Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
> "rob" == Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: rob> On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: >> Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> > Ummm... GEM was the Geos stuff? (Yeah I remember it, I haven't >> > researched it yet though...) >> >> GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. >> Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. rob> Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt never rob> tried its gui.) Nope. GEM is older that dosshell, if I remember correctly, dosshell appeared with dos 4.x, and GEM was there with DOS 3.x (was x = 22?). I also had DOS+ from Digital Research in my Amstrad PC1512. Later, Juan. -- In theory, practice and theory are the same, but in practice they are different -- Larry McVoy - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
rob == Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: rob On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ummm... GEM was the Geos stuff? (Yeah I remember it, I haven't researched it yet though...) GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. rob Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt never rob tried its gui.) Nope. GEM is older that dosshell, if I remember correctly, dosshell appeared with dos 4.x, and GEM was there with DOS 3.x (was x = 22?). I also had DOS+ from Digital Research in my Amstrad PC1512. Later, Juan. -- In theory, practice and theory are the same, but in practice they are different -- Larry McVoy - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Kai Henningsen wrote: > No. GEM, I believe, originally came from CP/M. Most popular as the > windowing system of the Atari ST; given that someone did a quick-hack MS- > DOS clone to support it on the 68K, it seems fairly obvious that by that > time, it had already been ported to MS-DOS. (GEM-DOS is the only os I know > of that was actually worse than MS-DOS.) And ATARI goofed by not including more than GEM in the ST(e). Should have used the whole system like the TT and Falcon did. > Friends of mine (Gereon Steffens and Stefan Eissing) wrote a command-line If you see them, tell them an old STe user thanks them for there work. Without them I might never have headed to Unix :) Vielen Dank Herren. > shell and desktop replacement for the Atari that was fairly successful > shareware for a while ... now how was it called? The CLI was Mupfel > (German for shell is Muschel, and there was a kid's TV character who > pronounced Muschel as Mupfel), and I think the desktop was Gemini. Another I still have Gemini on a Disk for my STe. The SCSI adaptor died, so I don't know if the data is still good though. Then I tried the Minix port MinT (Mint is not TOS :) and was hooked on Unix. If I could get my SCSI adaptor fixed/replaced I'd still have my STe running, maybe even get a memory card (for > 4Meg) and a CPU upgrade (68000 is slow, get 68030 or 40 like the Falcon) Then I could run Linux on it (it need that math co-proc) -Thomas - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Kai Henningsen wrote: No. GEM, I believe, originally came from CP/M. Most popular as the windowing system of the Atari ST; given that someone did a quick-hack MS- DOS clone to support it on the 68K, it seems fairly obvious that by that time, it had already been ported to MS-DOS. (GEM-DOS is the only os I know of that was actually worse than MS-DOS.) And ATARI goofed by not including more than GEM in the ST(e). Should have used the whole system like the TT and Falcon did. Friends of mine (Gereon Steffens and Stefan Eissing) wrote a command-line If you see them, tell them an old STe user thanks them for there work. Without them I might never have headed to Unix :) Vielen Dank Herren. shell and desktop replacement for the Atari that was fairly successful shareware for a while ... now how was it called? The CLI was Mupfel (German for shell is Muschel, and there was a kid's TV character who pronounced Muschel as Mupfel), and I think the desktop was Gemini. Another I still have Gemini on a Disk for my STe. The SCSI adaptor died, so I don't know if the data is still good though. Then I tried the Minix port MinT (Mint is not TOS :) and was hooked on Unix. If I could get my SCSI adaptor fixed/replaced I'd still have my STe running, maybe even get a memory card (for 4Meg) and a CPU upgrade (68000 is slow, get 68030 or 40 like the Falcon) Then I could run Linux on it (it need that math co-proc) -Thomas - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
[OT] Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:26:55AM -0500, Jesse Pollard wrote: > a DF-32 for PDP 8 systems with 32 K bytes of disk space 32768 13-bit words (12-bit plus parity) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:09:41AM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Michael Meissner wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:16:27AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > > > The AS400 seems to be based out of Austin. We hear a lot about it around > > > here... > > > > Ummm, the AS/400 was based out of Rochester, Minnesota at least initially. It > > was the follow to System/3 -> System/36 -> System/38, and customers originally > > programmed it in RPG-III and Cobol. Now that AS/400's are based on special > > PowerPC's, the home may have moved to Austin, which is the PowerPC/AIX center. > > The AS/400 line was intended to be the mid-range system, between the mainframes > > (360 -> 370 -> 3080 -> 3900 -> ???) and the PCs. > > 360 -> 370 -> 3080 -> 3090 -> ES/9000 -> zSeries, IIRC > 360 -> 370 -> 3080 -> 3090 -> ES/9000 -> S/390 -> zSeries ? Peter. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Monday 25 June 2001 16:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... > > I learnt my computing on a PDP8/E with papertape punch/reader, RALF, > > Fortran II, then later 2.4Mb removable cartridges (RK05 I think). toggling > > in the bootstrap improved your concentration. Much later you could > > get a single chip(?) version of this in a wee knee sized box. > > "A quarter century of unix" mentions RK05 cartridges several times, but never > says much ABOUT them. > > Okay, so they're 2.4 megabyte removable cartridges? How big? Are they tapes > or disk packs? (I.E. can you run off of them or are they just storage?) I > know lots of early copies of unix were sent out from Bell Labs on RK05 > cartidges signed "love, ken"... Ah, the memories... (apologies for the interruptions, but just had too ...) RK05 cartriges looked very similar to a floppy case the size of an old 78 RPM record (about 12 inches across, 2 - 3 inches high). I never used them, but I did see them. They were among the first disk drives DEC ever made. Not the first (I think that was a DF-32 for PDP 8 systems with 32 K bytes of disk space). The raw storage was reported as 2.5 MB, formatted was ~2.4MB, with two recording surfaces. The drive looked very similar to a modern CD drive that would fit in about a 3U (ummm 4U?) 19 inch rack. It had 2 recording surfaces. It did have a write enable/disable switch. If I remember right these were originally made for the PDP 11/10-20 systems used for laboratory device control - chromatographs were mentioned by the chemistry department back in school. I may have an old DEC peripheral specification book at home (11/45 version). I really liked those books that DEC used to put out. If you ever needed to program a DEC interface, that book had everything. It was almost like the engineers were bragging about how easy the interfaces were to program. > What was that big reel to reel tape they always show in movies, anyway? I think they were CDC transports. > I need a weekend just to collate stuff... > > > One summer job was working on a PDP15 analog computer alongside an 11/20 > > with DECTAPE, trying to compute missile firing angles. [A simple version of > > Pres Bush's starwars shield]. > > Considering that the Mark I was designed to compute tables of artillery > firing angles during World War II... It's a distinct trend, innit? And the > source of the game "artillery duel", of course... Or the 11/34 version of the Lunar Lander (load from paper tape, graphics display on VT11 - 512x512 8 bit color). It used to be distributed as a diagnostic tool (hardware level interrupts, dual A/D conversion via joystick, I/O via VT11). Any memory, DMA, or bus configuration errors would hang the system with a known diagnostic one-liner message explaining the problem. I also saw a report of a "terminal warfare" event where the graphics display was being used for text editing when two little stick figure men would walk onto the display, pick up a line, and then walk off the screen. There was nothing the user could do until it finished. The text buffer wasn't touched, only the display buffer. - Jesse I Pollard, II Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any opinions expressed are solely my own. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Michael Meissner wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:16:27AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote:
> > The AS400 seems to be based out of Austin. We hear a lot about it around
> > here...
>
> Ummm, the AS/400 was based out of Rochester, Minnesota at least initially. It
> was the follow to System/3 -> System/36 -> System/38, and customers originally
> programmed it in RPG-III and Cobol. Now that AS/400's are based on special
> PowerPC's, the home may have moved to Austin, which is the PowerPC/AIX center.
> The AS/400 line was intended to be the mid-range system, between the mainframes
> (360 -> 370 -> 3080 -> 3900 -> ???) and the PCs.
360 -> 370 -> 3080 -> 3090 -> ES/9000 -> zSeries, IIRC
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
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Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Michael Meissner wrote:
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:16:27AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote:
The AS400 seems to be based out of Austin. We hear a lot about it around
here...
Ummm, the AS/400 was based out of Rochester, Minnesota at least initially. It
was the follow to System/3 - System/36 - System/38, and customers originally
programmed it in RPG-III and Cobol. Now that AS/400's are based on special
PowerPC's, the home may have moved to Austin, which is the PowerPC/AIX center.
The AS/400 line was intended to be the mid-range system, between the mainframes
(360 - 370 - 3080 - 3900 - ???) and the PCs.
360 - 370 - 3080 - 3090 - ES/9000 - zSeries, IIRC
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say programmer or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Monday 25 June 2001 16:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I learnt my computing on a PDP8/E with papertape punch/reader, RALF, Fortran II, then later 2.4Mb removable cartridges (RK05 I think). toggling in the bootstrap improved your concentration. Much later you could get a single chip(?) version of this in a wee knee sized box. A quarter century of unix mentions RK05 cartridges several times, but never says much ABOUT them. Okay, so they're 2.4 megabyte removable cartridges? How big? Are they tapes or disk packs? (I.E. can you run off of them or are they just storage?) I know lots of early copies of unix were sent out from Bell Labs on RK05 cartidges signed love, ken... Ah, the memories... (apologies for the interruptions, but just had too ...) RK05 cartriges looked very similar to a floppy case the size of an old 78 RPM record (about 12 inches across, 2 - 3 inches high). I never used them, but I did see them. They were among the first disk drives DEC ever made. Not the first (I think that was a DF-32 for PDP 8 systems with 32 K bytes of disk space). The raw storage was reported as 2.5 MB, formatted was ~2.4MB, with two recording surfaces. The drive looked very similar to a modern CD drive that would fit in about a 3U (ummm 4U?) 19 inch rack. It had 2 recording surfaces. It did have a write enable/disable switch. If I remember right these were originally made for the PDP 11/10-20 systems used for laboratory device control - chromatographs were mentioned by the chemistry department back in school. I may have an old DEC peripheral specification book at home (11/45 version). I really liked those books that DEC used to put out. If you ever needed to program a DEC interface, that book had everything. It was almost like the engineers were bragging about how easy the interfaces were to program. What was that big reel to reel tape they always show in movies, anyway? I think they were CDC transports. I need a weekend just to collate stuff... One summer job was working on a PDP15 analog computer alongside an 11/20 with DECTAPE, trying to compute missile firing angles. [A simple version of Pres Bush's starwars shield]. Considering that the Mark I was designed to compute tables of artillery firing angles during World War II... It's a distinct trend, innit? And the source of the game artillery duel, of course... Or the 11/34 version of the Lunar Lander (load from paper tape, graphics display on VT11 - 512x512 8 bit color). It used to be distributed as a diagnostic tool (hardware level interrupts, dual A/D conversion via joystick, I/O via VT11). Any memory, DMA, or bus configuration errors would hang the system with a known diagnostic one-liner message explaining the problem. I also saw a report of a terminal warfare event where the graphics display was being used for text editing when two little stick figure men would walk onto the display, pick up a line, and then walk off the screen. There was nothing the user could do until it finished. The text buffer wasn't touched, only the display buffer. - Jesse I Pollard, II Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any opinions expressed are solely my own. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:09:41AM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Michael Meissner wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:16:27AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: The AS400 seems to be based out of Austin. We hear a lot about it around here... Ummm, the AS/400 was based out of Rochester, Minnesota at least initially. It was the follow to System/3 - System/36 - System/38, and customers originally programmed it in RPG-III and Cobol. Now that AS/400's are based on special PowerPC's, the home may have moved to Austin, which is the PowerPC/AIX center. The AS/400 line was intended to be the mid-range system, between the mainframes (360 - 370 - 3080 - 3900 - ???) and the PCs. 360 - 370 - 3080 - 3090 - ES/9000 - zSeries, IIRC 360 - 370 - 3080 - 3090 - ES/9000 - S/390 - zSeries ? Peter. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
[OT] Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:26:55AM -0500, Jesse Pollard wrote: a DF-32 for PDP 8 systems with 32 K bytes of disk space 32768 13-bit words (12-bit plus parity) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Rob Landley wrote: > > On Monday 25 June 2001 11:13, you wrote: > > > 1937 claude shannon A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits," > > > > 1948 claude shannon A mathematical theory of information. > > > > without those you're kind in trouble on the computing front... > > Yeah, I know I've bumped into that name (and probably taken notes) somewhere. > Hmmm... Might be from "Where wizards stay up late", or might have been an > article linked from slashdot... (I don't THINK it was mentioned in > "Hackers"... Rodents, where was the reference... Crystal fire? That's > mostly hardware. Accidental Empries? Doesn't sound right... Can't have > been "Fire in the valley" because I haven't read that yet, it's still sitting > on the bookshelf. Not soul of a new machine, that's post-digital Equipment > Corporation...) > > I THINK that's in the set of notes that's on the box that's not hooked up > right now... (Shortage of monitors at home.) > > This was the dude who decided to apply a binary and boolean approach to > electronic computation, right? I KNOW I've read some stuff about him... late > last year? > > Now I remember. Slashdot linked to his obituary: Shannon was one of the clearest thinkers of the 20th century, and yet his name is hardly known outside his own field. Within his field he is respected at the level of, say, Newton. It was a real loss to mankind when he died a few months back. Regards, Steve - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tuesday 26 June 2001 12:15, Daniel Phillips wrote: > On Tuesday 26 June 2001 17:15, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jocelyn Mayer wrote: > > > > you get DR-DOS = Digital Research DOS, then you get Novell DOS, then > > you get Caldera OpenDOS, currently opendos is owned by lineo > > Yes, and the source actually was open for a short time when Caldera had it, > then it snapped back shut like a clam. I wanted to use DrDos for an > industrial project because of less paranoid licensing than MS-Dos, but > after being rebuffed in no uncertain terms when I offered to fix a bug I > ran away shuddering and jumped on the Linux cluetrain. > > > > I think I remember that DR-DOS was the name that Caldera > > > gave to the Digital Research OS, previously known as GEMDOS, After Ransom Love fell for Microsoft's "Stop using the GPL so we can fork your stuff and make a proprietary version" campaign... That pretty much buried the needle on my "cluelessness" meter. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Caldera could still do that would suprise me would be to come to their senses. Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Fwd: Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tuesday 26 June 2001 08:57, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > Ah, fame at last :-) You seem to have been inexplicably excluded from "a quarter century of unix" by peter salus. (You're not in the index, anyway.) Haven't read "life with unix" yet... > I'm not on the linux-kernel list but a friend forwarded me this message: > > Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. > > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:11:01 +0100 (BST) > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer > > Engineering degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think > > they and Queen Margaret > > College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside > > Bell Labs. > > It was in fact a PDP-11/45. Unix 5th Edition was first installed by Peter > De Souza around January 1975 (if anyone knows Peter's whereabouts please > mail me; I know he emigrated to the US and I lost track of him). Anyway, > the 11/45 had only 48kb of (core) memory, which was enough to boot the > system and run the Shell but almost nothing else. We had to connect the > machine to a neighbouring 11/20 with Unibus cable and a special bus switch > box built in-house in order to do anything. I'm a little fuzzy on how that would really improve things... It still wouldn't have enough memory to run anything except the shell. (Ummm... You skipped running the shell and booted straight to your app as process 1?) > This quickly improved when we > purchased a 256kb semiconductor memory board from Plessey (the DEC guy > couldn't believe all that memory would fit on only one 19-inch board :-). Sounds cool. Who's Plessey? (What was DEC selling at about that time? I take it they hadn't made the jump to IC dram yet?) Had anybody actually HEARD of Intel at this time? They seem to be a no-name fringe DRAM player until the 4004. Their retroactive history makes it seem quite noble, but I'm still not sure who they actually sold their DRAM -TO-... > It cost 3000 quid. Okay, a quid's a pound? (You are referring to the cost of the DRAM here?) I have no idea what the exchange rate was back about then... > We had 2 RK05 removable disks (2.5 Mb each!) and a paper > tape reader. Note that we had no tape drive, and Unix came on a reel of > tape, so we had to trudge around various places in the Edinburgh area doing > media conversions on non-Unix machines. Oh how we laughed. We later bought > an SMC 80Mb removable washing-machine style disk for I think about 15000 > pounds (for which we had to fight off the Control Engineering guys who > wanted to buy a floating-point unit -- yes, the fp was emulated!). How many different departments shared this box? What kind of things were done on it? > This system supported around 10 ASCII terminals via a DZ-11 serial-line > multiplexor. Memory was so tight we couldn't run VI, but I wrote my PhD > thesis on it (in NROFF) using George Coulouris' EM editor from Queen Mary > College (not Queen Margaret). They were the first to run Unix in the UK > along with us. I've never known who was really the first because of course > there was no Internet, not even UUCP mail. Ken Thompson would know, he sent out the tapes. Peter Salus's book just says (page 70), "The United Kingdom, which had received Unix in 1973..." Sigh... > We may even have been the first > in Europe for all I know, though I think Andy Tanenbaum was fairly close > behind. I thought Tanenbaum worked at Bell Labs? (Did he just visit, or did he move to europe after leaving the BTL?) > Anyway, I'll not rabbit on. Those were the days when men were men, real > programmers wrote assembler, and we didn't need no steenking GUIs (mumbles > into beer). And I'm writing a book about it. :) > > If anyone knows where Patrick O'Callaghan is now (ask > > him). > > I'm at Simón Bolívar University in Caracas, Venezuela. My home page is > http://www.ldc.usb.ve/~poc. And the mailing list we're discussing computing history on is: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist (Yes, I am recruiting! :) > Cheers > > poc Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:16:27AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > On Monday 25 June 2001 15:23, Kai Henningsen wrote: > > > The AS/400 is still going strong. It's a virtual machine based on a > > relational database (among other things), mostly programmed in COBOL (I > > think the C compiler has sizeof(void*) == 16 or something like that, so > > you can put a database position in that pointer), it doesn't know the > > difference between disk and memory (memory is *really* only a cache), and > > these days it's usually running on PowerPC hardware. > > > > ISTR there's a gcc port for the AS/400. Oh, and it does have normal BSD > > Sockets. These days, it's often sold as a web server. > > > > Main customer base seems to be medium large businesses and banks. > > The AS400 seems to be based out of Austin. We hear a lot about it around > here... Ummm, the AS/400 was based out of Rochester, Minnesota at least initially. It was the follow to System/3 -> System/36 -> System/38, and customers originally programmed it in RPG-III and Cobol. Now that AS/400's are based on special PowerPC's, the home may have moved to Austin, which is the PowerPC/AIX center. The AS/400 line was intended to be the mid-range system, between the mainframes (360 -> 370 -> 3080 -> 3900 -> ???) and the PCs. -- Michael Meissner, Red Hat, Inc. (GCC group) PMB 198, 174 Littleton Road #3, Westford, Massachusetts 01886, USA Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +1 978-486-9304 Non-work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] fax: +1 978-692-4482 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 10:44:53AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > Okay, so they're 2.4 megabyte removable cartridges? How big? Are they tapes > or disk packs? (I.E. can you run off of them or are they just storage?) I > know lots of early copies of unix were sent out from Bell Labs on RK05 > cartidges signed "love, ken"... IIRC, rk05 was a removable disk drive, 1 platter to the assembly, about the size of a large pizza box. They were the standard disk drives for small DEC machines of the era. My memories from 30+ years ago, say they were maybe 10 pounds each. I would imagine you are confusing tapes with disks (ie, tk instead of rk) in terms of the release media Bell Labs sent out (at least I never saw a disk with the media, and I did have a job of trying to port the V7 compiler to a V6 system). It could be the very early customers got disks, and the later ones got tapes. -- Michael Meissner, Red Hat, Inc. (GCC group) PMB 198, 174 Littleton Road #3, Westford, Massachusetts 01886, USA Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +1 978-486-9304 Non-work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] fax: +1 978-692-4482 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
There seems to be a bug in the mail routing again. It may be related to the recent problem with ditto copier history outbreaks on Linux S/390 and the infamous 'pdp-11 memory subsystem' article routing bug that plagued comp.os.minix once. In the meantime can people check that their mailer hasnt spontaneously added linux-kernel to their history articles before posting them ? Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
At 10:44 AM -0400 2001-06-26, Rob Landley wrote: >"A quarter century of unix" mentions RK05 cartridges several times, but never >says much ABOUT them. > >Okay, so they're 2.4 megabyte removable cartridges? How big? Are they tapes >or disk packs? (I.E. can you run off of them or are they just storage?) I >know lots of early copies of unix were sent out from Bell Labs on RK05 >cartidges signed "love, ken"... http://www.pdp8.net/rk05/rk05.shtml >What was that big reel to reel tape they always show in movies, anyway? The big-refrigerator-sized guys were generally attached to mainframes, IBM or otherwise. Here's a little info: http://www.digital-interact.co.uk/site/html/reference/media_9trk.html (but take it with a grain of salt; IBM surely didn't go to nine tracks because of ASCII!). -- /Jonathan Lundell. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Monday 25 June 2001 16:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi again, > > > > some old brain-cells got excited with the "good-ol-days" and other names > have surfaced like "Superbrain","Sirius" and "Apricot".Sirius was Victor in > the USA. If you go done the so-called IBM compatible route then the nearly > compatible nightmares will arise and haunt you, your lucky if the scars > have faded!! With the spelling cleaned up slightly, I just might want to quote that last sentence in my book. Would you object? I take it that superbrain, sirius/victor, and apricot were PC clones like the Tandy and Wang that were sort of but not really compatable? > I learnt my computing on a PDP8/E with papertape punch/reader, RALF, > Fortran II, then later 2.4Mb removable cartridges (RK05 I think). toggling > in the bootstrap improved your concentration. Much later you could > get a single chip(?) version of this in a wee knee sized box. "A quarter century of unix" mentions RK05 cartridges several times, but never says much ABOUT them. Okay, so they're 2.4 megabyte removable cartridges? How big? Are they tapes or disk packs? (I.E. can you run off of them or are they just storage?) I know lots of early copies of unix were sent out from Bell Labs on RK05 cartidges signed "love, ken"... What was that big reel to reel tape they always show in movies, anyway? I need a weekend just to collate stuff... > One summer job was working on a PDP15 analog computer alongside an 11/20 > with DECTAPE, trying to compute missile firing angles. [A simple version of > Pres Bush's starwars shield]. Considering that the Mark I was designed to compute tables of artillery firing angles during World War II... It's a distinct trend, innit? And the source of the game "artillery duel", of course... > -- > > Andrew Smith in Edinburgh,Scotland > > On 25 Jun 2001, Kai Henningsen wrote: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Landley) wrote on 24.06.01 in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX > > > - Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I > > > believe...) > > > > http://www.google.com/search?q=%22%2ba/ux%22 > > > > Usually a good idea. > > > > > > > > Also, you probably want to look at RFC 2235. > > > > MfG Kai > > - > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" > > in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > > ___ > Penguicon-comphist mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Monday 25 June 2001 15:23, Kai Henningsen wrote: > The AS/400 is still going strong. It's a virtual machine based on a > relational database (among other things), mostly programmed in COBOL (I > think the C compiler has sizeof(void*) == 16 or something like that, so > you can put a database position in that pointer), it doesn't know the > difference between disk and memory (memory is *really* only a cache), and > these days it's usually running on PowerPC hardware. > > ISTR there's a gcc port for the AS/400. Oh, and it does have normal BSD > Sockets. These days, it's often sold as a web server. > > Main customer base seems to be medium large businesses and banks. The AS400 seems to be based out of Austin. We hear a lot about it around here... > > Lotus-Intel-Microsoft Expanded Memory Specification), and "DOSShell" > > which conformed to the SAA graphical user interface guidelines. > > Nope, the text user interface guidelines, a related but not the same > beast. That's where F1 == Help is from, by the way. Same overall push. I think the distinction there is a bit nit-picking to put in the book, but I'll have to look it up to make sure... > In fact, the user interface part of SAA was (is?) called CUA. And many IBM > text mode interfaces more or less follow it, including OS/400 (the os of > the AS/400). Once upon a time, I had the specs for CUA. When I worked at IBM I had to program for CUA. Ouch. Painful memories... How did any of this related to the "Common Desktop Environment", by the way? > > The PS/2 model 70/80 (desktop/tower versions of same thing) were IBM's > > first 386 based PC boxes, which came with either DOS 3.3, DOS 4.0, OS/2 > > (1.0), or AIX. > > The first 386 PCs where not from IBM, by the way. Was it Compaq? It was compaq. The "Desqpro" or some such. That was actually an important turning point, Compaq basically stuck a 32 bit processor in a machine that was otherwise designed for a 16 bit one. It had a 16 bit ISA bus, 8 bit 30 pin simms that had been paired off now needed to be used in groups of 4... It was a painful hack from a hardware perspective. IBM was busy trying to upgrade the memory system and bus and stuff to be a better platform for the 386, but the waited to long and compaq just came out with "a quick hack now", and everybody else started copying compaq (especially when IBM's alternative was patented and thus not easily clonable...) With the PS/2 IBM succeeded in preventing the clones from copying them. Their mistake was in thinking that this was a good thing. > > AIX was NOT fully SAA/SNA compliant, > > AFAICT, nothing ever was fully SAA compliant, though some systems were > more compliant than others. Yeah, but AIX didn't even pretend to be. And that sidelined it within IBM in the late 80's in a big way. (Up until Gerster took over and overturned everything.) > > Hmmm... Notes on the history of shareware (pc-write/bob > > wallace/quiicksoft, pc-file/pc-calc/jim button/buttonware, pc-talk/andrew > > flugelman, apparently the chronological order is andrew-jim-bob, and bob > > came up with the name "shareware" because "freeware" was a trademark of > > Headlands Press, Inc...) > > That may be, but I believe the *concept* was invented in 1980 by Bill The "concept" of freeware had been around as public domain software forever. The homebrew club thought that way naturally about micros, and the MIT hackers thought that way also. If you're saying basham invented shareware... Maybe. I'll have to look into it. I'm just tracing back the origin of the word... > Basham, with the Apple ][ DOS replacement Diversi-DOS (which was the most > popular of many versions to increase disk speed by about a factor of 5). I > still remember discussions how copying this stuff was actually the right > thing to do. Seems he's still in business as "Diversified Software > Research", http://www.divtune.com/. Adding link to link pile... > > running AIX. The engineers (in Austin) whent on for the second > > generation Risc System 6000 (the RS/6000) with AIX version 3, launched > > February 15 1990. The acronym "POWER" stands for Performance Optimized > > WIth Enhanced Risc. > > The PowerPC was split off from the POWER architecture, and then the POWER > stuff was turned into the high end above PowerPC (with system prices about > a factor of ten higher as the lower bound). Yeah, I have to research that bit still. I know the vague bits (the IBM/apple/motorola hegemony to unseat Intel with risc, conceived before Intel came out with the Pentium, of course...) > IBM developed a version of OS/2 2.0 for the PowerPC, but *never* marketed > it - you could buy it if you knew the right number, but they never spent a > single cent on advertizing - by the time it was done, IBM had given up on > OS/2. Most OS/2 fans agreed that it was killed by IBM with extremely bad > marketing. My first job out of college was working at IBM in Boca Raton florida on the install
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tuesday 26 June 2001 17:15, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jocelyn Mayer wrote: > > you get DR-DOS = Digital Research DOS, then you get Novell DOS, then > you get Caldera OpenDOS, currently opendos is owned by lineo Yes, and the source actually was open for a short time when Caldera had it, then it snapped back shut like a clam. I wanted to use DrDos for an industrial project because of less paranoid licensing than MS-Dos, but after being rebuffed in no uncertain terms when I offered to fix a bug I ran away shuddering and jumped on the Linux cluetrain. > > I think I remember that DR-DOS was the name that Caldera > > gave to the Digital Research OS, previously known as GEMDOS, -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jocelyn Mayer wrote: you get DR-DOS = Digital Research DOS, then you get Novell DOS, then you get Caldera OpenDOS, currently opendos is owned by lineo > I think I remember that DR-DOS was the name that Caldera > gave to the Digital Research OS, previously known as GEMDOS, -- Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Academic User Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E -- It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of arms. Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of the right, 1843. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Fwd: Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Ah, fame at last :-) I'm not on the linux-kernel list but a friend forwarded me this message: > Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:11:01 +0100 (BST) > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer > Engineering degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think > they and Queen Margaret > College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside > Bell Labs. It was in fact a PDP-11/45. Unix 5th Edition was first installed by Peter De Souza around January 1975 (if anyone knows Peter's whereabouts please mail me; I know he emigrated to the US and I lost track of him). Anyway, the 11/45 had only 48kb of (core) memory, which was enough to boot the system and run the Shell but almost nothing else. We had to connect the machine to a neighbouring 11/20 with Unibus cable and a special bus switch box built in-house in order to do anything. This quickly improved when we purchased a 256kb semiconductor memory board from Plessey (the DEC guy couldn't believe all that memory would fit on only one 19-inch board :-). It cost 3000 quid. We had 2 RK05 removable disks (2.5 Mb each!) and a paper tape reader. Note that we had no tape drive, and Unix came on a reel of tape, so we had to trudge around various places in the Edinburgh area doing media conversions on non-Unix machines. Oh how we laughed. We later bought an SMC 80Mb removable washing-machine style disk for I think about 15000 pounds (for which we had to fight off the Control Engineering guys who wanted to buy a floating-point unit -- yes, the fp was emulated!). This system supported around 10 ASCII terminals via a DZ-11 serial-line multiplexor. Memory was so tight we couldn't run VI, but I wrote my PhD thesis on it (in NROFF) using George Coulouris' EM editor from Queen Mary College (not Queen Margaret). They were the first to run Unix in the UK along with us. I've never known who was really the first because of course there was no Internet, not even UUCP mail. We may even have been the first in Europe for all I know, though I think Andy Tanenbaum was fairly close behind. Anyway, I'll not rabbit on. Those were the days when men were men, real programmers wrote assembler, and we didn't need no steenking GUIs (mumbles into beer). > If anyone knows where Patrick O'Callaghan is now (ask > him). I'm at Simón Bolívar University in Caracas, Venezuela. My home page is http://www.ldc.usb.ve/~poc. Cheers poc - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Fwd: Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Ah, fame at last :-) I'm not on the linux-kernel list but a friend forwarded me this message: Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:11:01 +0100 (BST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer Engineering degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think they and Queen Margaret College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside Bell Labs. It was in fact a PDP-11/45. Unix 5th Edition was first installed by Peter De Souza around January 1975 (if anyone knows Peter's whereabouts please mail me; I know he emigrated to the US and I lost track of him). Anyway, the 11/45 had only 48kb of (core) memory, which was enough to boot the system and run the Shell but almost nothing else. We had to connect the machine to a neighbouring 11/20 with Unibus cable and a special bus switch box built in-house in order to do anything. This quickly improved when we purchased a 256kb semiconductor memory board from Plessey (the DEC guy couldn't believe all that memory would fit on only one 19-inch board :-). It cost 3000 quid. We had 2 RK05 removable disks (2.5 Mb each!) and a paper tape reader. Note that we had no tape drive, and Unix came on a reel of tape, so we had to trudge around various places in the Edinburgh area doing media conversions on non-Unix machines. Oh how we laughed. We later bought an SMC 80Mb removable washing-machine style disk for I think about 15000 pounds (for which we had to fight off the Control Engineering guys who wanted to buy a floating-point unit -- yes, the fp was emulated!). This system supported around 10 ASCII terminals via a DZ-11 serial-line multiplexor. Memory was so tight we couldn't run VI, but I wrote my PhD thesis on it (in NROFF) using George Coulouris' EM editor from Queen Mary College (not Queen Margaret). They were the first to run Unix in the UK along with us. I've never known who was really the first because of course there was no Internet, not even UUCP mail. We may even have been the first in Europe for all I know, though I think Andy Tanenbaum was fairly close behind. Anyway, I'll not rabbit on. Those were the days when men were men, real programmers wrote assembler, and we didn't need no steenking GUIs (mumbles into beer). If anyone knows where Patrick O'Callaghan is now (ask him). I'm at Simón Bolívar University in Caracas, Venezuela. My home page is http://www.ldc.usb.ve/~poc. Cheers poc - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jocelyn Mayer wrote: you get DR-DOS = Digital Research DOS, then you get Novell DOS, then you get Caldera OpenDOS, currently opendos is owned by lineo I think I remember that DR-DOS was the name that Caldera gave to the Digital Research OS, previously known as GEMDOS, -- Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Academic User Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E -- It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of arms. Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of the right, 1843. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tuesday 26 June 2001 17:15, Joel Jaeggli wrote: On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jocelyn Mayer wrote: you get DR-DOS = Digital Research DOS, then you get Novell DOS, then you get Caldera OpenDOS, currently opendos is owned by lineo Yes, and the source actually was open for a short time when Caldera had it, then it snapped back shut like a clam. I wanted to use DrDos for an industrial project because of less paranoid licensing than MS-Dos, but after being rebuffed in no uncertain terms when I offered to fix a bug I ran away shuddering and jumped on the Linux cluetrain. I think I remember that DR-DOS was the name that Caldera gave to the Digital Research OS, previously known as GEMDOS, -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Monday 25 June 2001 16:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi again, some old brain-cells got excited with the good-ol-days and other names have surfaced like Superbrain,Sirius and Apricot.Sirius was Victor in the USA. If you go done the so-called IBM compatible route then the nearly compatible nightmares will arise and haunt you, your lucky if the scars have faded!! With the spelling cleaned up slightly, I just might want to quote that last sentence in my book. Would you object? I take it that superbrain, sirius/victor, and apricot were PC clones like the Tandy and Wang that were sort of but not really compatable? I learnt my computing on a PDP8/E with papertape punch/reader, RALF, Fortran II, then later 2.4Mb removable cartridges (RK05 I think). toggling in the bootstrap improved your concentration. Much later you could get a single chip(?) version of this in a wee knee sized box. A quarter century of unix mentions RK05 cartridges several times, but never says much ABOUT them. Okay, so they're 2.4 megabyte removable cartridges? How big? Are they tapes or disk packs? (I.E. can you run off of them or are they just storage?) I know lots of early copies of unix were sent out from Bell Labs on RK05 cartidges signed love, ken... What was that big reel to reel tape they always show in movies, anyway? I need a weekend just to collate stuff... One summer job was working on a PDP15 analog computer alongside an 11/20 with DECTAPE, trying to compute missile firing angles. [A simple version of Pres Bush's starwars shield]. Considering that the Mark I was designed to compute tables of artillery firing angles during World War II... It's a distinct trend, innit? And the source of the game artillery duel, of course... -- Andrew Smith in Edinburgh,Scotland On 25 Jun 2001, Kai Henningsen wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Landley) wrote on 24.06.01 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX - Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I believe...) http://www.google.com/search?q=%22%2ba/ux%22 Usually a good idea. Also, you probably want to look at RFC 2235. MfG Kai - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ___ Penguicon-comphist mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Monday 25 June 2001 15:23, Kai Henningsen wrote: The AS/400 is still going strong. It's a virtual machine based on a relational database (among other things), mostly programmed in COBOL (I think the C compiler has sizeof(void*) == 16 or something like that, so you can put a database position in that pointer), it doesn't know the difference between disk and memory (memory is *really* only a cache), and these days it's usually running on PowerPC hardware. ISTR there's a gcc port for the AS/400. Oh, and it does have normal BSD Sockets. These days, it's often sold as a web server. Main customer base seems to be medium large businesses and banks. The AS400 seems to be based out of Austin. We hear a lot about it around here... Lotus-Intel-Microsoft Expanded Memory Specification), and DOSShell which conformed to the SAA graphical user interface guidelines. Nope, the text user interface guidelines, a related but not the same beast. That's where F1 == Help is from, by the way. Same overall push. I think the distinction there is a bit nit-picking to put in the book, but I'll have to look it up to make sure... In fact, the user interface part of SAA was (is?) called CUA. And many IBM text mode interfaces more or less follow it, including OS/400 (the os of the AS/400). Once upon a time, I had the specs for CUA. When I worked at IBM I had to program for CUA. Ouch. Painful memories... How did any of this related to the Common Desktop Environment, by the way? The PS/2 model 70/80 (desktop/tower versions of same thing) were IBM's first 386 based PC boxes, which came with either DOS 3.3, DOS 4.0, OS/2 (1.0), or AIX. The first 386 PCs where not from IBM, by the way. Was it Compaq? It was compaq. The Desqpro or some such. That was actually an important turning point, Compaq basically stuck a 32 bit processor in a machine that was otherwise designed for a 16 bit one. It had a 16 bit ISA bus, 8 bit 30 pin simms that had been paired off now needed to be used in groups of 4... It was a painful hack from a hardware perspective. IBM was busy trying to upgrade the memory system and bus and stuff to be a better platform for the 386, but the waited to long and compaq just came out with a quick hack now, and everybody else started copying compaq (especially when IBM's alternative was patented and thus not easily clonable...) With the PS/2 IBM succeeded in preventing the clones from copying them. Their mistake was in thinking that this was a good thing. AIX was NOT fully SAA/SNA compliant, AFAICT, nothing ever was fully SAA compliant, though some systems were more compliant than others. Yeah, but AIX didn't even pretend to be. And that sidelined it within IBM in the late 80's in a big way. (Up until Gerster took over and overturned everything.) Hmmm... Notes on the history of shareware (pc-write/bob wallace/quiicksoft, pc-file/pc-calc/jim button/buttonware, pc-talk/andrew flugelman, apparently the chronological order is andrew-jim-bob, and bob came up with the name shareware because freeware was a trademark of Headlands Press, Inc...) That may be, but I believe the *concept* was invented in 1980 by Bill The concept of freeware had been around as public domain software forever. The homebrew club thought that way naturally about micros, and the MIT hackers thought that way also. If you're saying basham invented shareware... Maybe. I'll have to look into it. I'm just tracing back the origin of the word... Basham, with the Apple ][ DOS replacement Diversi-DOS (which was the most popular of many versions to increase disk speed by about a factor of 5). I still remember discussions how copying this stuff was actually the right thing to do. Seems he's still in business as Diversified Software Research, http://www.divtune.com/. Adding link to link pile... running AIX. The engineers (in Austin) whent on for the second generation Risc System 6000 (the RS/6000) with AIX version 3, launched February 15 1990. The acronym POWER stands for Performance Optimized WIth Enhanced Risc. The PowerPC was split off from the POWER architecture, and then the POWER stuff was turned into the high end above PowerPC (with system prices about a factor of ten higher as the lower bound). Yeah, I have to research that bit still. I know the vague bits (the IBM/apple/motorola hegemony to unseat Intel with risc, conceived before Intel came out with the Pentium, of course...) IBM developed a version of OS/2 2.0 for the PowerPC, but *never* marketed it - you could buy it if you knew the right number, but they never spent a single cent on advertizing - by the time it was done, IBM had given up on OS/2. Most OS/2 fans agreed that it was killed by IBM with extremely bad marketing. My first job out of college was working at IBM in Boca Raton florida on the install system for OS/2 for the power PC. (The monster that became Feature Install in
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
At 10:44 AM -0400 2001-06-26, Rob Landley wrote: A quarter century of unix mentions RK05 cartridges several times, but never says much ABOUT them. Okay, so they're 2.4 megabyte removable cartridges? How big? Are they tapes or disk packs? (I.E. can you run off of them or are they just storage?) I know lots of early copies of unix were sent out from Bell Labs on RK05 cartidges signed love, ken... http://www.pdp8.net/rk05/rk05.shtml What was that big reel to reel tape they always show in movies, anyway? The big-refrigerator-sized guys were generally attached to mainframes, IBM or otherwise. Here's a little info: http://www.digital-interact.co.uk/site/html/reference/media_9trk.html (but take it with a grain of salt; IBM surely didn't go to nine tracks because of ASCII!). -- /Jonathan Lundell. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 10:44:53AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: Okay, so they're 2.4 megabyte removable cartridges? How big? Are they tapes or disk packs? (I.E. can you run off of them or are they just storage?) I know lots of early copies of unix were sent out from Bell Labs on RK05 cartidges signed love, ken... IIRC, rk05 was a removable disk drive, 1 platter to the assembly, about the size of a large pizza box. They were the standard disk drives for small DEC machines of the era. My memories from 30+ years ago, say they were maybe 10 pounds each. I would imagine you are confusing tapes with disks (ie, tknum instead of rknum) in terms of the release media Bell Labs sent out (at least I never saw a disk with the media, and I did have a job of trying to port the V7 compiler to a V6 system). It could be the very early customers got disks, and the later ones got tapes. -- Michael Meissner, Red Hat, Inc. (GCC group) PMB 198, 174 Littleton Road #3, Westford, Massachusetts 01886, USA Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +1 978-486-9304 Non-work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] fax: +1 978-692-4482 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:16:27AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: On Monday 25 June 2001 15:23, Kai Henningsen wrote: The AS/400 is still going strong. It's a virtual machine based on a relational database (among other things), mostly programmed in COBOL (I think the C compiler has sizeof(void*) == 16 or something like that, so you can put a database position in that pointer), it doesn't know the difference between disk and memory (memory is *really* only a cache), and these days it's usually running on PowerPC hardware. ISTR there's a gcc port for the AS/400. Oh, and it does have normal BSD Sockets. These days, it's often sold as a web server. Main customer base seems to be medium large businesses and banks. The AS400 seems to be based out of Austin. We hear a lot about it around here... Ummm, the AS/400 was based out of Rochester, Minnesota at least initially. It was the follow to System/3 - System/36 - System/38, and customers originally programmed it in RPG-III and Cobol. Now that AS/400's are based on special PowerPC's, the home may have moved to Austin, which is the PowerPC/AIX center. The AS/400 line was intended to be the mid-range system, between the mainframes (360 - 370 - 3080 - 3900 - ???) and the PCs. -- Michael Meissner, Red Hat, Inc. (GCC group) PMB 198, 174 Littleton Road #3, Westford, Massachusetts 01886, USA Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +1 978-486-9304 Non-work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] fax: +1 978-692-4482 - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Fwd: Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tuesday 26 June 2001 08:57, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Ah, fame at last :-) You seem to have been inexplicably excluded from a quarter century of unix by peter salus. (You're not in the index, anyway.) Haven't read life with unix yet... I'm not on the linux-kernel list but a friend forwarded me this message: Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:11:01 +0100 (BST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer Engineering degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think they and Queen Margaret College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside Bell Labs. It was in fact a PDP-11/45. Unix 5th Edition was first installed by Peter De Souza around January 1975 (if anyone knows Peter's whereabouts please mail me; I know he emigrated to the US and I lost track of him). Anyway, the 11/45 had only 48kb of (core) memory, which was enough to boot the system and run the Shell but almost nothing else. We had to connect the machine to a neighbouring 11/20 with Unibus cable and a special bus switch box built in-house in order to do anything. I'm a little fuzzy on how that would really improve things... It still wouldn't have enough memory to run anything except the shell. (Ummm... You skipped running the shell and booted straight to your app as process 1?) This quickly improved when we purchased a 256kb semiconductor memory board from Plessey (the DEC guy couldn't believe all that memory would fit on only one 19-inch board :-). Sounds cool. Who's Plessey? (What was DEC selling at about that time? I take it they hadn't made the jump to IC dram yet?) Had anybody actually HEARD of Intel at this time? They seem to be a no-name fringe DRAM player until the 4004. Their retroactive history makes it seem quite noble, but I'm still not sure who they actually sold their DRAM -TO-... It cost 3000 quid. Okay, a quid's a pound? (You are referring to the cost of the DRAM here?) I have no idea what the exchange rate was back about then... We had 2 RK05 removable disks (2.5 Mb each!) and a paper tape reader. Note that we had no tape drive, and Unix came on a reel of tape, so we had to trudge around various places in the Edinburgh area doing media conversions on non-Unix machines. Oh how we laughed. We later bought an SMC 80Mb removable washing-machine style disk for I think about 15000 pounds (for which we had to fight off the Control Engineering guys who wanted to buy a floating-point unit -- yes, the fp was emulated!). How many different departments shared this box? What kind of things were done on it? This system supported around 10 ASCII terminals via a DZ-11 serial-line multiplexor. Memory was so tight we couldn't run VI, but I wrote my PhD thesis on it (in NROFF) using George Coulouris' EM editor from Queen Mary College (not Queen Margaret). They were the first to run Unix in the UK along with us. I've never known who was really the first because of course there was no Internet, not even UUCP mail. Ken Thompson would know, he sent out the tapes. Peter Salus's book just says (page 70), The United Kingdom, which had received Unix in 1973... Sigh... We may even have been the first in Europe for all I know, though I think Andy Tanenbaum was fairly close behind. I thought Tanenbaum worked at Bell Labs? (Did he just visit, or did he move to europe after leaving the BTL?) Anyway, I'll not rabbit on. Those were the days when men were men, real programmers wrote assembler, and we didn't need no steenking GUIs (mumbles into beer). And I'm writing a book about it. :) If anyone knows where Patrick O'Callaghan is now (ask him). I'm at Simón Bolívar University in Caracas, Venezuela. My home page is http://www.ldc.usb.ve/~poc. And the mailing list we're discussing computing history on is: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist (Yes, I am recruiting! :) Cheers poc Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Tuesday 26 June 2001 12:15, Daniel Phillips wrote: On Tuesday 26 June 2001 17:15, Joel Jaeggli wrote: On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jocelyn Mayer wrote: you get DR-DOS = Digital Research DOS, then you get Novell DOS, then you get Caldera OpenDOS, currently opendos is owned by lineo Yes, and the source actually was open for a short time when Caldera had it, then it snapped back shut like a clam. I wanted to use DrDos for an industrial project because of less paranoid licensing than MS-Dos, but after being rebuffed in no uncertain terms when I offered to fix a bug I ran away shuddering and jumped on the Linux cluetrain. I think I remember that DR-DOS was the name that Caldera gave to the Digital Research OS, previously known as GEMDOS, After Ransom Love fell for Microsoft's Stop using the GPL so we can fork your stuff and make a proprietary version campaign... That pretty much buried the needle on my cluelessness meter. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Caldera could still do that would suprise me would be to come to their senses. Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Rob Landley wrote: On Monday 25 June 2001 11:13, you wrote: 1937 claude shannon A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits, 1948 claude shannon A mathematical theory of information. without those you're kind in trouble on the computing front... Yeah, I know I've bumped into that name (and probably taken notes) somewhere. Hmmm... Might be from Where wizards stay up late, or might have been an article linked from slashdot... (I don't THINK it was mentioned in Hackers... Rodents, where was the reference... Crystal fire? That's mostly hardware. Accidental Empries? Doesn't sound right... Can't have been Fire in the valley because I haven't read that yet, it's still sitting on the bookshelf. Not soul of a new machine, that's post-digital Equipment Corporation...) I THINK that's in the set of notes that's on the box that's not hooked up right now... (Shortage of monitors at home.) This was the dude who decided to apply a binary and boolean approach to electronic computation, right? I KNOW I've read some stuff about him... late last year? Now I remember. Slashdot linked to his obituary: Shannon was one of the clearest thinkers of the 20th century, and yet his name is hardly known outside his own field. Within his field he is respected at the level of, say, Newton. It was a real loss to mankind when he died a few months back. Regards, Steve - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [comphist] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
There seems to be a bug in the mail routing again. It may be related to the recent problem with ditto copier history outbreaks on Linux S/390 and the infamous 'pdp-11 memory subsystem' article routing bug that plagued comp.os.minix once. In the meantime can people check that their mailer hasnt spontaneously added linux-kernel to their history articles before posting them ? Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
