisco. Why not push an "mandatory upgrade" along
this path once the ECN leaves "experimental" status.

But I definitely agree with HPA, that forcing ECN in its current state
on all users is unacceptable.

Solution that I see: 

DaveM at RedHat ships Kernels with ECN enabled per default.
RedHat ships Distributions with net.ipv4.ip_ecn = 0 in /etc/sysctl.conf

Ah, the small bliss of diversity... ;-) (And this means not, running
both flavors of Linux, Debian _and_ RedHat... ;-) )

Regards
        Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: hotmail not dealing with ECN

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tony Hoyle) writes:

 These ISPs will *not* change simply because 1% of Linux users
 complain at them.  They have been contacted about this and they know
 of the problem.  I doubt they care.

Trust me, they care. Every Admin cares. They have, however, to convice
their superiors that upgrading two (three, five, twenty?) Firewall
boxes from a 99% running IOS into a newer, untested [1] version to
benefit 1% (1%? Oh, come on. 0.1% I would say) of their users from an
IETF experimental feature.

I wouldn't boot a box that runs 90 MBit/s traffic for 24/7 on such an
occasion.

You want ECN? Get DaveM to join Microsoft and push out MS Whistler
with ECN enabled and just an obscure Registry Entry to turn it
off. You will have ECN in a blink implemented everywhere.

Regards
Henning

[1] as in "inhouse tested and works". I would not trust Cisco Release
Notes on such boxes. ;-)

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: hotmail not dealing with ECN

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chris Ricker) writes:

 If ECN is so wonderful, why doesn't anybody actually WANT to use it
 anyway?

Lots of people do.  Lots of other people (such as, in this case, hotmail)
will never upgrade their software until the groundswell of complaints is
more expensive than their perception of the cost of upgrading

Well, I guess, this is the price we must pay for having a monoculture
(a Cisco-powered) internet. If the single source of routers, switches
and network components (speak: Cisco) makes a single mistake in a
release version of their software (speak: drop ECN frames), everyone
suffers.

Cisco: If I buy a _new_ PIIX oder LDIR today, do I get an ECN capable
IOS or not? If not, will my CCNA know about this and upgrade my Box
before deploying?

Everyone I know and their brothers, that use Cisco Equipment, have a
support contract with Cisco. Why not push an "mandatory upgrade" along
this path once the ECN leaves "experimental" status.

But I definitely agree with HPA, that forcing ECN in its current state
on all users is unacceptable.

Solution that I see: 

DaveM at RedHat ships Kernels with ECN enabled per default.
RedHat ships Distributions with net.ipv4.ip_ecn = 0 in /etc/sysctl.conf

Ah, the small bliss of diversity... ;-) (And this means not, running
both flavors of Linux, Debian _and_ RedHat... ;-) )

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[little bit OT] ip _IS_ _NOT_ ifconfig and route ! (was Re: [PATCH] hashed device lookup (Does NOT meet Linus' sumission policy!))

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (David S. Miller) writes:

>   Date:   Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:00:10 -0500 (EST)
>   From: jamal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>   I think someone should just flush ifconfig down some toilet. a wrapper
>   around "ip" to to give the same look and feel as ifconfig would be a good
>   thing so that some stupid program that depends on ifconfig look and feel
>   would be a good start.

>I could not agree more.  This reminds me to do something I could not
>justify before, making netlink be enabled in the kernel and
>non-configurable.

The fact there there are no man pages, no backward compatibility and
no information for people coming from other unixes (and pretty much
everything else _has_ ifconfig and friends), that iproute does not
work with older kernels, that everyone that reads the docs and looks
for ifconfig and that booting another kernel completely breaks your ip
configuration (which is, in the times of co-located, headless servers
some 3,000 miles away somehow a concern to administrators and users)
should IMNSVHO count at least a little towards keeping the older
tools.

As long as "man ip" on my machines returns "ip(7) - ip - Linux IPv4
protocol implementation", using "ip" exclusively instead of ifconfig
and route is IMHO not an option for anyone else than bleeding edge
hackers and linux gurus.

ip is an ultra-powerful command for the linux ip routing
subsystem. But at least IMHO it introduces so many new and different
concepts that there should be an "ip_lite" config command that at
least related semantically to the ifconfig/route/arp combo, so that
you can tell newbies (and I consider in this case people with 10+
years of Solaris experience as "linux routing command newbies") that

ifconfig eth0 > ip link show eth0

and so on. Give a small command with a small man page for these
"normal" cases and give all-powerful "ip" for all the cool, advanced
stuff.

Maybe the major distribution vendors should pay a decent technical
writer to work with Alexey to whip up man pages for these tools. There
are none in the iproute-current package (I looked) which contains all
the informations in an unix-compatible format. 

And yes, I don't consider HTML, tex, texinfo or info or (horrors) PS
and PDF format "decent documentation", Unix-style wise. At least as
long as we don't have a man command that understands HTML like Solaris
man does.

yes, it _is_ cool to type "ip route show" and pretend to be on level
with Cisco. But where is the documentation to _parse_ the displayed
information aside from reading lots of mailing list articles and code?
And don't tell me it's in the docs in the package. There is a
reference with at best terse examples. 

To quote a randomly picked part (p.25):

--- cut ---
scope SCOPE_VAL

- scope of the destinations covered by the route prefix. SCOPE_VAL may
  be a number or a string from the file /etc/iproute2/rt_scopes. If
  this parameter is omitted, ip assumes scope global for all gatewayed
  unicast routes, scope link for direct unicast routes and broadcasts
  and scope host for local routes.

--- cut ---

% ip route show
192.168.2.4 dev eth0  scope link 
192.168.2.0/24 dev eth0  proto kernel  scope link  src 192.168.2.4 
127.0.0.0/8 dev lo  scope link 
default via 192.168.2.1 dev eth0 

fine. Why is the last route (which is IMHO a gatewayed unicast route)
not

0.0.0.0/0 vial 192.168.2.1 dev eth0 scope global

?