> /> > GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. / > /> > Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. / > /> / > /> Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos > byt never / > /> tried its gui.) / > > Actually I believe GEM predates DR-DOS, and except for being > made by the same company I don't think they were ever related. > > Eric Well I think I remember that DR-DOS was the name that Caldera gave to the Digital Research OS, previously known as GEMDOS, when then bought the company. GEMDOS was the official OS under the GEM Gui, but GEM was also able to run with MS-DOS and TOS (the Atari OS). Geoworks / Geos isn't a Digital Research product, but has been developped by guys who ran away from Digital when it has been bought by Novell... Some guys told me that they worked with Geos and that it was really closed with the internal "GEM spirit" Regards. Jocelyn. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Hi again, some old brain-cells got excited with the "good-ol-days" and other names have surfaced like "Superbrain","Sirius" and "Apricot".Sirius was Victor in the USA. If you go done the so-called IBM compatible route then the nearly compatible nightmares will arise and haunt you, your lucky if the scars have faded!! I learnt my computing on a PDP8/E with papertape punch/reader, RALF, Fortran II, then later 2.4Mb removable cartridges (RK05 I think). toggling in the bootstrap improved your concentration. Much later you could get a single chip(?) version of this in a wee knee sized box. One summer job was working on a PDP15 analog computer alongside an 11/20 with DECTAPE, trying to compute missile firing angles. [A simple version of Pres Bush's starwars shield]. -- Andrew Smith in Edinburgh,Scotland On 25 Jun 2001, Kai Henningsen wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Landley) wrote on 24.06.01 in ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX - > > Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I believe...) > > http://www.google.com/search?q=%22%2ba/ux%22 > > Usually a good idea. > > > > Also, you probably want to look at RFC 2235. > > MfG Kai > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 10:17:09AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: > On Monday 25 June 2001 11:13, you wrote: > > 1937 claude shannon A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits," > > > > 1948 claude shannon A mathematical theory of information. > > > > without those you're kind in trouble on the computing front... [snip] > This was the dude who decided to apply a binary and boolean approach to > electronic computation, right? I KNOW I've read some stuff about him... late > last year? Yes, but the latter paper was the real milestone. This was the guy who actually defined what information *is*, and found out the upper limits of communication rates on a given channel. This was the guy who laid the fundaments of the information theory. Without information theory no compression, reliable transmission, reliable storage, crypthography, etc. Erik [who works in an information theory group] -- J.A.K. (Erik) Mouw, Information and Communication Theory Group, Department of Electrical Engineering, Faculty of Information Technology and Systems, Delft University of Technology, PO BOX 5031, 2600 GA Delft, The Netherlands Phone: +31-15-2783635 Fax: +31-15-2781843 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www-ict.its.tudelft.nl/~erik/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Monday 25 June 2001 13:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi, > > If you're really keen on old mags and manuals I'll go up to attic and look > around. I know there are old SCO Xenix & TCP/IP, as well as Byte and Dr > Dobbs > Ooh! Yes! Very much so. Thanks, Rob The mailing list for this discussion is: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Landley) wrote on 24.06.01 in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX - > Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I believe...) http://www.google.com/search?q=%22%2ba/ux%22 Usually a good idea. Also, you probably want to look at RFC 2235. MfG Kai - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Monday 25 June 2001 11:13, you wrote: > 1937 claude shannon A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits," > > 1948 claude shannon A mathematical theory of information. > > without those you're kind in trouble on the computing front... Yeah, I know I've bumped into that name (and probably taken notes) somewhere. Hmmm... Might be from "Where wizards stay up late", or might have been an article linked from slashdot... (I don't THINK it was mentioned in "Hackers"... Rodents, where was the reference... Crystal fire? That's mostly hardware. Accidental Empries? Doesn't sound right... Can't have been "Fire in the valley" because I haven't read that yet, it's still sitting on the bookshelf. Not soul of a new machine, that's post-digital Equipment Corporation...) I THINK that's in the set of notes that's on the box that's not hooked up right now... (Shortage of monitors at home.) This was the dude who decided to apply a binary and boolean approach to electronic computation, right? I KNOW I've read some stuff about him... late last year? Now I remember. Slashdot linked to his obituary: http://www.bell-labs.com/news/2001/february/26/1.html Rob The list for this discussion is: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Landley) wrote on 23.06.01 in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > on April 2, 1987. (models 50, 60, and 80.) The SAA/SNA push also extended > through the System/370 and AS400 stuff too. (I think 370's the mainframe > and AS400 is the minicomputer, but I'd have to look it up. One of them > (AS400?) had a database built into the OS. Interestingly, this is where SQL > originated (my notes say SQL came from the System/370 but I have to > double-check that, I thought the AS400 was the one with the built in > database?). The AS/400 is still going strong. It's a virtual machine based on a relational database (among other things), mostly programmed in COBOL (I think the C compiler has sizeof(void*) == 16 or something like that, so you can put a database position in that pointer), it doesn't know the difference between disk and memory (memory is *really* only a cache), and these days it's usually running on PowerPC hardware. ISTR there's a gcc port for the AS/400. Oh, and it does have normal BSD Sockets. These days, it's often sold as a web server. Main customer base seems to be medium large businesses and banks. > Lotus-Intel-Microsoft Expanded Memory Specification), and "DOSShell" which > conformed to the SAA graphical user interface guidelines. Nope, the text user interface guidelines, a related but not the same beast. That's where F1 == Help is from, by the way. In fact, the user interface part of SAA was (is?) called CUA. And many IBM text mode interfaces more or less follow it, including OS/400 (the os of the AS/400). Once upon a time, I had the specs for CUA. > The PS/2 model 70/80 (desktop/tower versions of same thing) were IBM's first > 386 based PC boxes, which came with either DOS 3.3, DOS 4.0, OS/2 (1.0), or > AIX. The first 386 PCs where not from IBM, by the way. Was it Compaq? > AIX was NOT fully SAA/SNA compliant, AFAICT, nothing ever was fully SAA compliant, though some systems were more compliant than others. > Hmmm... Notes on the history of shareware (pc-write/bob wallace/quiicksoft, > pc-file/pc-calc/jim button/buttonware, pc-talk/andrew flugelman, apparently > the chronological order is andrew-jim-bob, and bob came up with the name > "shareware" because "freeware" was a trademark of Headlands Press, Inc...) That may be, but I believe the *concept* was invented in 1980 by Bill Basham, with the Apple ][ DOS replacement Diversi-DOS (which was the most popular of many versions to increase disk speed by about a factor of 5). I still remember discussions how copying this stuff was actually the right thing to do. Seems he's still in business as "Diversified Software Research", http://www.divtune.com/. > running AIX. The engineers (in Austin) whent on for the second generation > Risc System 6000 (the RS/6000) with AIX version 3, launched February 15 > 1990. The acronym "POWER" stands for Performance Optimized WIth Enhanced > Risc. The PowerPC was split off from the POWER architecture, and then the POWER stuff was turned into the high end above PowerPC (with system prices about a factor of ten higher as the lower bound). IBM developed a version of OS/2 2.0 for the PowerPC, but *never* marketed it - you could buy it if you knew the right number, but they never spent a single cent on advertizing - by the time it was done, IBM had given up on OS/2. Most OS/2 fans agreed that it was killed by IBM with extremely bad marketing. These days, of course Apple builds the most PowerPC machines; Motorola and IBM produce the chips. > Ummm... GEM was the Geos stuff? No. GEM, I believe, originally came from CP/M. Most popular as the windowing system of the Atari ST; given that someone did a quick-hack MS- DOS clone to support it on the 68K, it seems fairly obvious that by that time, it had already been ported to MS-DOS. (GEM-DOS is the only os I know of that was actually worse than MS-DOS.) Friends of mine (Gereon Steffens and Stefan Eissing) wrote a command-line shell and desktop replacement for the Atari that was fairly successful shareware for a while ... now how was it called? The CLI was Mupfel (German for shell is Muschel, and there was a kid's TV character who pronounced Muschel as Mupfel), and I think the desktop was Gemini. Another (Julian Reschke) wrote *the* German Atari ST book. This was a fairly prominent Atari ST area for a while, but somehow I never had one. > Using 3d accelerator cards to play MPEG video streams is only now becoming > feasable to do under X. And it SHOULD be possible to do that through a > 100baseT network, let alone gigabit, but the layering's all wrong...) One might say it's time for X12, except the installed base of X11 has become too large. MfG Kai - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Hi, On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:27:24PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer Engineering > degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think they and Queen Margaret > College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside Bell Labs. Hey! Don't forget UKC ;-) Cut my teeth on pdp11 v6 and VAXen BSD 4.1 once I got away from the dreaded EMAS. Edinbugh Multi-Access System was the pitts. > I then used SCO Xenix 286 on early Compaq 286 PC's. Companies like Chase, > Specialix and Stallion grew up as suppliers of intelligent RS-232 boards. As > a result of all these Xenix machines, Wyse sold a hell of a lot of WY50 > terminals. Great days. The business was so incestuous. We seemed to swap engineers on a regular basis. Hacking drivers without kernel source and documentation that always seemed at least a release behind. Still keep a WY60 manual on my book shelf and always regret losing the VT100 one. > Who remembers terminals from Lear Siegler and Beehive. All this was before > networking came about. Then the Chase Iolan to connect these same Wyse > terminals to the SCO box but through one bit of co-ax instead of multi-core > cables. Also you could get 100m away from your SCO box with co-ax. And the trouble we had explaining to customers that they had to buy a separate SCO TCP/IP networking package just to hook up the IOLAN. -- Bob Dunlop [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.xyzzy.clara.co.uk - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Beehive -- there's a name I haven't heard in a long time! The ones I remember had dual floppy drives and ran CP/M. I last saw one in about 1985. Wayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 06/25/2001 12:11:01 PM To: William T Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Eric W. Biederman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alan Chandler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (bcc: Wayne Brown/Corporate/Altec) Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. Hi, I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer Engineering degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think they and Queen Margaret College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside Bell Labs. If anyone knows where Patrick O'Callaghan is now (ask him). Another Unix like OS was Cromemco Cromix running on bank switched Z80 S-100 kit.(later 68000). I then used SCO Xenix 286 on early Compaq 286 PC's. Companies like Chase, Specialix and Stallion grew up as suppliers of intelligent RS-232 boards. As a result of all these Xenix machines, Wyse sold a hell of a lot of WY50 terminals. Who remembers terminals from Lear Siegler and Beehive. All this was before networking came about. Then the Chase Iolan to connect these same Wyse terminals to the SCO box but through one bit of co-ax instead of multi-core cables. Also you could get 100m away from your SCO box with co-ax. -- Andrew Smith in Edinburgh - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Hi, If you're really keen on old mags and manuals I'll go up to attic and look around. I know there are old SCO Xenix & TCP/IP, as well as Byte and Dr Dobbs On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Andrew Smith in Edinburgh > Sorry, but I'm hanging on to my old computer manuals. The AIX manuals in > particular have sentimemtal value for me. > > OTOH, I have quite a few old computer magazines (from the 80's) like Byte, > Infoworld, etc. I've been intending to get rid of them for some time now, but > hated just to throw them away. They're in storage in a neighboring state right > now, but my wife probably will be driving there in the next couple of weeks to > pick up a few things. If you're interested, she could bring back the magazines > and I can tell you exactly what I have. You're welcome to them if you want > them. > > Wayne > > > > > Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 06/24/2001 09:32:43 AM > > Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: Wayne Brown/Corporate/Altec@Altec, John Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. > > > > On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first > > exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those > > weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... > > > > Wayne > > Ooh! Old manuals! > > Would you be willing to part with them? > > I am collecting old manuals, and old computing magazines. I even pay for > postage, with a bit of warning that they're coming... > > Rob > > > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > > -- - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Hi, I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer Engineering degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think they and Queen Margaret College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside Bell Labs. If anyone knows where Patrick O'Callaghan is now (ask him). Another Unix like OS was Cromemco Cromix running on bank switched Z80 S-100 kit.(later 68000). I then used SCO Xenix 286 on early Compaq 286 PC's. Companies like Chase, Specialix and Stallion grew up as suppliers of intelligent RS-232 boards. As a result of all these Xenix machines, Wyse sold a hell of a lot of WY50 terminals. Who remembers terminals from Lear Siegler and Beehive. All this was before networking came about. Then the Chase Iolan to connect these same Wyse terminals to the SCO box but through one bit of co-ax instead of multi-core cables. Also you could get 100m away from your SCO box with co-ax. -- Andrew Smith in Edinburgh On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, William T Wilson wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rob Landley wrote: > > > I know the geos had nothing to do with digital, it started as a > > windowing GUI for the commodore 64, if you can believe that... > > I've actually got a copy, but it's for the Apple // :} > > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rob Landley wrote: > On Saturday 23 June 2001 23:07, Mike Castle wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 09:41:29PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first > > > exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those > > > weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... > > > > We always ran AOS on RT's. Actually, the server was the only RT, the rest > > were some other model that was basically a PS/2 (286) that booted DOS, then > > booted the other same chip that the RT used that was on a daughter card. > > > > AOS was basically IBM's version of BSD. Academic Operating System. > > Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX - > Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I believe...) > > A big thing I'm trying to show in my book is that Unix has been, for almost > thirty years, the standard against which everything else was compared. Even > when it wasn't what people were directly using it's what the techies were > thinking about when they designed their other stuff. (That and the Xerox > Parc work...) > > Let's see, the real earthquakes in the computing world (off the top of my > head) are: 1937 claude shannon A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits," 1948 claude shannon A mathematical theory of information. without those you're kind in trouble on the computing front... > MIT: project whirlwind (which got computing off of vacuum tubes, spawned DEC, > and Minsky's hacker lab. Gurus too numerous to mention.) > > Bell Labs: (the transistor, and 20 years later Unix. Gurus ken thompson, > dennis ritchie, the three transistor guys, ). > > DARPA: (Arpanet (BBN), funded project MAC at MIT, and Multics which brought > the MIT stuff to bell labs.) > > Xerox Parc (WIMP interface, WYSIWYG word processing/printing/desktop > publishing, object oriented programming, > > The integrated circuit/microchip (Texas Instruments' manufacturing > innovation, which led to the Intel 4004, which eventually led to the Altair, > which led to the personal computer. Moore's Law would probably be the theme > here...) > > The whole free software thing (Berkeley in the 70's to early 80's, Stallman > and the FSF taking over from there. And Andrew Tanenbaum's Minix, which > spawned Linux...) > > Huh, I'd have to mention IBM (forget the PC, how about the winchester > drive?), and of course the AT breakup (a negative earthquake, but big > anyway, sort of leading to the commercialization of the software side of > things, although Gates was trying that already. AT just removed a lot of > the roadblocks by shattering the opposition for a while.) > > Alright, I need to sit down and make an outline and a timeline. I admit > this... (Collecting the data is the easy part. ORGANIZING this fermenting > heap of disconnected facts and observations is the hard part...) > > > mrc > > Rob > > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > -- -- Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Academic User Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E -- It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of arms. Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of the right, 1843. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rob Landley wrote: On Saturday 23 June 2001 23:07, Mike Castle wrote: On Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 09:41:29PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... We always ran AOS on RT's. Actually, the server was the only RT, the rest were some other model that was basically a PS/2 (286) that booted DOS, then booted the other same chip that the RT used that was on a daughter card. AOS was basically IBM's version of BSD. Academic Operating System. Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX - Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I believe...) A big thing I'm trying to show in my book is that Unix has been, for almost thirty years, the standard against which everything else was compared. Even when it wasn't what people were directly using it's what the techies were thinking about when they designed their other stuff. (That and the Xerox Parc work...) Let's see, the real earthquakes in the computing world (off the top of my head) are: 1937 claude shannon A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits, 1948 claude shannon A mathematical theory of information. without those you're kind in trouble on the computing front... MIT: project whirlwind (which got computing off of vacuum tubes, spawned DEC, and Minsky's hacker lab. Gurus too numerous to mention.) Bell Labs: (the transistor, and 20 years later Unix. Gurus ken thompson, dennis ritchie, the three transistor guys, ). DARPA: (Arpanet (BBN), funded project MAC at MIT, and Multics which brought the MIT stuff to bell labs.) Xerox Parc (WIMP interface, WYSIWYG word processing/printing/desktop publishing, object oriented programming, The integrated circuit/microchip (Texas Instruments' manufacturing innovation, which led to the Intel 4004, which eventually led to the Altair, which led to the personal computer. Moore's Law would probably be the theme here...) The whole free software thing (Berkeley in the 70's to early 80's, Stallman and the FSF taking over from there. And Andrew Tanenbaum's Minix, which spawned Linux...) Huh, I'd have to mention IBM (forget the PC, how about the winchester drive?), and of course the ATT breakup (a negative earthquake, but big anyway, sort of leading to the commercialization of the software side of things, although Gates was trying that already. ATT just removed a lot of the roadblocks by shattering the opposition for a while.) Alright, I need to sit down and make an outline and a timeline. I admit this... (Collecting the data is the easy part. ORGANIZING this fermenting heap of disconnected facts and observations is the hard part...) mrc Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ -- -- Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Academic User Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E -- It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of arms. Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of the right, 1843. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Hi, If you're really keen on old mags and manuals I'll go up to attic and look around. I know there are old SCO Xenix TCP/IP, as well as Byte and Dr Dobbs On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Andrew Smith in Edinburgh Sorry, but I'm hanging on to my old computer manuals. The AIX manuals in particular have sentimemtal value for me. OTOH, I have quite a few old computer magazines (from the 80's) like Byte, Infoworld, etc. I've been intending to get rid of them for some time now, but hated just to throw them away. They're in storage in a neighboring state right now, but my wife probably will be driving there in the next couple of weeks to pick up a few things. If you're interested, she could bring back the magazines and I can tell you exactly what I have. You're welcome to them if you want them. Wayne Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 06/24/2001 09:32:43 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wayne Brown/Corporate/Altec@Altec, John Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... Wayne Ooh! Old manuals! Would you be willing to part with them? I am collecting old manuals, and old computing magazines. I even pay for postage, with a bit of warning that they're coming... Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ -- - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Hi, I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer Engineering degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think they and Queen Margaret College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside Bell Labs. If anyone knows where Patrick O'Callaghan is now (ask him). Another Unix like OS was Cromemco Cromix running on bank switched Z80 S-100 kit.(later 68000). I then used SCO Xenix 286 on early Compaq 286 PC's. Companies like Chase, Specialix and Stallion grew up as suppliers of intelligent RS-232 boards. As a result of all these Xenix machines, Wyse sold a hell of a lot of WY50 terminals. Who remembers terminals from Lear Siegler and Beehive. All this was before networking came about. Then the Chase Iolan to connect these same Wyse terminals to the SCO box but through one bit of co-ax instead of multi-core cables. Also you could get 100m away from your SCO box with co-ax. -- Andrew Smith in Edinburgh On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, William T Wilson wrote: On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rob Landley wrote: I know the geos had nothing to do with digital, it started as a windowing GUI for the commodore 64, if you can believe that... I've actually got a copy, but it's for the Apple // :} - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Beehive -- there's a name I haven't heard in a long time! The ones I remember had dual floppy drives and ran CP/M. I last saw one in about 1985. Wayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 06/25/2001 12:11:01 PM To: William T Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED], Eric W. Biederman [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alan Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (bcc: Wayne Brown/Corporate/Altec) Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. Hi, I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer Engineering degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think they and Queen Margaret College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside Bell Labs. If anyone knows where Patrick O'Callaghan is now (ask him). Another Unix like OS was Cromemco Cromix running on bank switched Z80 S-100 kit.(later 68000). I then used SCO Xenix 286 on early Compaq 286 PC's. Companies like Chase, Specialix and Stallion grew up as suppliers of intelligent RS-232 boards. As a result of all these Xenix machines, Wyse sold a hell of a lot of WY50 terminals. Who remembers terminals from Lear Siegler and Beehive. All this was before networking came about. Then the Chase Iolan to connect these same Wyse terminals to the SCO box but through one bit of co-ax instead of multi-core cables. Also you could get 100m away from your SCO box with co-ax. -- Andrew Smith in Edinburgh - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Hi, On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:27:24PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I first used Unix on a PDP11/44 whilst studying for my Computer Engineering degree at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. I think they and Queen Margaret College, London were the first folk running Unix version 6 outside Bell Labs. Hey! Don't forget UKC ;-) Cut my teeth on pdp11 v6 and VAXen BSD 4.1 once I got away from the dreaded EMAS. Edinbugh Multi-Access System was the pitts. I then used SCO Xenix 286 on early Compaq 286 PC's. Companies like Chase, Specialix and Stallion grew up as suppliers of intelligent RS-232 boards. As a result of all these Xenix machines, Wyse sold a hell of a lot of WY50 terminals. Great days. The business was so incestuous. We seemed to swap engineers on a regular basis. Hacking drivers without kernel source and documentation that always seemed at least a release behind. Still keep a WY60 manual on my book shelf and always regret losing the VT100 one. Who remembers terminals from Lear Siegler and Beehive. All this was before networking came about. Then the Chase Iolan to connect these same Wyse terminals to the SCO box but through one bit of co-ax instead of multi-core cables. Also you could get 100m away from your SCO box with co-ax. And the trouble we had explaining to customers that they had to buy a separate SCO TCP/IP networking package just to hook up the IOLAN. -- Bob Dunlop [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.xyzzy.clara.co.uk - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Landley) wrote on 23.06.01 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: on April 2, 1987. (models 50, 60, and 80.) The SAA/SNA push also extended through the System/370 and AS400 stuff too. (I think 370's the mainframe and AS400 is the minicomputer, but I'd have to look it up. One of them (AS400?) had a database built into the OS. Interestingly, this is where SQL originated (my notes say SQL came from the System/370 but I have to double-check that, I thought the AS400 was the one with the built in database?). The AS/400 is still going strong. It's a virtual machine based on a relational database (among other things), mostly programmed in COBOL (I think the C compiler has sizeof(void*) == 16 or something like that, so you can put a database position in that pointer), it doesn't know the difference between disk and memory (memory is *really* only a cache), and these days it's usually running on PowerPC hardware. ISTR there's a gcc port for the AS/400. Oh, and it does have normal BSD Sockets. These days, it's often sold as a web server. Main customer base seems to be medium large businesses and banks. Lotus-Intel-Microsoft Expanded Memory Specification), and DOSShell which conformed to the SAA graphical user interface guidelines. Nope, the text user interface guidelines, a related but not the same beast. That's where F1 == Help is from, by the way. In fact, the user interface part of SAA was (is?) called CUA. And many IBM text mode interfaces more or less follow it, including OS/400 (the os of the AS/400). Once upon a time, I had the specs for CUA. The PS/2 model 70/80 (desktop/tower versions of same thing) were IBM's first 386 based PC boxes, which came with either DOS 3.3, DOS 4.0, OS/2 (1.0), or AIX. The first 386 PCs where not from IBM, by the way. Was it Compaq? AIX was NOT fully SAA/SNA compliant, AFAICT, nothing ever was fully SAA compliant, though some systems were more compliant than others. Hmmm... Notes on the history of shareware (pc-write/bob wallace/quiicksoft, pc-file/pc-calc/jim button/buttonware, pc-talk/andrew flugelman, apparently the chronological order is andrew-jim-bob, and bob came up with the name shareware because freeware was a trademark of Headlands Press, Inc...) That may be, but I believe the *concept* was invented in 1980 by Bill Basham, with the Apple ][ DOS replacement Diversi-DOS (which was the most popular of many versions to increase disk speed by about a factor of 5). I still remember discussions how copying this stuff was actually the right thing to do. Seems he's still in business as Diversified Software Research, http://www.divtune.com/. running AIX. The engineers (in Austin) whent on for the second generation Risc System 6000 (the RS/6000) with AIX version 3, launched February 15 1990. The acronym POWER stands for Performance Optimized WIth Enhanced Risc. The PowerPC was split off from the POWER architecture, and then the POWER stuff was turned into the high end above PowerPC (with system prices about a factor of ten higher as the lower bound). IBM developed a version of OS/2 2.0 for the PowerPC, but *never* marketed it - you could buy it if you knew the right number, but they never spent a single cent on advertizing - by the time it was done, IBM had given up on OS/2. Most OS/2 fans agreed that it was killed by IBM with extremely bad marketing. These days, of course Apple builds the most PowerPC machines; Motorola and IBM produce the chips. Ummm... GEM was the Geos stuff? No. GEM, I believe, originally came from CP/M. Most popular as the windowing system of the Atari ST; given that someone did a quick-hack MS- DOS clone to support it on the 68K, it seems fairly obvious that by that time, it had already been ported to MS-DOS. (GEM-DOS is the only os I know of that was actually worse than MS-DOS.) Friends of mine (Gereon Steffens and Stefan Eissing) wrote a command-line shell and desktop replacement for the Atari that was fairly successful shareware for a while ... now how was it called? The CLI was Mupfel (German for shell is Muschel, and there was a kid's TV character who pronounced Muschel as Mupfel), and I think the desktop was Gemini. Another (Julian Reschke) wrote *the* German Atari ST book. This was a fairly prominent Atari ST area for a while, but somehow I never had one. Using 3d accelerator cards to play MPEG video streams is only now becoming feasable to do under X. And it SHOULD be possible to do that through a 100baseT network, let alone gigabit, but the layering's all wrong...) One might say it's time for X12, except the installed base of X11 has become too large. MfG Kai - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Monday 25 June 2001 11:13, you wrote: 1937 claude shannon A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits, 1948 claude shannon A mathematical theory of information. without those you're kind in trouble on the computing front... Yeah, I know I've bumped into that name (and probably taken notes) somewhere. Hmmm... Might be from Where wizards stay up late, or might have been an article linked from slashdot... (I don't THINK it was mentioned in Hackers... Rodents, where was the reference... Crystal fire? That's mostly hardware. Accidental Empries? Doesn't sound right... Can't have been Fire in the valley because I haven't read that yet, it's still sitting on the bookshelf. Not soul of a new machine, that's post-digital Equipment Corporation...) I THINK that's in the set of notes that's on the box that's not hooked up right now... (Shortage of monitors at home.) This was the dude who decided to apply a binary and boolean approach to electronic computation, right? I KNOW I've read some stuff about him... late last year? Now I remember. Slashdot linked to his obituary: http://www.bell-labs.com/news/2001/february/26/1.html Rob The list for this discussion is: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Landley) wrote on 24.06.01 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX - Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I believe...) http://www.google.com/search?q=%22%2ba/ux%22 Usually a good idea. Also, you probably want to look at RFC 2235. MfG Kai - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Monday 25 June 2001 13:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, If you're really keen on old mags and manuals I'll go up to attic and look around. I know there are old SCO Xenix TCP/IP, as well as Byte and Dr Dobbs Ooh! Yes! Very much so. Thanks, Rob The mailing list for this discussion is: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 10:17:09AM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: On Monday 25 June 2001 11:13, you wrote: 1937 claude shannon A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits, 1948 claude shannon A mathematical theory of information. without those you're kind in trouble on the computing front... [snip] This was the dude who decided to apply a binary and boolean approach to electronic computation, right? I KNOW I've read some stuff about him... late last year? Yes, but the latter paper was the real milestone. This was the guy who actually defined what information *is*, and found out the upper limits of communication rates on a given channel. This was the guy who laid the fundaments of the information theory. Without information theory no compression, reliable transmission, reliable storage, crypthography, etc. Erik [who works in an information theory group] -- J.A.K. (Erik) Mouw, Information and Communication Theory Group, Department of Electrical Engineering, Faculty of Information Technology and Systems, Delft University of Technology, PO BOX 5031, 2600 GA Delft, The Netherlands Phone: +31-15-2783635 Fax: +31-15-2781843 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www-ict.its.tudelft.nl/~erik/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Hi again, some old brain-cells got excited with the good-ol-days and other names have surfaced like Superbrain,Sirius and Apricot.Sirius was Victor in the USA. If you go done the so-called IBM compatible route then the nearly compatible nightmares will arise and haunt you, your lucky if the scars have faded!! I learnt my computing on a PDP8/E with papertape punch/reader, RALF, Fortran II, then later 2.4Mb removable cartridges (RK05 I think). toggling in the bootstrap improved your concentration. Much later you could get a single chip(?) version of this in a wee knee sized box. One summer job was working on a PDP15 analog computer alongside an 11/20 with DECTAPE, trying to compute missile firing angles. [A simple version of Pres Bush's starwars shield]. -- Andrew Smith in Edinburgh,Scotland On 25 Jun 2001, Kai Henningsen wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Landley) wrote on 24.06.01 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX - Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I believe...) http://www.google.com/search?q=%22%2ba/ux%22 Usually a good idea. Also, you probably want to look at RFC 2235. MfG Kai - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
/ GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. / / Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. / / / / Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt never / / tried its gui.) / Actually I believe GEM predates DR-DOS, and except for being made by the same company I don't think they were ever related. Eric Well I think I remember that DR-DOS was the name that Caldera gave to the Digital Research OS, previously known as GEMDOS, when then bought the company. GEMDOS was the official OS under the GEM Gui, but GEM was also able to run with MS-DOS and TOS (the Atari OS). Geoworks / Geos isn't a Digital Research product, but has been developped by guys who ran away from Digital when it has been bought by Novell... Some guys told me that they worked with Geos and that it was really closed with the internal GEM spirit Regards. Jocelyn. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sunday 24 June 2001 22:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Sorry, but I'm hanging on to my old computer manuals. The AIX manuals in > particular have sentimemtal value for me. Entirely undersandable. Would you be willing to xerox any "introduction" or "about" sections? > OTOH, I have quite a few old computer magazines (from the 80's) like Byte, > Infoworld, etc. I've been intending to get rid of them for some time now, > but hated just to throw them away. They're in storage in a neighboring > state right now, but my wife probably will be driving there in the next > couple of weeks to pick up a few things. If you're interested, she could > bring back the magazines and I can tell you exactly what I have. You're > welcome to them if you want them. Sure. Let me know what you have and I'll tell you what I don't have... > Wayne Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
[OT] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 12:20:40AM +0200, Daniel Phillips wrote: > On Sunday 24 June 2001 12:36, Rob Landley wrote: > > On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: > > > GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. > > > Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. > > > > Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt > > never tried its gui.) > > GEM had its moment of glory when Xerox used it for the gui of Ventura > Publisher. GEM (a slight variation) was also providing GUI on Atari ST. At that time it was heavily beating pants off from anything M$ was able to cobble together on nominally much faster machines. Michal - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: > > Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Ummm... GEM was the Geos stuff? (Yeah I remember it, I haven't > > > researched it yet though...) > > > > GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. > > Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. > > Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt never > tried its gui.) Actually I believe GEM predates DR-DOS, and except for being made by the same company I don't think they were ever related. Eric - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Sorry, but I'm hanging on to my old computer manuals. The AIX manuals in particular have sentimemtal value for me. OTOH, I have quite a few old computer magazines (from the 80's) like Byte, Infoworld, etc. I've been intending to get rid of them for some time now, but hated just to throw them away. They're in storage in a neighboring state right now, but my wife probably will be driving there in the next couple of weeks to pick up a few things. If you're interested, she could bring back the magazines and I can tell you exactly what I have. You're welcome to them if you want them. Wayne Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 06/24/2001 09:32:43 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wayne Brown/Corporate/Altec@Altec, John Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first > exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those > weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... > > Wayne Ooh! Old manuals! Would you be willing to part with them? I am collecting old manuals, and old computing magazines. I even pay for postage, with a bit of warning that they're coming... Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix - Now there's a mailing list for this discussion.