In fact it behaves like this:

% ip route show scope global
default via 192.168.2.1 dev eth0 

I didn't find any "the default route is displayed different and scope
global is normally omitted" in the documentation. And the list goes
on.

And, please, convert all this "link" "route" "show" with abreviations
and abiguities into either getopt "-l" "-r" "s" or long_getopts
"--link" "--route" "--show" command line options. Why? Easy: consider

link == "-t link"   and show == "-s"

then

"ip -t link -s"  yields the same result as "ip -s -t link"

but

% ip link show
1: lo:  mtu 3924 qdisc noqueue 
link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
2: eth0:  mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast qlen 100
link/ether 00:50:04:48:b9:f0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
% ip show link
Object "show" is unknown, try "ip help".

any further questions? If you write scripts where you push your
arguments on a stack and then do a " join arguments into line, execute
line", having position independend argument order is a clear win over
every syntactic sugar. But then again, it is a real world use.

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[little bit OT] ip _IS_ _NOT_ ifconfig and route ! (was Re: [PATCH] hashed device lookup (Does NOT meet Linus' sumission policy!))

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (David S. Miller) writes:

   Date:   Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:00:10 -0500 (EST)
   From: jamal [EMAIL PROTECTED]

   I think someone should just flush ifconfig down some toilet. a wrapper
   around "ip" to to give the same look and feel as ifconfig would be a good
   thing so that some stupid program that depends on ifconfig look and feel
   would be a good start.

I could not agree more.  This reminds me to do something I could not
justify before, making netlink be enabled in the kernel and
non-configurable.

The fact there there are no man pages, no backward compatibility and
no information for people coming from other unixes (and pretty much
everything else _has_ ifconfig and friends), that iproute does not
work with older kernels, that everyone that reads the docs and looks
for ifconfig and that booting another kernel completely breaks your ip
configuration (which is, in the times of co-located, headless servers
some 3,000 miles away somehow a concern to administrators and users)
should IMNSVHO count at least a little towards keeping the older
tools.

As long as "man ip" on my machines returns "ip(7) - ip - Linux IPv4
protocol implementation", using "ip" exclusively instead of ifconfig
and route is IMHO not an option for anyone else than bleeding edge
hackers and linux gurus.

ip is an ultra-powerful command for the linux ip routing
subsystem. But at least IMHO it introduces so many new and different
concepts that there should be an "ip_lite" config command that at
least related semantically to the ifconfig/route/arp combo, so that
you can tell newbies (and I consider in this case people with 10+
years of Solaris experience as "linux routing command newbies") that

ifconfig eth0  ip link show eth0

and so on. Give a small command with a small man page for these
"normal" cases and give all-powerful "ip" for all the cool, advanced
stuff.

Maybe the major distribution vendors should pay a decent technical
writer to work with Alexey to whip up man pages for these tools. There
are none in the iproute-current package (I looked) which contains all
the informations in an unix-compatible format. 

And yes, I don't consider HTML, tex, texinfo or info or (horrors) PS
and PDF format "decent documentation", Unix-style wise. At least as
long as we don't have a man command that understands HTML like Solaris
man does.

yes, it _is_ cool to type "ip route show" and pretend to be on level
with Cisco. But where is the documentation to _parse_ the displayed
information aside from reading lots of mailing list articles and code?
And don't tell me it's in the docs in the package. There is a
reference with at best terse examples. 

To quote a randomly picked part (p.25):

--- cut ---
scope SCOPE_VAL

- scope of the destinations covered by the route prefix. SCOPE_VAL may
  be a number or a string from the file /etc/iproute2/rt_scopes. If
  this parameter is omitted, ip assumes scope global for all gatewayed
  unicast routes, scope link for direct unicast routes and broadcasts
  and scope host for local routes.

--- cut ---

% ip route show
192.168.2.4 dev eth0  scope link 
192.168.2.0/24 dev eth0  proto kernel  scope link  src 192.168.2.4 
127.0.0.0/8 dev lo  scope link 
default via 192.168.2.1 dev eth0 

fine. Why is the last route (which is IMHO a gatewayed unicast route)
not

0.0.0.0/0 vial 192.168.2.1 dev eth0 scope global

?

In fact it behaves like this:

% ip route show scope global
default via 192.168.2.1 dev eth0 

I didn't find any "the default route is displayed different and scope
global is normally omitted" in the documentation. And the list goes
on.

And, please, convert all this "link" "route" "show" with abreviations
and abiguities into either getopt "-l" "-r" "s" or long_getopts
"--link" "--route" "--show" command line options. Why? Easy: consider

link == "-t link"   and show == "-s"

then

"ip -t link -s"  yields the same result as "ip -s -t link"

but

% ip link show
1: lo: LOOPBACK,UP mtu 3924 qdisc noqueue 
link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
2: eth0: BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast qlen 100
link/ether 00:50:04:48:b9:f0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
% ip show link
Object "show" is unknown, try "ip help".

any further questions? If you write scripts where you push your
arguments on a stack and then do a " join arguments into line, execute
line", having position independend argument order is a clear win over
every syntactic sugar. But then again, it is a real world use.

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Fasttrak100 questions...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

No.

If I modify the kernel or any other GPL software for my personal use
and give it to no one, I am _not at all_ forced to make it public.

Only if I distribute a compiled kernel or any other program under GPL,
then I must give also the sources on request (!) and may not put any
restrictions on your redistribution of these sources. Only thing that
you must obey is again the GPL.

I use heavily patched kernels with lots of inhouse-stuff on a regular
base for my inhouse use and there is _no_ way for you to even get a
glimpse at it.  I don't give this to anyone, it's all just my personal
stuff.

You can't force me to give you a copy of my blafoo driver until I
chose to either release it to the public in which case I must put it
under GPL as it contains GPLed code or distribute a binary version to
a customer, which then in turn has the right to request the source
from me and (after he got it, because I am bound by GPL to give it to
him), distribute it freely as this right is granted to him by GPL.

I am even allowed to erase my sources without making them ever public.

Please read the GPL:

--- cut ---
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope.  The act of
running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program
--- cut ---

I don't distribute the software. I just run it.

--- cut ---
  2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion
of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and
distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1
above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:
--- cut ---

I chose not to copy and distribute these modified programs which is
perfectly covered by my license which I got when obtaining the
sources.

Anything else would mean that I can send E-Mail to Linus Torvalds
every five minutes and request a verbatim copy of his current hacking
kernel tree as it is under GPL, which he is the forced to give to me
because of the GPL. This would be utter nonsense.

Regards
Henning


On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 11:53:59AM -0800, Dr. Kelsey Hudson wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> 
> > No, it does not. Distributing does. You will never get this right. You
> > can compile into your kernel anything you like as long as you don't
> > give it away.
> 
> You are wrong: If you modify the kernel you have to make it available for
> anyone who wishes to use it; that's also in the GPL. You can't add stuff
> to it and then not distribute it, that's in violation.
> 
>  Kelsey Hudson   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>  Software Engineer
>  Compendium Technologies, Inc   (619) 725-0771
> ----------- 

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Fasttrak100 questions...

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

No.

If I modify the kernel or any other GPL software for my personal use
and give it to no one, I am _not at all_ forced to make it public.

Only if I distribute a compiled kernel or any other program under GPL,
then I must give also the sources on request (!) and may not put any
restrictions on your redistribution of these sources. Only thing that
you must obey is again the GPL.

I use heavily patched kernels with lots of inhouse-stuff on a regular
base for my inhouse use and there is _no_ way for you to even get a
glimpse at it.  I don't give this to anyone, it's all just my personal
stuff.

You can't force me to give you a copy of my blafoo driver until I
chose to either release it to the public in which case I must put it
under GPL as it contains GPLed code or distribute a binary version to
a customer, which then in turn has the right to request the source
from me and (after he got it, because I am bound by GPL to give it to
him), distribute it freely as this right is granted to him by GPL.

I am even allowed to erase my sources without making them ever public.

Please read the GPL:

--- cut ---
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope.  The act of
running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program
--- cut ---

I don't distribute the software. I just run it.

--- cut ---
  2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion
of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and
distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1
above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:
--- cut ---

I chose not to copy and distribute these modified programs which is
perfectly covered by my license which I got when obtaining the
sources.

Anything else would mean that I can send E-Mail to Linus Torvalds
every five minutes and request a verbatim copy of his current hacking
kernel tree as it is under GPL, which he is the forced to give to me
because of the GPL. This would be utter nonsense.

Regards
Henning


On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 11:53:59AM -0800, Dr. Kelsey Hudson wrote:
 On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
 
  No, it does not. Distributing does. You will never get this right. You
  can compile into your kernel anything you like as long as you don't
  give it away.
 
 You are wrong: If you modify the kernel you have to make it available for
 anyone who wishes to use it; that's also in the GPL. You can't add stuff
 to it and then not distribute it, that's in violation.
 
  Kelsey Hudson   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Software Engineer
  Compendium Technologies, Inc   (619) 725-0771
 --- 

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Fasttrak100 questions...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andre Hedrick) writes:

>NO!

>Doing so VIOLATES the terms and agreement that you obtained the BINARY
>Soft-Raid Engine and the GPL terms of the kernel.

>On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, James Lamanna wrote:
[...]
>> The question is, is there a way to compile this module into the kernel
>> so that it will automatically detect the card? A simple linking of the
>> module into the scsi library by editing the Makefile doesn't seem to do
>> it. It doesn't detect the drives if I boot off of a floppy with this
>> kernel on it.
[...]

No, it does not. Distributing does. You will never get this right. You
can compile into your kernel anything you like as long as you don't
give it away.

Regards
        Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Fasttrak100 questions...

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andre Hedrick) writes:

NO!

Doing so VIOLATES the terms and agreement that you obtained the BINARY
Soft-Raid Engine and the GPL terms of the kernel.

On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, James Lamanna wrote:
[...]
 The question is, is there a way to compile this module into the kernel
 so that it will automatically detect the card? A simple linking of the
 module into the scsi library by editing the Makefile doesn't seem to do
 it. It doesn't detect the drives if I boot off of a floppy with this
 kernel on it.
[...]

No, it does not. Distributing does. You will never get this right. You
can compile into your kernel anything you like as long as you don't
give it away.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

>I guess all customers are idiots then, since about 100+ people who were
>using our release downloaded it, and had these problems with sendmail.  This
>disconnect of yours is about what I would expect from someone in a University.
>Some of us don't have the luxury of being able to pontificate in a Univ
>environment -- we have to make a living from Linux -- and provide payroll
>for the people on this list who actually do the core work on Linux.  

I earn a living with building and deploying Internet system on a
variety of (Unix-based) platforms. Each one has its quirks and to
build successful servers, you have to know about them. I never ever
deployed a sendmail.cf as it came from the vendor or the source
package. I adjust these config files to the customers' need.

[...]

>somewhere not being deployed.  It's the commercialization effort that made
>Linux a household word.  NT and NetWare servers don't stop forwarding 

THERE IS NO SUCH EFFORT. This list is not your general-purpose Linux
support list.

If you need support for a distribution, get it from the vendor. If you
make a distribution, that deploys a software, give this support or buy
it from people who _know_ and sell it to your customers.

But this list is not for your "I don't have a clue" efforts. Deploying
a distribution is major grunt work that most customers will never see.

I e.g. deploy a highly customized version of RedHat on the servers
that I build. Most of my customers ask a second and a third time why I
don't simply deploy the distribution out of the box like all the
consultants that they had before. They stop asking when their old
boxes are cracked open or fail under load and mine doesn't. If you
deploy a general purpose distribution or OS for a very special
application, then you simply use the wrong tool.

>emails when the load average gets too high -- they just work out of the
>box, and hopefully, no so will Linux (our distribution does now since 
>this problem in fixed).

Your distribution will simply have "RefuseLA" and "QueueLA" higher
than the sendmail defaults. This is not the solution to your problem
but moves it simply to a different point.