On Sunday 24 June 2001 18:41, Chris Meadors wrote: > Okay, I brushed on GEOS, Microsoft, Xenix, and even Linux. So I'm as on > topic as the rest of this thread. I just have never told my story on l-k, > and this seemed a good place to put a little of it in. :) > > -Chris I just created a mailing list for this discussion attached to one of my existing sourceforge projects. It's [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is sort of an abuse of sourceforge, but then again the project I attached it to is to put together a Linux convention in Austin in 2003 and we'll probably have at least one panel on computer history, and most likely a BOF too, so it's SORT of on topic. :) To subscribe, apparently you go here: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist (I've cc'd the people who've emailed me about this topic so far, but haven't subscribed anybody. If you're interested, you have to do it yourself.) Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sunday 24 June 2001 21:45, Jeff Dike wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: > > Licklidder wasn't just a bigwig behind arpanet, he also kicked off > > project mac at MIT. > > You're right, but you could at least spell his name right - J. C. R. > Licklider. > > Jeff (who was his last undergraduate thesis supervisee at MIT) What can I say, I'm bad with names? This is why I'm so careful to write them down accurately in my notebook, which is at home. (I have some stuff typed into a text file on my laptop, but it's easier to drag out a notebook and jot something down then to wait 30 seconds for my dell monstrosity's bios to boot up, open a window, cd to the approprite directory, edit a text file, then shut everything down again. I should probably get a palm pilot one of these days... Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rob Landley wrote: > I know the geos had nothing to do with digital, it started as a > windowing GUI for the commodore 64, if you can believe that... I've actually got a copy, but it's for the Apple // :} - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rob Landley wrote: > I know the geos had nothing to do with digital, it started as a windowing GUI > for the commodore 64, if you can believe that... Not only can I belive it, but I was going to bring it up the first time GEOS was mentioned. Having only used Macs (in school) for file operations (I had loaded games off a TSR-80 datasette). I couldn't follow copying/deleting/renaming files by typing commands when my family finally got me a C64. So I relied heavily on GEOS. I even got one of those touch pads to move the cursor around the screen. When my dad finally got a PC in 1991 it had MS-DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1 on it. I didn't like Windows too much, but still found DOS awkward (still using Macs in school). I started using dosshell a lot for file operations. But when I saw an ad for GEOS in a computer mag. I was so happy. I ended up using that for a while. But more and more programs required Windows, and that made me mad. There was one book that totally changed my life. I can't remember the correct title, but it was something to the effect of Secrets to the DOS Gurus. After reading that book, I fell in love with the command line interface. Everything started making sense. Somewhere along the line, I think 1994 I started working for the Maryland state government at a Healt Department. They were running Xenix (SCO, the 2 names were interchanged a lot) on a 386. A few of the "important" people had serial lines run to their Win 3.1 PCs where they'd use Telix to run the database programs on the Xenix box. As I watched people work on in Xenix I recognized a lot of the commands I had picked up using the Delphi online service. I had a neighbor that showed me some stuff I could do if I chose the Exit to Shell option. In 1995 still working for the Health Department I got to go to my first trade show, FOSE. I met and heavily impressed a lot of booth workers. One such booth was Microsoft. I was invited to participate in their beta program for the upcoming Windows 95 (I was one of the "lucky" people who didn't have to pay for their betas). I used the Win95 betas for a while. But something happened that year. I got a Linux Unleashed book from SAMS. It included a copy of Slackware. I installed that along side my Win95, and when I saw how fast Doom loaded I was in love. I vowed that on August 24, 1995 I would delete Windows from my machine and never use it again. Well I can't say that I have held complete faithful to that vow, but I have had Linux on my machine ever since then. Now my computer is Windows free and has been for a year and a half. Okay, I brushed on GEOS, Microsoft, Xenix, and even Linux. So I'm as on topic as the rest of this thread. I just have never told my story on l-k, and this seemed a good place to put a little of it in. :) -Chris -- Two penguins were walking on an iceberg. The first penguin said to the second, "you look like you are wearing a tuxedo." The second penguin said, "I might be..." --David Lynch, Twin Peaks - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
[OT] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sunday 24 June 2001 12:36, Rob Landley wrote: > On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: > > GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. > > Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. > > Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt > never tried its gui.) GEM had its moment of glory when Xerox used it for the gui of Ventura Publisher. -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: > Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Ummm... GEM was the Geos stuff? (Yeah I remember it, I haven't > > researched it yet though...) > > GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. > Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt never tried its gui.) I know the geos had nothing to do with digital, it started as a windowing GUI for the commodore 64, if you can believe that... > It's been a long time since I looked but they both run fine under > dosemu... I don't suppose you've got reference to literature or some such? I'd love to work this into my huge obnoxious data tree I'm building... Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first > exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those > weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... > > Wayne Ooh! Old manuals! Would you be willing to part with them? I am collecting old manuals, and old computing magazines. I even pay for postage, with a bit of warning that they're coming... Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 23:07, Mike Castle wrote: > On Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 09:41:29PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first > > exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those > > weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... > > We always ran AOS on RT's. Actually, the server was the only RT, the rest > were some other model that was basically a PS/2 (286) that booted DOS, then > booted the other same chip that the RT used that was on a daughter card. > > AOS was basically IBM's version of BSD. Academic Operating System. Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX - Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I believe...) A big thing I'm trying to show in my book is that Unix has been, for almost thirty years, the standard against which everything else was compared. Even when it wasn't what people were directly using it's what the techies were thinking about when they designed their other stuff. (That and the Xerox Parc work...) Let's see, the real earthquakes in the computing world (off the top of my head) are: MIT: project whirlwind (which got computing off of vacuum tubes, spawned DEC, and Minsky's hacker lab. Gurus too numerous to mention.) Bell Labs: (the transistor, and 20 years later Unix. Gurus ken thompson, dennis ritchie, the three transistor guys, ). DARPA: (Arpanet (BBN), funded project MAC at MIT, and Multics which brought the MIT stuff to bell labs.) Xerox Parc (WIMP interface, WYSIWYG word processing/printing/desktop publishing, object oriented programming, The integrated circuit/microchip (Texas Instruments' manufacturing innovation, which led to the Intel 4004, which eventually led to the Altair, which led to the personal computer. Moore's Law would probably be the theme here...) The whole free software thing (Berkeley in the 70's to early 80's, Stallman and the FSF taking over from there. And Andrew Tanenbaum's Minix, which spawned Linux...) Huh, I'd have to mention IBM (forget the PC, how about the winchester drive?), and of course the AT breakup (a negative earthquake, but big anyway, sort of leading to the commercialization of the software side of things, although Gates was trying that already. AT just removed a lot of the roadblocks by shattering the opposition for a while.) Alright, I need to sit down and make an outline and a timeline. I admit this... (Collecting the data is the easy part. ORGANIZING this fermenting heap of disconnected facts and observations is the hard part...) > mrc Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 20:49, John Adams wrote: > On Saturday 23 June 2001 10:07, Rob Landley wrote: > > Here's what I'm looking for: > > > > AIX was first introduced for the IBM RT/PC in 1986, which came out of the > > early RISC research. It was ported to PS/2 and S/370 by SAA, and was > > based on unix SVR2. (The book didn't specify whether the original > > version or the version ported to SAA was based on SVR2, I'm guessing both > > were.) > > You are partially correct. AIX (Advanced Interactive eXecutive) was built > by the Boston office of Interactive Systems under contract to IBM. We had > a maximum of 17 people in the effort which shipped on the RT in January > 1986. Ah. I got the above out of a book in the UT library. (I have the name written down in my notebook... Um, possibly "IBM PS/2, a business perspective" by Jim Hoskins, or more likely "IBM RISC 6000, a business perspective" also by Jim Hoskins. I have no idea who Jim Hoskins is.) Obviously It's better to have somebody who was actually there. Mind if I bug you offline about this? (Or better yet, convince you to join the mailing list I'll be creating this afternoon...) > Prior to that time, Interactive Systems had produced a port of System III > running on the PC/XT called PC/IX which was sold via IBM. I used PC/IX to > produce the software only floating point code in the first version of AIX. Cool. I know there were several nebulous versions of unix available for the PC. (I don't know when coherent was introduced but it was around in 89... And Xenix was always sort of floating around... Considering that IBM also had access to Xenix (if it wanted it), that's at least three versions of Unix IBM could have put on the PC. What do you want to bet no two of them ran the same binaries? :) > johna Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 20:13, Michael Alan Dorman wrote: > Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > That would be the X version of emacs. And there's the explanation > > for the split between GNU and X emacs: it got forked and the > > closed-source version had a vew years of divergent development > > before opening back up, by which point it was very different to > > reconcile the two code bases. > > No, sorry, wrong, for at least a couple of reasons reasons: I've had this pointed out to me by about five people now. Apparently there's more to emacs than I thought... (Considering its kitchen sink icon, this should come as a suprise to no one...) > I refer you to http://www.jwz.org/doc/emacs-timeline.html for > documentation---JWZ was Mr. Lucid Emacs for quite a time. Thanks for the link. I've also been pointed to xemacs.org. Have to check out both next time I plug this laptop in to the net. (And I apparently need to set up a mailing list on this, since the number of people asking me to do so has now hit double digits...) I'll post a thing here when I do that so we can move at least most of this discussion off linux-kernel. > In 1987, there are any number of things that it could have been---I'd > guess either Unipress Emacs or perhaps Gosling Emacs. I sort of know about gosling's version. (It's mentioned in Stallman's history of emacs on gnu.org...) Interesting how the same people keep popping up as you move from topic to topic. (Licklidder wasn't just a bigwig behind arpanet, he also kicked off project mac at MIT. Doug McIllroy who was one of the half-dozen figures behind the unix launch at bell labs came to BTL after working on project whirlwind at Lincoln Labs (I.E. MIT.) And of course Ken Olsen, hotshot at whirlwind behind core memory, creator of the memory test computer that (when donated to marvin minsky's computing lab) virtually created the whole "Hacker" phenomenon, whose wrote a paper as a graduate student suggesting the use of transistors in computers which convinced IBM to build the first fully transistorized computer (I -THINK-, timeline still a bit fuzzy there to claim "first", may just have been first commercially shipping one), and then of course went off to found Digital after tx-0... Hmmm... I should probably corner Alan Cox at some event and ask him about his Amiga days. (And I DID track down Commodore guru Jim Butterfield last year, he was living in Canada at the time. Just got back into computing after years with cataracts obstructing his vision, apparently...) Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 20:13, Michael Alan Dorman wrote: Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be the X version of emacs. And there's the explanation for the split between GNU and X emacs: it got forked and the closed-source version had a vew years of divergent development before opening back up, by which point it was very different to reconcile the two code bases. No, sorry, wrong, for at least a couple of reasons reasons: I've had this pointed out to me by about five people now. Apparently there's more to emacs than I thought... (Considering its kitchen sink icon, this should come as a suprise to no one...) I refer you to http://www.jwz.org/doc/emacs-timeline.html for documentation---JWZ was Mr. Lucid Emacs for quite a time. Thanks for the link. I've also been pointed to xemacs.org. Have to check out both next time I plug this laptop in to the net. (And I apparently need to set up a mailing list on this, since the number of people asking me to do so has now hit double digits...) I'll post a thing here when I do that so we can move at least most of this discussion off linux-kernel. In 1987, there are any number of things that it could have been---I'd guess either Unipress Emacs or perhaps Gosling Emacs. I sort of know about gosling's version. (It's mentioned in Stallman's history of emacs on gnu.org...) Interesting how the same people keep popping up as you move from topic to topic. (Licklidder wasn't just a bigwig behind arpanet, he also kicked off project mac at MIT. Doug McIllroy who was one of the half-dozen figures behind the unix launch at bell labs came to BTL after working on project whirlwind at Lincoln Labs (I.E. MIT.) And of course Ken Olsen, hotshot at whirlwind behind core memory, creator of the memory test computer that (when donated to marvin minsky's computing lab) virtually created the whole Hacker phenomenon, whose wrote a paper as a graduate student suggesting the use of transistors in computers which convinced IBM to build the first fully transistorized computer (I -THINK-, timeline still a bit fuzzy there to claim first, may just have been first commercially shipping one), and then of course went off to found Digital after tx-0... Hmmm... I should probably corner Alan Cox at some event and ask him about his Amiga days. (And I DID track down Commodore guru Jim Butterfield last year, he was living in Canada at the time. Just got back into computing after years with cataracts obstructing his vision, apparently...) Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 23:07, Mike Castle wrote: On Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 09:41:29PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... We always ran AOS on RT's. Actually, the server was the only RT, the rest were some other model that was basically a PS/2 (286) that booted DOS, then booted the other same chip that the RT used that was on a daughter card. AOS was basically IBM's version of BSD. Academic Operating System. Now if somebody here could just point me to a decent reference on A/UX - Apple's mid-80's version of Unix (for the early macintosh, I believe...) A big thing I'm trying to show in my book is that Unix has been, for almost thirty years, the standard against which everything else was compared. Even when it wasn't what people were directly using it's what the techies were thinking about when they designed their other stuff. (That and the Xerox Parc work...) Let's see, the real earthquakes in the computing world (off the top of my head) are: MIT: project whirlwind (which got computing off of vacuum tubes, spawned DEC, and Minsky's hacker lab. Gurus too numerous to mention.) Bell Labs: (the transistor, and 20 years later Unix. Gurus ken thompson, dennis ritchie, the three transistor guys, ). DARPA: (Arpanet (BBN), funded project MAC at MIT, and Multics which brought the MIT stuff to bell labs.) Xerox Parc (WIMP interface, WYSIWYG word processing/printing/desktop publishing, object oriented programming, The integrated circuit/microchip (Texas Instruments' manufacturing innovation, which led to the Intel 4004, which eventually led to the Altair, which led to the personal computer. Moore's Law would probably be the theme here...) The whole free software thing (Berkeley in the 70's to early 80's, Stallman and the FSF taking over from there. And Andrew Tanenbaum's Minix, which spawned Linux...) Huh, I'd have to mention IBM (forget the PC, how about the winchester drive?), and of course the ATT breakup (a negative earthquake, but big anyway, sort of leading to the commercialization of the software side of things, although Gates was trying that already. ATT just removed a lot of the roadblocks by shattering the opposition for a while.) Alright, I need to sit down and make an outline and a timeline. I admit this... (Collecting the data is the easy part. ORGANIZING this fermenting heap of disconnected facts and observations is the hard part...) mrc Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 20:49, John Adams wrote: On Saturday 23 June 2001 10:07, Rob Landley wrote: Here's what I'm looking for: AIX was first introduced for the IBM RT/PC in 1986, which came out of the early RISC research. It was ported to PS/2 and S/370 by SAA, and was based on unix SVR2. (The book didn't specify whether the original version or the version ported to SAA was based on SVR2, I'm guessing both were.) You are partially correct. AIX (Advanced Interactive eXecutive) was built by the Boston office of Interactive Systems under contract to IBM. We had a maximum of 17 people in the effort which shipped on the RT in January 1986. Ah. I got the above out of a book in the UT library. (I have the name written down in my notebook... Um, possibly IBM PS/2, a business perspective by Jim Hoskins, or more likely IBM RISC 6000, a business perspective also by Jim Hoskins. I have no idea who Jim Hoskins is.) Obviously It's better to have somebody who was actually there. Mind if I bug you offline about this? (Or better yet, convince you to join the mailing list I'll be creating this afternoon...) Prior to that time, Interactive Systems had produced a port of System III running on the PC/XT called PC/IX which was sold via IBM. I used PC/IX to produce the software only floating point code in the first version of AIX. Cool. I know there were several nebulous versions of unix available for the PC. (I don't know when coherent was introduced but it was around in 89... And Xenix was always sort of floating around... Considering that IBM also had access to Xenix (if it wanted it), that's at least three versions of Unix IBM could have put on the PC. What do you want to bet no two of them ran the same binaries? :) johna Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... Wayne Ooh! Old manuals! Would you be willing to part with them? I am collecting old manuals, and old computing magazines. I even pay for postage, with a bit of warning that they're coming... Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ummm... GEM was the Geos stuff? (Yeah I remember it, I haven't researched it yet though...) GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt never tried its gui.) I know the geos had nothing to do with digital, it started as a windowing GUI for the commodore 64, if you can believe that... It's been a long time since I looked but they both run fine under dosemu... I don't suppose you've got reference to literature or some such? I'd love to work this into my huge obnoxious data tree I'm building... Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
[OT] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sunday 24 June 2001 12:36, Rob Landley wrote: On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt never tried its gui.) GEM had its moment of glory when Xerox used it for the gui of Ventura Publisher. -- Daniel - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rob Landley wrote: I know the geos had nothing to do with digital, it started as a windowing GUI for the commodore 64, if you can believe that... Not only can I belive it, but I was going to bring it up the first time GEOS was mentioned. Having only used Macs (in school) for file operations (I had loaded games off a TSR-80 datasette). I couldn't follow copying/deleting/renaming files by typing commands when my family finally got me a C64. So I relied heavily on GEOS. I even got one of those touch pads to move the cursor around the screen. When my dad finally got a PC in 1991 it had MS-DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1 on it. I didn't like Windows too much, but still found DOS awkward (still using Macs in school). I started using dosshell a lot for file operations. But when I saw an ad for GEOS in a computer mag. I was so happy. I ended up using that for a while. But more and more programs required Windows, and that made me mad. There was one book that totally changed my life. I can't remember the correct title, but it was something to the effect of Secrets to the DOS Gurus. After reading that book, I fell in love with the command line interface. Everything started making sense. Somewhere along the line, I think 1994 I started working for the Maryland state government at a Healt Department. They were running Xenix (SCO, the 2 names were interchanged a lot) on a 386. A few of the important people had serial lines run to their Win 3.1 PCs where they'd use Telix to run the database programs on the Xenix box. As I watched people work on in Xenix I recognized a lot of the commands I had picked up using the Delphi online service. I had a neighbor that showed me some stuff I could do if I chose the Exit to Shell option. In 1995 still working for the Health Department I got to go to my first trade show, FOSE. I met and heavily impressed a lot of booth workers. One such booth was Microsoft. I was invited to participate in their beta program for the upcoming Windows 95 (I was one of the lucky people who didn't have to pay for their betas). I used the Win95 betas for a while. But something happened that year. I got a Linux Unleashed book from SAMS. It included a copy of Slackware. I installed that along side my Win95, and when I saw how fast Doom loaded I was in love. I vowed that on August 24, 1995 I would delete Windows from my machine and never use it again. Well I can't say that I have held complete faithful to that vow, but I have had Linux on my machine ever since then. Now my computer is Windows free and has been for a year and a half. Okay, I brushed on GEOS, Microsoft, Xenix, and even Linux. So I'm as on topic as the rest of this thread. I just have never told my story on l-k, and this seemed a good place to put a little of it in. :) -Chris -- Two penguins were walking on an iceberg. The first penguin said to the second, you look like you are wearing a tuxedo. The second penguin said, I might be... --David Lynch, Twin Peaks - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001, Rob Landley wrote: I know the geos had nothing to do with digital, it started as a windowing GUI for the commodore 64, if you can believe that... I've actually got a copy, but it's for the Apple // :} - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sunday 24 June 2001 21:45, Jeff Dike wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Licklidder wasn't just a bigwig behind arpanet, he also kicked off project mac at MIT. You're right, but you could at least spell his name right - J. C. R. Licklider. Jeff (who was his last undergraduate thesis supervisee at MIT) What can I say, I'm bad with names? This is why I'm so careful to write them down accurately in my notebook, which is at home. (I have some stuff typed into a text file on my laptop, but it's easier to drag out a notebook and jot something down then to wait 30 seconds for my dell monstrosity's bios to boot up, open a window, cd to the approprite directory, edit a text file, then shut everything down again. I should probably get a palm pilot one of these days... Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix - Now there's a mailing list for this discussion.
On Sunday 24 June 2001 18:41, Chris Meadors wrote: Okay, I brushed on GEOS, Microsoft, Xenix, and even Linux. So I'm as on topic as the rest of this thread. I just have never told my story on l-k, and this seemed a good place to put a little of it in. :) -Chris I just created a mailing list for this discussion attached to one of my existing sourceforge projects. It's [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is sort of an abuse of sourceforge, but then again the project I attached it to is to put together a Linux convention in Austin in 2003 and we'll probably have at least one panel on computer history, and most likely a BOF too, so it's SORT of on topic. :) To subscribe, apparently you go here: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/penguicon-comphist (I've cc'd the people who've emailed me about this topic so far, but haven't subscribed anybody. If you're interested, you have to do it yourself.) Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Sorry, but I'm hanging on to my old computer manuals. The AIX manuals in particular have sentimemtal value for me. OTOH, I have quite a few old computer magazines (from the 80's) like Byte, Infoworld, etc. I've been intending to get rid of them for some time now, but hated just to throw them away. They're in storage in a neighboring state right now, but my wife probably will be driving there in the next couple of weeks to pick up a few things. If you're interested, she could bring back the magazines and I can tell you exactly what I have. You're welcome to them if you want them. Wayne Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 06/24/2001 09:32:43 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wayne Brown/Corporate/Altec@Altec, John Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... Wayne Ooh! Old manuals! Would you be willing to part with them? I am collecting old manuals, and old computing magazines. I even pay for postage, with a bit of warning that they're coming... Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ummm... GEM was the Geos stuff? (Yeah I remember it, I haven't researched it yet though...) GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt never tried its gui.) Actually I believe GEM predates DR-DOS, and except for being made by the same company I don't think they were ever related. Eric - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
[OT] Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 12:20:40AM +0200, Daniel Phillips wrote: On Sunday 24 June 2001 12:36, Rob Landley wrote: On Saturday 23 June 2001 22:47, Eric W. Biederman wrote: GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. Ah, the DR-DOS answer to dosshell/windows. Cool. (I used Dr. Dos byt never tried its gui.) GEM had its moment of glory when Xerox used it for the gui of Ventura Publisher. GEM (a slight variation) was also providing GUI on Atari ST. At that time it was heavily beating pants off from anything M$ was able to cobble together on nominally much faster machines. Michal - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sunday 24 June 2001 22:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, but I'm hanging on to my old computer manuals. The AIX manuals in particular have sentimemtal value for me. Entirely undersandable. Would you be willing to xerox any introduction or about sections? OTOH, I have quite a few old computer magazines (from the 80's) like Byte, Infoworld, etc. I've been intending to get rid of them for some time now, but hated just to throw them away. They're in storage in a neighboring state right now, but my wife probably will be driving there in the next couple of weeks to pick up a few things. If you're interested, she could bring back the magazines and I can tell you exactly what I have. You're welcome to them if you want them. Sure. Let me know what you have and I'll tell you what I don't have... Wayne Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 09:41:29PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first exposure to
> Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those weird-sized RT AIX
> manuals around somewhere...
We always ran AOS on RT's. Actually, the server was the only RT, the rest
were some other model that was basically a PS/2 (286) that booted DOS, then
booted the other same chip that the RT used that was on a daughter card.
AOS was basically IBM's version of BSD. Academic Operating System.
mrc
--
Mike Castle [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.netcom.com/~dalgoda/
We are all of us living in the shadow of Manhattan. -- Watchmen
fatal ("You are in a maze of twisty compiler features, all different"); -- gcc
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Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Ah, yes, the RT/PC. That brings back some fond memories. My first exposure to Unix was with AIX on the RT. I still have some of those weird-sized RT AIX manuals around somewhere... Wayne John Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 06/23/2001 07:49:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:(bcc: Wayne Brown/Corporate/Altec) Subject: Re: Microsoft and Xenix. On Saturday 23 June 2001 10:07, Rob Landley wrote: > Here's what I'm looking for: > > AIX was first introduced for the IBM RT/PC in 1986, which came out of the > early RISC research. It was ported to PS/2 and S/370 by SAA, and was > based on unix SVR2. (The book didn't specify whether the original > version or the version ported to SAA was based on SVR2, I'm guessing both > were.) You are partially correct. AIX (Advanced Interactive eXecutive) was built by the Boston office of Interactive Systems under contract to IBM. We had a maximum of 17 people in the effort which shipped on the RT in January 1986. Prior to that time, Interactive Systems had produced a port of System III running on the PC/XT called PC/IX which was sold via IBM. I used PC/IX to produce the software only floating point code in the first version of AIX. johna - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: Microsoft and Xenix.