You simply don't understand, that a cluster mail system that handles
20,000,000 mailboxes and 200,000,000 mails per day must be configured
different than the mail system on a high traffic web server, that
simply sends out two mails per day from the logfile rotation. Both
machines may have a load average way beyond a desktop system that
peaks at 0.05 on normal usage.

>Now we know that sendmail has problems on Linux based on the this load
>average interpretation, which we would not have known if someone had 
>not raised the issue.  

Linux has no problem. Some sites that run Linux have a problem because
they're misconfigured.

And if you ship a distribution but want to load off the support for
this distribution on Linux-Kernel, you're definitely in for a
surprise. TANSTAAFL, you know.

    Regards
    Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Fwd: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue]

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dominik Kubla) writes:

>I can do better! I had a smart ass trying to backup his harddrives
>using email, no less than 2Gig!

So what? Get enough spool space in /var/spool/mqueue and a platform
with 64 bit file support and it works just fine. I have some boxes
where the users send 100+ MByte mails on a regular base. Once you beat
the procmail into submission, this simply works.

sendmail is one of the very best pieces of free multi-platform
software that is available. I really admire the people that wrote
it. Kudos to everyone that wrote on this software. All hail Eric
Allman. ;-)

It is mean, tough, hard to understand and configure but definitely
industrial strength, proven and reliable. Something you can't say of
all this sissy "free" software around today.

And once you get a hang of "left side, right side" rules, you can read
sendmail.cf like normal text. The idea of using an algorithmic concept
for a config file still shines after twenty years of development. So
much for "GUIs".

sendmail rocks
    Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard A Nelson) writes:

>I have several boxen running sendmail with fair to moderate loading -
>they even occasionally don't accept mail... and thats good, as it lets
>the system catch up with its current load.  As soon as things stabalize,
>sendmail again accepts connections - you *do* have MX entries don't you?

% dig timpanogas.com mx
[...]
timpanogas.com. 1D IN MX10 mail.timpanogas.com.


No. He _is_ clueless with a big mouth as the regular readers of LKM
already know.

"and it's all either the fault of other people or the kernel". 

Regards
Henning




-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Fwd: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue]

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Claus Assmann) writes:

>> Sending a 50 MB file is OK here. So it's not a TCP/IP bug. 

>Ok, hopefully this reaches everyone who has been "involved"
>by Jeff into this "problem".

So it is _once_ _again_ a Jeff "I have no clue but I know Linux-Kernel
list is cheaper than tech support or a real admin, but my real problem
sits on the chair in front of the display" Merkey problem.

This makes me puke. Again and again.

Regards
        Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Fwd: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue]

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

>I did Dick.  The config is fine.  The daemon is also fine and running. 
>What's really weird is that even if I do a "sendmail -v -q" command
>(which should force the queue to flush) it still doesn't. 

O Timeout.ident=0s
O Timeout.initial=30s (these are the ninieties / 21st century)

Get someone that really has an idea about sendmail. 

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:


>We got to the bottom of the sendmail problem.  The line:

> -O QueueLA=20 

>and

> -O RefuseLA=18

>Need to be cranked up in sendmail.cf to something high since the
>background VM on a very busy Linux box seems to exceed this which causes
>large emails to get stuck in the /var/spool/mqueue directory for long
>periods of time.  Since vger is getting hammered with FTP all the time,
>and is rarely idle.  This also explains what Richard was seeing with VM
>thrashing in a box with low memory.  

So what? This is written in the documentation of the program? You do read
documentation, do you?

>The problem of dropping connections on 2.4 was related to the O RefuseLA
>settings.  The defaults  in the RedHat, Suse, and OpenLinux RPMs are
>clearly set too low for modern Linux kernels.  You may want them cranked
>up to 100 or something if you want sendmail to always work.  

These settings are for single user / small user numbers boxes.

If you're using an out of the vendor box distribution configuration
for a high traffic server, you're nuts. Or ignorant. Or dumb. Or your
consultant is an idiot.

Regards
        Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Fwd: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue]

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

>The sendmail folks are claiming that the TCPIP stack in Linux is broken,
>which is what they claim is causing problems on sendmail on Linux
>platforms.  Before anyone says, "don't use that piece of shit sendmail,
>use qmail instead", perhaps we should look at this problem and refute
>these statements -- I think that sendmail is causing this problem.  The
>version is sendmail 8.9.3

>I can reproduce this bug on RH6.2, RH7.0, Caldera 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4,
>Suse 6.X versions, and any of these distributions with the following
>kernels.   

>2.2.14, 2.2.16, 2.2.17, 2.2.18, 2.4.0 (all).  What happens is that
>sendmail fails to forward mails with any attachments larger than 400K,
>and they just sit in the /var/spool/mqueue directory for up to a week,
>and eventually get delivered.

Jeff,

I run about three dozen sendmail server boxes (8.9.3 to 8.11.1) on all
these platforms and each one of these boxes transfer 1,000,000+ Mails
per week (yes, this is one million).

There is _no_ _such_ _bug_. Maybe you get bitten by some bogus traffic
shapers (you did read the report from Wietse, didn't you). If there
would be such a bug, I believe, that any of the 10,000+ Customers
would start complaining.

But there is no problem with mails in any size and sendmail on Linux.

And I'm pretty much annoyed that you try to use this list not as a
kernel but a general linux-support list, because you drag every single
problem that may be far out related to a kernel, because it runs on a
kernel into this list.

Pay some $$$ for professional tech support. And use this list as a
kernel development list. Not some "I have no idea but I am a Netware
buff that has some money, so you have to listen to me or I will strike
you with my anger" rant list.

End of discussion
    Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:


We got to the bottom of the sendmail problem.  The line:

 -O QueueLA=20 

and

 -O RefuseLA=18

Need to be cranked up in sendmail.cf to something high since the
background VM on a very busy Linux box seems to exceed this which causes
large emails to get stuck in the /var/spool/mqueue directory for long
periods of time.  Since vger is getting hammered with FTP all the time,
and is rarely idle.  This also explains what Richard was seeing with VM
thrashing in a box with low memory.  

So what? This is written in the documentation of the program? You do read
documentation, do you?

The problem of dropping connections on 2.4 was related to the O RefuseLA
settings.  The defaults  in the RedHat, Suse, and OpenLinux RPMs are
clearly set too low for modern Linux kernels.  You may want them cranked
up to 100 or something if you want sendmail to always work.  

These settings are for single user / small user numbers boxes.

If you're using an out of the vendor box distribution configuration
for a high traffic server, you're nuts. Or ignorant. Or dumb. Or your
consultant is an idiot.

Regards
Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Fwd: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue]

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

The sendmail folks are claiming that the TCPIP stack in Linux is broken,
which is what they claim is causing problems on sendmail on Linux
platforms.  Before anyone says, "don't use that piece of shit sendmail,
use qmail instead", perhaps we should look at this problem and refute
these statements -- I think that sendmail is causing this problem.  The
version is sendmail 8.9.3

I can reproduce this bug on RH6.2, RH7.0, Caldera 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4,
Suse 6.X versions, and any of these distributions with the following
kernels.   

2.2.14, 2.2.16, 2.2.17, 2.2.18, 2.4.0 (all).  What happens is that
sendmail fails to forward mails with any attachments larger than 400K,
and they just sit in the /var/spool/mqueue directory for up to a week,
and eventually get delivered.

Jeff,

I run about three dozen sendmail server boxes (8.9.3 to 8.11.1) on all
these platforms and each one of these boxes transfer 1,000,000+ Mails
per week (yes, this is one million).

There is _no_ _such_ _bug_. Maybe you get bitten by some bogus traffic
shapers (you did read the report from Wietse, didn't you). If there
would be such a bug, I believe, that any of the 10,000+ Customers
would start complaining.

But there is no problem with mails in any size and sendmail on Linux.

And I'm pretty much annoyed that you try to use this list not as a
kernel but a general linux-support list, because you drag every single
problem that may be far out related to a kernel, because it runs on a
kernel into this list.

Pay some $$$ for professional tech support. And use this list as a
kernel development list. Not some "I have no idea but I am a Netware
buff that has some money, so you have to listen to me or I will strike
you with my anger" rant list.

End of discussion
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard A Nelson) writes:

I have several boxen running sendmail with fair to moderate loading -
they even occasionally don't accept mail... and thats good, as it lets
the system catch up with its current load.  As soon as things stabalize,
sendmail again accepts connections - you *do* have MX entries don't you?

% dig timpanogas.com mx
[...]
timpanogas.com. 1D IN MX10 mail.timpanogas.com.


No. He _is_ clueless with a big mouth as the regular readers of LKM
already know.

"and it's all either the fault of other people or the kernel". 

Regards
Henning




-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: sendmail fails to deliver mail with attachments in /var/spool/mqueue

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

I guess all customers are idiots then, since about 100+ people who were
using our release downloaded it, and had these problems with sendmail.  This
disconnect of yours is about what I would expect from someone in a University.
Some of us don't have the luxury of being able to pontificate in a Univ
environment -- we have to make a living from Linux -- and provide payroll
for the people on this list who actually do the core work on Linux.  

I earn a living with building and deploying Internet system on a
variety of (Unix-based) platforms. Each one has its quirks and to
build successful servers, you have to know about them. I never ever
deployed a sendmail.cf as it came from the vendor or the source
package. I adjust these config files to the customers' need.

[...]

somewhere not being deployed.  It's the commercialization effort that made
Linux a household word.  NT and NetWare servers don't stop forwarding 

THERE IS NO SUCH EFFORT. This list is not your general-purpose Linux
support list.

If you need support for a distribution, get it from the vendor. If you
make a distribution, that deploys a software, give this support or buy
it from people who _know_ and sell it to your customers.

But this list is not for your "I don't have a clue" efforts. Deploying
a distribution is major grunt work that most customers will never see.

I e.g. deploy a highly customized version of RedHat on the servers
that I build. Most of my customers ask a second and a third time why I
don't simply deploy the distribution out of the box like all the
consultants that they had before. They stop asking when their old
boxes are cracked open or fail under load and mine doesn't. If you
deploy a general purpose distribution or OS for a very special
application, then you simply use the wrong tool.

emails when the load average gets too high -- they just work out of the
box, and hopefully, no so will Linux (our distribution does now since 
this problem in fixed).

Your distribution will simply have "RefuseLA" and "QueueLA" higher
than the sendmail defaults. This is not the solution to your problem
but moves it simply to a different point.

You simply don't understand, that a cluster mail system that handles
20,000,000 mailboxes and 200,000,000 mails per day must be configured
different than the mail system on a high traffic web server, that
simply sends out two mails per day from the logfile rotation. Both
machines may have a load average way beyond a desktop system that
peaks at 0.05 on normal usage.

Now we know that sendmail has problems on Linux based on the this load
average interpretation, which we would not have known if someone had 
not raised the issue.  

Linux has no problem. Some sites that run Linux have a problem because
they're misconfigured.

And if you ship a distribution but want to load off the support for
this distribution on Linux-Kernel, you're definitely in for a
surprise. TANSTAAFL, you know.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[2.2.18pre17 OOPS Report] Linux' musical taste (ide-cdrom / autofs related) (Repost)

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

ndler
Kernel panic: Attempted to kill the idle task!
In swapper task - not syncing

Any ideas?

Regards
        Henning

[1] Rational Youth, Cold war night life :-)


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[2.2.18pre17 OOPS Report] Linux' musical taste (ide-cdrom / autofs related) (Repost)

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

 c6e42800  c6e42850  c02b5198 0258 c891845d 
   c02b5270 0012 c89183ec  c891896e c02b5270 c02b5270 c02b5270 
Call Trace: [c0181723] [c010a4d6] [c010a28f] [c010a5f8] [c010a2d0] 
[c0107b15] [c0106000] 
   [c0107b38] [c0109224] [c0106000] [c010607b] [c0106000] [c0100175] 
Code: 83 78 0c 00 0f 85 f2 03 00 00 8b 84 24 88 00 00 00 8a 08 80 
Aiee, killing interrupt handler
Kernel panic: Attempted to kill the idle task!
In swapper task - not syncing

Any ideas?