I have a complete set of the "XENIX System V" manuals and diskettes (User's Guide, User's Reference, Runtime Operating System, and Development System) for the AT Personal Computer 6300. The slipcases have the AT "Death Star" logo on the spines, and the manuals have separate copyrights listed for AT (1985), Microsoft (1983, 1984, 1985), and the Santa Cruz Operation (1984, 1985). I never had a 6300, but I did try booting the install diskette once on a Leading Edge Model D (PC/XT clone) and to my surprise it booted OK. Wayne "Mike Jagdis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 06/23/2001 12:57:37 PM To: "Alan Chandler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: "Rob Landley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (bcc: Wayne Brown/Corporate/Altec) Subject: RE: Microsoft and Xenix. > I hope the following adds a more direct perspective on this, as I > was a user at the time. I was _almost_ at university :-). However I do have a first edition of the IBM Xenix Software Development Guide from december 1984. It has '84 IBM copyright and '83 MS copyright. The SCO stuff I have goes back to '83 - MS copyrights on it go back to '81 but that's probably just the compiler and DOS compatibility. Basically Xenix was the first MS/IBM attempt at a "real OS" for the PC. MS realised that multiuser/multitasking was less important than colour graphics for PC owners and decided to pull out of the Xenix business. IBM licensed it under their name to keep their desktop computer concept alive while the Xenix team emerged from the shake out to form SCO. Mike -- Chief Network Architect Mobile:+44 7780 608 368 Kokua Communications Ltd Office: +44 20 7292 1680 52-53 Conduit Street Fax: +44 20 7292 1681 London W1S 2YX - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Ummm... GEM was the Geos stuff? (Yeah I remember it, I haven't researched > it yet though...) GEM was a gui from Digital Research I believe. Geoworks/Geos was a seperate entity. It's been a long time since I looked but they both run fine under dosemu... Eric - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 10:07, Rob Landley wrote: > Here's what I'm looking for: > > AIX was first introduced for the IBM RT/PC in 1986, which came out of the > early RISC research. It was ported to PS/2 and S/370 by SAA, and was > based on unix SVR2. (The book didn't specify whether the original > version or the version ported to SAA was based on SVR2, I'm guessing both > were.) You are partially correct. AIX (Advanced Interactive eXecutive) was built by the Boston office of Interactive Systems under contract to IBM. We had a maximum of 17 people in the effort which shipped on the RT in January 1986. Prior to that time, Interactive Systems had produced a port of System III running on the PC/XT called PC/IX which was sold via IBM. I used PC/IX to produce the software only floating point code in the first version of AIX. johna - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > That would be the X version of emacs. And there's the explanation > for the split between GNU and X emacs: it got forked and the > closed-source version had a vew years of divergent development > before opening back up, by which point it was very different to > reconcile the two code bases. No, sorry, wrong, for at least a couple of reasons reasons: 1) XEmacs, being constrained to be under the same license (GPL) as its progenitor, GNU Emacs, could never have been closed-source. 2) Lucid Emacs, the version of Emacs that becamse XEmacs, was not started until ca. 1992 I refer you to http://www.jwz.org/doc/emacs-timeline.html for documentation---JWZ was Mr. Lucid Emacs for quite a time. In 1987, there are any number of things that it could have been---I'd guess either Unipress Emacs or perhaps Gosling Emacs. Mike. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Friday 22 June 2001 18:41, Alan Chandler wrote: > I am not subscribed to the list, but I scan the archives and saw the > following. Please cc e-mail me in followups. I've had several requests to start a mailing list on this, actually... Might do so in a bit... > I was working (and still am) for a UK computer systems integrator called > Logica. One of our departments sold and supported Xenix (as distributor > for Microsoft? - all the manuals had Logica on the covers although there > was at least some mention of Microsoft inside) in the UK. At the time it I don't suppose you have any of those manuals still lying around? > It was more like (can't remember exactly when) 1985/1986 that Xenix got > ported to the IBM PC. Sure. Before that the PC didn't have enough Ram. Dos 2.0 was preparing the dos user base for the day when the PC -would- have enough ram. Stuff Paul Allen set in motion while he was in charge of the technical side of MS still had some momentum when he left. Initially, Microsoft's partnership with SCO was more along the lines of outsourcing development and partnering with people who knew Unix. But without Allen rooting for it, Xenix gradually stopped being strategic. Gates allowed his company to be led around by the nose by IBM, and sucked into the whole SAA/SNA thing (which DOS was the bottom tier of along with a bunch of IBM big iron, and which OS/2 emerged from as an upgrade path bringing IBM mainframe technology to higher-end PCs.) IBM had a unix, AIX, which had more or less emerged from the early RISC research (the 701 project? Lemme grab my notebook...) Ok, SAA/SNA was "Systems Application Architecture" and "Systems Network Architecture", which was launched coinciding with the big PS/2 announcement on April 2, 1987. (models 50, 60, and 80.) The SAA/SNA push also extended through the System/370 and AS400 stuff too. (I think 370's the mainframe and AS400 is the minicomputer, but I'd have to look it up. One of them (AS400?) had a database built into the OS. Interestingly, this is where SQL originated (my notes say SQL came from the System/370 but I have to double-check that, I thought the AS400 was the one with the built in database?). In either case, it was first ported to the PC as part of SAA. We also got the acronym "API" from IBM about this time.) Dos 4.0 was new, it added 723 meg disks, EMS bundled into the OS rather than an add-on (the Lotus-Intel-Microsoft Expanded Memory Specification), and "DOSShell" which conformed to the SAA graphical user interface guidelines. (Think an extremely primitive version of midnight commander.) The PS/2 model 70/80 (desktop/tower versions of same thing) were IBM's first 386 based PC boxes, which came with either DOS 3.3, DOS 4.0, OS/2 (1.0), or AIX. AIX was NOT fully SAA/SNA compliant, since Unix had its own standards that conflicted with IBM's. Either they'd have a non-standard unix, or a non-IBM os. (They kind of wound up with both, actually.) The IBM customers who insisted on Unix wanted it to comply with Unix standards, and the result is that AIX was an outsider in the big IBM cross-platform push of the 80's, and was basically sidelined within IBM as a result. It was its own little world. skip skip skip skip (notes about boca's early days... The PC was launched in August 1981, list of specs, xt, at, specs for PS/2 models 25/30, 50, 70/80, and the "pc convertable" which is a REALLY ugly laptop.) Here's what I'm looking for: AIX was first introduced for the IBM RT/PC in 1986, which came out of the early RISC research. It was ported to PS/2 and S/370 by SAA, and was based on unix SVR2. (The book didn't specify whether the original version or the version ported to SAA was based on SVR2, I'm guessing both were.) AIX was "not fully compliant" with SAA due to established and conflicting unix standards it had to be complant with, and was treated as a second class citizen by IBM because of this. It was still fairly hosed according to the rest of the unix world, but IBM mostly bent standards rather than breaking them. Hmmm... Notes on the history of shareware (pc-write/bob wallace/quiicksoft, pc-file/pc-calc/jim button/buttonware, pc-talk/andrew flugelman, apparently the chronological order is andrew-jim-bob, and bob came up with the name "shareware" because "freeware" was a trademark of Headlands Press, Inc...) Notes on the IBM Risc System 6000 launch out of a book by Jim Hoskins (which is where micro-channel came from, and also had one of the first cd-rom drives, scsi based, 380 ms access time, 150k/second, with a caddy.) Notes on the specifications of the 8080 and 8085 processors, plus the Z80 Sorry, that risc thing was the 801 project led by John Cocke, named after the building it was in and started in 1975. Ah, here's the rest of it: The IBM Person Computer RT (Risc Technology) was launched in January 1986 running AIX. The engineers (in Austin) whent on
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 13:57, Mike Jagdis wrote: > > I hope the following adds a more direct perspective on this, as I > > was a user at the time. > > I was _almost_ at university :-). However I do have a first edition > of the IBM Xenix Software Development Guide from december 1984. It has > '84 IBM copyright and '83 MS copyright. The SCO stuff I have goes back > to '83 - MS copyrights on it go back to '81 but that's probably just > the compiler and DOS compatibility. Ooh! Ooh! I don't suppose I could borrow that? (Hmm... Driving to london isn't quite something my car's up to. For one thing, there's no gas stations in the middle of the atlantic.) The copyright dates back to when they shipped it. I believe Microsoft's license with AT was signed in 1979 and actual work started in 1980, but that's in a different notebook... > Basically Xenix was the first MS/IBM attempt at a "real OS" for the > PC. MS realised that multiuser/multitasking was less important than > colour graphics for PC owners and decided to pull out of the Xenix > business. IBM licensed it under their name to keep their desktop computer > concept alive while the Xenix team emerged from the shake out to form SCO. Don't make the mistake of treating IBM -OR- Microsoft as a monolithic entity. IBM had a dozen departments constantly at war with each other: Unix had its pockets of supporters at IBM, some of whom did AIX. At Microsoft, Paul Allen was the bix Unix fan. Gates was indifferent to it, and was far more interested in the Xerox Parc perspective. Both Bell Labs and Xerox Parc totally revolutionized computing. Bell Labs worked from the inside out, how the machine works and what programmers can get it to do. Multitasking, hierarchical filesystem, block and character device drivers, streams, pipes, etc. Xerox Parc worked from the outside in, how the user interacts with the computer and what they experience. Wysiwyg printing, Windows and Icons and Mice in a GUI. (Xerox also did object oriented programming, and networking which was related to both the user and system level. Then again Unix spun out of porting a flight simulator to the PDP 7. It's not QUITE that black and white...) In any case, gates was on the Xerox side and Allen was on the BTL side. When Allen left microsoft, Xenix followed soon after. (First SCO was "helping", then over the next few years the whole thing was gradually dumped on them and the umbilical severed.) Remember, Xenix hadn't made much of a splash in the PC world before 1984 because the PC simply didn't have the power to run it. YOU try doing anything useful with Unix in -LESS- than 512k of ram. That doesn't mean it wasn't having a big impact behind the scenes at Microsoft. (Similarly, windowing interfaces were Jobs's passion for 4 or 5 years before the macintosh launch, whether or not Apple's revenues or customers even knew about it.) Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: Microsoft and Xenix.
> I hope the following adds a more direct perspective on this, as I > was a user at the time. I was _almost_ at university :-). However I do have a first edition of the IBM Xenix Software Development Guide from december 1984. It has '84 IBM copyright and '83 MS copyright. The SCO stuff I have goes back to '83 - MS copyrights on it go back to '81 but that's probably just the compiler and DOS compatibility. Basically Xenix was the first MS/IBM attempt at a "real OS" for the PC. MS realised that multiuser/multitasking was less important than colour graphics for PC owners and decided to pull out of the Xenix business. IBM licensed it under their name to keep their desktop computer concept alive while the Xenix team emerged from the shake out to form SCO. Mike -- Chief Network Architect Mobile: +44 7780 608 368 Kokua Communications LtdOffice: +44 20 7292 1680 52-53 Conduit StreetFax:+44 20 7292 1681 London W1S 2YX - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: Microsoft and Xenix.
I hope the following adds a more direct perspective on this, as I was a user at the time. I was _almost_ at university :-). However I do have a first edition of the IBM Xenix Software Development Guide from december 1984. It has '84 IBM copyright and '83 MS copyright. The SCO stuff I have goes back to '83 - MS copyrights on it go back to '81 but that's probably just the compiler and DOS compatibility. Basically Xenix was the first MS/IBM attempt at a real OS for the PC. MS realised that multiuser/multitasking was less important than colour graphics for PC owners and decided to pull out of the Xenix business. IBM licensed it under their name to keep their desktop computer concept alive while the Xenix team emerged from the shake out to form SCO. Mike -- Chief Network Architect Mobile: +44 7780 608 368 Kokua Communications LtdOffice: +44 20 7292 1680 52-53 Conduit StreetFax:+44 20 7292 1681 London W1S 2YX - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Saturday 23 June 2001 13:57, Mike Jagdis wrote: I hope the following adds a more direct perspective on this, as I was a user at the time. I was _almost_ at university :-). However I do have a first edition of the IBM Xenix Software Development Guide from december 1984. It has '84 IBM copyright and '83 MS copyright. The SCO stuff I have goes back to '83 - MS copyrights on it go back to '81 but that's probably just the compiler and DOS compatibility. Ooh! Ooh! I don't suppose I could borrow that? (Hmm... Driving to london isn't quite something my car's up to. For one thing, there's no gas stations in the middle of the atlantic.) The copyright dates back to when they shipped it. I believe Microsoft's license with ATT was signed in 1979 and actual work started in 1980, but that's in a different notebook... Basically Xenix was the first MS/IBM attempt at a real OS for the PC. MS realised that multiuser/multitasking was less important than colour graphics for PC owners and decided to pull out of the Xenix business. IBM licensed it under their name to keep their desktop computer concept alive while the Xenix team emerged from the shake out to form SCO. Don't make the mistake of treating IBM -OR- Microsoft as a monolithic entity. IBM had a dozen departments constantly at war with each other: Unix had its pockets of supporters at IBM, some of whom did AIX. At Microsoft, Paul Allen was the bix Unix fan. Gates was indifferent to it, and was far more interested in the Xerox Parc perspective. Both Bell Labs and Xerox Parc totally revolutionized computing. Bell Labs worked from the inside out, how the machine works and what programmers can get it to do. Multitasking, hierarchical filesystem, block and character device drivers, streams, pipes, etc. Xerox Parc worked from the outside in, how the user interacts with the computer and what they experience. Wysiwyg printing, Windows and Icons and Mice in a GUI. (Xerox also did object oriented programming, and networking which was related to both the user and system level. Then again Unix spun out of porting a flight simulator to the PDP 7. It's not QUITE that black and white...) In any case, gates was on the Xerox side and Allen was on the BTL side. When Allen left microsoft, Xenix followed soon after. (First SCO was helping, then over the next few years the whole thing was gradually dumped on them and the umbilical severed.) Remember, Xenix hadn't made much of a splash in the PC world before 1984 because the PC simply didn't have the power to run it. YOU try doing anything useful with Unix in -LESS- than 512k of ram. That doesn't mean it wasn't having a big impact behind the scenes at Microsoft. (Similarly, windowing interfaces were Jobs's passion for 4 or 5 years before the macintosh launch, whether or not Apple's revenues or customers even knew about it.) Rob - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: Microsoft and Xenix.
On Friday 22 June 2001 18:41, Alan Chandler wrote: I am not subscribed to the list, but I scan the archives and saw the following. Please cc e-mail me in followups. I've had several requests to start a mailing list on this, actually... Might do so in a bit... I was working (and still am) for a UK computer systems integrator called Logica. One of our departments sold and supported Xenix (as distributor for Microsoft? - all the manuals had Logica on the covers although there was at least some mention of Microsoft inside) in the UK. At the time it I don't suppose you have any of those manuals still lying around? It was more like (can't remember exactly when) 1985/1986 that Xenix got ported to the IBM PC. Sure. Before that the PC didn't have enough Ram. Dos 2.0 was preparing the dos user base for the day when the PC -would- have enough ram. Stuff Paul Allen set in motion while he was in charge of the technical side of MS still had some momentum when he left. Initially, Microsoft's partnership with SCO was more along the lines of outsourcing development and partnering with people who knew Unix. But without Allen rooting for it, Xenix gradually stopped being strategic. Gates allowed his company to be led around by the nose by IBM, and sucked into the whole SAA/SNA thing (which DOS was the bottom tier of along with a bunch of IBM big iron, and which OS/2 emerged from as an upgrade path bringing IBM mainframe technology to higher-end PCs.) IBM had a unix, AIX, which had more or less emerged from the early RISC research (the 701 project? Lemme grab my notebook...) Ok, SAA/SNA was Systems Application Architecture and Systems Network Architecture, which was launched coinciding with the big PS/2 announcement on April 2, 1987. (models 50, 60, and 80.) The SAA/SNA push also extended through the System/370 and AS400 stuff too. (I think 370's the mainframe and AS400 is the minicomputer, but I'd have to look it up. One of them (AS400?) had a database built into the OS. Interestingly, this is where SQL originated (my notes say SQL came from the System/370 but I have to double-check that, I thought the AS400 was the one with the built in database?). In either case, it was first ported to the PC as part of SAA. We also got the acronym API from IBM about this time.) Dos 4.0 was new, it added 723 meg disks, EMS bundled into the OS rather than an add-on (the Lotus-Intel-Microsoft Expanded Memory Specification), and DOSShell which conformed to the SAA graphical user interface guidelines. (Think an extremely primitive version of midnight commander.) The PS/2 model 70/80 (desktop/tower versions of same thing) were IBM's first 386 based PC boxes, which came with either DOS 3.3, DOS 4.0, OS/2 (1.0), or AIX. AIX was NOT fully SAA/SNA compliant, since Unix had its own standards that conflicted with IBM's. Either they'd have a non-standard unix, or a non-IBM os. (They kind of wound up with both, actually.) The IBM customers who insisted on Unix wanted it to comply with Unix standards, and the result is that AIX was an outsider in the big IBM cross-platform push of the 80's, and was basically sidelined within IBM as a result. It was its own little world. skip skip skip skip (notes about boca's early days... The PC was launched in August 1981, list of specs, xt, at, specs for PS/2 models 25/30, 50, 70/80, and the pc convertable which is a REALLY ugly laptop.) Here's what I'm looking for: AIX was first introduced for the IBM RT/PC in 1986, which came out of the early RISC research. It was ported to PS/2 and S/370 by SAA, and was based on unix SVR2. (The book didn't specify whether the original version or the version ported to SAA was based on SVR2, I'm guessing both were.) AIX was not fully compliant with SAA due to established and conflicting unix standards it had to be complant with, and was treated as a second class citizen by IBM because of this. It was still fairly hosed according to the rest of the unix world, but IBM mostly bent standards rather than breaking them. Hmmm... Notes on the history of shareware (pc-write/bob wallace/quiicksoft, pc-file/pc-calc/jim button/buttonware, pc-talk/andrew flugelman, apparently the chronological order is andrew-jim-bob, and bob came up with the name shareware because freeware was a trademark of Headlands Press, Inc...) Notes on the IBM Risc System 6000 launch out of a book by Jim Hoskins (which is where micro-channel came from, and also had one of the first cd-rom drives, scsi based, 380 ms access time, 150k/second, with a caddy.) Notes on the specifications of the 8080 and 8085 processors, plus the Z80 Sorry, that risc thing was the 801 project led by John Cocke, named after the building it was in and started in 1975. Ah, here's the rest of it: The IBM Person Computer RT (Risc Technology) was launched in January 1986 running AIX. The engineers (in Austin) whent on for the second generation