Regards
Henning

[1] Rational Youth, Cold war night life :-)


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Topic for discussion: OS Design

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dwayne C . Litzenberger) writes:

You contradict yourself:

[...]

> 3. Modules can very easily crash the whole kernel.  This is because
> each module does not get to run in its own protected memory space, as
> it would i= n a well-designed microkernel.

[...]

> very elegant operating systems, namely the Amiga's exec.library and
> QNX's Neutrino (I'm sure you can name others), used microkernels, and
> they were b= oth *very* efficient.  However, there are some drawbacks
> to microkernels that h= ave

[...]

The AmigaOS (as I remember it from my past days) was fast because it
had no memory protection between user and kernel space at all. So you
could simply pass around message pointers without copying any data
from kernel to user space.

Yeah. Cool. Fast. Crashed like hell all the time you made one false
move. 

Please, go and play with the other CS undergrads on Hurd. Or climb a
tree.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Topic for discussion: OS Design

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dwayne C . Litzenberger) writes:

You contradict yourself:

[...]

 3. Modules can very easily crash the whole kernel.  This is because
 each module does not get to run in its own protected memory space, as
 it would i= n a well-designed microkernel.

[...]

 very elegant operating systems, namely the Amiga's exec.library and
 QNX's Neutrino (I'm sure you can name others), used microkernels, and
 they were b= oth *very* efficient.  However, there are some drawbacks
 to microkernels that h= ave

[...]

The AmigaOS (as I remember it from my past days) was fast because it
had no memory protection between user and kernel space at all. So you
could simply pass around message pointers without copying any data
from kernel to user space.

Yeah. Cool. Fast. Crashed like hell all the time you made one false
move. 

Please, go and play with the other CS undergrads on Hurd. Or climb a
tree.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Why does everyone hate gcc 2.95?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jamie Lokier) writes:

>Alexander Viro wrote:
>> ITYM "cute". As in "cute dancing paperclip". As colourized ls.

>Hey, colour ls is _useful_!

Use white background Xterm. Come again?

First thing I do on _all_ RH installations is "rm /etc/profile.d/colorls*"

One of the biggest mistakes RH ever did was happily jumping off _that_
cliff to follow SuSE.

Regards
        Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Why does everyone hate gcc 2.95?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jamie Lokier) writes:

Alexander Viro wrote:
 ITYM "cute". As in "cute dancing paperclip". As colourized ls.

Hey, colour ls is _useful_!

Use white background Xterm. Come again?

First thing I do on _all_ RH installations is "rm /etc/profile.d/colorls*"

One of the biggest mistakes RH ever did was happily jumping off _that_
cliff to follow SuSE.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux 2.2.18pre9

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alan Cox) writes:


>Resynchronize the USB stuff and starting bringing the ARM into line

>2.2.18pre9
[...]
>o  NFSv3 support and NFS updates   (Trond Myklebust and co)

Biggest understatement this side of Linux 2.4. :-) Cool. Will test.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Availability of kdb

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

[ Jeff V. Merkey, super man ]

Huh. Once again, none of your facts is straight or correct:


>Famous double YY's of history:

>Good:

[...]
>Albert Einstein


--- cut ---
http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/einbrain.htm

Was Einstein's Brain Different? 

Of course it was-people's brains are as different as their faces. In
his lifetime many wondered if there was anything especially different
in Einstein's. He insisted that on his death his brain be made
available for research. When Einstein died in 1955, pathologist Thomas
Harvey quickly preserved the brain and made samples and sections. He
reported that he could see nothing unusual. The variations were within
the range of normal human variations. There the matter rested until
1999. Inspecting samples that Harvey had carefully preserved, Sandra
F. Witelson and colleagues discovered that Einstein's brain lacked a
particular small wrinkle (the parietal operculum) that most people
have. Perhaps in compensation, other regions on each side were a bit
enlarged-the inferior parietal lobes. These regions are known to have
something to do with visual imagery and mathematical thinking. Thus
Einstein was apparently better equipped than most people for a certain
type of thinking. Yet others of his day were probably at least as well
equipped -Henri Poincaré and David Hilbert, for example, were
formidable visual and mathematical thinkers, both were on the trail of
relativity, yet Einstein got far ahead of them. What he did with his
brain depended on the nurturing of family and friends, a solid German
and Swiss education, and his own bold personality.
--- cut ---

Can't read nothing about "Double-YY" and "third brain" here. 

BTW: The "frequency" is about 1 in 1000 men, not one in 30 million.
(http://www.aaa.dk/turner/engelsk/Xyyen.htm)

Regards
Henning (married to a M.D.)

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Availability of kdb

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

>They are bad because they cost people money that could be spent more
>productively in other areas due to the lengthening of the development

You still miss the point.

Most kernel developers don't give a damn about money. If you're in
kernel development for money, you're in the wrong game. If you want to
"weed out Linux" from "corporate America", remember

a) this is a free world after all

b) you came to Linux, not Linux to you

c) there is still "corporate France", "corporate Germany", "corporate China"
   to "weed out" "corporate America" once you made a wrong decision. 
   see also "Novell, Inc., Osborne, Inc., Commodore, Inc., Atari, Inc." 
   Why do you think that Microsoft is hiring a "Product Manager Linux". They
   sure as hell won't miss such a decision by accident.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Fwd: Client Server NEWS FLASH: Novell Plans To Can 60% Over Time]

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

>Herr Henning,

It's my first name, you know...

>friends in Utah who can join it and make new lives out of it since this
>will give them the ability to slowly transition towards assimilation by
>the Linux World).

Wasn't this the MANOS world? Oh, I forgot we want to let the industry
decide.

You were the one that announced that "contest". Maybe at least some of
the layoff are a result of this. Did you ever thought about this?

Regards
    Henning


>Jeff 


>"Henning P. Schmiedehausen" wrote:
>> 
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:
>> 
>> >The other reason I am withdrawing NDS on Linux is to staunch the flow of
>> >blood from Novell's jugular and prevent Microsoft from snatching it up
>> >and using it to kill Novell.  Just in case folks don't understand, the
>> 
>> Aren't you the guy that announced the "convert 1,000,000 NetWare Servers
>> to Linux" contest quite a while ago? I think I should go, find and
>> repost this "announcement". Weren't there even prices announced?
>> 
>> You first tried to "get the life blood" from Novell and now refocus to
>> "stop the flow of blood"? What is this? Propaganda or sensible company
>> politics?
>> 
>> Maybe you _should_ stop drinking and posting.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Henning
>> 
>> --
>> Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
>> INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
>> -
>> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>> the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>-
>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Withdrawl of Open Source NDS Project/NTFS/M2FS for Linux

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

>> Yes, it seems so. So you're telling us that this entire thread is joke on
>> your part? If not, then please show me the joke above or, for the future,
>> mark your "jokes" somehow in the text so that dumbsticks like myself 
>can
>> uderstand the jokes. Thank you.
>> 

>Get off my ass.

Why do you old people always have to get personal?

Regards
            Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: zero-copy TCP

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:



>Linus Torvalds wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Basically, only TCP and UDP really matter. Decnet, IPX, etc don't really
>> make a big selling point any more.
>> 
>> 

>Linus,

>IPX is a really good LAN protocol (but totally sucks for internet).  A
>full blown NCP server in-kernel that's toughtly coupled to the page
>cache running over IPX would make flames shoot out of the back of a
>Linux server, and make NT like look an old lady hobbling down the
>street.  There's no need to configure client addresses with it, and for
>file and print, it's the best.

And it would be a good bit of necrophilia, too.

Jeff, Netware is dead. Please leave it there. IP won. The number of
new Netware Installations (as compared to existing or just upgrades)
is close (really close) to nil.

    Regards
    Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: zero-copy TCP

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:



Linus Torvalds wrote:
 
 
 
 Basically, only TCP and UDP really matter. Decnet, IPX, etc don't really
 make a big selling point any more.
 
 

Linus,

IPX is a really good LAN protocol (but totally sucks for internet).  A
full blown NCP server in-kernel that's toughtly coupled to the page
cache running over IPX would make flames shoot out of the back of a
Linux server, and make NT like look an old lady hobbling down the
street.  There's no need to configure client addresses with it, and for
file and print, it's the best.

And it would be a good bit of necrophilia, too.

Jeff, Netware is dead. Please leave it there. IP won. The number of
new Netware Installations (as compared to existing or just upgrades)
is close (really close) to nil.

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Fwd: Client Server NEWS FLASH: Novell Plans To Can 60% Over Time]

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:

Herr Henning,

It's my first name, you know...

friends in Utah who can join it and make new lives out of it since this
will give them the ability to slowly transition towards assimilation by
the Linux World).

Wasn't this the MANOS world? Oh, I forgot we want to let the industry
decide.

You were the one that announced that "contest". Maybe at least some of
the layoff are a result of this. Did you ever thought about this?

Regards
Henning


Jeff 


"Henning P. Schmiedehausen" wrote:
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff V. Merkey) writes:
 
 The other reason I am withdrawing NDS on Linux is to staunch the flow of
 blood from Novell's jugular and prevent Microsoft from snatching it up
 and using it to kill Novell.  Just in case folks don't understand, the
 
 Aren't you the guy that announced the "convert 1,000,000 NetWare Servers
 to Linux" contest quite a while ago? I think I should go, find and
 repost this "announcement". Weren't there even prices announced?
 
 You first tried to "get the life blood" from Novell and now refocus to
 "stop the flow of blood"? What is this? Propaganda or sensible company
 politics?
 
 Maybe you _should_ stop drinking and posting.
 
 Regards
     Henning
 
 --
 Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
 INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
 -
 To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
 the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[RAPIDLY MOVING OFF-TOPIC] GPL and binary only drivers [once again] [was: Re: [ANNOUNCE] Withdrawl of Open Source NDS Project/NTFS/M2FS forLinux]

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

Hi,

On Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 12:18:10PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> > I'm sure that once the FSF is willing to step up, there will be lots
> > of supporters and sponsors to finance this. 
> 
> Far smaller companies have _already_ got away with not only violating the 
> Linux kernel's GPL, but blatantly encouraging their customers to do so.
> 
> Why should we believe that anyone's actually going to pursue one as large 
> as Microsoft?
> 
> See http://www.m-sys.com/files/drivers/doc/DOC_linux_2_2_x.zip for a 
> binary-only driver which comes with instructions on how to link it into 
> your kernel - encouraging you to break the GPL.

I can link my kernel statically with binary-only modules as long as I
want.  I don't redistribute it and I just use it inhouse. This is my
personal decision and it has nothing to do with GPL. _IF_ I would ship
such a kernel, then I would be in violation of GPL.

If I give you a binary-only module which can either be loaded as a
driver or, maybe with some glue code, linked into the kernel and some
instructions how to do this, I am _not_at_all_ in violation of any
GPL. Because I distribute only my code under my license. If you follow
my instructions and link a kernel and use it, you're not in violation
of GPL because you don't distribute anything.

If you follow the instructions _and_ distribute the result, then you're in 
violation. So your point is moot.

> Note that it doesn't come as a loadable module (although it's possible to 
> hack it a bit to do that). The instructions only tell you how to link it 
> into your kernel - hence violating the GPL if you distribute your product.

Yes. But not before. And _I_ am violating the GPL, not M-Systems. 
Their licensing scheme just makes it for me impossible to distribute a
product with their driver. But that's _my_ problem not the problem of
M-Systems.

> I believe that IGEL's products are shipping with the DiskOnChip driver in 
> this form. Has anyone sued them yet?

In Germany we have a saying: "Wo kein Klaeger, da kein Richter" (If
there is noone who sues, there is noone to judge"). This applies here,
too. Sue them and you will see.

But then again, to my knowledge noone, has yet tested if the GPL holds
in a lawsuit. Imagine what would happen if it does not.

Regards
Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Withdrawl of Open Source NDS Project/NTFS/M2FS forLinux

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (J. Dow) writes:

>> That's B.S.  The GPL is a Copyright license; it applies whether or not
>> it is in the kernel.  Microsoft (or anyone else for that matter) can't
>> take your code and use it without consent.  The GPL is one way of giving
>> consent, with certain strings attached.

>And, Ted, THAT is brown steaming matter coming from the south end of a
>fertile male bovine. Who is going to have the money to beat MS at the "I
>have more attornies than you" game? And what constitutes copying in this

The FSF will surely step up (that's what RMS dreamed all about since
he started GNU. :-)). And there is "public opinion" if you cry out
loud enough and a pending law suit hanging over the heads of
Microsoft.

You don't need to win. If you put up a good fight here, maybe a judge
in another law suit will decide that there are good reasons to stop
them.

>sort of instance? It would be an expensive lawsuit. I suspect that barring

I'm sure that once the FSF is willing to step up, there will be lots
of supporters and sponsors to finance this.

Regards
    Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Withdrawl of Open Source NDS Project/NTFS/M2FS forLinux

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (J. Dow) writes:

 That's B.S.  The GPL is a Copyright license; it applies whether or not
 it is in the kernel.  Microsoft (or anyone else for that matter) can't
 take your code and use it without consent.  The GPL is one way of giving
 consent, with certain strings attached.

And, Ted, THAT is brown steaming matter coming from the south end of a
fertile male bovine. Who is going to have the money to beat MS at the "I
have more attornies than you" game? And what constitutes copying in this

The FSF will surely step up (that's what RMS dreamed all about since
he started GNU. :-)). And there is "public opinion" if you cry out
loud enough and a pending law suit hanging over the heads of
Microsoft.

You don't need to win. If you put up a good fight here, maybe a judge
in another law suit will decide that there are good reasons to stop
them.

sort of instance? It would be an expensive lawsuit. I suspect that barring

I'm sure that once the FSF is willing to step up, there will be lots
of supporters and sponsors to finance this.

Regards
Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

[RAPIDLY MOVING OFF-TOPIC] GPL and binary only drivers [once again] [was: Re: [ANNOUNCE] Withdrawl of Open Source NDS Project/NTFS/M2FS forLinux]

[Henning P . Schmiedehausen]

Hi,

On Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 12:18:10PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
  I'm sure that once the FSF is willing to step up, there will be lots
  of supporters and sponsors to finance this. 
 
 Far smaller companies have _already_ got away with not only violating the 
 Linux kernel's GPL, but blatantly encouraging their customers to do so.
 
 Why should we believe that anyone's actually going to pursue one as large 
 as Microsoft?
 
 See http://www.m-sys.com/files/drivers/doc/DOC_linux_2_2_x.zip for a 
 binary-only driver which comes with instructions on how to link it into 
 your kernel - encouraging you to break the GPL.

I can link my kernel statically with binary-only modules as long as I
want.  I don't redistribute it and I just use it inhouse. This is my
personal decision and it has nothing to do with GPL. _IF_ I would ship
such a kernel, then I would be in violation of GPL.

If I give you a binary-only module which can either be loaded as a
driver or, maybe with some glue code, linked into the kernel and some
instructions how to do this, I am _not_at_all_ in violation of any
GPL. Because I distribute only my code under my license. If you follow
my instructions and link a kernel and use it, you're not in violation
of GPL because you don't distribute anything.

If you follow the instructions _and_ distribute the result, then you're in 
violation. So your point is moot.

 Note that it doesn't come as a loadable module (although it's possible to 
 hack it a bit to do that). The instructions only tell you how to link it 
 into your kernel - hence violating the GPL if you distribute your product.

Yes. But not before. And _I_ am violating the GPL, not M-Systems. 
Their licensing scheme just makes it for me impossible to distribute a
product with their driver. But that's _my_ problem not the problem of
M-Systems.

 I believe that IGEL's products are shipping with the DiskOnChip driver in 
 this form. Has anyone sued them yet?

In Germany we have a saying: "Wo kein Klaeger, da kein Richter" (If
there is noone who sues, there is noone to judge"). This applies here,
too. Sue them and you will see.

But then again, to my knowledge noone, has yet tested if the GPL holds
in a lawsuit. Imagine what would happen if it does not.

Regards
Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Withdrawl of Open Source NDS Project/NTFS/M2FS forLinux

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andre Hedrick) writes:


>Apology to Jeff,

>I am sorry to here of this, but I know what you mean about microsoft.
>My and co-worker's code for doing full taskfile access under linux was
>rejected here but is being used in MicroSoft Whistler 2001.  They are
>quick to grab the very best of Linux and adopt it for their own.

If you can prove this, then you could talk to FSF about M$ GPL
violations. 

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Withdrawl of Open Source NDS Project/NTFS/M2FS forLinux

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andre Hedrick) writes:


Apology to Jeff,

I am sorry to here of this, but I know what you mean about microsoft.
My and co-worker's code for doing full taskfile access under linux was
rejected here but is being used in MicroSoft Whistler 2001.  They are
quick to grab the very best of Linux and adopt it for their own.

If you can prove this, then you could talk to FSF about M$ GPL
violations. 

Regards
Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux 2.2.18pre1

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Andree) writes:

>Alan Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Since 2.2.17 isnt out yet I've released 2.2.18pre1 versus 2.2.17pre20. So 
>> you need to grab 2.2.16 then apply the 2.2.17pre20 patch then the 2.2.18pre
>> patch of choice.

>Well, I'm asking again, as usual, are you planning to integrate
>kernel-space NFSv3? I'd appreciate if you did.

I support this request. It was promised since 2.2.13 to finally get a
working NFSv3 in the official kernel tree but it was always pushed
back further by "more important things" like driver updates and VM
changes...

I know that it is futile but getting LFS and RAID 0.90 would be nice,
too.  Especially as 95+% of all Linux users (which use a distribution
kernel) already _have_ 0.90 RAID and the last 5-% are able to patch
the old driver theirselves.

At least as a config option? CONFIG_NEW_RAID vs. CONFIG_OLD_RAID? Alan, if
you accept such a patch, I would generate one vs. 2.2.18pre1

Regards
        Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/